Police in the US Kill Citizens at Over 70 Times the Rate of Other First-World Nations

[blueblood]

Let’s look at our immediate neighbors to the north, Canada. The total number of citizens killed by law enforcement officers in the year 2014, was 14; that is 78 times less people than the US.

If we look at the United Kingdom, 1 person was killed by police in 2014 and 0 in 2013. English police reportedly fired guns a total of three times in all of 2013, with zero reported fatalities.

From 2010 through 2014, there were four fatal police shootings in England, which has a population of about 52 million. By contrast, Albuquerque, N.M., with a population 1 percent the size of England’s, had 26 fatal police shootings in that same time period.

China, whose population is 4 and 1/2 times the size of the United States, recorded 12 killings by law enforcement officers in 2014.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-kill-citizens-70-times-rate-first-world-nations/

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Someone posted this on a different fora. I could be wrong but some members here are LEO in their respective countries. Just wanted to know the other side of the story.

Is it because of the constant threat of getting shot because of the increasing proliferation of guns or a result of increasing militarized LE and society in general?

Thanks.

[AdamG]

BB,

You might get a better response to this over at the Police One Forums, considering that they're the ones actually on the street.
http://www.policeone.com/police-forums/

If you do register and get a response, by all means post the thread URL here.

[davidbfpo]

Blueblood,

The issue you raise certainly in the USA have come to the foreground of late, although it is unclear whether with any impact.

I know the BBC News had an item comparing several nations, but not readly found now. This four-sided discussion may help:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32740523

Obviously I am more familiar with the UK situation. As you show death from shooting here is rare. Deaths in custody alas are not and fatal road traffic deaths involving the police - even if lower now - can arouse controversy. Outside London and airports the numbers of armed police are low. My old force regularly deployed eight officers each shift, to respond to incidents; larger numbers were available for planned operations.

It is exceptionally rare in England for the police to be fired upon, even rarer are exchanges of gunfire between the police and others.

That is completely at variance with the USA. There are many reasons for this, which I expect have been exacerbated since 9/11 with the belief in a constant terrorist threat and a perceived increase in police readiness to shoot.

Then when one reads this, you start to wonder:
Data collected by the Washington Post newspaper suggests that the number of people shot by US police is twice as high as official figures claim. Official statistics rely on self-reported figures from law enforcement agencies.They suggest about 400 people have been killed each year since 2008.

Link:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32740523

[Bob's World]

Numbers need to be normalized for size of population.

Also very important to note, is that "Suicide by Cop" is a very popular form of suicide in the US, in which case it is the police officer, not the dead civilian (they are all citizens) who is the victim.

Gun violence is a real problem in America; but equally it is the Second Amendment that protects the other nine components of the Bill of Rights that protects the American people from governmental abuses of power that are so prevalent in other societies. We have our problems, but a relative handful of gun deaths (compared to cars, cancer, stairs, etc) is a small price to pay for having a government that is deterred from abusing its power.

[slapout9]

Cops shooting people and not reporting it.......really! This is nothing but left wing gun grab, social Justis, let's embarrass America propaganda. Nothing but editorial pornography.

[davidbfpo]

Cops shooting people and not reporting it.......really! This is nothing but left wing gun grab, social Justis, let's embarrass America propaganda. Nothing but editorial pornography.

Slap,

Perhaps you see WaPo as fitting such a description. Personally I don't think the Wall Street Journal fits your words.

What did the WSJ report in December 2014:
A Wall Street Journal analysis of the latest data from 105 of the country’s largest police agencies found more than 550 police killings during those years were missing from the national tally or, in a few dozen cases, not attributed to the agency involved. The result: It is nearly impossible to determine how many people are killed by the police each year.
Link:http://www.wsj.com/articles/hundreds-of-police-killings-are-uncounted-in-federal-statistics-1417577504

Police-linked shootings like deaths in custody and deaths in police-related accidents can be an indicator of how the police perform their duties. They should not be ignored, indeed I would argue to do so is dangerous for the police and the public.

Back to WSJ, citing a law professor:
When cops are killed, there is a very careful account and there’s a national database..Why not the other side of the ledger?

All manner of reasons can be cited about data problems, the facts matter.

[slapout9]

David,
Article is behind a paywall. But everyone in the USA has to have a death certificate and a cause of death and must be reported to the Feds and should be tracked by Homeland Security for CT reason as I understand it, so how did this happen?. But as Bob said out of 330 million people that is statistically insignificant.

[davidbfpo]

David,
Article is behind a paywall. But everyone in the USA has to have a death certificate and a cause of death and must be reported to the Feds and should be tracked by Homeland Security for CT reason as I understand it, so how did this happen?. But as Bob said out of 330 million people that is statistically insignificant.

Slap,

Thanks the WSJ article - oddly here - was not behind a paywall and I assumed it was open access for all.:(

I appreciate data collection, especially one between so many agencies providing data to the FBI is fraught with problems. The WSJ and WaPo work suggests strongly that open source and FoI requests can generate a comprehensive picture.

I'll leave aside the DHS role; one which can be explained as removing data on "persons of interest", but also to take action to prevent the deceased's identity being used.

Factually true Bob's description of being 'statistically insignificant', but that is context and is not helpful. Even a former CIA Deputy Director has publicly commented on how IIRC "wrapped tight" police officers are, so one adjusts one's behaviour.

Major Marginal tweeted just after Ferguson a link to a PPT on how often the US public encounter the police and the chances of being IIRC arrested or worse, which showed how tiny the chances were.

[AdamG]

Gun violence is a real problem in America; .

The implied question is "who is shooting who?"

1) Wading into the statistics, often times you'll find that the victims are the result of urban pharmacological business disputes.

2) The other is statistical manipulation, to wit: the pearl-clutching mantra of "so many children being shot!" is negated when you find out the agenda-driven organization publishing that set of statistics considers "youths" those all the way up to the age of 25. :rolleyes: Return to Point 1, Rinse/Lather/Repeat.

3) Also, one of the tricks the urban pharmacological businessmen perpetrate is to keep their young offspring around them in an attempt to reduce the chances of things getting loud and lethal. That's why you see some poor little girl getting shot in the head, because her 'parents' had her out on the front porch at 22.30hrs (never mind the arrest records of the adults around her).

[Firn]

It is surprising, if not disturbing that something as killings are not properly put into a federal database, especially considering the big controversy.


As discussed before, violent crime has been trending strongly downward...

http://wallstreetflaneur.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Violent-Crime-Rates-Per-Capita2.png


Some information about officers killed in the line of duty. Thankfully has come down a great deal over the many years.

http://www.project.org/images/graphs/Law_Killed_by_Gun_1.jpg

http://33x5bs39d3jhnwvvr3uyk6zm.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/pix/2013/09/weapons-used-to-kill-police-officers.png


Sadly we lack a proper official database but for what it is worth a baseline graph.

http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/police%20involved%20killings.jpg


Obviously the last three are not adjusted for population. The one of the USA increase almost 50% since 1980 while the number of police per capita has roughly around 15% in the same timeframe.

