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slapout9
08-12-2010, 03:50 AM
First article of any notoriety actually calling for a Revolution in America....:eek:


http://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/brent-budowsky/113389-revolution-in-the-air

slapout9
08-12-2010, 01:11 PM
Link to Zenpundit on possible collapse/revolution scenario written by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts former undersecretary during the Regan Administration. Scary stuff especially how it might happen:eek:


http://zenpundit.com/?p=3493

slapout9
08-12-2010, 08:54 PM
Link to article on riot in East Point,Ga. (Atlanta area)over applications for public housing assistance.

http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/08/12/4874768-order-at-ga-housing-agency-a-day-after-chaos

Pete
08-12-2010, 09:12 PM
The article in the initial post calls for the left wing of the Democratic Party to fight back more vigorously against Obama's middle-of-the-road policies. It isn't the usual call to arms from the Minuteman/Tea Party crowd.

Ken White
08-12-2010, 09:47 PM
or even warfare in general. The initial op-ed is pure political foolishness.
"Throughout the nation there is outrage in the land, revolution in the air, insurrection in the wind from the left, right and center. The political ground is shaking from gale-force winds of a national demand for powerful change in the way our corrupted and tone-deaf capital does business."Sheesh, creative writing at its campiest. Our Capital has been tone deaf all my life and until we start voting out all incumbents and get rid of political parties, it'll remain that way. Robert's polemic is dumber than a box of hammers.

On that last link, the Great East Point Riot, I'm sure the left will make a big deal out of it. Out of little or nothing; "Yet no arrests were made." (LINK) (http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/housing-crisis-reaches-full-589653.html). I lived in Atlanta for 12 years. East Point was a minor tinder box the whole time and has remained such. The various housing authorities in the Atlanta area have been and are a bed of consistent corruption. Housing authorities nationwide have problems; to be expected when dumb Congroids promise more than we can afford or deliver... :rolleyes:

The Son who's an Atlanta metro area cop has a slew of tales about political shenanigans there and in Georgia Generally. The other two, the Soldat in the northeast and the Cop on the west coast also have a bunch from their regions. So does the NC Grandson in Law. Not to mention mine from here in Floridada. The point -- Flawed politics and tone deaf politicians are not restricted to DC, not by a long shot. They just make the national news easier and provide media and pundit fodder. :mad:

The Sky is Falling, 2010 Summer Edition. Penalty of being old: it's at least the thirtieth or maybe the fortieth time that I've seen our immediate demise from internal dissent, riots, militias, etc. etc. -- and fiscal ineptitude -- predicted ...:eek:

Oh, well, I'm still making plans for my Great Grandson's arrival and setting up a College savings account for him.:cool:

Steve Blair
08-12-2010, 10:12 PM
Nor does it have anything to [do] with Small Wars or even warfare in general.

One could say that about many threads here....;) But I agree, the op-ed is pretty much speculation on par with Fallout III (http://www.gamespot.com/showcases/fallout3?tag=promo%3Btitle). Except that Fallout has better graphics...

slapout9
08-12-2010, 11:29 PM
One could say that about many threads here....;) But I agree, the op-ed is pretty much speculation on par with Fallout III (http://www.gamespot.com/showcases/fallout3?tag=promo%3Btitle). Except that Fallout has better graphics...


Thats why I posted it under "The Whole News". The parameters of the thread topics are "Post and debate the news; good,bad and ugly. News ignored by the mainstream especially welcomed here"

Steve Blair
08-13-2010, 02:08 PM
Thats why I posted it under "The Whole News". The parameters of the thread topics are "Post and debate the news; good,bad and ugly. News ignored by the mainstream especially welcomed here"

I know, slap. Not complaining...just commenting on the story.:cool:

slapout9
08-13-2010, 03:38 PM
I know, slap. Not complaining...just commenting on the story.:cool:

Wasn't really for you, it chopped off the part by ken White which was supposed to be included:confused: you know how those old folks are, nothing has changed since the first revolution:D:D he will be back I am sure.

Ken White
08-13-2010, 04:05 PM
...and not much of it for the danged better." He said, grumpily in his hoarse old voice...;)

[The fact that small 'l' liberals don't agree with small 'c' conservatives and that "the world is going to the Devil in a hand basket" being things that have not changed much at all since 1782. Amazing that we're still here...:wry:]

slapout9
08-13-2010, 04:54 PM
...and not much of it for the danged better." He said, grumpily in his hoarse old voice...;)

[The fact that small 'l' liberals don't agree with small 'c' conservatives and that "the world is going to the Devil in a hand basket" being things that have not changed much at all since 1782. Amazing that we're still here...:wry:]

I didn't know you were a liberal.

I'm a Hells Angel Republican. And so is our Republican Govenor. Click on the link below for the story and then click the video to the right to see our Govenor on a Viper motorcycle!
http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=12957209

pvebber
08-13-2010, 06:04 PM
For some interesing history on how Congress pissing off the Public is hardly new see:

The Continental congress at Princeton, by Varnum Lansing Collins(accessible at Google Books)

It recounts the cicumstances surrounding the 1783 Mutiny of the Pennsylvania Line and the resultant flight of the Continental Congress to Princton.

Such helped cement the notion of our country as a Great Republic, not a Demcracy subject to the vagueries of "mob rule".

We have the means for peaceful revolution in our hands every 2-4 years. We must simply execute it, or we get the representives we deserve.

Of course that does not mean that I would feel sorry for the current Congreff Affembled if history were to repeat itself...

I also hardly think the collapse of civilaization as we know it is nigh. The nightmare scenarios require that in effect the result of the world agrees to fiddle while we burn and see their own financial ruin. The US would not collapse without taking the rest of the world down with it. In the era of Globalism, we are "too big to fail".

slapout9
08-13-2010, 06:25 PM
Dr. Paul Craig Roberts on how greed destroyed Capitalism.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=20587

Pete
08-13-2010, 09:11 PM
'Oh, a lot has changed ... and not much of it for the danged better. He said, grumpily in his hoarse old voice...;)

Although off-topic, this story about Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. comes to mind:


A well-known anecdote has Holmes, riding in a carriage with a law clerk while in his nineties, passing a beautiful young woman on the street. Holmes is said to have sighed, "Oh, to be seventy again!"

slapout9
08-16-2010, 04:34 AM
Go to the site below and click play and watch an interactive map of US unemployment for 2007 to today.

http://cohort11.americanobserver.net/latoyaegwuekwe/multimediafinal.html

Dayuhan
08-16-2010, 05:00 AM
Dr. Paul Craig Roberts on how greed destroyed Capitalism.

Saying greed destroys capitalism is like saying gasoline destroys an internal combustion engine. Greed is the energy source that drives capitalism... and even socialism, once the energy source squeezes through the multiple filters of the bureaucracy.

I don't think Capitalism has been destroyed, either, though I suspect that the carburetor could use a bit of adjustment, to continue the engine analogy....

Valin
08-16-2010, 09:52 AM
or even warfare in general. The initial op-ed is pure political foolishness.Sheesh, creative writing at its campiest.
Could not agree more


Our Capital has been tone deaf all my life and until we start voting out all incumbents and get rid of political parties

Right. Like that'll happen.

slapout9
08-18-2010, 07:01 PM
Latest interview by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, includes comments on Iran.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIPoZvQqkJQ&feature=related

slapout9
08-19-2010, 11:00 PM
Dr. Paul Craig Roberts "The Ecstasy Of Empire" or how we need a new kind of Revolution to Tax Corporations oversees profits that out source American jobs.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=20650

Fuchs
08-19-2010, 11:18 PM
That's unlikely to work out well.

The U.S. is already an exception with its taxing of income generated by its citizens abroad.
A German doesn't need to pay German income tax if he lives (=60% or more of the year) in Monaco, for example.


It's more important to generate jobs anyway.
Think of a tax on international phone services. Call centre jobs would need to be moved to domestic locations and reliably put hundreds of thousands of unskilled people in labour.

Or end the structural nonsense of the financial sector ripping off the industrial sector and its shareholders. You need roughly a fourth more industrial output to meet your material consumption level. East Asians won't deliver goods for mere promises forever - sometime they'll demand a real payment and you don't want to experience a drop of a fifth of goods consumption in your society. That would be about twice as grave as the recent crisis and it would probably break much more.

Dayuhan
08-19-2010, 11:56 PM
we need a new kind of Revolution to Tax Corporations oversees profits that out source American jobs.

There is no such thing as an "American job". A job is only yours, as an individual or as a nation, if you can perform the function more efficiently than the other guy. If you penalize American enterprises by forcing them to hire less efficient labor, the enterprise goes out of business and produces no jobs at all.

Sure, you can force American corporations to produce at home. The product will be too expensive to sell, nobody will buy it, and the jobs disappear anyway. Not a solution. Protectionism never is.

slapout9
08-22-2010, 03:38 PM
There is no such thing as an "American job". A job is only yours, as an individual or as a nation, if you can perform the function more efficiently than the other guy. If you penalize American enterprises by forcing them to hire less efficient labor, the enterprise goes out of business and produces no jobs at all.

Sure, you can force American corporations to produce at home. The product will be too expensive to sell, nobody will buy it, and the jobs disappear anyway. Not a solution. Protectionism never is.

Pure Gobbsmackery, why is it every other country is allowed to engage in protectionism but we can't? China has a nationalized banking system that will provide any amount of money needed to allow it's industries to produce at below market rates in order for it to maintain a competitive advantage, and it also has a government policy of slave labor. You cannot defend against that without counter policies to protect our jobs (USA) and industries.

slapout9
09-06-2010, 04:26 AM
Link to Real News Network interview.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcCf9mzuLd4&feature=sub

Seabee
09-06-2010, 03:31 PM
Sure, you can force American corporations to produce at home. The product will be too expensive to sell, nobody will buy it, and the jobs disappear anyway. Not a solution. Protectionism never is.

Sure it is... tax imports... and make imports cost the same as locally made... then let the buyer choose.

My mother in law uses paint brushes once, its cheaper and easier to buy new ones from China each time. My kid gets more toys a year than i had in my life, because they are all so cheap....

We have become quantity consumers, not quality consumers.

If prices became higher due to protectionism, I would be forced to look after my stuff more...

Last week i went to the gym and forgot my Gym shoes. Instead of driving home to get them i bought a cheap pair at a shop next to the gym... Blush...

20 Years ago shoes were worth something, kids did not discard toys after a week... and you cleaned paintbrushes... cheap imports change a lot...

Joske
09-06-2010, 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayuhan

Sure, you can force American corporations to produce at home. The product will be too expensive to sell, nobody will buy it, and the jobs disappear anyway. Not a solution. Protectionism never is.
Sure it is... tax imports... and make imports cost the same as locally made... then let the buyer choose.

My mother in law uses paint brushes once, its cheaper and easier to buy new ones from China each time. My kid gets more toys a year than i had in my life, because they are all so cheap....

We have become quantity consumers, not quality consumers.

If prices became higher due to protectionism, I would be forced to look after my stuff more...

Last week i went to the gym and forgot my Gym shoes. Instead of driving home to get them i bought a cheap pair at a shop next to the gym... Blush...

20 Years ago shoes were worth something, kids did not discard toys after a week... and you cleaned paintbrushes... cheap imports change a lot...

Yes but these protectionist measures will then simply be followed by retaliation protectionist measures by countries who are subject to your measures, leading to a collapse of your export sector and by extension international trade.
also only producing for an internal market could lead to a massively reduced demand of your products and this will result in economic recession/downgrading and although this effect could be limited in large countries who have large internal markets, small and export aimed countries dont have such large internal markets and this would cause an even bigger economic recession in those countries.
And then we are not yet speaking about the political/social consequences of such a recession.

Seabee
09-06-2010, 04:10 PM
Yes but these protectionist measures will then simply be followed by retaliation protectionist measures by countries who are subject to your measures, leading to a collapse of your export sector and by extension international trade.

I am missing something here...... If AMERICANS cannot afford to buy US products and buy from China.... who is buying the US products?

From what I see, other countires only buy what they cannot make themselves... China may buy steel or wood... and will continue to buy... but they are not going to buy made in USA cheap transistors or kiddies toys....

The USA does not NEED Chinese Ghetto blasters and kids toys, they buy them because they are cheap... china however NEEDS raw products from other countries?

I am no economist, so Imay be a bit ahead of myself here...

Joske
09-06-2010, 06:55 PM
I am missing something here...... If AMERICANS cannot afford to buy US products and buy from China.... who is buying the US products?

From what I see, other countires only buy what they cannot make themselves... China may buy steel or wood... and will continue to buy... but they are not going to buy made in USA cheap transistors or kiddies toys....

The USA does not NEED Chinese Ghetto blasters and kids toys, they buy them because they are cheap... china however NEEDS raw products from other countries?

I am no economist, so Imay be a bit ahead of myself here...

Ok im not an expert on what the US exports and imports as im from Belgium so i cant really think of any examples to support my claim, anyways lets start.

consumers in a somewhat capitalist country dont only choose which products they are gonna buy acording to what they can afford what they cant, competition and thus the fact they can choose between several somewhat similar products.
So US consumers buy chinese kiddy toys because they have the best quality/price ratio.
On the other hand US producers might be able to produce and export another product at a better price/quality ratio then chinese producers and thus will be exporting to China.
This will then lead to specialisation of certain countries in certain sectors and will eventually lead to an increased production, employment and more economical activity (its called the law of ricardo i think).

Also you should not group all the products a country produces, there is no single market of "all products", similar products from all over the world are grouped in markets that have vastly different dynamics according to production proccesses and competition from other markets.
Also of note is that capitalistic systems work along a system of offer and demand, so if there is no demand for a product then there will be no offer.
And off course the fact that "countries" in general dont import or export, private citizens do it and they can only be "coached" by governements by using taxes and subsidies, but these private citizens still work for the acquirement of profit.

Also of note is that protectionist measures to strengthen your domestic economy is not something that only involves China, it involves every country that the US imports to or exports from, now a change in the export/import dynamics could not be that bad in the case of one country, but it might be devestating if done between other countries, say Europe and US.

So that was my little rant about international trade, i am also not an economist but in middle school i specialized in economics and this was practicly what i understood from that course, so if somebody who contrary to me actually knows what he is talking about, and sees im wrong please correct me.

Fuchs
09-06-2010, 07:05 PM
I am missing something here...... If AMERICANS cannot afford to buy US products and buy from China.... who is buying the US products?

The competitiveness varies between sectors and even between corporations and products.

Part of the problem is that not enough foreigners buy U.S. products, though.
The trade balance deficit (services balance included) is on the order of $ 30-60 billion per month. That's by how much the U.S. lives beyond its means.
A even more grave view would add to this the monthly loss of capital stock.

In the end, U.S. consumers need either to learn to live with about 4/5th of the goods consumption or U.S. industry output needs to grow by about 25%.

More consumption is certainly not the way to go, more savings = investment and moderate consumption is the way to go. The U.S. is in a similar situation as after 1945; it needs a time of hardships to get back on track for there's no easy way out of the economic mess.
The top income tax bracket in the 50's had a tax rate of about 90% (during the Republican presidency of Eisenhower!).

Dayuhan
09-07-2010, 12:58 AM
Sure it is... tax imports... and make imports cost the same as locally made... then let the buyer choose.

My mother in law uses paint brushes once, its cheaper and easier to buy new ones from China each time. My kid gets more toys a year than i had in my life, because they are all so cheap....

Last week i went to the gym and forgot my Gym shoes. Instead of driving home to get them i bought a cheap pair at a shop next to the gym... Blush...


You can't tax imported toys and shoes until they cost as much as local products, because there aren't any local products. These manufacturing lines moved out of the US decades ago, and nobody ever really missed them. It's really not possible to do low-skill labor-intensive manufacturing at US wages... the products would cost more than anybody would pay for them and the people making them would go out of business. People with lower incomes would also kick up a bit of a fuss if prices of items like clothes and children's toys suddenly quadrupled.

Protection is best understood as a subsidy, paid by the consumer. In an emerging economy it can be an effective way to shelter an industry that has the potential to be competitive but needs space to get established and achieve an economy of scale. Very hard to justify protection in a mature economy, unless we decide that we want consumers to perpetually subsidize non-competitive industries.

The problem, of course, is that everybody thinks their job and their industry is important enough to be subsidized... but if we subsidize everybody there's nobody left to pay the subsidy.

Treating non-competitiveness with protection is like treating malaria with paracetamol. You may push that fever down briefly, but you're not treating the cause. Why are we not competitive? Start with an education system that thinks competition is evil and produces more liberal arts graduates than the economy can possibly absorb, while even at close to 10% unemployment we have severe shortages of machinists, precision welders, and other skilled trades. Finish with an entitlement culture that has us convinced that wages should not be proportional to cost of a middle class lifestyle, not to the value of the product or service being produced. Fill in the space in between.

Our problem isn't them furriners. Our problem is us. We need to compete.

The trade deficit comes largely down to two issues. First is energy imports, which is not likely to change in the immediate future. Second, and more important, is a currency that has held an artificially inflated value, sometimes wildly inflated, for most of the time since WW2. That has been to some extent corrected, though IMO the dollar should still fall a bit more. It will take some time for that correction to show any material effect on the economy, though: the impact of 6 decades of distortion isn't reversed overnight.

slapout9
09-07-2010, 01:49 AM
Part 2 of the interview "The Collapse Of Liberalism" or how to deconstruct the system.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nelGtSOimwQ

slapout9
09-07-2010, 06:41 PM
This is an informal interview/lecture by Paul Jay of the Real News Network from 2008! done in the country of Estonia. Interesting stuff especially about what President Obama really stands for as opposed to the manufactured media image. Also has some points about the source of Terrorism being Saudi Arabia and dating back to WW2. Interesting to see how accurate he was of what was to come.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIeS3FlK1R4

Pete
09-07-2010, 11:54 PM
Now that we've agreed that an armed revolution in the U.S. is unlikely to be happening any time soon, what does this thread have to do with military affairs?

slapout9
09-08-2010, 12:39 AM
Now that we've agreed that an armed revolution in the U.S. is unlikely to be happening any time soon, what does this thread have to do with military affairs?

It dosen't that is why it is posted under "The Whole News" section.

"The Whole News Post and debate the news; good, bad and ugly. News ignored by the mainstream media especially welcomed here."

Cole
09-08-2010, 01:58 AM
Man, I love Alabama. After living in Iowa and California growing up, the east coast going to school, and multiple places in the world with Uncle Sam, I can honestly say there's no place I would rather be than sweet home Alabama.

But then you guys gotta start talking like this and putting confederate flags on your truck. You get folks who refuse to vote in a lottery or minor property tax increase that would add an extra $150 a year to build a new $20 milliion high school. They apparently don't realize that Californians pay 1.25% annually on their half million dollar modest home...some $6,250, so that those crazies can build half billion high schools in L.A....not lower Alabama but the real L.A. where my lawyer brother lives/works, traffic is idiotic, illegal aliens are plentiful, only matched by environmental impact studies that deprive farmers of water and destroy perfectly good dams so a few more fish will survive.

And then those left coast geniuses turn around and promise so much in government pensions that the state possibly has half a trillion in unfunded pension obligations. They go so hog wild on home speculation that it in turn drives up public and private pay to the point that businesses can't afford to operate there, especially when workmen's comp is included. Regular folks can't afford the taxes or normal homes that have been inflated near big cities forcing stupidly long commutes.

The inevitable crash occurs so then red states end up partially funding left and right coast stupidity in buying too much house for their income. You are right, that ain't right. They pay so much in interest on those homes that despite big incomes they don't necessarily pay big federal taxes, yet they expect us to bail them out of their own misguided purchase.

The other dumb thing in blue states is unions. The other day on TV, a guy was complaining that he had lost his $130,000-with-overtime GM job and was now making 100K less working at Loews. Well, duh dude, your $130K income, outrageous benefits, and huge pension are what put GM in bankruptcy. I refuse to be put on a guilt trip for not "buying American" when union folks demand so much...and get it...and our tax dollars foot the bill.

So when I see all kinds of foreign and multinational corporations being successful in the south, I have a hard time feeling sorry for American manufacturing. I will happily buy a Nissan Sentra made in Smyrna, Tennessee, an American pick-up for horse-happy wife, and my sports car Mazda that at the time was part owned by Ford. And I'm perfectly happy to make less than the coasters because my house is paid for and cost only $65K to build from scratch in 1986. You can make less in the south because it costs less to live here. You can survive as a business here for the same reasons...I know because I had one for 13 years.

It's a global economy and global interdependence in the economic sector helps deter war. So please help me cheerlead for a possible LCS victory by Australian Austal and KC-X win by EADS that also builds darn nice helicopters in Mississippi near where NG builds nice Fire Scout UAS. Did you know that Boeing C-17 workers went on strike? How about the KC-X crying Seattle boys that sent half the 787 production to South Carolina? Now Oshkosh wants to strike after corporate honchos got them crucial orders to keep them afloat at a ridiculously low M-ATV bid price...dumb.

You'll tell me that I don't get it and I'm a carpetbagger. Well, my daughter is hogging a Med School slot in Alabama, something she could never do in California due to greater competition. My son is now at Auburn so we are trying to assimilate. And assimilation is something my daughter endeavors to do sharing one good thing in common with those left coasters. She and an Indian and Pakistani med student are in the same study group and do just fine together. When I visit my Silicon valley former home, I also see plenty of Indians. Pakistanis, and Iranians who aren't threatening jihad and seem to get along with Americans quite well. Alabama has come a long ways from just 40 years ago which is why, when coupled with the Muslim immigrant population that does just fine here, leads me to believe that one day things could get better over yonder...using the U.S. and its well-intentioned Soldiers as a model.

So before even using the "R" word to describe changing government, just be glad you live where you live and a Kia and Hyundai plant are just down the road along with a fine university dressed all in orange. Wanna be like Aivs and be number 2 instead? Soon enough instead of 10 day traffic jams, China will have perpetual ones and even greater smog. They will have fewer younger and more older citizens thanks to the one-chld rule. Eventually wages will rise and some new place in the world will supplant them in making products for Walmart where Americans spend $2 million a week per store. Are you gonna tell me you don't buy from Walmart with all that non-made-in-the USA stuff?

