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IntelTrooper
01-08-2011, 11:20 PM
Gabrielle Giffords, Arizona congresswoman, shot in Tucson (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gabrielle-giffords-20110109,0,961233.story)


Democrat Gabrielle Giffords is in critical condition after a gunman opened fire at a meet-and-greet at a supermarket. Six are dead, including a 9-year-old girl and a federal judge, and at least 12 others are injured.


Meanwhile, a federal source said a suspect was in custody and identified him as Jared L. Loughner, 22, a U.S. military veteran who served in Afghanistan. The gunman reportedly fired a pistol with an "extended magazine," the source said.

This is a horrible tragedy.

slapout9
01-09-2011, 12:46 AM
Link to an article about what her former opponent did before the election.


http://firedoglake.com/2011/01/08/giffords-opponent-jesse-kelly-held-june-event-to-shoot-a-fully-automatic-m16-to-get-on-target-and-remove-gabrielle-giffords/

IntelTrooper
01-09-2011, 01:41 AM
Maybe one of the mods can amend the title of the thread:

Man linked to Giffords shooting called 'very disturbed' (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_91db5db4-1b74-11e0-ba23-001cc4c002e0.html)


First Sgt. Brian Homme, who oversees Army recruiting in Tucson, said Loughner applied to enlist in December 2008 and was sent to Phoenix to take a test and physical. But “he was found to be unqualified so he never joined the Army,” Homme said.

He declined to say why Loughner was rejected, citing confidentiality laws.

Thank God.

Ken White
01-09-2011, 03:44 AM
Link to an article about what her former opponent did before the election.I didn't even know Hamsters could write... :D

91bravojoe
01-09-2011, 04:34 AM
What kind of people get influenced by stuff like this?

http://mylatinovoice.com/images/stories/Sarah_Palin_Facebook_DemocratHitList.png

Ken White
01-09-2011, 05:02 AM
This is not a political discussion board. Let's keep it on topic, please.

SWJED
01-09-2011, 12:16 PM
Army: Ariz. Shooter Tried to Enlist but was Rejected (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/01/ap-shooter-was-not-in-army-010811/) - Army Times


An Army spokesman said that Loughner attempted to enlist in Dec. 2008 but was rejected. The spokesman, citing the Privacy Act, could not discuss why Loughner was rejected.

davidbfpo
01-09-2011, 12:32 PM
The spectre of individual or loner direct action has been around for a long time, often called the 'Lone Wolves' or Lone Attackers by analysts.

See this recent commentary:http://raffaellopantucci.com/2010/12/20/catching-lone-attackers/

What motivates such people remains elusive; much of the commentary I've seen concentrates on the internet's role in radicalisation and preachers of hatred.

The comments by the local Sheriff no doubt will echo around for awhile:
We have become the capital, the mecca for prejudice and bigotry.

Link to Sheriff's press conference:http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2011/01/sheriff-dupnik-and-dr-richard-carmona-in-press-conference-on-cd8-shooting.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+BlogForArizona+(Blog+For+Arizon a)

Presley Cannady
01-09-2011, 02:23 PM
Link to an article about what her former opponent did before the election.

http://firedoglake.com/2011/01/08/giffords-opponent-jesse-kelly-held-june-event-to-shoot-a-fully-automatic-m16-to-get-on-target-and-remove-gabrielle-giffords/

Marines and firearms. It's basically terrorism!

Presley Cannady
01-09-2011, 02:27 PM
What motivates such people remains elusive; much of the commentary I've seen concentrates on the internet's role in radicalisation and preachers of hatred.

Raises the question, is it useful to consider "lone wolf" assassins a class of criminal apart? Do we entertain such categorical notions when considering other kinds of criminals, even narrowed down to just murderers?


