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Kevin23
04-04-2010, 04:50 PM
Moderator's Note

Three threads devoted to South Africa have today been merged and the thread renamed (ends).


BBC reports that the former leader of the far-right AWB Eugene Terreblanche, was found dead after a dispute with workers over unpaid wages on his farm.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8602347.stm

Fuchs
04-04-2010, 05:09 PM
I think that's unrelated to military affairs and small wars.

jcustis
04-04-2010, 05:23 PM
An ill-fated military intervention into the Bophuthatswana homeland in 1994 ended with three AWB men being killed in front of TV cameras in a PR disaster that diminished further the seriousness with which Mr Terreblanche's movement was taken.

Nope. It's absolutely related, and can stay.

davidbfpo
04-04-2010, 09:39 PM
The BBC's latest comment:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8602512.stm


South African President Jacob Zuma has called for calm after white supremacist leader Eugene Terreblanche was killed. Mr Zuma told the nation he was shocked by the news and urged unity. He sent condolences to the Terreblanche family. Police have arrested two farm workers who they say beat Mr Terreblanche to death in a dispute over wages. Mr Terreblanche's far-right movement is urging its members to be calm. It says his murder has political overtones, a claim the governing ANC rejects.

A wider BBC obituary:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3797797.stmwhich ends with this:

...he was still as much a master of the grand gesture as he had been throughout his ineffectual political career.

There maybe angry Afrikaner farmers and some sympathy amongst the fringes of the now inactive political right, but is this a "spark" for trouble? I doubt it, partly due to the long history of the political right, their inability to make inroads amongst the mainly urban white population and revenge aside what do they offer.

The government would be wiser to look again at the number of farmers being murdered, although I'm not sure if the murders continue at the pace of a few years ago. Long time since I have looked at these issues in depth.

davidbfpo
04-05-2010, 08:24 PM
After the murder there clearly are those who wish to cool down the situation, see this BBC report:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8603706.stm


The party of murdered South African white supremacist Eugene Terreblanche has withdrawn a threat to take revenge for his death....Visits to the Terreblanche farm by senior ANC figures...

Note the two suspects for the murder remained at the scene and were arrested. Hardly, no maybe not the actions of persons radicalised by hatred and those in the ANC who have strong views on white farmers.

davidbfpo
04-10-2010, 07:27 PM
A dour, pessimistic article on Julius Malema, an ANC "youth" leader, who has just been in Zimbabwe visiting President Mugabe:
If you ask me, Malema is the point-man for a powerful ANC faction whose motive is greed and whose chosen weapon is racial demagoguery of the most primitive kind.

The trouble is that this card trumps all others. Our underclass is huge, poorly educated and desperately poor. They know what happened in Zimbabwe, but even so, the prospect of loot is irresistible, and that's Malema's bait. Mandela gave them free houses. Mbeki gave them welfare grants, leading to a situation where five million taxpayers support 13 million indigents, with the total rising far more rapidly than our ability to pay. Now Malema and the faceless vultures behind him are offering them the rest. They are playing the death card, the Ace of Spades.

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/7572374/The-man-playing-South-Africas-death-card.html

carl
04-10-2010, 09:30 PM
Some of the saddest people I ever met were white South Africans with children. They are fearful, almost terrified, of what is coming and are desperate to get their children out, but mostly can't.

There is comment attached to the story about Julius Malema saying that the difference between Zim and South Africa is the white South Africans have no place to go. If that continues to be true, who knows what will happen.

We used to tell each other the critical point will be when Mandela dies. I guess we'll see.

davidbfpo
05-10-2010, 01:08 AM
The other day there was a report:
South African police have foiled an attempt by right-wing extremists to bomb black townships ahead of the World Cup, according to the co[/URL]untry's police minister.

Link:[URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/africaandindianocean/southafrica/7686944/South-African-police-foil-extremist-attempt-to-bomb-black-townships.html"]

Today this:
Dozens of people have been injured in South Africa's coastal city of Durban on Sunday after an explosion in a train carriage, police said.

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/7702405/Dozens-injured-in-South-African-train-explosion.html

Waiting for developments and hoping the two are stories are not linked.

Kevin23
05-10-2010, 04:02 AM
The other day there was a report:

Link:[URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/africaandindianocean/southafrica/7686944/South-African-police-foil-extremist-attempt-to-bomb-black-townships.html"]

Today this:

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/7702405/Dozens-injured-in-South-African-train-explosion.html

Waiting for developments and hoping the two are stories are not linked.

Let's hope so,

However from what I take it, the South African far-right has been fairly inactive and quiet about things even after ET's death.

JMA
05-10-2010, 08:14 AM
Let's hope so,

However from what I take it, the South African far-right has been fairly inactive and quiet about things even after ET's death.

The soccer (football) World Cup starts in South Africa in a month or so. There is a real concern that some hothead will do something at one of the games that will start a chain reaction that will have far reaching effects for the nation.