Ken White
09-08-2010, 02:14 AM
For those who wish to post politically oriented comments, there are plenty of web sites out there. This is not one, politics only as pertain directly to small wars or warfare in general.

Thank you.

This thread is locked. CORRECTION: Was locked...

ADDED: On reflection, locking the thread was an over reaction on my part, so I've unlocked it. However it is IMO still an undesirable diversion into purely domestic political territory and there are plenty of sites that encourage that sort of dialogue. This site has not and hopefully will not.

I'll simply ask that future comments and threads devote themselves to warfare related topics and avoid the domestic political scene unless there is a direct relationship to warfare.

slapout9
09-11-2010, 04:16 AM
Warning: a couple of bad words are in this video clip!

This is some type of a street interview of Max Kyser(has a Financial News Show) on the threat from Wall Street and possible Middle Class response. Max usually is pretty funny if you have ever watched his shows but this seems to be some pretty serious stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciXw-4K-Gls&feature=player_embedded#!

AdamG
09-13-2010, 04:02 AM
I'll simply ask that future comments and threads devote themselves to warfare related topics and avoid the domestic political scene unless there is a direct relationship to warfare.

The ITG* rantings from either end of the political spectrum across the internetz, where chairborne commandos Cletus & Che Jr. froth over fantasies of picking up a gun while never being closer to a combat zone than their X-Box controller, strike me as just another case of plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

I wonder if F&I Veterans in 1774 or Mexican-American War vets in the summer of 1860 felt the same way. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/2961175776_b341ca0fc5.jpg

* Internet Tough Guys

slapout9
09-13-2010, 11:50 PM
where chairborne commandos Cletus & Che Jr. froth over fantasies of picking up a gun while never being closer to a combat zone than their X-Box controller
* Internet Tough Guys


That is some classic stuff man:cool:

slapout9
09-14-2010, 01:02 PM
Link to article on how the IMF warns of Social Unrest due to high unemployment.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/8000561/IMF-fears-social-explosion-from-world-jobs-crisis.html

bourbon
09-14-2010, 02:44 PM
The ITG* rantings from either end of the political spectrum across the internetz, where chairborne commandos Cletus & Che Jr. froth over fantasies of picking up a gun while never being closer to a combat zone than their X-Box controller, strike me as just another case of plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Some incredible graphics are in store for Cletus & Che Jr. with the latest Medal of Honor. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTtOVa1DZJ8)

slapout9
09-21-2010, 03:12 PM
what I am talking about when I say the next Revolution and it may be violent or it may not. H/T to Fab Max for posting a series of links to some good articles about how robotization and automation are very real threats to our present Recession and future ones.



http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2010/09/21/20560/#more-20560

slapout9
09-21-2010, 07:55 PM
Link to SWC member franksforum post on Global Governance. Some interesting stuff in here possible future revolutions in governance. I vote for scenario #2 Fragmentation!


http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?p=106846#post106846

AdamG
09-23-2010, 04:29 PM
Some incredible graphics are in store for Cletus & Che Jr. with the latest Medal of Honor. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTtOVa1DZJ8)

Tangentially related - http://www.news.com.au/technology/shoot-em-up-games-improve-decision-making-study-says/story-e6frfrnr-1225923173292#ixzz0zcKUbWqE

slapout9
09-23-2010, 10:22 PM
"Mr. President, Frankly I'm exhausted!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnMMo8lVG5M&feature=related

Reminds me of another lady that started a Revolution "I'm tired of being treated like a second class citizen" Rosa Parks

slapout9
10-23-2010, 02:34 PM
Link to a series of clips from President Kennedy's comments on our (Mankind) Revolution and how it cannot be stopped! I am biased but he was one of the last US Presidents to actually grasp what was and is going on in the World.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJrFpGYgMlE

Bob's World
10-23-2010, 08:31 PM
Slap,

Nice link. It is easy to forget how close every populace is to evolution, or every economy is to dramatic fluctuations due to the relatively safe bubble in time that the US has existed within for several generations. Small things can have tremendous impact, but in understanding the small things that really matter and being able to differentiate from those that perhaps seem significant in their time, the truly important ones can be managed.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the three pillars of American government are a marvel. Not the Executive, the Legislative and the Judiciary; those are necessary evils. But rather the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and The Bill of Rights that shape and constrain the context those three evils operate within; and preserve the rights in the "fourth branch / estate". Not the press, as they arrogantly claim, but rather the people themselves. Informed by a free press, free to assemble and speak their minds, free to worship as they desire, and armed to counter any government that would seek to constrain those rights.

In our history lays our future. This current rough patch will only become a problem is we forget what brought us here, and what will carry us forward.

I was at BWI this morning waiting for a flight to Tampa, and an Honor Flight came into my gate with a couple dozen WWII vets, most in wheel chairs, many in parts of uniforms. A 1LT from the 82nd, bright and alert with CIB, silver wings, BSM and purple heart on his old Ike Jacket. A pilot from the CBI theater, DFC and and air medal pinned to his shirt, his pilot's wings on his baseball cap. Others. They'll all be gone soon, but what they fought for can be here for long into the future if we simply stay focused on what is really important, and adjust our ways and means for the times we live in.

slapout9
10-24-2010, 03:05 PM
Hi Bob, this ones for you. And yes I saw it at the Drive In. The movie pretty much sucked eggs but it was one of our possible alternative futures. Nobody gets to live past 30:eek::eek::eek:





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cM61vetuTU&feature=related

AdamG
11-10-2010, 01:05 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/40076926#40076926

Interesting comments from the CommiePinkoLeftie political cartoonist Ted Rall about using violence for Change.

Then again, he's selling a book. :rolleyes:

Steve the Planner
11-10-2010, 01:27 AM
Bob:

Very nicely said. It is not the systems, per se, but the operating constraints that assure that the rollicking, inefficient and imperfect framework leaves space for some measure of human advancement.

Steve

slapout9
11-10-2010, 04:12 AM
Dylan Ratigan show: It is time for a Revolution, discussion of people's right to a Revolution in America


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=namL_pIqsVo

Presley Cannady
12-03-2010, 05:25 AM
I'd wager the likelihood of civil war spontaneously breaking out in the homeland is considerably less than it was...say...in 1933.

slapout9
12-08-2010, 11:31 PM
I'd wager the likelihood of civil war spontaneously breaking out in the homeland is considerably less than it was...say...in 1933.


Except the Army disagrees with you:eek: Link to CNBC report on UNIFIED Quest 2011 and how the Army is practicing(War gaming) for USA General Economic Collapse:eek:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread631845/pg#pid10082183

AdamG
12-17-2010, 12:35 AM
http://newsminer.com/bookmark/10688522-Militia-leader-Schaeffer-Cox-attempts-to-serve-judge-criminal-papers


FAIRBANKS — Schaeffer Cox appeared at the Fairbanks courthouse Wednesday morning as scheduled despite saying last week he would treat another court date “like an invitation to a Tupperware party.”

However, Cox, the 26-year-old head of the Alaska Peacemakers Militia, did not address the issue of a trial date on a weapons charge as the hearing was intended to do. He instead attempted to serve criminal papers and a restraining order from a “de jure court” on District Court Judge Patrick Hammers.

He also told an Alaska State Trooper after the hearing the militia has the troopers “outmanmed, outgunned and we could probably have you all dead in one night.” But Cox added he could not see himself shooting someone who lives in the same town as him.

About a half-dozen supporters and members of the militia accompanied Cox at the hearing. Initially, militia member Ken Thesing spoke for Cox, calling himself Cox’s representative and “counsel before God.”

AdamG
12-17-2010, 06:56 PM
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/12/hannibal_residents_in_oswego_c.html


Hannibal, NY -- They’re calling themselves the Hannibal Militia. They have their own Facebook page. They have put out a flyer.

A group of Hannibal residents, including locally known Iraq War veteran and conservative activist Jon Alvarez, has banded together to look out for one another and protect what is theirs, Alvarez said.

“We are a group of like-minded people who are trying to be proactive,” he said Tuesday. “The writing is on the wall — things are not going well in this country.”

Rex Brynen
12-17-2010, 09:39 PM
Except the Army disagrees with you:eek: Link to CNBC report on UNIFIED Quest 2011 and how the Army is practicing(War gaming) for USA General Economic Collapse :eek:

Surely wargaming around domestic aid-to-civil powers stuff is hardly new. In my brief time as a signaller in the (Canadian) Reserves long ago, I remember passing on radio traffic reporting my own fictional arrest (I was an activist with the local student union at the time, and someone thought it amusing to make me a terrorist collaborator in the scenario :D).

AdamG
12-20-2010, 06:36 PM
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose historical footnote : Newark 1967
http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?p=112047#post112047

AdamG
12-30-2010, 12:27 AM
Hannibal, NY -- The Hannibal Militia group is getting closer to defining exactly what it wants to be and what it will be called.

At the group’s second meeting Tuesday night at American Legion Post 1552 in Hannibal, co-founder Jon Alvarez, who moderated both meetings so far, told the nearly 25 in attendance the group needs more information on town crime and emergency preparedness.

Town board member Sandra Blanchard said he should get a copy of the town’s emergency response plan so it can be reviewed by group members to see where they could help in the event of an emergency.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/12/hannibal_militia_to_obtain_cop.html

*
And an interesting read on the Alaskan militia (see post 53, above)
http://m.anchoragepress.com/articles/2010/12/22/news/doc4d12863a2e553333327193.txt

slapout9
01-17-2011, 04:11 AM
Old Encyclopedia Britannica Movie on Despotism and how to measure it for yourself:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmBFYaYgmS0&feature=player_embedded

Bob's World
01-17-2011, 11:33 AM
Old Encyclopedia Britannica Movie on Despotism and how to measure it for yourself:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmBFYaYgmS0&feature=player_embedded

We were a lot tougher on despotism back before we got into the business ourselves. 1900-WWII we could rationalize that we were "liberators"; perhaps even up to about 1950. After that the realities of containment along ideological lines and the competition for key terrain and resources sent us down the proverbial "slippery slope."

The business of America is business, and business loves stability, and Despots provide stability, so America has grown tolerant of such governments.

Today the nature of our alliances are such that any U.S. leader who dared to speak out on despotism would be heckled off of the stage (which is actually a good sign here at home, heckling is still allowed! It is our denial of that right to others where we get off track).

AdamG
01-17-2011, 04:33 PM
We were a lot tougher on despotism back before we got into the business ourselves. 1900-WWII we could rationalize that we were "liberators"; perhaps even up to about 1950. After that the realities of containment along ideological lines and the competition for key terrain and resources sent us down the proverbial "slippery slope."

The business of America is business, and business loves stability, and Despots provide stability, so America has grown tolerant of such governments. Today the nature of our alliances are such that any U.S. leader who dared to speak out on despotism would be heckled off of the stage (which is actually a good sign here at home, heckling is still allowed! It is our denial of that right to others where we get off track).

Realpolitik and the business of Empire makes strange bedfellows - always has, always will.

Smedley Butler wrote about it, in the 1930s
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Mark Twain wrote about it, referencing specifically the Philippines at the turn of the last century.

Who else would you rather have leading the Free World?

Bob's World
01-17-2011, 05:01 PM
I'm all about leading, controlling is another story.

Leaders are followed out of the influence they possess, as others simply believe they will be better off by sticking close to the leader, so follow of their own accord.

Controllers lay down rules and direct others where to be, how to act, what to think, etc. They aren't followed so much as they direct and herd others to where they want them to be.

Then there are the "out of controllers," people either get out of their way to avoid the collatoral damage, or follow out of a morbid sense of curiosity as to what kind of trouble they are going to get into next.

We've been in that second category for quite a while, with growing fliration with that thrid category...

91bravojoe
01-18-2011, 08:05 AM
Here is the 'free world' eminence grise:

http://www3.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2005/192/9556754_112118645549.jpg

davidbfpo
01-24-2011, 09:55 PM
Slap and maybe others,

The link is to a UK article on banking, by a student and media froth aside banks are not popular here. It opens with:
The political moment for reform of the banking and shadow-banking industries seems to have passed. UK politics is in thrall to a powerful bank lobby that scores victory after victory.

Link:http://www.opendemocracy.net/openeconomy/andrew-bowman/grip-of-banking-lobby-on-british-politics-seems-unlikely-to-soften-soon

The conclusion is "froth" IMHO.

AdamG
01-30-2011, 06:19 PM
Got Neighbors?
Jus' sayin'....



Egyptians form makeshift militias to stop looters
As police disappear from residential streets, communities take law into their own hands against armed gangs

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/30/egyptians-makeshift-militias-looters

slapout9
02-15-2011, 02:32 PM
Interview of economist Jeffery D. Sachs on the Great Game at home.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW6LuDgVEKA&feature=player_embedded

slapout9
02-17-2011, 03:46 AM
Protesters took over the Capitol of..........Wisconsin:eek: to protest budget cuts. MSNBC "The Ed Show" has reported as many as 30,000 people were protesting outside in the Snow with more planned tomorrow. The Ed Show also reported that there are reports that the Governor has manufactured the budget crisis in order to gain concessions from the Unions. Links to the Ed Show reports are not available yet(should be later) but I did find a link to this article.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/sns-ap-wi--wisconsinbudget-protests,0,3272758.story

jmm99
02-17-2011, 05:41 AM
212 Chicago Tribune links (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/politics/scott-walker-PEPLT006878.topic) to this story.

This headline and story, Obama says he's monitoring tensions in Madison, calls Walker's measure 'assault' on unions (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/sns-ap-wi--wisconsinbudget-obama,0,4550092.story), says it all - politics as usual. :wry:


MILWAUKEE (AP) — President Barack Obama says he's monitoring the tensions in Madison. That's where protesters are criticizing efforts to eliminate collective bargaining rights for state employees.

Republican Gov. Scott Walker is pushing the measure, which would also increase how much public workers pay for their pensions and health care. Thousands are protesting at the Capitol in Madison.

In an interview with WTMJ-TV, Obama says everyone has to make adjustments to new fiscal realities. He notes that he imposed a two-year freeze on pay increases for federal workers, and says adjustments like that "are the right thing to do."

However, he says making it harder for public employees to collectively bargain "seems like more of an assault on unions."

Obama adds that public employees shouldn't be blamed for larger budget problems.

Slap, I fear Wisconsinites will disappoint you as revolutionaries; and will not walk like Egyptians. ;)

Scott Walker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Walker_(politician)) (R) won last fall over Tom Barrett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Barrett_(politician)) (D) - 52% to 46%. Barrett was a strong candidate - and personally has some guts. In 2009, Barrett went to the rescue of a lady who was being assaulted and was injured.

Cheers

Mike

slapout9
02-17-2011, 02:24 PM
jmm99, that is what drew my attention to it. When you think of all the places where a Civil Disturbance was/is likely to happen, Wisconsin would not be at the top of my list. Plus if the size (all total to be 30,000 people) is true? That is a good sized protest for most of the media to be largely ignoring. Another point and again IF it is true that the Governor cooked the books in order to manufacture a budget crisis that could have some serious consequences.

slapout9
02-17-2011, 02:37 PM
Link to a much smaller protest in Minnesota.


http://www.workdayminnesota.org/index.php?news_6_4762

jmm99
02-17-2011, 04:30 PM
We are speaking of Madison, Wisconsin - with a long history of protests with far more violence than this one. All I see currently is a union demonstration, akin to picketing.

In Madison, that is chump change. E.g., Dow riot (1967): (http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/dictionary/index.asp?action=view&term_id=9141&term_type_id=3&term_type_text=things&letter=D)


Definition: Anti-war protest on the University of Wisconsin's Madison campus, Oct. 18, 1967. When hundreds of students protesting recruiters from Dow Chemical, the makers of napalm, blocked access to the University's Commerce Building, Madison police removed them by force. Dozens of students were beaten bloody, tear gas was used for the first time in an anti-war demonstration, and 19 police officers were treated at local hospitals. The violence of the event is credited with politicizing thousands of previously apathetic students and helping to transform the Madison campus into one of the nation's leading anti-war communities

and, ratcheting up from that one, The 1970 Bombing of the Army Math Research Center at the University of Wisconsin (http://www.amazon.com/Rads-Research-University-Wisconsin-Aftermath/dp/0060924284):


In 1969-1970 a radical group called the New Year's Gang protested U.S. involvement in Vietnam with a series of firebombings in Madison, Wisconsin, which climaxed in the destruction of the Army Math Research Center and several other buildings on the University of Wisconsin campus. The August 24, 1970, explosion took the life of a physicist, injured several people and destroyed valuable research material. The core members of the gang, led by Karl Armstrong, fled to Canada, where they found refuge in Toronto's antiwar underground. Arrested in 1972, they were extradited to Wisconsin, tried and convicted.

PS: The Ed Show should be watched for fun - not for news content. :D

Cheers

Mike

Ken White
02-17-2011, 04:56 PM
PS: The Ed Show should be watched for fun - not for news content. :DNews? I never thought it was that funny, personally. :o

Though Alan Young did have his moments. :D

jmm99
02-17-2011, 05:10 PM
Here's some of the story from Wisconsin's "New York Times" - Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel coverage (from today):


Legislature could act Thursday on budget plan (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116301539.html)

Madison - Gov. Scott Walker's bill to strip almost all union rights for public workers advanced out of committee Wednesday just before midnight, setting up a pivotal floor vote in the Senate that is expected for Thursday amid massive demonstrations.

Voting 12-4 with all Republicans in favor of the bill and all Democrats against it, the Legislature's Joint Finance Committee added new civil-service protections for local government employees and kept cuts to public worker benefits. Walker has said that the cuts to worker benefits and to decades-old union bargaining laws are needed to help balance the state's gaping budget shortfall in this year and the next two.

The budget committee began debating the bill at 7:45 p.m. Wednesday, after Republicans spent hours behind closed doors crafting the changes. The Senate and Assembly could now act on it as early as Thursday.

No further changes will be made to the bill passed by the committee, said Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R-Juneau).

"This will pass in that form," Fitzgerald said.

His brother, Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald (R-Horicon), said he also expected the Legislature to accept the changes the committee adopted and not make any further ones. ... (much more)

and:


Crowds decry budget bill's handling of workers (http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/116284234.html)

Madison — Thousands of state union workers and their supporters blanketed the Capitol on Tuesday for a daylong demonstration to protest Gov. Scott Walker's plans to wipe away most of their bargaining rights and reduce fringe benefits.

They shouted slogans such as "kill the bill" and waved placards that said: "Stop the Attack on Wisconsin Families."

Observers said the crowd was one of the largest to descend on the Capitol in recent years. Capitol police said by early afternoon a few thousand people were inside the Capitol and several times that number stood outside.

The gathering was the biggest since the April 2010 tea party rally, when protesters pressed for lower taxes and smaller government. ....(much more)

Some photos from jsonline (http://www.jsonline.com/multimedia/photos/116237359.html) (68 photos; example):

http://media.jsonline.com/images/mjs-hearing_-nws_-sears_-18.jpg

As I said, a union demonstration - lots of public employees in Wisconsin.

Cheers

Mike

jmm99
02-17-2011, 05:21 PM
on the scene outside of the Capitol Bldg (from jsonline):

1396

Complete with Teamsters semi.

Cheers

Mike

slapout9
02-17-2011, 11:35 PM
PS: The Ed Show should be watched for fun - not for news content. :D

Cheers

Mike

jmm99,well the Ed Shoe was better than Glenn Beck who says that the Wisconsin protesters are in cahoots with Islamic radicals and are helping with the protests in Egypt......like they say you just cant make this stuff up:rolleyes:


Also Union are not part of the protest is about Wisconsin paying a Wall Street firm 15% per year to manage:rolleyes: their Pension Fund. As more State Budgets come under stress I believe you are going to see more Wall Street Tali-Banksters were in the shadows.

Surferbeetle
02-17-2011, 11:52 PM
Also Union are not part of the protest is about Wisconsin paying a Wall Street firm 15% per year to manage their Pension Fund. As more State Budgets come under stress I believe you are going to see more Wall Street Tali-Banksters were in the shadows.

Are you the Amazing Carnac? :D

Wisconsin pension funding for teachers falls $10.9 billion short, report says (http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/90768644.html), By Amy Hetzner of the Journal Sentinel, April 13, 2010


Wisconsin's statewide pension system for public employees may not be as well-funded as the state reports, with a new study estimating it could be as much as $10.9 billion short in meeting its obligations just to teachers.

While the state estimates that the Wisconsin Retirement System is nearly 100% funded, the report by the conservative Manhattan Institute and Foundation for Educational Choice warns that the amount could be far less.

Here (http://chartporn.org/2010/05/18/underfunded-state-pensions/) is a underfunded pensions chart by state...:eek:

...and here (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/11/the_social_security_shortfall.html) is a social security shortfall graph :eek:

We are on our own, good thing we have military training; index funds and dollar cost averaging ;)

jmm99
02-18-2011, 12:41 AM
this Wisconsin teapot tempest turn into this - Flint Sit Down Strike (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_Sit-Down_Strike) (Michigan politics), which it isn't.

But, it does have its own humor - from WTMJ (TMJ = The Milwaukee Journal):


Budget Battle: Democrats Who Left State are Located (http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/116390569.html)
By The WTMJ News Team

MADISON - Democratic State Senators who protested the budget repair bill by leaving the state have been found.

The lawmakers are in the Best Western Clock Tower Resort in Rockford Illinois.

Law enforcement officials have been looking for at least one Democratic senator to bring in for a quorum required for a fiscal measure, but Democratic Senator Jon Erpenbach confirmed to Newsradio 620 WTMJ that he and all of his Democratic colleagues boarded a bus and left the state.

"We're not in Wisconsin right now," Erpenbach said. "The reason why we're doing this is because there are some jurisdictional issues that we'd be dealing with."

The Senate's Sergeant at Arms cannot compel Senators' attendance in an open session if they are outside of state lines. ...

At the very least, they could have pointed their bus north and stayed at the Watersmeet Casino (http://www.lvdcasino.com/) and given us some tourist dollars.

