250 Insurgents Die in Battle

[Culpeper]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - U.S.-backed Iraqi troops on Sunday attacked insurgents allegedly plotting to kill pilgrims at a major Shiite Muslim religious festival, and Iraqi officials estimated some 250 militants died in the daylong battle near Najaf. A U.S. helicopter crashed during the fight, killing two American soldiers. (http://apnews.myway.com//article/20070128/D8MUIT884.html)

Wow! This is a big fight for one day in Iraq. That is nearly a small battalion KIA. Nice job. Patton style.

[tequila]

Interesting that some Iraqi officials claim these are Shia "cults" and some are claiming them as Sunni insurgents.

I'd wait a bit before making any judgments about this engagement.

[Culpeper]

Oh, I'm not making any judgments and I know where you're coming from. I'm just stating that is a lot of dudes KIA in one day if the reports are correct. I'm not interested in who these guys were/are. Iraqi and Coalition forces killed them. Whoever they were they decided to stand and fight. I also love the way the AP gives the headline of the story then throw in "A Day in Iraq". They rarely have a single story covering a single incident. Just in case you feel compelled to celebrate or acknowledge a counterinsurgency victory they'll find a way to throw in that the insurgents blew up a PetSmart full of people and pets observing, "Bring in Your Pet Day Pilgrimage".

[tequila]

Well, that's kind of the thing, isn't it? Is this a "counterinsurgency victory?" This Iraqi blogger doesn't think so (http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_healingiraq_archive.html#37254196237664 95231).


The official U.S. and Iraqi story about what happened in Najaf today, which was swallowed and propagated by news wires (and apparently also the New York Times), is complete nonsense. First of all, they can’t even decide whether they were fighting Sunni insurgents or a “violent Shi’ite cult,” as Reuters’ unnamed self-appointed expert put it in their story. Secondly, the U.S. and Iraqi descriptions don’t match and both contain gross inconsistencies; Najaf’s governor, As’ad Abu Gilel, who is a member of the pro-Iranian SCIRI, said they were Sunni insurgents, including Pakistani and Afghan fighters, plotting to stage an attack against Shia pilgrims commemorating the holy month of Muharram in Najaf, and to possibly attack the Shi’ite clerical leadership that is based in the old city, around the shrine of Imam Ali. Then he turned around and said they were local [Shia] loyalists to ousted dictator Saddam Hussein, probably referring to the Shi’ite tribe of Bani Hassan around Kufa, which facilitated the assault by Saddam’s Republican Guard against rebels in the 1991 Intifada. (The Bani Hassan tribe is despised by major Shi’ite political parties, and residents of Najaf scornfully refer to their town of Al-Abbasiya, across the Euphrates from Kufa, as Al-Ouja, which is the hometown of Saddam Hussein near Tikrit. Many members of Bani Hassan also supported Sadrists in their 2004 uprising.) A U.S. military source confirmed that 250 “insurgents” were killed and several other militants were captured, including a Sudanese. An Iraqi security source, however, as well as the local Iraqi media, identified the militants as members of a Shi’ite splinter group called Al-Mahdiyoun or Ansar Al-Imam Al-Mahdi, which if true means the U.S. military was once again duped into doing the dirty work of SCIRI and other Shi’ite factions – and, I daresay, Iran – for them.

...

But, as I said, he barely has a few hundred followers scattered all over the country, and I doubt that he would come up with something as foolish as attacking Najaf, because actually it was his movement that has been under attack lately by Iraqi security forces, heavily infiltrated by SCIRI in the south. Last week, his main office and husseiniya in Najaf was raided and destroyed with several of his followers detained by the Aqrab (Scorpion) Brigade of Interior Ministry Commandos. The same happened to his offices in Basrah, Amara and Karbala, days ago. Al-Hassan himself was placed under house arrest in Tannumah, Basrah, by the Iraqi government some months ago.