Let me tell you its a worry out here.

Kevin23
05-10-2010, 08:28 PM
The soccer (football) World Cup starts in South Africa in a month or so. There is a real concern that some hothead will do something at one of the games that will start a chain reaction that will have far reaching effects for the nation.

Let me tell you its a worry out here.

Of course it hasn't only been groups from within South Africa to worry about, Al-Qaeda has threatened to make an attempt on the games a couple of times.

AdamG
05-28-2010, 02:21 PM
The soccer (football) World Cup starts in South Africa in a month or so. There is a real concern that some hothead will do something at one of the games that will start a chain reaction that will have far reaching effects for the nation. Let me tell you its a worry out here.

Funny you should say that...


The State Department has issued a travel alert warning U.S. citizens in South Africa to be aware of increased terrorism risks during the World Cup, which starts June 11.

"Large scale public events like the World Cup may present a wide range of attractive targets for terrorists," the alert said.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/28/u-s-issues-travel-alert-for-south-africa/

See also


CAPE TOWN – South African soldiers will be on high alert during the football World Cup, the army boss said Thursday, as the government voiced concern about violent protests during the tournament.

The military will also begin patrolling the national borders on April 1, taking over the duty from police as part of a broader security realignment meant to allow police to focus on fighting crime, Lieutenant General Solly Shoke said.

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20100325/twl-safrica-protests-security-fbl-wc2010-4bdc673.html

AdamG
06-03-2010, 02:37 PM
Some interesting cultural intel.


A weekend newspaper report, vehemently denied by the South African government, of an "80 percent chance" of a terrorist attack during the June 11-July 11 soccer spectacular suggests her confidence is not universally shared.

But in Africa, where mysticism and magic play a part in many people's lives, pronouncements from a 'sangoma' such as Nsukwini can carry as much weight as those from governments, especially when it comes to the murky world of security agencies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6513YV20100602?feedType=RSS&feedName=oddlyEnoughNews&rpc=22&sp=true

Related


(Reuters) - South African security officials on Sunday denied claims in a Sunday newspaper that the country faces a high risk of a terrorist attack during the World Cup it is hosting in less than two weeks.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64T1WL20100530

AdamG
07-12-2010, 01:54 AM
PRETORIA - Four South Africans were arrested in the capital Pretoria for trying to sell a low-radiation industrial nuclear device, police said Saturday, insisting the incident had no link the World Cup.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle08.asp?xfile=data/international/2010/July/international_July368.xml&section=international

AdamG
06-27-2012, 02:46 AM
A raw Op-Ed on the state of some South African units.
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=25935%3Asandf-combat-readiness&catid=32%3Amilitary-art-a-science&Itemid=112

The author has served in various positions with the SANDF for 24 years
http://www.whoswhosa.co.za/peter-dovey-24751

davidbfpo
03-25-2013, 05:43 PM
In what is clearly a terrible mess, with yet another violent coup d'etat in the Central African Republic (CAR), with a small SANDF training mission being attacked for nine hours:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21923624


...officials are now hard-pressed to explain the role the South African soldiers were expected to play in the event of an attack.

There are still many unanswered questions but some have accused the government of poor judgement, saying the incident has not only caused embarrassment for the army, but for South Africa as a key player in peace missions in Africa.

No reports that the French contingent had such problems.

Morgan
03-26-2013, 07:04 AM
13 KIA is bad but it could've been worse. I couldn't open the defenseweb link by AdamG but I think it might be the article I read last summer written by a former SADF officer about the current state of junior officer training in SANDF........new LTs not understanding basic field order preparation, minimal understanding of C2 via radio, etc.....

If that is what caused, or played a part in, the recent deaths, then yes, SANDF in CAR has a combat readiness problem. But if it had more to with their ROE or poorly defined mission, then I'd look to their national leadership decision-making skills VS SANDF readiness. Any stories on what contributed to the KIAs?

KenWats
03-26-2013, 04:22 PM
Found this after quick google search:

http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/2013/03/26/soldiers-deaths-in-central-african-republic-put-zuma-in-spotlight

From the sounds of the news article, they were a fairly light force that got engaged by a much larger force. They claim 500 enemy casualties. The fighting apparently lasted 9 hours. So, I would say that it's probably more ROE/Mission/Force Structure related than soldier training or readiness- at least if the news report is any indication.

M-A Lagrange
03-27-2013, 12:48 PM
A counter point of view, despite it apparently lasted for hours and cusualties were high in the seleka ranks

SANDF: CAR rebels regretted killing of SA soldiers
Suicide mission
The Beeld reported on Tuesday that beyond the official toll of those injured, killed and missing, six special forces operators were also killed in the fighting.