Cheers

Mike

Pete
02-18-2011, 02:37 AM
The Ed Show should be watched for fun - not for news content.
I personally never saw any news content on the Ed Sullivan show.

jmm99
02-18-2011, 03:52 AM
Entertainer Eds

1397

Newsman and Propagandist Ed

1398

:):)

Mike

slapout9
02-18-2011, 04:06 AM
Are you the Amazing Carnac? :D

Wisconsin pension funding for teachers falls $10.9 billion short, report says (http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/90768644.html), By Amy Hetzner of the Journal Sentinel, April 13, 2010



Here (http://chartporn.org/2010/05/18/underfunded-state-pensions/) is a underfunded pensions chart by state...:eek:

...and here (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/11/the_social_security_shortfall.html) is a social security shortfall graph :eek:

We are on our own, good thing we have military training; index funds and dollar cost averaging ;)


Surferbeetle,no carmac here I live in right to work state so we don't have problems like that but it does get better the new Governor of Florida (bald headed guy can't remember his name) wants to eliminate all pensions for Policemen,Firemen,and Teachers....that will be goodone to watch.

slapout9
02-18-2011, 04:07 AM
Entertainer Eds

1397

Newsman and Propagandist Ed

1398

:):)

Mike

Careful Mike, PETA will say your are being cruel to horses:wry:

slapout9
02-18-2011, 04:17 AM
The Giant Sucking Sound of jobs and tax revenues going overseas!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkgx1C_S6ls

Pete
02-18-2011, 04:27 AM
... we could rationalize that we were "liberators"; perhaps even up to about 1950.
No, it was earlier than that, it was in 1947 with the Truman Doctrine for Greece that these moral dilemmas began. If we take sides in a messy overseas war and train, arm and advise one side instead of the other it raises difficult questions. Are we morally complicit if the side we support lines up the prisoners it has taken and blows them away? Does it matter if U.S. advisors are present at the time? Should anyone give a damn? Which is more important, winning the war or morality in the abstract?

Ken White
02-18-2011, 05:23 AM
but it does get better the new Governor of Florida (bald headed guy can't remember his name) wants to eliminate all pensions for Policemen,Firemen,and Teachers....that will be goodone to watch.He merely wants them to contribute and the State to contribute less. Varies too much by job to cite here but all in all, most State employees do not now contribute at all, the State pays the entire cost. Scott wants them to contribute 5%. :cool:

I guess they'll march on Tallahassee over that... :D

slapout9
02-18-2011, 07:00 PM
this Wisconsin teapot tempest turn into this - Flint Sit Down Strike (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_Sit-Down_Strike) (Michigan politics), which it isn't.

But, it does have its own humor - from WTMJ (TMJ = The Milwaukee Journal):



At the very least, they could have pointed their bus north and stayed at the Watersmeet Casino (http://www.lvdcasino.com/) and given us some tourist dollars.

Cheers

Mike


I don't know what the Law is up there, but that is a pretty dangerous action IOM to threaten the use of force to locate the duly elected officials that run the state. jmm99 what's you legal opinion?

slapout9
02-18-2011, 07:01 PM
I guess they'll march on Tallahassee over that... :D

I have know doubt you will keep them in line:D

jmm99
02-18-2011, 09:56 PM
Here's the Wisconsin Constitution, Art. IV, Legislature (http://my.execpc.com/~fedsoc/wi-con04.html) (emphasis added):


SECTION 7. [Organization of legislature; quorum; compulsory attendance.] Each house shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members; and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business, but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may compel the attendance of absent members in such manner and under such penalties as each house may provide.

and in the US Constitution, Art. I (emphasis added):


SECTION. 5. Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.

Those darn black-hatted, Iron Brigaders from Wisconsin were just a bunch of copycats. They did pretty well in the War of Northern Aggression, however. ;)

BTW: Illinois can't fetch Dems, lawyers say (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116452383.html):


The Wisconsin legislators on the lam cannot be touched by out-of-state police, according to veteran Wisconsin lawyers.

The attorneys agree that authority of Capitol Police and other local law enforcement ends at Beloit, meaning Illinois officers couldn't help their Wisconsin brethren retrieve those Democrats who escaped if they wanted.
....
Carla Vigue, spokeswoman for the Capitol Police, said the agency has not looked for the legislators nor has it contacted Illinois authorities.

"We're not engaged" in the situation, she said.
....
A similar situation occurred in Texas in 2003 when legislative action there was paralyzed for several days when Democrats ran off to Oklahoma and New Mexico. The Democrats were trying to block a Republican redistricting plan.

The Texas boycotts ended when one Democrat voluntarily returned to Austin. The plan was approved over the objections of Democrats.

So, MSNBC (out of many hyping media outlets) is hyping this aspect of the event.

The noon (today) crowd at the Capitol was very large (jsonline photos; #1 (http://www.jsonline.com/multimedia/photos/116479938.html)).

MJS (jsonline) (http://www.jsonline.com/) has the best coverage of this Wisconsin story.

MJS's Politifact column (a regular feature) has 2 pages of links to truths, half-truths and lies re: Statements about State Budget (http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/subjects/state-budget/).

For example, this assertion, from Progressive Change Campaign Committee (http://boldprogressives.org/home):


Says Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker "has threatened to call out the National Guard if workers protest against" changes to bargaining laws.

but, from MJS Politfact (http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/16/progressive-change-campaign-committee/group-says-gov-scott-walker-threatened-send-out-na/), after a long discussion of the evidence:


Let’s return to the statement.

The Progressive Change Campaign Committee said Walker "threatened to call out the National Guard if workers protest against these cuts!" The governor spoke of possibly calling up the Guard if state workers didn’t show up for work, but he made no reference to using it in response to protests. And certainly none that would suggest the Guard is authorized to use force to impose anything on state workers.

We rate the claim Pants on Fire.

Finally, Poll: Majority don't side with Walker; senators should come home (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116492008.html):


A new poll shows that a small majority of Wisconsin residents disagree with Gov. Scott Walker’s plans to increase public employees’ share of their benfits and to strip the unions of much of their power.

But the poll also says that a stronger majority of respondents think that Democratic state senators, who fled the Capitol on Thursday to avoid taking a vote on the Walker’s legislation, should return to Madison.

The poll was conducted and paid for We Ask America of Springfield, Ill. The poll was conducted on Thursday by sampling 2,397 Wisconsin residents. The margin of error is plus or minus 2 percentage points.

The poll asked respondents if they approve or disapprove of Walker’s plans. According to the poll, 43.05% approved and 51.9% disapproved. 5.05% were uncertain. Females and union households registered higher disapproval.

On whether the Democratic senators should return to Madison, 55.99% said yes, 36.38% said no and 7.63% were not sure. There was virtually no difference of opinion based on gender. ....

My conclusion is that both political parties are trying to manipulate the public via the parties' respective media outlets. I hope both parties fall flat on their fat a$$es (fat because of their fat wallets).

Regards

Mike

Ken White
02-18-2011, 10:18 PM
Both of 'em are criminally insane (for lack of a better phrase to describe venal, corrupt, dishonest, selfish and self righteous foolishness aided by would-be demagoguery fostered by both stupidity and cupidity) IMO. :mad:

We, the Voters, got a good start last November -- vote out all incumbents!!! :cool:

Fuchs
02-18-2011, 10:31 PM
We, the Voters, got a good start last November -- vote out all incumbents!!! :cool:

I know it's domestic politics of a distant country to me, but I'm still puzzled.

I think I remember that the 'anti-incumbent movement' was exposed as a hoax of the mainstream media several times already. Incumbents are on average still very safely in their offices if they decide to campaign for another term.

Ken White
02-18-2011, 11:00 PM
I think I remember that the 'anti-incumbent movement' was exposed as a hoax of the mainstream media several times already. Incumbents are on average still very safely in their offices if they decide to campaign for another term.The media reports, correctly, that persistent calls from many to vote out all incumbents are not generally successful.

That is true because the Politicians in all legislatures -- not just Congress -- write laws and promulgate rules to protect their incumbency. The so called McCain-Feingold electoral reform law, "The Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002," was also called by many the "McCain-Feingold Incumbent Protection Act" because it accorded US Congressional incumbents a number of protections and assists in retaining their seats.

They also try to protect themselves by essentially buying Votes. Many US social welfare programs and the recently passed Affordable Health Care Act are aimed at providing not sorely needed but certainly welcome cash benefits to middle class voters while throwing crumbs at those near or below the poverty line (obviously every penny sent to someone who doesn't need it takes away from someone who desperately needs help -- but the Politicians don't seem to worry about that). Politicians at all levels also bring jobs and new highways, bridges, etc. to their States, Counties, Cities and and Districts so most voters are all for voting out other politicians but not theirs...

However, this past November, there was, for the first time in many years, a large number of losses by incumbents, some of whom were deemed to be extremely safe and sure to be reelected. That, hopefully, is a sign that the incumbent may become less sure of retaining the seat.

We'll see...

Pete
02-19-2011, 01:29 AM
Wisconsin has a long tradition of trade unionism. The blue-collar guys there are social and foreign policy conservatives but if you jack with their paychecks all hell will break loose. In Milwaukee labor unionism comes from the old German socialist tradition brought over by immigrants around 1900 from Bismarck's Germany.

When I was in college there at Marquette University in 1970-73 the Milwaukee Police Department had a Tactical Squad with a ferocious reputation gained from its experience in breaking up labor disturbances -- when heavy-set industrial workers of German and Polish extraction go on strike the confrontations with the police can get violent really quickly. That was in the days before SWAT Teams when the main police weapon was an oversize lead-filled nightstick. One Milwaukee cop I talked to nearly 40 years ago said the Tactical Squad was an organization of bullies that was run by a bully.

Fuchs
02-19-2011, 02:15 AM
Little excursion about labour unions, from an economic science point of view:

Labour unions are a form of organisation that can serve the purpose of compensating for several market failures.

One (of many) market failures is a power asymmetry - this leads to one party having an unfair advantage over another. The result is an inefficient distortion; the market fails to allocate resources efficiently (based on preferences, not power).

The absence of labour unions provides corporations with an asymmetric power advantage over workers, resulting in an inefficient income redistribution away from labour income towards capital income (and often towards top management income, too).

Labour unions can become powerful enough to exaggerate their role and gain asymmetric power advantage over employers, but that's rare.

Labour unions also address the market failure issue of too high transaction costs. It's simply inefficient to negotiate wages individually. Centralised wage negotiations for thousands of largely identical or comparable jobs have much lower transaction costs than individual negotiations.


Both unconditional support for and unconditional opposition to labour unions is therefore an expression of economic policy incompetence (or of a principal-agent problem in politics) in my opinion.


It's 'disappointing' that there's still such a primitive view of labour unions (either pro or contra) so very much wide-spread in the western world. We had more than a century time for understanding labour unions, strikes and their roles!

What would we say about a clan of chimpanzees who fail to grasp a lesson for 150 years?
I think we'd say they're too stupid and thus insufficiently capable to learning.

jmm99
02-19-2011, 02:31 AM
There are worse things to be.

As you correctly state, Milwaukee is a tough blue collar town - Madison is a universe or two removed. Old Mil = "social and foreign policy conservatives", which is one reason why I like the place.

Of course, the well-paying blue collar jobs have been reduced substantially over the past three decades. So Old Mil town is not what it was when you were there in 1970-1973. I've watched that happen over almost the last 50 years (since an MU friend invited me down to Milwaukee for a couple of weeks in 1962). I know Milwauikee far better than Detroit.

The MJS PolitiFact staff's most recent shots this evening hit two Republicans and one "progressive" (having nailed another "progressive" group earlier).

Scott Walker (http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-his-budget-repair-/)


Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says his budget-repair bill would leave collective bargaining “fully intact”.
....
Where does that leave us?

In arguing the changes would be modest, Walker cited the civil service system and said "collective bargaining is fully in
tact." However, Walker himself has outlined how his budget-repair bill would limit the collective bargaining rights of public employees.

Indeed, it’s that provision that provoked daily demonstrations at the state Capitol and national media attention. To now say now say collective bargaining would remain "fully intact" is not just false, it’s ridiculously false.

And that means it is Pants on Fire

Paul Ryan (http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/paul-ryan/us-rep-paul-ryan-compares-madison-cairo-calls-prot/)


U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan compares Madison to Cairo, calls protests over collective bargaining changes “riots”.
.....
Puzzled, we called Ryan’s office and asked what he was referring to in his comments about riots and his comparison of a week of Madison protests with 18 days that led to the resignation of the president of Egypt.

Ryan’s response: "It was an inaccurate comparison."

To put it mildly.

Our response: Pants on Fire.

Rachel Maddow (http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-says-wisconsin-track-have-budget-sur/)


Rachel Maddow says Wisconsin is on track to have a budget surplus this year.
....
Here’s the bottom line:

There is fierce debate over the approach Walker took to address the short-term budget deficit. But there should be no debate on whether or not there is a shortfall. While not historically large, the shortfall in the current budget needed to be addressed in some fashion. Walker’s tax cuts will boost the size of the projected deficit in the next budget, but they’re not part of this problem and did not create it.

We rate Maddow’s take False.

I'd place the Journal-Sentinel center-left (that is, in the center on its left side, as I'm center-right). Its local columnists (that I read regularly) run across the spectrum from liberal to conservative:

Gene Kane, Raising Kane (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/raisingkane.html).

Jim Stingl, In My Opinion (http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/116450363.html)

Jim Causey, Uncommon Causey (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/UncommonCausey.html)

Patrick McIlheran, Right On (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/mcilheran.html)

It's not the NYT or WP, but it's a good regional paper. I hope it survives.

Regards

Mike

slapout9
02-19-2011, 04:38 AM
I just finished watching Bill Maher and they had Matt Tiabbi(Rolling Stone Financial reporter) on tonight. He has just written a new book about the financial crisis. His take was (as is mine) that pension funds are in so much trouble because of all the crap that Wall Street sold them. They took terrible losses that will have to be made up, and since the tax base was shipped over seas(see Ross Perot) States are know playing the game of make 35k a year teachers pay for their greed.

RJ
02-19-2011, 06:03 AM
Ken White posted.

"We, the Voters, got a good start last November -- vote out all incumbents!!! "

Ken, Gov. Scott has been in office for about 6 weeks. He was elected on Nov. 4, 2010.

His first act was to reduce taxes to stimulate WI's economy and generate jobs.

The puff balls on msnbc are equating the tax cuts as "distributing money to his republican crony's." He is one of several new Republican Govenors who few of us have ever heard of that IMHO will be political stars in the next few years. Andrew Coumo (D) the new NY Govenor is going after the public jobs sector, and targeting teacher's first. He is acting in a very conservative manner. It's almost like he took a page out of NJ Gov. Chis Christy's play
book.

The key word in WI, NY and NJ is "We are out of money and can not afford to pay you the giant perks of the past.

Ohio, is heading toward the same senerio.

The professional protesters are being bused in from beyond WI's borders and Saturday should be an interesting day in Madison. The local WI Tea Party is holding a Gov. Scott Support rally in Madison on Sat. It should be an interesting stand off and I hope it doesn't become a headbashing moment in the Sunday Morning headlines.

A group of protestors showed up at the Govenors home yeaterday morning and raised a stink in that peaceful suburb. Gov. Scott has small children, but his said this moring that he will not be intimidated.

I've listened to some of the protesting teachers say they would be willing to contribute too their pension and medical plans, but are adament about not giving up their right to negotiate future contracts.

If the Gov. gets an agreement from the Teachers on the pension and medical cost sharing I believe he has the retention of collective bargaining chip to give back.

Lets see who blinks and how soon. The teachers who failed to show for school this past week are playing chicken with their jobs. The Madison School Board was seeking an injunction this morning on ordering them back to work or terminating the lot of them.

Can you say Ronald Reagan and AirControllers and remember the action taken?

The millions of WI taxpayers who pay large school taxes and pay the full boat on the teachers pension and medical might reach a point where they react to their children, not getting the education they are paying for.

Has anyone googled the average wage paid WI Teachers? 35 K seems a bit light for "tenured teachers". Newbie's, may start at that, but what does the average teacher recive in compensation, including benefits?

Follow the moola!

Dayuhan
02-19-2011, 07:30 AM
I just finished watching Bill Maher and they had Matt Tiabbi(Rolling Stone Financial reporter) on tonight. He has just written a new book about the financial crisis. His take was (as is mine) that pension funds are in so much trouble because of all the crap that Wall Street sold them.

Anyone who gets their financial news or analysis from Rolling Stone deserves what they get, which ain't much. Might as well trust them to tell you what's hot... oh, wait...

The notion that "pension funds are in so much trouble because of all the crap that Wall Street sold them" is to me a crock. Caveat Emptor applies in the financial world, more than in most places, and pension funds are more than capable of doing their own due diligence. Blaming your own bad investment decisions on the seller is a cop-out of the worst order, but it's nothing new. I wish I had a peso for every investor in penny stocks who blamed their losses on "those $%#@&% market makers".

Wall Street should get its share of the blame, but to a very large extent the recession was made in Washington DC. Politicians of both parties, which are equally culpable, would much rather have you blame Wall Street, though. Makes their lives ever so much easier.

Trying to force industries to stay in the US when they can operate more efficiently overseas is a fools errand that will always fail. The movement is a symptom. Treat the cause, don't try to ban the symptom.

motorfirebox
02-19-2011, 12:36 PM
Let’s return to the statement.

The Progressive Change Campaign Committee said Walker "threatened to call out the National Guard if workers protest against these cuts!" The governor spoke of possibly calling up the Guard if state workers didn’t show up for work, but he made no reference to using it in response to protests. And certainly none that would suggest the Guard is authorized to use force to impose anything on state workers.

We rate the claim Pants on Fire.
MJS' analysis is more than a little disingenuous. One doesn't--one can't, it's simply not possible--casually and innocently bring up the National Guard in conjunction with protests. Nobody with a lick of education can fail to make the connection to past unpleasantness, which makes it hard to see Walker's statements as anything but a carefully veiled threat. Yes, he certainly did make sure to cover his ass; he didn't come out and say that he'd use the NG to break up riots, and I'd even be willing to extend him the benefit of the doubt and say he probably doesn't intend to do so. I don't think it's possible for him to have missed the threat his message carried, though, and therefore I don't think there's any possibility that the threat wasn't intended.

82redleg
02-19-2011, 01:44 PM
MJS' analysis is more than a little disingenuous. One doesn't--one can't, it's simply not possible--casually and innocently bring up the National Guard in conjunction with protests. Nobody with a lick of education can fail to make the connection to past unpleasantness, which makes it hard to see Walker's statements as anything but a carefully veiled threat. Yes, he certainly did make sure to cover his ass; he didn't come out and say that he'd use the NG to break up riots, and I'd even be willing to extend him the benefit of the doubt and say he probably doesn't intend to do so. I don't think it's possible for him to have missed the threat his message carried, though, and therefore I don't think there's any possibility that the threat wasn't intended.

IMO, protest = generally non-violent (generally, because targeted violence in self defense is almost always acceptable to me) and is generally acceptable. Riot, on the other hand, is random violence and is therefore unacceptable. Rioters should be shot down where they stand. Throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails is not protest.

On the other hand, IIRC, President Reagan used the AF to handle ATC duties after he fired the controllers for striking. What better way to provide necessary gov't services than to activate the states ARNG (it is the state's force, until federalized, after all). This has nothing to do with a threat, accept maybe a threat to stand firm and fire those who have walked off their jobs in a tantrum over a (as I understand it) generally coherent and thoughtful effort to create a sustainable system, which the current system is not. Who are the adults here, again?

Sergeant T
02-19-2011, 03:02 PM
Anyone who gets their financial news or analysis from Rolling Stone deserves what they get, which ain't much. Might as well trust them to tell you what's hot... oh, wait...

I would normally agree. Any publication whose sole mission is celebrity aggrandizement shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone over the age of 18. But Tiabbi isn't so much giving financial news or analysis as looking at the way the finance industry operates. I'd liken him to a gonzo version of Michael Lewis. I came across this piece a while back and thought it was worth the time (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/looting-main-street-20100331). I'm 1/3 of the way through Griftopia (http://www.amazon.com/Griftopia-Machines-Vampire-Breaking-America/dp/0385529953/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298126994&sr=8-1) and thus far it's been worth the trip.

slapout9
02-19-2011, 03:06 PM
I would normally agree. Any publication whose sole mission is celebrity aggrandizement shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone over the age of 18. But Tiabbi isn't so much giving financial news or analysis as looking at the way the finance industry operates. I'd liken him to a gonzo version of Michael Lewis. I came across this piece a while back and thought it was worth the time (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/looting-main-street-20100331). I'm 1/3 of the way through Griftopia (http://www.amazon.com/Griftopia-Machines-Vampire-Breaking-America/dp/0385529953/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298126994&sr=8-1) and thus far it's been worth the trip.

Yep! read his books and articles. Who he has his day job with dosen't really matter.

Ken White
02-19-2011, 04:33 PM
The notion that "pension funds are in so much trouble because of all the crap that Wall Street sold them" is to me a crock. Caveat Emptor applies in the financial world, more than in most places, and pension funds are more than capable of doing their own due diligence...

Wall Street should get its share of the blame, but to a very large extent the recession was made in Washington DC. Politicians of both parties, which are equally culpable, would much rather have you blame Wall Street, though. Makes their lives ever so much easier.

Trying to force industries to stay in the US when they can operate more efficiently overseas is a fools errand that will always fail. The movement is a symptom. Treat the cause, don't try to ban the symptom.This entire thread exists due to the failure of OUR politicians to pay attention to their Oaths of Office and to do their job. Their tendency to foist blame elsewhere and avoid tough decisions is responsible for many of our current problems and that totally includes job movement and nominal Wall Street issues.

Any financial scandal is likely to be a result of sharp dealing or a scam -- and it takes two parties to make that occur...

motorfirebox
02-19-2011, 08:31 PM
IMO, protest = generally non-violent (generally, because targeted violence in self defense is almost always acceptable to me) and is generally acceptable. Riot, on the other hand, is random violence and is therefore unacceptable. Rioters should be shot down where they stand. Throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails is not protest.

On the other hand, IIRC, President Reagan used the AF to handle ATC duties after he fired the controllers for striking. What better way to provide necessary gov't services than to activate the states ARNG (it is the state's force, until federalized, after all). This has nothing to do with a threat, accept maybe a threat to stand firm and fire those who have walked off their jobs in a tantrum over a (as I understand it) generally coherent and thoughtful effort to create a sustainable system, which the current system is not. Who are the adults here, again?
There's nothing wrong with using the NG to fill in for state employees who go on strike. There is, however, a threat inherent in talking about calling up the NG in response to a strike.