I suspect this whole campaign is a result of Al-Hassan’s strange, unorthodox teachings and his defiance of the mainstream Shi’ite religious and political institution, including, most importantly, Iran. The movement’s detractors claim the group has engaged in obscene behaviour such as walking naked in public or hosting group sex orgies in husseiniyas and mosques, in order to “provoke” the Imam Al-Mahdi to return, or that they are Saddam loyalists who were planted just before the war by the regime to undermine the Najaf clerical authority, with some even claiming the group is Israeli or supported by US. radical Christian movements.

The “preemptive” crackdown against Al-Hassan – like that against Mahmoud Al-Sarkhi months ago, which I wrote about here – bears all the signs of U.S. Shi’ite allies (SCIRI and Da’wa) fooling the U.S. into supporting them in their intra-Shi’ite struggle to control the south. This is even more shocking because these “cults,” as crazy as they may sound, have never carried arms or posed a threat to anyone; their activities are restricted to theological debate and polemics with other Shi’ite clerics and movements. The fact that they may have a few armed followers means nothing. Virtually everyone in Iraq is armed to the teeth. This might actually turn out to be a massacre against some harmless cultists. If true, then congratulations to the U.S. for carrying out Iran’s dirty deeds in Iraq yet again.

It certainly doesn't sound plausible that over 400+ insurgents would mass in a single grove to be conveniently slaughtered by the Najaf police and army, which are wholly owned by the Badr Brigades. If so, it's one of the biggest single assemblies of insurgent forces in Iraq since Fallujah.

[Culpeper]

Iraqis: At Least 200 Insurgents Killed (http://apnews.myway.com//article/20070129/D8MUVL8G0.html)

The press is sticking to their story.

[Rob Thornton]

It certainly doesn't sound plausible that over 400+ insurgents would mass in a single grove to be conveniently slaughtered by the Najaf police and army, which are wholly owned by the Badr Brigades. If so, it's one of the biggest single assemblies of insurgent forces in Iraq since Fallujah.

Well something similiar did happ here back in OCT. Back in OCT about 150 insurgents (most were what we call part timers or recent converts) assembled in about a 1 KM area close to a large US FOB. They had several different staging points within the city area. They were identified by the IPs and IA basically getting overtly out of cars and trucks and loading up from large mobile caches. The IPs and IA did not wait, but opened fire on any who did not immediately get down on the ground. The area was later cordoned off and house to house searches rounded up the rest.

How did this happen you ask? Why did the AIF treat the operation like a dove hunt? Well it turns out they were misinformed or maybe disinformed. Many had been told a story (possibly to embolden them) that the IA and IP would assist them in an attack on the CF FOB.

Lots of stuff seized from that one - heavy mortars, DshKas, PKCs, Sniper rifles, etc - also seized was a target list with complete names of some IA officers they were to look for and assassinate (which incidentally the Ninewa Gov read aloud on Mosul TV:mad: ). It reminded me of an episode of "You've been Punked".

This was a big morale boost as it was primarily an ISF success, but it never really made the news.

About 2 weeks later the AIF gave it another try. They used about 12 teams of 15 men and conducted distributed attacks against ISF HQs and outposts. Again the ISF handed them a defeat - it was another good day.


I think allot of the reason you see them mass is due to necessity. Its a matter of C2, quality of recruit and training (many of the guys we see now are green - the vets are in many cases dead or locked up - mostly dead). They basically have only a few choices when trying to carry off something really big with guys that who may fight well individually, but are not used to being coordinated - put them in mass and do Slim's #8 (mandatory Blazing Saddles ref.), or break them up and give them well known targets with a tee time. We've seen both up here.

[tequila]

More info comes out (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070129/ts_nm/iraq_dc;_ylt=Agd9Ay2wSzE1p8FKbXqNviTMWM0F;_ylu=X3o DMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-). Leaning towards the Shia "cult" theory now, as opposed to Sunni insurgents as the Najaf governor originally said. Also the presence of families amongst the "insurgents." I wonder at the proportion of women and kids to gunmen.


Women and children who joined 600-700 of his "Soldiers of Heaven" on the outskirts of the Shi'ite holy city may be among the casualties, Shirwan al-Waeli told Reuters. All those people not killed were in detention, many of them wounded.

...