The newspaper reported that the SANDF had become a target for reportedly helping Central African Republic (CAR) President Francois Boziz flee the country into the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

According to the report, top structures were warned by senior SANDF officers last week that the CAR mission amounted to "suicide".

South African Air Force aircraft were also put on standby on Monday night, though due to financial constraints the Gripens were not armed with weapons with an attack capacity.

SANDF soldiers reportedly struggled on the ground due to lack of logistics and air support.

Soldiers had to ask French parachutists for essential equipment, with only one doctor present with a backpack for medical support.http://mg.co.za/article/2013-03-26-sandf-car-rebels-regretted-killing-of-sa-soldiers

davidbfpo
03-27-2013, 03:48 PM
If you follow Ken Wats link and then go to the editorial you find the Opposition in South Africa are making serious allegations, I cite the last paragraph - with my emphasis:
As Democratic Alliance defence spokesman David Maynier said on Monday, the nature of the battle calls into question whether the president misled Parliament when he informed members of the joint standing committee on defence that the SANDF was being deployed in CAR to help with "capacity building". It now seems they were deployed to defend particular economic interests near the capital on behalf of a corrupt, authoritarian and unpopular government. The only thing to do now is to withdraw a force that probably should not have been deployed in the first place.

Link:http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/editorials/2013/03/26/editorial-sa-troops-should-leave-car

One wonders what the French think? Who I am sure are at the main airport, as is their practice.

All looks very messy for RSA. My perceptions were not helped by the SANDF general interviewed on BBC Radio 4 terminating the interview when the questions got tough.

jmm99
03-27-2013, 07:56 PM
Half a minute of video, French troops secure Central African Republic airport (http://www.reuters.com/video/2013/03/26/french-troops-secure-central-african-rep?videoId=241823838) (0:35)

Regards

Mike

TV-PressPass
04-01-2013, 09:25 PM
Must have been a hell of a time for SANDF. Did they get out? I haven't seen anything since then about them actually leaving successfully.

davidbfpo
04-02-2013, 07:25 AM
Hat tip to Zenpundit for Eeben Barlow's commentary 'Failing to Listen', which talks about the difficulties in getting intelligence accepted and touches upon what happened in the CAR:http://eebenbarlowsmilitaryandsecurityblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/failing-to-listen.html

A taster:
...not only was the overall SANDF strategy flawed but that the strategy had its foundation resting on poor intelligence – and no strategy can succeed if it is developed off assumptions and rumours.

AdamG
04-03-2013, 01:14 AM
South Africa's President Jacob Zuma has paid tribute to 13 soldiers killed in the recent rebellion in the Central African Republic (CAR). At the memorial service, he said they died in CAR's capital Bangui defending South Africa's commitment to promoting peace and stability in Africa. The soldiers were killed as rebels seized power more than a week ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-22003412


Democratic Alliance leader Helen Zille’s announcement that her party will present a motion in parliament Tuesday to demand the withdrawal of South African troops, comes amid increasingly angry debate over why the soldiers were deployed to Central African Republic at all, and suggestions they were sent to protect mining interests of South Africa’s governing African National Congress. The ANC denies it has any business in the country rich in diamonds, uranium and other resources.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/opposition-demands-withdrawal-of-south-african-troops-in-central-african-republic/2013/04/01/b0841d38-9ac4-11e2-9219-51eb8387e8f1_story.html


A South African newspaper, the Mail & Guardian, widened the division by alleging that the soldiers were sent to CAR to protect the business interests of the ruling African National Congress (ANC). The ANC has dismissed the allegations as unfounded.

"We reject any insinuation that these soldiers were sent to CAR for any reason other than in the pursuit of national interests and the interests of the African continent," President Zuma said.

http://www.dw.de/south-africa-bids-farewell-to-slain-soldiers/a-16715108

Also
http://www.theworld.org/2013/04/outrage-over-soldiers-killed-in-central-african-republic/

davidbfpo
04-04-2013, 12:18 PM
TV-PressPass asked two days ago:
Must have been a hell of a time for SANDF. Did they get out? I haven't seen anything since then about them actually leaving successfully.

This BBC report states the SANDF are to leave, although very little detail:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-22025593

Those killed had a military funeral yesterday in Pretoria and the furore over the mission remain. It is noticeable how little reporting there is from CAR, for example no footage of the SANDF or even a map showing were the clash happened, which of course might show this was not a training mission.

I suspect South Africa has had to talk to the new regime in CAR, much against its inclination, then negotiate an exit and rely on the French at the Bangui airport.

The "smoke & mirrors" aspects are covered in this:http://mg.co.za/article/2013-03-28-00-central-african-republic-is-this-what-our-soldiers-died-for and an opposition South African newspaper Mail & Guardian has extensive coverage:http://mg.co.za/report/the-battle-of-bangui

davidbfpo
04-19-2013, 01:29 PM
In a BBC report on CAR this phrase:
South Africa, which lost at least 13 troops during the rebel takeover, has said it is pulling its forces out of CAR.

