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marct
01-26-2007, 06:58 PM
I'm starting this thread for, roughly, the same reasons that Steve started his in the History (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=2034) section. In many ways, this forum is a "grab bag" for both the social sciences (minus History) and religion.

In many discussions on this council, we have talked back and forth about the importance of cultural knowledge in small wars. As an Anthropologist, that is, I suppose, my stock in trade :wry:.

But "cultural knowledge", in order for it to be useful, must be more than just a cheat sheet of rules and taboos - it must be an understanding of how a group of people "construct their reality". This means that "religion", in this context, is not a dry examination of texts but, rather, a "lived and living reality".

That is one of the reasons why this forum exists as "Social Science and Religion" (the other reason is probably parsimony, but we don't want too many forums, do we?). Still and all, "religion", as many Anthropologists define it, is "living and lived", even if many people wouldn't consider this definition as "true".
"Religion is a system of symbols which acts to establish powerful, pervasive and long-lasting moods and motivations in men by formulating conceptions of a general order of existence and clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic."
Clifford Geertz, 1973 The Interpretation of Cultures
One of the reasons I like this definition is that it allows us to look at symbol systems that are not generally considered to be "religions", e.g. ideologies, "totemic systems (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=1616)", regimental traditions, etc. Another reason I like this definition is that it totally changes ones understanding of Mao's work on Guerrilla War from a "secular" war to a "sacred" war.

I'll freely admit that this is one of my own "pet rocks", to use Steve's phrase. I look at many of the small wars that have been fought in the past and, most especially, the GWOT as quintessentially ideological ("religious" in the Geertzian sense) wars - they are a fight over how (and who) "reality" will be constructed.

Marc

Stan
01-26-2007, 09:02 PM
That is one of the reasons why this forum exists as "Social Science and Religion" (the other reason is probably parsimony, but we don't want too many forums, do we?). Still and all, "religion", as many Anthropologists define it, is "living and lived", even if many people wouldn't consider this definition as "true".

Hello Marc !
I like this (yes, that would be a compliment) !
I am only now gaining an appreciation for your free anthro lessons ;)

Truth be told, back when Rob started his thread and You, Tom and I jumped in with all "fours", I neglected to check your profile and simply jumped in hammering the need for Anthro classes! I would later feel like a real Delta Hotel (but I did get over it :D ).

Social Science and especially religion was something I ran away from once in the Armed Forces and away from what I, a 17 year old, felt was no longer relevant.

In reality, it was not only relevant, but significant. I used it, learned from it and made it out of Africa with it. Much like Tom's descriptions once he left, my nightmares would also come, very unwelcomed.

Have a Nice Weekend !
Stan

Tom Odom
01-26-2007, 09:12 PM
Marc

One question that pops into my mind is the issue of patterns of expansion of religious, political, commercial, and other theories, ideologies, and systems. the linkages are obviously multi-layered and therefore complex. We talk much about the Judeo-Christian system of values and that alone makes large assumptions about unified views on social mores, structures, and languages.

Islam is inherently self-limiting in some regards because the Koran is only the Koran when it is in classical Arabic. On the other hand as the religion spreads, the new adherents have to learn enough Arabic to at least understand basic tenets.

Christianity especially Catholicism when services had to be delivered in Latin shared some of this. But Christianity allows translation and we would not have a "King James" version of the Bible if that had not been the case.

What brought all this to my mind was a comment made by a reviewer on an article I sent to SWJ for another of my authors here. The author began the article quoting the April NIE which said:

“We assess that the global jihadist movement is decentralized, lacks a coherent global strategy, and is becoming more diffuse,"

The reviewer pointed out the fallacy in that statement: there is a strategy and it is global.

That it is not "coherent" to the authors of the NIE is a statement of their analytical failure.

You know that I see that strategy and method as a global insurgeny based on ideology of a particular distorted sect within the Muslim world. What got me thinking about patterns of expansion is the use of the internet. The article in question centers on that issue and I will not reveal more because it is in the SWJ inbox. But in the interim, Islam has spread through conquest--especially in its early years and through the peak of the Ottoman empire. Parallel to that expansion by the sword, Islam spread via trade and local contacts.

Periodically through the centuries, local Muslim leaders--like the Mahdi in Sudan--emerged and used the sword once again. Since then (19th Century) the spread has been largely through trade and establishment of local mosques to serve the Muslims in that trade.

What seems to me especially relevant in all of this is the emergence of the internet and its applications for global prosletyzing. It has become in many ways the electronic model of the spread of Christianity via disciples early on and the creation of a Church with a priesthood.

Rambling I know but thinking as I type. Any comments?

Tom

marct
01-26-2007, 09:53 PM
Hi Tom,


One question that pops into my mind is the issue of patterns of expansion of religious, political, commercial, and other theories, ideologies, and systems. the linkages are obviously multi-layered and therefore complex. We talk much about the Judeo-Christian system of values and that alone makes large assumptions about unified views on social mores, structures, and languages.

I've always found the spread of ideas fascinating, myself. The more I study them, the more convinced I am that some of what Richard Dawkins is talking about with "mind viruses" is probably correct. I think he analogy plays well into some of the trends we have sen n the New Religious Movements and in the return to "fundamentalisms" in the mainstream religions and political ideologies.

You are quite right about the assumption of unity within a belief system and the concomitant social-structural assumptions that are, supposedly, contained in it. That's also one of the big problems Islam has had in many of the immigrant communities - an inability to separate the "cultural" from the "religious". I'm pretty sure I know why that has happened (a rather strange process of symbolic accretion tied in with fairly standard patterns of immigrant enculturation and a consequent mis-mapping of perceptual topologies), but very few symbol systems contain quick ways to adapt.

Sorry, I know that sounds like a lecture:o.


Islam is inherently self-limiting in some regards because the Koran is only the Koran when it is in classical Arabic. On the other hand as the religion spreads, the new adherents have to learn enough Arabic to at least understand basic tenets.

Christianity especially Catholicism when services had to be delivered in Latin shared some of this. But Christianity allows translation and we would not have a "King James" version of the Bible if that had not been the case.

I think that this is a crucial strength of Islam and, to a much lesser degree, of pre-Vatican II Catholicism. It really enforces a common language for communication, together with all of the perceptual biases inherent in that language. The reason Islam is stronger is that their scriptures are written in the "common language" whereas one of the Christian scriptures are written in Latin.


What brought all this to my mind was a comment made by a reviewer on an article I sent to SWJ for another of my authors here....

The reviewer pointed out the fallacy in that statement: there is a strategy and it is global.

That it is not "coherent" to the authors of the NIE is a statement of their analytical failure.

I've got to agree with you there. Still, remember that phrase I used earlier "perceptual topologies"? I suspect that that is what stymied the NIE analysis: I fully suspect that they cannot conceive of an "insurgency" being a broad social movement without having a centralized leadership function and a "coherent" (i.e. comprehensible to them) strategy :wry: (hey, I really like the new "wry grin" smilie!!!).


