Nine children among 16 dead after US serviceman attacks villagers

[Culpeper]

Afghans vow vengeance for soldier's killing spree


Distraught and furious Afghans vowed vengeance yesterday after a
US soldier apparently walked from a Nato base into the homes of
civilians, turning his weapon on the families inside and killing 16
people, nine of them children.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/afghans-vow-vengeance-for-soldiers-killing-spree-7561637.html

One person can FUBAR an entire effort. This is a windfall for the Taliban. The Taliban can do this sort of thing. Our side cannot afford it. I'm waiting for the details on the soldier himself.

[jmm99]

Those two concepts seem to clash. In any event, the "Taliban" agit-prop went into gear right away - the area is scarcely pro-Karzai and leans "Taliban" based on what is being reported. And, Karzai's big mouth, as usual, adds fuel to the fire.

From a legal standpoint - viewing it as a UCMJ problem, there's nothing for me to say until we get an AR 15-6, or some functional equivalent - and even better, a forensic psychiatric on the alleged shooter.

I'll post at Rule of Law in Iraq & Afghanistan (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=13105), at whatever page that's on, when some solid investigative information is released. In that thread, Bear and I have been talking about Son Thang (19 Feb 1970; also 16 homicides). What a mess !

Regards

Mike

[carl]

I am not so sure you can't do a rapid and thorough investigation. It depends upon the complexity of the case and how many people you can put on it. In this case I don't see things taking all that long. 1 man goes out and murders 16 people then walks home. The details of the crime itself won't be that hard to pin down.

From the standpoint of a defense lawyer and a prosecutor it may take longer to count as thorough because motivation comes into play (this is a guess Mike, please correct if needed). They may be looking forward to the trial, a long time in the future. But I think if an investigator is looking at why, just ask the guy today.

Sometimes I think Americans equate length of an investigation with thoroughness because in our country, there are so many games within games involved.

[82redleg]

If our justice system wasn't so warped, we'd be building a gallows in Kandahar right now, and this piece of human refuse would be swinging from it by the end of the week, with Al Jazeera in the front row, and live streaming the footage all over the world.

[ganulv]

the area is scarcely pro-Karzai
that there is an area which is pro-Karzai? :wry:

[Stan]

If our justice system wasn't so warped, we'd be building a gallows in Kandahar right now, and this piece of human refuse would be swinging from it by the end of the week, with Al Jazeera in the front row, and live streaming the footage all over the world.

Concur.
At this point the locals are really PO'd and rightfully so.
Let them hand the piece of Sierra !

[carl]

If our justice system wasn't so warped, we'd be building a gallows in Kandahar right now, and this piece of human refuse would be swinging from it by the end of the week, with Al Jazeera in the front row, and live streaming the footage all over the world.

It is interesting to me that the thing did the crime and then walked back to its base and turned itself in. If it wasn't so sure that it would be subject to the American justice system perhaps it would have reconsidered its actions. Perhaps at least the possibility that crimes would be punished inside Afghanistan by the Afghans would have had a dissuasive effect.

(My comment assumes the killer isn't crazy to the point of hearing voices and hallucinating, nor that it didn't have a brain tumor or something that it had reported to authority.)

[jmm99]

At this point, I'm not going to get into investigation techniques - good, botched or in between. Nor, am I going to spew some high-flown rhetoric about the legal rights, etc., of "S.Sgt. X from Fort Lewis" (if that is who he is). There will be plenty of time later to look at whatever judicial process comes into play.

Meanwhile, everybody who wants to build a gallows should say so - right here and now; and get it all out of your systems.

If I were Pres. Obama (which I'm not and I don't write the playbook), I'd get the man out of Astan to a secure location in the US - and take the short term flak.

Regards

Mike

[omarali50]

This is tragic, and while its fully in the category of "it could happen anywhere" (even though its more likely to happen in a war zone), that is not how it is going to be perceived and perceptions matter. An already flawed operation will probably sink faster after this.
Still, this psycho going postal (my apologies to postal workers, I know its an unfair term ,but by now everyone knows what it means) may concentrate some minds on the fact that there IS no visible strategy in Afghanistan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdNsltQXTVU
To say (as someone in some official position already has) that we will not allow this tragedy to obstruct the mission is to get people thinking "what is the mission"? When enough people think that, the emperor may suddenly feel very naked.
I am not saying there is absolutely no strategy. How would I know? at some level in the deepest recesses of the pentagon and the state dept, there may be several strategies. But they may be at cross-purposes, thats one problem with "secret" strategies...there may be several and nobody knows what is what. With unity of command and one man (say, the president) clearly in charge, at least HIS secret strategy would have some coherence. But that is not how the system is in the US (what president since Nixon would you think of as having a devious enough mind and enough interest in foreign policy to be in that position? Clinton had the IQ, but not the interest..anyway, the problem is likely systemic and not solved by having a different person pretending to be president),so that is not a relevant model. The publicly declared strategy (building a viable Afghan democratic government, etc etc) doesnt seem viable and, more to the point, doesnt look like the actual strategy anyway. People seem to have other unspoken (publicly officially unspoken) thoughts in mind. Maybe they are "containing Pakistan" or doing some strategic bullcrap re central Asia, China, Russia, whatever. In bygone days, we might assume that the elite knows what they are doing but if you watch long enough, that doesnt seem true either. Its a mess.
On the practical matter of the POS who did the shooting, it would have been far far better to shoot him dead right away. ANY trial and ANY punishment from here on will just add to the mess.
Sometimes, there really is no good choice.

[davidbfpo]

I have read a few reactions in the media to this incident and will add two below. Leaving aside the media focus and hype is this event really significant? I would say it is too early to say.

Where is the impact? In Afghanistan, the actual neighbourhood and beyond.

Given the criticism of US funded information operations here:http://circlingthelionsden.blogspot.com/2012/03/dubious-costly-us-propaganda-operations.html I'd not be optimistic on our local and in country response.

The "Circling" author ends with:
It is remarkable that despite the massive spending on IO in Afghanistan in recent years, it is the Taliban that continues to make the running. It operates a highly successful propaganda operation using a multi-language website, twitter and a number of spokesmen who can easily be contacted and who issue timely statements well in advance of any that come from military sources. And all for a few thousand dollars.

Now to the two comments, first the BBC's North America Chief Correspondent:
This killing spree won't, by itself, lead to a quickening of the pace of a pull-out. But it may mean less heed will be paid to those like Senator McCain who think the war is winnable and who think the troops should finish the job before they leave.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17335895

The Daily Telegraph's Pakistan correspondent concludes:
This is not the make or break moment in Afghanistan. The danger is that it will be turned into one by American politicians wondering whether it is time to speed up the withdrawal.

Link:http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/robcrilly/100143175/afghanistan-shootings-diplomats-in-kabul-are-already-discussing-a-doomsday-scenario/

[Steve Blair]

If our justice system wasn't so warped, we'd be building a gallows in Kandahar right now, and this piece of human refuse would be swinging from it by the end of the week, with Al Jazeera in the front row, and live streaming the footage all over the world.


Concur.
At this point the locals are really PO'd and rightfully so.
Let them hand the piece of Sierra !

And of course if we did that, the conspiracy folks would simply say that he was the scapegoat for a larger CIA/Government/UN conspiracy of some sort or another.

No good way out, that's for sure. As David points out, though, it's hard to project the long-term impact.

[carl]

The critical thing is whether this mass murder quickens the pace of the the ongoing pattern of ANSF people murdering ISAF people. That is what concerns me the most. If it does quicken that pace and it is bad enough, we will be out much sooner than anticipated and that will probably include the spec ops people.

[Stan]

And of course if we did that, the conspiracy folks would simply say that he was the scapegoat for a larger CIA/Government/UN conspiracy of some sort or another.

No good way out, that's for sure. As David points out, though, it's hard to project the long-term impact.

Agreed, there is no easy way out.
The Army has been handing out article 15s since the early 70s for looking at your Battery CO the wrong way. A snobby (barely out of college) O-3 can tarnish your potential career and ability to ever hold a Confidential security clearance (ever) because he doesn't like the way you looked at him.

But, you can freak out, destroy people's lives and forever tarnish the reputation of the entire US Military and simply end up with a dishonorable discharge and reduction in grade. So, the Delta Hotel in question will sit at home and wallow in his Sierra making my last 23 years look like a cake walk.

I disagree vehemently.


One witness said she saw the man drag a woman out of her house and repeatedly hit her head against a wall.

Officials have offered no explanation for the incident, but reports suggest the soldier might have been drunk, or had suffered a nervous breakdown.

He has 3 kids at home and while drunk shoots eight ?
There's your conspiracy theory !

[Steve Blair]

Agreed, there is no easy way out.
The Army has been handing out article 15s since the early 70s for looking at your Battery CO the wrong way. A snobby (barely out of college) O-3 can tarnish your potential career and ability to ever hold a Confidential security clearance (ever) because he doesn't like the way you looked at him.

But, you can freak out, destroy people's lives and forever tarnish the reputation of the entire US Military and simply end up with a dishonorable discharge and reduction in grade. So, the Delta Hotel in question will sit at home and wallow in his Sierra making my last 23 years look like a cake walk.

I disagree vehemently.



He has 3 kids at home and while drunk shoots eight ?
There's your conspiracy theory !

I'm not crazy about how the system works, either. There's no question that it's jacked, and in some cases favors those with rank over those who have none. Don't have to go back very far to find examples of that in action...some that really make you wonder.

But I know I'm preaching to the choir on that one.

And you know the sort of conspiracy that would spring up. He was the point man for a larger CIA plot to cripple Afghanistan by killing their women and children, choking off the future of the tribes. But when it went south, the evil Crusader gov'ment decided to whack the one man who knew the truth. Etc., etc. Like I said...no simple way out. One moron can do a world of hurt.

[Dayuhan]

If I were Pres. Obama (which I'm not and I don't write the playbook), I'd get the man out of Astan to a secure location in the US - and take the short term flak.

Unfortunately the flak is likely to be long term. Different environment of course, but one of the lasting and serious irritants over the military bases in my locale was the US habit of whisking away people accused of crimes. The flak didn't go away, if anything it escalated to mythical levels.

The only thing the US could do to alleviate local anger is to turn the guy over to local justice, which we won't do. No matter what the US does with him, it will be seen as insufficient, a coverup, or both.

More than ever I'm getting the feeling it's time to pack up, tell the Afghans something like "we're sorry for the inconvenience of our presence and we really, really hope you don't make us come back", and go away from that place. They'll sort something out; it will be a mess but it will be their mess. This is just not going anywhere we want to be.

Of course we won't do that either; if we were going to we should have done it a long time ago... IMO of course.

[Culpeper]

All I know is a lot of individuals are making some remarkable mistakes on the ground. And I'm not just talking about coalition people. Some Afghans have turned their weapons on their own coalition trainers as an example.

The problem lies in the fact that COIN cannot afford these mistakes. The other side can and do capitalize on them. They can and do go in a village and murder innocent people. They can afford to do that. It is in their playbook. Murder Incorporated.

We've had a lot problems with the other culture. Even to the point of people shooting their own people in the States. It is a complex and multi-issue problem. Feeling are going to be hurt but the cultural bug-a-boo needs to defined and addressed without all the ridiculous bureaucratic nonsense that loses wars in this day and age; i.e. after 1945.

When you add up all the events in the last year I would say that our current role in Afghanistan is completed. All that is left is diplomacy for strategic purposes. The longer we stay on the current path the more opportunity for more remarkable mistakes by individuals with enormous opportunity cost.

As for this string of mass murder, I'm still waiting for what is the story with this screw up and we all know people close to him probably had a bad feeling about this guy and nobody did a thing because of his rights and blah blah blah.

[Culpeper]

Those looking for the gallows have just cause. We have done it.

"Private Slovik is buried in Plot "E" of Oise-Aisne American Cemetery and Memorial in Fre-en-Tardenois, alongside 95 American soldiers executed for rape and/or murder."(emphasis added).

[JMA]

Those looking for the gallows have just cause. We have done it.

"Private Slovik is buried in Plot "E" of Oise-Aisne American Cemetery and Memorial in Fre-en-Tardenois, alongside 95 American soldiers executed for rape and/or murder."(emphasis added).

OK... now do it again... and quickly!

[omarali50]

"we" are not going to do it again. The world war was a different war anyway, but even the colonial wars of olde are not going to be repeated with any success. Times have changed. I have to run, but the bottom line is "it aint gonna happen" and that is one small reason the whole exercise needs to be re-evaluated.
That too "aint gonna happen". Not just saying "it aint gonna happen the way I would like" (who cares about that). I am saying "it aint gonna happen the way the clear majority of posters here will think and say". That is more interesting.
Why not? I dont know. But I know there is a great novel in there somewhere.

[jmm99]

Please clarify: are you saying that S.Sgt. X should be taken out and hanged right now - if so, why bother with hanging; a .45 hardball in the nape of the neck would be far more efficient and effective ?

Or, would you bother with the intermediate niceties of a GCM - an inconvenience accorded the deserter Slovik and the 95 murderers/rapists ?

Let me make it perfectly f**king clear: I carry no brief against the death penalty. I carry no brief for complicated appellate review. I don't even carry a brief for GCMs. They just happen to be what we do.

Mike Hoare's summary system would be fine with me, especially the part where the decider of the sentence personally has to execute the sentence. I doubt whether Hoare's system would be acceptable to many of you, especially if you were the accused and I were the decider.

Regards

Mike

[Bob's World]

I doubt there is any way to reconcile Afghan perceptions of Justice and US perceptions of Justice on this one. Certainly not within the framework of a western legal system.

This has a global and long-term impact on US influence, far beyond the context of the facts and rumors of this tragic event.

There is no way to "un-ring" this bell.

[jmm99]

From AP: Afghan officials attacked at US killing spree site (http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/3d281c11a96b4ad082fe88aa0db04305/Article_2012-03-13-AS-Afghanistan/id-525f603e6cff499aaad4e9c1bed90f68) (by MIRWAIS KHAN, Mar. 13, 2012 6:35 AM ET):


BALANDI, Afghanistan (AP) — Taliban militants opened fire Tuesday on an Afghan government delegation visiting villages in southern Afghanistan where a U.S. soldier is suspected of killing 16 civilians.

The gunfire killed an Afghan soldier who was providing security for the delegation in Balandi village, said Gen. Abdul Razaq, the police chief for Kandahar province where the visit took place. Another Afghan soldier and a military prosecutor were wounded, he said.

The delegation, which included two of President Hamid Karzai's brothers and other senior officials, was in a mosque for a memorial service for those killed in Sunday's shooting when the gunfire erupted. ... (diverse viewpoints in story).

Regards

Mike

[ganulv]

I doubt there is any way to reconcile Afghan perceptions of Justice and US perceptions of Justice on this one. Certainly not within the framework of a western legal system.
Does counterinsurgency 2.0 address incommensurability (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incommensurability) in any way?

[carl]

Please clarify: are you saying that S.Sgt. X should be taken out and hanged right now - if so, why bother with hanging; a .45 hardball in the nape of the neck would be far more efficient and effective ?

Or, would you bother with the intermediate niceties of a GCM - an inconvenience accorded the deserter Slovik and the 95 murderers/rapists ?

Let me make it perfectly f**king clear: I carry no brief against the death penalty. I carry no brief for complicated appellate review. I don't even carry a brief for GCMs. They just happen to be what we do.

Mike Hoare's summary system would be fine with me, especially the part where the decider of the sentence personally has to execute the sentence. I doubt whether Hoare's system would be acceptable to many of you, especially if you were the accused and I were the decider.

Regards

Mike

Mike: The outlook you object to is an important one. It reflects the lack of confidence of many in the US that justice will be done and even if it is, it will take years and tides of money. If that is what some of us think, imagine what the Afghans think. I understand that the rule of law is important and that we must follow the rules we set, but in 1944 the American military could execute murderers and now we can't. That frustrates people.

[Stan]

Mike: The outlook you object to is an important one. It reflects the lack of confidence of many in the US that justice will be done and even if it is, it will take years and tides of money.

Indeed, Carl. He will simply be declared sick in the head and sent home. He will join the jobless and useless. The remainder of US will bear his bills and misgivings for a long time. He will be forgiven for being a piece of Sierra while the remainder of us suck it up and continue to be hunted and shot at. He will wallow in misery when his cable is out, while we cover for his pathetic lack of intestinal fortitude.

In the unlikely event he is found guilty and has a conscience, we will continue to feed him and pay for his cable TV in prison.