The comments by the local Sheriff no doubt will echo around for awhile:

Link to Sheriff's press conference:http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2011/01/sheriff-dupnik-and-dr-richard-carmona-in-press-conference-on-cd8-shooting.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+BlogForArizona+(Blog+For+Arizon a)

They've been echoing for longer than that, along with the typical appeals to the ephemeral roots of homeland violence in:
1. video games (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=video+games+violence&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart),
2. heavy metal (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=heavy+metal+violence&btnG=Search&as_sdt=40000000&as_ylo=&as_vis=1) and gangsta rap (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=gangsta+rap+violence&btnG=Search&as_sdt=40000000&as_ylo=&as_vis=1), and
3. pot (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=marijuana+violence&btnG=Search&as_sdt=40000000&as_ylo=&as_vis=1).

Your mileage may vary in how useful these "observations" are.

davidbfpo
01-09-2011, 02:35 PM
Presley commented / asked:
Raises the question, is it useful to consider "lone wolf" assassins a class of criminal apart? Do we entertain such categorical notions when considering other kinds of criminals, even narrowed down to just murderers?

With murders and sex crimes notably we do - in the UK - and have borrowed the adjective from the FBI IIRC of 'serial murderers' etc. It is a fact that some criminal suspects specialise in their targeting, such as bogus callers on the elderly. There is a clear difficulty in defining and establishing predictability and the political need, notably with terrorism, to pre-empt such behaviour.

J Wolfsberger
01-09-2011, 03:36 PM
The writing and You Tube posts are more typical of someone with schizophrenia than with any specific political leanings. Whatever "radicalized" him was a product of his own mental condition, and had no connection to the external world beyond seizing on certain terms that he took out of context and fit into his delusions. There isn't anything useful to be learned from trying to fit this mentally disturbed spree killer into the category of terrorist.

slapout9
01-09-2011, 04:00 PM
This is not a political discussion board. Let's keep it on topic, please.

Ken,I understand why you put that up but IMO it was an assassination not a murder so politics plays a part. Including the fact that the victim was alarmed by the very poster that is displayed in the previous post along with all the violent rhetoric associated with it. You will find that the shooter followed the basic research established by the Secret Service.


Link to Secret Service study on Assassination.
http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac/ntac_jfs.pdf

slapout9
01-09-2011, 04:01 PM
The writing and You Tube posts are more typical of someone with schizophrenia than with any specific political leanings. Whatever "radicalized" him was a product of his own mental condition, and had no connection to the external world beyond seizing on certain terms that he took out of context and fit into his delusions. There isn't anything useful to be learned from trying to fit this mentally disturbed spree killer into the category of terrorist.

Jay, that it is part of what is used to determine the threat level of a possible assassin.

bourbon
01-09-2011, 05:35 PM
I don’t believe he was the intended target, but the chief federal judge in Arizona killed in the attack. Federal judge’s can receive a lot of death threats, but only 6 (including this one) have been murdered in US history; last one was in 1989.


Trivia Question:
The father of which movie and sitcom star, was an organized crime affiliated hit-man who shot and killed US District Judge John Wood (aka: "Maximum John") in 1979?

Ken White
01-09-2011, 05:56 PM
Ken,I understand why you put that up but IMO it was an assassination not a murder so politics plays a part.Not a problem with your link -- to which I responded with a feeble attempt at humor :rolleyes: -- but over the follow on post that displayed the graphic and asked who might be influenced by it. Your post introduced the political angle but it was in keeping with the thread; the other post IMO left the thread and asked a broad political question not particularly appropriate to this board.

As for politics playing a part, they may or may not and if they do the likelihood of particularly skewed variants of political beliefs would appear to be probable. Howsomeever, we can always make standing broad jumps at conclusions... ;) . Grand ol' American pastime...
Including the fact that the victim was alarmed by the very poster that is displayed in the previous post along with all the violent rhetoric associated with it...She apparently was or she mentioned that 'alarm' as a political tactic -- we cannot know. Her Father blames the "Tea Party" (LINK) (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/136787-report-tea-party-giffords-enemy-father-says). While my assessment is that statement by him is rather a stretch, I certainly cannot know what is in his mind and I'm not about to second guess him...

Early days and not enough information to make much of an assessment IMO. Regardless, this is still not a political discussion board so only those political aspects directly appropriate to the topic at hand and based on fact rather than supposition or speculation should ideally be added to discussions.