This is odd, no strange.

Others are going in:
The Central African Republic's neighbours have agreed to send an extra 2,000 troops to help restore security following last month's rebel takeover.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-22197108

davidbfpo
05-08-2013, 11:06 AM
The following passage is from a Reuters article on Chad's emergence as a regional power:
In Central African Republic, Chad's decisive role in the change of government exposed South Africa's pretension of acting as a continental superpower. Pretoria had sent a contingent of some 400 troops to prop up President Francois Bozize.

Deby, who had helped Bozize seize power in a 2003 coup, had tired of Bozize's refusal to share power with the opposition which was stirring up a revolt along Chad's southern border.

The final straw came when Bozize disbanded his Chadian bodyguard and turned to South Africa for military aid. Deby ordered Chad's peacekeepers to step aside and Seleka rebel forces stormed the capital, as France made good on its promise not to intervene militarily.

South Africa's involvement ended with 13 of its soldiers killed, showing Pretoria lacked the regional knowledge and military resources to play a decisive role in Deby's backyard.

Link:http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE94707C20130508?irpc=932

davidbfpo
05-21-2013, 05:13 PM
A very odd South African report, alleging AQ had training facilities in South Africa, which became untouchable and a surveillance operation was closed:
The police’s specialised unit, Crimes Against the State (CATS) and the State Security Agency (SSA) have been monitoring the training of al-Qaeda terrorists in South Africa for several years, without taking any action. A year-long investigation by the Daily Maverick’s DE WET POTGIETER has revealed surprising inaction by police despite incriminating evidence about secret military training camps and sophisticated sniper training at three well-documented locations as well as several others across South Africa. These subversive activities have taken place at a farm near the notorious Apartheid police hit squad camp at Vlakplaas outside Pretoria, as well as a secluded farm in the mountains of the Klein Karoo.

Link:http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2013-05-13-al-qaeda-alive-and-well-in-south-africa/

Those accused have exercised the 'right of reply':http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2013-05-15-farhad-ahmed-dockrat-responds/

Just how South Africa works is a moot point, likewise some of the allegations made. The next one I'd not seen before:
The fugitive ‘white widow’ of a 7/7 London bomber was a key link between Al Qaeda terrorists in Pakistan and their fighters in East Africa, it has emerged. Muslim convert Samantha Lewthwaite, who was married to Kings Cross bomber Germaine Lindsay, spent two years working for the deadly extremist organisation in South Africa using a false name.

Link:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2323983/Now-White-Widow-connected-British-born-Al-Qaeda-bomb-maker.html?ico=home%5Eheadlines

All quite puzzling, as I am sure the USSS are - President Obama has a trip soon to South Africa.

(Added) Found an update on the political reaction from a more well-known, South African defence periodical:http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30470&catid=74&Itemid=30

davidbfpo
05-21-2013, 07:55 PM
A very different, detailed report by a long-time, respected South African military commentator; 40 pgs in an e-book:
Based on interviews with a number of the officers involved in the mission, both from HQ in Pretoria and on the ground in Bangui, South Africa’s leading military writer and a long-time correspondent for Jane’s Defence Weekly, Helmoed Heitman describes what happened in Bangui, why President Zuma sent the troops, and what lessons South Africa needs to take out of the events in the CAR. In The Battle in Bangui, Heitman tells the inside story of one of the hardest fought and deadliest operations of the SANDF’s post-apartheid history.What if everything you thought you knew about the Battle of Bangui was wrong? What if there were good reasons for the SANDF to be in the Central African Republic? What if they acquitted themselves well, with valour and resourcefulness?

Link:http://www.mampoer.co.za/helmoed-heitman/the-battle-in-bangui

Or search on Google for free access copy, where I found it on:www.4x4community.co.za/forum

A short review excerpt:
Heitman has no problems with the manner in which the South African soldiers acquitted themselves in the fighting earlier this year. “Do not blame the soldiers and junior leaders: they are doing their best and their best is quite often outstanding,” he says.

He also exonerates the generals for deploying small and/or under-armed forces.

“They can only do the best with what they have. And what they have in terms of the numbers of soldiers, the type of equipment and support capabilities is simply inadequate for the role South Africa’s government wishes to play (in Africa).

“If there is blame it must go to the politicians who starve the Defence Force financially and then expect it to work miracles,” he writes.

Link:http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30316&Itemid=141

TV-PressPass
05-22-2013, 08:43 PM
Just starting to read through and follow along on google maps.

Looks like an interesting analysis from the excerpts I've seen.

TV-PressPass
05-22-2013, 09:34 PM
The force commander now wanted to use his mobile Special Forces group to drive the enemy further back, but found that the FACA element at the position had parked a bulldozer on the bridge to block it. It took some time to find the driver and move the vehicle, but then the Special Forces began to patrol north to clear the area in front of the position.