[Firn]

So violent crimes more then halfed in the last 25 years, if it was reported in a roughly similar way.

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/ldah6rdp6ukvngoyqi1fcg.gif

If one does mention reported it is amazing to compared it with graphs like that...

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/_aofmj0eh0yfrcsddxpmtq.gif


I generally prefer very long timeframes as it gives you a far broader vision, however in some case one wants to detect trends. I just can repeat that sadly there is no proper FBI database so we are stuck with this baseline:


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/vd-vcjwR_aF73rL9QQAZ-9ctbNddCLoJf6k6Qi5B-l8HpKUEHd6tFmt9CU7M707f0NHg6izrY-UqlGREZHsb2OsaU81HU6sR962mf5RNmdMMUCAfgWxt5E_8E0aV y0SMgw

The increase in population and officers obviously softens that increase in the last ten years* but it is still surprising to see the in international comparision very high levels of police killings trending upwards during the last decade in the context of decreasing violent crimes and overall killings and specifically a lower number of killed police officers.

Keep in mind the words comparision and context as the police kills fewer per officer and overall capita then in the 'good old days' around 1980, if the reported stats are consistent. Still we are nowhere near the reduction in violent crime or police officers killed. While providing some answers such threads produces usually even more questions...

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*What about police tazers and cars?

[AdamG]

Anyone who appreciates Maskirovka (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b050674y) should embrace the increased rate, volume and shrillness with which bad news is spread by the media these days.

If you're not on Ground Zero and your sole source of information is the bleached blonde talking head interviewing the agenda-driven pencil-neck geek, then you're gonna perceive things differently.

[JarodParker]

First of all, the link provided by the original posted does not seem to be the most credible source. According to Wikipedia (the most credible of sources), the UK had one person killed by police each year 2010-2014, but the article has a disclaimer saying the list is incomplete. The wiki for UK police killed in the line of duty lists 5 officers for the same period. The poster states there were 14 police killings in Canada in 2014. However, wiki lists 21 deaths. The Canadian Officer Down Memorial page lists 3 officers feloniously killed in the line of duty. I don’t even know where to begin with the Chinese numbers. China might be a “first world nation” economically, but it doesn’t strike me as the ideal when it comes to government transparency and constitutional policing. I would think any data provided on Chinese government/citizen encounters is skewed one way or another. But I do commend their creativity in using the “police restraint stick.” And I suspect both the Chinese and Japanese incorporate some serious martial arts training for their police, which is practical for countries with strict gun control.

There are many factors at play here. First and foremost is the availability of guns. US police have to be alert not just against armed criminals but the average (otherwise law abiding) citizen who just had a bad day. Even in encounters where the citizen is not armed, the police by their mere presence are introducing guns into a potentially volatile situation. For instance, a police officer might feel comfortable walking into a high crime area unarmed and out of uniform, especially if he/she has some common sense and some people skills. Millions of people do that on a daily basis and most don’t end up dead. But it’s completely different when you have to go into the same area as “the police” armed and with the intent of enforcing the law. An unarmed subject could try to arm himself with the officer’s weapon – each year several officers are killed in the line of duty with their own weapons. Even in a purely physical struggle, an armed officer cannot lose the fight too much because he risks having his weapons taken.

So in the case of the UK, one could hypothesize, strict gun control leads to less perceived threat and much higher threshold for deadly force, so less shootings. In the case of Canada, gun control seems to be on par with the US. But there might be other factors such as population size, population density, level of criminality, drug use, presence of gangs and organized crime, geo-location, and etc. There might be cultural differences that are missing from the analysis. For instance, fraternities and sororities are ubiquitous on US college campuses, but they are not as common in Canada (and almost unheard of in the UK, Australian, Germany, China, etc). We also can’t underestimate the role our shared border with Mexico plays in terms of violent crimes tied to human and narco trafficking. If you consider the numbers I cited above, 3 officers were feloniously killed in Canada compared to 21 citizens who were killed by police. In the US, 51 officers were feloniously killed in 2014, compared to the 623 citizens listed in wiki. While the numbers are not proportionate, the ratio of officers killed to citizens killed is not as dramatic as taking the raw numbers of citizens killed by police.

One thing Canada has going for it socialized medicine. Please correct me if I’m wrong but I would think there is better mental health care and social service available in Canada than the US. A significant number of police killings involved people with mental health issues (both real and sometimes manufactured by the family after the fact in order to cash out from a lawsuit…Oh, Johnny was depressed when he was 14, so the officer shouldn’t have killed him even though he lunged at him with a knife). Municipalities all across the US have been dramatically slashing mental health services and assistance to the homeless for decades. Consequently these people are out on the streets, and with no one else stepping up, have become law enforcement’s problem. The 9th Circuit recently issued a ludicrous ruling saying actively armed and dangerous suspect with mental issues should have ADA rights. Dozens of cities and counties in California submitted a brief in protest. They argued they lacked the funding to care for these people, so they were forced to turn them out causing issues on the streets which the police have to deal with, sometimes with deadly results, leaving the officers and cities potentially liable. SCOTUS reversed the decision.

There are of course, differences in use of force policies and tactics between the US and Canada, but I’m not informed enough about the policies of the latter to discuss that in detail. I know Canadian officers can upholster their weapons and keep it at the ready but cannot point it at a subject until they are ready to shoot. Pointing results in a lot of paperwork.

Statistics for homicides, violent crimes, or the feloniously killing of officers could be deceiving, because they don’t take into account things like advances in modern medicine, body armor technology, and etc. Maybe the same could be said about the modern battlefield. I think an American soldier’s chances of recovering from a traumatic injury are better today than they were 20 years ago, but I don’t know if one could say the modern battlefield is safer. One might argue a smaller percentage of the population is inclined to violence these days, but that doesn’t mean those who are inclined are not more lethal than ever. There seems to be a higher proportion of the criminal element that is better trained, more informed and more determined that ever. Let’s also not forget the much dreaded CompStat and the cooking of the books by top brass when it comes to crime stats. In a reasonable society having official stats compiled by DOJ or some official entity would be great, but we can’t misuse that data or draw unfair conclusions from it. The bottom line is, every police use of force, deadly or not, has to be judged individually.


That is completely at variance with the USA. There are many reasons for this, which I expect have been exacerbated since 9/11 with the belief in a constant terrorist threat and a perceived increase in police readiness to shoot.
I don’t think the average US officer is too worried about terrorists. The biggest threat is the armed “common criminal.”