Bob's World
01-09-2011, 06:18 PM
Violence and politics between states is not always war; similarly politically motivated violence with a state is not always insurgency or even Anarchy.

Such events do, however, need to be looked at carefully as a single puzzle piece, a single data-point that helps to assess the overall relationship between a populace and its government. These things are best addressed early, and it is by taking each serious, but not over reacting to any, that such analysis and course corrections can be made by government.

I suspect this guy is a couple of standard deviations out of any such plotting of events that would indicate the relationship between the US people and their government. There are rumblings out there though, and to disregard them until they explode in major ways is folly.

It is times like this that the rock, the core, our contract between the American people and their government is so important. That, of course, is our Constitution. There is little popular support for actions such as this man's, be he just a disturbed individual, or a committed Anarchist. 100 years ago there was a rash of such actions in the West leading up, and into WWI. Trust and protect the Constitution and this too shall pass, and beware any in government that suggest that it is changes to the Constitution that will lead us forward.

In many other countries, (many that we call friends and protect from internal and external challenge), there is no such trusted contract between the people and their government. Those places have far more to be concerned about from such events than the U.S. does.

One can't separate politics and warfare. Paying attention to the acorns of discontent helps avoid dealing with the Oaks of war.

slapout9
01-09-2011, 07:09 PM
Not a problem with your link -- to which I responded with a feeble attempt at humor :rolleyes: -- but over the follow on post that displayed the graphic and asked who might be influenced by it.

OK, I get it now:o

Ken White
01-09-2011, 07:45 PM
Violence and politics between states is not always war; similarly politically motivated violence with a state is not always insurgency or even Anarchy...One can't separate politics and warfare. Paying attention to the acorns of discontent helps avoid dealing with the Oaks of war.Can't separate 'em -- but one should also take care not to conflate an acorn into a pumpkin. ;)

91bravojoe
01-10-2011, 05:43 AM
The "very disturbed" and the political are 100% overlapping here. Beyond any rational doubt.

From the AP story today:

"Giffords has drawn the ire of the right in the last year, especially from politicians like Sarah Palin over her support of the health care bill."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/01/09/MNET1H6AEP.DTL

Sharron Angle, last year's Tea Party Queen in the Senatorial elections, babbled about "Second Amendment remedies" for her opponents.

That's the environment in which this occurred. The sequellae includes the SarahPac ad with rifle sites, naming Giffords as a functional target.

Giffords' tea party opponent in the 2010 election had "shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly" in his internet and print ads. Scrubbed now from the web page.

Who responds to material like that?

The manifest mental illness of the perp obviously highlights the political content. Both at the macro level, and at the individual candidate level, the right wing pursued explicit behavior which would agitate the unstable.

The more you focus on "disturbed", the more you have to examine what is likely to trigger a disturbed person.

Tort definition of intent: you INTEND the likely consequences of your acts.

Kevin23
01-10-2011, 06:31 AM
I personally don't think political motivations or influence had anything to do with the horrific shooting in Tuscan on Saturday, as the main suspect in question seemed to lack any coherent political beliefs. Which leads me to personally believe that he would just have easily taken shots at Senator John McCain or Governor Jan Brewer if they had been the one's holding the constituent meeting and not Representative Gifford.

That being said when I first heard about the whole incident in Tuscan Arizona and the types of individuals who lost their lives or who were injured, I thought at first it might have been a drug cartel hit given the initial profile of the shooter. As well as speculation as accomplices/and or multiple gunman.In addition, to the fact that the type of people targeted were high profile individuals who been involved with issues regarding drug-related violence both within the US and across the Southern border.

91bravojoe
01-10-2011, 08:20 AM
Nobody is saying that the perp had connected or organized 'political' thoughts.

The override is that an atmosphere was created in which such an individual would be somewhat more likely to turn to irrational violence(this is Arizona, remember) because the concept of irrational violence has been constantly adverted to by the screwball right-wing.

J Wolfsberger
01-10-2011, 01:22 PM
The override is that an atmosphere was created in which such an individual would be somewhat more likely to turn to irrational violence(this is Arizona, remember) because the concept of irrational violence has been constantly adverted to by the screwball right-wing.