Well that would be frustrating. I can't see the bridge being described, but everything else has been clear to follow along with.

Interesting how detailed some of the specifics are. Wonder who all Heitman interviewed?

davidbfpo
08-01-2013, 01:33 PM
From an unusual direction, the UK-based 'New Statesman' an article on the SANDF, with a sub-title:
On the face of it, life continues as normal, but behind the scenes the South African military has been cut to the point where it's doubtful it will be able to live up to its African responsibilities.

Yes the budget has shrunk, but this example alone illustrates it is far more than money:
Earlier this month it was revealed that the Air Force has no maintenance contract for the 26 Grippen fighter jets, ordered at great cost in 1999. Without maintenance they aircraft are almost useless....With six trained pilots....

Link:http://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2013/07/south-africas-military-meltdown

Curious that a mixed bag of US units are in the Eastern Cape on an exercise this week:http://www.army.mil/article/107990/U_S__Army_Africa__South_African_partners_kick_off_ Exercise_Shared_Accord_13/

davidbfpo
10-29-2013, 10:56 PM
I'd nearly forgotten this plot:
The ringleader of a white supremacist plot to assassinate Nelson Mandela and drive black people out of South Africa has been sentenced to 35 years in jail.

Former university lecturer Mike du Toit was convicted last year of treason for his leadership role in the plot, after a trial lasting nine years.

Twenty other members of his white supremacist militia Boeremag were also jailed for between five and 35 years.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24725177

carl
12-06-2013, 02:49 AM
Mandela died today.

I am curious about what people think this will mean for the RSA. Will his passing send the country down the Zimbabwe road? Did his mere existence act as a restraint on the people who might be inclined to lead it that way?

What do people think? (calling JMA. calling JMA.)

JMA
12-07-2013, 07:45 PM
Carl, due to massive corruption and world leading incidence of violent crime South Africa was already heading down that road (when Mandela was alive).

I find that fellow South Africans tend to express an opinion on the future based on wishful thinking and/or pitiful hope. The prognosis is not good.



Mandela died today.

I am curious about what people think this will mean for the RSA. Will his passing send the country down the Zimbabwe road? Did his mere existence act as a restraint on the people who might be inclined to lead it that way?

What do people think? (calling JMA. calling JMA.)

Bill Moore
12-08-2013, 02:40 AM
Mandela's radicalism often ignored by Western admirers

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/12/6/mandela-the-radical.html


As a global statesman of grace and humility, he was long courted by Western leaders drawn by his irresistible story of triumph over tyranny. Yet Mandela, who died on Dec. 5 at 95, was also a more radical and politically complex figure than has been commonly acknowledged by his admirers in the West.

No surprise the media creates enduring myths that disguise the complexity and distort the reality. The media dismisses the word "and" all too often from its narrative, yes Mandela fought oppression, and he......


"If you talk to many American liberals, they think Mandela was Martin Luther King," Ellis said. "If you say, 'No, Mandela started a guerrilla army, he was a communist, he did this, he did that,' they just don't get it. They don't know what you're talking about."

Yet even later, as South African president from 1994 to 1999, Mandela would irk his friends in the West by expressing solidarity with leaders such as Cuba's Castro and Libya's Muammar Gaddafi, as well as finding common cause with the Palestinians in their struggle for statehood.

carl
12-08-2013, 04:35 AM
Carl, due to massive corruption and world leading incidence of violent crime South Africa was already heading down that road (when Mandela was alive).

I find that fellow South Africans tend to express an opinion on the future based on wishful thinking and/or pitiful hope. The prognosis is not good.

You're right. I guess my question actually should have been will the trek down the road to Zimdom accelerate now that Mandela is dead. I guess it will, but then it may be a matter of how quick a cancer kills you; this week, next week-you're still going to die.

I saw that wishful thinking/pitiful hope when I was in RSA for a few months some years ago. A 15 year old son of an acquaintance was bothered because they changed the name of Pietersburg to Polokwane even though the town had been founded by the Boers. So he wrote a letter to Mbeki about it. It was such a sad thing to see. This poor white kid actually thought that somebody in the gov would give a dam about what he thought or why he thought it. So sad.

In view of what may happen to the RSA in the years to come, where will the people who want to leave go? When Rhodesia was no more, people could drive to the RSA I imagine. Where will they go now? What countries are open?

davidbfpo
12-08-2013, 12:18 PM
Carl asked:
In view of what may happen to the RSA in the years to come, where will the people who want to leave go? When Rhodesia was no more, people could drive to the RSA I imagine. Where will they go now? What countries are open?

"Taking the gap" in Rhodesia started long before independence as Zimbabwe in 1980, partly due to the demands of military service, having a young family, some transferable assets, personal skills and a passport that others accepted. Yes many went to South Africa, although a good number used RSA as a stepping stone.