The public discourse on “the militarization of police” has been irrational because the public can’t make up its mind on what it wants. But I am glad to see the poster mentioned the “militarization of society in general”… and I would say more so of the criminal element. People are appalled when they see police departments equipped with rifles, Kevlar and armored vehicles, especially when you add color commentary by activists and the media. But anytime there is any type of stand-off or hostage situation, especially, if things go wrong, there is outrage that more wasn’t done and better equipment wasn’t used. One would think this argument was settled by the North Hollywood Shootout in 1997. On the other hand, I can see why some small podunk department with three officers might not need an MRAP… since they might be able to get by with a mutual-aid arrangement with the state or a nearby large metro. But the communities have to be ok with having less (and what that might entail), and that MRAP being sold for scrap, given/sold to another country. To try to turn every police officer into Andy Griffith and every force into Mayberry PD is unrealistic. At the same time, the police have to be smart about how they use their equipment.

In summary, trying to compare the US stats with other countries is like comparing apples, to cars, to water.

[AdamG]

In summary, trying to compare the US stats with other countries is like comparing apples, to cars, to water.

You keep talkin sense like that and the Ministry of Re-Education is going to be knocking on your door.

[JarodParker]

You keep talkin sense like that and the Ministry of Re-Education is going to be knocking on your door.

"No activist left behind!" That's been my motto.

[davidbfpo]

An interesting argument and one that from "over here" could be a contributory factor to the issues raised here.

Here is a key passage:
Under this warrior worldview, officers are locked in intermittent and unpredictable combat with unknown but highly lethal enemies. As a result, officers learn to be afraid. That isn’t the word used in law enforcement circles, of course. Vigilant, attentive, cautious, alert, or observant are the terms that appear most often in police publications. But make no mistake, officers don’t learn to be vigilant, attentive, cautious, alert, and observant just because it’s fun. They do so because they are afraid. Fear is ubiquitous in law enforcement.

Link:http://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/law-enforcements-warrior-problem/

[AdamG]

An interesting argument and one that from "over here" could be a contributory factor to the issues raised here.

Here is a key passage:

Link:http://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/law-enforcements-warrior-problem/

About the author -

Seth served as an officer with the Tallahassee Police Department for five years. In that time, he trained other officers in report writing, helped create policies to govern the use of new technologies, earned multiple instructor and operator certifications, and taught personal safety and self-defense courses in the community.

http://www.law.sc.edu/faculty/stoughton/

[blueblood]

Thanks for the replies guys.

@JarodParker,

1) The link was not posted here for its authenticity but because of its provocative nature.

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A

I would like to bring your attention to 06.30 and then on. I am not an American so I may be able to understand it completely but why does a place like Doraville, Georgia, population of 8500 requires a military grade tracked APC? The argument that they were going to get destroyed anyway is not a good one. US Armed forces dump lots of working equipment every year because it no longer passes the benchmark for service. US will be in lot of trouble if they started giving A-10s to police forces. Just kidding.

NYPD has roughly the same budget as the military of Ukraine and more than Greece, IIRC. Do you think it is justified?


3) One of the graphs above suggests that while crime is all time low especially since the 80s, illegal immigration reached peak in 2007. What do you think of that?

4) Racial tensions related to police shooting unarmed African Americans creates a horrible picture of US police forces across the world. One example is particularly chilling. A 74 old former insurance executive Robert Bates shoots an already restrained man. What are your opinions on that?

.................................................. ..................................

Again I am not trying to be hostile but just trying to pick the brains of people who probably have a different point of view than MSM.

[JarodParker]

1) It would be absurd to discuss a conclusion that is not based on facts. How can it be thought provoking, if it’s not accurate? What if it the author just said “police in the US kill citizens at 1000 the rate…” What if he said, “100% of police officer are members of the KKK?” You have to have facts to be able to have an intelligent dialogue about something as complex as this. I pointed out some inaccuracies in the data and gave you some context and possibly alternative matrices for comparison. If you’re just posting inflammatory links, then you’re just trolling.

2) Sorry, I didn’t watch the video. Stewart, Colbert and Oliver are great comedians, but these shows usually don’t present a balanced view on issues. It’s not gospel just because John Oliver says so. If something they bring up strikes a chord with you, then I suggest you research the matter for yourself.
Please read my previous response carefully. I said…

I can see why some small podunk department with three officers might not need an MRAP
I have never been to “Doraville, Georgia, population of 8500” so I don’t presume to know what their law enforcement needs are, but it sounds like the type of “podunk” place that might not need its own tracked APC. But armored vehicles (not necessarily tracked) are a part of the police toolkit used in hostage and barricaded suspect type of situations. The US from time to time has incidents where heavily armed bad guys get into shootouts with police. And the police need these vehicles for cover, to evacuate casualties, etc. However, in my humble opinion every department does not need to get such a vehicle when they could get by with mutual-aid. A mutual-aid agreement is a pact between various neighboring municipalities to share resources (such as armored vehicles and extra officers) during emergencies. So in theory Doraville and a few of its neighbors could sign such an agreement with the county. But that is something each community has to decide for itself. If the good people of Doraville decide to forgo the APC, then they have to be ok with the consequences of that (whatever that might be). Please look up North Hollywood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) I think this should be clear enough.

If the NYPD has the same budget as the military of Ukraine, maybe it’s time we beef up the NYPD budget. Because we’ve all seen how well the Ukrainians are doing. Again, examine underlying causes when you see random stats. NYC population is 8 million, Greece population is 10 million. There are ~50,000 officers in New York and 109,000 military personal in Greece. Compare population densities. Better yet compare the economies. The biggest cost for police/fire agencies in the US is personnel. So is it unthinkable each NYPD officer (with the cost of living in NYC) could be making twice as much as a Greek service person? Keep in mind this is an oversimplification. You’re thinking, “but the Greeks have military equipment.” Well, the NYPD has a ton of facilities, vehicles, helicopters, IT infrastructure, etc. But why are you even comparing the NYPD to the Greek military. It’s meaningless. Apples to cars.

3) That’s good news. I hope it continues to decrease.

4) Based on the limited open source information I have, it looked like an accident. It is unfortunate the man lost his life, but accidents happen. There are even occasional blue-on-blue shootings, with some resulting in fatalities. There was recently a police officer that was shot and killed by his colleague during the execution of a search warrant in Northern California. The legal system will sort out Mr. Bates in due time.

[AdamG]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Again I am not trying to be hostile but just trying to pick the brains of people who probably have a different point of view than MSM.

Are you truly asking, or perhaps tempted to bully pulpit?



4) Racial tensions related to police shooting unarmed African Americans creates a horrible picture of US police forces across the world.

You're aware that there are several groups in America (some quite well-funded) who make it a point to travel to incident sites and agitate mobs into acts of violence?

That leads right into one of the phenomenons of the MSM - when the facts contradict their initial leaps-of-logic and rush to play the blame game on their usual targets, then the topic gets flushed down the Memory Hole so fast that it would make George Orwell's head spin if he were still alive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_hole

You will NEVER see anywhere near the column inches/airtime minutes when the poor urban youth turns out to be completely, totally guilty of perpetrating a criminally stupid act that precipitated his own death - that would contradict the narrative.

The American media is populated by a significant majority of individuals who hold to what can best be described as "Progressive" political world-views, yet lack the maturity and morale compasses to divorce personal prejudices from their work products (and since they need to attract maximum attention to ensure maximum ad revenues, sensationalist nonsense sells).