You know that I see that strategy and method as a global insurgeny based on ideology of a particular distorted sect within the Muslim world. What got me thinking about patterns of expansion is the use of the internet. the article in question centers on that issue and I will not reveal more because it is in the SWJ inbox. But in the interim, Islam has spread through conquest--especially in its early years and through the peak of the Ottoman empire. Parallel to that expansion by the sword, Islam spread via trade and local contacts.
....
What seems to me especially relevant in all of this is the emergence of the internet and its applications for global prosletyzing. It has become in many ways the electronic model of the spread of Christianity via disciples early on and the creation of a Church with a priesthood.

My first real contact with the Internet was back in 1986 when I got involved with a distributed BBS system called PODS (Pagan Occult Distribution System) as part of my research. Utterly fascinating how it worked and how "communities" would be built without any face to face contact. That experience certainly conditioned most of my future research and thinking :).

Once the WWW showed up back in '93 (okay, December '92 for the purists), I spent a lot of time tracking down how it was being used by religious groups. I think your analogy to the early Church is, actually, quite sound, especially if we look at the epistolary tradition (e.g. St. Paul). The main difference I see is that there has been a vast increase in the "communicative density". In effect, if I can now reach 100 million people, I am quite likely to find several hundred, or thousand, who believe whatever I do. There's a parallel in law enforcement circles with the rise of child-porn trading rings and the spread of the 'net (excellent MA Thesis on that here (http://web.archive.org/web/20010216074417/www.trytel.com/%7Eiferguso/)).

The spread of the Radical Safali version of Islam is, to my mind, a somewhat different case. Basically, I think w have a situation where a radical, ideological insurgent group, the Muslim Brotherhood, lucked out in finding a very rich ally, the Wahhabist movement in Saudi Arabia, and he two of them have orchestrated a very effective, and long reaching, IO campaign i both real space and cyberspace. We should get Terri to comment more on this, since she's the expert n the area.

The 'net has played into their hands in that it has given them access to a lot of Muslims who have been raised pretty much "secular". As such, they don't really have a well developed religious "immune system" to pretect hem from the "mind viruses" being spread by the MB. This may sound a little weird, but the same pattern has played out inside Christianity and Judaism in North America and Western Europe. Without that "immune system", they are definitely "at risk".

Marc

marct
01-26-2007, 10:02 PM
Hello Marc !
I like this (yes, that would be a compliment) !
I am only now gaining an appreciation for your free anthro lessons ;)

Free? Damn, don't tell my wife!


Truth be told, back when Rob started his thread and You, Tom and I jumped in with all "fours", I neglected to check your profile and simply jumped in hammering the need for Anthro classes! I would later feel like a real Delta Hotel (but I did get over it ).

LOLOL Hey, Stan, I feel like that all the time - and, yeah, I get over it :D.


Social Science and especially religion was something I ran away from once in the Armed Forces and away from what I, a 17 year old, felt was no longer relevant.

In reality, it was not only relevant, but significant. I used it, learned from it and made it out of Africa with it. Much like Tom's descriptions once he left, my nightmares would also come, very unwelcomed.

I guess it's always been one of my passions :wry:. What has always toasted my cookies is that both social science and religion tend to be taught so poorly! I've tried to remember that when I teach... to make it interesting and relevant to what's going on. I remember one class I had on the Anthropology of Religion, and I'm lecturing on about the great theorists and their models. Needless to say, my students decided that "meditation" (aka sleep") was a good response. So I thought, "What the heck" and asked them if any of them knew how to cast love spells. That perked them up! In the end, I spent 2 hours talking about it and sneaking in the theory.:D

Marc

Rob Thornton
01-27-2007, 05:34 AM
I needed a way to step outside "my" way of doing analysis - talking to Marc has helped me out allot. However, now it makes my head hurt since I can't just take the "well - its what I would have done if I were them" approach out of hand. Funny, the longer I stay here, the less I think I understand why some of this stuff happens (its why I responded to the thread ref. the memo from Mahdi leadership). Its hard to sort random decision from planned decision in many cases. Its difficult to make connections about one act to another act unless its either obvious (ex. everything happens at roughly the same time, on roughly the same types of targets, to achieve a roughly the same effects). We spent a day one tie trying to figure out if the guy the IA found stuffed in a rice bag was just an IED gone bad for the emplacer who was being taken back home, or he was somebody killed in manner that allowed him to be stuffed in a rice bag (there is no Iraqi CSI and once a guy is in a rice bag (maybe a 3 ft x 18 in bag), nobody really wants to dump him out to "examine" him).

Connecting one thing to another can lead to some bad assumptions. Assuming motivations are tied to your motivations can also be deadly. While I have not "figured it out", Marc's and the SWC members comments cause me to reconsider first assuptions and challenge them. I always liked Johnathan Hume, the Scottish philosopher who once remarked (paraphrased) that he had to drink beer while he played billiards because else he'd get to caught up in the physics of the blliard balls and get a headache. Currently I need a beer or two myself, but its still about 6 weeks out:D

Martin
01-27-2007, 01:52 PM
You are quite right about the assumption of unity within a belief system and the concomitant social-structural assumptions that are, supposedly, contained in it. That's also one of the big problems Islam has had in many of the immigrant communities - an inability to separate the "cultural" from the "religious". I'm pretty sure I know why that has happened (a rather strange process of symbolic accretion tied in with fairly standard patterns of immigrant enculturation and a consequent mis-mapping of perceptual topologies), but very few symbol systems contain quick ways to adapt.
I pretty much agree. (so far and if I understand you correctly :) )

Hey Marc, reading further in Tribesmen - you were right, it is quite alright. I was way too quick in closing it, it is interesting.

Martin - Wheel reinventor

marct
01-27-2007, 06:29 PM
Hi Rob,


I needed a way to step outside "my" way of doing analysis - talking to Marc has helped me out allot. However, now it makes my head hurt since I can't just take the "well - its what I would have done if I were them" approach out of hand. Funny, the longer I stay here, the less I think I understand why some of this stuff happens (its why I responded to the thread ref. the memo from Mahdi leadership). Its hard to sort random decision from planned decision in many cases.

You know, there's a type of "knowledge" called "tacit knowledge" (I think the termw as coined by Michael Polanyi) that is "sub-conscious". It's one of the ways that cultural anthropologists are trained to operate, adn it can drive you crazy :wry:. What you seem to be describing, Rob, is similar to what we go through about 3 months into fieldwork - a kind of "Nothing makes any sense!! I want to go HOME!! THEY"RE ALL CRAZY!!!" reaction.

"Understanding" is often based on unconscious assumptions about reality. Remember when you were telling us about your CO and his belief in the djinn? That's part of it. After a while, parts of "their" worldview - how they conceove and perceive reality - filters into you brain where it runs head on into "our" worldview. And sometimes, the two don't match. Even "random" decisions are conditioned by your worldview, rather than being truly "random" in the mathematical sense.