Conversely, I could blame the Left wing blogs that "targeted" Rep. Giffords for insufficient fidelity to their policy goals. I could assert that a certain prominent politician gave him permission when he told his supporters "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."

I would be wrong to do so. As is anyone who asserts that somehow this tragedy is the fault of people they disagree with politically.

As more information emerges, the perpetrator looks increasingly likely to be suffering from schizophrenia. If that is the case, then he interprets any speech, writing, or interaction in any form in his reality, not ours.

News reports say he isn't cooperating. If he is, indeed, schizophrenic, it's more likely that he's blocked any recollection of his actions, so we'll probably never know what happened in his reality to lead him to this violence. If that ever does come out, it won't be political, it will be something along the lines of "Buddha used the CIA mind control ray to tell me to kill Rep. Giffords because her unintelligent use of grammar was keeping me from nirvana." Because that is, unfortunately, how the schizophrenic mind works.

slapout9
01-10-2011, 02:23 PM
Conversely, I could blame the Left wing blogs that "targeted" Rep. Giffords for insufficient fidelity to their policy goals. I could assert that a certain prominent politician gave him permission when he told his supporters "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."

I would be wrong to do so. As is anyone who asserts that somehow this tragedy is the fault of people they disagree with politically.



You would not be wrong. You would be right. Radical thoughts on the left and the right can act as triggering events when dealing with disturbed individuals.

Presley Cannady
01-10-2011, 02:29 PM
You would not be wrong. You would be right. Radical thoughts on the left and the right can act as triggering events when dealing with disturbed individuals.

So can Jodie Foster.

slapout9
01-10-2011, 02:32 PM
So can Jodie Foster.

Sure can. That is why the stalking element is so prevalent in these types of cases. They begin to obsess on certain people.

J Wolfsberger
01-10-2011, 02:40 PM
You would not be wrong. You would be right. Radical thoughts on the left and the right can act as triggering events when dealing with disturbed individuals.

Slap, the point I was making is that anything can be a triggering event. As Presley points out, it could be Jodie Foster. As I pointed out, it could be Buddha speaking to him. Or he could have decided that he was called to prove that no one was safe at Safeway. It isn't possible to predict.

Claiming he was motivated by political speech, left or right, is applying normal standards of reasoning and behavior to his very private reality. That's not possible, either.

J Wolfsberger
01-10-2011, 02:44 PM
Sure can. That is why the stalking element is so prevalent in these types of cases. They begin to obsess on certain people.

Agreed. Which leads to: Are there, or should there be, any law enforcement protocols for how those behaviors trigger an in depth investigation or evaluation of threat potential?

slapout9
01-10-2011, 02:47 PM
Slap, the point I was making is that anything can be a triggering event. As Presley points out, it could be Jodie Foster. As I pointed out, it could be Buddha speaking to him. Or he could have decided that he was called to prove that no one was safe at Safeway. It isn't possible to predict.

Claiming he was motivated by political speech, left or right, is applying normal standards of reasoning and behavior to his very private reality. That's not possible, either.

Jay, gotta leave for a while. Will respond later.

Ken White
01-10-2011, 04:24 PM
The "very disturbed" and the political are 100% overlapping here. Beyond any rational doubt.
...
Who responds to material like that?You state:
...Both at the macro level, and at the individual candidate level, the right wing pursued explicit behavior which would agitate the unstable.The unstable will react to prompts from either side -- even hard over left leaners recognize that (LINK) (http://www.businessinsider.com/keith-olbermann-special-comment-gabrielle-giffords-glenn-beck-limbaugh-2011-1) and apologize for it -- and as you also said:
The more you focus on "disturbed", the more you have to examine what is likely to trigger a disturbed person.True and one never knows precisely what triggered an alleged radical who had allegedly had many leftist tendencies but was, mostly, just a sad mentally aberrant kid (LINK) (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=249273).
...The sequellae includes the SarahPac ad with rifle sites...Are those rifle sights or are they simply targets? A lot of folks including the media use terms like target for many things (LINK) (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-01-08/gabrielle-giffords-shooting-dont-blame-sarah-palin/). Fortunately, as that article shows, some people can apply some common sense.