He signed an oath and he blew it.

[omarali50]

I hate to say it but I cannot help it: "aint gonna happen" seems to be everyone's opinion. How then to cut the Gordian Knot? (not so much about this POS sergeant but about "the mission")

For another pessimistic assessment (I dont necessarily agree with the details, but strategic paralysis does appear to be general).

http://www.scribd.com/doc/80464630/2012-The-Year-of-War-and-Grand-Strategic-Anarchy

[jmm99]

You assume too much as to what I personally do or do not object to. Most all of my posts are "legal opinions" based on what the "law" is - in short, subject to constraints external to myself. My wife says that I am all gray on the outside; but, all black and white on the inside. She is correct.

A very brief personal JMM (John Michael McCarthy) insider. I personally don't give a damn for the "Rule of Law", for "S.Sgt.X", and for all the rest of the gold braid that will go along with this case. I'd be more happy to have lived in a hunter-gatherer society (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/album.php?albumid=34) where I and other members of the "Clan" would make the "law". Had I lived in that society, I probably would not be living at 69, but that is another story. BLUF (whatever one thinks of it) we in our complex society do have external constraints, don't we.

I'm aware of all viewpoints on the death penalty. I also see Stan as saying or almost saying: based on the facts Stan now knows, the man is guilty and should be executed. If I am wrong, Stan, correct me. Stan does not say he would perform the execution; and I don't want to put those words in Stan's mouth. But, if he said that explicitly and spelled it out in bold caps - fine, that's OK, because that's his black & white decision, and Stan is being honest.

The facts I know now about "S.Sgt. X" are not sufficient - I simply do not have enough data to analyze and reach a decison to act by my putting a .45 to the back of his head and pulling the trigger. That is not being "gray"; I simply do not know enough data to make a black & white personal decision. That is my present position - and that is written in black & white.

As another personal sidebar: when I look at "ROE situations", I ask (1) what would I decide, as the shooter, if I had no constraints (externals) subject only to my own restraints (internals); and (2) what should I decide, as the shooter, under the constraints (externals) then existing as I understand them. In fact, I use my imagination (as best I can) to try to look at those situations from the standpoints of all who were involved.

BTW: If you want to get into the political arena re: the death penalty (as some comments in this post and in this thread certainly are), then you should get active with people such as Brooks Patterson (http://www.oakgov.com/exec/about/patterson.html). Brooks is too controversial for state-wide office, but his county has given him multiple terms (more before that as prosecutor). He finds the death penalty acceptable (so do I). From WXYZ, Death penalty case involving 2001 fatal shooting sparks debate in Metro Detroit (http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/wayne_county/death-penalty-case-involving-2001-fatal-shooting-sparks-debate-in-metro-detroit):


Posted: 07/12/2010

DETROIT (WXYZ) - It was years before federal investigators finally determined seven men were responsible for the fatal shooting in Dearborn of an armored truck guard in December of 2001. Now, one of the crew, 36-year-old Timmothy Dennis O’Reilly is on trial in Federal District Court for the murder of 30-year-old Norman Stephens of Detroit, the father of six children who was ambushed while servicing an ATM at the Dearborn Federal Credit Union.
...
But the possibility of a death sentence upon conviction has re-opened the debate on the ultimate punishment that hasn’t been allowed in Michigan since 1847. Federal law still allows the death penalty in capitol cases.

“I’d like to know more about the case, but I don’t know,” said Megan Shafto. “I’m Catholic, and we don’t approve of the death penalty, but sometimes, maybe,” Megan added.

“An eye for an eye, definitely, so I'm for it, absolutely” said Jay Teshka.

“I’m against the death penalty, because there’s no turning back once you’ve executed an innocent man,” said Howard Maxwell.

Former prosecutor and Oakland Co. Executive L. Brooks Patterson is a longtime death penalty advocate.

“With the use of DNA evidence, the system is closer to fool-proof, ”Patterson said. “But can mistakes be made, of course.”

In the event, the accused was found guilty on all charges; but Jury Unable to Reach a Unanimous Decision for Detroit Man Convicted on Charges of Murder and Bank Robbery (http://www.fbi.gov/detroit/press-releases/2010/de082510.htm):


U.S. Attorney’s Office
Eastern District of Michigan
August 25, 2010

A federal jury in Detroit today was unable to reach a unanimous decision during the penalty phase in the case of U.S. v. Timothy Dennis O’Reilly, 37, a Detroit resident originally from Camarillo, California. O’Reilly had been convicted on charges including murder, bank robbery, and conspiracy relating to armored car robberies in Dearborn and Detroit, Michigan, United States Attorney Barbara L. McQuade announced.
...
The jury deliberated for seven hours before announcing that they were unable to reach a unanimous decision. As a result, the court must impose a sentence of life in prison without possibility of release. The penalty phase of the trial began on August 9, 2010. O’Reilly was convicted on August 3, 2010, which concluded the 11-day trial before United States District Judge Victoria A. Roberts. ...

So, people will reach different conclusions about the death penalty - which I am not arguing here.

Nor am I arguing that the "Rule of Law" should be followed. John Allen has already stated that U.S. law will be followed (CNN interview). He could, of course, be overruled by President Obama, who could hand "S.Sgt. X" over to the Afghanis. Astan has the worst and most corrupt legal system in the World. Not withstanding, their cry of "Homang come down" could be answered with "Holman come down". But, lest we digress, I'm not presently arguing that either.

The basic proposition is very simple: Based on the evidence you have before you now, is there enough evidence for you to decide whether you would personally execute "S.Sgt. X" now ?

Regards

Mike

[carl]

Mike:

I am not talking about the death penalty at all. You seemed to take very strong exception to the opinion you appeared to feel Culpepper expressed in your reply to him. I am not arguing for or against either one of you. What I am saying is many people in the US are extremely frustrated with the legal system as it now exists and has developed over the years. That is important. I realize that all the various procedures developed for specific reasons but the cumulative effect is that us laymen see something we don't have a lot of confidence in.

The US could execute military murderers in WWII, we could take decisive action quickly. Now it would be a miracle if the thing from Ft. Hood or the thing in Afghanistan were to receive the death penalty or for the cases to be resolved in less than several years. That dichotomy (wow, that is the first time I got to use that word in a sentence, if I used it right) frustrates us, at least it does me. We have so wrapped ourselves in procedure we can't seem to get anything done, even things so obvious as the Ft. Hood murders and perhaps this case.

[carl]

He will simply be declared sick in the head and sent home.

It has already started Stan. I was listening to Hannity on the radio and in the intro he said there might be extenuating circumstances. I couldn't listen to the rest. The tone just got to me.

Now maybe there will be something, a brain tumor that caused genuine hallucinations and voices etc. But I doubt it. What I expect to see is what I remember after the My Lai killings became public knowledge, people defending the killings and even calling Calley and the rest "heroes." I had hoped I would never see my countrymen behaving like that again because it sickened me.

[omarali50]

Its part of the system. A segment of politicians has latched on to faux patriotism as their trademark and its most exaggerated version is to make sure that "one of our own" is always ten times better than any damn foreigner. It has nothing to do with the actual event. Fox news will soon have someone whose job is to defend him, not so much to defend him (they couldnt care less) but to see if they can get some idiot on MSNBC to go overboard in response.
Which is another reason foreign adventures are not easy to manage these days. A very strong leader could probably do more to make sure such kooks are kept in their place, but Obama is not that leader, so expect no miracles, especially not in an election year.

[Culpeper]

First, I wasn't advocating taking this guy out and having him shot on the spot.

Anyway, whats makes a murderer with special circumstances in uniform any different than any one of those convicted people with special circumstances on Texas Death Row? Except maybe the latter are sure to be executed for far less. I do believe the UCMJ does have the authority to execute this soldier if the UCMJ sees fit to do so. Also, one does not have to personally carry out an execution to make the sentence bona fide. For crying out loud, even gang bangers of the 1980s didn't commit this sort of genocide in their South Central L.A. neighborhoods at the height of their little wars not to mention their casualty rates were much higher per capita than Iran and Afghanistan combined. So, I'm not going to buy this guy was pushed too hard by the military. Yes, WWII was a different time that called for different measures but is it too much to ask that it be considered that if one soldier, for the act of mass murder, loses a war for a nation be shot by a firing squad if tried and convicted by court martial? After all, Eisenhower executed Slovik to set an example. Soldiers have been executed to end a war as well. Like the Boar War. So, there is nothing phenomenal about considering the death sentence during the court martial of this soldier.

[Ken White]

If the allegations prove to be correct, turn him over to the Afghans. He blew any right he had to UCMJ protection. To paraphrase Kipling, let the women go after him with flashing knives...

No sense crying about it. It's done. It has nothing to do with COIN foolishness, with the wrong war in the wrong place, with combat stress, with training or even with METT-TC. It's a pure people thing so I'm also with jmm99. There but for the grace of Harold go I. Never know what will cause a flip out or how it will progress.

I'm also with Bob's World. This will haunt the US for years in strange and unforeseen ways, more so than, say, attacking Iraq. That was national, this is personal. Almost no one remembers Truong Long, almost everyone recalls My Lai. Levels matter...

[tequila]

Joshua Foust makes an excellent point (http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/12/opinion/foust-afghan-shooting-reax/index.html?hpt=op_t1). This is probably not a game-changer from an Afghan perspective, since most Afghans make little distinction between a deliberate American massacre and a slaughter by error at this point in the war. Sure, the Taliban will try and make hay, but they do anytime Afghan civilians die at NATO hands, which happens often enough to not make the news anymore.

Where it may be a game changer, the way My Lai was, is in the American domestic sphere. The urge to cut and run seems to be only accelerating at this point.

Should we turn him over to the Afghans? Should we have left Ray Davis and his incompetent QRF to the Pakistanis? The pilots who killed nine Afghan children last year? The precedent set would be disastrous.

[carl]

Should we turn him over to the Afghans? Should we have left Ray Davis and his incompetent QRF to the Pakistanis? The pilots who killed nine Afghan children last year? The precedent set would be disastrous.

Mostly for the sake of argument, one incident was partly self defense, one was a stupid mistake (part of a continuing pattern), but this last appears to be plain old criminal murder. It might be good to set a precedent that if you commit criminal murder, the locals handle you.

If a soldier did the same thing in Japan, walked off the base, murdered 16 Japanese, then walked back onto the base and turned himself in; who would handle the case? I don't know which is why I ask.

Do you know what the outcome of the investigation into the killing of those children by the helos last year was?

[Ken White]

...This is probably not a game-changer from an Afghan perspective, since most Afghans make little distinction between a deliberate American massacre and a slaughter by error at this point in the war.I agree but not due to the politically tinged reasons reason you or Foust state, rather simply because most Afghans are used to death, period.
Where it may be a game changer, the way My Lai was, is in the American domestic sphere. The urge to cut and run seems to be only accelerating at this point.Funny, having been around at the time I do not recall My Lai as being a US 'game changer' -- other than with the pseudo intelligentsia who latched on to it as yet another reason to not be in Viet Nam. The majority of Americans didn't turn a hair and no American politician got upset unless it was to his or his party's political advantage to do so. Some things don't change much...
Should we turn him over to the Afghans? Should we have left Ray Davis and his incompetent QRF to the Pakistanis? The pilots who killed nine Afghan children last year? The precedent set would be disastrous.Carl's already correctly called you on this. Military or professional incompetence is one thing, military misadventure another and murder is murder. Very different issues.

(Though I could make a case for being almost as unforgiving of incompetence... :wry: )

In fairness, while the contention of Carl and I is, I believe, correct (and noting that we both are saying IF it's proven to be as it seems -- right now too early to tell, really...), your point on precedent is well founded. It would indeed be misunderstood and seized upon -- but I think that goes with the territory. Start messing around in places and with people you do not understand and bad things are a given. So, yes a bad precedent but perhaps one that might encourage less stooging about in other nations...

[Uboat509]

While it might be emotionally pleasing to turn this guy over to Afghan justice, which would almost certainly be swifter and more decisive than US justice, it would set a terrifying precedent. We have come under fire for turning Afghans over to Afghan justice at times when it was believed that the accused would not receive due process. How much due process do you think that this guy would get? By turning him over to Afghan justice we are basically saying that he is guilty and that he deserves to be punished. Whatever pretense the Afghan courts throw together for show do not really count for much. Based on the reports coming out from this incident, this guy probably does deserve that. Lord knows that I am not going to be shedding a lot of tears for him. But what about the next one? It is fairly easy to condemn this guy but not every case is this cut and dried. Where do you draw the line?

In any case, I, and I know that I am in the minority here, would much rather not see this guy get the death penalty. I would much rather see him get life in prison and go to general population in an American prison. If he gets the death penalty he will live out his days in a protected cell by himself. General population would be different or so I am given to understand. He is a child murderer and even prisoners have a moral code. My understanding is that some of the things that happen to child murderers in US prisons would make Torquemada queasy.

[tequila]

Mostly for the sake of argument, one incident was partly self defense, one was a stupid mistake (part of a continuing pattern), but this last appears to be plain old criminal murder. It might be good to set a precedent that if you commit criminal murder, the locals handle you.

If a soldier did the same thing in Japan, walked off the base, murdered 16 Japanese, then walked back onto the base and turned himself in; who would handle the case? I don't know which is why I ask.

Do you know what the outcome of the investigation into the killing of those children by the helos last year was?

I agree with you that in reality the helo incident was NOT murder.

But most Afghans likely disagree with you on that. The point of the Foust link was that these murders and the accidental killing of the children earlier this year are not much different in the view of most Afghans. If the point of handing this guy over is to assuage Afghan rage, you might as well do the same with the helo pilots or the AF guys who burned the Qurans.

The precedent that would set means it will not happen.

We have a SOFA with Japan which governs what happens with U.S. military personnel charged with crimes against Japanese civilians. We don't have on with Afghanistan - more to the point, Japan has a functioning justice system, which Afghanistan does not.

[carl]

Tequila:

If it were to be done, the point of handing him over to the locals would not be to assuage Afghan rage, the points would be condign (another first in word use, two in one night!) punishment for the individual and the dissuasive effect it would have on anybody else who felt like having fun with the locals, the Black Heart and Kill Team types. A well functioning local justice system is not needed to accomplish those two purposes.

I can see how Afghans no longer distinguish between murder and other mistaken or not so mistaken killings. If it isn't that helo incident it is another, if not that it is the Marine spec ops unit shooting up the countryside for who knows why, or it is a night raid gone bad faking evidence etc etc etc for years and years. And nothing much happens beyond the standard apology and money paid. This is just another in the string. I think it was Kilcullen who said that each one of these incidents should be treated as a friendly fire incident and handled with the same rigor and seriousness. They aren't. If we had done that or at least made a good try, the Afghans may have been willing to cut us some slack. It is probably too late now though.

[Ken White]

While it might be emotionally pleasing to turn this guy over to Afghan justice...Based on the reports coming out from this incident, this guy probably does deserve that...Where do you draw the line?I wouldn't turn him over to Afghan justice at at all. I wouldn't turn him over to anyone unless it was well and duly proven that he in fact did what is alleged -- that would take a US Court Martial (which could be convened and completed at KAF in less than a month or so) and then IF he were guilty, give him to the villagers, no Afghan justice involved in the formal sense and no intent to serve as an example to deter others (anyone that apparently nutty wouldn't be deterred...), nor any intent to calm the Afghans -- merely an eye for an eye...

Yes, that's barbaric. So is war. I'm a barbarian; can't say I really like war but it doesn't bother me. Nor does killing those who deserve it or who are trying to kill me. What was apparently done by someone -- and I have seen others in other places do similar things over the years -- was so wrong as to not deserve any better end. That depth of evil does bother me, barbarian or no and IF what's reported is fairly accurate, then my line was crossed (as occurred with the guys from the 506th in the Black Hearts thing). Most everyone has their own line and most adapt to circumstances.

Such a quick trial and turn over is not going not going to happen and I know it. I also know that my line isn't everyone's or the system's and that's okay. However, such a turnover if the affair is proven to be as it appears would fit my perhaps overdeveloped, mayhap even perverted, sense of justice.

Since that isn't going to happen, I agree with your handling and end result. ;)

[jmm99]

that the death penalty should apply to murderers under special circumstances are preaching to the choir of Brooks Patterson and John McCarthy. Of course, it should apply; even though, as Brooks said, despite the system being closer to fool-proof (DNA evidence), mistakes can be made.