As for rioting, well, even if I agreed that throwing rocks is a killing offense, I don't see how it applies in this situation. The protests in Wisconsin have been, by all accounts, peaceful.

82redleg
02-20-2011, 03:53 AM
The protests in Wisconsin have been, by all accounts, peaceful.

Aren't they trespassing? If they are, they should be arrested and charged. If they aren't, well, I've been mistaken before.

motorfirebox
02-20-2011, 04:26 AM
I haven't heard anything about trespassing. A Google search for "Wisconsin protest trespassing" doesn't return any relevant results, so I'm inclined to believe that trespassing is not a part, or at least not a significant part, of the action taking place.

Pete
02-20-2011, 05:20 AM
If this line of thought about free-loading civil servants running up the deficit is taken to its logical conclusion maybe some will decide that armed forces pay should be cut by two-thirds. Then perhaps military retirements could be ended as well and a legal mechanism for ending the ones that now exist could be found. If you don't make the cut to be a U.S. executive in charge of factories located overseas you could always earn minimum wage at a convenience store or in fast food. Do you want fries with that? People aren't loading their guns yet -- but if this keeps up just wait 10 or 20 more years. :eek:

slapout9
02-20-2011, 08:25 PM
If this line of thought about free-loading civil servants running up the deficit is taken to its logical conclusion maybe some will decide that armed forces pay should be cut by two-thirds. Then perhaps military retirements could be ended as well and a legal mechanism for ending the ones that now exist could be found. If you don't make the cut to be a U.S. executive in charge of factories located overseas you could always earn minimum wage at a convenience store or in fast food. Do you want fries with that? People aren't loading their guns yet -- but if this keeps up just wait 10 or 20 more years. :eek:

Pete, I think your right but it want take anywhere near that long. I give it 2 years, people are hurting like they have not hurt in nearly a generation, after awhile hurt will turn to anger.

Ken White
02-20-2011, 09:32 PM
those that endured the recessions of 50-75 and the one before that which went through the Depression didn't get angry. Why should the current crew get angry when this is no worse than the 53 and 74 recessions and nowhere near the 30s... :confused:

Could it be that years of 'entitlement' lead to spoiled recipients? ;)

Bill Moore
02-20-2011, 11:09 PM
Posted by Ken,


They also try to protect themselves by essentially buying Votes. Many US social welfare programs and the recently passed Affordable Health Care Act are aimed at providing not sorely needed but certainly welcome cash benefits to middle class voters while throwing crumbs at those near or below the poverty line (obviously every penny sent to someone who doesn't need it takes away from someone who desperately needs help -- but the Politicians don't seem to worry about that). Politicians at all levels also bring jobs and new highways, bridges, etc. to their States, Counties, Cities and and Districts so most voters are all for voting out other politicians but not theirs...

I nominate Ken for President, but the President doesn't have the power to eradicate the culture of white collar crime in our Congress, only the people do and as Ken stated we're all about voting out politicians in other districts, but not the ones in our districts who bring in the government cheese.

Sadly, as Ken stated that cheese is too often directed at the middle class (because that is where the votes are) who doesn't need government handouts, but enjoy them too much to do without them. The upper class are bought with tax breaks they don't need. The lower class is underaddressed (schools, welfare, health care, etc.), because they don't vote and they can be controlled by redrawing district lines.

Political pundits on the right and left have too often distorted the truth to fit their narrative to win votes. Their goals are too often disassociated with solving real problems, and instead focused on staying in office. The history of welfare has been distorted, it actually served and continues to play a key role in providing a safety net. It is much easier to integrate someone on welfare back into the mainstream ecomony than trying to rescue masses from the slums like India. Our values differ from nations like India that let their people starve. Yes we believe in self made people, but it is also true that kids in some districts where there is high crime and enduring poverty have much less opportunity to do that. Welfare provides a safety line and nothing more. Some people abuse it, but what program doesn't have people that abuse it?

As Dayuhan accurately pointed out, the labor unions played a key role in limiting corporate abuse. Collective bargaining was and remains a powerful tool for labor, but unfortunately it went from countering obviously labor abuses to pampering labor (to win votes), which in fact makes labor so expensive now that it has pushed many jobs overseas. Labor leaders are wealthy, they really don't care. Wiser heads saw it coming, but wise people are rarely elected into office, only those who beat the drum on emotional issues.

Now it is once again time to pay the bill for promises based on money that never existed. Some people will be hurt, some politicians won't be reelected for doing the right thing, and too many politicians will continue to do the wrong thing just to stay in office so they can enjoy their share of the government cheese and associated benefits.

The people need to organize, but every time they attempt to, like the recent Tea Party Movement, the movements seem to be misled by popular politicians who like to ride the groundswell. Sarah killed the credibility of the Tea Party. Other parties have been crushed by politicians riding their coattails. Maybe we need to organize real non-partisan movement focused on solving problems (using social media), but can we really expect it not to get hijacked by a partisan, which will undermine its credibility?

It will probably have to get worse before it gets better, but I don't believe this is a passing economic cycle. I think the problems we have are structural in nature and won't self correct until we fix the structure.

Pete
02-20-2011, 11:22 PM
My main concern is that we're not merely going through a spell of bad weather -- rather, it's that disturbing structural changes to the U.S. economy are taking place. There is no revolution in the cards but kids born now might have a lot less to look forward to than their parents. The old Free Trade orthodoxy that discourages protectionism doesn't work when places like China offer generous subsidies for corporations to move their manufacturing facilities there. Perhaps we should defend our economy by fighting dirty as well.

Cole
02-21-2011, 12:04 AM
If this line of thought about free-loading civil servants running up the deficit is taken to its logical conclusion maybe some will decide that armed forces pay should be cut by two-thirds. Then perhaps military retirements could be ended as well and a legal mechanism for ending the ones that now exist could be found.

Pete, the federal civil servants are not the problem. With FERS, their retirement is far less lucrative than either military, police, or state civil servants. My wife is a lowly GS-5 Step 10 and will never make more and now her pay is capped the next two years despite being post MWR employee of the year two years ago. What makes it worse is some other DAC with a masters degree in D.C. is constantly finding new ways to make her life more difficult forcing her to do paperwork on her own time and supervise multiple other child care providers and rooms of kids and drive the bus for a fraction of the D.C. DAC's pay and workload.

Call in sick? She has to be told to leave when she is under the weather. Then you see these Wisconsin teachers fabricating sick slips and neglecting their kids education and you want to puke. They said their AVERAGE pay is around $57K but when you add benefits it is over $100K...for 9 months work. Then I see starting police officers in San Jose making over $80K before overtime.

So the coming problem will be the attempted bail out of all these blue states that overextended their pension, benefit, and wage obligations and expect all state taxpayers to bail them out. This Wisconsin bit is the tip of the iceberg. They believe you can keep increasing property taxes to cover inflated state/city civil servant pay and taxpayers are revolting.

The one thing I don't get is why Republicans refuse to increase taxes on those making over $250K. I don't wanna hear it about small business owners. They already hide income left and right. They are the major solution to solving many of the problems...not just slashing budgets and adding to the deficit. Remember, back in Ike's day, the highest tax bracket was paying 90%. When did we let the rich take total control of the Republican agenda.

Cole
02-21-2011, 12:14 AM
My main concern is that we're not merely going through a spell of bad weather -- rather, it's that disturbing structural changes to the U.S. economy are taking place. There is no revolution in the cards but kids born now might have a lot less to look forward to than their parents. The old Free Trade orthodoxy that discourages protectionism doesn't work when places like China offer generous subsidies for corporations to move their manufacturing facilities there. Perhaps we should defend our economy by fighting dirty as well.

Again. unions did it to themselves. Plenty of foreign carmakers make a profit with factories in the south. Littoral Combat Ship and possibly KC-X built in Mobile will cost taxpayers a fraction of a left or right coastal manufacturing facility.

Before we start talking protectionism, let's look at the source of stateside manufacturing jumping ship. 8 times out of 10 it is unions. Steel down the drain? A German company just invested $4 billion in a site near Mobile. Hyudai has two plants in Alabama. Kia just built a plant just across the border in Georgia. Toyota built a plant in Mississippi. Boeing will manufacture 787s in South Carolina along with nearby BMWs and Michelins.

Pete
02-21-2011, 12:40 AM
Perhaps. But many working people who now regard themselves as being Republicans or even Tea Party activists may start changing their minds when their rice bowls start going away. You see a lot of them on gun forums pointing out how they've always made it on their own and never collected welfare, sort of a cleaned-up George Wallace message that goes back to resentments left over from the 1960s.

motorfirebox
02-21-2011, 01:38 AM
The one thing I don't get is why Republicans refuse to increase taxes on those making over $250K. I don't wanna hear it about small business owners. They already hide income left and right. They are the major solution to solving many of the problems...not just slashing budgets and adding to the deficit. Remember, back in Ike's day, the highest tax bracket was paying 90%. When did we let the rich take total control of the Republican agenda.
Well... have you looked at how much of the Tea Party movement is funded and directed by the Koch brothers?

Ken White
02-21-2011, 02:39 AM
Best we leave Parties and people by name out of the discussion lest it degenerate into an ideological flame war. Unlike here there are other discussion Boards on the net which encourage that...;)

motorfirebox
02-21-2011, 03:27 AM
True enough.

Cole
02-21-2011, 03:47 AM
Best we leave Parties and people by name out of the discussion lest it degenerate into an ideological flame war. Unlike here there are other discussion Boards on the net which encourage that...;)

Frankly, I don't see how you can separate discussions of small wars, foreign policy, domestic policy related to budgets that fund our military, etc from discussions of politics. I find it particularly puzzling that the censorship is only related to this particular thread.

I voted for a democratic Congressman in November. I just bashed Republican policy on taxing the rich. Could care less about the Tea Party. Watched George Soros on Fareed Zakaria today and Geraldo tonight who was the first correspondent I've heard to admit that those who sexually assaulted Lara Logan were pro-democracy demonstrators.

COL Bob regularly advocates Democratic foreign policy. A California professor publishes an article here in Spanish knowing full well very few here can read it.

I've heard you say a pox on all party houses. Also heard you mention you have sons who are police officers so feel you have a conflict of interest...plus you are a double dipper. Do you really want to turn censor?

jmm99
02-21-2011, 04:40 AM
that they soon cease to be "ideological", and degenerate into ad hominem attacks. Cole's last post amply proves that to this reader.

If you can, argue the "law" (ideology). If you can't argue that, argue the "facts" (preferably prejudicial). If you can't argue that, call your opponent a schmuck.

Which is not uncommon among quibbling lawyers. Here are two:


kanBARoo - 86th Installment (http://kanbaroo.blogspot.com/2011/01/86th-installment-florida-state-bar.html)
...
Friday, January 7, 2011
....
What occurred between them is sometimes termed a “flame war”, an escalating exchange of insults, often attributed to the absence of the inhibitions direct contact would foster.

The only significant difference between the two attorneys’ conduct consists in the political incorrectness of Mitchell’s mockery of Mooney’s handicapped offspring: While I am sorry to hear about your disabled child, that sort of thing is to be expected when a retard reproduces. Compare with Mooney’s strongest: Then check your children if they are even yours. Better check the garbage man that comes by your trailer to make sure they don't look like him. .....

We don't need such crap.

Cole
02-21-2011, 05:06 AM
that they soon cease to be "ideological", and degenerate into ad hominem attacks. Cole's last post amply proves that to this reader.

If you can, argue the "law" (ideology). If you can't argue that, argue the "facts" (preferably prejudicial). If you can't argue that, call your opponent a schmuck.

Which is not uncommon among quibbling lawyers. Here are two:



We don't need such crap.

Dude, I have no idea what you are talking about. My point was that I have no axe to grind for/against any particular political party. There was no slam against Ken who I admire immensely. I'm just puzzled that he would censor this particular thread when it did not appear to be out of control.

I'm not even going to return ad hominem attacks against you because you apparently misunderstood my point. My bad if that was the case.

Ken White
02-21-2011, 05:06 AM
Frankly, I don't see how you can separate discussions of small wars, foreign policy, domestic policy related to budgets that fund our military, etc from discussions of politics.You can't. However, it is quite possible to discuss without espousing a particular political position, without supporting or denigrating a particular party, parties or ideology. That is IMO discussing politics rather than policy. There's a place for that, I just would hate to see it take hold here and as the stated purpose is to discuss policy relating to warfare in general and small wars in particular, wandering afield into political parties and such becomes a judgment call. I believe it should be minimal. YMMV.
I find it particularly puzzling that the censorship is only related to this particular thread.Not so, I and others have nudged on other threads; I and others have also shut threads down. This is the first one where I've intruded twice -- and that is as much due to the thread title and initial tone as anything. My suspicion is that many other Moderators don't read this one simply due to the subject matter and tone. :wry:

I believe if you'll check, you'll find that Moderators only intrude when they sense some heat building or read a post that looks as if it might lead to a political flame war. Small War or large war flame battles are okay here -- even encouraged. Domestic political preference flame wars are not because they tend to lead to excessive heat on topics often not terribly germane.

I call it nudging, you call it censorship. Either way it is a fact that this is not a political Board. There are plenty of them out there.
I voted for a democratic Congressman in November...COL Bob regularly advocates Democratic foreign policy. A California professor publishes an article here in Spanish knowing full well very few here can read it.Good for you and yes to the rest of that. Though I do tend to ping COL Bob on that very fact every now and then. He's cagey enough not to get overtly political even if he does favor Nye...
I've heard you say a pox on all party houses. Also heard you mention you have sons who are police officers so feel you have a conflict of interest...plus you are a double dipper. Do you really want to turn censor?In order, true; I don't understand the conflict of interest point -- I have none to my knowledge and am unsure what the sons who are cops have to do with anything :confused: ???; Actually, since my Dad was in the Navy, before ,during and after WW II and when I first went in the Marine Corps I guess I'm really a triple dipper. In almost 80 years, I only had three years of pure civilian employment. :D

No, I do not want to turn Censor-- I don't even like or want to 'nudge.' Nor do I want this Board to descend into the pure partisan political backbiting that is all to prevalent on the internet. The help of you and others on this thread in achieving that would be appreciated.

Ken White
02-21-2011, 05:13 AM
...I'm just puzzled that he would censor this particular thread when it did not appear to be out of control.The censorship you see, suggestion IMO, made both this time and earlier was simply to suggest that we not let it get out of control, no more...

Dayuhan
02-21-2011, 05:24 AM
Remember, back in Ike's day, the highest tax bracket was paying 90%. When did we let the rich take total control of the Republican agenda.

Maybe when we figured out that rich people invest their surplus income, and that money invested does the economy more good than money given to the government, aesthetically displeasing though it may be.

If you graph maximum tax rate vs federal revenue you will see that the trend of decrease in maximum tax rate did not produce a decrease in federal revenue. Au contraire, federal revenues increased quite dramatically. Unfortunately, federal spending increased even more dramatically. The answer to that problem is not to give more to a beast that will always, if allowed, spend more than it earns.

If we're looking at the economic stature of the US vs the rest of the world, the bottom line is that the US emerged from WW2 with a stupendous advantage. All potential competitors were either devastated, saddled with economically destructive ideologies, or both. That advantage is now gone, probably forever. The rest of the world is in play, and the US has to buckle down and compete. Trying to hide behind protectionism, blame, and half-assed politicking is not gonna help. We have to compete. Did I repeat myself? Good, I meant to. We have to compete.


Yep! read his books and articles. Who he has his day job with dosen't really matter.

I have read some of his stuff. Not impressed.

Cole
02-21-2011, 05:32 AM
All great points Ken. And I guess the use of the terms red and blue states could be provocative. I've lived in both many times in my life and they all have pros and cons.

But guess when we are mainly concerned with military matters, we are concerned about the military budget. How will it be funded in years to come when so many other obligations to include the deficit are looming?

My pro-Republican argument is that you cannot spend $77 billion at the federal level on education as proposed...because as my "wife" argument showed, there are already too many folks at higher HQ who make life harder for local educators. Increasing pell grants is nice...you don't get diddly squat when you have a decent income and that would not change. At some point you must look at making college cheaper...not providing more federal money to allow it to get more expensive.

My pro-Democratic argument is that rich folks can afford to pay more taxes than they already do. If they don't want their kids to serve, then they should at least pick up more of the tab for those who are so willing.

Another example. We sent our girl to a reasonably priced private college because she wanted to play tennis and they had a good reputation for education and were not that far away. It ended up being about as cheap as sending my son to Auburn where he had to drop Calculus II because he could not understand the Chinese assistant instructor teaching it. So again, you cannot always claim that additional tax money spent on public institutions is providing a proven product.

Get the idea. It is possible to discuss the issues without a flame war. No revolutions required. Education may be part of the answer to making our economy better, but simply throwing $77 billion at it in 2012, a 20% increase over 2010, is not necessarily going to be money better spent than say an extra billion and a half spent each year to have a split buy on KC-X and put 98,000 to work in a long term high tech aerospace industry that does not require college.

Pete
02-21-2011, 05:36 AM
Give that man a Willkie button!

http://www.humanitiesweb.org/images/h98/h98w.jpg

Dayuhan
02-21-2011, 06:14 AM
My pro-Republican argument is that you cannot spend $77 billion at the federal level on education as proposed...

Education may be part of the answer to making our economy better, but simply throwing $77 billion at it in 2012, a 20% increase over 2010, is not necessarily going to be money better spent than say an extra billion and a half spent each year to have a split buy on KC-X and put 98,000 to work in a long term high tech aerospace industry that does not require college.

Education is a major issue and a major problem, but throwing money is not going to help. The US graduates huge numbers yearly with expensive degrees that are economically irrelevant. Meanwhile industries looking for machinists, precision welders, and other skilled-trade employees can't find qualified applicants, even with unemployment near 10%.

Decades ago our educational system de-linked from the economy with the belief that everyone should go to college and get a liberal arts degree. That has to change. Ultimately I suspect that we may have to skew the system back by offering heavy subsidies for education in engineering, hard science, and the skilled trades and making degrees in subjects with limited demand very expensive. A society with more astrologers than astronomers is going to be at a significant disadvantage in the 21st century.

Ken White
02-21-2011, 06:30 AM
I guess the use of the terms red and blue states could be provocative. I've lived in both many times in my life and they all have pros and cons.I don't see them as provocative, I think suggesting that one or the other is full of cretins might be. That would be both unbalanced (both have pros and cons is balanced) and immoderate... :D
But guess when we are mainly concerned with military matters, we are concerned about the military budget. How will it be funded in years to come when so many other obligations to include the deficit are looming?Valid question and topic Note A and B below:

A:
My pro-Republican argument is that you cannot spend $77 billion at the federal level on education as proposed...because as my "wife" argument showed, there are already too many folks at higher HQ who make life harder for local educators. Increasing pell grants is nice...you don't get diddly squat when you have a decent income and that would not change. At some point you must look at making college cheaper...not providing more federal money to allow it to get more expensive.B:

We should not spend $77 billion at the federal level on education as proposed, it merely puts a band aid on the real problem. At some point you must look at making college cheaper...providing more federal money is likely to allow it to get more expensive.

A:
My pro-Democratic argument is that rich folks can afford to pay more taxes than they already do. If they don't want their kids to serve, then they should at least pick up more of the tab for those who are so willing.B:

We aren't overtaxed, in fact the well off or rich folks could easily pay more -- the problem is our tax system is skewed. The Feds take in over 60% of all government revenue but spend only about 40$ of all government expenditures. The difference is handled by grants and trnsfers and this inefficient way of doing business has been a factor in our economic problems for year under adminsitrations from both parties.

... ...

The foregoing is provided, mostly tongue in cheek and really without intending any snark, to unnecessarily edit your two not really provocative comments. Aside from changing glad to happy, all I did was take out the reference to political parties. Note also that your comment was even handed. The problem I see is that everyone doesn't always try to be balanced -- even I screw that up on occasion :( -- and if one seems to be slamming one side (or protecting the other) that tends to invite argumentive comments.
Get the idea. It is possible to discuss the issues without a flame war. No revolutions required.I totally agree -- and that's why I do my best to only intrude when someone -- not necessarily you -- seems to be getting one sided instead of trying be reasonably balanced and stick to the policy in question and not the party or faction involved.

We all have ideological leanings and biases, the owners of this site merely ask that we leave those at the door and be civil. The key to discussion where there must be a political content is, I think moderation and balance. As long as those two traits are present, there's not going to be any interference by me. :cool:
Education may be part of the answer to making our economy better, but simply throwing $77 billion at it in 2012, a 20% increase over 2010, is not necessarily going to be money better spent than say an extra billion and a half spent each year to have a split buy on KC-X and put 98,000 to work in a long term high tech aerospace industry that does not require college.True. We'll see what the final amount in the budget that actually gets signed into law happens to be...

P.S.

I'm still confused over the :conflict of interest" and the Two Cop kids...:confused:

Pete
02-21-2011, 06:45 AM
Don't ever ever try to drop Ken for push-ups. It'll come back on you in strange ways.

Cole
02-21-2011, 01:03 PM
I'm still confused over the :conflict of interest" and the Two Cop kids...:confused:

Because I was talking about the cost of state and city employees, and suddenly the topic was incendiary.

I will add that one of my Los Angeles brothers is a lawyer who once owned a Karate studio and years ago was turned down for the Oakland Police due to hearing damage in one ear from a childhood injury. Another tried to get into the special forces but had a wrist injury from football and was thus excluded. That's the one that just climbed a 14,500' mountain with his wife at age 47.

Yet I'm confident that these kind of inequities/disabilities will continue to exclude good candidates while normal physiological differences between men and women will be overlooked in the name of P.C. and women will make their way into the combat arms without having to carry 100 lb backpacks or lift 100 lb artillery shells.

Saw an interesting interview in which a small business owner was interviewed side-by-side with a Wisconsin teacher. The teacher was complaining that his two-teacher family would lose about $13,000 in income due to Gov Walker's proposals. It struck me that in some states, that small business owner could easily pay half that $13,000 in property taxes not to mention workmen's comp and sales tax that would put it well above $13K on far less income. She had to work a part time job to get medical insurance that the Wisconsin teacher family was getting at less than the national average.