You need to appreciate these Americanisms to distill the facts out of what counts as Open Source here.

That said, American Law Enforcement bears their own crosses for the current state of affairs - starting with small things like calling Citizens "civilians" (and thus implying a state of war between Law Enforcement and everyone else).

[blueblood]

1) It would be absurd to discuss a conclusion that is not based on facts. How can it be thought provoking, if it’s not accurate? What if it the author just said “police in the US kill citizens at 1000 the rate…” What if he said, “100% of police officer are members of the KKK?” You have to have facts to be able to have an intelligent dialogue about something as complex as this. I pointed out some inaccuracies in the data and gave you some context and possibly alternative matrices for comparison. If you’re just posting inflammatory links, then you’re just trolling.

Why is that absurd? If someone is deliberately propagating half truths I have two choices, take his/her word for it or ask people on the ground for the actual truth. I chose latter. If someone had written that all cops are KKK would you not have told me that its simply not true.

And sorry, trolling people who know this stuff better than me is definitely not my thing.

Considering that I haven't spent a single second on American soil, it should very well point out that my sources are second hand and biased.


2) Sorry, I didn’t watch the video. Stewart, Colbert and Oliver are great comedians, but these shows usually don’t present a balanced view on issues. It’s not gospel just because John Oliver says so. If something they bring up strikes a chord with you, then I suggest you research the matter for yourself.
Please read my previous response carefully. I said…


I get very filtered news about US i.e. international relations etc from the local channels and mostly talk shows from American channels, i.e. your Amanpours and Zakarias etc, which are mind numbing, especially Zakaria. Because of a near 12 hour time difference, live news is not particularly feasible. Good morning America is not something you would want to see at dinner time.

So yes, while I do not take Colbert or Oliver or Maher's words to be gospels I do like their shows and agree with them on several matters including the video posted above. If you haven't watched the video then don't just disagree for the sake of it.


I have never been to “Doraville, Georgia, population of 8500” so I don’t presume to know what their law enforcement needs are, but it sounds like the type of “podunk” place that might not need its own tracked APC. But armored vehicles (not necessarily tracked) are a part of the police toolkit used in hostage and barricaded suspect type of situations. The US from time to time has incidents where heavily armed bad guys get into shootouts with police. And the police need these vehicles for cover, to evacuate casualties, etc. However, in my humble opinion every department does not need to get such a vehicle when they could get by with mutual-aid. A mutual-aid agreement is a pact between various neighboring municipalities to share resources (such as armored vehicles and extra officers) during emergencies. So in theory Doraville and a few of its neighbors could sign such an agreement with the county. But that is something each community has to decide for itself. If the good people of Doraville decide to forgo the APC, then they have to be ok with the consequences of that (whatever that might be). Please look up North Hollywood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) I think this should be clear enough.


I could be wrong but isn't dealing with the heavily armed bad guys is exactly the job of a well armed (not heavily) police force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Sikh_temple_shooting

Not exactly heavily armed but still....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Culwell_Center_attack

I don't know about Americans but civilians in general are not particularly fond of APCs parking next to their family cars at signals. And I have seen the footage of North Hollywood shootout plenty of times. Should that be the template for entire police forces across the country. That APC had it been in Detroit or Baltimore would have made much more sense than Doraville.


If the NYPD has the same budget as the military of Ukraine, maybe it’s time we beef up the NYPD budget. Because we’ve all seen how well the Ukrainians are doing. Again, examine underlying causes when you see random stats. NYC population is 8 million, Greece population is 10 million. There are ~50,000 officers in New York and 109,000 military personal in Greece. Compare population densities. Better yet compare the economies. The biggest cost for police/fire agencies in the US is personnel. So is it unthinkable each NYPD officer (with the cost of living in NYC) could be making twice as much as a Greek service person? Keep in mind this is an oversimplification. You’re thinking, “but the Greeks have military equipment.” Well, the NYPD has a ton of facilities, vehicles, helicopters, IT infrastructure, etc. But why are you even comparing the NYPD to the Greek military. It’s meaningless. Apples to cars.


If you cannot see the fallacy of your argument that the higher amount of financial resources being spent on a police force which by definition is for policing than a much larger military then perhaps you are right that it is apples and cars.

If you think that a Bell 412 and a F-16, a patrol boat and an armed frigate and a Bearcat and a Leo-2 are perfectly compatible examples of funding requirements then my apologies to you.

Indian Border Security Force while technically still a police force operates more than 100 105mm howitzers, 120mm mortars and MANPADS. If rumours are to be believed then 105mm will be replaced by 155mm units and a small number (few hundred) of Spike AT missiles will be acquired as well. Difference between them and NYPD is that NYPD don't engage Pakistan army in artillery duels on a day to day basis.


3) That’s good news. I hope it continues to decrease.


Me too. But isn't this contrary to the whole Mexican gangs thing. Not that there are no Mexican gangs or the crimes they commit but that crime rate is inversely proportional to the illegal immigration. At least this what I gathered.


4) Based on the limited open source information I have, it looked like an accident. It is unfortunate the man lost his life, but accidents happen. There are even occasional blue-on-blue shootings, with some resulting in fatalities. There was recently a police officer that was shot and killed by his colleague during the execution of a search warrant in Northern California. The legal system will sort out Mr. Bates in due time.

Kind sir, you are missing the forest for the trees. A 74 year old man with no prior LE experience should not be a part of police force least of all to be armed and on a stake out.

[blueblood]

Are you truly asking, or perhaps tempted to bully pulpit?


I simply believe that best way to learn the truth is straight from the horse's mouth. If I have a opinion about something, should I not at least bother to check the validity of my opinion?

If I knew any African Americans I would have asked them some hard questions too. You are free to ask me the same.



You're aware that there are several groups in America (some quite well-funded) who make it a point to travel to incident sites and agitate mobs into acts of violence?

That leads right into one of the phenomenons of the MSM - when the facts contradict their initial leaps-of-logic and rush to play the blame game on their usual targets, then the topic gets flushed down the Memory Hole so fast that it would make George Orwell's head spin if he were still alive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_hole


I am very familiar with these kind of groups and MSM phenomenon associated with it. Here, in this part of the world, ironically these kind of groups are mostly funded by US.:wry:


You will NEVER see anywhere near the column inches/airtime minutes when the poor urban youth turns out to be completely, totally guilty of perpetrating a criminally stupid act that precipitated his own death - that would contradict the narrative.


That's because the news of just another black teen committing crime is not exactly going to make you (MSM) rich.


The American media is populated by a significant majority of individuals who hold to what can best be described as "Progressive" political world-views, yet lack the maturity and morale compasses to divorce personal prejudices from their work products (and since they need to attract maximum attention to ensure maximum ad revenues, sensationalist nonsense sells).


I disagree. For a country as young as US (not in literal sense) is abnormally conservative and riddled with preconceived and severely outdated notions of social and religious norms.