But, if you are one who propounds the death penalty, then you damn well should answer my basic proposition, which is (so I am crystal clear):


The basic proposition is very simple: Based on the evidence you have before you now, is there enough evidence for you to decide whether you would personally execute "S.Sgt. X" [or murderer of your choice] now ?

even if you only answer that question to yourself.

If your bitch is with the criminal law system, then instead of griping, find a non-party group (all groups are partisan) that pushes your agenda. You will find one to suit you because they are spread across the ideological spectrum.

My personal agenda over the years has been the NRA and Second Amendment Foundation (which accept the death penalty and strict enforcement of existing criminal laws as an added bonus). I really don't see "reform" of the criminal justice system happening; nor do I see the death penalty making much of a difference in general deterrence (obviously it is the ultimate specific deterrent).

Thus, my goal is enhancing the rights of the "Armed Citizen" in his or her own defense and the defense of others. It is much better to preemp the would be murderer than to punish the actual murderer. I kill him rather than he kill me. In saying that I realize that the average "Armed Citizen" (including me) is not going to stand up against someone well-trained and experienced in CQB. But, at least there is a chance. End my "political" plug.

Culpepper: If I were the decider personally (no external constraints - think Tony Waller and Arthur Day combined), I would require the informal equivalents of a good AR15-6 report and of a good forensic psychiatric. Then, I would give the guy the opportunity to speak or remain silent. If after that, the "evidence" (note the absence of formal rules) flipped my switch by showing sane commission of the acts, without some other plausible defense, I would find the guy guilty. Then, I'd have to execute him because that's what I've said I'd do. Inject an excellent service record and plausible evidence of diminished capacity driving the acts, for example, and I probably wouldn't reach the death penalty. As I've said, the evidence presently before me is insufficient for me to decide anything.

Warning - in legal opinion mode (what the present constraints are) for the next five paragraphs. In his Son Thang book (1997), Gary Solis noted that the last military execution was in 1961 (the last Marine was executed in the early 1800s). Of course, Gary was correct when he wrote that - in detail, see Number of military executions in the UCMJ era (http://www.caaflog.com/2008/07/29/number-of-military-executions-in-the-ucmj-era/) (2008).

I think that's still the case - e.g, the Ronald Gray case. SIGNIFICANT MILITARY JUSTICE DEVELOPMENT: President approves Gray's death sentence (http://caaflog.blogspot.com/2008/07/significant-military-justice.html) (2008) (interesting comment by Gray's roommate at very end). Ronald A. Gray was still alive in Feb 2012 (Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_A._Gray) and Fayetteville Observer (http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2012/02/10/1156372?sac=fo.local)). If I've missed a military execution, please advise.

So, the UCMJ does provide for the death penalty in premeditated murder cases - not only for the shooter, but for aiders and abetters also. In all death penalty cases, notice of intent to seek the death penalty must be given by the Convening Authority. Your Manual for Courts-Martial has all that stuff.

Warning - still in legal opinion mode. "S.Sgt. X" has apparently muled up - anyone who has followed Haditha and read about Son Thang knows that is the only smart thing to do. So, we don't know what (if anything) he will say at trial. By that time, he may be catatonic (makes an easy defense - the case can't be tried - been there, once), but not likely. The accused's testimony at trial (without prior statements) can be very outcome determinative - not saying it would be in this case.

Warning - still in legal opinion mode. We can expect two issues to be raised by the defense: (1) undue command influence (our National Command Authorities, POTUS and SecDef, have probably been talking too much); and (2) contamination of the forensics and "crime scenes" (villagers and Taliban). Not saying they are winners either, but they will be raised.

I'm not going to get involved in the SOFA discussion - have fun, guys. BTW: Carl's question:


If a soldier did the same thing in Japan, walked off the base, murdered 16 Japanese, then walked back onto the base and turned himself in; who would handle the case?

is a good one. I just don't want to talk about that now. So I won't.

Regards

Mike

PS: A "SOFA" with the Astan Gov't was mentioned in a footnote to the USG Brief or Appendix in the Bagram habeas case (either District or Circuit phase) as being contained in "diplomatic notes". I don't know if that "agreement" (a type of executive-executive agreement) has been published. Right now, I'm not going to find out. I didn't think there was a US-Afghanistan agreement on Governance, Economics and Security until Ken White wised me up to the 2005 Strategic Partnership Agreement (still in effect) signed by Pres. Bush and Karzai. That has been published. Warning: Astan is a minefield of "memoranda of understanding" - Take care.

[Dayuhan]

From the perspective of controlling the negative impact of the incident on the war effort, the only way out its a quick determination of guilt in the simplest sense - did he do it - and if guilty, turn over to the Afghans for disposal. "Diminished capacity" or American ideas about the rights of the accused are going to carry no weight at all with Afghans.

We won't do that of course, because the rules don't allow it. People who care about the war effort and the lives that will likely be lost if we follow the rules will wish we could avoid the rules, but wishing won't make that happen.

Not much left but to do what we do by our rules, and prepare to eat the consequences. It might not be the worst time to start thinking about an accelerated timetable for withdrawal.

[carl]

Mike:

In the Foust opinion piece Tequila referenced, it is reported that the villagers didn't resist the thing because they thought it was a night raid. Foust finds that a little dark and so do I. I am still mulling this over in my head but it seems that in a way we are training Afghans to be passive in the face of aggression, almost the way it seems sometimes American police expect Americans to be passive in the face of no-knock raids.

I remember in the past giving traffic tickets to people from the L.A. area. I would walk up to the car and often they would be staring straight ahead with their hands held stiffly on the wheel or in some odd position where they were visible. Their apprehension was clearly evident. They were afraid of me and were doing what they thought it took not to set me off. I only remember people from L.A. doing this and it really bothered me. I wondered what was going over there in Southern California that had turned average motorists into fearful sheep. It disturbed me because I had signed up to do a police job amongst free people, not to be a jailer in a vast open air facility. If that phenomena is carrying over into our conduct of affairs overseas, it is a very bad thing.

[Stan]

I'm aware of all viewpoints on the death penalty. I also see Stan as saying or almost saying: based on the facts Stan now knows, the man is guilty and should be executed. If I am wrong, Stan, correct me. Stan does not say he would perform the execution; and I don't want to put those words in Stan's mouth. But, if he said that explicitly and spelled it out in bold caps - fine, that's OK, because that's his black & white decision, and Stan is being honest.

Regards

Mike

Mike,
Here's the deal:
As an NCO and soldier, there is not enough evidence. What he did is clear and I doubt much more will come from it. But, why was he let out of his cage with a weapon at that hour alone. More heads to fry than just his IMO.

As a father, there is little stopping me from building the gallows myself.

This from Ken is word-for-word what I would see happening:


I wouldn't turn him over to Afghan justice at at all. I wouldn't turn him over to anyone unless it was well and duly proven that he in fact did what is alleged -- that would take a US Court Martial (which could be convened and completed at KAF in less than a month or so) and then IF he were guilty, give him to the villagers, no Afghan justice involved in the formal sense and no intent to serve as an example to deter others (anyone that apparently nutty wouldn't be deterred...), nor any intent to calm the Afghans -- merely an eye for an eye...



PS. Don't waste a perfectly good .45 round on that Delta Hotel :mad:

Regards, Stan

[Ken White]

US Courts Martial can have Non Commissioned Officers, enlisted folks, on the panel -- or military jury as it now seems to be called -- at the choice of the accused. They very rarely have any on the advice of Counsel. When they do appear, many are usually challenged off peremptorily or for cause. It should now be obvious to all why this is so... :D

Unbending? Beady eyed? Lacking in good old human compassion? Implacably vicious? Who, us? :cool:

[Stan]

Unbending? Beady eyed? Lacking in good old human compassion? Implacably vicious? Who, us? :cool:

How about bald with a shi...ty attitude :D
He'd better hope I'm not selected !

[Ken White]

It works... :D

[jmm99]

I get you - no bad on your part in my eyes. The flavor I got was that to you this guy committed a form of treason - just as to me, Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols were guilty of treason against their country, even though they were not charged with that crime. They collaberated in an act of war against the US in which people died. Both should now be dead.

That being said, I don't get emotional about these cases. I suppose Yale Kamisar (like Ken, a Korean Police Action participant), my Criminal Law & Procedure + Con Law prof, would say: JMM, you suffer from "trained indifference" - or, it just may be my personality. In any event, to me, death penalty situations are best viewed non-emotionally. E.g., The Green Mile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Green_Mile_(film)).

Carl: Can't help you on that. I've been advised (by "senior LEOs" ;)) that, on a traffic stop, I'd best open the driver's window, keep both hands on the wheel high, and let the officer give the instructions.

Of course, Astan is not a law enforcement situation (no matter how much some folks would like to make it that). The people had 30 years of being subjugated by armed conflicts before we got there. The "Armed Citizen" cannot exist in that environment because a neutral "Armed Citizen" will be viewed as a threat by one or all sides to the conflict. The people become passive because their "Armed Citizens" have either been killed or disarmed. What I've said is a sweeping generality not true in all areas.

There is now a Wiki on this, Panjwai shooting spree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjwai_shooting_spree).

Two news items:

AP: Afghan official says surveillance video shows US soldier surrendering after civilians killed (http://www.newser.com/article/d9tgcat00/afghan-official-says-surveillance-video-shows-us-soldier-surrendering-after-civilians-killed.html) (14 Mar 2012; MIRWAIS KHAN and SEBASTIAN ABBOT):


The U.S. soldier suspected of killing 16 Afghan villagers on a rampage was caught on surveillance video that showed him walking up to his base, laying down his weapon and raising his arms in surrender, according to an Afghan official who viewed the footage.

The official said Wednesday there were also two to three hours of video footage covering the time of the attack that Afghan investigators are trying to get from the U.S. military. He spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue. .... (more)

"S.Sgt X" surrendered, we know that. If there are two to three hours of video footage (and/or other sensors), evidence is coming on board - depends on its quality. We have already seen the forensics team picking up casings.

AP: American soldier suspected of killing 16 Afghan civilians flown out of country (http://www.newser.com/article/d9tgegd81/american-soldier-suspected-of-killing-16-afghan-civilians-flown-out-of-country.html) (14 Mar 2012; by HEIDI VOGT):


A U.S. military official says the American soldier accused of killings 16 Afghan civilians on a shooting spree has been flown out of the country.

The official said Wednesday that the soldier has been flown to a "pretrial confinement facility" in another country but did not provide further details. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the information had not yet been publicly announced.

The official did not provide a reason for the move, saying only that the decision had been made to continue legal proceedings outside of Afghanistan.

Thus, Holman didn't come down and isn't going to.

Regards

Mike

[JMA]

Who removed Backwards Observer's post?

[Backwards Observer]

Who removed Backwards Observer's post?

I removed it. I thought it might upset the natives. Henceforth, I should prefer to focus solely on the positive...it's time to laugh again.

[M-A Lagrange]

"S.Sgt X" surrendered, we know that. If there are two to three hours of video footage (and/or other sensors), evidence is coming on board - depends on its quality. We have already seen the forensics team picking up casings.

What supprises me and also, I must say, piss me off a little, it the fact there are like 2 to 3 hours of video surveillance.
And nobody saw it happening?, No body reacted?
What are the video surveillance made for then?

I know this is kind of naive reaction but I would think that if you have video surveillance it is to actually have early warning mechanisms and immediat response team ready.

The man went mad for sure but it also feels like the whole system has failed somehow.

[JMA]

I removed it. I thought it might upset the natives. Henceforth, I should prefer to focus solely on the positive...it's time to laugh again.

To borrow from Kipling's poem Gunga Din: "You're a better man than I am"

[Backwards Observer]

To borrow from Kipling's poem Gunga Din: "You're a better man than I am"

Ah, ha h..(choke), hahar, (cough) hargh, harrr (spit)...the hell with it.

[stanleywinthrop]

The UCMJ was written as an adhoc justice system which-nominally-should be fairly swift--or at least swifter than most civilian systems.

What seems evident is that for whatever reason the UCMJ has turned glacial when it comes to high profile cases. Wuterich took 7-SEVEN! years to go to trial. Hasan is supposed to go to trial on June 12, 2012--almost three years. Better, but certainly not swift

By contrast, in the federal system the government is required to bring a case to trial within 70 days of indictment. The defense must consent if the government wishes to delay beyond that (in most circumstances).

There is no doubt that Sgt. X's court martial will take years to get to as well. My bet is 5 yrs minimum.

[ganulv]

What seems evident is that for whatever reason the UCMJ has turned glacial when it comes to high profile cases. Wuterich took 7-SEVEN! years to go to trial.
but I am assuming it is no coincidence that Wuterich’s court martial took place the month after the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.

[jmm99]

Bonjour,

What I've read is that the video was taken from a blimp. If so, command & control over the blimp and its video feeds was probably not at the OutPost where the shooter was stationed. Or, were there multiple video feeds (and/or sound feeds) from other sensors - some under the OP's C&C ? "Prophet" might be all over the place, but he doesn't necessarily add 2+2=4. I don't know at this time.

For the sake of discussion, I've taken (from the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjwai_shooting_spree)) what could be the existing facts re: the geography and timeline (not known to me):


According to official reports, a heavily-armed American soldier left his base at 3:00 a.m. local time wearing night vision goggles. He was wearing a traditional Afgan clothing over his ISAF fatigues. The soldier proceeded to attack three civilian homes in the villages of Alkozai and Najeeban ... Eleven members of the same family were killed in Najeeban, then their bodies were partially burned. Four members of another family were killed in Alkozai. ...
...
Following the events at Alkozai and Najeeban a U.S. soldier handed himself over into ISAF custody. Afghan forces spotted him leaving his outpost before the massacre and U.S. commanders on base assembled their troops for a head count when it was discovered that the soldier was missing. A patrol was dispatched to find the missing soldier; it did not find him until the soldier turned himself in at the base after the massacre. He was reportedly taken into custody without incident. There were no other military operations being conducted in the area at the time.

The surveillance video from the base [JMM: "from the base" may not be accurate] reportedly shows "the soldier walking up to his base covered in a traditional Afghan shawl. The soldier removes the shawl and lays his weapon on the ground, then raises his arms in surrender." The video was not disclosed to the public.

Footnotes omitted (see the Wiki).

So, before anyone gets pi$$ed off at higher-ups for not stopping the events that occured in the time between the shooter leaving and coming back, we have to know who knew what and when - and what the shooter was doing when and where. I don't have that data.

What is spooky here is the similarity with 1970 Son Thang (about 1500-2000 metres from the Marine Coy OP), where 16 people were killed at two separate locations (two houses in one; one house in another). The Marine patrol took less than an hour out and back. By a fluke, another Marine patrol (including an S-2 Lt. and a corpsman) were told by villagers of the killings shortly after. That patrol was able to make a good forensic investigation of the three scenes.

Once the facts are in, Lagrange would be a better judge of small unit reaction time than McCarthy. You've been in what, say, a half-dozen or more $hit-holes over the last decade.

If you end up judging, look at it not only from the standpoint of the villagers, but also from the standpoint of the person in charge at the OP.

colonialement,

Mike

[stanleywinthrop]

but I am assuming it is no coincidence that Wuterich’s court martial took place the month after the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.

Exactly. My belief is that the convening authority is responsible for most of the delay and the delay is for political, not legal reasons.

Is that justice?

I'll bet Sgt. X's trial is years away as well.

[ganulv]

Exactly. My belief is that the convening authority is responsible for most of the delay and the delay is for political, not legal reasons.

Is that justice?
isn’t the only option. In the real world sometimes the only choice one has is between bad and less bad and at times justice is not the less bad. I don’t know enough about the Haditha situation to know whether that is what Wuterich’s ultimate conviction amounted to but I could see how that might have been the case and I am not unsympathetic if so. Others will differ, but I personally would argue that allowing some degree of discretion is a good thing. Of course, that does open up the possibility that said discretion might be abused. There’s always a dialectic.

[jmm99]

Do a search here at SWC on Haditha to return posts - just now, 175 posts. See Defend Our Marines (http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm) for huge documentation. Polarbear1605 and I have written enough on Haditha, so one short comment.

BLUF (only my own): the principal recent reason for delay (and when the Wuterich C-M was set for trial) were pi$$ing matches (hissy fits) among trial counsel and defense counsel, joined and added to by the military judge, joined and added to by the appellate judges - the latter won, as they always do. The hearings and trials involving other Marines were wrapped up in 2007-2008.