The one fit brother mentioned earlier has owned a small restaurant/bar for many years yet can only afford to live in a small house on his father-in-laws spacial land...the retired local Caltran supervisor. He is constantly irritated by the taxes he must pay to own a business. Another relative owns a fiber-optic company in Louisiana that he has spent millions building up with partners...only to see the federal goverment compete with him by installing line with taxpayer "stimulus" funds.

On a different but related subject, in this nation a college degree artificially appears to discriminate between the haves/have nots even though its actual workplace value is often questionable...particularly a liberal arts degree. The two teacher family feels put upon that the lesser educated small business owner would object to having to pay higher taxes to payroll that teacher couple and their benefits. I will wager that Ken does not have a master's degree yet few would question his wisdom and knowledge. What ever happened to OJT having as much value as a degree or union card?

You'll have to excuse me as I need to get ready for work. Those of us in the private sector without union representation and tax-funded government jobs don't get today off. I will add that I have no objection to the pay of many state and local government workers. In Alabama, for instance, I'm sure Slapout would have been happy to retire at half the pay that San Jose cops start out at.

slapout9
02-21-2011, 02:05 PM
In Alabama, for instance, I'm sure Slapout would have been happy to retire at half the pay that San Jose cops start out at.

Funny you should mention that. I had an offline conversation with Bob's World about Police pay in the South vs. some place out West. A Patrol Sergeant out West(cant remember where) makes almost as much as my old Chief of Police...unbelieveable:eek:

slapout9
02-21-2011, 04:20 PM
those that endured the recessions of 50-75 and the one before that which went through the Depression didn't get angry. Why should the current crew get angry when this is no worse than the 53 and 74 recessions and nowhere near the 30s... :confused:

Could it be that years of 'entitlement' lead to spoiled recipients? ;)

Very good question because it is different. The concentration of wealth and power into the hands of a non-elected, non-accountable few has never been as great as it is now. Republicans and Democrats just don't matter anymore IMO, very little difference and to many similarities. It is about the Moral destruction of our country, its about To Big to fail,To Big to go to jail,To Big to pay your share.

The 74 recession may have been a real tipping point as far as what we should have done and still need to do. Hint Nixon figured it out. I will give more details later but I have stuff to do. Until then enjoy some music for the Revolution and you listening pleasure from the Cultural Center of the Universe.

Jimmy Cliff-"The Harder They Come" go Rasta Man:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrq9TWw6sQE

Fuchs
02-21-2011, 05:42 PM
On a related note:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gini_Coefficient_World_CIA_Report_2009.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Gini_Coefficient_World_CIA_Report_2009.png/800px-Gini_Coefficient_World_CIA_Report_2009.png

higher = greater income inequality

Now maybe you look at the graphic and think of how U.S. citizens often bash Canada, but there's more:

"Study: Most Americans want wealth distribution similar to Sweden (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/09/25/poll-wealth-distribution-similar-sweden/)"

Ken White
02-21-2011, 05:48 PM
Very good question because it is different. The concentration of wealth and power into the hands of a non-elected, non-accountable few has never been as great as it is now.sez not so... :D

It's just as bad as its been in the memory of most alive today. Most. Not all. ;)
Republicans and Democrats just don't matter anymore IMO, very little difference and to many similarities.Agree mostly -- they still affect things but both are in need of a moral rebirth -- if 'moral' and 'politics' aren't contraindicated.
It is about the Moral destruction of our country, its about To Big to fail,To Big to go to jail,To Big to pay your share.Yep.

Cole:

I missed the connection about state and city employees. Totally. Never even occurred to me. Nor should it have. What you wrote was not an issue.

What did occur to me was the use of the words Republican and Tea Party by Pete followed immediately by the mention of the Koch Brothers by Motorfirebox. Neither of them was wrong, just that a trend was developing.

As my Mom used to tell me "It's not always about you..."
Those of us in the private sector without union representation and tax-funded government jobs don't get today off. I will add that I have no objection to the pay of many state and local government workers.As one who put in some hard time on a whole big bunch of Holidays, Christmases, etc, for a whole lot less money, you have my empathy. ;)

Okay, so tax-funded private sector jobs are okay? :D

Any way, don't work too hard and I hope today was a good 'un for ya.

Ken White
02-21-2011, 06:05 PM
Now maybe you look at the graphic and think of how U.S. citizens often bash Canada...Okay. Can I at the same time think of how many Canadian citizens often bash the US? Can I think of how many citizens in many countries do that for some good and bad reasons, not least the net US:Rest of the World wealth disparity? :wry:
Study: Most Americans want wealth distribution similar to SwedenAh, yes. From that possibly, even probably, skewed survey note these items in Italic quotes:

""The authors suggest the reason that American voters have not made more of an issue of the growing income gap is that they may simply not be aware of it. "Second, just as people have erroneous beliefs about the actual level of wealth inequality, they may also hold overly optimistic beliefs about opportunities for social mobility in the United States, beliefs which in turn may drive support for unequal distributions of wealth," they write.""

My observation has been over many years in the US that most -- not all -- people are aware of the gap and do not care. It has also been that the bulk of expressed concern on the topic is from left leaning tanks and academics and the occasional person with a populist bent who wants to gripe. ;)

Further, most know that the upward mobility is not a myth but that it does take luck, hard work and ambition. So most applaud those that proceed upward and go buy a lottery ticket...

This item is key: ""The authors also note that, though there may be widespread agreement about income inequality, there is no agreement on what caused it or what should be done about it."" Exactly and that's true even among the previously cited leaners and academics.

""Americans exhibit a general disconnect between their attitudes towards economic inequality and their self-interest and public policy preferences, suggesting that even given increased awareness of the gap between ideal and actual wealth distributions, Americans may remain unlikely to advocate for policies that would narrow this gap," the authors argue."" (emphasis added / kw)

Exactly again -- so what was your point? :wry:

Steve the Planner
02-21-2011, 09:41 PM
Wow. There are so many issues.

By the 1970's, cities were aging badly, with the three C's pulling them down (Crime, Costs and Cancer), so they were abandoned for the low-tax suburbs.

New schools and new teachers (at low salaries) in the inner suburbs are now evolving into older schools with higher operating costs, and older teachers (at peak salaries) shifting to retirement, so the old city costs of old retirees and new hires is catching up to the inner suburbs, and looming for many of those newer suburbs.

Behind that is the loss of interest income. A billion in pension funds can earn $100 million at ten percent, and $15 million at one and one-half percent. Albeit many pension funds were under-secured---a matter being addressed through GASB accounting standards beginning in the mid, late 2000s, the interest collapse came before the ship could be righted, and pulled the floor out from under states and localities at the same time they were accruing real losses due to the stupid investment vehicles they were advised into.

While it is entertaining to hear the same old "governments are stupid" argument, the fact is that, absent the interest collapse, economic decline, housing bubble burst, and bad investments, all cascading on states and localities in a few short years, none of these problems and criticisms would exist.

Instead, they are facing fundamental new conditions never contemplated by US federal and financial gurus, and are struggling to stay upright without federal assistance (unlike last year where the Stim money was a bridge).

Let's see---unfunded deficits this year are about the same as last year's stimulus flow. If there is no other funding source, and no longer an expectation of temporariness to the circumstances, then, there is a potential crisis that has not yet been thought through.

State and local layoffs and halted purchasing may, by next year, start to thunder into the national economy, and drive even more national deficits.

Questions and answered which have been avoided, so far, are structural.

What if Las Vegas is permanently overbuilt, overpopulated by 25%? Where do those folks go? What becomes of property values, teacher pension obligations, etc...?

By contrast, a return to boom times would completely eliminate all of this.

Dayuhan
02-21-2011, 10:55 PM
While it is entertaining to hear the same old "governments are stupid" argument, the fact is that, absent the interest collapse, economic decline, housing bubble burst, and bad investments, all cascading on states and localities in a few short years, none of these problems and criticisms would exist....

...By contrast, a return to boom times would completely eliminate all of this.

Yes, if we didn't have problems, there wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately booms are not generally sustainable, and if we rely on a boom to keep the ship afloat, we have a problem.

One of our biggest problems is that governments like booms, and do all they can to support them. We only ever hear about "countercyclic intervention" during down cycles; nobody intervenes to chill a boom. Booms lead to busts, though, and the bigger we inflate them the harder they fall... and it's all too easy for our efforts to cushion the fall to set up the conditions for the next cycle.

I've often wondered about the extent to which OBL was responsible for the severity of the recent recession, in ways he would probably never have anticipated. We can't know what would have been, of course, but GWB had a few decent paleocon impulses and a few advisers who might have pointed in the right direction, and it's at least possible that without a war he might have done the right thing. All speculation, of course...

Fuchs
02-21-2011, 11:11 PM
We only ever hear about "countercyclic intervention" during down cycles; nobody intervenes to chill a boom.

Central banks can cool down boobs, and some of them really did so.

Politicians cannot really cool down a boom, their failure is primarily that they fail to devise surplus budgets during a boom.

That again is acceptable if the economic growth trend is stronger than the deficit. Countries with population growth can sustain (for the duration of said growth) significant budget deficits without an increase in % GDP public debt.


@Ken: I provided some additional food for thought, you don't need to assume a big point in everything.

Ken White
02-21-2011, 11:34 PM
@Ken: I provided some additional food for thought, you don't need to assume a big point in everything.Seriously. Didn't really mean to make a big deal out of it. I've heard about that income Gap for years, yep, it is worse now than its been for a while but Americans are very tolerant of it.

Most European hearth nations dislike ostentation and strive for income equality. As the Australians say "Cut down the tall poppy..." The US has never really adopted that attitude (except for those who try, generally unsuccessfully, to ape European sophistication and savoir faire). Americans are if nothing else not opposed to a bit of ostentatious behavior. We have only rarely been concerned with income inequality. We have no royalty or nobility (most of whom learned in the 19th Century to be quite discreet) and substitute the wealthy for those classes. So, not a big deal nor is it anything new or anything that is likely to change much...

Dayuhan
02-22-2011, 12:25 AM
Central banks can cool down boobs, and some of them really did so.

Now why would anyone want to cool down a nice hot set of... oh, ok, it's a typo, but really, who could resist?


Politicians cannot really cool down a boom, their failure is primarily that they fail to devise surplus budgets during a boom.

Politicians can work with their Central Banks; the separation is not nearly as complete as it's set up to be. There's also a great deal that politicians can do outside the purely economic realm. Many booms are to a large extent driven as much by psychological as economic factors, and none more so than the collective psychosis of the late '90's equity bubble, the reverberations of which are still with us. There's a lot that could have been done to influence perception there... but we were balancing the budget by taxing (very hypothetical) capital gains, and everybody was having fun, and who wants to spoil a good party?

Doing too much to cushion a bust is as bad, of course... have to wonder what would have happened if the derivatives markets had been allowed their deserved and needed crash in 2001/2002...

Fuchs
02-22-2011, 01:39 AM
Now that's funny. the original typo was "boombs", I don't seem to have corrected that well before submitting the reply....

Dayuhan
02-22-2011, 03:54 AM
Now that's funny. the original typo was "boombs", I don't seem to have corrected that well before submitting the reply....

I've actually been wondering when JMA would drop by and propose resolving the financial crisis by dropping boombs on somebody, or possibly firing cruise missiles.

I personally prefer boobs to boombs, but that's just me being a pervert.

Kiwigrunt
02-22-2011, 04:02 AM
It’ll all go boobs up if you drop the wrong ordnance. ### for tat and all that.

slapout9
02-22-2011, 05:04 AM
If you get the chance watch the Rachel Maddox show from tonight(first 10 minutes). Appears the Wisconsin Governor has pulled this stunt before when he was some type of a County Commissioner. Financial mayhem will happen if we don't cut the budget so he Privatized the local Court Security force. And it ended up costing the government more than it is was supposed to save, he also hired a convicted felon:eek: to run the privatized security he used to replace the previous Union one. Also turns out that Unions that supported his Campaign (State Troopers for one) have been exempted from the proposed law....hmmmm appears the budget crisis only affects Unions that opposed his election. Watch if you get the chance.

jmm99
02-22-2011, 04:57 PM
as reported by Chan. 6 WITI, when it happened a year ago (10 Mar 2010) - Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker invokes authority to lay off workers (http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-100303-county-security,0,1014174.story).

No further comment by me.

Mike

slapout9
02-22-2011, 06:58 PM
Rachel Maddow Story from 21 FEB 2011.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV5LRSZu8GI

slapout9
02-23-2011, 04:55 AM
Malcom Gladwell speaks on Income Inequality Gaps.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uskJWrOQ97I

RJ
02-23-2011, 05:15 PM
Rather than rely on hyped and agenda empowered TV I perfer to cruse the newspapers for the different sides opinions.

Here is the best summary of this morning on the WI situation.

Washington Times article quote

"The fiscal reality of crisis in Europe is driving the political reality of impatience in American politics.

And now we have the astounding spectacle of Wisconsin, where the Democratic state senators have left the state rather than attend the vote for modest but necessary cuts in public employee benefits proposed by the new Republican governor, Scott Walker, who was elected to do precisely what he is proposing (including restricting public employee unions' collective bargaining powers).

Compounding the spectacle is the Cairo-like demonstrating by tens of thousands of union members -- particularly teachers who have called in "sick," thus forcing the closing of many Wisconsin public schools. (Of course, unlike Cairo, Wisconsin is part of the American democracy, which has just had a fair and honest biennial election -- and it has done so more than 100 consecutive times -- in which the people were able to speak and elect their chosen leaders.)

Though we do not have reliable polling on the Wisconsin controversy yet, it was a telltale sign over the weekend when the head of the teachers union urged teachers to go back to work. Public unions are in a justifiably low standing with the public.

And after three years of private-sector firings -- plus 9 percent unemployment, salary cuts, home mortgage crises and 401(k) shrinkage -- the 91 percent of the American work force that works in that private sector (53 percent for small businesses with even lower benefits) is entitled to feel little sympathy for Wisconsin schoolteachers, who receive an average of $89,000 in salary and benefits and contribute $0 to their pension plans and only 5 percent to their medical insurance. (The average private-sector employee contributes 29 percent.)

The president's strong support for the public workers union lines up -- at least for the time being -- a both state and federal policy debate that may well yield needed deficit reduction legislation and dangerous political waters for the Democratic Party. The Democrats seem to be prepared to defend the idea of not dealing with the deficit crisis. Have the Democratic strategists (including those in the White House) really thought through the electoral implications of that decision?"

Does anyone here believe that running away from responsibiliy or calling in sick falsely is the right thing to do.

FDR was opposed to public Unions and this situation is supporting his expectations.

slapout9
02-24-2011, 04:03 PM
FDR was opposed to public Unions and this situation is supporting his expectations.

Newspapers are a good source of information but they often have their own Political Agendas. Your quote from FDR speaks volumes about the problem. Both sides are wrong IMO. Unions support the Democrats and Corporations support the Republicans. The whole concept of Civil (Civilian Services) has been obliterated. It is now more like 2 crime families fighting each other.... the Gambino(democrats) vs. the Soprano(republicans). Each side is trying to cheat the public at the large.

RJ
02-24-2011, 08:37 PM
Slapout,

Your "Mafia Gangs" opinion it a bit simplistic.

Which party in your opinion, is more capable of sorting out the mess?

I don't see any third party being adroit enough to make the tough decisions to balance the federal budget and generate private sector jobs.

The current president is inept at foreign policy and out of touch with the realities of our monetary mess.

Two federal judges have rendered decisions and he has ignored them. The 7 year oil drilling moritorimum in the Gulf of mEXICO and the uncontitutionality of the Obama Care health plan. How many more laws will he flout or ignore before talk of impeachment becomes the biggest topic for the citizens of this nation?

I think last November was a wake up call for the tow major political parties. The "People" are getting mad and as Obama ignores them at his political power is falling away.

Some of the private sector unions are starting to realize the public unions are recieving more in pay and benefits than the private sector unions rank and file.

It's all about the money! The Stimulis money sent to the states by the dems for shovel ready projects was spent retaining public sector state employees. Those public employees large monthly dues payments to their Unions, are being funneled back to the Democrats as contributions.

slapout9
02-25-2011, 12:36 AM
It's all about the money!

I agree with most of what say so I will focus on where I disagree.

1-Neither party can fix the situation which is why I think we are heading for some type of major Civil Disturbance(Revolution/Revolt/Insurrection) within a year or two.

2-Most State budgets that I know of are required to have balanced budgets. The Federal Government does not, also the Federal Government has the Legal authority to create money, state governments do not. That puts far more pressure on State Governments than the Feds. So as you say it is all about the money.

3-Find a copy of the Dodd-Frank Bill. In there you will find that the estimated cost of the Bank bailout is between 12 and 20 Trillion.....12 and 20 Trillion!! Started under Bush the second and continued under Obama the first. The exact total is unknown because the Federal Reserve cannot be audited (has never been audited) because they are a Private Bank and Congress does not have that authority. They did agree to a one time "quick look" which is how we finally got to see the numbers that appeared in the Dodd-Frank bill.

4-Obama dosen't have any Political power....except in his mind. I say he is a one term wonder.

Fuchs
02-25-2011, 01:15 AM
To (1): 1-2 years sounds awfully short, I've been told similar things by Americans since 2007 and stay sceptical. A lost/wasted decade (in regard to economic development, society development and political reforms) looks most likely to me. It'll end when economic and political reality and perceptions become much better aligned than during the last thirty years.

To (2): That's why the deficit was mostly concentrated on the federal level by sending "stimulus" money to the states.

To (3): There are bits and bytes in the computer systems of the financial sector at an astonishing level, but the real expenses were certainly less than a trillion, and even including all kinds of costs, at most a few trillions. A greater transfer would have been visible by now as (even more) incredible big bank profits.
The bailout (taxpayer money and invented Fed money) was roughly on the same order of monetary cost as the Iraq War was afaik.

To (4): He's got his veto power left and can play foreign politics.

RJ
02-25-2011, 06:02 AM
The Dodd-Frank bill is a charade. The Congressional record shows Bush II requested Congress slow down the Fannie Mae and Freddi Mac
give away 17 times. Dodd and Frank as the chairmen of their houses financial committee Pooh-poohed his requests. Why do you think Dodd retired instead of running for another term. He was toast. Frank bearly squeeked by a challand in MA in Nov.

The F-M and FMac appointees padded the numbers to increase their personal annual bonus's. Dodd and Frank brought them before their committees and yelled at them. Big Deal. They still walked away much richer than they came to their appointed positions. They should be breaking rocks some where hot and nasty. And that goes for the dadd and Frank vaudville duo as well.

What about all of the unfunded federal mandates that passed on the costs of medicare tot he states. The Obama Care bill tripples down on that unfunded mandate cost to the states.

You are correct, the states can not print their own money, and I haven't heard of seen any info in the media that the any state is contemplating printing money. The feds are printing money with zero sustenance in our coffers and China is holding our paper.

Nov., 2010 was step One in slowing down the train wreck. Obama and Pelosi ran the deficiet up so fast in the first two years that they spent more money tat all of the Presidents from George Washington to Linden Johnson. Nov., 2012 will confim you prediction that Obama is a one term wonder.

The fight that is going on now in NY, NJ, OH, WI, CA and IN to get a handle of the over spending is a positive action. James Webb of VA has announced the will not be running for a second term. He knows that being a democrat in VA in this climate is a no win situation. I respect him and believe he is one of the more clearheaded politicans in the nation. He was a hell of a Marine and his son is one two.

You and I and the others on this board will have to see how this current crisis plays out. Blood in the streets? I doubt it!

The majority of us here are current or former US Military. Can anyone see the US Military turning on the citizens of the US and killing them at the whim of politican? I can't see it happening. And the State NG's have fought the good fight since 9/11/01 and I don't see them becoming
some demigods muscle in the near or far future.

RJ
02-25-2011, 06:20 AM
FUCHS - most of the bank bailout money signed by Bush II has been paid back by the banks with interest.

The Stimulis has only spnt a third of the final funding, the rest is being held in a slush fund by the Dems. They lost the House of Representatives last November and that is the portion of our government that authorized the expenditure of money.
I see signs that the Senate will be voting on the reduction of cost along the lines of the cost cutting vote in the House of Reps. If passed Obama has the power to veto it. Then the question will be, does he have the guts to do it! Vetos can be over turned by Congress and the People are engaged and mad at the wild spending spree they have seen in the past two years.

The more they see the costs and the restrictions in the Health Care Bill and the fact that most of the stimulis money spent so far has been to bolster the public union employees while thousands if not millions of other citizens are losing they homes to forclosure and million of private sector jobs have been lost, the stronger the pressure will be to stop the spending, reduce the size of government and generate jobs.

The government is broke. State and Federal spending must be slowed down. Less taxes across the board and a common sense look at the thousands of regulations that have been added to the burden of the private sector have to be eleminated.

Gentlemen, If you can get a transcript of Gov. Christie's Budget Speech
on Tuesday, I suggest you read it word for word. It is a blueprint for turning NJ around and setting it on a different course.

Fuchs
02-25-2011, 10:33 AM
FUCHS - most of the bank bailout money signed by Bush II has been paid back by the banks with interest.

The Stimulis has only spnt a third of the final funding, the rest is being held in a slush fund by the Dems. They lost the House of Representatives last November and that is the portion of our government that authorized the expenditure of money.

The real bailout wasn't the official one, but the free money from the Fed that was given to the banks, deposited by the banks at the Fed and Fed pays interest on it. It's a gift and it's substantial in size (but can be cancelled quite quickly).


The Stimulus was in part about tax rebates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Stimulus_Act_of_2008#Tax_rebates).

slapout9
02-25-2011, 01:26 PM
RJ, they haven't paid back anything and probably never will. Listen to Karl Denninger on what really happened. The clip is from DEC 2010.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDXVHB015xo&feature=related

RJ
02-25-2011, 01:29 PM
Fuchs - I hate to break it to you but your reference is not the Stimulis Bill that President Obama and the democrat controlled congress push thru in 2009.

Your reference is the a tax rebate bill that has nothing to do with the TARP Bill that was signed by President Bush in the last 3 months of his 2nd term. We all received $250.00 to invigorate the economy on the bill you are referencing. It was proposed and voted on during the months before the 2008, November Election. Senator Obama voted for the the bill you referenced. The money in that bill was loaned to the Banks and almost all of the loans ahave been repaid by the banks, and the TARP Bill while he was still running for the Presidency.