For all the absolutely superb things Americans managed to accomplish in the last century, getting rid of the old world concepts is not one of them. Hence, I am really fascinated by America and its people. Just one eg. Dr. Ben Carson. I wish I had even a fraction of his accomplishments under my belt but I don't. OTOH, I also don't believe that earth is 5000 years old.

You see what I am getting at.


You need to appreciate these Americanisms to distill the facts out of what counts as Open Source here.

That said, American Law Enforcement bears their own crosses for the current state of affairs - starting with small things like calling Citizens "civilians" (and thus implying a state of war between Law Enforcement and everyone else).

Just one suggestion, would definitely appreciate you feedback on it. What if you are to charge State with LE not the city or county, i.e, California PD instead of LAPD. I have a list of pros, you can provide me with cons.

1) States can have active and a likely positive role in LE. A governor should be more susceptible to public pressure than a sheriff.

2) Recruitment will be a state matter i.e., because of comparatively less corruption in US, nepotism and illogical recruitment will be handled appropriately. I believe LE officers should not be elected but recruited through a standardized series of tests.

3) Transfer system that partially works in other countries like India. If LE is state matter, you can transfer or relocate any member of the police to different city if any kind of irregularity takes place. Increases accountability or so I have heard.

4) State funding will entail that funds are appropriately distributed. This way Baltimore gets an APC and Doraville gets bicycles.:p

5) Training will be standardized with varying levels as per necessity.


I know I am being too clever by half as Brig. Ray used to say but what the hell, time to live dangerously.:D

[JarodParker]

Why is that absurd? If someone is deliberately propagating half truths I have two choices, take his/her word for it or ask people on the ground for the actual truth. I chose latter. If someone had written that all cops are KKK would you not have told me that its simply not true. And sorry, trolling people who know this stuff better than me is definitely not my thing.
You actually have a third option, which is to look it up yourself. You could spend a fraction of the time researching these topics, and find the same information and not have to rely on others who have their own biases and agendas (like myself or Jon Stewart). There’s nothing wrong with asking, but check the accuracy of the data first. Discussions have to be based on facts. Otherwise why should anyone waste their time? It's been my experience, nobody engaged the crazy man yelling gibberish in front of the town square.


So yes, while I do not take Colbert or Oliver or Maher's words to be gospels I do like their shows and agree with them on several matters including the video posted above. If you haven't watched the video then don't just disagree for the sake of it.
I am a huge Jon Stewart fan, less so of Oliver, but I take his shtick with a grain of salt. While I haven’t seen the Ferguson video, I have a good in which direction it is headed.


I could be wrong but isn't dealing with the heavily armed bad guys is exactly the job of a well armed (not heavily) police force.
I don’t understand why we are still debating APCs in Doraville. The two incidents you cited are active shooter incidents that were over in a flash. Not every incident plays out the same way. Police agencies have to “hope for the best and plan for the worst.” Just because the Spartans held the pass with 300 people (I know actual numbers are many times that), that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have used more men or that future operations have to be restricted to 300. Or because Col John Ripley blew up the Dong Ha bridge by himself, it doesn’t mean we no longer need sappers or bridge blowing operations need to be restricted to one person. “Past results are not indicative of future performance.”
The police have a toolkit to respond to different types of law enforcement incident. Their tools include rifles, sniper rifles, cameras, armored vehicles, command post vehicles, helicopters, boats, bomb disposal vehicles, etc. They have to use the appropriate tool for the situation at hand.


I don't know about Americans but civilians in general are not particularly fond of APCs parking next to their family cars at signals. And I have seen the footage of North Hollywood shootout plenty of times. Should that be the template for entire police forces across the country. That APC had it been in Detroit or Baltimore would have made much more sense than Doraville.
Enough with the hyperbole. The police are not taking APCs out for joyrides. If these vehicles are on the streets then they are being transported somewhere or they are responding to an incident…and Joe Citizen should feel safe the good guys are on their way to do their duty. Police forces across the US have to be ready to handle heavily armed suspects including hostage takers. 50 years ago the M16 was used only by the military. At a certain point, when criminals started to outgun police, the military and local governments worked out a deal where they received surplus M16 from the DOD free of charge. Now the M16 or AR variant is standard issue to almost all police agencies. As the threat evolves so does the police posture.
You said that you thought it might be appropriate for Baltimore or Detroit to have APCs. Not everyone in the US would agree with you. Some would even argue that the police do not need rifles, or traffic cameras, or license plate readers, etc. Each community has to decide for itself.


If you cannot see the fallacy of your argument that the higher amount of financial resources being spent on a police force which by definition is for policing than a much larger military then perhaps you are right that it is apples and cars.
If you think that a Bell 412 and a F-16, a patrol boat and an armed frigate and a Bearcat and a Leo-2 are perfectly compatible examples of funding requirements then my apologies to you.
Indian Border Security Force while technically still a police force operates more than 100 105mm howitzers, 120mm mortars and MANPADS. If rumours are to be believed then 105mm will be replaced by 155mm units and a small number (few hundred) of Spike AT missiles will be acquired as well. Difference between them and NYPD is that NYPD don't engage Pakistan army in artillery duels on a day to day basis.

Personnel costs... personnel costs... personnel costs

What fallacy? Where is the rule that a US police department (in this case, the largest in the nation) has to have a smaller budget than country X? Why are we comparing police and military, especially when not accounting for things like pay scale which is related to standard of living? Why those countries and not Germany, North Korea, or South Sudan. What does one have to do with the other? One could also argue that policing a first world city is more expensive than guarding a third world nation.

The NYPD budget is not high because they are buying F-16s… like I said earlier it’s mostly personnel costs. The NYPD cops get paid more because the standard of living in the US is better than Greece, Ukraine or India. Starting salary for NYPD is $44k. Starting salary for San Francisco Police is $80k. What’s the starting salary for soldier in any of the other countries? It’s around $120 a year for a Greek conscript. Sergeants make $144 a year. For that price, I can rent a company of Greek soldiers and make them pass in review in front of my place every morning. We can’t pay the NYPD in rupees. The officers and much on NYC has a standard of living that is leaps and bounds better than the standard of living for the Indian Border Force. The salary of an Indian police officer or soldier wouldn’t even cover the NY officer's dry cleaning bill. So what they have howitzers? Like I said the NYPD has a ton of patrol cars, boats, helicopters, and other equipment. But again, most of the cost is personnel…which is determined by crime rate, size, population, population density, officer-to-citizen ratios, etc, and to a degree politics. The agency size is determined by the police chief, police commission, mayor, city council and sometimes citizens through ballot measures for new taxes. Democratic process.
If the police budget for a German city is higher than the Eritrean military, doesn’t it mean the Germans are corrupt or racist or over-policed? Or what if you compare Luxembourg to Sao Paulo, Brazil? NYC spends $2.3billion on waste disposal…that’s 2/3 of the Greek military spending. The budget for the NYFD with ~15k employees is $1.7billion. The budget for the NYPD which has ~50k employees is $4.8billion.