[Its difficult to make connections about one act to another act unless its either obvious (ex. everything happens at roughly the same time, on roughly the same types of targets, to achieve a roughly the same effects). We spent a day one tie trying to figure out if the guy the IA found stuffed in a rice bag was just an IED gone bad for the emplacer who was being taken back home, or he was somebody killed in manner that allowed him to be stuffed in a rice bag (there is no Iraqi CSI and once a guy is in a rice bag (maybe a 3 ft x 18 in bag), nobody really wants to dump him out to "examine" him).

There's a limit to the inductive method, and that limit is your comprehension of the reality of the perpetrator. It's one of the reasons I've always found criminal profiling so interesting. Operationally, the important thing would be to identify the body and return him to his family with "honour". Sometimes you just have to say "I don't grok this" and leave it at that <sigh>.


Connecting one thing to another can lead to some bad assumptions. Assuming motivations are tied to your motivations can also be deadly. While I have not "figured it out", Marc's and the SWC members comments cause me to reconsider first assuptions and challenge them. I always liked Johnathan Hume, the Scottish philosopher who once remarked (paraphrased) that he had to drink beer while he played billiards because else he'd get to caught up in the physics of the blliard balls and get a headache. Currently I need a beer or two myself, but its still about 6 weeks out:D

I've always thought well of beer, myself :D. Maybe the US colleges will institute Heinlein's course in "Doubt" - I think it would prove very usefull.

Marc

marct
01-27-2007, 06:34 PM
Hey Martin,

Good to hear from you again.


I pretty much agree. (so far and if I understand you correctly :) )

Hey Marc, reading further in Tribesmen - you were right, it is quite alright. I was way too quick in closing it, it is interesting.

Sahlins is pretty cool; I've always liked his stuff. If you want a more detailed one, that may be useful in some future COIN ops (i.e. Sudan / Darfur) try E.E. Evans-Prtichard's The NUer. Good book, on the whole, although I always prefered his Witchcraft, Oracles and Magic among the Azande.

Marc

Martin
01-28-2007, 10:08 AM
Hey Martin,

Good to hear from you again.

Sahlins is pretty cool; I've always liked his stuff. If you want a more detailed one, that may be useful in some future COIN ops (i.e. Sudan / Darfur) try E.E. Evans-Prtichard's The NUer. Good book, on the whole, although I always prefered his Witchcraft, Oracles and Magic among the Azande.

Marc

Marc, good to hear you too.

Before overseas armed social studies, I better actually accomplish something. ;)
I might have a look at it if there is time inbetween studies, but I am in a pretty intense course and I still have some programming work to do (plus PT, etc).

Have you read Atkinson's Social Order and the General Theory of Strategy (http://www.amazon.com/Social-order-general-theory-strategy/dp/0710009070/sr=8-1/qid=1169978313/ref=sr_1_1/104-1558493-8556712?ie=UTF8&s=books)? Interesting subject and fits in with my current attempts at understanding the bonds between governance, politics, economics, military and the moral/social order, but the only praise I have heard of the book is its listing in Boyd's reference list. Would be interested to hear your opinion. On that account the Federalist Papers is very interesting beyond understanding history and the constitution.

marct
01-28-2007, 02:57 PM
Hi Martin,


Have you read Atkinson's Social Order and the General Theory of Strategy (http://www.amazon.com/Social-order-general-theory-strategy/dp/0710009070/sr=8-1/qid=1169978313/ref=sr_1_1/104-1558493-8556712?ie=UTF8&s=books)? Interesting subject and fits in with my current attempts at understanding the bonds between governance, politics, economics, military and the moral/social order, but the only praise I have heard of the book is its listing in Boyd's reference list. Would be interested to hear your opinion. On that account the Federalist Papers is very interesting beyond understanding history and the constitution.


I haven't read it (Oh God! Another book on the "to read" pile!!!!). I read the Federalist papers quite some time ago. Maybe I'll go back and reread them after the "to read" pile drops a bit lower :D.

Marc

Martin
01-28-2007, 03:32 PM
I haven't read it (Oh God! Another book on the "to read" pile!!!!). I read the Federalist papers quite some time ago. Maybe I'll go back and reread them after the "to read" pile drops a bit lower :D.

Marc
Those old books are quite interesting in their ways, finished Common Sense a few weeks ago. I still prefer the stories from people with experience on the ground though, Contra Cross is up next along with Unfettered Mind.

How does your theory of symbolic warfare differ from PSYOPs and related? Is it a subset expansion?

M

marct
01-28-2007, 03:56 PM
Hi Martin,


How does your theory of symbolic warfare differ from PSYOPs and related? Is it a subset expansion?

It's still in the "visual stage" - I'm a visual thinker which means I think in pictures rather than words. It's still not clear as a picture, yet, although some of the elements are fairly clear.

I'd have to say that it is pretty far away from PSYOPs in general; it's closer to Dave Kilcullen's Framework (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/01/a-framework-for-thinking-about/) and the larger model in his Countering Global Insurgency (http://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/kilcullen.pdf), but with a chunk of Korzybski's General Semantics (http://www.amazon.com/Science-Sanity-Introduction-Non-Aristotelian-International/dp/0937298018/sr=1-2/qid=1169999736/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-0046598-2588730?ie=UTF8&s=books) and some stuff on perceptual topologies. I'm hoping to have a rough paper together on it in the next couple of months.

Marc

Martin
01-29-2007, 06:41 PM
Hi Marc,


Hi Martin,

It's still in the "visual stage" - I'm a visual thinker which means I think in pictures rather than words. It's still not clear as a picture, yet, although some of the elements are fairly clear.

I'd have to say that it is pretty far away from PSYOPs in general; it's closer to Dave Kilcullen's Framework (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/01/a-framework-for-thinking-about/) and the larger model in his Countering Global Insurgency (http://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/kilcullen.pdf), but with a chunk of Korzybski's General Semantics (http://www.amazon.com/Science-Sanity-Introduction-Non-Aristotelian-International/dp/0937298018/sr=1-2/qid=1169999736/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-0046598-2588730?ie=UTF8&s=books) and some stuff on perceptual topologies. I'm hoping to have a rough paper together on it in the next couple of months.

Marc
It will be interesting to read what you come up with. I have a feeling you are so well read that when you mention a few sources, you are actually stretching across many other fields and possibilities.

However, I have a hard time understanding how methodologies under the header Symbolic Warfare, operating primarily on the mind in individual and varying group contexts, can be so far away from psychological operations, or even if it is, may not still expand the category. That it can be operated in the environment defined by Kilcullen does not change its methodological category... or maybe I'm completely lost?
I'm just really curious, don't take it as discouragement. If you want to elaborate, please do. Otherwise I'll try to shut up for a while. :)

I like Kilcullen.

M

Beelzebubalicious
01-02-2010, 07:03 PM
I used to think to think I knew something about everything until I started communicating with Marc, but now I realize that I know nothing about everything...actually, I used to think I knew something about anthropology (I have a masters in applied anthro) until I started reading Marc's reply and that's even given the fact he's trying to make it simple!

Just a small point. I've been in situations (japan, Africa) where I feel so different and "outside" that all those differences stand out and seem obvious. Yet, it's the similarities that struck me. And in those countries for which I was more familiar and like the populace (Ukraine) I found I assumed similarity when it wasn't really there (or true) and had a harder time understanding (perhaps given my assumptions).