Some of the fighters wore headbands describing themselves as "Soldiers of Heaven," Iraqi officials said. It was not clear how many women and children were present: "It is very sad to bring families onto the battlefield," Waeli said.

When police first approached the camp and tried to call on the group to leave, their leader replied: "I am the Mahdi and I want you to join me," Waeli said, adding: "Today was supposed to be the day of his coming."

Other Iraqi officials said on Sunday that a man named Ahmed Hassani al-Yemeni, who had been working from an office in Najaf until it was closed down earlier this month, had assembled the group, claiming to be the messenger of the Mahdi.

We'll see how this plays out eventually. I sure hope American tanks weren't called in to do SCIRI's dirty work.

[Rob Thornton]

Cell phone videos now coming out on local and Iraqi news - if'n they were dove hunters, them was some well armed ones. Lots of other bad guys showing up down South - IPs grabbed an Afghani and a Saudi with suicide vests in Karbala, and I saw where some Yemenis got caught.

[tequila]

LATIMES (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraq29jan29,0,4626909.story?coll=la-home-headlines)has the latest:


Iraqi security officials offered conflicting accounts of the identity and motives of the heavily armed fighters outside Najaf, variously describing them as foreign fighters, Sunni Muslim nationalists, loyalists of executed former dictator Saddam Hussein or followers of a messianic Shiite death cult. Some witnesses reported that the attackers wore colorful Afghan tribal robes.

The cause of the helicopter crash near Najaf was unclear, but U.S. and Iraqi officials said there was ground fire before the craft went down, and witnesses said they saw it shot out of the sky. It was the third U.S. helicopter to go down in Iraq in eight days.

...

Iraqi security forces took authority over Najaf's security about a month ago. Witnesses and security officials said Sunday that Iraqi forces were being defeated by the enigmatic, well-organized fighters until U.S. air support and U.S.-Iraqi ground troops arrived.

Shaky footage recorded by mobile telephone, broadcast on Iraqi television, showed Iraqi soldiers hunkered behind a berm as intense gunfire erupted and smoke rose in the distance.

Ali Nomas, an Iraqi security official in Najaf, said the fighters belonged to a group calling itself Heaven's Army, one of several messianic cults that have appeared among Shiites who believe in the imminent return of Imam Mahdi, the last in the line of Shiite saints who disappeared more than 1,000 years ago. Nomas said the information came from interviews with at least 10 detained fighters.

"Everyday someone claims he's the Mahdi," he said.

Nomas said the leader of the hitherto unknown Heaven's Army had told followers that he was a missing son of the Imam Ali, the cousin and son-in-law of the prophet Muhammad. Ali's remains are entombed in Najaf.

"They believe that the Mahdi has called them to fight in Najaf," Nomas said, adding that fighters had converged on the Najaf area from other predominantly Shiite cities in Iraq.

He lamented that Iraq's death and destruction had convinced some Shiites that the end of days was coming.

"There's nothing bizarre left in Iraq anymore," Nomas said in a telephone interview. "We've seen the most incredible things."

Najaf Gov. Asad Abu Gulal said some of the fighters were members of Hussein's Baath Party.

Although they disagreed on the attackers' identity, Iraqi officials and witnesses offered similar accounts of events on the battlefield. Most of the fighting took place in farmland outside the city, which is home to Iraq's most revered Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani. Security forces cordoned off the ancient, labyrinthine city to prevent attacks on pilgrims, clergy and holy sites, the governor said.

The gunmen, numbering at least 500, apparently planned to launch their attack today, the 10th day of the Muslim lunar month of Muharram and the holiest day in the Shiite calendar. But Iraqi security forces were tipped off Sunday night about their presence on nearby farms, Gulal said.

Iraqi security forces struck at dawn but were overwhelmed by the militants, who had dug trenches on farms. At least two Iraqi soldiers were killed in the initial fighting, a security official in Baghdad said.

Iraqi forces then called in U.S. air support as well as the Scorpion Brigades, an Iraqi quick-reaction force based in a neighboring province.