Kind sir, you are missing the forest for the trees. A 74 year old man with no prior LE experience should not be a part of police force least of all to be armed and on a stake out.
I don't want to defend Bates, but you are making some very inaccurate statements, not sure if deliberately. According to the news, he is claiming to have completed the training but some of that training has been called into question. He was also allegedly a police officer at another department at one point in his life. The courts will hear all the evidence and make a decision. Additionally, if there was any corruption on the part of the sheriff or any other public official, I suspect that will be dealt with in due time. Certainly, there will be civil consequences. Just fyi, as far as i know most agencies have a reserve officer/deputy program; there is no age limit, but there is strict requirements on training (which should be documented). Reserves can be assigned from routine paperwork to patrol based on the level of training they receive. Here's a story with a good ending...http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/07/justice/california-deputy-arrest/

Overall, you seems to be seeing cause-and-effect where it does not exist and drawing conclusions based on unrelated comparisons.
I’m sorry I’m not even going to fully address your most recent comment. Google is your friend…
Look up “California Highway Patrol” or [State Name]” Police/Troopers
Sheriffs are elected.
LE officers are not elected. They apply for the job and go through rigorous testing and screening. Police chiefs are usually appointed by mayor/city council.
Look up “California Commission on Peace Office Standards and Training (CA POST)”. Most states have similar agencies.

[AdamG]

I simply believe that best way to learn the truth is straight from the horse's mouth. If I have a opinion about something, should I not at least bother to check the validity of my opinion?

If I knew any African Americans I would have asked them some hard questions too. You are free to ask me the same.

Considering the sheer numbers of Indian police and their human rights issues, you're living in a glass house.


Each state/ union territory has its own separate police force. In addition, there are central police organisations set up by the union government for specialised work. The total strength of the state/union territory police forces on 1.1.2003 in the country was 1, 468,776. In addition, the strength of the five central para-military organisations alone was 601,328.4k. The combined strength of state and central police is about 2.2 millions http://www.humanrightsinitiative.org/programs/aj/police/papers/gpj/police_accountability_in_india.pdf

*snip*

I know I am being too clever by half

I also noticed after politely pointing to where you'd get the best primary source information, you completely ignored my suggestion. Afraid of the Lion's Den? (That's a rhetorical question, we already know the answer).


BB,

You might get a better response to this over at the Police One Forums, considering that they're the ones actually on the street.
http://www.policeone.com/police-forums/

If you do register and get a response, by all means post the thread URL here.

[blueblood]

Considering the sheer numbers of Indian police and their human rights issues, you're living in a glass house.

http://www.humanrightsinitiative.org/programs/aj/police/papers/gpj/police_accountability_in_india.pdf

*snip*

Why would I deny that? Did I somehow presented Indian police to be the perfect example? Do you wish to know the ground reality of Indian police forces?

Many members here have served and I didn't and that alone puts me far down the list. So no rather being courteous to the people who did something I won't be able to do. I think being respected is not something you are good at.


I also noticed after politely pointing to where you'd get the best primary source information, you completely ignored my suggestion. Afraid of the Lion's Den? (That's a rhetorical question, we already know the answer).Lion's den? I will register, ask them something and they will do what exactly? Confess that shooting unarmed black men in the back is abhorring.

Afraid of what, getting shot via internet?

[blueblood]

You actually have a third option, which is to look it up yourself. You could spend a fraction of the time researching these topics, and find the same information and not have to rely on others who have their own biases and agendas (like myself or Jon Stewart). There’s nothing wrong with asking, but check the accuracy of the data first. Discussions have to be based on facts. Otherwise why should anyone waste their time? It's been my experience, nobody engaged the crazy man yelling gibberish in front of the town square.

You are right.

1) Police shot someone - Right

2) Someone died - Right

3) Were the numbers correct - Wrong

All I learned that you are highly defensive and have consistently refrained from calling a spade a spade that yes police are repeatedly messing up. Sometimes deliberately and sometimes accidentally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encounter_killings_by_police

They were right most of the time but they were also wrong on many occasions. Many of them were staged i.e. shooting a suspect after informally arresting him and some were fake i.e. politically motivated.

If you think I am some socialist American basher then you are wrong. I have family in the states. They love the police and I have family in India who are the police that includes my maternal grandfather(deceased), my aunt and uncle.


I am a huge Jon Stewart fan, less so of Oliver, but I take his shtick with a grain of salt. While I haven’t seen the Ferguson video, I have a good in which direction it is headed.


Jon Oliver being on the HBO gives him a lot of immunity that Stewart doesn't enjoy. You don't get to see huge corporates being pummeled to ground that often anywhere else and that I think is his biggest USP.


I don’t understand why we are still debating APCs in Doraville. The two incidents you cited are active shooter incidents that were over in a flash. Not every incident plays out the same way. Police agencies have to “hope for the best and plan for the worst.” Just because the Spartans held the pass with 300 people (I know actual numbers are many times that), that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have used more men or that future operations have to be restricted to 300. Or because Col John Ripley blew up the Dong Ha bridge by himself, it doesn’t mean we no longer need sappers or bridge blowing operations need to be restricted to one person. “Past results are not indicative of future performance.”
The police have a toolkit to respond to different types of law enforcement incident. Their tools include rifles, sniper rifles, cameras, armored vehicles, command post vehicles, helicopters, boats, bomb disposal vehicles, etc. They have to use the appropriate tool for the situation at hand.


Enough with the hyperbole. The police are not taking APCs out for joyrides. If these vehicles are on the streets then they are being transported somewhere or they are responding to an incident…and Joe Citizen should feel safe the good guys are on their way to do their duty. Police forces across the US have to be ready to handle heavily armed suspects including hostage takers. 50 years ago the M16 was used only by the military. At a certain point, when criminals started to outgun police, the military and local governments worked out a deal where they received surplus M16 from the DOD free of charge. Now the M16 or AR variant is standard issue to almost all police agencies. As the threat evolves so does the police posture.
You said that you thought it might be appropriate for Baltimore or Detroit to have APCs. Not everyone in the US would agree with you. Some would even argue that the police do not need rifles, or traffic cameras, or license plate readers, etc. Each community has to decide for itself.



Agreed with the constantly evolving threat but this has to stop somewhere. The APC and Doraville is an example of where things are headed. Things should not be the way.


The NYPD budget is not high because they are buying F-16s… like I said earlier it’s mostly personnel costs. The NYPD cops get paid more because the standard of living in the US is better than Greece, Ukraine or India.

Never realized that Greece is a third world country.


Starting salary for NYPD is $44k. Starting salary for San Francisco Police is $80k. What’s the starting salary for soldier in any of the other countries? It’s around $120 a year for a Greek conscript. Sergeants make $144 a year. For that price, I can rent a company of Greek soldiers and make them pass in review in front of my place every morning. We can’t pay the NYPD in rupees.

Would you like to share a source for that.