One last thing. I know many hard core anthropologists think Edward hall was either not rigorous or pure for their preference, but I have found that the way he breaks down culture easy(ier) to understand and that he explains culture in real, every day terms is helpful. I think some of his work has been misunderstood and misused (turned in to simplistic scales of high vs. Low context, etc), but when I first started learning about culture and anthro, I thought it was useful.

Rob Thornton
01-02-2010, 08:52 PM
what I really like about talking to Marc is it almost always leads me to consider things in new and interesting ways. The discussions we've had on epistemology have really been useful in helping me think - although they have occasionally sent me in search of more beer:D

Best, Rob

Beelzebubalicious
01-02-2010, 10:26 PM
e-pissed-emology?

Rob Thornton
01-03-2010, 02:13 AM
That is worth a big grin. Its a bit like reading the likes of David Hume - except you have to hear an obligatory Canadian "ehh" and you don't have to eat haggis:eek:

I was looking for a Hume quote - I think I remember one from the treatise on the senses about billiard balls and beer - but since I cannot find it this one is a pretty good one:

"If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, "Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number?" No. "Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence?" No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion."

Best, Rob

wm
01-03-2010, 03:56 AM
I was looking for a Hume quote - I think I remember one from the treatise on the senses about billiard balls and beer - but since I cannot find it this one is a pretty good one:

"If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, "Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number?" No. "Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence?" No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion."

Best, Rob
What are we to make then of Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion?

Rob Thornton
01-03-2010, 04:58 AM
Hi Wayne, Happy New Year -

If I recall my takeaway was that there is no adequate human measure of the divine - to say or infer otherwise would be deceptive. Of course I was reading allot of Rilke back then too;)

Best, Rob

wm
01-03-2010, 05:50 PM
I was reading allot of Rilke back then too;)

Best, Rob

That certainly explains a lot, Rob--Happy New Year and Decade

Beelzebubalicious
01-07-2010, 12:24 PM
When I see stories like this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8441813.stm)
I find it hard to understand from a cultural (or a relativist) point of view. Beyond the obvious reactions, I'm always intrigued by how pervasive the belief in spirits and the spirit world is in some countries, even in this "modern" world.

marct
01-07-2010, 01:07 PM
When I see stories like this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8441813.stm)
I find it hard to understand from a cultural (or a relativist) point of view. Beyond the obvious reactions, I'm always intrigued by how pervasive the belief in spirits and the spirit world is in some countries, even in this "modern" world.

Much as I hate to say it, I find it perfectly understandable. One of the things to remember is that "witch doctors", which is a really lousy translation, have traditionally focused on breaking spells and identifying who cast them originally. These people sound more like "sorcerers" that "witch doctors".

Having said that, let me also note that belief in various and sundry "spirit" entities, and the willingness to use rituals based on them, increases during times of social upheavals and social strain. Back in the late 1980's, by way of example, there was a sorcerer operating out of Montreal who charged his clients $2000 per ritual; usually related to economic gain / stability. Another, more "mainstream" example, shows up in the Christian "Prosperity Movement (http://www.craom.net/prosgospel.htm)".

BB, I'm not sure you would like what happened to your mind if you could get into the headspace to understand this sort of thing. Speaking from too much personal experience, it can have a very strange effect on your thinking :wry:!

Cheers,

Marc

Beelzebubalicious
01-07-2010, 04:43 PM
I know what you mean. Happens when I spend too much time with my kids. I lose my ability to make adult decisions. My wife suspects I'm really still a child, but the truth is that I have become compromised by their mindset (if you can call it that).

marct
01-07-2010, 04:46 PM
I know what you mean. Happens when I spend too much time with my kids. I lose my ability to make adult decisions. My wife suspects I'm really still a child, but the truth is that I have become compromised by their mindset (if you can call it that).

LOL - As a note, your original post got me going on a bit of a rant on the topic (http://marctyrrell.com/2010/01/07/real-cultural-relativism-isnt-warm-and-fuzzy/).

Cheers,

Marc

Beelzebubalicious
01-07-2010, 07:00 PM
Marc, I replied to you over in harmonium. We'll see if that stirs the pot a little! A little cross-fertilization is always good.

In relation to your statement above, I also note here the quote from the report:


The Ugandan government told us that human sacrifice is on the increase, and according to the head of the country's Anti-Human Sacrifice Taskforce the crime is directly linked to rising levels of development and prosperity, and an increasing belief that witchcraft can help people get rich quickly.

The assumption is that such extreme measures are taken in times of desperation, but this appears to contradict this assumption and imply that perhaps people are getting rich precisely b/c they have made these sacrifices and that's why the rate of human sacrifice is increasing.

marct
01-07-2010, 07:23 PM
Hi BB,


Marc, I replied to you over in harmonium. We'll see if that stirs the pot a little! A little cross-fertilization is always good.

True - I replied to your reply as well.....


The assumption is that such extreme measures are taken in times of desperation, but this appears to contradict this assumption and imply that perhaps people are getting rich precisely b/c they have made these sacrifices and that's why the rate of human sacrifice is increasing.

Personally, I think they are either misusing the term "witchcraft" in place of "sorcery" or they have missed the boat. Both can rise during times of social strain, and I suspect that both are on the rise in Uganda. Witchcraft, and witch doctors (finders, etc.) tend to rise when individuals perceive that they have suffered a relative misfortune, while sorcery tends to rise when people feel that they are not getting what they could / should out of current opportunities.

The assumption about the efficacy of the sacrifices is the key point to actually stopping them. Unfortunately, it is insanely easy (well, relatively speaking), to reconfigure a general belief in "magic", loosely construed, into the practice of blood magic in one form or another. What is much harder is stomping it out. By way of example, consider the Thugee cult in India during the 19th century...

Tom OC
01-08-2010, 04:19 AM
Marc, I don't think the practice of witchcraft/sorcery, in the context of ritual child sacrifice, has got anything to do with social stress or social strain at all. Infanticide, maybe, because certainly exogenous social shocks to the system create sociogenic forces which cause crime. But, the ritual practice of killing kids to appease spirits comes endogenously (from the other direction). The idea that when one is unhappy with their station in life, one should sacrifice a child in hopes of a better, wealthier future doesn't correlate with any known system stressors that I know of, except maybe demographic pressures. The belief system is a warped kind of theodicy where the thinking goes like this: if I make the ultimate sacrifice, I may be better off. There are indeed certain rituals with social structural links like this, but child sacrifice isn't one of them. I'm going to have to go with this just being a psychologically twisted kind of crime on this one.

marct
01-08-2010, 02:36 PM
Hi Tom,

Long time no chat! Glad to see you back here posting again.


Marc, I don't think the practice of witchcraft/sorcery, in the context of ritual child sacrifice, has got anything to do with social stress or social strain at all. Infanticide, maybe, because certainly exogenous social shocks to the system create sociogenic forces which cause crime. But, the ritual practice of killing kids to appease spirits comes endogenously (from the other direction).