Regardless, as you also said:
Tort definition of intent: you INTEND the likely consequences of your acts.As any Lawyer will tell you, intent is hard to prove. As any shooter will tell you you, those aren't very good representations of the cross hairs in a telescopic sight. As Kurtz said, tossing blame around is easy -- and generally incorrect...

And as I said earlier, the bottom line is that this is not a political discussion board -- so while a brief unbiased comment on political ramifications is acceptable, even desirable, we should save the leaning in either direction politics for elsewhere. That means NOT 'intending' to provoke politically biased responses. ;)

Thanks.

Pol-Mil FSO
01-10-2011, 07:04 PM
The media is making too big a deal of this. It was a tragedy, and I strongly hope that Congresswoman Giffords makes a full recovery and runs for Governor so that we can have some responsible leadership in this state. However, comparing Tucson to Dallas (Kennedy assassination) is ridiculous, and comments about the shooter's alleged politics as well as calls for gun control are, in my judgment, both misguided and unseemly. People will get over this trauma and the incident pales in comparison to what occurs in Iraq and Afghanistan on a weekly basis.

Where was the threat assessment? Why wasn't one of the Congresswoman's staffers armed? (As of five months ago, anyone can carry a concealed weapon in Arizona without a permit.) The Congresswoman was the target of multiple threats, just completed a nasty campaign, and had her local office vandalized because of her health care vote. The House of Representatives Sergeant-at-Arms Office should also be asking themselves some questions. They can't be expected to assess security threats in 435 separate districts but they should be providing personal security assessment briefings to incoming members.

It was a stroke of luck that the shooter used a 9mmP caliber pistol rather than a 40 S&W or a 45 ACP caliber pistol. I buy powder and primers from the store where he reporteldy purchased his handgun and he could have easily selected from the display shelf a Glock 23 (40 S&W) rather than the Glock 19 which he used to commit his crimes. The number of dead would have likely been greater if he had used a more powerful caliber. This should be another argument (as if anymore are needed) for the U.S. military to change its handgun caliber from 9mmP to 45ACP.

slapout9
01-10-2011, 07:09 PM
Agreed. Which leads to: Are there, or should there be, any law enforcement protocols for how those behaviors trigger an in depth investigation or evaluation of threat potential?

There are such protocols but as the Arizona Sheriff said yesterday the traditional route from long ago would have been to refer them to mental health and possible long term incarceration. But money for such programs no longer exist(started with Regan and has been building for some time) and that is a huge part of the problem and with the mood in DC to cut budgets the situation will likely get worse.

91bravojoe
01-12-2011, 01:04 AM
Substantial air of disreality certainly manifest here. There is NO COMPARISON between what the left(whatever that means in America) and the right have said. Review the explicitness in this list:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/gun_rhetoric_2010.php?ref=fpa

If you broaden out a little, you plow into actual conduct, involving hundreds of incidents and 8 actual murders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

Show me the 'left' involvement in that multi-decade history.

On the other hand, here's an opportunity to spiff up your wardrobe:

http://www.zazzle.com/tea_party_rally_we_came_unarmed_this_time_tshirt-235426866986316482

Currently in stock.

IntelTrooper
01-12-2011, 02:23 AM
Substantial air of disreality certainly manifest here. There is NO COMPARISON between what the left(whatever that means in America) and the right have said. Review the explicitness in this list:

You can proof text all day, but you still haven't addressed the widely-reported description of the shooter as a leftist and deeply disturbed -- beyond the reach of any particular political rhetoric.



Show me the 'left' involvement in that multi-decade history.


Just off the top of my head...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbionese_Liberation_Army

Ken White
01-12-2011, 02:34 AM
"And as I said earlier, the bottom line is that this is not a political discussion board -- so while a brief unbiased comment on political ramifications is acceptable, even desirable, we should save the leaning in either direction politics for elsewhere. That means NOT 'intending' to provoke politically biased responses.