You should try rupees in India ofcourse. Today I paid Rs 600 for 10 kg and Rs 130 for 1 kg for two different kinds of basmati rice. The most expensive thing I bought today was a pack of cigarettes. And my monthly cell phone bill is Rs 210.:p


The officers and much on NYC has a standard of living that is leaps and bounds better than the standard of living for the Indian Border Force.
The salary of an Indian police officer or soldier wouldn’t even cover the NY officer's dry cleaning bill.

You are right. India is dirt poor and we all live in mud huts. So much for the "research it yourself" before typing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adarsh_Housing_Society_scam

Only example with a wiki page I could find. Organizations like BSF have their own housing, ration & stores and mess system. If they go by army's template then the the ranks do not pay for housing, electricity and get highly subsidized rations and mess and liqour.

So yes, can't afford the dry cleaning tab.


If the police budget for a German city is higher than the Eritrean military, doesn’t it mean the Germans are corrupt or racist or over-policed? Or what if you compare Luxembourg to Sao Paulo, Brazil? NYC spends $2.3billion on waste disposal…that’s 2/3 of the Greek military spending. The budget for the NYFD with ~15k employees is $1.7billion. The budget for the NYPD which has ~50k employees is $4.8billion.


You realize that Germany is not as good an example as you think it is.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/02/19/germanys-army-is-so-under-equipped-that-it-used-broomsticks-instead-of-machine-guns/


I don't want to defend Bates, but you are making some very inaccurate statements, not sure if deliberately. According to the news, he is claiming to have completed the training but some of that training has been called into question. He was also allegedly a police officer at another department at one point in his life. The courts will hear all the evidence and make a decision. Additionally, if there was any corruption on the part of the sheriff or any other public official, I suspect that will be dealt with in due time. Certainly, there will be civil consequences. Just fyi, as far as i know most agencies have a reserve officer/deputy program; there is no age limit, but there is strict requirements on training (which should be documented). Reserves can be assigned from routine paperwork to patrol based on the level of training they receive. Here's a story with a good ending...http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/07/justice/california-deputy-arrest/


Look up “California Highway Patrol” or [State Name]” Police/Troopers
Sheriffs are elected.
LE officers are not elected. They apply for the job and go through rigorous testing and screening. Police chiefs are usually appointed by mayor/city council.
Look up “California Commission on Peace Office Standards and Training (CA POST)”. Most states have similar agencies.

Why would anyone defend Bates but still some people do and no I am doing anything deliberately except seeing you skirting around the age issue.

But you were right about the prior experience.

Bates became a reserve deputy in 2008 and served as a police officer for one year from 1964 to 1965.

http://heavy.com/news/2015/04/robert-bates-tulsa-reserve-deputy-sheriff-arrested-charged-manslaughter-shooting-eric-harris-oklahoma-accident-video-volunteer-cop-insurance/

I am harping 73 years old and you keep hearing 30. Age my friend age.

.................................................. .............................................

You conveniently cherry picked an example of an unrelated agency when you and I are talking about the Sheriff system in US.

Distinctive in law enforcement in the United States, sheriffs are usually elected.

Of the 50 U.S. states, 48 have sheriffs. The two that do not are Alaska (which has no counties), and Connecticut (which has no county governments and has state marshals instead of sheriffs)

Sheriffs are elected to four-year terms in 42 states, two-year terms in two states (New Hampshire and Arkansas), a three-year term in one state (New Jersey) and a six-year term in one state (Massachusetts).[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheriffs_in_the_United_States

[JarodParker]

A person who has never stepped foot in the US, doesn't have any law enforcement experience and can't accept new information... The US is waiting for your arrival, so you can fix our broke system of law enforcement. Until then, live long and prosper.

[blueblood]

A person who has never stepped foot in the US, doesn't have any law enforcement experience and can't accept new information... The US is waiting for your arrival, so you can fix our broke system of law enforcement. Until then, live long and prosper. Or to paraphrase Limp Bizkit, "Keep trollin', trollin', trollin'... "

While some members replied genuinely and I thanked them for it, you carried on with your rhetoric and skirting. Lets see the pearls of wisdom you dropped.


One could also argue that policing a first world city is more expensive than guarding a third world nation.


The officers and much on NYC has a standard of living that is leaps and bounds better than the standard of living for the Indian Border Force. The salary of an Indian police officer or soldier wouldn’t even cover the NY officer's dry cleaning bill.


Sheriffs are elected. LE officers are not elected.


So my sincerest thanks to you and goodbye.

[davidbfpo]

I've been off SWC for two days and now notice that the tone and words in some recent posts are - simply - not how we conduct ourselves. SWC is known for respecting each other's viewpoints, not what is here.

Stay calm and carry on.

[gute]

I agree with Bob's World that we do in fact have a great deal of gun violence compared to others, but it is a necessary problem. I came on with the Feds in 1992, right about the time there was a shift in tactical training across the country. Speed, surprise and violence of action was thing. At least for my agency this was a response to the drug problems and the associated violence. Much of law enforcement was outgunned for a time. With the War on Drugs came a ton of money to local and state law enforcement and who doesn't want cool gear.

Departments having APCs and MRAPS and such isn't a big deal to me if it is being used for high risk types of operations conducted by SWAT teams. In a lot of places SWAT is being used for most search warrants due to liability. There are local drug task forces out where I work who are not allowed to serve basic dope warrants. Nope, they gotta bring out LAVs and everyone has a long gun. The issue with police weapons isn't a big deal to me either because I believe police having ARs is just the evolution of the firearm.

I also think police in the U.S. are discouraged from going hands on with people - that to is a liability. Broken bones, choke holds, torn this and torn that.

Another thing and this is obviously my opinion. There are a lot of mouthy a-holes out there who are just plain stuck on stupid.

But, the biggest factor in the end is training - IMO.

[ganulv]

Another thing and this is obviously my opinion. There are a lot of mouthy a-holes out there who are just plain stuck on stupid.

This seems to go both ways.

[gute]

Yep, goes both ways.

[davidbfpo]

Note the author is a WaPO journalist, working in London and not a British police officer saying do this:
...experts say the way British bobbies are trained, commanded and vigorously scrutinized may offer US police forces a useful blueprint for bringing down the rate of deadly violence and defusing some of the burning tension felt in cities from coast to coast.

The stats below give some context:http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article10316112.ece/alternates/w460/Brit-police.jpg
Link:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/what-can-us-triggerhappy-cops-learn-from-britains-gunless-police-10316119.html

[Bill Moore]

Blueblood,

We in the U.S. certainly have problems with our police, some due to bad policing, others due to social ills related to a prevailing drug culture, gangs, irresponsible media (right and left), and the confluence of numerous other issues. We can't deny we don't have policing issues due to statistics, the problem is perception. Some that perception is promoting by self serving scum like Al Sharpton who will never let facts get in the way of his agenda. While acknowleding that aspect, we also need to acknowledge the expectations for police behaviour are changing, and the police will have to adapt. Change will be difficult, but it will happen. New rules will restrict certain police behavior, then crime will increase, so rules will be adjusted resulting in a new normal. This is actually a sign of a healthy democracy where complex issues are hotly debated. The fact that someone lowered themselves far below their normal civil discourse to call you a troll just demonstrates how sensitive this topic is in the U.S.