Of course the impetus is endogenous, or at least the symbol system supporting such sacrifices is. Don't forget that a lot of social strain is also endogenous as well. There's a couple of points I want to raise here. First, that one article doesn't really give us much of a clue as to the symbolic structure of the sacrifice system they are using. From the little data in the article, it appears to be some form of classic "blood pact" sacrifice, but that could be an artifact of the churches being involved (consider, by way of example, a similar craze that "happened" in North America; cf The Satanism Scare (http://www.amazon.com/Satanism-Scare-Social-Institutions-Change/dp/0202303799/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262959924&sr=8-1) by Bromley, Best and Richardson). Outside of the lack of symbolic data, we don't know who the clients are, so motives can only be ascribed, which is also problematic.

What might, and I emphasize "might", be happening is a con job using a syncretism of local magic practices tied in with the "dark side" of Christianity (NB: "Satanism", symbolically, is an integral part of Christianity). That is one plausible explanation. Another plausible one would be something along the lines of a larger version of the Adolfo Constanzo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolfo_Constanzo) group / cult which, on the surface at least, appears to have truly believed in the efficacy of blood rituals.


The idea that when one is unhappy with their station in life, one should sacrifice a child in hopes of a better, wealthier future doesn't correlate with any known system stressors that I know of, except maybe demographic pressures.

Cosmological causality is the main one. Hmmm, let me give you an example of this. All cultures and societies operate on belief structures about how "reality" is structured and what causal linkages exist. And, while it is rare to find cultures that have a direct link of child sacrifice leads to prosperity, there are a few examples such as the Phonecians, Carthage (same culture group) and the Aztecs and their culture group. And yes, demographic pressure combined with high birth rates and exceedingly stratified societies are the main stressors.

The few places where we see it happening not at a general cultural level, but as an inversion, tend to be periods of either high social stress and desperation (e.g. the Constanzo cult) or periods of high anomie (e.g. late 19th century France), or times where people believe they are being "tested" (e.g. GEN 22:1-24 (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0122.htm#1)).


The belief system is a warped kind of theodicy where the thinking goes like this: if I make the ultimate sacrifice, I may be better off.

Oh, if my suspicions are correct, then it is indeed a warped theodicity. personally, my gut guess is that it is a syncretic front using primarily "Satanic" elements and symbolic logics.


There are indeed certain rituals with social structural links like this, but child sacrifice isn't one of them. I'm going to have to go with this just being a psychologically twisted kind of crime on this one.

Honestly, I don't have enough data to make even an argument from probability, so I'm (self)limited to ones of plausibility.

Cheers,

Marc

Tom OC
01-09-2010, 01:08 AM
It has indeed been awhile, Marc, and from my lurking here the last couple of years, it appears you're doing fine. We've been busy, rolling out new courses, hiring new faculty, holding symposiums, etc. Austin Peay is doing great. We'll have to get together again. Maybe our summer symposium on Indonesia. You may remember I did my dissertation fieldwork on Filipino terrorism. Did I every show you my collection of magic trinkets that ward off bullets? Anyway, I'd like to chat about your "con man syncretism" (for lack of a better term) idea. Basically, I agree that it's some kind of psycho-socio-religious hybrid crime, and I think we really need to develop some groundwork on such crimes. Can you SITREP me on relevant stuff already discussed? I've been doing most of my criminological research lately in the international human rights area (crimes against women and children), but these "magic man" con artists intrigue me in a riled up sort of way.
Tom

marct
01-09-2010, 02:19 PM
Hey Tom,


It has indeed been awhile, Marc, and from my lurking here the last couple of years, it appears you're doing fine.

Let's just say "it's been interesting" :wry:.


We've been busy, rolling out new courses, hiring new faculty, holding symposiums, etc. Austin Peay is doing great.

Excellent! I'm in the process of building several new courses myself which I will probably want to pick your brains about. More later on that one...


We'll have to get together again. Maybe our summer symposium on Indonesia. You may remember I did my dissertation fieldwork on Filipino terrorism. Did I every show you my collection of magic trinkets that ward off bullets?

Definitely a plan! I don't think I ever saw your collection, though. maybe next time I get down there. I have a few interesting "odds and ends" tucked away myself ;).


Anyway, I'd like to chat about your "con man syncretism" (for lack of a better term) idea. Basically, I agree that it's some kind of psycho-socio-religious hybrid crime, and I think we really need to develop some groundwork on such crimes. Can you SITREP me on relevant stuff already discussed? I've been doing most of my criminological research lately in the international human rights area (crimes against women and children), but these "magic man" con artists intrigue me in a riled up sort of way.

Not too much written on it, but I'll email you in the next few days. There's a lot of stuff on moral entrepreneurs, a bit of which, like the Satanism Scare, that is directly applicable. Most of the rest of it comes out of social history, the history of witchcraft, a bit of political science (e.g. witchcraft accusations in South Africa), folklore, etc. ad nauseum. It would probably be simpler for the two of us to just write a paper on it :wry:.

Cheers,

Marc

davidbfpo
01-09-2010, 02:48 PM
I have posted items on child sacrifice on another thread, on Uganda: http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=7483&page=3

Just noted issue appeared here.

marct
01-09-2010, 02:54 PM
Thanks, David

graphei
01-11-2010, 05:14 PM
I thought I'd throw my two pennies in about human sacrifice.

One of my 'guilty' pleasures when it comes to research is Black/Practical/Popular magic. Why? For the simple reason you find out what people really desire in life. Yes, for communal events people will band together and pray for puppies, rainbows, and kittens, but that is only one side to the coin. As long as people have believed in something bigger and more powerful than themselves, people have been trying to harness that power for their own benefit. While you may see it surface more during times of distress or transition, it has been- and always will be, there.

What is going in Uganda is unique because ~1% of the population practice indigenous religions. The rest overwhelmingly Christian (42% Catholic) with Muslims representing about 12%. I would be really interested to see if there is some kind of religious syncretism going on- similar to how Catholicism and African/Yoruba religion formed Vodou.


Also, aside from the cultures that were mentioned there is evidence that human sacrifice was practiced by the Minoans on Crete, who had a heavy influence on the Greeks. A dig at Anemospilia had the body of a young man hog tied on what archaeologists believe was an altar with a bronze dagger lodged in his bones. Another dig at Knossos revealed the bones of children who had been slaughtered in a similar manner to sheep and goats. The bones were found in a building archaeologists have dubbed "North House" and I believe no other artifacts were found near the bones.

In both the cases at Anemospilia and Knossos, archaeologists believe something ritualistic was going on, but why they were doing it is lost to the ages. We, from a 21st century perspective, would like to believe such events were to have an impact on events of cosmological importance, but in these cases, we simply have no religious records to go by.

marct
01-11-2010, 05:40 PM
Hi Graphei,


One of my 'guilty' pleasures when it comes to research is Black/Practical/Popular magic. Why? For the simple reason you find out what people really desire in life. Yes, for communal events people will band together and pray for puppies, rainbows, and kittens, but that is only one side to the coin. As long as people have believed in something bigger and more powerful than themselves, people have been trying to harness that power for their own benefit. While you may see it surface more during times of distress or transition, it has been- and always will be, there.