Helicopters arrived, but after one was downed about 1:30 p.m., they were replaced by higher-flying jets, as American Humvees and armored vehicles rolled into the area.

Three more Iraqi soldiers were killed, as were at least 250 of the militants, according to several Iraqi officials. Those numbers could not be independently confirmed. By 4 p.m., the tide of the battle had shifted, but U.S. forces continued bombing into the night in an attempt to stamp out remnants of the militants, Iraqi officials and witnesses said.

[GPaulus]

Something just doesn't add up. To mass Insurgents in Iraq on this scale would truely be a first. I don't think we are getting the full report yet unless the insurgency is beginning to matastisize. Insurgents operate on a very small scale relatively speaking. They lack the fire power, manning and training to engage in this type of large operation. In addition, the reports that women and children were present makes me question the validity and reliability of the story. Insurgents in Iraq are Men 18 - 40 years old. The story reminds me of my days in Bosnia when we received a report that there was a major riot in our sector. When we flushed the predator, we quickly learned that it was a broken down school bus and that the kids and community all came out to see what was happening. Time will tell but I suspect that there is more to this story than is being reported.

[Culpeper]

It appears that these guys stood and fought. The result was the equivalent of a large company size element of the enemy being decimated. Who these people were is moot. They planned on murdering innocent people. They got what was coming to them. And I for one am glad to see it being reported. What's the matter? Some of you guys afraid the counterinsurgency did something right? We got to look for dead women and children first?

Let's not forget that the insurgents have lost the valuable asset of just not losing to attain goals. They have to win now. Seems some people are still trying to find reasoning behind fanatics. They had a reason for occupying the ground. We may not understand it. But it wasn't our reason

[jcustis]

I'll sidetrack this a bit and pose a question. What if this band of merry men, whomever they were, did get to Sistani and his lieutenants, and killed them.

What would happen if Sistani were to be martyred?

[tequila]

Culpeper,

I have no problem seeing bad guys getting theirs. I do have an issue with relying solely on Iraqi government officials for sourcing, especially since this particular government is under the control of SCIRI, who are allied quite openly with Iran --- not our friends, in other words.

Two brave American pilots died in this particular action. I'd like it if they died killing enemies of our country, not fighting one Shia faction's battle against another Shia faction.

[Culpeper]

Culpeper,

I have no problem seeing bad guys getting theirs. I do have an issue with relying solely on Iraqi government officials for sourcing, especially since this particular government is under the control of SCIRI, who are allied quite openly with Iran --- not our friends, in other words.

He has a good question...



"What would happen if Sistani were to be martyred?"

[GPaulus]

Who these people were is moot. What's the matter? Some of you guys afraid the counterinsurgency did something right?

I am not afraid that counterinsurgency warfare did something right, I am concerned that what we are seeing is no longer an insurgency. That it is changing right before our eyes. It may be becoming a full blown civil war. The TTPs of insurgents are not about large scale engagements--it just doesn't fit their MO. What may be happening is much different than a simple insurgency and our tactics and warfare will have to change accordingly.

[SWJED]

H/T to The Belmont Club for linking to this thread (http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2007/01/heavens-army.html) and a welcome to Belmont readers. From that post:


... Whatever organization these individuals belong to, they had serious firepower, as evidenced by the cell phone video and their ability to down a US helicopter. Their religious identity remains mysterious, what with the Afghan robes and reports that it was headed by the "Madhi". But bizarre events do happen in the Third World. It is not wholly impossible for a cult leader to assemble a group of people to engage in improbable behavior, whether it involves the Branch Davidian or the now-forgotten Lapiang Malaya. This article from Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,902050,00.html) in1967 describes that strange incident...

More at the link...

[Culpeper]

I'll sidetrack this a bit and pose a question. What if this band of merry men, whomever they were, did get to Sistani and his lieutenants, and killed them.

What would happen if Sistani were to be martyred?

Considering he may be the most influential person in post-invasion Iraq, I would dare to guess that it would have given those folks that don't know that an insurgency is a civil war, a pretty good idea of what a big civil war would be like. Sistani was very influential in the promoting of a fair election to create a new government in Iraq and has criticized the U.S.A. for not being democratic enough. So, to answer your question. The murder of Sistani and his lieutenants would have set off major chaos and human suffering yet seen in the region. And it would have been a major victory for the enemy.