I am aware of good numbers of ex-Rhodesians ending up in Canada, New Zealand, UK, a few in the USA and lots in Australia. There are even small numbers in Africa - farmers mainly - and around the Gulf, mainly pilots.

Whether this emigration pattern is repeated with RSA is a moot point. A few years ago there were a good number of young, white South Africans in London who had ample transferable skills. Large numbers are in Australia, especially Perth - which has a booming economy, based on mining - and now has a full-time rugby team, reflecting the changes.

Will the relatively new Portuguese community in RSA look to Brazil and the former, nearby colonies? I expect the shallow foundations of the German business community have not stood up to the new pressures.

davidbfpo
12-11-2013, 02:12 PM
Sadly the media have reported 'Fake interpreter at (Mandela) memorial 'made up his own signs' say South Africa's deaf federation. Film clip and short story:http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-12-11/fake-interpreter-at-memorial-made-up-his-own-signs/

One hopes the SA government will sack all those involved in the use of the fake interpreter.

I watched some of the memorial service on the BBC. When President Zuma and ex-president George Bush arrived in the stadium they were booed. Today it is reported SABC cut the booing of President Zuma out. Hidden away elsewhere President Robert Mugabe and President Obama are reported as being loudly cheered.

carl
12-11-2013, 05:58 PM
One hopes the SA government will sack all those involved in the use of the fake interpreter.

I'll bet the interpreter is related to somebody.


Hidden away elsewhere President Robert Mugabe and President Obama are reported as being loudly cheered.

God save the RSA. Nothing else will.

JMA
12-11-2013, 06:18 PM
Carl,

You have a good understanding of how Africa works... ;)


I'll bet the interpreter is related to somebody.

God save the RSA. Nothing else will.

davidbfpo
12-11-2013, 08:11 PM
ITN has found some previous footage:
The footage, apparently filmed in January 2012 at the ANC party's 100th anniversary, shows the man making gestures as Zuma sings to the crowd.

ANC communications manager Keith Khoza told NBC News that the interpreter had translated for party events in the past, but said that the man only “volunteered” and was not paid.

Link:http://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-12-11/anger-as-mandela-memorial-deaf-interpreter-revealed-as-fake/

carl
12-11-2013, 08:32 PM
David:

Further down in that string of ITV reports, various RSA gov authorities 'claim' they don't know who that guy was. I guess he just shows up.

The US Secret Service is going to love hearing that.

davidbfpo
12-11-2013, 08:40 PM
Carl,

For the moment this story is not going away!

Within the linked report is:
....defenders of the ANC-linked interpreter claimed that he was signing in South Africa's Zulu language.

Citing a UK academic expert on sign language:
Professor Woll dismissed such claims, allegedly made by the ANC: "The very fact that this was explained as a person signing in Zulu suggests that actually whoever employed him knew nothing about this person's abilities."

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/nelson-mandela/10511040/Zulu-sign-language-Theres-no-such-thing-expert-reacts-to-fake-Nelson-Mandela-memorial-interpreter.html

carl
12-11-2013, 09:51 PM
Anything to avoid admitting that some esteemed minister of something got scammed by his idiot nephew or his sister forced him to use the idiot nephew.

Geesh, when that guy was 'signing' he looked like a penguin at the zoo.

Firn
12-12-2013, 05:59 PM
The interpreter's reaction was certainly more spirited compared to your typical Western one:


He told the BBC that during the event, he had had a breakdown, and started hallucinating that angels were coming down into the crowd.

"I started knowing that I am not real, because it's not something possible. But believe me I saw them coming on stage.

"From that moment, it was not myself," he said, saying he had becoming concerned for the safety of people in the stadium and was "absolutely" aware that he was not signing correctly.

His employer, SA interpreters vanished (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25345627). It is interesting to note that he was employed before in some occasions by the ANC, in which 'nobody complained' about his capabilities, which is rather telling about the quality of internal processes. How he could get his security (and professional) clearing for the funeral is matter of SA state affairs so the ANC can't comment on it. Which is of course fully understandable since the two are obviously clearly distinct entities.

slapout9
12-12-2013, 07:40 PM
I just saw a report on NBC where they actually interviewed this person and he admitted he was being treated for schizophrenia and he has a history of violence.......so they let this person stand next to our President???? Like they say you just cant make this stuff up.

(Added by Moderator) Try BBC interview:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25346253

JMA
12-13-2013, 07:11 AM
Carl, I waited to see who would cut through the crap...

Simon Jenkins of the Guardian finally did:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/10/mandela-coverage-banality-of-goodness

KenWats
12-13-2013, 02:26 PM
Carl asked:
Will the relatively new Portuguese community in RSA look to Brazil and the former, nearby colonies? I expect the shallow foundations of the German business community have not stood up to the new pressures.