BTW: I'm not arguing anybody's position here, except my own conclusion (above), based on having looked at all of Wuterich's appellate decisions (and related materials) as they were going down. I didn't see any huge geopolitics or CA manipulation as to the final trial date. Clearly, the case was a political football (including military politics), especially at the beginning. At present, anybody can state whatever they want - informed or not. I don't give a f**k; what's over, is over.

Regards

Mike

Latin ? My, my. ;)

[Culpeper]

It works... :D

I have one just like it. Got it at an air museum near the Grand Canyon.

[carl]

Here is a NYT article trying to explain why things, so far, haven't boiled over in Afghanistan in the wake of the killings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/world/asia/disconnect-clear-in-us-bafflement-over-2-afghan-responses.html?pagewanted=2&ref=world

The article says it is a combination of religion trumping all, a quick and well spoken apology, fast payment of blood money, the fact that it wasn't part of a military operation and related to that, what seems to be the realization by the Afghans that this was a criminal act by an individual for which there is at least a chance of the death penalty being imposed. Very astute analysis.

[jmm99]

A valid point has been made about slowdowns in the criminal justice system. One is the time from crime to trial. The other is time from trial to final appeal. The two problems are quite different.

Here is an example from 1970 - Son Thang (16 killed in three hootches). The shootings took place on 19 Feb 1970 in the early evening. The initial forensic investigation (by an intel sensor patrol with an S-2 1st Lt. and a corpsman HN1 with camaras, etc.) began by chance in the late morning of 20 Feb.

The Article 32 hearings (on 5 cases) took 9 days, concluding on 23 March 1970, with the 5 Article 32 reports submitted four weeks later in April.

The first CM (and most comparable to this case in factual issues) was that of Pvt. Michael Schwarz, opening Monday, 15 Jun 1970 and closing Sunday, 21 Jun 1970 - members' verdict and sentence was guilty as charged and specified - 16 premeditated murders with a life sentence for each. The CA had declined to seek the death penalty.

The point (for crime to trial) is that it can be done; but it won't be done unless citizens join in pressure groups to require enactment and enforcement of Speedy Trial Acts. Bitching about lawyers and judges won't cut it.

The time from trial to final appeal problem is exemplified by the Ronald Gray case - a 1988 death sentence still unexecuted in 2012. That problem will not be solved easily, but would require a remake of the trial courts and appellate courts. Solutions can be easily presented - which are simple enough to lay out. Much larger amounts of political clout would have to be mustered to enact those solutions.

Regards

Mike

PS Carl: NYT article is very good. In my unscholarly explanation to me, the green book is the "accident" (appearance); its "substance" is God (because the Word of God is inseparable from God and is co-existent and eternal). Cf. RC doctrine of the consecrated Host: the bread is the "accident" (appearance); the "substance" is God.

I'm using Thomist-based systematic theological terms because of my ignorance of Islamic terms. An educated Muslim would provide an explanation with different terms. But, I believe it gets down to this: to a Muslim, desecration of the Koran is an actual, physical insult to God. To an RC, desecration of the Host is an actual, physical insult to God. God cannot be injured, but He can be insulted.

[M-A Lagrange]

Bonjour Mike,

Did not want to upset you when I said I'm a little p#$$@d off by the fact that there was video surveillance.
I believe my question is fully focused on how is that it could happen? The existence of video surveillance, even if they were of no use at the moment of the incident, demonstrate that it is not taking place in some remote unaccessible lost village.
Most of crimes I am reading about take place in areas where there is no one to witness, no technology to record the criminal acts...

So my interrogation, and you did provide tracks to answer it, was rather could this be avoided? But it will be to a court to pride the final answer to that.

Amicalement

Marc-Andre

[Eden]

Here is a NYT article trying to explain why things, so far, haven't boiled over in Afghanistan in the wake of the killings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/world/asia/disconnect-clear-in-us-bafflement-over-2-afghan-responses.html?pagewanted=2&ref=world

The article says it is a combination of religion trumping all, a quick and well spoken apology, fast payment of blood money, the fact that it wasn't part of a military operation and related to that, what seems to be the realization by the Afghans that this was a criminal act by an individual for which there is at least a chance of the death penalty being imposed. Very astute analysis.

I think there is also the Afghan equivalent of NIMBY. The murder of a few villagers is unremarkable, and for most Afghans those who died were "not in my village, not in my clan, not in my valley, not in my tribe". There is no emotional connection and therefore no outrage. Desecration of the Qu'ran, on the other hand, attacks one of the few things that give most Afghans some meaning in their life. They must react to that act of desecration in order to preserve their concept of self-worth.

[jmm99]

S.Sgt X's lawyer stateside is John Henry Browne (Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_Browne)), who has been talking to the press:

Seattle Times: Lawyer: Accused soldier was reluctant to deploy to Afghanistan (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017762328_browne16m.html?prmid=4939) (15 Mar 2012, Mike Carter and Hal Bernton)

NYT: Accused G.I. ‘Snapped’ Under Strain, Official Says (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/16/world/asia/suspect-in-afghan-attack-snapped-us-official-says.html?_r=2&hp) (15 Mar 2012, ERIC SCHMITT and WILLIAM YARDLEY).

This sentence from him is definitely a classic:


"The government is going to want to blame this on an individual rather than blame it on the war," he said.

Well, duh, Mr Lawyer. That's the way it works when the government prosecutes someone.

Lawfirm Overview (http://www.jhblawyer.com/) and Personal Bio (http://www.jhblawyer.com/attorneys/).

Over 250 criminal cases to verdict is serious experience.

To give you an idea of the floor for experience (and other important things), the National Board of Trial Advocacy (a Division of the National Board of Legal Specialty Certification) was the first American Bar Association accredited attorney board certifying agency in the world. Founded in 1977, NBTA offers board certification for Trial Lawyers (http://www.nblsc.us/certification_standards_civil/), Criminal Lawyers (http://www.nblsc.us/certification_standards_criminal/), Family Lawyers (http://www.nblsc.us/certification_standards_family/), Social Security Disability Lawyers (http://www.nblsc.us/certification_standards_social/).

The certification requirements for the four catagories are at the hyperlinks above.

You all out there who are looking for a lawyer might keep in mind that fewer than 4% of all practicing lawyers are certified by an ABA accredited or state sponsored certification board - and fewer still by NBTA. It's no guarantee, but it's a screen. NBTA Lawyer Finder (http://www.nblsc.us/find_board_certified_lawyers/).

I was certified as a Trial Lawyer - for whatever that's worth. You get a little pin, which I never wore but still have.

http://www.nblsc.us/site/content/images/img1.jpg

Regards

Mike

[tequila]

I think there is also the Afghan equivalent of NIMBY. The murder of a few villagers is unremarkable, and for most Afghans those who died were "not in my village, not in my clan, not in my valley, not in my tribe". There is no emotional connection and therefore no outrage. Desecration of the Qu'ran, on the other hand, attacks one of the few things that give most Afghans some meaning in their life. They must react to that act of desecration in order to preserve their concept of self-worth.

I think this is a very good analysis, with the qualification of course that if every Afghan thought that they absolutely had to react to the Quran burnings to preserve their self worth, there would be a lot more dead Americans right now that there have been.

[scott_i]

Is this 9/11 related? without knowing the background of the soldier in question but it seems he's been in 11 years(joining at the time or close to 9/11)Did this happen because how that may have affected him?Is this delayed "revenge" for that? The hard part for me why so many children?Adults yes ,Adults can be threats if he had shot only Adults I could almost" jam with that" but children, surely the general consensus is children are not threating?Why so many especially since he's a father ,does he have a child related tragedy in his past perhaps 9/11 related? Of course he might just be a complete and utter fruitcake.:confused:

[Kevin23]

The identity of this guy has been leaked according to CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/16/world/asia/afghanistan-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[jmm99]

Worth reading is Bob Scales' OpEd in the Washington Post, Too many wars, too few U.S. soldiers (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-cost-of-us-soldiers-fighting-battles-endlessly/2012/03/13/gIQAlouKAS_story.html) (13 Mar 2012), keeping in mind his own qualification:


My sense is that their collective, intimate exposure to the horrors of close combat was far more debilitating than what we experienced.

This of course in no way justifies what happened in Kandahar.

Asserting a lousy war, asserting a lousy branch of service, asserting lousy National Command Authorities - none of those are valid defenses to homicide; and none of them are likely to influence the members of a GCM.

His cup runneth over, however, is simply a fact as both MG (ret.) Scales and Lord Moran (and a plethora of others) point out.

Sometimes, the overflowing cup becomes obvious in time to prevent harm (Ricks (http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/03/15/an_officer_with_a_world_of_troubles) and Stars & Stripes (http://www.stripes.com/news/us/army-officer-charged-with-hiring-hit-man-to-kill-wife-boss-1.171503)).

Other times, no overflowing cup exists; but the picture of a truly evil person emerges - albeit with some symptoms of mental illness (Stars & Stripes (http://ap.stripes.com/dynamic/stories/U/US_HOMELESS_HOMICIDES?SITE=DCSAS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) and Orange County Register (http://www.ocregister.com/news/-344597--.html), source based on grand jury transcript).

The stories linked above (threatened serial killings and actual serial killings) broke this week !

Scott: Welcome to SWC. S.Sgt. Bales' service record (and life history) will be dissected. Perhaps, some of your questions will be answered.

Regards

Mike

[carl]

Is this 9/11 related? without knowing the background of the soldier in question but it seems he's been in 11 years(joining at the time or close to 9/11)Did this happen because how that may have affected him?Is this delayed "revenge" for that? The hard part for me why so many children?Adults yes ,Adults can be threats if he had shot only Adults I could almost" jam with that" but children, surely the general consensus is children are not threating?Why so many especially since he's a father ,does he have a child related tragedy in his past perhaps 9/11 related? Of course he might just be a complete and utter fruitcake.:confused:

Scott_i: It doesn't matter why. It murdered, mass murdered. There is no jamming with that no matter the age. It murdered people who could not defend themselves, over and over. Then when it was done, the thing ran back to mommy so it could be protected from the wrath of those close to its victims.

Barring any genuine "heard voices" mental illness or a brain tumor or something like that, the thing deserves nothing but contempt. It isn't a human any more.

[Dayuhan]

The question in my mind is whether there were any warning signs in the picture that might/should have been noticed and acted upon before this happened. Not saying there had to have been, just wondering if there were.

"How could this happen" isn't really the question. Put 100k people under intense pressure for enough time, the laws of probability say sooner or later somebody snaps, no matter how well selected the group is. That makes it all the more important for people to keep watch for any indication that something's not right. Not meant to excuse or justify in any way, just saying that it's a possibility that has to be accepted and looked out for when people are placed in these positions.

[Culpeper]

I'm not going to buy too many deployments. These volunteers get to come home for periods before being redeployed. In the case of this soldier he reenlisted knowing full well he would be deployed throughout his enlistment. Thousands upon thousands have done it without murdering women and children. PTSD is BS as well. I have an uncle that wet the bed for a year after The Bulge but he moved on with his life. I understand the horrors of war but PTSD has lost its value because too many soldiers use it as a form of entitlement. It is an abused diagnosis no different than affirmative action, which doesn't work as originally planned. This guy's record shows he was a a warrior and a leader. Then he made a stupid mistake. I consider him a self-centered SOB that murdered and caused irreversible damage on too many levels. Just sayin'.

[jmm99]

From Free Republic, Afghanistan massacre suspect named as Sgt Robert Bales (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2860095/posts).

I'm posting the entirety of the posts by the 31-year old CPT posting as Future Snake Eater. If he is who he says he is (a photo of Bales and him is posted by him !), he will undoubtedly end up as a character witness called by the defense. He is not a res gestae witness of the events in Astan. The value of character witnesses is subject to some argument. The Chicago Jury Study of long ago proved that character witnesses are more sentence determinative than outcome determinative; although, in any event, character witnesses are better than no defense witnesses. The posts below are not quite as dramatic as 1st Lt. Ollie North's character testimony for Herrod in his 1970 Son Thang GCM, which found Herrod not guilty of 16 charged murders. The members of that panel thought well of North, but did not feel that his testimony swayed them.


All,
I served with Bales for three years as his Platoon Leader. He is an absolutely outstanding Soldier, and what has transpired here is so out of character, I don't even know where to start. Please keep his wife and two young kids in your thoughts and prayers. He needs help. Hopefully he'll get it.
1 posted on Friday, March 16, 2012 6:54:03 PM by Future Snake Eater


To: darkwing104 [I sure hope the Army does everything to protect his family]
To my knowledge they are. Part of the delay in releasing his name was getting his family relocated to a secure area so as to protect them from possible repercussions from ROP types or even would-be liberal “do-gooders” (you know, teach us baby-killers a lesson, right?).
5 posted on Friday, March 16, 2012 7:03:05 PM by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)


To: All
RE: Bales' three Iraq deployments--
They were all with the 3d Stryker Brigade Combat Team. That's the Army's first ever Stryker Brigade. He went with them on their first deployment to Mosul in Northern Iraq. That one BDE relieved the entire 101st Airborne Division. Not only that, but Strykers had never been used in combat, so they had to figure that all out on the fly as well.

I got to the company right as they came back from Iraq. I can tell you for certain, Bales stood out immediately as a go-to guy. He was an E-4 (Specialist) at the time but quickly got promoted to Sergeant and took over my 1st Squad, Alpha Team. He is VERY smart, very intense, and was just everything you could want in a Team Leader. He knew when to be relaxed, and he knew when to be hard. He could joke around with guys during down-time, then be 100% business on a mission.

He saved my Stryker during one particular engagement. We had been in Mosul for months (this was his second deployment, my first). When you're in an area for that long, you can easily let your guard down when you NEVER take contact. Bales, however, was always on his game. We were checking out an area in a fairly tight alleyway, and he pulled security directly to the rear of the vehicle from his hatch. I was talking to my commander over the radio when I heard Bales yell "RPG!" and then immediately open fire. By the time I had even dropped into my hatch, he had shot the RPG shooter, causing the RPG to fly high and miss my vehicle. They caught the guy later that day getting treated for a GSW in an Iraqi hospital.

That second deployment was hell. It was Jul 2006-Sept 2007, 15 months, during the height of the insanity in that country. We got bounced around all over the country after we left Mosul. Constant stress, always waiting to be blown up or ambushed--AQI, Iraqi Army, Iraqi Police, who knew? In our last three months, we were in a neighborhood called Dora. Just in the first week we had six Strykers destroyed and over 40 people wounded. Bales was rock-solid the entire time.

Bales was frequently the lead guy in the door whenever we conducted a raid (we did about 50 of them). He never complained, he wanted to be there for his guys. A tremendous NCO.

I honestly don't care what comes out of this, b/c I know who he is. I just hope that you all will keep this in mind when you see the inevitable character assassination on TV news.
10 posted on Friday, March 16, 2012 7:14:37 PM by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)


My favorite pic of Bales. My Stryker vehicle commander had a feeling we were going to get hit with an IED on that particular patrol. Bales and I both bet him $0.50 we'd get through just fine. When we reached the next FOB without any issue, my VC tore a $1 bill in half and gave us each one. This was our celebratory photo.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/430754_3340843715301_1094916883_33237008_730404769 _n.jpg

23 posted on Friday, March 16, 2012 7:36:29 PM by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)


To: killermedic
Too many clowns who’ve “deployed” but never even seen a combat patrol, let alone combat, think they can moralize via long distance. I’ve seen it before (in my Career Course class). The constant mental strain of waiting to get hit, knowing that it could come at any time, knowing that you’ll likely never even see direct enemy contact since they know better than to engage you like that...it takes a major toll after a few months.

I don’t like to play the “I was there, you weren’t” card, but it’s really something you just can’t know unless you experience it. He did it three times and was well under way for a fourth. We had guys killed and limbs blown off in our deployment. We had guys up and quit on the spot b/c they couldn’t take the stress. We saw the charred corpses of other Soldiers, dead kids, the looks of sheer hatred from the populace we were supposedly there to help.

He took every bit of it. Everyone has their breaking point.
41 posted on Friday, March 16, 2012 7:54:14 PM by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)


To: LittleSpotBlog [Interesting...the NBC nightly news just showed photos of Bales, and he looks nothing like the Bales in this pic.]

I just looked it up on the NBC World News site. That’s definitely him.
47 posted on Friday, March 16, 2012 8:00:06 PM by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)


To: PapaBear3625 [You think it’s a good idea to put a pic of him on a public forum? Unless his pic is already plastered throughout the media?]