[jcustis]

My thoughts exactly Culpeper...


A martyred Sistani would, in my view, unleash the wrath of Shi'a backlash that would certainly send the country into the abyss. -mine from another thread.

We'd see internecine bloodshed on a staggering scale, unless we interposed ourselves between the two sides. Are we capable of doing that?

[SWJED]

I've been posting updates on the SWJ Daily News Links page - here. (http://smallwarsjournal.com/news/daily/070130.htm) There are several blog links towards the bottom - more of both in the morning.

[Culpeper]

Culpeper,



Two brave American pilots died in this particular action. I'd like it if they died killing enemies of our country, not fighting one Shia faction's battle against another Shia faction.

We're fighting a counterinsurgency war. It is an unconventional war. Not a conventional war. Your Commander-in-Chief has made it very clear any foe set on harming our troops or attacking innocent Iraqi people will pay firmly. This isn't Guadalcanal. Not in intensity. Not in tactics. Not in strategy. The goal of this group of enemy was to create such a level of chaos that the counterinsurgency would not be able to recover. The Americans KIA were fighting the correct enemy and not an enemy of personal convenience. And that is a fact.

[Uboat509]

I'm going to have to reserve judgment on this one. Had it been us that had killed 200 bad guys I would have been the first one to to say "F*** yeah! We got them!" But since it was a force that has questionable loyalties to say the least I maintain that something about this thing doesn't smell right. Particularly now that Iran appears to be more directly active in Iraq. I want to hear what happened from a CF source not a SCIRI mouthpiece. Maybe I am too cynical.

SFC W

[tequila]

The Americans KIA were fighting the correct enemy and not an enemy of personal convenience. And that is a fact.

I have no idea how you have arrived at this level of certainty. Is it blind faith or do you have alternate sources of information?

Zeyad at Healing Iraq (http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_healingiraq_archive.html#61558473132055 27121)has some good stuff on all the different versions of the Najaf battle floating around in Iraq right now, including vastly contradictory claims by different Iraqi government officials:


The Sadrist account: Nahrain Net, a Sadrist website, quotes anonymous sources from the Hawza and security officials in Najaf that an armed group named “Jund Al-Samaa’” (the Army of Heaven, the Soldiers of Heaven, the Soldiers of the Skies) were amassing in palm groves at Zarga, north of Kufa, and that they were plotting to take supreme Shi’ite clerics in Najaf, including Sistani, Ishaq Al-Fayyadh, Ya’qubi, Mohammed Al-Hakim, and Muqtada Al-Sadr, as hostages in order to use as a bargain to control the shrine of Imam Ali in Najaf. Allegedly, a list was found with the group that contained names of senior clerics in Najaf and Karbala, and that Muqtada was number two on the list after Sistani. They added that the group was coordinating with Ba’athists and Al-Qaeda and that they have received logistic and monetary backing from Saudi Arabia.

...

Ahmed Du’aibil, Media Spokesman of the Najaf Governorate (SCIRI): 250 – 300 militants were killed in the clashes at Zarga. “16 terrorists” were detained, including two Egyptians and a Saudi.

The Iraqi News Agency quotes an unnamed Iraqi security source that the group’s leader is Ahmed Kadhim Al-Gar’awi Al-Basri (Ahmed Hassan Al-Basri), born 1969, and was a Hawza student of Sayyid Mohammed Sadiq Al-Sadr (Muqtada’s father) in Najaf. He left to Iran right before the war and declared himself the vanguard of Imam Al-Mahdi, leading to his imprisonment by Iranian authorities for heresy. He was released and returned to Iraq after the war and he started preaching in Basrah, where he also put under house arrest by Iraqi authorities. His schools and husseiniyas in major cities in the south were closed and vandalised by Iraqi security forces and the Scorpion Brigade of the Interior Ministry Commandos detained several of his followers in Najaf last week. The source added that 140 militants were captured in the clashes yesterday.