The Stimuluis Bill signed by Obama is larger than the TARP Bill and it had not payback provisions in it. That's what the noise in my country is all about.

Every republican member of Congress voted against that bill and only 3 republican senators voted for the Obama bill.

No wonder your posts seems out of step with the situation. You have been using the wrong intelligene source.

You need to read the information on The American Recovery and Reinvestmet Act of 2009. It was signed by President Obama on Feb. 18, 2009. $887 billion dollars.

RJ
02-25-2011, 01:39 PM
slapout, you rascal! Very Funny! I hope you know who doesn't latch on to that performance and think it is true.

slapout9
02-25-2011, 01:53 PM
slapout, you rascal! Very Funny! I hope you know who doesn't latch on to that performance and think it is true.

Is it the guy who had a Mo-Town party in the WH last night;)

Fuchs
02-25-2011, 02:25 PM
@RJ: You mentioned bailout and stimulus; TARP is bailout, but stimulus is what I wrote about.

I separated both with two empty lines, for both were very different things (and in my opinion both were poor ideas).

RJ
02-25-2011, 05:31 PM
FUCHS - your stimulis is not the same as Obama's stimulis.

His stimulis cost 887 Billion dollars. Your post on tax rebates is a stimulis that was sent out to taxpayers to invogorate the economy. $250.00 per taxpayer. The TARP Bill on 2008 was money loaned to Banks to stabilize the US Banking industry. It worked and the majority of those banks who were helped by TARP have paid back their loans with interest.

The STIMULIS BILL President Obama signed into law was supposed to generate jobs, and reduce unemployment. IT did neither. Wasted money and a 9.8% unemployment was one of the reasons the Republicans won the House majority last November. That and the rammed thru Health Care Bill that Nancy Pelosi said thise famouse words. "Now that the health care bill is passed we all can read it and see what's in it."

Not a single republican congressman or senator voted for the Health Care Bill. That bill has be ruled a unconstitutional by a federal judge.
The House is in the process of defunding that Trillion dollar boondoggle.

slapout9
02-25-2011, 05:45 PM
You and I and the others on this board will have to see how this current crisis plays out. Blood in the streets? I doubt it!

The majority of us here are current or former US Military. Can anyone see the US Military turning on the citizens of the US and killing them at the whim of politican? I can't see it happening. And the State NG's have fought the good fight since 9/11/01 and I don't see them becoming
some demigods muscle in the near or far future.


RJ,I am not talking about that kind of situation. Americans love the Military. I remember the 70's gas situation and yes there was blood in the streets on a small scale. Now advance to today where people are having their incomes cut and then you get a sharp spike in gas prices/food prices. Call it the pimple revolution sooner or later it goes pop!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF-NIIXDffE&feature=related

PS:I see you like Fishin. You need to come on down and we will go Fishin...we will fix all the world's problems to boot:)

Fuchs
02-25-2011, 05:46 PM
That one has a huge tax break as well.


The measures are nominally worth $787 billion. The Act includes federal tax incentives, expansion of unemployment benefits and other social welfare provisions, and domestic spending in education, health care, and infrastructure, including the energy sector.


Tax incentives

Total: $288 billion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulus_bill

This means that


The Stimulis has only spnt a third of the final funding, the rest is being held in a slush fund by the Dems.

is still wrong. 1/3 was tax 'incentives', already as much as was supposedly 'spent' total according to you. If you were right, not a single dime would have been actually spent so far. That's certainly untrue. I didn't even need to dig out the actual spending figures to see this.

RJ
02-25-2011, 07:44 PM
I'll just let you believe what you believe. I see there isn't a whole lot of wiggle in your position. Enjoy the weekend. It's 40 degrees F here in NJ and the forcast is for heavy rain and winds up to 50 mph tonight.

It might just flush or melt allthe snow. We haven't seen grass since Christmas.


slapout,

I do fish and can tell tall tales about the time I was a bonifide Texas Snow Goose Guide on the Rice Prarie near Eagle Lake. Those LA gunners always took a double look when they heard my NY City accent.:wry:

Y'all have a good weekend.

slapout9
02-25-2011, 07:54 PM
I was a bonifide Texas Snow Goose Guide on the Rice Prarie near Eagle Lake. Those LA gunners always took a double look when they heard my NY City accent.:wry:

Y'all have a good weekend.

Oh I gotta here that story! 70 degrees with Sunshine here.

RJ
02-27-2011, 05:32 AM
Whenever a coonass asked what the hell is a NY City Yankee doing Goose Guiding in Texas, I politely remarked -"I'm down her to teach you people how to shoot!"

When the fool axe'd "What the hell do you mean by that?"

I reminded him that "You did lose that war, and my Gread Grand Daddy was a Sgt. In the 88th Infantry of the NY Vols. "Irish Brigade"!

At about that time my ponyo, Charles W.Stephens, III a.k.a. "Porkey"
would step in and advise the guys from Hackberry, LA that I cam from good stock!

We all sat an giggled at each other over a second helping of grits with a little straberry preserve mixed in with a dash of pepper, salt and a dash of Cayanne pepper sauce.

When I get to Slap Out, AL I'll buy you the first round, and tell y'all about Porkey!

His Momma's family owned the power company in Little Rock and he and I were Recon Squad leaders in 2nd Recon Bn, 2nd Mar. Div. early in the 1960's. Porkey did a little bidness at the Bay of Pigs.

Semper Fi Brother . I'll let you know when I'm commin!

slapout9
02-28-2011, 03:36 AM
When I get to Slap Out, AL I'll buy you the first round, and tell y'all about Porkey!
His Momma's family owned the power company in Little Rock and he and I were Recon Squad leaders in 2nd Recon Bn, 2nd Mar. Div. early in the 1960's. Porkey did a little bidness at the Bay of Pigs.



Sounds good. Never can tell I might know Porkey or he may know some of my Kin folks.;)

slapout9
02-28-2011, 03:59 PM
Link to post on another thread about food,energy and security. This is the type of revolution that may be coming our way doesn't have anything to do with Reps or Dems or Budgets or religion or Beliefs of any kind. It is simply going to be about physical resources for survival and what happens when you can't afford it or can't get it:eek:people will fight.



http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=116442&postcount=120

AdamG
02-28-2011, 06:42 PM
State Rep. Daniel Itse (R) of Fremont, N.H., wants to create a volunteer "permanent state defense force," separate from the New Hampshire National Guard, to assist with disaster relief and "defend the state against invasion." The legislation would require Gov. John Lynch to establish a state guard comprising an undetermined number of volunteers who sign up for one-year stints. It would have an "inactive reserve" made up of all able-bodied adult state residents, with exemptions for conscientious objectors, state and federal officials and others.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/state-a-local-politics/145461-the-new-dominion-new-hampshire-state-rep-calls-for-state-defense-force

RJ
03-01-2011, 04:19 AM
It looks like the good congresswoman doesn't trust the NHNG. I wonder what she thinks about the Army Reserve and the Naval Milita in her state?

I'm surprised a Republican is taking this tack.

82redleg
03-01-2011, 10:27 AM
It looks like the good congresswoman doesn't trust the NHNG. I wonder what she thinks about the Army Reserve and the Naval Milita in her state?

I'm surprised a Republican is taking this tack.

Or she just wants to have something that can't be mobilized and sent out of the state. Lots of states have SDFs- the Texas State Guard, the California State Military Reserve, and the New York Guard, to name a few.
http://www.txsg.state.tx.us/
http://www.calguard.ca.gov/casmr/Pages/default.aspx
http://dmna.state.ny.us/nyg/nyg.php

There is nothing in the US Constitution that prohibits the states from maintaining a military force. What the NH state constitution says, I don't know, but this is hardly something new. According to the State Guard Association of the US, 23 of the 50 states have one http://www.sgaus.org/states/active-state-forces.html

AdamG
03-01-2011, 01:38 PM
Nation of Islam leader Minister Louis Farrakhan predicted on Sunday that America faces imminent uprisings that mirror those in the Middle East.

“What you are looking at in Tunisia, in Egypt … Libya, in Bahrain … what you see happening there … you’d better prepare because it will be coming to your door,” Farrakhan said in a booming voice, thousands of followers cheering in his wake.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/news/local/chibrknews-farrakhan-mideast-uprisings-will-come-to-us-20110227,0,1665375.story

AdamG
03-01-2011, 01:45 PM
It looks like the good congresswoman doesn't trust the NHNG. I wonder what she thinks about the Army Reserve and the Naval Milita in her state?

I'm surprised a Republican is taking this tack.

'cause the rules say she can, and the 'militia' specifically exclude members of the National Guard or Naval Militia.


TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311
§ 311. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 15 > § 332
§ 332. Use of militia and armed forces to enforce Federal authority
Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State or Territory by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.

NH [Art.] 24. [Militia.] A well regulated militia is the proper, natural, and sure defense, of a state.

Supporting legislation:
NH CHAPTER 110-B
THE MILITIA
Section 110-B:1
110-B:1 Composition of the Militia. –
I. The militia shall be divided into 3 classes, namely the national guard, the state guard, and the unorganized militia.
II. The national guard shall consist of an army national guard, an air national guard, and an inactive national guard. As used in this chapter, the term "national guard" shall mean and refer to the army national guard and the air national guard unless otherwise indicated.
III. The state guard shall consist of those persons serving in accordance with the provisions of RSA 111.
IV. The unorganized militia shall consist of all able-bodied residents of the state who are 18 years of age or older, who are, or have declared their intention to become, citizens of the United States, and who are not serving in the national guard or the state guard.
V. When authorized by the laws and regulations of the United States, there shall be an additional section of the state guard to be known as the New Hampshire naval militia.

NH CHAPTER 110-B
THE MILITIA
Section 110-B:2
110-B:2 Commander-in-Chief; Regulations. – The governor shall be the commander-in-chief of the militia and is hereby authorized to issue regulations for the organization and government thereof. Such regulations shall have the same force and effect as the provisions of this chapter, but they shall conform to the laws and regulations of the United States relating to the organization, discipline, and training of the militia, to the provisions of this chapter and, as nearly as practicable, to the laws and regulations governing the army and air force of the United States. The regulations in force at the time of the passage of this chapter shall remain in force until new regulations are issued.

NH CHAPTER 110-B
THE MILITIA
Section 110-B:3
110-B:3 Registration and Draft of Unorganized Militia. –
I. Whenever it shall be deemed necessary, the governor may direct the members of the unorganized militia to present themselves for and submit to registration at such time and place and in such manner as the governor may prescribe in regulations issued pursuant to this chapter.
II. Whenever it shall be necessary in case of invasion, disaster, insurrection, riot, breach of the peace, or imminent danger thereof, or to maintain the national guard at the number required for public safety or prescribed by the laws of the United States, the governor may call for and accept from the unorganized militia as many volunteers as are required for service in the national guard, or the governor may direct the members of the unorganized militia or such of them as may be necessary to be drafted into the national guard.

AdamG
03-02-2011, 03:03 PM
State Sen. Bill Ketron, R-Murfreesboro, has filed a senate joint resolution to study whether Tennessee should adopt its own currency in case of a breakdown of the federal reserve system.
http://blogs.tennessean.com/politics/2011/sen-ketron-tn-should-study-creating-alternative-to-federal-currency/

Oh boy. The bands are starting up again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjOIFGrYtaE

anonamatic
03-03-2011, 01:59 AM
America has revolutions in the voting booth. That's how we do it. All the semi-survivalist end times crap is just that, a load of crap. If you want to do it with guns you're being seditious and disloyal at the very least, and you'll get put down hard. It's not even a good idea to flirt with those ideas, because when you treat them like a fun shiny toy you stop rationally looking at better options, instead all you look at is the fun shiny toy. That toy's a lot of fun right up until everyone starts dying because people are being stupid. The one thing the US civil war taught us is that killing each other is a bad idea under any circumstance, and wholly unnecessary. Things were decided in that war, important things, and people don't get to revisit them and renegotiate the outcome through violence. We have better options than that, we learned that much at least. The sort of options that can be found in a democracy where people vote.

I think the next revolution will come when instead of %60 percent of people not voting, that more than %60 vote. Voting and peaceful political participation are a part of what makes up being a good American, and keeping the values the country was built on. It's not found in selective political fundamentalism, it's not found by ignoring the present and only looking at the words you want to read from the country's founding either. That path of radical extremism is a path of ignorance and failure.

AdamG
03-03-2011, 01:08 PM
America has revolutions in the voting booth. That's how we do it. All the semi-survivalist end times crap is just that, a load of crap. If you want to do it with guns you're being seditious and disloyal at the very least, and you'll get put down hard. It's not even a good idea to flirt with those ideas, because when you treat them like a fun shiny toy you stop rationally looking at better options, instead all you look at is the fun shiny toy. That toy's a lot of fun right up until everyone starts dying because people are being stupid. The one thing the US civil war taught us is that killing each other is a bad idea under any circumstance, and wholly unnecessary. Things were decided in that war, important things, and people don't get to revisit them and renegotiate the outcome through violence. We have better options than that, we learned that much at least. The sort of options that can be found in a democracy where people vote.

Who exactly are you lecturing?


I think the next revolution will come when instead of %60 percent of people not voting, that more than %60 vote. .

Good luck with American Apathy.

AdamG
03-03-2011, 11:43 PM
It's been nearly 80 years since the U.S. stopped using gold coins as legal currency, and nearly 40 since the world abandoned the gold standard, but the precious metal could be making a comeback in the United States -- beginning in Utah.

The Utah House was to vote as early as Thursday on legislation that would recognize gold and silver coins issued by the federal government as legal currency in the state. The coins would not replace the current paper currency but would be used and accepted voluntarily as an alternative.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/03/utah-considers-return-gold-silver-coins/

anonamatic
03-06-2011, 02:04 PM
Who exactly are you lecturing?

Good luck with American Apathy.

Probably some of the folks earlier in the thread who were being fairly literal about revolution...

I think apathy is starting to bottom out with the economic pressure in the US. I may be wrong though. Media in the country, and the press, is really screwed up right now.

slapout9
03-08-2011, 12:37 AM
600 protesters took over the lobby of a Washington,D.C. Branch of Bank of America today. link to video below.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xVGkH4HiYo&feature=player_embedded

anonamatic
03-08-2011, 02:58 AM
600 protesters took over the lobby of a Washington,D.C. Branch of Bank of America today. link to video below.
[/url]

Well hey looks like I was wrong about the level of discontent present.

AdamG
03-08-2011, 01:05 PM
Federal authorities are seeing an increase in the number of foreclosed and unoccupied homes in metro Atlanta being seized by members of an anti-government group.

"I'm not sure I can connect it with the economy, but we've seen a surge of these in the last year, in particular," Stephen Emmett, special agent in the Atlanta field office of the FBI, said Saturday. Emmet said federal and local authorities increasingly are running into confrontations with members of a sect known as "sovereign citizens."

The group believes banks can't own land or property and that any home owned by a bank -- including the thousands of foreclosed properties throughout Georgia -- are theirs for the taking.

http://www.ajc.com/news/clayton/fbi-sovereign-citizen-cases-861611.html

Ken White
03-08-2011, 04:25 PM
I wonder who's doing the organizing...

Fuchs
03-08-2011, 04:57 PM
It's called "main stream movement" afaik.


I wonder why attac failed to shine in this economic crisis...

slapout9
03-09-2011, 04:39 PM
I wonder who's doing the organizing...


Ken, here is one of them. Link to Dylan Radigan interview.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/41975780#41975780

Ken White
03-09-2011, 08:46 PM
Ken, here is one of them. Link to Dylan Radigan interview.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/41975780#41975780I'd call that a panel of Agitators, not organizers, don't think they're capable of that. Though they apparently believe what the organizers have to say... ;)

AdamG
03-11-2011, 04:44 PM
MADISON - The State Department of Justice confirms that it is investigating several death threats against a number of lawmakers in response to the legislature's move to strip employees of many collective bargaining rights.

Among the threats the Justice Department is investigationg is one that was emailed to Republican Senators Wednesday night. Newsradio 620 WTMJ has obtained that email.

The following is the unedited email:

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/117732923.html

RJ
03-11-2011, 05:16 PM
The Republican Senate out manuevered the Democrate missing links who fled to Illinois by putting the contract barganing verbage in a seperate law. The wailing and nashing of teeth by the pols who pushed thru the Obama Health Care Bill is most amusing.

The Federal Government doesn't allow "collective bargaining" and about a dozen States have laws against it as well.

I think tactically, the Dems and the Public Unions who give them large chunks of money have screwed the pooch on this issue by making Wisconsin a Battleground for this protests.

The scene's of the protesters breaking into and being hauled out of the state capital building are sending the wrong message. Death threats to WI republican politicians are giving them the win. The American People are getting a look at the same or stronger measures currently being moved thru other state governments and no protests or death threats being made.

The entitlement mentality of the public union leadership is being exposed and they are not looking good to the majority watching the action.

I believe the Apathy Level is being reduced. It started last year, cause the turn around in the House of Representatives last November and with the sillyness going on in Wisconsin it is broading the base and creating a more active and conservative American voter.

Just my humble opinion of course! :rolleyes:

I recommend y'all read the editorial in Investors Business Daily today.

"Wisconsin has it's PATCO Moment" (added by Mod):http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/565648/201103101851/States-Patco.htm

anonamatic
03-13-2011, 05:56 AM
"Wisconsin has it's PATCO Moment" (added by Mod):http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/565648/201103101851/States-Patco.htm

Unlike the Air Traffic Controllers, teachers can vote with their feet. Part of what makes people be "the best and the brightest" is knowing when to move on to better circumstances. Wisconsin is playing race to the bottom, and the bottom looks like Mississippi. No one's rushing to work as a teacher there based on their results for sure. I don't think you should be so smug yet. It's quite likely that there is more change yet to come, and these laws may well not stand.

RJ
03-14-2011, 03:48 AM
I'm not smug at all. And I think you are shistling in the dark about teachers voting with their feet. The is no shortage in teachers except in rural and low paying locations. There are thousands of young graduates from universities with Masters in Education that are living with their parents, or working in another field because the teaching jobs bucket is over full.

When a state reaches the point where they are out of money because of past administrations giveaways and the public servants are being paid more than the people who pay the taxes to pay them their higher wages, adjustments must be made.

I'm a strong believer in putting the highing and firing of teachers back in the hands of Principles. Not School Boards who think that the tax payer will pay antthing they agree to pay teachers, administrators and other non-teaching administrative positions. A $300,000 per year school administrator for a single high school is abusing the privleged of working for a days pay.

I don't have a problem with teachers, but I do have a problem with a teacher who by seniority and doesn't give a crap anymore about the children she is responsible to teach coming to work every day and punishing the kids with silly acts of power. Any prinicpal who has the power to hire and fire teachers would dump the inneffective and bitter long time teacher and retain a younger and more talented and motivated teacher. None of them have the power to do that anymore.

I went to high school in the early 1950's. There was the principle, his secretary and a file clerk. No school administrators, or assist school administrators and their staffs of 4 and 5 other clerical types pulling down sallaries that started at $60 k a year.

No whining about class sizes that were bigger than 23 students was ever heard in the 1950. Grade schools in the years following WWII had classed in grade school of 50 or more kids in a room. NY City is talking about laying off 6,200 young teachers whilst they pay 2,200 to come to Rubber Rooms to play cards, watch TV or run side businesses by computer because they are unfit to teach, but the City of NY can't fire them.

The Mayor of NY City is trying to get the NY State Government to eleminate
tenure and allow his schools keep the good teachers and lay off those who are below standard.

Can you name any other job as important as a teacher of our children that isn't subject to an annual or bi-annual review? Nurse's, Cops, Firemen, and the other uniform services all have to meet physical and ability standards in most cities. Airline pilots, truckdrivers, train crews and electric power and gas workers are all held to standards. Why not teachers?

AdamG
03-15-2011, 02:13 PM
Widespread civil violence inside the United States would force the defense establishment to reorient priorities in extremis to defend basic domestic order and human security. Deliberate employment of weapons of mass destruction or other catastrophic capabilities, unforeseen economic collapse, loss of functioning political and legal order, purposeful domestic resistance or insurgency, pervasive public health emergencies, and catastrophic natural and human disasters are all paths to disruptive domestic shock.

An American government and defense establishment lulled into complacency by a long-secure domes-tic order would be forced to rapidly divest some or most external security commitments in order to address rapidly expanding human insecurity at home. Already predisposed to defer to the primacy of civilian authorities in instances of domestic security and divest all but the most extreme demands in areas like civil support and consequence management, DoD might be forced by circumstances to put its broad resources at the disposal of civil authorities to contain and reverse violent threats to domestic tranquility. Under the most extreme circumstances, this might include use of military force against hostile groups inside the United States. Further, DoD would be, by necessity, an essential enabling hub for the continuity of political authority in a multi-state or nationwide civil conflict or disturbance.

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB890.pdf



from Known Unknowns: Unconventional "Strategic Shocks" in Defense Strategy Development, Mr. Nathan P. Freier.

See also


Titled "Known Unknowns: Unconventional Strategic Shocks in Defense Strategy Development," the report warned that the U.S. military and intelligence community remain mired in the past as well as the need to accommodate government policy. Freier, a former Pentagon official, said that despite the Al Qaida surprise in 2001 U.S. defense strategy and planning remain trapped by "excessive convention."

"The current administration confronted a game-changing 'strategic shock' inside its first eight months in office," the report said. "The next administration would be well-advised to expect the same during the course of its first term. Indeed, the odds are very high against any of the challenges routinely at the top of the traditional defense agenda triggering the next watershed inside DoD [Department of Defense]."
Historically, defense strategy demonstrates three flaws: (1) it is generally reactive, (2) it lacks sufficient strategic imagination, and (3) as a result, it is vulnerable to surprise. The current administration confronted a game-changing “strategic shock” in its first 8 months in office. The next team would be well-advised to expect the same kind of unconventional and nonmilitary shock to DoD convention early in its first term.

The report cited the collapse of what Freier termed "a large capable state that results in a nuclear civil war." Such a prospect could lead to uncontrolled weapons of mass destruction proliferation as well as a nuclear war.