It is. I purposely withheld any/all info I had about him until the press did their thing. Now, it’s up to us, his comrades-in-arms, to make sure the word gets out that this man is NOT a psychopath, that if he did indeed do this, then he needs help, NOT a prison cell or a death sentence.
60 posted on Friday, March 16, 2012 8:09:48 PM by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)


To: jesseam [PTSD is a horrible thing. My last combat exposure was five years ago and I still drop whenever a sudden noise occurs; God help the Sargeant. OIF vet]

Thankfully it only took me a few months to shake the “jumps” though I was quite a piece of work during my R&R leave!

Stay safe, brother.
132 posted on Friday, March 16, 2012 10:12:24 PM by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)


To: Toespi
Yeah, that’s him.
137 posted on Friday, March 16, 2012 10:27:39 PM by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)

To: MinuteGal
Bales on the right, I’m on the left.
138 posted on Friday, March 16, 2012 10:29:43 PM by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)

There will be much, much more to this case - evidence favorable for the prosecution; evidence favorable for the defense.

Regards

Mike

[Stan]

Hey Mike,
Thanks for the excellent post. As always, very thorough !

I am more than certain he did a ton of good soldiering and we'll continue to find events suggesting he still is and just needs help.

Unless he produces a handgun under each and every child's pillow from that evening, I can't think of any reason to line them up and do head shots.

Even if he wasn't a father of two, the entire event is inexcusable and inexplicable. If I was one of his offspring, I'd be real worried about his return home :wry:

[jmm99]

AP is running After days of secrecy, US suspect in Afghan killings ID'd, a father of 2 with arrest record (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/apArticle/id/D9TI073G1/) and Neighbors say Afghan attack suspect was family man (http://www.gazettetimes.com/news/national/neighbors-say-afghan-attack-suspect-was-family-man/article_9e13adaa-61f6-5bc9-b42d-1a14777bbf28.html).

The arrest charges were (quotes from each story):


But court records show Bales was arrested at a Tacoma, Wash., hotel in 2002 for investigation of assault on a woman he dated before he married his wife, his lawyer, John Henry Browne, confirmed. Bales pleaded not guilty, underwent 20 hours of anger management counseling and the case was dismissed, according to court records. A separate hit-and-run charge was dismissed in a nearby town's municipal court three years ago, according to records.


Bales completed 20 hours of anger-management counseling following a 2002 arrest at a Tacoma hotel for investigation of assault. Browne said the case involved a woman other than Bales' wife, whom he married in 2005.

Tacoma Municipal court administrator Yvonne Pettus provided a copy of the court docket, but said clerks could not immediately locate the case file, which is either in archives or destroyed. The docket shows that Bales pleaded not guilty, underwent the 20 hours of anger management treatment, and the case was dismissed.

Records also associated with Bales show that in 2009 he had a hit-and-run charge dismissed in municipal court in Sumner.

The neighbors had this to say (quotes from each story):


...Neighbors described him Friday as good-natured and warm, and recalled seeing him playing outside the family's modern split-level with his children, ages 3 and 4.
...
Neighbors, though, recalled a man who was stoic about his time at war and didn't let on much.

"He always had a good attitude about being in the service," said Kassie Holland, who lives next door. "He was never really angry about about it. When I heard him talk, he said ... `yeah, that's my job. That's what I do.' He never expressed a lot of emotion toward it."

Holland called Bales kind-hearted around the neighborhood. "I can't believe it was him," she said. "There were no signs. It's really sad. I don't want to believe that he did it."


Neighbors of a Washington state man accused of gunning down 16 Afghan women and children in a nighttime rampage describe him as a family man who was "just one of the guys."
...
"I just can't believe Bob's the guy who did this," said Paul Wohlberg, a next-door neighbor who said his family was friendly with the Bales family. "A good guy got put in the wrong place at the wrong time. ... I never thought something like this would happen to him."

Wohlberg described Bales as a "good guy _ just one of the guys."
...

Kassie Holland, who lives next door, said she would often see Bales playing with his two kids and the family together at the modern split-level home.

"My reaction is that I'm shocked," Holland said. "I can't believe it was him. There were no signs. It's really sad. I don't want to believe that he did it.

"He always had a good attitude about being in the service. He was never really angry about it," she said. "When I heard him talk, he said, it seemed like, `Yeah, that's my job. That's what I do.' He never expressed a lot of emotion toward it."
...

"I kind of sympathize for him, being gone, being sent over there four times," said Beau Britt, who lives across the street. "I can understand he's probably quite wracked mentally, so I just hope that things are justified in court. I hope it goes OK."
...
Alissa Cinkovich, 45, has lived in the neighborhood for seven years, and said it was scary that Bales had been living nearby.

"I would like to think he just went off his rocker because of the war," Cinkovich said.

Prior to Astan deployment, Bales was at the NTC:


Spc. Ryan Hallock
In this Aug. 23, 2011 Defense Video & Imagery Distribution System photo, Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, right, participates in an exercise at the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, Calif. Five days after an attack on Afghan villagers killed 16 civilians, a senior U.S. official identified the shooter in that attack as Bales. The man at left is unidentified. (AP Photo/DVIDS, Spc. Ryan Hallock)

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/gazettetimes.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/02/e02a29bd-50b5-526a-94c6-66549a05006c/4f6428f9290ae.image.jpg

I don't know which way this might cut.

Regards

Mike

[jmm99]

I expect the prosecution will first set up the three scenes with lots of demonstrative evidence. I'd expect that will be mostly a US show, unless some Afghanis were involved in the forensics and ballistics. I'd expect the video and sensor evidence to come in at this point. All of that should be fairly cold and methodical stuff.

Depending how trial counsel sequences it, photos of each deceased and forensics (autopsies, if any) on each one will come in. The prosecution should show absence of weapons, and absence of casings not associated with Bales' weapon; a prevention for some "I was shot at" defense. Some media articles have said that bodies were moved from the scenes. So, some gray areas may exist. However, we do not know this.

At some point, Afghanis will have to testify as to the photos of the dead bodies; and also as a PID on the shooter (or shooters, as some Afghanis still seem to be claiming). That testimony will probably be videolinked. There might be some problem in showing what the shooter did with each deceased if the bodies were moved. Then, Afghani witnesses would have to relate that story - which is fine, so long as they are not inconsistent and hyperbolic.

This area will be hot. E.g., how does defense counsel handle pictures of dead kids ripped apart with modern munitions, with brains and guts hanging out. The usual method (if defense counsel cannot keep them out) is to keep going over them gruesome detail by gruesome detail until the members of the court are desensitized to them.

Personally, I've never much liked the insanity defense - it frees violent people. So, as I've said here at SWC (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=88157&postcount=8), "guilty but mentally ill" should be allowed as an alternative jury finding. But, that requires statutory change as we've done in Michigan. That linked post is in a PTSD discussion thread, Post-combat stress as a defense (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?p=88157&highlight=mentally#post88157). BLUF: PTSD is not a defense, but it can be a mitigating factor.

There we even have Boondoggle and Polarbear1605 - including myself, a real group of Neanderthal knuckle-draggers. BTW: As I notice now, the Great White Bear had a chance to deny his foundling story (from the Arctic to Quantico), but didn't. :)

If you take a gander at your Manual for Courts-Martial, you'll see that "deminished capacity" reduces premeditated murder to unpremeditated murder, but no lower. That's OK with me if that where the facts lead me.

Of course, the death penalty requires premeditated murder with full capacity - so "snapping" is a problem for trial counsel.

We've still a long way to travel here.

Regards

Mike

[carl]

Random thoughts on this.

The future snake eater posts remind me of a closing argument a prosecutor used in a murder case I read about in the paper. There was no doubt about the defendant's guilt, but the complicating factor was he had escaped before being sent to the penitentiary. He was on the run for many years and during that time had led an exemplary, even admirable life. The defense case (as best as I can remember) was what you would have expected, "This is a fine man, already reformed and no threat to society, what good would it do to send him to jail?". The prosecution responded with "How many free murders do you get in your life?". The jury convicted. Future snake eater apparently thinks 16 is a good number.

Those posts also reminded me of the segment in Lonesome Dove when Gus and Call hung Jake Spoon for murder even though he was an old loyal comrade. Murder was murder. But fiction is fiction not real life.

Every little move and development in this case will be watched closely in Afghanistan. Most importantly they will be watched by the type of people in the ANSF who have been murdering ISAF people. I have no doubt that this case and the various developments will help motivate some of them to murder some of our guys. I wonder if the future snake eater and the thing he is defending will stop and think about that when those killings occur. No... they won't.

One of things I think I noticed over the years when killings similar to this happen is that the defendants are convicted but when the sentences are handed down they seem to be light. Form is complied with but substance is gotten around.

If this thing isn't convicted or only serves a short sentence, I wonder if it will have to be guarded by the police, sort of a perverse variation of the witness protection program, so it won't be in danger of being killed for revenge.

Anger management classes exist so weak willed judges can pretend to have sentenced when they don't have the moxie to look a violent person in the eye and tell them they are going to jail.

I knew people would rush to the defense of the thing. It has happened often before but it still throws a cloud over my soul. It really does. And ultimately, the legal defense and popular justification will rest on the carefully unstated but always implied argument that "After all, they were only Afghans."

So future snake eater plays the "I was there, you weren't card." to justify mass murder. What can you say? The clouds are going to get very thick.

Mike: Editorially, good use of the (don't stop, keep moving) device. I would have stopped but didn't.

[stanleywinthrop]

Carl, I agree with your thoughts on future snake eater. Reading his posts churn my stomach.

Frankly, as an Army Officer with (apparently) personal knowledge he should shut his mouth and await his chance to testify. (although he might be out for all I know).

[jmm99]

"(Don't stop. Keep moving!)" shows up after the young captain's "signature" after his first post (in #5 and all following):


1 posted on Friday, March 16, 2012 6:54:03 PM by Future Snake Eater

5 posted on Friday, March 16, 2012 7:03:05 PM by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)

I've no idea who put it there, what it's meant to convey, or its source. I wondered about that myself.

His "UserCP (http://www.freerepublic.com/~futuresnakeeater/)" doesn't explain it.

Regards

Mike

[Stan]

I've no idea who put it there, what it's meant to convey, or its source. I wondered about that myself.

Regards

Mike

Mike,
We used to use a similar sign off within armor and recovery in the late 70s (when you have a massive V12 with twin carbs, magnetos and turbos).

SBCTs (Stryker Brigade Combat Team)s often refer to their speed and agility the same way (rapid response, rapidly moving, etc.).

I hope that future snake eater does not mean he is referring to the game Metal Gear Solid. The snake eater is known for having killed a lot of people. Seems someone is really into games. Hope there's a way of discerning between fact and fiction with those geeks :rolleyes:

[JMA]

Random thoughts on this.

The future snake eater posts remind me of a closing argument a prosecutor used in a murder case I read about in the paper. There was no doubt about the defendant's guilt, but the complicating factor was he had escaped before being sent to the penitentiary. He was on the run for many years and during that time had led an exemplary, even admirable life. The defense case (as best as I can remember) was what you would have expected, "This is a fine man, already reformed and no threat to society, what good would it do to send him to jail?". The prosecution responded with "How many free murders do you get in your life?". The jury convicted. Future snake eater apparently thinks 16 is a good number.

I asked in another thread (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=132375&postcount=89)... "I mean does a sane person commit rape and murder? The death penalty should be obligatory in such cases."

The legal view and the medical view is yes.

It's just plain wrong IMHO.

To go out and shoot 16 people (including women and children) you have to be crazy.

...but then they say you can't sentence crazy people to death?

Another 'own goal'!

He was a good guy, went crazy, did crazy stuff ... now top him... and be quick about it!

[jmm99]

JMA (Untitled, #89 (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=132375&postcount=89)):


I mean does a sane person commit rape and murder? The death penalty should be obligatory in such cases.

JMM ("...does a sane person commit rape and murder?", #90 (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=132376&postcount=90)):


Yes.

JMA (Untitled, #92 (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=132378&postcount=92))


Don't agree

Regards

Mike

[JMA]

JMA (Untitled, #89 (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=132375&postcount=89)):

JMM ("...does a sane person commit rape and murder?", #90 (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=132376&postcount=90)):

JMA (Untitled, #92 (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=132378&postcount=92))

Regards

Mike

Charles Dickens had it correct when he wrote in 1838 in the book 'Oliver Twist':


"If the law supposes that," said Mr. Bumble, squeezing his hat emphatically in both hands, "the law is an ass - an idiot". Note: 'ass' in the British sense being a donkey.

[davidbfpo]

I wonder how Americans would respond if the circumstances in this incident were replicated in the USA?

An Afghan service man, a a trusted veteran on a training course, walks out of a military base, commits murders and then walks back inside the base to surrender. Incidentally I'm sure the laws in place would mean court proceedings in the USA. Now imagine if the Afghan-USA visiting forces agreement means the suspect is flown back to Kabul for any prosecution.

Someone here may know of incidents involving off-base serious criminality by US personnel who appeared before a local court. My memory only has the low-flying training flight in the Italian Alps where cable way wires were cut and a gondola fell, killing those aboard. The US pilots did not face Italian justice.

[tequila]

The only one I can think of is the 1995 gang rape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Okinawa_rape_incident) of a Japanese girl on Okinawa by four Marines.

In this case, widespread Japanese outrage apparently led to the Marines being handed over to Japanese courts for justice.


After the incident became known, public outrage erupted, especially over the U.S.-Japan Status of Forces Agreement, which gives the U.S. the right of extraterritoriality (exemption from jurisdiction of local law). While the crime was committed off of a U.S. military base, the U.S. initially took the men into custody, but later handed them over to Japanese law enforcement to be tried.

According to the Status of Forces Agreement, article xvii (5) (c): "The custody of an accused member of the United States armed forces or the civilian component over whom Japan is to exercise jurisdiction shall, if he is in the hands of the United States, remain with the United States until he is charged." The suspects were on base restriction until the Japanese officials charged them with the crime. The outrage over the attack caused the largest anti-American demonstrations in Okinawa since the treaty was signed in 1960; there was particular acrimony with regard to the African-American ethnicity of the assailants. As a consequence of the protests regarding jurisprudence, the U.S. made concessions and agreed to consider handing suspects over to the Japanese before an indictment if the severity of the alleged crime indicated it. This agreement was hashed out at an emergency meeting between U.S. President Bill Clinton and Japanese Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto. The people of Okinawa also placed a full-page ad in the New York Times decrying the rape and other aspects of the U.S. bases in Okinawa. In 1996, the United States and Japan signed a bilateral agreement to reduce the amount of land on Okinawa covered by U.S. bases by 21 percent—the U.S. military had previously occupied 19 percent of the island.

Gill pleaded guilty to the rape, and the other two men pleaded guilty to conspiracy.

Prosecutors had asked for the maximum sentences for the men, 10 years each. The judge—there were no juries in Japan at this point—gave Gill and Harp seven years; Ledet received six and a half years. Their families also paid "reparation money" to the family of the victim, a common practice in Japan.

The three men served prison terms in Japanese prisons and were released in 2003 and then given dishonorable discharges from the military. After release, Rodrico Harp decried prison conditions in Japan and said that the electronics assembly prison labor he was forced to do amounted to slave labor.[2]

[jmm99]

LINK (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=7510) and POST (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=93549&postcount=23):

http://media.cleveland.com/world_impact/photo/gis-with-donkey-afghanistan-061809jpg-02e7a1a6f81b846b_large.jpg

"Fighting donkey" (HT to OP)

Regards

Mike

[Ken White]

I wonder how Americans would respond if the circumstances in this incident were replicated in the USA?With 330M different response... :wry:

Ranging from shooting the miscreant outright to giving him money and a medal and a ticket home... :rolleyes:

In most nations where US Troops are stationed, there is a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) which delineates in excruciating detail who will try or get custody of whom for what. Tequila mentioned one where the accused was turned over to local jurisdiction, there have been others in Japan (and Okinawa) and in Korea. There have been more in all those Nations where the US retained custody for one reason or another. Much depends on how the accusation is couched and the potential penalty foreseen by the local US Judge Advocate.

Much also depends on the whims of the US Congress -- if they get fired up and go into the "protect US citizens..." mode, they can influence both the US Armed Forces and Foreign governments. Some times they do that, sometimes they do not.

In those nations where troops are serving but no SOFA exists, the US retains jurisdiction. Thus it did in Iraq for almost all our time there and IIRC, one of the sticking points in our continued presence there was a failure to arrive at a compromise for the SOFA. There is no SOFA with Afghanistan to my knowledge -- nor, I suspect is there likely to be one...