Thanks."

I asked nicely. Opinions on either side of this argument certainly exist among people who frequent this Board, however, most know that purely political discussions do not belong here. Please move any further comments to a political board and let's drop it here. I'd hate to lock this thread due to ideologically based comments that belong elsewhere.

IntelTrooper
01-12-2011, 02:41 AM
Sorry, Ken. 91bravojoe -- ignore my post.

Fuchs
01-12-2011, 03:23 AM
You can proof text all day, but you still haven't addressed the widely-reported description of the shooter as a leftist (...)

I do obviously not watch U.S. news all day, but I recall having read that the "leftist" description originates from Fox news and was criticised for being partisan propaganda. I watch CNN International when I'm bored (it doesn't help against that condition, though) and so far they didn't associate him with either wing - nor did German media so far afaik.

The guy had according to reports both marxist and fascist titles in his favourite books list.

It's likely best to completely ignore the topic for a month, skip all those preliminary (and often wrong) info in the meantime. Then in a month when people have calmed down we can read up somewhat robust info on the topic and form an opinion in a calm situation.

jmm99
01-12-2011, 03:36 AM
and according to USA Today, Loughner's lawyer is 'One-Woman Dream Team' (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-01-11-lawyer11_ST_N.htm), with an interesting prior client list:


HIGH-PROFILE CLIENT LIST

Criminal defense attorney Judy Clarke has been involved in several high-profile cases. Among them:

-- Zacarias Moussaoui. The 9/11 conspirator represented himself during his 2006 trial. Clarke served as an adviser to him. He is serving a life sentence.

-- Eric Rudolph. Known as "Olympic Park Bomber," he pleaded guilty in 2005 to a series of bombings, including the 1996 Olympics bombing in Atlanta that killed one person and injured 111 others. He is serving life in prison.

-- Theodore Kaczynski. Known as the "Unabomber," he pleaded guilty in 1998 to a mail-bombing campaign that spanned almost 20 years and killed three people and injured 23 others. He is serving a life sentence.

-- Susan Smith. She was convicted in 1995 of drowning her two toddler sons in a lake in Union, S.C., in 1994. She is serving a life sentence with the possibility of parole in November 2024.

Regards

Mike

anonamatic
01-12-2011, 08:38 AM
I think politics is just what this guy fixated on, it could have easily have been a specific corporation that he had a job at, or some family members, or any of thousands of other things to become attached to in a twisted up way.

This really had to do with badly handling mental illness and firearms in that locality. The US needs to revisit how we deal with those issues in a way that is not offensive to the second amendment. I think it's possible to do it, and I think it's an issue that could be solved with guidance rather than any sort of national legislation.

Virginia had a lot of problems with this, and it took some real tragedy for them to improve. The not so smart thing was for everyone else not to invest in learning from their mistakes. This is one result of that. While politicians in the US need to be more civil than they have rather stupidly chosen not to be, it's not all about that to be sure. We can survive bad language, but people don't survive when mentally ill people get violent with weapons of any sort.

J Wolfsberger
01-12-2011, 03:01 PM
This really had to do with badly handling mental illness and firearms in that locality. The US needs to revisit how we deal with those issues in a way that is not offensive to the second amendment.

Arizona law does prohibit selling firearms to the mentally ill. But they need to be identified in the system for the law to work. Jared Loughner's behavior gave plenty of warning to students and faculty at the community college. There were, reportedly, incidents with law enforcement intervention at his home. That was what prompted my question to Slap about protocols for identifying and dealing with the mentally ill. The relevance to SWC is that the sociopathy and/or fanaticism that lead to terrorism often give plenty of warning signals as well. Maybe the topics for discussion should be:

What are the protocols?
How did they break down in this instance?
How should they be changed?
How should they be extended to identify the truly dangerous without curtailing the freedom of ordinary citizens?

J Wolfsberger
01-12-2011, 03:09 PM
... the "leftist" description originates from Fox news and was criticised for being partisan propaganda. [/I]

The "leftist" description actually originated from class mates asked about his political beliefs. Their coverage has been along the lines of: his political beliefs aren't relevant since he's obviously severely mentally ill.