Certainly some form of it at any rate :wry:.


What is going in Uganda is unique because ~1% of the population practice indigenous religions. The rest overwhelmingly Christian (42% Catholic) with Muslims representing about 12%. I would be really interested to see if there is some kind of religious syncretism going on- similar to how Catholicism and African/Yoruba religion formed Vodou.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least of there was a syncretic element going on. I've seen the official "belief" figures but, on the whole, that really doesn't say much about either actual belief or practice. 'sides that, there is certainly a long history of "magic" (please note, no "k" ;)) inside Christianity.


Also, aside from the cultures that were mentioned there is evidence that human sacrifice was practiced by the Minoans on Crete, who had a heavy influence on the Greeks. A dig at Anemospilia had the body of a young man hog tied on what archaeologists believe was an altar with a bronze dagger lodged in his bones. Another dig at Knossos revealed the bones of children who had been slaughtered in a similar manner to sheep and goats. The bones were found in a building archaeologists have dubbed "North House" and I believe no other artifacts were found near the bones.

I'd certainly like to see the references on the Anemospilia dig (I have them on the sacrifice chamber at Knossos). Some of that might have been part of the Sacred King mythos....


In both the cases at Anemospilia and Knossos, archaeologists believe something ritualistic was going on, but why they were doing it is lost to the ages. We, from a 21st century perspective, would like to believe such events were to have an impact on events of cosmological importance, but in these cases, we simply have no religious records to go by.

Not necessarily so, we do have inferential records so we can make arguments from plausibility. Carlo Ginzberg's Ecstacies (http://www.amazon.com/Ecstasies-Deciphering-Witches-Carlo-Ginzburg/dp/0226296938/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_3) is a good example of exactly that type of interpretation. Even when we have documentary records, there are always problems with them, usually problems of bias.

Cheers,

Marc

graphei
01-11-2010, 08:03 PM
I went digging through my database and the most recent book I found the sacrifice at Anemospilia is mentioned by Kyriakides in Ritual in Bronze Age Aegean: Minoan Peak Sanctuaries. Marinatos put out a book in the early 80s about Minoan sacrifice rituals that delves into it a bit more, if my memory serves me correctly. The going story seems to be that there was considerable seismic activity going on in the region, and a human sacrifice was a last ditch effort to please the gods. The boy (~18) on the altar was already dead and his blood being drained when an earthquake struck and the priest (mid-30s I believe) and priestess (early 20s) were killed. It's been awhile since I had free time to devote to my love of all things ancient (damn al-Qaeda :D), so that story may have been revised.

For me, the problem of using methods like those on cultures like the Minoans is this; we can't really read what they were writing down to check the interpretation against. Linear A is still a mystery and anything writing in Linear B has to do with goods- even 'cult' objects found in temples. So what if Fred from Hamlet B brought 3 goat skins of vino and it's inscribed on fork found in a temple? Classicists/Archaeologists believe the Greek chthonic goddesses are Minoan in descent, but can we really reverse engineer religious beliefs from 5th Century Athenians? I don't know. I don't mean to be argumentative. Maybe it's my evil, inner Classicist that is very skeptical.

Anyway, I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for human sacrifices in Uganda. Might squeeze and article out of it someday...

marct
01-12-2010, 02:08 PM
Hi Graphei,

Thanks for the reference, i appreciate it. Now to find the time to track it down and actually read it ...:wry:


For me, the problem of using methods like those on cultures like the Minoans is this; we can't really read what they were writing down to check the interpretation against. Linear A is still a mystery and anything writing in Linear B has to do with goods- even 'cult' objects found in temples. So what if Fred from Hamlet B brought 3 goat skins of vino and it's inscribed on fork found in a temple? Classicists/Archaeologists believe the Greek chthonic goddesses are Minoan in descent, but can we really reverse engineer religious beliefs from 5th Century Athenians? I don't know. I don't mean to be argumentative. Maybe it's my evil, inner Classicist that is very skeptical.

Honestly, I don't know either :wry:. It's one of the reasons I like Ginzburg's approach; he doesn't say anything about "truth", just about plausibility. Admittedly, Linear B is pretty useless, but it does allow us to define the problem space better and let us disprove some hypotheses. then again, it's not often we find such great resources as the Pylos tablets....

As far as reverse engineering religious beliefs is concerned, that is a real problem. Some of it we can do pretty well, at least in terms of shaping the problem space. Building the logic chains, however, is a real problem, especially since we aren't dealing with anything that is uniform at all.

Like you, looking at Minoan (and earlier) religious systems is something I did a while back, and I haven't really kept up with what's coming out of archaeology in the area. It's one of those areas that I'd like to get back into - when I have 3-4 months of free time and don't have to earn a living :D.

Cheers,

Marc



Anyway, I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for human sacrifices in Uganda. Might squeeze and article out of it someday...

Beelzebubalicious
01-14-2010, 09:27 PM
Ran across this (http://cco.eventbrite.com/) and thought I would post it for feedback. I also suspect that Grant McCracken and Marc are close friends. I mean, they are both Anthropologists and Canadian...

M-A Lagrange
01-14-2010, 09:59 PM
Hello,

Just have a look on The Mask of Anarchy from Stephen Ellis.(http://www.amazon.com/Mask-Anarchy-Updated-Destruction-Religious/dp/0814722385/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263506259&sr=1-1)
Wonderfull book on Liberia and the role of canibalism into the construction of a society and how Taylor used it to destructure the society.
Interresting and chilling. Personnaly I would call that the absolute war: a strategy that aim to use the worst darkest side of a society to destroy not only the cultural tissu but to destroy even the pillars of it.

M-A

marct
01-14-2010, 09:59 PM
Ran across this (http://cco.eventbrite.com/) and thought I would post it for feedback. I also suspect that Grant McCracken and Marc are close friends. I mean, they are both Anthropologists and Canadian...

All I can say is ..... :p:D.

Oh, yeah,..... "No Comment".

Beelzebubalicious
01-20-2010, 03:19 PM
This (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/01/18/vbs.liberia/) is a disturbing look in to Liberia's violent past (and present?). Reason I post it here will be obvious when you watch the video and hear all the references to drinking the blood of innocent children and eating people's hearts...

Anthropologist in me sees this as chest thumping stuff, but then again...

marct
01-20-2010, 03:30 PM
This (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/01/18/vbs.liberia/) is a disturbing look in to Liberia's violent past (and present?). Reason I post it here will be obvious when you watch the video and hear all the references to drinking the blood of innocent children and eating people's hearts...

Anthropologist in me sees this as chest thumping stuff, but then again...

Very disturbing. "Chest thumping"? Maybe, but I would be extremely surprised if it isn't a) going on and b) accelerating in frequency.

M-A Lagrange
01-20-2010, 03:44 PM
I spend a year in Liberia in 2001 and I must say that human sacrifices were common things :eek: but noot accepted.
The population was against but, as described into Stephen Ellis book, it's the main counter power there. Liberia central State has been fighting against it basically since it's creation.