Interestingly, there's a fairly significant Portuguese community here in New Jersey. In most of the family owned businesses around here, you can walk in and speak Portuguese and be understood. A good chunk of the folks at the plant I work at are Portuguese immigrants too (many coming from the colonies in Africa). I wonder if that would continue?

davidbfpo
12-13-2013, 03:44 PM
Now BBC report SA police were at the fake's house yesterday to arrest him under mental health provisions, except the media got there first. Surely the government wouldn't silence him that way, that's so old style Soviet repression.

Just spotted on Twitter, so perhaps we should be wary? The faker has a record, note accused, not convicted and read the link for more:
accused of: theft (1995), house-breaking (1997), malicious damage to property (1998), rape (1998), murder, kidnapping(2003)

Link:http://www.enca.com/south-africa/interpreter

Firn
12-13-2013, 05:51 PM
One thing is certain, every way you look at the issue the SA government doesn't come out looking competent. It really goes from the hilarious to the ridicolous and further to the insane and just doesn't stop giving.

Being accused of grave crimes on several uncorrelated occasions is certainly a bad sign, even if he never was convicted. Getting a men with such a trackrecord in accusations and no track record in sign interpretation competence on the stage of the biggest SA political event of the decade right next to some of the most important men in the world is quite the sign that many screwed up their job very badly indeed.

Possibly there was a divine intervention even before the angles came flying down into the stadium...

davidbfpo
12-14-2013, 04:25 PM
Did anyone note the rather blunt military presence, with numerous Casspir APCs in the procession and otehrs parked up, as the funeral cortege reached the Eastern Cape, the third photo in the headline story 'Nelson Mandela's body arrives home':http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/africa/

AdamG
12-16-2013, 04:51 PM
Anyone else see the Saturday Night Live skit? :D

davidbfpo
05-23-2014, 10:05 AM
Something is wrong here, even more so that this involved the main SANDF infantry training base:
A South African military general has been accused of facilitating an illegal prison break from a local police station using two armoured personnel carriers and at least 120 soldiers. The general is alleged have flown into a drunken rage when he learnt that a group of his men had been arrested outside their base in the South African town of Oudtshoorn. The arrested soldiers - alleged to include at least one senior officer - had been found by police at an illegal drinking den, where they were celebrating a change of command at the training base.

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/10849812/South-Africa-general-used-troops-to-break-men-out-of-prison.html

The police negoitated a solution, yes releasing all their prisoners.

JMA
05-23-2014, 01:38 PM
Well South Africa is an African country.

Brig Gen Xolani Mankayi (the drunk who ordered the action) has refused to comment as have the authorities. Don't hold your breath for any serious action to be taken.

Here is the precedent: The general who deserted his troops when attacked in the CAR has since been decorated and promoted.


Something is wrong here, even more so that this involved the main SANDF infantry training base:

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/10849812/South-Africa-general-used-troops-to-break-men-out-of-prison.html

The police negoitated a solution, yes releasing all their prisoners.

davidbfpo
01-02-2015, 04:49 PM
An Open Democracy piece, which should be read alongside the SWJ Blog link to 'Underplayed Conflicts' and I cited the link excerpt:
South Africa, a country that has been heralded for creating one of the world’s most democratic constitutions. Conditions for many blacks there have not improved much since apartheid ended, a generation ago. Unemployment is now twenty-five per cent (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/south-africa/unemployment-rate), and has not been below twenty per cent in almost two decades. Unofficially, the number could be much higher…

Link:http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/underplayed-conflicts-of-2014

For those who watch the region the continuities in state power after apartheid's end in South Africa and independence in Zimbabwe, these developments are not a surprise. The sub-title:
The police were a symbol of the old, apartheid South Africa. Unfortunately they are becoming a symbol of the ‘new South Africa’ too.

Link:https://www.opendemocracy.net/open-security/richard-mclaverty/south-africa%E2%80%99s-parliament-and-politicisation-of-police

davidbfpo
06-29-2015, 07:21 PM
No great surprise that the SANDF faces such a crossroads when you consider the budget allocated, manpower, external and internal demands:
South Africa wants to re-establish itself militarily as an important player in Africa's peacekeeping initiatives. But it has to overcome a small budget, and its own needs to police its borders, to move it from a 'critical state of decline.'
Link:http://news.yahoo.com/once-major-continental-force-south-africas-military-crossroads-163100590.html?

Going back awhile now:
At its peak, the apartheid military had more than 100,000 active conscripts, and consumed 4.4 percent of national GDP, making it one of Africa’s largest and best trained fighting forces.

(Today) South African military spending today stands at just 1.2 percent of its GDP, an Army of more than 40,000 troops.

There is a link to an earlier report, some of the comments are interesting:http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=39017:defence-review-given-the-thumbs-up-by-parliamentary-review-committee&catid=111:sa-defence&Itemid=242

davidbfpo
08-28-2015, 09:27 PM
A bestseller in South Africa, even without any reviews and no loud criticism. Perhaps the new edition has "hit home"?