Firn
01-12-2011, 07:45 PM
It was of course a very disturbing attack, and I hope that the wounded and the families of the victims overcome their physical and mental wounds.

slapout9
01-12-2011, 08:42 PM
Arizona law does prohibit selling firearms to the mentally ill. But they need to be identified in the system for the law to work. Jared Loughner's behavior gave plenty of warning to students and faculty at the community college. There were, reportedly, incidents with law enforcement intervention at his home. That was what prompted my question to Slap about protocols for identifying and dealing with the mentally ill. The relevance to SWC is that the sociopathy and/or fanaticism that lead to terrorism often give plenty of warning signals as well. Maybe the topics for discussion should be:

What are the protocols?
How did they break down in this instance?
How should they be changed?
How should they be extended to identify the truly dangerous without curtailing the freedom of ordinary citizens?

Here is the Bible as far as I am concerned, other than that it is largely a funding issue. Link to Protective Intelligence and Threat Assessment Investigations a guide for LE.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/170612.pdf

slapout9
01-12-2011, 11:21 PM
Link to Real News Editorial about how civility is not much of a solution but some evidence based honest deliberation would go a long way.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk9MnTsniiI&feature=sub

Fuchs
01-13-2011, 10:40 PM
A Very American Conspiracy Theory
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/01/11/a_very_american_conspiracy_theory?page=0,0

slapout9
01-14-2011, 05:51 PM
Link to my 5 rings analysis of violence under the leadership ring you will see Father. It was recently announced that the Father was in some type of dispute with the son over a black bag just before the shooting. The bag was later located with extra ammunition in it.

http://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/dv-systems-map.pdf

Check out how many of the elements will be present in this case.

Kevin23
01-15-2011, 04:04 AM
I notice many people in this thread still think that Jared Lee Loughner's crime was a politically motivated in some way, especially by the sometimes flaming rhetoric of present day American politics. However, not to be harsh or offensive to anyone but this notion has been soundly put to rest as the reason behind the shooting that take place about week ago, because Loughner according to both his friends and other reports didn't pay attention to the news or political talk of any persuasion as he only payed attention to oddball conspiracy websites. Not anything with obvious political motivations like mentioned in the media or throughout this particular thread.

slapout9
01-15-2011, 04:25 AM
I notice many people in this thread still think that Jared Lee Loughner's crime was a politically motivated in some way, especially by the sometimes flaming rhetoric of present day American politics. However, not to be harsh or offensive to anyone but this notion has been soundly put to rest as the reason behind the shooting that take place about week ago, because Loughner according to both his friends and other reports didn't pay attention to the news or political talk of any persuasion as he only payed attention to oddball conspiracy websites. Not anything with obvious political motivations like mentioned in the media or throughout this particular thread.

It was politically motivated from the standpoint that his target was a national politician and because of that it is a "fact" that politics played some part in his motivation but it was not the primary or most important part of his motivation. It was not politically motivated from the standpoint of trying to overthrow the government or advance the cause of some particular political ideology.

anonamatic
01-15-2011, 11:19 AM
Arizona law does prohibit selling firearms to the mentally ill. But they need to be identified in the system for the law to work. Jared Loughner's behavior gave plenty of warning to students and faculty at the community college. There were, reportedly, incidents with law enforcement intervention at his home. That was what prompted my question to Slap about protocols for identifying and dealing with the mentally ill. The relevance to SWC is that the sociopathy and/or fanaticism that lead to terrorism often give plenty of warning signals as well. Maybe the topics for discussion should be:

What are the protocols?
How did they break down in this instance?
How should they be changed?
How should they be extended to identify the truly dangerous without curtailing the freedom of ordinary citizens?

I think all states have laws that will allow them to prevent weapons sales to the mentally ill. They all also have laws allowing some level of non-consensual restraint of the mentally ill if they present some danger to themselves or others.

Let me be very clear, in many jurisdictions those laws are nearly meaningless. I've had to deal with a mentally ill relative for years, I have way too much personal experience with the gawping inadequacies of various state systems to believe very many of them have their acts together. Most do not. Even Virginia is backsliding, which is particularly stupid given it's proximity to Wash. DC.