The report cited the prospect of a breakdown of order in the United States. Freier said the Pentagon could be suddenly forced to recall troops from abroad to fight domestic unrest.


http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2008/ss_military0790_12_15.asp

AdamG
03-20-2011, 12:44 AM
Luckily for the Republic, 'von NotHaus' is impossible to work into lyrics.



STATESVILLE, NC—Bernard von NotHaus, 67, was convicted today by a federal jury of making, possessing, and selling his own coins, announced Anne M. Tompkins, U.S. Attorney for the Western District of North Carolina. Following an eight-day trial and less than two hours of deliberation, von NotHaus, the founder and monetary architect of a currency known as the Liberty Dollar, was found guilty by a jury in Statesville, North Carolina, of making coins resembling and similar to United States coins; of issuing, passing, selling, and possessing Liberty Dollar coins; of issuing and passing Liberty Dollar coins intended for use as current money; and of conspiracy against the United States.

http://charlotte.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel11/ce031811.htm

AdamG
03-25-2011, 12:21 PM
Foes of illegal immigration are up in arms over plans for a weekend disaster exercise in western Iowa with a fictitious scenario in which young white supremacists shoot dozens of people amid rising tensions involving racial minorities and illegal immigrants.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20110324/NEWS/110324009/Critics-Iowa-terror-drill-portrays-immigration-foes-as-killers?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

Presley Cannady
03-28-2011, 02:00 AM
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20110324/NEWS/110324009/Critics-Iowa-terror-drill-portrays-immigration-foes-as-killers?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

Related:

1. Operation Closed Campus (PDF ([url=http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/ExPlan_03222011.pdf)).
2. PCEMA announces the exercise's cancellation (PDF (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.treynor.k12.ia.us%2Fex cancel%2520media%2520release.pdf))

Given the obvious political implications, officials handled this poorly from the get-go.

Sergeant T
04-15-2011, 07:02 PM
Another Tiabbi article that raises some interesting points (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-real-housewives-of-wall-street-look-whos-cashing-in-on-the-bailout-20110411).


As crazy as it is to lend to banks at near zero percent and borrow back from them at three percent, one could at least argue that the policy may have aided American companies by providing banks more cash to lend. But how do you explain the host of other bailout transactions now being examined by Congress? Like the Fed's massive purchases of securities in foreign automakers, including BMW, Volkswagen, Honda, Mitsubishi and Nissan? Or the nearly $5 billion in cheap credit the Fed extended to Toyota and Mitsubishi? Sure, those companies have factories and dealerships in the U.S. — but does it really make sense to give them free cash at the same time taxpayers were being asked to bail out Chrysler and GM? Seems a little crazy to fund the competition of the very automakers you're trying to rescue.

...

And at a time when America is borrowing from the Middle East at interest rates of three percent, why did the Fed extend $35 billion in loans to the Arab Banking Corporation of Bahrain at interest rates as low as one quarter of one point? Even more disturbing, the major stakeholder in the Bahrain bank is none other than the Central Bank of Libya, which owns 59 percent of the operation. In fact, the Bahrain bank just received a special exemption from the U.S. Treasury to prevent its assets from being frozen in accord with economic sanctions. That's right: Muammar Qaddafi received more than 70 loans from the Federal Reserve, along with the Real Housewives of Wall Street.




Just wish he didn't work for Rolling Stone.

slapout9
04-17-2011, 05:19 PM
Seen from the movie where Dagny Taggart Confronts the Unions.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8MVFoiw-dw&feature=related

Who Is John Galt?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W07bFa4TzM&feature=related

gute
05-01-2011, 03:44 PM
I read some weeks ago that Unified Quest would take a look at the current structure of the BCT and most likely make recommendations regarding changes to the organization/structure - anyone have some info on that?

Presley Cannady
05-01-2011, 05:42 PM
Wisconsin is playing race to the bottom, and the bottom looks like Mississippi.

Exactly what does Mississippi look like on a Gaussian?

AdamG
05-22-2011, 01:24 PM
SWJ Over/Under Betting Board : 1. how long will the visit from the Secret Service be? 2. How soon will the IRS audit Fonda?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/8528327/Cannes-2011-Peter-Fonda-encourages-his-grandchildren-to-take-up-arms-against-President-Barack-Obama.html


Peter Fonda, the star of Easy Rider, suggested to Mandrake that he was encouraging his grandchildren to shoot President Barack Obama.

“I’m training my grandchildren to use long-range rifles,” said the actor, 71. “For what purpose? Well, I’m not going to say the words 'Barack Obama’, but …”

He added, enigmatically: “It’s more of a thought process than an actuality, but we are heading for a major conflict between the haves and the have nots. I came here many years ago with a biker movie and we stopped a war. Now, it’s about starting the world.

“I prefer to not to use the words, 'let’s stop something’. I prefer to say, 'let’s start something, let’s start the world’.

slapout9
05-22-2011, 02:10 PM
Dr. Paul Craig Roberts (former under secretary of the treasury under Reagan) clip starts with part 2 at the end you can go to part 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX7M3w02Bfw&feature=player_embedded#at=33

slapout9
05-22-2011, 02:12 PM
SWJ Over/Under Betting Board : 1. how long will the visit from the Secret Service be? 2. How soon will the IRS audit Fonda?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/8528327/Cannes-2011-Peter-Fonda-encourages-his-grandchildren-to-take-up-arms-against-President-Barack-Obama.html

1-Pretty quick, Secret Service stays up on that kind of stuff.
2-I believe he has been through the IRS thing before.

anna
05-29-2011, 04:35 PM
A 'revolution' will NOT happen in the CUNUS anymore!
there may be some local unrests, e.g. student riotes, coloured gangs,
a few nutcases such as the Montana 'Free Man' making a 'stand'....

the rank and file citizen is to lazy, too fat, too wealthy (relative),
too wrapped up in their own personal lives and problems.
It is easy to complain on a forum or by beer on the back poarch or bar, getting up and doing it is a different story!

Don't get your hopes up!

AdamG
06-07-2011, 03:34 PM
Who ever thought the saying, “It’s the economy stupid,” from James Carville in 1992 would become a staple in presidential elections 20 years later?

That expression made its way into the campaign in 2008, and according to Carville, it could be the theme of the 2012 campaign as well as President Barack Obama seeks reelection. In an appearance on Monday’s “Imus in the Morning” on the Fox Business Network, the former Clinton adviser said that, based on the May jobs number, if the unemployment picture doesn’t improve, 2012 could be rough for the president.

*


But Carville said the consequences aren’t limited to politics alone. He warned of heightened risk of civil unrest with the bleak economic picture.

“You know, look — this is a humanitarian — you know, you’re smart enough to see this,” Carville said. “People, you know, if it continues, we’re going to start to see civil unrest in this country. I hate to say that, but I think it’s imminently possible.”

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/06/06/carville-2012-could-be-very-rough-for-obama-says-civil-unrest-imminently-possible/#ixzz1ObYnHeZw

slapout9
06-13-2011, 05:51 AM
Link to CNN report.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7QnwYwHQIM&feature=player_embedded

davidbfpo
06-13-2011, 09:47 AM
Not a comment on the situation in the USA, but Ireland. I particularly liked this option, which i expect could be done elsewhere and be popular:
National survival requires that Ireland walk away from the bailout. This in turn requires the Government to do two things: disengage from the banks, and bring its budget into balance immediately.

Fascinating and detailed article, rarely seen IMHO:http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0507/1224296372123.html

Now taking a wider, Western perspective. For a number of reasons there is a growing and significant disconnect between the public and government - in which the 'banking crisis' is one large factor. Much of banking relies on confidence, declining confidence as one international banker told me means trouble and "it's all hands to the pump". For the Western public they must have faith in their government(s), that has simply been dribbling away and of late evaporating.

It is strange to observe the 'traditional' left in parts of Europe and the 'radical' right looking ahead - spotting the same issues, such as 'big' government is going wrong.

I am mindful this is not a politics discussion board and will stop.

AdamG
06-13-2011, 06:43 PM
Interesting how the same question is being asked, all across the American political spectrum.

America’s Coming Civil Unrest? H.R. 645: National Emergency Centers Establishment Act.
theCL 2010-10-13 America, Economic, Survival

http://the-classic-liberal.com/america-coming-civil-unrest-h-r-645-national-emergency-centers-establishment-act/



There’s so much uncertainty and anger over so many things – California’s budget cuts, civilian trials for 9/11 terrorists, scandal after scandal in Washington and of course, ObamaCare – that a little civil unrest in the coming months wouldn’t surprise me.

Strong words. Of course, it’s not something I want to see. Those of us who grew up watching TV in the late sixties and seventies have had our fill of strikes, riots and general chaos. It’s not a society we want for our children.

But history doesn’t care about what we want. It just happens…
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2010/03/08/mean-street-americas-coming-civil-unrest/

motorfirebox
06-14-2011, 03:31 PM
Interesting how the same question is being asked, all across the American political spectrum.

America’s Coming Civil Unrest? H.R. 645: National Emergency Centers Establishment Act.
theCL 2010-10-13 America, Economic, Survival

http://the-classic-liberal.com/america-coming-civil-unrest-h-r-645-national-emergency-centers-establishment-act/



http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2010/03/08/mean-street-americas-coming-civil-unrest/
It's possible, but there have been rumblings about civil unrest "in the coming months" for years.

slapout9
06-14-2011, 05:02 PM
Max Kesier Interview, in his usual entertaining style :Dbut he raises some good points.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls0
IapIGhjg&feature=player_embedded#at=574

AdamG
06-14-2011, 07:45 PM
It's possible, but there have been rumblings about civil unrest "in the coming months" for years.

Yup, 'wars and rumors of war' but that's part of the fun of this forum : weeding out the spikes in weirdness from the usual sine wave of fear & loathing (see also "most likely and most dangerous threats").



MISSOULA, Mont. — Federal and state agents are searching a 30-square-mile swath of rugged Montana forest for a former militia leader following a shootout with sheriff's deputies, authorities said.
David Burgert, 47, exchanged gunfire with Missoula County sheriff's deputies along a logging trail Sunday after a slow-speed chase near Lolo, officials said. No one was hurt.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43389933/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/?GT1=43001

motorfirebox
06-15-2011, 12:51 AM
Yup, 'wars and rumors of war' but that's part of the fun of this forum : weeding out the spikes in weirdness from the usual sine wave of fear & loathing (see also "most likely and most dangerous threats").
True. And to be honest, most of the times I've heard those predictions I've nodded and said, "Yeah, probably."

slapout9
06-16-2011, 04:13 PM
"The Prophets Of Doom" is on HBO tonight, check your local listings. I highly,highly,highly recommend you watch this. It is not your normal Nostradamus 2012 end of the world stuff. More of a hard nosed Civil-Engineering approach to our problems. But I admit, I am biased this was done by a former LAPD Detective:) He uses the Joe Friday method......"Just The Facts Mam."


If you caint watch it here is a link to lower quality version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gi53kq4vzY&feature=related

AdamG
07-02-2011, 06:58 PM
RIVERSIDE (CBS) — Is the state of California about to go “South”? Riverside County Supervisor Jeff Stone apparently thinks so, after proposing that the county lead a campaign for as many as 13 Southern California counties to secede from the state.

Stone said in a statement late Thursday that Riverside, Imperial, San Diego, Orange, San Bernardino, Kings, Kern, Fresno, Tulare, Inyo, Madera, Mariposa and Mono counties should form the new state of South California.

The creation of the new state would allow officials to focus on securing borders, balancing budgets, improving schools and creating a vibrant economy, he said.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/07/01/official-calls-for-riverside-12-other-counties-to-secede-from-california/

AdamG
08-17-2011, 01:42 PM
DUNCAN, Oklahoma -- An ex-marine and Oklahoma militia man sparks a nationwide manhunt. Law enforcement leaders say they're afraid he is heavily armed and will do something drastic.
http://www.news9.com/story/15272659/oklahoma-ex-marine-sparks-nationwide-manhunt

See also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86-PeQ-tVTA

AdamG
09-09-2011, 12:48 AM
Time for the SPLC to gin up the fear again.


FIFE LAKE, Michigan - Nearly 10 years after Sept. 11, security analysts say new threats are emerging from modern-day militias, whose members pack rifles and practice survival tactics preparing for eventual battle right in our own communities.
“The militias in effect are the … people (who) really specialize in engaging in paramilitary training in the woods and those kinds of things,” said Mark Potok, who studies militias for the Southern Poverty Law Center, a nonprofit civil rights organization in Montgomery, Ala.


Read more: http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/national/Homegrown-militias-on-the-rise-in-U.S.-since-911-what-are-their-intentions#ixzz1XPaxpdPN

Meanwhile, someone else is feeling neglected too.


Phoenix-based Nuestros Reconquistos claims that there will be a war very similar to the Civil War fought in the next five years. “La Raza and MEChA have already talked to Latinos and Phoenix and explained that Latinos need to arm themselves for war,” says Nuestros Reconquistos President Manuel Longoria.

http://moonbattery.com/?p=1807

jmm99
09-09-2011, 03:03 AM
you sucked me into this one - Fife Lake (near Traverse City) is almost Yooper (though still "Troll" since south of the Bridge :)).

I do know a number of people who are adept at explosives and have more than basic competence with firearms - the two most popular local military institutions in our four-county area have been the Sapper company and Navy CB unit. I know even more people who are very adept at the use of firearms - whether members of a number of local sportsmens clubs or not. NRA members (including myself as a Life member since the 1970s) abound.

That being said, I can honesty say that I don't personally know anyone who is a "militia member". A son of a friend of mine and my father (the friend being a BS recipient from WWII) may have been involved in a militia unit (non-violent) to the south of us (strictly from the media).

In short, Mr. Potok and his opinions do amuse me - when I see him on cable. But, I don't think Mr. Potok would like me or my friends.

Regards

Mike

Bob's World
09-09-2011, 10:23 AM
An armed populace is not a threat to a nation.

Government that seeks to oppress or disarm an armed populace is a threat to a nation.

The true "fourth branch" of government that keeps the other three from over-riding the checks and balances contained in the constitution. Every good bit of law needs to come with an enforcement function to make it work. That function for the constitution is an armed, informed populace that is free to assemble, vote, and speak their mind. Best part is, it doesn't cost the taxpayer a dime.

AdamG
09-09-2011, 03:59 PM
In short, Mr. Potok and his opinions do amuse me - when I see him on cable. But, I don't think Mr. Potok would like me or my friends.


Mr Potek & his friends have an unhealthy agenda behind their veil of good works. They wouldn't like me, either.

*

Meanwhile, file this under "No Charges".


LONGVIEW, Wash. (AP) — Hundreds of Longshoremen stormed the Port of Longview early Thursday, overpowered and held security guards, damaged railroad cars, and dumped grain that is the center of a labor dispute, said Longview Police Chief Jim Duscha.
Six guards were held hostage for a couple of hours after 500 or more Longshoremen broke down gates about 4:30 a.m. and smashed windows in the guard shack, he said.
No one was hurt, and nobody has been arrested. Most of the protesters returned to their union hall after cutting brake lines and spilling grain from car at the EGT terminal, Duscha said.

http://news.yahoo.com/longshoremen-storm-wash-state-port-damage-rr-144921214.html

Sergeant T
09-10-2011, 03:06 AM
A little better coverage in The Seattle Times (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016144477_longshoremen09m.html). That picture embedded in the story is worth 10,000 words. Curious thing is that both unions, the current one and the one the terminal operator wants to bring in, are under AFL-CIO. Going to set a bad precedent if no charges are filed above and beyond the initial arrests.

Bill Moore
09-11-2011, 02:41 AM
Our nation has a long history of violent labor protests, often initiated by unions, but with the mood of the country nation wide I can see this spreading if it is not effectively suppressed. I also can't help but wonder if some folks in the White House aren't cheering this on to achieve political objectives.

motorfirebox
09-11-2011, 03:11 PM
Union violence nowadays is particularly problematic because it's a sign of weakening power, not increasing power. With higher union membership, there would be less incitement to violence because those who would benefit from union activities would be able to achieve their goals through non-violent means. But union membership, as I understand it, is down and shrinking, which leads to violence because those goals can't be met.

Marc
09-11-2011, 03:15 PM
Our nation has a long history of violent labor protests, often initiated by unions, but with the mood of the country nation wide I can see this spreading if it is not effectively suppressed. I also can't help but wonder if some folks in the White House aren't cheering this on to achieve political objectives.

Why would some folks in the White House cheer this on and how would they achieve their political objectives by doing that?

AdamG
09-12-2011, 01:35 PM
Why would some folks in the White House cheer this on and how would they achieve their political objectives by doing that?

I'll play : 1) to ensure that they stay in power and 2) mobilize and energize an active power base that can be used to counter a perceived threat (in this case, the "Tea Party").

motorfirebox
09-12-2011, 10:23 PM
An armed populace is not a threat to a nation.

Government that seeks to oppress or disarm an armed populace is a threat to a nation.

The true "fourth branch" of government that keeps the other three from over-riding the checks and balances contained in the constitution. Every good bit of law needs to come with an enforcement function to make it work. That function for the constitution is an armed, informed populace that is free to assemble, vote, and speak their mind. Best part is, it doesn't cost the taxpayer a dime.
Um... now, let me preface this by saying that I'm very much in favor of gun rights. But to say that an armed populace is not a threat to a nation doesn't really make sense. Of course it's a threat to a nation--that's the whole point, as you outlined yourself in the paragraphs following. An armed populace is an explicit threat that if the government of the nation fails to execute its duties properly, it will be removed.

The problem, such as it is, is that the entirety of the armed populace isn't in agreement about what proper execution of government duties consists of. In a less beneficial sense, a subsection of the armed populace can be just as much of a threat--as in, actual threat, not enforcer of the national will--to the nation as, say, nineteen guys and two airplanes can. It's as unwise to turn a blind eye to that sort of threat as it is to turn a blind eye towards union violence.

What concerns me on a personal level is who the most vociferous gun-holders are. If they had their druthers, people like me would be as unwelcome as if those nineteen guys had gotten theirs.

Fuchs
09-12-2011, 10:28 PM
An armed populace is an explicit threat that if the government of the nation fails to execute its duties properly, it will be removed.

This is a peculiar myth that seems to be strong in the U.S. only, likely due to NRA lobbying.

There's not even a dismal chance that empirical analysis of history will support this myth.


Oh, and before someone asks; the other, associated myth that an early action of all new dictators (including Hitler) is to disarm the population is wrong, too. Gun control laws were passed in Germany in the late 20's already, and multiple dictatorships around the world tolerated rifle and other arms possession by civilians.

motorfirebox
09-13-2011, 01:04 AM
There's not even a dismal chance that empirical analysis of history will support this myth.
Yeah, well, those other suckers didn't grow up watching Red Dawn.

Bill Moore
09-13-2011, 06:22 AM
Posted by Fuchs


Oh, and before someone asks; the other, associated myth that an early action of all new dictators (including Hitler) is to disarm the population is wrong, too. Gun control laws were passed in Germany in the late 20's already, and multiple dictatorships around the world tolerated rifle and other arms possession by civilians.

True, in Iraq most families had firearms (assualt rifles) for protection, and that sure as hell didn't stop Saddam and his forces from effectively crushing dissent. I believe most North Korean citizens are indoctrinated, armed, and trained in militant activities from a very young age.

None the less, I am not giving up my right to own firearms. Laws that facilitate cooling off periods for 72 or so hours before you can purchase a weapon make sense, but the anti-gun activists want to a lot further than that. Forget the rebellion talk, most folks just want to go hunting or be able to protect their property and families from violent criminals.

Marc, the administration has a long record of being associated with left wing activists such as Acorn and the unions, and the administration failed to condemn the Black Panthers who intiminated voters at voting locations and even recently failed to comment on a far left Congress man's comments that were way out of bounds.

I'm an independent that dislikes the Tea Party as much as the far left, and in my view we don't need ideologues we need problem solvers. As you have probably observed our nation is becoming increasingly divided and unfortunately our political leaders on both sides are promoting and exploiting this for personal advantage. Extreme right and left wing rhetoric will eventually result in ugly events that are in no one's interest. When you play with fire you risk getting burnt.

I don't anticipate a revolution, though they're hard to see coming, and only appeared to be obvious in hindsight, but I do anticipate greater political violence if our leaders don't return to a more civil way of conducting business.

slapout9
09-13-2011, 06:35 PM
I'm an independent that dislikes the Tea Party as much as the far left, and in my view we don't need ideologues we need problem solvers. As you have probably observed our nation is becoming increasingly divided and unfortunately our political leaders on both sides are promoting and exploiting this for personal advantage. Extreme right and left wing rhetoric will eventually result in ugly events that are in no one's interest. When you play with fire you risk getting burnt.

I don't anticipate a revolution, though they're hard to see coming, and only appeared to be obvious in hindsight, but I do anticipate greater political violence if our leaders don't return to a more civil way of conducting business.

Yep, which is why I started this thread in the first place. I didn't have a super computer either:wry: We are in deep trouble:(

slapout9
09-14-2011, 07:20 AM
RT interview of English student on Education cuts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDAcauc1SZY&feature=feedrec

davidbfpo
09-14-2011, 09:56 AM
Slap,

I'm not convinced a Russian TV interview is the best barometer of opposition to cuts in UK state spending and borrowing - from November 2010.

Whether the policy of cuts is best for the economy is a moot point, slowly the UK public IMHO are realising we cannot borrow on the scale we have been doing. The cuts appears stark, but amount to 3% of all spending. Allocation of cuts has meant some sectors are required to cut by 20% over the next three years, including law enforcement and a few have grown, notably overseas aid.

The interview did touch on one aspect that resonated the deep hostility to elected politicians, notably the Liberal-Democrats, who are the junior coalition partners, who before the election opposed tuition fees being increased (fees for university-level education) and then changed their stance.

IMHO there is an increasing disconnect between the public and elected politicians in the UK. The credibility of politicians has declined for years, which accelerated after the scandal of parliamentary expenses and their determination to pursue policies at variance with the electorate's views (on immigration, Europe, public spending, justice and hanging). Participation in elections has steadily gone down, with the exception of the last General Election I concede and political party membership has waned.