SCIRI’s Buratha News Agency quotes a source in the Dhu Al-Fiqar Brigade, which fought the militants yesterday, saying over 1,000 “terrorists” were killed and 50 detained, with 200 “brainwashed women and children.” He added that the area was full of corpses and a large amount of ammunition and weapons was confiscated.

Deputy Governor of Najaf Abdul Hussein Abtan (SCIRI), as quoted on Al-Iraqiya TV: “Hundreds of terrorists have been killed, and hundreds detained. Their brainwashed families were also at the location and we are moving them to another place and clearing the killed and prisoners to complete investigations. Our information indicates that foreign groups funded this operation, but they used false slogans and recruited naive people in order to destroy holy Najaf and to kill the great clerics as a starting point and then to move to control other governorates. That is what their slain leader, who called himself the Imam Al-Mahdi, told them.” The deputy governor first said the group’s leader was a Lebanese national, but later he identified him as Dhiaa’ Abdul Zahra Kadhim, from Hilla. It seems there were no journalists to point out this contradiction to him in the room when he made this statement.

Najaf Governor As’ad Abu Gilel (SCIRI): The group was led by a man named Ali bin Ali bin Abi Talib. Their planned attack was meant to destroy the Shiite community, kill the grand ayatollahs, destroy the convoys and occupy the holy shrine. He identified the group as “Shi’ite in its exterior, but not in its core.”

Another unnamed captain in the Iraqi Army, quoted by Buratha News Agency: “The leader who was killed claimed he was the Mahdi. He is in his forties and is from Diwaniya. Many Arab fighters were captured including Lebanese, Egyptians and Sudanese.”

Major General Othman Al-Ghanimi, Iraqi commander in charge of Najaf quoted by AP: Members of the group, including women and children, planned to disguise themselves as pilgrims and kill as many leading clerics as possible. The group’s leader, wearing jeans, a coat and a hat and carrying two pistols was among those who were killed in the battle. Saddam’s Al-Quds Army, a people’s militia established in the late 1990s, once used the same area where the group was based.

Ahmed Al-Fatlawi (SCIRI), member of Najaf Governorate Council, quoted by AP: "We have information from our intelligence sources that indicated the leader of this group had links with the former regime elements since 1993. Some of the gunmen brought their families with them in order to make it easier to enter the city. The women have been detained.”

Colonel Ali Jiraiw, spokesman for the Najaf police, quoted by the Guardian: “The group which calls itself Army of Heaven had established itself two years ago in farms near Kufa. But it ran into trouble with the Jaish al-Mahdi militia loyal to Shia cleric Muqtada Al-Sadr, who has a base in Kufa and who regards the group as heretical. The group is led by Sheikh Ahmed Hassan Al-Yamani, and its followers believe in the imminent return of the Mahdi, a messiah-like figure whose coming heralds the dawn of a kingdom of peace and justice."

So let me get this straight. The Iraqi officials can't agree on who they were fighting or who their leader was, so how did they figure out all these colourful details about "brainwashed women and children" and the intentions of killing all clerics or bombing the shrine or taking over the shrine, etc.?

Also, alleged eyewitnesses said they saw fighters in "Afghan robes." What is an Afghan robe, anyway? I doubt someone from Kufa would know an Afghan robe when they see it. Also, why doesn't the government produce the evidence that foreign fighters have been captured?

[GPaulus]

It is interesting to learn that these were not insurgents but more, a religious cult. The insurgency paradigm and their TTPs have not changed--local engagements--within km of their home, small scale, tactical in nature.

[Culpeper]

I think the term, "cult" is moot.


Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source


Main Entry: insurgent
Function: adjective
: rising in opposition to civil or political authority or against an established government
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

noun
1. a person who takes part in an armed rebellion against the constituted authority (especially in the hope of improving [their] conditions)
2. a member of an irregular armed force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment [syn: guerrilla]

WordNet® 2.1, © 2005 Princeton University

These guys were well armed insurgents. Who cares what their wardrobe looked like, what sect they worshiped, or if they used western brand toilet paper. They were well armed, had an entrenched base of operation, and were bent on armed rebellion using guerrilla tactics as their ultimate goal. And the counterinsurgency kicked their butts. Classic counterinsurgency doctrine. Period. Take it or leave it.