The ICJ of course, is based on the premise that signatory nations have the responsibility and right to conduct their own investigations and / or trials...

Most Nations do pretty much the same thing. IIRC, the accusations of Forces mistreatment of Iraqis in Basra resulted in trials in the UK as it appears will this one (LINK) (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8986006/Soldier-who-shot-dead-suspected-Taliban-bomber-facing-murder-charges.html). I seem to recall a Spaniard and some Danes who also went home for trials...

Power rules, rightly or wrongly...

Added: Oops. Omitted two links:

LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_forces_agreement).

LINK (http://www.stripes.com/news/u-s-soldier-confesses-during-trial-to-rape-of-south-korean-girl-1.158325).

[JMA]

Random thoughts on this.

The future snake eater posts remind me of a closing argument a prosecutor used in a murder case I read about in the paper. There was no doubt about the defendant's guilt, but the complicating factor was he had escaped before being sent to the penitentiary. He was on the run for many years and during that time had led an exemplary, even admirable life. The defense case (as best as I can remember) was what you would have expected, "This is a fine man, already reformed and no threat to society, what good would it do to send him to jail?". The prosecution responded with "How many free murders do you get in your life?". The jury convicted. Future snake eater apparently thinks 16 is a good number.

(shortened)

Looking at the comments in this case from an ex-Platoon Commander about his ex-Platoon Sergeant of some years I understand where he is coming from.

I had the same platoon sergeant on constant operations for more than two years. One only understands the bond that develops (where this relationship is successful) when one looks back over the years (in my case 35 odd years).

He was a good man, in fact an outstanding balanced soldier and I believe we got the platoon commander/platoon sergeant relationship just about right. We still speak on a regular basis.

All that said if some years after we operated together it turned out (hypothetically) that he had snapped and done something terrible I would have stood right by him in his time of need (even though I knew he was heading for the highjump.)

If I were still serving I would have to be more circumspect in what I (as a serving officer) said publicly but if out of the service I would not be so constrained.

My heart would bleed for him... and if he needed it I would give him the shirt off my back.

[KingJaja]

I am neither Afghan nor American so I don't really have the right to comment on this thread. However, I'll pass a few words across.

This doesn't play well with the World's 1.3 billion Muslims - especially those who have similar social and economic standing as the Afghan people.

On the one hand, many Americans attempt to humanise an individual who is responsible for the deaths of 16 civilians (children included). While on the other, they believe that the US has the right to act as judge, jury and executioner in dispensing swift justice (via drones) to "terrorist suspects".

This individual will have the benefit of a long drawn out process in the US legal system. Many Afghans killed by US forces did not.

At times like this, the US has too really take a close look at itself and ask itself some pretty hard questions. The USG has killed infinitely more people this decade than say, the Chinese government. And no matter the justification for the killings, those numbers don't look good.

To what end is this endless cycle of killing, photo-ops and huge expenditure on aid? Has it improved US standing in the World? No. Has it improved your strategic position? No. What has it done to the reputation of the US Military (outside of America)? It has diminished it.

The US really needs to learn how to do more with less.

[carl]

I am neither Afghan nor American so I don't really have the right to comment on this thread. However, I'll pass a few words across.

You have as much right to comment as anybody else and the words you have passed on are well considered.

[tankersteve]

Mike,
.....
I hope that future snake eater does not mean he is referring to the game Metal Gear Solid. The snake eater is known for having killed a lot of people. Seems someone is really into games. Hope there's a way of discerning between fact and fiction with those geeks :rolleyes:


I would guess (no personal knowledge of individual referenced) that as snake eater is a common euphemism for US Army Special Forces, perhaps he is an aspiring candidate, looking to join SF.

Tankersteve

[Stan]

I would guess (no personal knowledge of individual referenced) that as snake eater is a common euphemism for US Army Special Forces, perhaps he is an aspiring candidate, looking to join SF.

Tankersteve

Hey Steve,
I was being just a smiggin sarcastic having been in and around SOF since 79.

Considering his support for people that perform head shots on (unarmed) children, I would not even consider him an aspiring candidate in administration doing travel vouchers !

[KingJaja]

Is this actually true? If it is then I don't know what else the West can do in Afghanistan.

Public diplomacy isn't a job for the Military (or for 19 year privates).


In the wake of the recent setbacks in Afghanistan, American commanders are working overtime trying to instill sensitivity among U.S. troops toward their Afghan counterparts and their Islamic culture.
But many American servicemembers already wear their feelings on their sleeves -- sometimes literally -- choosing a powerful term to represent the way they believe they’re perceived by the Muslim world: “Infidel.”
There are infidel hats, infidel T-shirts and infidel uniform patches -- an entire genre of morale wear that emerged from the ashes of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
Now that a decade has passed, the movement is booming. Type “Infidel Strong” into Google and page after page of military gear sites pop up, peddling what has become an ersatz symbol of patriotism.
It started as a humorous tactic for poking fun at intolerant Islamists ignorant of American ideals.
Clayton Montgomery, owner of a well-known online vendor called Mil-Spec Monkey and designer of some infidel patches, said his most popular item has been his “Pork-Eating Crusader” patch, which includes a translation into Arabic.
“Everybody sort of hates occupying forces anyway, so it’s kind of embracing that,” he told Military.com “If you are going to hate us anyway, we might as well pretend to be the great white devil.”
Continued Montgomery: “Originally, when we made the patch, we thought it would be this small thing, the equivalent of an ‘I’m with stupid’ T-shirt. We didn’t think we would sell many, but the demand was there,” Montgomery said, describing how his company has sold about 10,000 of the patches.

http://www.military.com/news/article/troops-still-embrace-infidel-label.html?comp=1198882887570&rank=1

I think I have an advantage over most Americans, I grew up in a religiously divided country (Nigeria).

[Stan]

A bit late for sensitivity training :wry:

The American phenomenon with patches and Zippo lighters cannot be explained. I still wear my POW/MIA and 99% patches on my leather jacket. Oddly enough, few today have even the slightest clue what those two patches are all about.

This about sums up what most young Americans know about the things they buy and proudly (ignorantly) display :D

[jmm99]

KingJaja:

BLUF: Yes, it's true within the limits of my experience (focused on our "twenty-somethings" young men whom I've sent to Iraq and Astan and who have come back).

As you know I come from Middle America; in fact, from something of an isolate in Middle America itself. Locally, we have something of a military tradition, with our people having enlisted in all service branches for the last 150 years. The most visible local military unit is our National Guard Engineer-Combat Battalion; and, for my home town and environs, its Sapper Company. I've written about that in a number of posts.

The young man quoted below is from here and the Sapper Company. His dad is a Vietnam vet - U.S. Navy, in country, Danang; his older brother is a Marine with multiple tours, and another is also National Guard. The family lives nearby me (the father has been a friend for 35 years).

"Bodi" sustained multiple IED concussions in Astan. This take is from an NPR interview (http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=140335197) (made because of the documentary, Where Soldiers Come From (http://wheresoldierscomefrom.com/)):


SIMON: Bodi, let me turn to you for your part of the story. As we see in the film, you wind up doing some of the most dangerous work there for U.S. servicemen and women in Afghanistan, and that's you become drivers and gunners who were looking for roadside bombs. You ran into some IEDs...

BEAUDOIN: Yeah.

SIMON: ...and tell us what that's like.

BEAUDOIN: Well, getting blown up is you get so filled with adrenaline that, you know, at first you really don't you don't feel anything, you just get a that, oh, here we go mode, you know, that lifesaving mode. So it's like anticipating getting punched in the face the whole time driving out there. And I mean that's our job. All of us knew on every mission that at any time, any of us had the possibility of getting blown up. So I think we did pretty well. I mean we found, the majority of the IEDs we found. I think we only got blown up like I think it was under 10 times and we found like 60 or 70 IEDs.

You know, for me what hurt me the most are RPGs, which is a rocket propelled grenade, more than the IEDs that hurt. Those are more scary.


(SOUNDBITE OF MOVIE, WHERE SOLDIERS COME FROM)

UNIDENTIFIED SOLIDER #1: Holy (bleep)

UNIDENTIFIED SOLDIER #2: What?

UNIDENTIFIED SOLDIER #1: Whoa. RPGs. Look out. Look out.
...
SIMON: Bodi, at one point in the film you say, you're serving in Afghanistan taught you to hate people - and you list them.


(SOUNDBITE OF LAUGHTER)

SIMON: You list quite a few groups. And I wonder what is it like to see yourself saying that now.

BEAUDOIN: At the time I was blown up I think around seven or eight times and I wasn't able to go out anymore with the guys, which really, really upset me. I always thought this was, you know, I don't want them to go out with[out] me. I worry, I would just worry about them. So I was so mad at the time.


(SOUNDBITE OF MOVIE, WHERE SOLDIERS COME FROM)

BEAUDOIN: I've learned to hate the people of Afghanistan and the country of Afghanistan. That's true. I hate everybody here. I hate everything about it. I hate the way they smell, the way they look, the way they talk, the way they dress, the way they think. I don't like them. I'm a racist American now because of this war and that is a true statement.

I obviously don't feel that way anymore. I look back at that and I can understand why I said that. You know, I was so jaded because of how many times that I was, that I got blown up.

SIMON: Well, help us understand that, because it's the determination of the army doctors that you were in so many explosions there's some effect.

BEAUDOIN: Yeah. That is...


(SOUNDBITE OF LAUGHTER)

BEAUDOIN: ...kind of on me also. I never wanted to not stop going out even though I got blown up so many times, so I would kind of bend the truth. Tell them that, you know, I feel fine, I feel fine, let me keep going out. And they have what's called a TBI test which is traumatic brain injury test - and I kind of cheated and memorized it. And there's is saying that they ask you a few words and you have to repeat them. And the few words are elbow, apple, carpet, saddle, bubble. And I will always remember that saying. And I could have sat out way earlier on the explosions, but I didn't want to because I wanted to go out with my boys. I'd rather get me blown up than my buddies.

All of this is one of the factors that has caused my Worldview - which you all know.

Regards

Mike

[slapout9]

A bit late for sensitivity training :wry:

The American phenomenon with patches and Zippo lighters cannot be explained. I still wear my POW/MIA and 99% patches on my leather jacket. Oddly enough, few today have even the slightest clue what those two patches are all about.



Stan, not only don't they understand the patches but very few people even no what a Zippo lighter is:eek:

[ganulv]

As you know I come from Middle America; in fact, from something of an isolate in Middle America itself.
As someone who hails from an area within which the question “Are you Christian or Catholic?” is heard from time–to–time, I rarely overthink statements related to religion made by my fellow Americans.

[jmm99]

ganulv: Read and attempt to comprehend what is written; rather than Shoot, Ready, Aim.

Regards

Mike

[Stan]

All of this is one of the factors that has caused my Worldview - which you all know.

Regards

Mike

Remind me to tell you what happened when my 3rd X's parents saw my NRA life member lapel pin at dinner :D

First impressions are overrated ;)

It will take several beers... several !

[ganulv]

ganulv: Read and attempt to comprehend what is written; rather than Shoot, Ready, Aim.
I comprehend perfectly well that the post to which you replied was very much about religion. The discussion takes place as part of a thread until an administrator decides to knot it off.

[jmm99]

Here is my dad's Zippo:

1583

Sent in twice by him for new internals (the last time in 1974).

So, we remember the artifacts of wars; but more so, we must remember the wars themselves and the men who fought them.

Zippo was able to guarantee repair of the Zippo's internals. The men who return from wars do not have that nicety; and, have to make their own repairs over perhaps decades - at least, two decades for my dad.

In the meantime, they do not have to be basket cases - a condition reserved for some of their far less fortunate brothers. They can have very successful professional and personal lives (without harming anyone, including their families - as with my dad). The internal demons are well concealed to all but those living with them. Those demons can break loose (for no apparent, rational reason), resulting in attempted suicide or attempted murder - and going from attempt to actual is just a trigger squeeze away.

This isn't theoretical to me. It's simply a personal, experienced set of facts. That being said, you all are entitled to whatever opinions you want to express.

Just saying

Mike

[jmm99]

opine and pontificate all you want about religion and everything else under the Sun. But, don't quote me for subject matter which is not in the post.

Personally I think your comments belong in the junior fuzz stickery category; but, as you "rarely overthink statements related to religion made by my fellow Americans", I rarely overthink offhand statements made by you.

Regards

Mike

[ganulv]

opine and pontificate all you want about religion and everything else under the Sun. But, don't quote me for subject matter which is not in the post.

Personally I think your comments belong in the junior fuzz stickery category; but, as you "rarely overthink statements related to religion made by my fellow Americans", I rarely overthink offhand statements made by you.

Regards

Mike
Decorum, counselor! I sense we are at cross-purposes here. Let’s just drop it.

[Stan]

Mike,



So, we remember the artifacts of wars; but more so, we must remember the wars themselves and the men who fought them.

I don't think we are all that different when it comes to a soldier's view herein. I believe I stated so. With every male member of my family having served and a few with broken Zippos too, I certainly get where you are coming from.


Those demons can break loose (for no apparent, rational reason), resulting in attempted suicide or attempted murder - and going from attempt to actual is just a trigger squeeze away.


I've witnessed that event three times and even had the pleasure of packing one kid in a box for home. Not a good experience - not one I intend to endure again. Probably why I am having a hard time merely agreeing with what my gut tells me is wrong.



Just saying


kissanhännänveto ?

Regards, Stan

[jmm99]

Isn't love not saying you're sorry ? Hi, lover - big smacker ! :D;):D I couldn't resist that. Stan = rehellinen mies (in all three of its positive meanings: honest, straight, fair).

Our perspectives come from our culture and life experiences. The military and an NRA life membership pin (on my NRA-ILA pool cap, Bro) don't get a discouraging word in the places I frequent. The Detroit Lions and the Green Bay Packers are another story (a pretty much equal civil war). Most bars (if they are smart and want to stay intact) have both teams well represented on their walls.

Now, don't you start pulling on the tail of a kaunis kissa; pull the donkey's tail instead, and give him the chance to put you into orbit. I'm kidding, of course; but, "Kissanhannanveto" looks something like "he's pulling on the cat". :)

Mutta, of course, it means Tug of War - something a lot of us have with respect to this case and within ourselves.

There is no way to pretty up this mess.

I took my wife out for dinner tonite. She and the "girls" went down to Madison Thurs for the Wisconsin State Tournament (Bowling) and stayed at a rez (Lac du Flambeau) on the way back Saturday. They had a good time - A world that does not involve young men killing and being killed.

Regards

Mike

[Culpeper]

opine and pontificate all you want about religion and everything else under the Sun. But, don't quote me for subject matter which is not in the post.

Personally I think your comments belong in the junior fuzz stickery category; but, as you "rarely overthink statements related to religion made by my fellow Americans", I rarely overthink offhand statements made by you.

Regards

Mike

You seem to be very knowledgeable so I don't understand the informative posts and the defensive posts. It is not necessary to respond to every post no matter how petty you may find them. The readers can make that determination on their own, you know. Displaying basic ego defense mechanisms are considered unprofessional here as I learned myself a long time ago. Lets continue..

[jmm99]

Let's.

Regards

Mike

[Culpeper]

Many willing to cut Afghan shooting suspect slack


On the website of Iraq Veterans Against the War, organizer Aaron Hughes declared that Afghan war veterans "believe that this incident is not a case of one 'bad apple' but the effect of a continued U.S. military policy of drone strikes, night raids, and helicopter attacks where Afghan civilians pay the price." Those veterans, he wrote, "hope that the Kandahar massacre will be a turning point" in the war.

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20120318/D9TJ77TG0.html

[jmm99]

From AP, Army capt.: Afghan killing suspect has saved lives (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2012/03/17/army_capt_afghan_killing_suspect_has_saved_lives/) (by Gene Johnson, March 17, 2012):


SEATTLE—A former platoon leader for the soldier accused of killing 16 Afghan civilians says the allegations are "100 percent out of character" for the man, whom he described as a model soldier who saved other soldiers' lives.

Army Capt. Chris Alexander, 32, said Robert Bales worked as a stock trader before the Sept. 11 attacks motivated him to enlist in the Army.

"I've always admired him for that -- he had a good thing going, and he dropped it to serve his country," Alexander said Saturday in a phone interview.

Bales enlisted about two months after 9/11 and had served with the 3rd Stryker Brigade based at Joint Base Lewis-McChord since Sept 11, 2002.