What is really disturbing in Liberia is that the symbolism into Christian religion has been used to legitimate canibal practices.

But I would also add this
1) it always has been a limited thing.
2) According too Ellis, Taylor deregulated the practice t make it common, accessible t all. And that's what sunked Liberia in a place that even the devil forgot (cf Liberians).
3) Population is against it and the deregulatioon of it has been one of the core reasons Liberia peace has been achieved through an in depth societal change: they elected a women!

Hacksaw
01-20-2010, 03:50 PM
You're right... disturbing and I thought I was past being surprised by the brutality of the human race... and we've essentially ignored (or worse) this area for so long...:(

marct
01-20-2010, 04:13 PM
What is really disturbing in Liberia is that the symbolism into Christian religion has been used to legitimate canibal practices.

The symbolism has always been in the Christian religion, but it has usually been contained and blocked off (think about the debates over transubstantiation vs. consubstantiation). It was also been a major symbolic inversion used in the reconstruction of witches as Christian "heretics" during the 15th - 17th centuries ce or earlier against the cathars, the Bogomils, the Jews, etc.

Part of the reason why it was blocked off, other than the PR part about it being the "final sacrifice", is that Christian symbology has pretty much always known that blood magic is quite powerful in terms of manipulating perceptions, emotions and actions. I hadn't realized that Taylor "deregulated" it but, again, that's a pretty standard move in opposition to a dominant symbol system.

M-A Lagrange
01-20-2010, 08:24 PM
It's Ellis theory on Liberia, not mine. But I must say that it fitted well in the paysage.

About the Christian symbolic, yes I agree. The Christian rite is symbolic canibalism. But what is really disturbing is to face people who really believe that they did a Christian act by eating human flesh and drinking human blood.
Even if you're not Christian.
Taking distance with the subject of study does not help much.

marct
01-20-2010, 09:01 PM
Hi MA,


It's Ellis theory on Liberia, not mine. But I must say that it fitted well in the paysage.

Point taken and, yes, it does fit....


About the Christian symbolic, yes I agree. The Christian rite is symbolic canibalism. But what is really disturbing is to face people who really believe that they did a Christian act by eating human flesh and drinking human blood.
Even if you're not Christian.
Taking distance with the subject of study does not help much.

Those people who believe that they have committed a "Christian act" by doing so, they need to study their own religion. Unfortunately, that is unlikely to happen :wry:.

Most cultures have a really strong taboo against cannibalism, except in certain, extremely limited, circumstances. Being able to distance oneself somewhat does let you deal with that, at least analytically, and to try and figure out what the barriers are.

Once that barrier has been breached, there are some very interesting "opportunities" that develop. For instance, people who start using blood magic, which is what this appears to be, are extremely susceptible to certain types of symbolic attacks. They tend to become paranoid in the extreme and, at the same time, become wide open to being psychologically manipulated, especially if they are inverting a dominant symbol system. Of course, that assumes that the people opposing them a) know what they are doing symbolically, and b) are prepared to "go the distance" as it were.

Cheers,

Marc

M-A Lagrange
01-21-2010, 09:27 PM
Once that barrier has been breached, there are some very interesting "opportunities" that develop. For instance, people who start using blood magic, which is what this appears to be, are extremely susceptible to certain types of symbolic attacks. They tend to become paranoid in the extreme and, at the same time, become wide open to being psychologically manipulated, especially if they are inverting a dominant symbol system. Of course, that assumes that the people opposing them a) know what they are doing symbolically, and b) are prepared to "go the distance" as it were.

Yes... Well... I did not try.

What really amazed me in Liberia, at the opposite, was the fact that by deregulating this, Taylor was able to completely disrupt the social tissue.
Before Taylor, many tribes in Liberia were considering that once you have made war, you earn social respect. Basically war was view as a social elevator. Cannibalism (as magic practice) as a political counter power.

After Taylor (and during Taylor for me), the populations in the village did not accept the atrocities done by the youth (Who were forced most of the time).
They went too far. And most of the ex fighters, even if they believe they did the right thing, still were unconfortable with what they did.
But transforming yourself into a ghost to kill the ennemies was completely accepted...:confused:

Uganda and Great Lakes, is another story.

marct
01-21-2010, 09:47 PM
Hi M-A,


Yes... Well... I did not try.

LOL - I know - maybe, and it's a big maybe - half a dozen people who have the skill set and attitude necessary to do this. Trying to do something in this line without the skill set and attitude will just get you, and a lot of other people, killed in a really grizzly manner.


What really amazed me in Liberia, at the opposite, was the fact that by deregulating this, Taylor was able to completely disrupt the social tissue.
Before Taylor, many tribes in Liberia were considering that once you have made war, you earn social respect. Basically war was view as a social elevator. Cannibalism (as magic practice) as a political counter power.

I have to wonder why he did it. At a pure, gut level, guess - and please correct me if you know better! - I suspect he thought it was about on par with teenagers fooling around with Satanic rituals.


After Taylor (and during Taylor for me), the populations in the village did not accept the atrocities done by the youth (Who were forced most of the time).
They went too far. And most of the ex fighters, even if they believe they did the right thing, still were unconfortable with what they did.

Yeah, I've run across that one before. It's nasty as all get out and has repercussions for generations. There *might* be a couple of ways to get rid of some of the effects, but I don't know enough about the specifics in Liberia to come up with more than the base structure.


But transforming yourself into a ghost to kill the ennemies was completely accepted...:confused:

Sure, why not? Long history of that in Central / West Africa (and other areas, too).


Uganda and Great Lakes, is another story.

Oh, yeah....

Damn, this is getting depressing. I think I'd better turn up the volume on my mp3 player (currently playing Allegri's Miseri Mei).....

M-A Lagrange
01-21-2010, 10:36 PM
marct:
I have to wonder why he did it. At a pure, gut level, guess - and please correct me if you know better! - I suspect he thought it was about on par with teenagers fooling around with Satanic rituals.

Do not forget that Liberia has a very particular history. It's the only African country colonized by Black people (may be Sierra Leone also).
What I did observe there was: the natives, the original people of Liberia, dreaming of America (more gangsta rap than anything else but still America). And the Congos, the descendants of slaves imported to Liberia as Freemen, dreaming of a savage Africa (like in Tarzan I would say).
So you have 2 groups who built their representation of the opponent culture on that imaginary model made of Hollywood movies and cheap pulps.

Personally, I believe that Taylor (he is a "Congo" educated in US) just wanted to be "African" and terrorizes his adversaries. He also completely felt into the wired Christian interpretation of cannibalism and the magic force that eating hearts, sex and leaver of his adversaries would give him.
But he also destroyed purposely sacred lands, exposed the ritual masks… I really believe that he was in a total American dream of savage Africa.

graphei
01-22-2010, 12:33 AM
brushing up on some languages and I see all of this!