[tequila]

They were well armed, had an entrenched base of operation, and were bent on armed rebellion using guerrilla tactics as their ultimate goal.

If you trust Sadrist and SCIRI officials, which is all we have to go on right now. They can't even agree on who they killed, so how do they know what they were up to?


And the counterinsurgency kicked their butts. Classic counterinsurgency doctrine. Period. Take it or leave it.

Leaving it, thanks. Counterinsurgency doctrine? These guys weren't beat with counterinsurgency doctrine. They were annihilated by American tanks and air support, after nearly overwhelming the Iraqi forces sent against them. In other words, pretty much a straight-up conventional battle.

[Culpeper]

You need to look at the recommended reading list concerning counterinsurgency. Starting with "Counterinsurgency Warfare", By David Galula. Part of military counterinsurgency doctrine consists of denying an insurgency a safe base of operation. This was accomplished. Part of counterinsurgency doctrine is to attack insurgents in their safe havens. Forcing to find another safe haven somewhere else. And the process repeats itself with each insurgency base destroyed resulting in less resources and bases from which to operate from. The battle itself may have been conventional. The entire conflict is complex and requires uncoventional tactics overall. This is basic counterinsurgency knowledge. Counterinsurgency warfare is unconventional warfare. And again, this is basic knowledge one should know. And the book I suggested takes less than a day to absorb. I'm not trying to insult you. It is very obvious that you have a misunderstanding of counterinsurgency. All your arguments have been geared towards defending the objectives of an insurgency and flat out discrediting basic counterinsurgency tactic.

[Uboat509]

Doctrinal arguments aside, what credible evididence do we have that the people killed were, in fact, bent on armed rebellion? I have not seen it yet.

SFC W

[tequila]

More info from LATIMES (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-village31jan31,0,1250193,print.story?coll=la-home-headlines)and McClatchy (http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington//16582696.htm)on the ground near the battle.

LATIMES:


An unauthorized hourlong walk Tuesday through the bombed compound of a religious cult called Heaven's Army revealed provocative clues about the group, which was decimated Sunday in a 24-hour U.S. and Iraqi offensive that authorities say left 263 alleged members dead and 210 injured. Nearly 400 members were arrested, an Iraqi defense official said.

Iraqi officials said the obscure messianic group was poised to launch an attack on Shiite clergy and holy sites in Najaf in the belief that it would hasten the dawn of a new age. Iraqi officials said they got wind of the plan and attempted to investigate but were attacked by the group's gunmen in a battle that also killed five Iraqi troops and two U.S. soldiers, who died when their helicopter crashed.

The bulk of the damage to the group's base was inflicted by U.S. airstrikes, which turned the tide of a fierce ground battle that pitted the fighters against Iraqi troops backed by U.S. forces.

Iraqi officials have released scant new details about the composition and aims of the group. Mohammed Askari, a spokesman for the Defense Ministry, said foreign Arabs were among those slain and captured. He declined to provide more than basic casualty figures.

But the camp itself, amid lush groves of eucalyptus and palm trees, offered a trove of details about the members of Heaven's Army.

They had plenty of food. Each fighter had his own supply of chocolate and biscuits. They were prepared: A 6-foot dirt berm and an equally deep trench surrounded the 50-acre compound.

They were well organized. Living in at least 30 concrete-block buildings, all the fighters had identification badges. The group published its own books and a newspaper. The members apparently were enamored with their leader, a charismatic man in his 30s named Dhyaa Abdul-Zahra, whose likeness adorned the newspaper.

And they were well armed and ready for battle. High-powered machine guns, antiaircraft rockets, mortars, rocket-propelled grenades and late-model pickup trucks with mounted guns were scattered around the eight farms that make up the compound, about 10 miles north of Najaf.