It's only when the mentally ill kill the rich & powerful, or a whole lot of regular lower net worth people at one time, or the young in a group, that anyone considers doing anything serious about problems they've made with how they deal with mentally ill in their communities. I am both unsurprised by the events in Arizona, and I expect more of the same elsewhere. Community mental health is a *favorite* target of GOP politicians everywhere, and it's one of the first things on the block whenever anyone wants to tighten the belt. Communities care more about the grass getting cut at their children's parks than they do about their fellow citizens dying from mental illness. Sadly though when mentally ill people get violent they kill other people besides themselves. Like many of the other thoroughly ignored facts (Hello President McKinley) surrounding the issue of weapons and sick people, we're just going to keep doing what we've been doing.

The problem in this instance is not one of some type of weapon, rather it's literally a biological issue with the species that we are not handling well.

To give an example, I know without even doing hard comparisons (because I know about the state's 3 strike pizza culture) that it's way easier to get someone locked up in California for stealing a slice of pizza than it is to get them detained for being a threat to themselves or others.

The laws are a patchwork, and rather than being advocates & providing guidance about weapons regulation & the mentally ill, the NRA's so vicious about the 2nd amendment that no one's going to take this on. Yes, there's an obvious roaring dichotomy between a person who owns a weapon and cares about being responsible with it who then becomes *biologically ill* in such a manner that they can no longer be responsible, who then becomes the very sort of threat the NRA likes to rail against.

I could spend no end of days writing about all the totally awful behavior I have seen from courts and communities. Bad behavior in various `systems' is far more remarkable than any of the tinfoil wearing crazyness I've seen when I've visited my relative on nut wards.

People are kidding themselves if they think this will get fixed in any way. I expect more of the same. I'd recommend that anyone bothering to read this do the same. I predicted the VA Tech event fairly reliably, so I've got some reasonable basis to assert further negative outcomes.

slapout9
01-15-2011, 01:00 PM
anonomatic, that was very well said IMO.

anonamatic
01-17-2011, 08:40 AM
anonomatic, that was very well said IMO.

Thanks, this is a hard topic for me to write about. It's one colored by a lot of very ugly experiences in more than one state. There is a difference between how we wish things would be with respect to our political ideas, and the reality of how things are for us as a species.

People spouting off politically does have consequences, and it doesn't matter who is doing it, or what their motivation is, abstracted from any political framework the use of violent language has very predictable results. It is not at all responsible behavior on the part of any leader, and people are both right to question it's use, and to condemn it as well.

Politics is however is a separate issue than what we choose to do to deal with the problem of mental illness, and violent mental illness. If we ignore these problems, people die.

I think this incident shows what happens with an inadequate public safety net, and the inadequate public education that goes with it. The `debate' that detractors want to engage in over this subject is rooted in a pattern of shame based societal ignorance that says it's ok to treat the mentally ill as societal refuse, & blame their actions on fictional moral failings of their own choice. Never mind any science that tells them otherwise when the ignorant conventional wisdom they've been relying on fails yet again...

slapout9
01-17-2011, 11:24 AM
Link to last nights 60 minutes interview of the Secret Service agent Bryan Vossekuil and Dr. Robert Fein. These two are the primary authors of the Secret Service manual on Protective Intelligence and Threat Assessments for LE. Dosen't get any better than this folks IMO.



http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7253008n&tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel

AdamG
01-17-2011, 04:37 PM
Looks like Loughner had Bush Derangement Syndrome.


He became intrigued by antigovernment conspiracy theories, including that the Sept. 11 attacks were perpetrated by the government and that the country’s central banking system was enslaving its citizens. His anger would well up at the sight of President George W. Bush, or in discussing what he considered to be the nefarious designs of government.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/us/16loughner.html?_r=3&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=3&adxnnlx=1295272816-mzPTbiXmgfYK5d56DmiDjg


Loughner's brand of crazy was a Twinkie 35 feet long, weighing approximately 600 pounds.