[davidbfpo]

One of the better articles I've read on police shootings:http://bigstory.ap.org/article/a50856b229d8400aa2c0b8124242fdcf/former-cop-who-killed-shares-lessons-deadly-force

[ganulv]

One of the better articles I've read on police shootings:http://bigstory.ap.org/article/a50856b229d8400aa2c0b8124242fdcf/former-cop-who-killed-shares-lessons-deadly-force

That is a good one, thanks for passing it along. The following particularly caught my eye:


This spring, testifying at a U.S. Civil Rights Commission hearing on deadly force, one topic he discussed was "tactical positioning," a strategy in which officers keep a safe distance, unless there is imminent danger.

"Often times, officers find themselves in too close, too quickly, and they don't have any option other than to shoot their way out of it," Klinger says. "That's where I really think we fall down in American law enforcement."

He uses last year's police shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, as an example. Though he agrees that Officer Darren Wilson was justified in shooting Brown, he also says that shooting might have been avoided if Wilson had waited and called for backup.

I don’t want to paint with too broad a brush, as I know a couple of career officers who are quite adept at deescalation. And I know that anecdotes aren’t data, but in my experience it seems much more common for officers’ efforts to “control” a situation actually result in an escalation of the situation. I’m not saying that that is what typically happens, but I’ve seen it often enough as well as had it relayed to me second-hand to be confident that it’s far from uncommon.

[davidbfpo]

A short "broad brush" review of American policing by a criminologist, Professor Ronald Witzer (GWU) so not just about shootings; this is the most current thread on US LE.

It is available free via the latest issue of the 'The Criminlogist':http://www.asc41.com/criminologist.html

Or on the attachment (minus references).

[Firn]

The Washington Post had an opinion (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-iraq-i-raided-insurgents-in-virginia-the-police-raided-me/2015/07/24/2e114e54-2b02-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html) which gathered a surprising amount of positive responses.


Of course, officers’ safety is vital, and they’re entitled to defend themselves and the communities they serve. But they’re failing to see the connection between their aggressive postures and the hostility they’ve encountered in Ferguson, Mo., Baltimore and other communities. When you level assault rifles at protesters, you create animosity. When you kill an unarmed man on his own property while his hands are raised — as Fairfax County police did in 2013 — you sow distrust. And when you threaten to Taser a woman during a routine traffic stop (as happened to 28-year-old Sandra Bland, who died in a Texas jail this month), you cultivate a fear of police. This makes policing more dangerous for everyone.

It is important to keep the statistical context (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showpost.php?p=169673&postcount=10) in mind. The Guardian initiated a fine project (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database), aptly named "The Counted", as shockingly there is no official statistic keeping track of how those persons.

[davidbfpo]

A sometimes hard to watch video montage of recent and not so recent incidents from the NYT:
Those videos, all involving white officers and black civilians, have become ingrained in the nation’s consciousness — to many people, as evidence of bad police conduct. And while they represent just a tiny fraction of police behavior — those that show respectful, peaceful interactions do not make the 24-hour cable news — they have begun to alter public views of police use of force and race relations, experts and police officials say.

Videos have provided “corroboration of what African-Americans have been saying for years,” said Paul Butler, a professor at Georgetown University Law School and a former prosecutor, who called them “the C-Span of the streets.”
Link:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/31/us/through-lens-of-video-a-transformed-view-of-police.html?

The article is also worth reading about body-worn and vehicle video systems are not a magic solution.

[davidbfpo]

A long article in The Guardian; with a sub-title:
Police in Kern County, California, have killed more people per capita than in any other American county in 2015. The Guardian examines how, with little oversight, officers here became the country’s most lethal

In 2015:
In all, 13 people have been killed so far this year by law enforcement officers in Kern County, which has a population of just under 875,000. During the same period, nine people were killed by the NYPD across the five counties of New York City, where almost 10 times as many people live and about 23 times as many sworn law enforcement officers patrol.
Link:http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/01/the-county-kern-county-deadliest-police-killings

There is an interesting table for:
America's deadliest counties for police killings this year Among all US counties with five or more officer-involved killings logged by the Guardian in 2015, Kern County saw the most deaths per capita.*
The deadliest counties — those with 10 or more deaths – are show below

[AmericanPride]

Thanks for sharing the article, David. I'm going to take a look at it shortly - I used to live just north of Kern County.

When I was in Army Recruiting, my battalion owned all of Central California, including Bakersfield and Kern County. The north-south running Central Valley (which includes the county at its southernmost portion) is not an affluent region. In fact, it has many of the markers of a third-world country, including, among other things, high food insecurity, high unemployment, and low education and health outcomes. It is dominated by the agriculture industry, which while labor intensive, does not produce a high number of jobs. There is a growing healthcare industry in Fresno (about 2 hours north of Bakersfield) but it suffers from a lack of available talent. An estimated 30% of the population is either an illegal migrant or has one in their immediate family. Needless to say, poverty is widespread. There are some projects to rejuvenate the region's economy, including the construction of a high speed rail from Los Angeles to San Francisco. The estimated train commute from Fresno to SF would be under an hour (compared to a 3 hour drive). Although the project has broken ground, there is widespread resistance from landowners and agriculture because of the loss of land and the fear of urbanization. Water is of course another major issue with the state responding to the drought by arbitrarily fining residents and municipalities for not decreasing usage by 25% but leaving the farms unregulated. Many in the ag industry have not upgraded their irrigation infrastructure to more efficient systems because of lack of capital (or lack of the desire to use it). This has raised basic cost of living for low income households. Lastly, the Central Valley is a transit corridor between Northern California (SF, Sacramento) and Southern California (LA, San Diego, with eventual stops in Las Vegas, Phoenix, and Mexico). This brings through a massive amount of commercial, illegal, and transient traffic on I-5 and Highway 99. Bakersfield itself sits just north of wear I-5 and HWY 99 come together.

Unsurprisingly for recruiting purposes, Kern Country was a high producer because many of the qualified candidates (granted, it was a smaller pool), had few other opportunities. There are many structural problems in California making this problem more pronounced, such as budget cuts to secondary education institutions and the increasing difficult (and cost) on attendance at a state college.

All of Central California has experienced white flight in the last 5 years as well, leaving Kern County with a significant and rapidly growing Hispanic population. Politically speaking, the Central Valley is predominantly represented by Republicans in Congress. The Fresno police department, though serving a major metropolitan area, suffered from a lack of funds, especially after the recession and the self-imposed austerity measures that followed. Fresno PD response times are horrible and in many cases, they do not respond at all unless there is an immediate threat to life. I would think it's safe to guess that Bakersfield suffers from something similar.

I suspect these structural factors all have a bearing on law enforcement and governance outcomes in Kern County.