The political decision to support a few banks, then more, was a mistake and how the taxpayer spent bewildering large sums to support them evades understanding. Not helped by the now state supported, if not part-owned banks insisting on paying competitive bonuses.

Looking across Europe and reflecting comments here - on the USA - I suspect this disconnect and dismay over banking is a shared experience.

slapout9
09-14-2011, 04:48 PM
Nice analysis David......I didn't notice it was 2010.


One thing that I have noticed as least in the USA is avery prominent absence of the Church!!! They were very vocal in the 60's??
Anyway some music for the Revolution or rather for the Counter-Revolution, from the summer 1969 and from the UK......Jackie DeShannon "Put A Little Love In Your Heart"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCXu6LRxzV4&feature=related

Levi
09-14-2011, 07:33 PM
Hello slapout9.

I live in northwest illinois. There is very little work here. You see various cuts in spending from local and state government, but I for one do not hear a lot of grumbling. There is, of course, anger and resentment over what many see as a drop in level of lifestyle and income locally, versus the perceived "bailout wealthy", and as always, members of congress et al. I don't see any danger in the wind. I do see a rise in common and open talk of folks who want to game the system by going on disability of some type, state and local aid fraud (usually but not always a single mother of multiple children getting state aid, living in a rent free home with a working male who is not on the lease or listed as living there, but has income), as well as many who move into a sortof "homesteading" situation, with a few animals, and chickens and fruit and vegetable gardens becoming more common once again. More talk about getting off the grid, as it were. If the average income in this area is accurate, then few of us are paying much in state and federal taxes, if any. I think that for a few years, maybe even a few decades ( I hope not) that this IS the revolution. Poor people. All over. More extended family's living together. Just a general "hunkering down" and waiting for better times. I like my neighbors. We all live on farms (ours is rented, as are many around here) we all see each other in the closest town. Riots in major metro areas? Maybe. Maybe even probably. But I just don't see a "bring down the government" revolution growing.

slapout9
09-15-2011, 05:26 AM
Maybe even probably. But I just don't see a "bring down the government" revolution growing.

I don't either, but if you look back at some of the older posts in this thread you will see a speech I posted by President Kennedy talking about the Revolution that was coming back then. However any Revolution certainly does have potential for violence.

Here is the link to the speech.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJrFpGYgMlE

davidbfpo
09-15-2011, 08:49 AM
As upon request, a BBC News story, with the headline 'Steep' drop in public confidence in MPs, says watchdog' and it opens with:
The percentage of people in England who think MPs are dedicated to working well for the public dropped from 46% to 26%.

The Committee on Standards in Public Life said its survey indicated concerns "with self-serving behaviour" by MPs overshadowed other issues.

It does have this, odd finding:
The young, people from ethnic minorities and those in higher paid jobs tended to have more trust in MPs in general.

And a 'Trusted to tell the Truth' list:


Judges - 80%
Senior police - 73%
TV journalists - 58%
Top civil servants - 41%
Broadsheet journalists - 41%
Local MPs - 40%
Ministers - 26%
MPs in general - 26%
Tabloid journalists - 16%

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14924465

davidbfpo
09-15-2011, 09:46 AM
I'm on a roll here. This is a comment by a senior Conservative minister reflecting on the recent English riots:
Whether in the banking crisis, phone hacking or the MPs' expenses scandal, we have seen a failure of responsibility from the leaders of our society.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14926322

Readers, especially Slap,

Are there similar public opinion findings regarding US institutions, as per my previous post?

AdamG
09-15-2011, 12:34 PM
Riots in major metro areas? Maybe. Maybe even probably. But I just don't see a "bring down the government" revolution growing.


I don't anticipate a revolution, though they're hard to see coming, and only appeared to be obvious in hindsight, but I do anticipate greater political violence if our leaders don't return to a more civil way of conducting business.

And that's the point - how would you know when you were sitting on the cusp of things spiraling out of control? One can't wonder what people were thinking in April 1774 or the summer of 1860 - or how close we've come to really bad times (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot )

Golly, if one could only differentiate between the usual sine wave of stupidity that's part and parcel of our nation, and those spikes that lead straight into the realm of chaos.

slapout9
09-15-2011, 05:40 PM
I'm on a roll here. This is a comment by a senior Conservative minister reflecting on the recent English riots:

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14926322

Readers, especially Slap,

Are there similar public opinion findings regarding US institutions, as per my previous post?


Probably are David, but look at this link. The US is violating a UN resolution on Human Rights according to the article. H/T to John Robb for posting this.
http://www.businessinsider.com/lakewood-new-jersey-homeless-tent-city-2011-9?op=1

You are on a roll David, the problem of all problems is a Moral one.

AdamG
09-16-2011, 12:03 PM
Organizers of the event swear up and down that the mass protest will be nonviolent in nature. This raises the question of why they named their event after the original “Days of Rage” that took place in Chicago in 1969. That tumultuous year, members of what was later to become known as the Weather Underground provoked four days of riots and demonstrations against The System.
The September 17 protest comes months after ACORN founder Wade Rathke wrote of an “anti-banking jihad” and SEIU operative Stephen Lerner promised to “bring down the stock market” through a campaign of disruption. Sociologist Abby Scher said she was bullish on the potential of Lerner’s plan to cause massive upheaval. “As Frances Fox Piven and [Richard] Cloward taught us … poor peoples’ movements are successful when they create conditions of ungovernability. And then you win victories.”

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/09/16/radical-rage-marxist-mob-plans-to-occupy-wall-street/

slapout9
09-16-2011, 05:01 PM
Day od rage planned against Wall Street-link to Washington Post article



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/us-day-of-rage-planned-for-saturday--an-arab-spring-in-america/2011/09/15/gIQAd6uKVK_blog.html?tid=sm_twitter_washingtonpost

Levi
09-17-2011, 12:28 AM
I have to wonder who, if anyone, would be "violent"? Would it be like a riot? Where there are just some people who are taking advantage of a situation? Or would it be joe citizen, out of work for too long, too far in debt, and fed up? The former should rightfully be arrested. The latter... it would be tough not to support my friends and neighbors. I just don't know what the alternative to the current political and financial make up of the country would consist of. A return to the (unamended) Constitution? Same game, different players? As far as the homeless people living in yurts, I am sure there is some number that is a tipping point for violence, if only locally. 70 is bad. But compared to some places I have been, 70 is nothing. SA seemed (to me) to be loaded with homeless when I was in Johannesburg and the North Coast last year. But they don't seem to want a revolution. (Plenty of other crime though, from what I was told.)

slapout9
09-17-2011, 03:18 AM
I am trying to find an article I saw on TV today that NYC Mayor Bloomberg is concerned over unemployed-debt laden college students. Thye have no job and no hope of a job but a lot of debt:eek: The restless youth in general is one of my main interest and it does not look good, but I don't generally at the same things most experts look at.



Link to one report.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/09/16/mayor-bloomberg-warns-of-rioting-if-unemployment-remains-high/

Bill Moore
09-17-2011, 07:28 AM
The Mayor should be concerned, since the Arab Spring and other uprisings were led by the disillusioned educated who had no opportunity. Your old school homeless were too downtrodden to organize and be violent, they couldn't see a better world worth fighting for, or in some cases were content with the homeless lifestyle, but the young turks will fight if they see no other way to extract themselves from this mess.

I don't know what the answer is, the Republicans have surrendered the intellectual high ground to populists running on nothing but an emotional far right platform that offers no solutions, and the democrats are led by the far left who are implementing programs that are simply making the problem worse, and then we have corrupt corporations continuing to buy favor through their lobbies resulting in policies that protect corporations that do little for America's economy (like GE), and horde their profits and transfer jobs overseas to increase the profits they horde.

We're in a period of serious decline with little hope visible on the near horizon.

motorfirebox
09-17-2011, 12:44 PM
Hm! If the Dems were being led by the far left, Gitmo would have been closed by now. The Dems are being led by the less-right-than-the-Tea-Party. The actual leftist wackos (like me) are pretty unhappy with how unleft they are.

I think we're already seeing the violence we're predicting. It's just hidden, for the most part, and hasn't passed the boiling point. The union riots are in the mix, obviously. No deaths yet, that I'm aware of, but as soon as somebody dies in a union riot, the gloves are going to come off and a lot more will follow. There's also the flash mobs in Philly and elsewhere--young black men with very little to look forward to going out and threatening or attacking the rest of their society. I think anti-immigrant violence like the Shawna Forde case falls into this bailiwick. The underlying motivation there is financial--"der terk rr jerbs!" And so on. I think a lot of the violence that's coming, if it comes, will follow that pattern--it will be, on the surface, cut along racial lines, because race is such a huge divider.

Bill Moore
09-17-2011, 09:51 PM
Hm! If the Dems were being led by the far left, Gitmo would have been closed by now.

Motorbox, there are checks and balances in the system, so Gitmo remaining open doesn't mean the Senate majority leader and House miniority leader are not left of center-left. It could mean that no matter how far left they are, they realize there are viable alternatives that are politically acceptable. Regardless of their left of center leaning, they'll be held accountable by the American people to implement policies that protect our nation. Our President is left of center-left, but is forced by realities to graviate somewhat more to the center than he would like. None the less we still have gay marriage, the appeal of the don't ask don't tell, a health care bill no one understands, a desire to significantly increase taxes, an attempt to greatly reduce DOD spending to protect entitlement spending, and so forth. These discussions were healthy in the past because they forced compromise in the middle, but now the ideologues have dug their heels in on both sides, so now we have dysfunction and frustration.

I agree with your assessment on the violence, and think some of it is hidden, and there is risk that some it will go viral out of wide spread frustration, lack of hope, anger, and a desire to vent their anger against someone who probably has nothing to do with their situation. It isn't too late to turn this around if the right leaders (probably won't be politicians) gain the media spot light and mobilize the American people the right way. We're going to need a MLK equivalent to generate concensus and compell peaceful action to turn our economy around.

Fuchs
09-17-2011, 10:10 PM
Actually, Obama has been proved to be more "right-wing" than Nixon on many issues.
For starters, Nixon was about to do a far more "left-wing" (by today's standard) health insurance reform (http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2009/September/03/nixon-proposal.aspx) when he fell than Obama even asked for.

Besides; the left-right perception is largely dependant on the own position. Right wingers think that the media has a left bias, left-wingers think it has a right-wing bias...

Bill Moore
09-17-2011, 11:39 PM
Fuchs,

Appreciate the article about President Nixon's effort to establish national health insurance (I didn't recall that). On the other hand it was a mistake for me to bring up health care, because just like peace in the Middle, both the left and right desire it, but neither can achieve it. The middle right isn't opposed to reforming our health care system, they just have a different approach that hopes to side step socializing it. If someone could explain the current health care in a paragraph or two in a way that most Americans could grasp it would be helpful, but unfortunately the 1,000 plus page bill is understood my few outside a few lawyers.

As for news media bias it is alive and well. Fox news is severely biased to the right, MSNBC is severely biased to the left, the other mainstream news media channels tend to bias somewhat to the left (CNN, NBC, ABC). Others disagree, but the only news I can find close to non-bias is the PBS newshour. That is a shame, because people will watch whatever news channel that reinforces their views further divided the nation and pushing further away from a frank discussion on how to solve the problems facing our nation.

Bob's World
09-18-2011, 03:32 AM
Um... now, let me preface this by saying that I'm very much in favor of gun rights. But to say that an armed populace is not a threat to a nation doesn't really make sense. Of course it's a threat to a nation--that's the whole point, as you outlined yourself in the paragraphs following. An armed populace is an explicit threat that if the government of the nation fails to execute its duties properly, it will be removed.

The problem, such as it is, is that the entirety of the armed populace isn't in agreement about what proper execution of government duties consists of. In a less beneficial sense, a subsection of the armed populace can be just as much of a threat--as in, actual threat, not enforcer of the national will--to the nation as, say, nineteen guys and two airplanes can. It's as unwise to turn a blind eye to that sort of threat as it is to turn a blind eye towards union violence.

What concerns me on a personal level is who the most vociferous gun-holders are. If they had their druthers, people like me would be as unwelcome as if those nineteen guys had gotten theirs.

But you are right, we often confuse the two. An armed populace is no risk to a nation, but is indeed a tremendous risk to governments who lose their focus on what is truly important. Most of the most drawn out messes we have gotten ourselves into (Vietnam and now Afghanistan to name but two) are where we come to mistake the preservation of a government for the preservation of the Nation.

Often the government we are working with is the problem and must either evolve or be replaced by legal or illegal means by the populace of that land (the land and the people and the heritage being the greatest components of a "nation," with government being perhaps the least imporant component of any equation that adds up to equaling "nation.")

Trees are to Forest as Government is to Nation. Sometimes you have to burn some trees to make the forest healthy again.

slapout9
09-18-2011, 04:35 AM
Link to live stream of pending Wall Street Demonstration tomorrow.



http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

motorfirebox
09-18-2011, 04:51 AM
Trees are to Forest as Government is to Nation. Sometimes you have to burn some trees to make the forest healthy again.

I agree in principle, but two things concern me. The simple concern is that those who seem most enthusiastic about that sort of thing--the burning down of the old order to make way for the new, etcetera--are not, by and large, people whose rule I want to be under. Nothing against them personally, I just don't trust them to offer me the freedom to live my life the way I see fit. Social conservatism seems, to me, to be as large or larger a factor in those sorts of movements as political conservatism.

The more complex concern is that it just doesn't seem like we're on a path that ends in burning things down. It seems more like we're on a path to burning out. There are lots of angry people, but very few of them agree on much. So if widespread fighting does break out, it's not going to be a revolution, it's going to be pretty standard-issue sectarian violence. The best case scenario there is that everyone who believes in something enough to die for it actually does so, leaving everyone else to rebuild.

Bill Moore
09-18-2011, 08:16 AM
Social conservatism seems, to me, to be as large or larger a factor in those sorts of movements as political conservatism.

Please explain the difference? Most conservative politicians focus on conservative social issues (anti-abortion, religion, state's rights, protecting big business, and so forth), and liberal politicians focus on gay rights, equal rights for illegal immigrants, social programs run by the gov, and so forth. Even the economic debates largely center over social/cultural values, not fixing the problem.

Bob's World
09-18-2011, 02:24 PM
I agree in principle, but two things concern me. The simple concern is that those who seem most enthusiastic about that sort of thing--the burning down of the old order to make way for the new, etcetera--are not, by and large, people whose rule I want to be under. Nothing against them personally, I just don't trust them to offer me the freedom to live my life the way I see fit. Social conservatism seems, to me, to be as large or larger a factor in those sorts of movements as political conservatism.

The more complex concern is that it just doesn't seem like we're on a path that ends in burning things down. It seems more like we're on a path to burning out. There are lots of angry people, but very few of them agree on much. So if widespread fighting does break out, it's not going to be a revolution, it's going to be pretty standard-issue sectarian violence. The best case scenario there is that everyone who believes in something enough to die for it actually does so, leaving everyone else to rebuild.

I agree, and I certainly do not endorse insurgency as a first resort for any populace, but equally, I recognize (as our US founding fathers did) that is the right and duty of last resort for EVERY populace.

We need to move past our Western bias born of hundreds of years of setting up and defending Colonial and Containment-based governments; designing or allowing them to grow to treat their own populaces with impunity under the protection of some Western power; and then coming to see the protection of such governments against their own populace as "COIN." That thinking is at the root of our current challenges around the globe, and the days of "friendly despots" as a tool of foreign policy is as outdated today as slavery was in 1860. Time to move on.

Governments have always been the primary source of "radicalization" of insurgent populaces. We need to accept that and stop blaming the "malign actors" who will always emerge to exploit such situations for their own gain; or on the ideologies applied by "good" and "bad" insurgents alike to advance their movements. Once we shift our thinking we can begin to shift our focus.

Afghanistan, for example, should not be a debate about "COIN" vs CT; or Nation-Building vs Counterguerrilla focused operations. It should be a debate about do we put the screws to the Karzai/Northern Alliance government to evolve to offer equitable governance to ALL Afghans, or do we step aside and let the chips fall as they might with an open invitation to work with whatever government emerges so long as they are willing to engage the entire populace equitably. As you notice, far too often the insurgent who prevails often is very quick to exact revenge on the losers and adopt an equally bad system of governance as the last guys.

This is unfortunate, but not our job to police around the world either. We are best served in our own interests by being true to our own professed values. I think we can work with governments who are radically different than us in that regard. We just shouldn't protect them from their own populace when the inevitable occurs. Listen to the advice of guys like Washington and Jefferson; and not the CEOs of Exxon, Chevron, etc, etc, etc....

motorfirebox
09-18-2011, 02:45 PM
Please explain the difference? Most conservative politicians focus on conservative social issues (anti-abortion, religion, state's rights, protecting big business, and so forth), and liberal politicians focus on gay rights, equal rights for illegal immigrants, social programs run by the gov, and so forth. Even the economic debates largely center over social/cultural values, not fixing the problem.
By political conservatism I mean states' rights and limited federal government--as actual principles, not just as dog whistles.


We need to move past our Western bias born of hundreds of years of setting up and defending Colonial and Containment-based governments; designing or allowing them to grow to treat their own populaces with impunity under the protection of some Western power; and then coming to see the protection of such governments against their own populace as "COIN." That thinking is at the root of our current challenges around the globe, and the days of "friendly despots" as a tool of foreign policy is as outdated today as slavery was in 1860. Time to move on.
It's an interesting balance-of-power issue.

slapout9
09-18-2011, 04:10 PM
Californian initiative to create a State Bank to defend from the Wall Street Tali-Bankster Empire. Several States are doing this by the way.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDjl6GEXIY&feature=feedu

Fuchs
09-18-2011, 04:55 PM
State banks in Germany fared especially poorly in the crisis (and before).

The real reason for their existence is that they give governments a para-budget that's not under parliamentary control. You want to push a prestige construction project? Arrange for a way too cheap credit to the private company that orders its construction.

These banks were also staffed with party top level people who had been chased away from power, into a lucrative 'private sector' job as a kind of retirement. The incompetence trickled down.

These banks lacked the competence to understand that CDS and other financial 'products' are a ####ty racket, became greedy at the sight of the promised interest rates and bought a lot of that crap.



The real way to go is different.
LOCAL savings & loan cooperatives
REGIONAL savings & loan backing companies (that also handle the really big credits for multi-billion € projects and medium-sized companies as customers)
Corporations issuing their own bonds or shares at exchanges
NATIONAL central bank

Nothing more is necessary.

jmm99
09-18-2011, 06:21 PM
Bank of North Dakota (Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_North_Dakota) and webpage (http://www.banknd.nd.gov/)) founded in 1919. I supported this concept for Michigan back in the 1970s, as well as a state-owned and -run insurance company similar to Saskatchewan Government Insurance (Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatchewan_Government_Insurance)). The ideas ran pretty well in Northern Michigan, but foundered in downstate party politics.

And, for motorfirebox (from a very vociferous gun-owner and 2nd Amendment person :)), I give thee from Mother Jones, How the Nation’s Only State-Owned Bank Became the Envy of Wall Street (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2009/03/how-nation%E2%80%99s-only-state-owned-bank-became-envy-wall-street) (Josh Harkinson, 27 Mar 2009).

Regards

Mike

Surferbeetle
09-18-2011, 08:59 PM
Slapout, Mike, Dayuhan, Fuchs, Motorfirebox, Bill, et. al

"All happy (societies) resemble one another, each unhappy (society) is unhappy in its own way." - Leo Tolstoy

One might argue that a sustainable economy is a key component of a society. Rule of Law, Safe & Secure Environment, Stable Governance, and Social Well-Being are other components worth considering when comparatively examining healthy (happy) and unhealthy (unhappy) societies.

Guiding Principles for Stabilization and Reconstruction (http://www.usip.org/publications/guiding-principles-stabilization-and-reconstruction) - USIP


"A sustainable economy is one in which people can pursue opportunities for livelihoods within a predictable system of economic governance bound by law. Such an end state is characterized by market-based macroeconomic stability, control over the illicit economy and economic-based threats to peace, development of a market economy, and employment generation. Economic governance refers to the collection of policies, laws, regulations, institutions, practices, and individuals that shape the context in which a (society's) economic activity takes place."

Fiscal Management and Monetary Stability can be seen as subsets of Macroeconomic Stability - something of concern to all who partake of the global financial system - context is everything as they say...:wry:

Fighting for its life, The euro zone is in intensive care (http://www.economist.com/node/21529044), The Economist: Sep 17th 2011


WHAT’S the French for “this sucker could go down”? Echoes of 2008, when the global financial system wobbled and George Bush gave his pithy view of the American economy, now resound on the other side of the Atlantic. Credit-default-swap spreads for European banks, a measure of how costly it is to buy insurance against their default, are at record highs (see chart 1).


The pressure on European banks will keep increasing unless something else is done. Rumours that China will ride to the rescue of struggling countries are fanciful. Again, the real last resort is the ECB, which could relieve the pressures on the system by being prepared to buy without limit the bonds of solvent euro-zone countries. But the ECB is itself riven by disagreement.


The German government moved swiftly to fill the hole left by Mr Stark. Jörg Asmussen, chief secretary at the finance ministry, will move to the ECB, assuming the formalities go without a hitch. Both Mr Asmussen and Jens Weidmann, Mr Weber’s successor at the Bundesbank, appear more flexible personalities than their predecessors. But persuading them, and the German public, to sign up to what amounts to a policy of massive quantitative easing (creating money to buy bonds) will be extremely difficult. In 2008 free-market Americans swallowed their misgivings to rescue Wall Street. Inflation-phobic Germans now face a similar choice.

Lehman Brothers and the crisis, A year on, Two books make a case for looking back before forging ahead (http://www.economist.com/node/14401030), The Economist, Sep 10th 2009


Mrs Reinhart and Mr Rogoff do not expect a quick recovery this time. Nor do they expect their proposed reforms—which include creating a new global financial regulator and beefing up the IMF, where Mr Rogoff was once chief economist—to prevent future crises, though they could make them less frequent. As they say, “The persistent and recurrent nature of the ‘this-time-is-different’ syndrome is itself suggestive that we are not dealing with a challenge that can be overcome in a straightforward way.”

The problem lies in the human tendency to be optimistic and forget the lessons of the past. There will be other banking crises, so the world must learn what it can from this one. Lehman Brothers is dead; long live Lehman Brothers.