He became a staff sergeant in April 2008, following his second deployment in Iraq. He went to Iraq one more time before his fourth deployment, to Afghanistan. ...Alexander was Bales' platoon leader during one of his Iraq missions. He described Bales as "one of the best guys I ever worked with."

"He always made sure his team was ready, that they were briefed on the mission, that the equipment was checked," Alexander said. "Anything he was given to do, you never had to worry about it getting done and done well."

Alexander said he and others who served with Bales are stunned by the allegations. ...

More in story, but substantially the same as the Free Republic posts.

Regards

Mike

[Stan]

Now, don't you start pulling on the tail of a kaunis kissa; pull the donkey's tail instead, and give him the chance to put you into orbit. I'm kidding, of course; but, "Kissanhannanveto" looks something like "he's pulling on the cat". :)

Mutta, of course, it means Tug of War - something a lot of us have with respect to this case and within ourselves.

Regards

Mike

Mike,
We often use colorful Finnish phrases when an Estonian one either doesn't exist, or, the Finnish one just sounds better.

In this case, kissanhännänveto roughly translates as: Arguing back and forth about something really not worth arguing over, but which people feel strongly about.

Meillä on sairas aasi :D

[J Wolfsberger]

Arguing back and forth about something really not worth arguing over, but which people feel strongly about.


Not that any of us would ever do that ... :o

[82redleg]

Many willing to cut Afghan shooting suspect slack



http://apnews.myway.com//article/20120318/D9TJ77TG0.html

These folks hold a world view that is increasingly common in our culture, one that is consistantly ready to absolve all individual responsibility and attempt to force it on society. See Burkett's "Stolen Valor" for another take on this, and see Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" for an allegory of fundamental flaws in this (lack of) morality.

[davidbfpo]

Amidst the reporting, some clearly inspired, I found a reference to what could become an issue - comparing the case of Aafia Siddiqui, who got 86yrs jail for attempting to shoot US soldiers in Afghanistan and what may happen to Staff. Sgt. Bale.

Wikipedia on her:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aafia_Siddiqui

[KingJaja]

Amidst the reporting, some clearly inspired, I found a reference to what could become an issue - comparing the case of Aafia Siddiqui, who got 86yrs jail for attempting to shoot US soldiers in Afghanistan and what may happen to Staff. Sgt. Bale.

Wikipedia on her:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aafia_Siddiqui

Great analogy. One of America's great problems is the inability to see the World through the eyes of others.

The wider point is that America in Afghanistan is dead. Dead and gone, it doesn't matter whether America pulls out tomorrow or in the next two years.

[Stan]

Jep, a strange twist and analogy.


... they stated that there was a lack of scientific and forensic evidence tying Siddiqui to the weapon she allegedly fired

Seems the same is being used to defend the SSG. I would assume they are referring to fingerprints or perhaps even gunshot/powder residue.

In a place where a soldier fires his weapon a gazillion times a day, the evidence of gunshot residue is a joke. One would assume his fingerprints are probably still on his weapon, but, I would hope he has had a bath in the last week. This sort of Sierra is weak and yet still stands up in a courts martial :D

[stanleywinthrop]

Jep, a strange twist and analogy.



Seems the same is being used to defend the SSG. I would assume they are referring to fingerprints or perhaps even gunshot/powder residue.

In a place where a soldier fires his weapon a gazillion times a day, the evidence of gunshot residue is a joke. One would assume his fingerprints are probably still on his weapon, but, I would hope he has had a bath in the last week. This sort of Sierra is weak and yet still stands up in a courts martial :D

Stan, this is what we call the "CSI effect" in the civilian criminal law world.

Jurors often have extremely high and unrealistic expections for forensic science after watching the CSI series. Usually a good prosecutor can keep the jury's eye on the ball and cut through the muck, but its never a guarantee.

Normally one would think a military panel would be somewhat more immune to this effect, mainly due to its higher education composition.

[Stan]

Hey Stan,
(I always wanted to say that without being accused of talking to myself ;) )


Stan, this is what we call the "CSI effect" in the civilian criminal law world.

Jurors often have extremely high and unrealistic expections for forensic science after watching the CSI series. Usually a good prosecutor can keep the jury's eye on the ball and cut through the muck, but its never a guarantee.

Normally one would think a military panel would be somewhat more immune to this effect, mainly due to its higher education composition.

If we even had half of the widgets they do on CSI (sigh).
We've managed to become part of the judicial process here when it comes to forensics and post blast. It has been a real PITA having arguments with lawyers and defense in a subject area we are considered to be subject matter experts. We are still trying to put away our version of a uni bomber seven years later, once and for all.

What could possibly be gained from going to the scene weeks later ? His defense lawyer is said to be going to Afghanistan soon (not that that's the healthiest idea). The dead are buried and the shell casings long gone at the black market for scrap metal.

Regards, Stan

[carl]

What could possibly be gained from going to the scene weeks later ? His defense lawyer is said to be going to Afghanistan soon (not that that's the healthiest idea). The dead are buried and the shell casings long gone at the black market for scrap metal.

Regards, Stan

He won't find anything which may be the point. I am guessing, but would that be to the advantage of the defense if defense council argued that when he went to the scene despite strenuous efforts yadda yadda yadda there was nothing to be found, therefore how much credence can you give to the prosecutions evidence. Also could he use dangerous conditions to advantage in order to suggest that conditions are intolerable and would stress the most reasonable person beyond endurance?

Cue U.P. Mike, stage right.

[jmm99]

No, no comments today.

Have to confess to drinking - a bit of this:

http://sororiteasisters.com/files/2011/03/untitled.jpg

However, if someone can point me to an online copy of the original NASD arbitration award, I'd be thankful to him or her. Despite looking for that document on and off yesterday and today, I couldn't find it.

Regards

Mike

[carl]

Mike:

This link leads to a PDF called a broker check report. Click on the blue letters that say Get Detailed Report.

http://brokercheck.finra.org/Individual/IndividualSummary.aspx?SearchGroup=Individual&FirmKey=-1&BrokerKey=2765462&IndvlBCCtgry=2&IndvlIACtgry=-1

[carl]

Bloomberg seems to covering this story well.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-20/bales-doesn-t-recall-details-of-alleged-attacks-lawyer-says-2-.html

In the above linked story the defense attorney mentions lack of eyewitnesses, lack of forensic evidence, putting the war on trail and brain injury. I will wait for Mike's opinion as to how that may or may not show what the defense line will be.

[davidbfpo]

I am intrigued at the accused's defence lawyer's declared intention to travel to Afghanistan, presumably to examine the scene and interview witnesses.

Who is going to protect him in Afghanistan, notably in the village?

Can't imagine any insurance company will relish providing high risk cover.

[Ken White]

Who is going to protect him in Afghanistan, notably in the village?The same Army that, after returning to the US, he will lambaste in Court and in the media... :wry:

[jmm99]

00-02283 (http://finraawardsonline.finra.org/viewdocument.aspx?DocNB=683)


Extract: Award NASD Dispute Resolution In the Matter of the Arbitration Between: Gary K. Liebschner, (Claimant) vs. Michael Patterson, Inc., Michael Patterson, Dain Rauscher Incorporated, Robert Bales, Quantum Capital Corporation, Thomas Dooley HI, Ernest Dahlen IH, and Adolphus Dubose Jr., (Respondents) Case Number: 00-02283 Hearing Site: Columbus, Ohio
REPRESENTATION OF PARTIES Claimant, Gary K. Liebschner, hereinafter referred to as "Claimant": Earle R. Frost
Size: 296286 bytes
Date of award: 04/16/2003

The 10-page Award will become evidence as soon as Bales' credibility is put at issue - e.g., if he takes the stand. Two findings seriously injure that credibility:


1. The Panel finds that Respondents Bales, MPI, and Patterson engaged in fraud, breach of fiduciary duty, churning, unauthorized trading, and unsuitable investments. [$637,000.00 as compensatory damages]
...
3. Bales, MPI, and Patterson are jointly and severally liable for and shall pay to Claimant the sum of $637,000.00 as punitive damages. Ohio law permits punitive damages to be awarded in tort and fraud claims when the conduct is willful or malicious. The Panel finds Bales' and Patterson's conduct in this matter to be fraudulent and malicious.

That doesn't mean that facts concerning the Gary K. Liebschner claim, but not stated in the award, will be admitted.

So, now, we have two items of character evidence: CPT Chris Alexander, who (unless something adverse surfaces on him) seems to truthfully present what he knew of Bales; and the Arbitration Award, presenting a different picture, and which is binding on Bales as a judgment.

As to Atty. Browne, I found this interesting (from Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_Browne)) (supporting footnotes in Wiki):


Browne gained nationwide attention as lead plaintiff in a lawsuit filed in 2007 by famous class action lawyer Steve Berman against Avvo, a law-related review site.[7] He was reportedly upset that the site had rated him "average" via a rating system that evaluates vertical disciplinary stature. [8][9] That suit was dismissed on pre-trial motion, on grounds that the ratings were expressions of opinion protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.[10]

I conclude that Atty. Browne is a sensitive man, who will pull the libel trigger if he feels offended; but that's definitely just an opinion. ;) I'm sure his travel and personal security will be negotiated with the DoD - that sort of thing was handled during the Vietnam War in multiple cases.

As to the "defenses" of trying the War and trying the Army, can you all see them flying with members of a court-martial ?

As to forensics, Afghani witnesses, etc., I covered that in this post (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=133655&postcount=75) - still a long way to travel, and my reasoning is unchanged.

Regards

Mike

------------------------
Carl:

Moving away from all this misery, Marcelaine Wininger Lewis (she says she's a "sky chick", which is true :); but she also is smart, a good writer and teacher - and tougher than nails when she needs to be) wrote Why is CMX where it is ? (http://www.vintageaircraft.org/featured/2005%20-%20Vol.%2033,%20No.%2002%20-%20Why%20Is%20CMX%20Where%20It%20Is_.pdf). You know that destination. :) The article (from Vintage Airplane) tells of Caesar Lucchesi and his son Leo Lucchesi, founders of Copper Country aviation, and grandfather and uncle of "Geno" (of Blue Goose and Northwest Airlines "fame" - actually a hell of a guy and my friend; as was Leo, with whom I shared many Blue Goose trips).

[carl]

Bloomberg reports in this article

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-20/bales-defrauded-ohio-couple-who-say-he-owes-them-1-3-million.html

that there is apparently another different complaint on file with the Commerce Dept. of the State of Ohio involving bonds.

[Stan]

Bloomberg reports in this article

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-20/bales-defrauded-ohio-couple-who-say-he-owes-them-1-3-million.html

that there is apparently another different complaint on file with the Commerce Dept. of the State of Ohio involving bonds.

Hey Carl,
Not my background, but rubbing all this dirt in his face is to convince people that he was capable of shooting children ? It would be too perfect to find some correlation between the two events.


By then, Bales was already in the Army, having enlisted in November 2001, less than two months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, according to an Army statement.

I don't get this at all. I had a soldier who ran from his financial responsibilities when he joined and the Army took the legal amounts from his pay before he knew what happened. Something to the tune of $150 a month for 3 years. What does joining the Army after 9/11 have to do with his legal responsibilities ? He didn't just disappear off the face of the earth ???

Just my confused opinion ;)

[carl]

Bloomberg is just digging and reporting what they find. I don't know if it is rubbing dirt in a face as much as reporting the history of actions.

One of the reasons it is interesting to me is as a counter to the people who believe a good person can just "snap" and suddenly do horrific things. People don't just snap. There is normally some kind of unsavory history. In this case, maybe two instances of major league fraud and a domestic violence incident. I would be very surprised if there wasn't more.

You can disappear pretty easy if people don't look for you very hard, and a lot don't. But in this case, who knows?

[slapout9]

Just follow the money!!!!




Clip on how to follow the money from "All The Presidents Men"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVNU5jkOwzU

[Dayuhan]

Bloomberg is just digging and reporting what they find. I don't know if it is rubbing dirt in a face as much as reporting the history of actions.

One of the reasons it is interesting to me is as a counter to the people who believe a good person can just "snap" and suddenly do horrific things. People don't just snap. There is normally some kind of unsavory history. In this case, maybe two instances of major league fraud and a domestic violence incident. I would be very surprised if there wasn't more.

You can disappear pretty easy if people don't look for you very hard, and a lot don't. But in this case, who knows?

The financial allegations need to be seen in the context of the time. By '98-2000 the stuff mentioned in the charges had become practically standard procedure in US brokerages... it was a quite deranged time in that industry. It wasn't all coming from the brokers, either: clients in those days were pushing for larger and larger returns and more aggressive strategies. You couldn't sell a conservative low-risk financial strategy in 98-99; brokers who tried went out of business... everybody wanted "the next Yahoo" strategies. When the balloon popped in 2000/2001 there were tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of similar cases, which might be one reason why this was never followed up. That doesn't excuse the actions, but I wouldn't look at them as something that was a major deviation from norm either. If everyone involved in shady financial dealings from '97-2000 was a murderer waiting to happen there'd be a whole heap of murders going on.

[jmm99]

Carl:


... the people who believe a good person can just "snap" and suddenly do horrific things. People don't just snap. There is normally some kind of unsavory history.

I wish it always worked that way. It doesn't. Extremely good people, with NO "unsavory history", before and after the "snap", can "snap" and be dangerous to themselves and to others. That's not going to be enlarged here, either publicly or via PM, but it is true.

---------------
The fraud and misdemeanor evidence:

Firstly has to meet basic standards of admissibility (certified documents in prior proceedings; e.g., the arbitration award; or, less likely, by witnesses with personal knowledge - see, fourth point).

Secondly, fraud and misdemeanor evidence cannot come in directly to prove Bales committed 17 murders - the pre-event civil and criminal charges are not similar enough to what is charged.

Thirdly, the fraud evidence and (less likely) the misdemeanor evidence could be admitted if Bales' credibility comes into issue - e.g., by testifying, or possibly to impreach what he says to a psychiatrist who then testifies.

Fourthly, credibility and impeachment thereof are collateral issues to the primary issue of guilt on the charges and specifications. Therefore, the military judge will have considerable discretion in admitting or rejecting evidence on these collateral points.

--------------------------------
Charge Sheet

From the National (about 45 minutes ago), Charges in Afghan Shooting Will Be Start of Long Legal Journey (http://www.nationaljournal.com/nationalsecurity/charges-in-afghan-shooting-will-be-start-of-long-legal-journey-20120322):


By Yochi J. Dreazen
Updated: March 22, 2012 | 8:06 p.m.
March 22, 2012 | 7:31 p.m.

The Army’s decision to formally charge Staff Sgt. Robert Bales with 17 counts of homicide for his alleged role in a mass shooting in southern Afghanistan will mark the start of a long legal process that is virtually certain to continue long after U.S. troops have withdrawn from the country.

Army prosecutors will charge Bales with the 17 counts of homicide on Friday, according to a U.S. official. The full charge sheet is virtually certain to also include an array of other charges, including attempted murder, assault, and dereliction of duty. Bales is the sole suspect in the crime; if convicted, he could face the death penalty.

The charges begin what is likely to be a long and complex trial. Military officials believe they have a strong case, pointing to surveillance videotape which they say shows Bales leaving the base shortly before the shootings and returning not long afterwards. Senior military officials say Bales turned himself in after returning to the base and surrendered his weapon. They believe, in the words of one military official, that he simply “snapped.” ... (much more in article)

Nothing to say about that until the Charge Sheet is filed.

A good comment by Neal Puckett (e.g., Haditha Marines) on his own webpage, Public Opinion on SSG Bales Alleged Offense Featured (http://www.nealpuckett.com/index.php/blog/item/147-public-opinion-on-ssg-bales-alleged-offense):


Military.com is reporting that many are willing to cut SSG Bales some slack for the alleged shooting of Afghani citizens based on the idea that a good Soldier simply snapped. What is wrong with this statement is the fact that military justice is based on criminal wrong doing of individual actions that destroy good order and discipline of a military team.

Individual military members are liable for their actions at all times under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The individual in the military is subject to extensive training with a unit, is under the command of senior non-commissioned and commissioned officers, and while in country, has had rules of engagement drilled into their daily operations.

No one individual in the military stands alone. SSG Bales entire unit was there that evening to support him and in effect, failed in their duties as unit members to observe the moment in which he may have “snapped.” While diagnosed psychological pressures and command environment are factors military defense attorneys use to explain why a military member snaps, it is not necessarily a reason to not face the fact that the evidence may point directly to SSG Bales as the shooter.