A wooden platform on a tree served as a sniper's perch. The would-be shooter lay dead on the ground by the tree trunk.

"Without the bombings of the Americans we would have remained for two weeks unable to penetrate," said an Iraqi soldier, who led a Times correspondent and other Iraqi journalists through the compound.

None of the fighters wore uniforms. They wrapped black-checkered scarves around their necks and wore running suits or flowing dishdasha robes. Their bodies were contorted and burned from the bombing campaign. A few were blown to pieces. The fighters included young boys as well as middle-aged men. Some apparently held ordinary day jobs — one slain fighter, Ahmad Mohsen Kadhem, 31, had an identification card in his wallet showing he was authorized to carry weapons as a guard for a nearby company, the government-owned State Organization for Cereals.

Arabic readers described the articles in the group's eight-page newspaper, the Statement, as little more than religiously inflected gibberish, with made-up words and references to "manifestations and sightings" of Imam Mahdi, the last in a line of Shiite Muslim saints.

A book found at the complex, called "Heaven's Judge," also bearing the picture of Abdul-Zahra, dismisses the teaching of Shiite Muslims as well as Sunnis. "The Shiites are misled," says the book, which rebuffs central tenets of Shiite theology.

"The house of the prophet Muhammad has adopted a path using signs to point to heavenly facts, a method for considering the order of secrets," it adds, in statements that perplexed both Shiites and Sunnis who read it.

McClatchy:


Many contradictions remained unexplained. A neighbor of the cult compound, Mohan Hameed, said the religious group began moving into the small farming area 5 miles north of Najaf 16 or 17 years ago. On Monday, the provincial governor had said that the group bought the farmland only several months ago.

McClatchy Newspapers special correspondent Qassim Zein entered the compound Tuesday afternoon, more than 24 hours after the battle had ended. It still had the look of a brutal killing ground.

"I have seen something I never imagined I would see in my life," Zein said in a cell-phone call from the area.

Corpses lay everywhere, contorted in death, he reported. "I cannot count the bodies," he said. The remains of three children and six women were among the uncollected dead, he added.

Zein said he toured two workshops: one was a car-bomb facility, the other a chop shop to tear down cars. Hameed, a date farmer, said his cult neighbors sometimes had been arrested and imprisoned during the Saddam years for criminal activity, including car theft.

The compound had a beauty salon for the women who lived there, Zein found. New air conditioners kept the building cool, and outside was a rarity: a large swimming pool. Expensive furniture was everywhere.

Zein said a police official told him that a search of the compound uncovered $8 million to $10 million in American currency. U.S. Army officials took the money along with computers and documents, he told Zein.

A spokesman for U.S. forces referred questions to the Iraqi government. A State Department spokesman had no comment.

Zein counted more than 60 vehicles, including pickups and sedans. Another four large trucks were thought to have hauled weapons.

Hameed said that when the cult had first moved in, its members told him they were fleeing tribal disputes in Babil province. Aside from the occasional brush with criminal authorities, "they were always on good terms with the residents of the area. They never bothered anyone," Hameed said.

Activity picked up after the American-led invasion in 2003, he said. More visitors arrived, staying overnight. And the cult members drove new cars. When asked, they claimed to have contracts with the American base in Najaf, Hameed said. They also became more religious.

At a news conference, Maj. Hussain Muhammed of the Iraqi army said officials continued to find weapons at the compound. "It is enough for a whole army," he said.

[marct]

It sounds like a fairly standard Messianic cult structure with apocalyptic overtones. From what little I've read, they have popped up from time to time within Islam, mainly as Shiite offshoots. The concentration on "signs and wonders" is also quite normal for that type of group. It also sounds like they probably have some type of "elect" theology, similar to some of the early Gnostic groups. As an analogue, check out the Branch Davidians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidian).

The tricky thing with groups like this is that they may well have a belief that "salvation" (the return of the messiah, the mahdi, the hidden imam, etc.) must be brought about by human action. Basically, it's a highly magical mind-set that can cause immense destruction in order to complete the required "ritual", and yet can appear to be peaceful until the signs are in place to start that ritual.

Marc