All of this talk of Christianity and cannibalism got me thinking. Have any of you ever read Smith's Jesus the Magician? For those not familiar, Smith's thesis was that Jesus was a black mage/con man/necromancer who studied in Egypt and picked up some bitchin' tattoos while he was there. All of his 'miracles' were not acts of God, but rather produced by Satan. The cult grew after his death and turned into what we have today. The book made a big splash in the day, but now it's read for entertainment, as a warning to undergrads of how not to do textual reconstruction, or as a Gospel among some of the tinfoil hat crowd.

Lagrange, I'm very interested in what you said about Taylor trying to be "African" and how such an identity was constructed using Hollywood/American stereotypes. For a long while, anything associated with African religion was thought to be one huge Satanic cult- witch doctors, cannibals- the whole 9 yards. I wonder how much of that mixed with some remnants of some gnostic groups that practiced such rituals is going on?

marct
01-22-2010, 01:02 AM
Hey Graphei, that's what you get for taking a break :D!


All of this talk of Christianity and cannibalism got me thinking. Have any of you ever read Smith's Jesus the Magician? For those not familiar, Smith's thesis was that Jesus was a black mage/con man/necromancer who studied in Egypt and picked up some bitchin' tattoos while he was there. All of his 'miracles' were not acts of God, but rather produced by Satan. The cult grew after his death and turned into what we have today. The book made a big splash in the day, but now it's read for entertainment, as a warning to undergrads of how not to do textual reconstruction, or as a Gospel among some of the tinfoil hat crowd.

Yup, I read it. I think he read too much of the Gospel of Simon Magus ;)!


For a long while, anything associated with African religion was thought to be one huge Satanic cult- witch doctors, cannibals- the whole 9 yards. I wonder how much of that mixed with some remnants of some gnostic groups that practiced such rituals is going on?

Gnostic groups practicing such rituals? None of the gnostic groups I know practice anything like that although, in all fairness, some of the Lodges I know of do. You're not thinking of the slander against the Valentinians, are you?

My gut guess, and I'm hoping that M-A knows enough to correct me, is that there is some weird form of double syncretism going on here. If we look at most of the syncretic religions that come out of the slave era - locumba, candolbe, vodoo, santeria, etc. - there is usually a fairly heavy emphasis on possession states as a key to power. On the "dark" side of them, this gets mixed in with a lot of 16th-17th century Catholic magic in its formal, aka ceremonial, form with, I'll admit, a really nasty set of add-ons tying in with blood magic. Totally different from anything gnostic :wry:.

graphei
01-22-2010, 08:56 PM
I was taught to categorize any group as gnostic if they maintained that 'secret', esoteric knowledge outside of what was revealed would lead to salvation.

Regardless of their practices all gnostic groups presented a big problem for the early Church. One end of the gnostic spectrum incest, murder, cannibalism, bestiality, etc., was alleged, drawing the ire of the State and giving Christians a bad name. The more scholarly, philosophical bunch were quietly undermining the authority of the Church, adding to the problems the early Church fathers were having. I'm sure you can all figure out what happened next...

While groups like the Valintinians are gnostic poster children, there was definitely something else going on in the shadows that theologians and philosophers are loathe to talk about, but Classicists won't shut up about. It survives by mention in letters between Church fathers discussing the 'issues' and Roman officials gossiping. Most of the good evidence is held at the Sackler in Oxford under lock and key.

marct
01-22-2010, 09:23 PM
Hi graphei,


I was taught to categorize any group as gnostic if they maintained that 'secret', esoteric knowledge outside of what was revealed would lead to salvation.

Hmmm, we might want to start trying to differentiate; the term can be used in so many ways. For example, using your definition, we could include certain factions in the CIA :eek:!


Regardless of their practices all gnostic groups presented a big problem for the early Church. One end of the gnostic spectrum incest, murder, cannibalism, bestiality, etc., was alleged, drawing the ire of the State and giving Christians a bad name. The more scholarly, philosophical bunch were quietly undermining the authority of the Church, adding to the problems the early Church fathers were having. I'm sure you can all figure out what happened next...

Hummph! Last frequency distribution spread I say for 50 - 150 ce had the Gnostics in the majority being attacked by a bunch of Plato loving fascists :cool:. Yeah, I've read a chunk of the allegations but they sound a little too Rush Limbaugh for me to credit. As for the scholarly bunch undermining the "authority of the Church"; good guys! Anyway, the modern, orthodox church doesn't come into being until Constantine creates his own with a healthy dose of Mithraism in it. This is what happens when you let bureaucrats run a religion....


While groups like the Valintinians are gnostic poster children, there was definitely something else going on in the shadows that theologians and philosophers are loathe to talk about, but Classicists won't shut up about. It survives by mention in letters between Church fathers discussing the 'issues' and Roman officials gossiping. Most of the good evidence is held at the Sackler in Oxford under lock and key.

I've seen some of the stuff but, again, it really doesn't hold that much validity for me since we see the same accusations showing up time and time again for a whole variety of groups. As for Valentinus, he always reminded me a bit of Anton Levay ;). As you say, the dangerous crowd were the ones in Alexandria (e.g. the Gospel of Mary group). Too bad they couldn't take down the fascists who leter grabbed control....

Cheers,

Marc

ps. If you happen to note a "slight" bias, that's because it's definitely there :D

M-A Lagrange
01-22-2010, 09:28 PM
Graphei, Marct

I will try to respond but I am absolutly not a religion speciallist. My field being politic and conflict/humanitarism.

In Liberia, the main influences are the secret societies. You have 2 secret societies imaginaries/sincretism/paradigm that met/clash and finally mixed in Liberia.
1) the leopard secret societies. With all the initiation or the adolescent going in the bush for a month to be taught the secrets of the tribe and some being chosen to become sorcerer but also to be part of secret societies. Also, during that time the individuals are no more human and some may die, eaten by the Devil of the Bush. Do not know what it recovers in reality. Ellis assumption is that it is a ritual practice of cannibalism (they eat the dead bodies) controled by being done out of the humanity environment. (the Devil of the Bush and the Bush Schools).

2) the francmacon imported from the US.

I think that the 2 found a sort of negative match in each others as secret societies are not really secret in West Africa and the Francs macon neither in US. (It's completely different in Europe).

Concerning the Hollywood/Pulp influence. It's my personal impression and analyse of what I saw and heard when I was there.
The fighters were high and listening Reagge, watching Rambo and Schwarzeneger movies. For them there was no difference between their reallity and a movie. A movie was scenes and stories filmed live with real people.
One of the blockbuster of all times in Liberia was the snuff movie of Samuel Doe (the former dictator in the 80) tortured by Prince Johnson (A Taylor lieutnant). All filmed by a PLO cameraman... :confused: It's basically a remake "live" of Scarphace. All what they want are the Swiss Bank Accounts details.
On the other hand, Taylor is a pure product of USA. Ha has a MAB but was caught dealing drugs, freed by CIA, trained in Lybia...
The urban youth were dreaming of "Boys in the Hood". They were listening Gangsta rap... Compare to their daily struggle to survive, this was paradise.

Both sides did construct their imaginary on "made in USA" cheap cultural products.

M-A