Military justice will provide the evidence in a military court-martial and the military members will determine the guilt and subsequent sentence based on those facts. The next step in the process is beginning the military justice process with a charge sheet and the appointment of an Article 32 investigating officer to determine whether sufficient evidence exists to warrant a trial by court-martial.

Just saying

Regards

Mike

[carl]

Dayuhan:

I disagree. The arbitration found fraud, unauthorized trading, churning and breach of fiduciary duty. None of those can be considered within the bounds of aggressive investing. They are all pretty well within the bounds of lying, cheating and stealing regardless of investment climate of the time. The arbitrator imposed whopping punitive damages, so I believe it probably was beyond the bounds.

It is part of a pattern. Does it mean that any grifter is a mass murderer? No, but it does mean that mass murder doesn't normally come from nowhere.

A record like this would have resulted in a failed background check, definitively failed, in the PD I was familiar with.

[carl]

I wish it always worked that way. It doesn't. Extremely good people, with NO "unsavory history", before and after the "snap", can "snap" and be dangerous to themselves and to others. That's not going to be enlarged here, either publicly or via PM, but it is true.

I said almost always. I said that because I knew never to say never. But I still believe it to be mostly true. Good people don't just snap. There almost always is a history, especially in acts of criminal violence directed against others. There sure as heck is one in this case.


The fraud and misdemeanor evidence:

...is interesting to me because it shows a pre-existing disposition to criminality. Whether that has any bearing on the prosecution's case or not you know far better than I.

[jmm99]

My BLUF: I'd say that a person with proven past credibility problems (fraud, malicious manipulation, etc.; an "unsavory history") would be more likely to (1) fake an insanity defense; and (2) con people into believing that he is a good guy. That guy would have a pre-disposition to be a good liar; and, yes, a pre-disposition to criminality of the fraud type. That is why evidence of past criminal acts of a similar nature may be allowed into evidence to show a pattern - e.g., a pattern of con artistry. But, most con artists are not murderers.

What could be shaping up here may simply be an evil person (with or without a mental illness component less than insanity), who is in effect a serial killer. That type of person may show few (if any) signs of becoming a serial killer, except in hindsight.

I mentioned that type of person in this post, Measures of Men (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=133645&postcount=68), although no one commented on him. The grand jury transcript is the source for the stories in Stars & Stripes, Transcript: Suspect killed to become 'real Marine' (http://ap.stripes.com/dynamic/stories/U/US_HOMELESS_HOMICIDES?SITE=DCSAS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT); and the Orange County Register, Serial killings testimony: Suspect needed to kill (http://www.ocregister.com/news/-344597--.html). Yup, presumption of innocence, and all that; but it tells why the defendant was indicted.

From the Register:


By LARRY WELBORN / THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER

The Iraq war veteran indicted in the murders of four homeless men and two others during a three-month killing spree told an Anaheim detective after his arrest in January that he joined the Marine Corps to be become a killer, according to court documents obtained by The Orange County Register.

But Itzcoatl "Izzy" Ocampo, 23, said he was disappointed when he did not see any combat during a six-month tour of duty in Iraq when he "became a truck driver instead of a killer," according to a transcript of a secret hearing of the Orange County grand jury.
...
(long review of the grand jury transcript in article)
...
Wyatt also told the grand jury that he noticed that as Ocampo was describing each of the murders during the interrogation, his demeanor would change.

"He seemed to get excited when he was talking about the actual kill," Wyatt testified. "So, I asked him if he was aroused by the act of killing."

Ocampo at first questioned the word arousal, according to the transcript, but then added, "my balls felt like they were going to explode, and I knew that I had the killer gene."

The Bales' case, so far, has nothing like this.

Regards

Mike

[slapout9]

I said almost always. I said that because I knew never to say never. But I still believe it to be mostly true. Good people don't just snap. There almost always is a history, especially in acts of criminal violence directed against others. There sure as heck is one in this case.



...is interesting to me because it shows a pre-existing disposition to criminality. Whether that has any bearing on the prosecution's case or not you know far better than I.

Thats exactly right, if they keep digging this guy will have a long history of screwing people and he likes it. He planned this whole thing.

[carl]

My BLUF: I'd say that a person with proven past credibility problems (fraud, malicious manipulation, etc.; an "unsavory history") would be more likely to (1) fake an insanity defense; and (2) con people into believing that he is a good guy. That guy would have a pre-disposition to be a good liar; and, yes, a pre-disposition to criminality of the fraud type. That is why evidence of past criminal acts of a similar nature may be allowed into evidence to show a pattern - e.g., a pattern of con artistry. But, most con artists are not murderers.

I agree with all you say but will add something. Most con artists are not murderers but many serial killers are good con men, ie. charming and convincing liars. In this case there may be a similar pattern.


What could be shaping up here may simply be an evil person (with or without a mental illness component less than insanity), who is in effect a serial killer. That type of person may show few (if any) signs of becoming a serial killer, except in hindsight.

This is goes with what Slap says above, that this thing was planned out. I think that there may have been a shrewed (sic) appreciation of the political situation and the difficulties of prosecution vis-a-vis normal American standards of forensics and witness', and all that was figured into it the goal of course being to get away with it. The killer who killed all the college girls in many states used to do that, snatch the girl in one jurisdiction, kill her in another and dispose of her body in a third; all to make it hard for the cops.


The Bales' case, so far, has nothing like this.

It never will. It is the difference between a young inexperienced hood and one who is older, more experienced and knows not to say anything at all to the cops.

[jmm99]

is the question - still to resolved, but the focus is narrowing.

Agreed:


Most con artists are not murderers but many serial killers are good con men, ie. charming and convincing liars.

I've no first hand knowledge of people convicted of serial or mass murders (one on ones with them); but only second hand knowledge from people who had first hand knowledge. The most recent was local in the 1990s (People vs Goodreau, who is serving life for serial murders; I went to Michigan Tech with a father of one of the victims, continued friendship with him, etc.). The most well-known (and similar mass homicide incident) was Richard Speck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Speck#Chicago.2C_April.E2.80.93June_1966), who had a local connection to people who talked to me then:


Speck found work immediately after obtaining a letter of authority, joining the 33-member crew of Inland Steel's Clarence B. Randall, an L6-S-B1 class bulk ore lake freighter, on April 30. Speck's first voyage on the Clarence B. Randall was brief—he was stricken with appendicitis on May 3—and was evacuated by U.S. Coast Guard helicopter to St. Joseph's Hospital in Hancock, Michigan on the Keweenaw Peninsula of Michigan's Upper Peninsula where he had an emergency appendectomy.

After he was discharged from the hospital, Speck returned to stay with his sister Martha and her family in Chicago to recuperate. On May 20 he rejoined the crew of the Clarence B. Randall on which he served until June 14 when he got drunk and quarreled with one of the boat's officers and was put ashore on June 15. For the following week, Speck stayed at the St. Elmo, an East Side, Chicago flophouse at E. 99th St. & S. Ewing Ave. Speck then traveled by train to Houghton, Michigan, staying at the Douglas House, to visit Judy Laakaniemi, a 28-year-old nurse's aide going through a divorce, whom he had befriended at St. Joseph's Hospital. On June 27, after Judy gave him $80 to help him until he found work, Speck left to again stay with his sister Martha and her family in Chicago for the next two weeks.

Both Goodreau and Speck fit the con artist profile. I've also had one on ones with two people who went on to bigger things and are now serving life (though for neither serial murders nor mass murders) and who fit the con artist profile.

Thus, I've limited direct experience with serial and mass murderers. Michigan does not have the death penalty which I've already discussed.

A good lead to follow:


... what Slap says above, that this thing was planned out.

But, this is also true:


It [confession by Bales] never will. It is the difference between a young inexperienced hood and one who is older, more experienced and knows not to say anything at all to the cops.

But, the video has the man (on return) saying: "I did it." An announcement that he completed a "plan" known to others ?

Regards

Mike

[stanleywinthrop]

I am intrigued at the accused's defence lawyer's declared intention to travel to Afghanistan, presumably to examine the scene and interview witnesses.

Who is going to protect him in Afghanistan, notably in the village?

Can't imagine any insurance company will relish providing high risk cover.

Steven Green's lawyers asked to go to Iraq but the federal court denied their request amongst other things citing safety.

http://www.kywd.uscourts.gov/3-06-00230/pdf/entry186MainDocument.pdf

[jmm99]

Robert Bales (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/03/23/bales.charge.pdf).

-------------------------------
Added links and Subsequent Decisions in Green case.

Opinion & Order in Green case re: travel to Iraq - Doc 214 in District Court (http://www.kywd.uscourts.gov/3-06-00230/pdf/entry214.pdf) and Docket Sheet (http://www.kywd.uscourts.gov/3-06-00230/DocketSheet.htm).

United States v. Green (http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/11a0221p-06.pdf) (6th Circuit Opinion; August 16, 2011) (major MEJA decision), p.23:


Green’s claim that the district court lacked jurisdiction over him fails because his discharge from the Army was valid. Furthermore, Green’s constitutional claims fail because MEJA does not offend the separation-of-powers principle or the nondelegation doctrine, equal protection, or due process. Thus, we AFFIRM the decision of the district court.

SCOTUS, Certiorari denied (http://www.supremecourt.gov/Circuits/Order/Circ6_09-61086123.pdf) (9 Jan 2012) [letter notice by William K. Suter, Clerk of SCOTUS - MG US Army (ret.) - Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Suter):


To distinguish him from former Supreme Court Associate Justice David Souter, Suter is often referred to within the Supreme Court by the nickname "The General" or as "General Suter". General Suter is a prolific speaker about the Court. A popular figure in the national bar, he has received numerous honors for his frequent outreach efforts, including honorary degrees. A college basketball player, General Suter has been known throughout his career for his love of the sport. At the Court, he was known for playing basketball with law clerks on the "highest court in the land".

Regards

Mike

[carl]

But, the video has the man (on return) saying: "I did it." An announcement that he completed a "plan" known to others ?

If that were true, this nightmare just got 5 shades darker. Lord, I hope you are wrong.

I have zero first hand experience with serial killers Mike. All I know is what I read and what others have told me. I should have made that clear.

[tequila]

Afghan shootings done in 2 trips from base (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us/afghan-shootings-done-in-2-trips-from-base-officials-find.html?hp)


WASHINGTON — Military investigators suspect that the American soldier charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder and other charges in connection with the attacks against Afghan civilians earlier this month committed the shootings during two separate operations, a United States official said Saturday.

The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the continuing investigation, said that the investigators believe that the soldier, Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, left the Afghanistan base and carried out the first set of killings, returned to the combat outpost, and then, sometime later that evening, went out and attacked a second village. It was on his return from the second foray that Sergeant Bales was detained, the official said.

The Associated Press first reported the military’s findings about the two separate operations.

The official said this account emerged from a wide range of interviews that Army investigators have conducted over the last several days as they try to piece together what happened that night and why.

The scenario, he said, seems to support the United States government’s assertion that the killings were carried out by one person. But the official said there was no detailed chronology or an explanation, thus far, of how Bales was able to go back and forth and only be detected the second time he returned to the base.

[carl]

3 more ISAF people shot dead by ANSF or local police.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/world/asia/unborn-afghan-child-said-to-be-17th-victim-of-killing-spree.html?ref=world

And then 10 suicide vests found around the Afghan Defence Ministry, some in guard shacks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/world/asia/afghan-soldiers-arrested-in-suspected-attack-against-government.html?ref=world

Unknown whether these events are in partially in response to the mass murder or part of the continuing pattern of ANSF people murdering ISAF people.

What can you say?

[Presley Cannady]

Question. Did SSG Bales do what he's accused of doing?

[carl]

Question. Did SSG Bales do what he's accused of doing?

The Army investigated and concluded yes. My personal opinion is the Army is correct.

The defense attorney doesn't really dispute that. He brings things up regarding mental state and the poor quality of evidence etc.

What are you driving at?

[carl]

Here is an article with the latest from the defense lawyer.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/robert-bales-lawyer-smell-human-bodies_n_1387719.html

It is interesting because it shows what the defense may be when the case comes to trial. The lawyer says "There's no `CSI' information." and speaks of various things that call into question mental capacity. The killer is continuing with the story that there is no memory of the events except "the smell of gunfire and of human bodies but not much more."

Also another incident that involved violent behavior toward others has been reported. This one in 2008.

[KingJaja]

This shouldn't be seen as another typical American over lawyered trial. The US occupation of Afghanistan and the US Army are also on trial with Bates.

If the US can offer swift justice to its enemies in Afghanistan, then expect the Afghans to require the same from the Americans. If justice is seen to be delayed, then accusations of double standards will be made, and they will stick.

America, please leave Afghanistan. You are not serving any useful purpose there anymore.

[carl]

KingJaja:

You know exactly what will happen and so does the rest of the world. This thing will drag on for years and years, every tiny procedural stratagem will be utilized, there will be dueling psychiatrists, dueling physicians, dueling pharmacologists and there will probably even be small demonstrations lauding the killer as a "hero". Lord only knows when it will end or how it will turn out. But it will not be swift.

[Culpeper]

3 more ISAF people shot dead by ANSF or local police.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/world/asia/unborn-afghan-child-said-to-be-17th-victim-of-killing-spree.html?ref=world

And then 10 suicide vests found around the Afghan Defence Ministry, some in guard shacks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/world/asia/afghan-soldiers-arrested-in-suspected-attack-against-government.html?ref=world

Unknown whether these events are in partially in response to the mass murder or part of the continuing pattern of ANSF people murdering ISAF people.

What can you say?

It's out of control.

[davidbfpo]

I have tried to follow this story, but this article struck me as new. Apologies if not.

Psychologists have blamed a surge in random acts of violence among US soldiers on the heavy use of prescribed medicines by the American military. More than 110,000 Army personnel were given antidepressants, narcotics, sedatives, antipsychotics and anti-anxiety drugs while on duty last year, according to new figures by the US Army Surgeon General. The figures indicate an eightfold increase in martial drug use since 2005, with nearly 8 per cent of servicemen and women on sedatives and 6 per cent on antidepressants.

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9193850/Prescribed-drugs-to-blame-over-spate-of-violence-among-US-soldiers.html

[KingJaja]

Great, but the Afghans who killed their American counterparts could have been "under similar pressure".

You guys don't fully understand how this sounds to the ears of the rest of the World.

[carl]

Great, but the Afghans who killed their American counterparts could have been "under similar pressure".

You guys don't fully understand how this sounds to the ears of the rest of the World.

It sounds like making excuses for people who do evil things. It sounds like that because that is what it is. KingJaja, most of the guys here know exactly what it sounds like to the rest of the world.

I read that George Orwell story you recommended. It was quite good.

[JMA]

It sounds like making excuses for people who do evil things. It sounds like that because that is what it is. KingJaja, most of the guys here know exactly what it sounds like to the rest of the world.

OK, so you understand but do you care?

[carl]

OK, so you understand but do you care?

Of course. But you are going somewhere with that question. Where?

[JMA]

Of course. But you are going somewhere with that question. Where?

As per other discussions on this theme the prevailing opinion from USians seemed to have been that as the US was not going to change (or could not change) the rest of the world should just learn to live with it.

You agree?

[carl]

The glacial pace of US legal procedures probably won't change. I wish it would but no matter what we want, the case will drag on and on, though there are many in the US who wish it wouldn't.

The world should not get used to this. No need to refrain from bringing this up in every official and unofficial forum available, often. Politeness doesn't go that far.

Things aren't completely hopeless though. Nobody who defended Calley 40 and more years ago will admit that they did today. And when this case is finally resolved, I am guessing the nature of the facts will be such that nobody will defend this thing for its actions. Somebody else mentioned this but the defenders aren't really defending the thing, their apparent defense is only a political weapon to urge withdrawal from Afghanistan. As the case proceeds the two things, the actions of the killer and the political position will become harder and harder to reconcile so they won't try.

So in the end, that this was evil will be accepted by all. But the world just doesn't have to learn to live with it US slowness, though I don't know what exactly can be done about it. I don't know what the USians can do about it in the short term and many of us are as frustrated as the world.

[carl]

The prisoner Bales pled out and apparently avoided the death penalty.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-bales-guilty-plea-20130605,0,856566.story

I figured this would go on for years and am glad I was wrong.

Judging from a very brief excerpt of his testimony as quoted in the article (which may not be enough to judge anything by), this guy will make a good subject for the FBI agents who study psychopaths.

[jcustis]

What an absolute turd. Screw that guy.

[gute]

I'm with you - absolute turd. He should have been smoked.