A review by Rian Malan:http://www.spectator.co.uk/books/9616262/r-w-johnson-40-odd-years-prophesying-the-end-for-south-africa/

A taster:
...Mandla Gcaba, a nephew of Jacob Zuma and according to Johnson, one of the state president’s key backers. Gcaba is a boss in the taxi business, a man whose foot soldiers defend their turf with heavy weapons. He is also linked to a police constable named S’bu Mpisane who vanished just before testifying in a murder trial that threatened to put the president’s nephew in jail. When the heat died down, S’bu came back to life, married into Zuma’s ‘Tammany machine’ and began to move up in the world. Today, still a policeman, he owns a mansion worth 94 times his annual salary and, according to Johnson, bought his wife a Rolls Royce for Christmas.

davidbfpo
09-13-2015, 11:35 AM
From a "lurker" familiar with Southern Africa, after reading Johnson's book wrote:
Devastating. Johnson is a good analyst – remember his 1977 original. If he’s only half right there are problems looming for the Beloved Country.

davidbfpo
01-15-2016, 08:46 AM
Perhaps such crimes happen regularly, this one got external press coverage; maybe with white farmers as defendants, not the victims it caught the editor's eye:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/12097574/Four-South-African-farmers-in-court-for-murder-of-two-attackers.html

davidbfpo
02-22-2016, 04:22 PM
Scathing review of South Africa's foreign policy, not only the international aspect, but at home too. Here is an example:
In exchange for its membership of the BRICS, South Africa appears to have also given China a licence to de-industrialise the country despite the fact that the EU, as a bloc, is South Africa’s major trading partner. No country has developed without a solid manufacturing sector. Instead of supporting South Africa’s manufacturing exports to Africa and protecting our market, the South African government misses no opportunity to ‘buy Chinese’, importing anything from scarfs and caps for the African National Congress to cheap consumer goods, which should be made in South Africa.

Link:https://www.issafrica.org/iss-today/selling-our-future-for-a-bric-time-to-rethink-south-africas-foreign-policy

davidbfpo
04-14-2016, 12:39 PM
Ronnie Kasrils, a former ANC leader and minister, has a bleak outlook on the future as the ANC under President Zuma face new challenges:http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2016-04-14-trainspotter-ronnie-kasrils-the-killing-game-has-already-started/? (http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2016-04-14-trainspotter-ronnie-kasrils-the-killing-game-has-already-started/?utm_source=Daily+Maverick+First+Thing&utm_campaign=2a7277e506-First_Thing_5_April4_4_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c81900545f-2a7277e506-127581117#.Vw9-mkeXAqJ)

davidbfpo
04-26-2016, 08:39 PM
The 'Rainbow Nation' is sadly and for some not unexpected becoming even more divided, not by race / ethnicity and this passage is one symptom:
Our own government’s human bean-counter-in-chief – not an agent from America but a mild-mannered specialist in population studies – told us last week that young South Africans today are less educated than their parents were twenty years ago[/URL], and we were not outraged.....increasingly unemployable...
Link to the actual comment:http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2016-04-18-the-great-reversal-stats-sa-claims-black-youth-are-less-skilled-than-their-parents/#.Vx_Qf0dPxYM (http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2016-04-18-the-great-reversal-stats-sa-claims-black-youth-are-less-skilled-than-their-parents/)

Link to the cited article:[URL]http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2016-04-25-zumas-south-africa-when-shame-means-nothing-at-all/#.Vx_Co0dPxYP

I am old enough to recall it was education that was at the root of the "Soweto Uprising", in June 1976. See:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soweto_uprising

davidbfpo
07-20-2017, 12:54 PM
A rare commentary on the SANDF, which is scathing and asks why is 80% of the budget spent on personnel (now including veterans). The one comment ends with - on all public services:
unfit, overweight, overpaid, complacent, inefficient and hopelessLink:https://theconversation.com/money-has-little-to-do-with-why-south-africas-military-is-failing-to-do-its-job-81216? (https://theconversation.com/money-has-little-to-do-with-why-south-africas-military-is-failing-to-do-its-job-81216?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=facebookbutton)

Not that the SANDF are alone, the ANC's rule increasingly looks like "snouts in the trough". See this week's BBC Newsnight report:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KSHC6UPUgA

davidbfpo
12-11-2018, 02:39 PM
A Kings War Studies podcast (42 mins) which features a South African academic expert:
Join Guy Lamb, Director of the Safety and Violence Initiative (University of Cape Town), discusses his latest research on the globally pressing issue of police militarisation and the ‘war on crime’, drawing on the experiences of South Africa.
Link:https://soundcloud.com/warstudies/event-police-militarism-and-the-war-on-crime-in-south-africa?in=warstudies/sets/events