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Jedburgh
02-20-2007, 02:01 PM
SSI Letort Paper, 20 Feb 07:

Understanding Indian Insurgencies: Implications for COIN Ops in the Third World (http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB751.pdf)

...The objective of this paper is to develop a theoretical perspective for analyzing the Indian experience with insurgency, and to discuss its implications for counterinsurgency in Third World countries. Understanding the affected population is essential for understanding an insurgency or planning for counterinsurgency. The contested population is not only the end; it is also an important means for the insurgent. The insurgents and government of the day compete with one another to control the population, as well as to gain the populace’s loyalty....

goesh
02-21-2007, 02:53 PM
I think any number of books could be written on the comparative analysis of 3rd world conflicts and insurgency and our own Indian fighting experience. We are looking at roughly a 260 year time frame of active Native resistance, roughly from King Phillip's War to Wounded Knee of 1890. Indian activists and militants in a non-hostile mode of today say it is a 500 year resistance, the point being that from such longevity of combat and cross cultural experience, there appears to be little draw-down on the lessons learned. Take General Crook for instance, that despite his brilliance against the Apaches, he was almost killed at the Battle of the Rosebud against the Lakota and Cheyene and his force was routed. Had Crook not been literally surrounded by a contingent of his Native scouts with lever action Winchesters, he may well have been killed himself. His brilliance and mistakes and many others like him appear to be overlooked and ignored. Why did Crook fail at the Rosebud? He had the logistics, firepower and manpower and he had native scouts and a wealth of personal command and combat experience. God knows he had the popular support of the American people too. Did he underestimate the charisma of Crazy Horse and leadership of Gall? He couldn't have been aware of Sitting Bull's vision quest and sundance that foretold victories against the hated Pony Soldiers. Contrary to our written history books, Sitting Bull was psychologically and spiritually prepping for the summer of 1876 for quite some time. Did Crook mistakenly regard Sitting Bull as a commander and not the Medicine Man he really was, thus having some corrupted Intel from the get-go? Were his interpretors telling him what they thought he wanted to hear and not what they were really hearing and seeing? Who knows. Is al-sadr really an Imam or a field commander?

As stated, there are a multitude of variables and approaches that can be taken in the relationships of our Indian wars and current 3rd world insurgencies. The hodge-podge title of my post reflects I think the current situation in Iraq and Afghanistan where neither rhyme nor reason seems to account for the fact that we are not achieving what we know we can attain in those two theatres of operation.

Is there a parallel with the notion of trying to implement Democracy in 3rd world Muslim countries and trying to aculturate the Indians to our way of life in the 1800s? The best minds of the time thought the Indians would readily adopt and adapt to our way of life. Make farmers of them buffalo hunters was a popular idea at the time. Once they see the light, they'll switch over fast. To help them along, there was an attempt to suppress their spirituality. The Sundance was outlawed well into the 1900s. Peyote was outlawed until recently. Kids were literally taken to reservation schools, their hair cut short and they were punished for speaking their own language. This system continued on well into the 1950s. Make Christians of them heathens was the general idea of the time. What we fail to collectively comprehend is that Indians did adjust, adopt and adapt but on their terms. The underlying fact behind the high enlistment rate and the high decoration rate among Native Americans in time of war is they still regard America as their land. The rest of us are and always will remain boat people, immigrants and to some Natives, squatters with better weapons. Bear in mind the last time Federal forces were in the process of being mustered against an Indian insurrection was in 1973 at Wounded Knee II. If anything, the passive resistance by Indians via litigation and protest over what they perceive as cultural encroachment and domination is increasing. The most recent 'hit' our side took was the demise of Chief Illiniwek, the mascot of Illinois, whom the NCAA has deemed "hostile and abusive" to Native Americans. He has danced his last dance at games, folks. Now isn't that a kick to the dominant culture? Morality and ethics aside, it is demonstrative of ongoing cultural friction after the last official conflict ended 117 years ago at Wounded Knee I.

During the Indian wars of the 1800s, any number of field Officers had serious issues with a number of Indian Agents. Corruption was rampant and some Agents were allowing whiskey peddlers free access. The classic example of this is the Santee uprising otherwise known as the Minnesota Massacre. The Santee were experiencing real hunger and the corrupt Indian Agent made the statement, "let them eat grass". His body was later found with grass stuffed in his mouth and many innocent civilians died during the uprising on both sides. Some of the Santee fighters fled to the plains and joined forces with their Lakota cousins as well. I know there have been issues with our Military and private security contractors. Are Officers seeing corruption and other issues with private contractors that is detrimental to the Iraqi and Afghani people and ultimately our troops? If so, why aren't we hearing about it? What mechanisms are in place to deal with this? Where does the buck stop? Are Officer and enlisted men at all encouraged or expected to report corruption?

Jedburgh
08-19-2008, 02:25 PM
HRW, 18 Aug 08: Getting Away With Murder: 50 Years of the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act (http://hrw.org/backgrounder/2008/india0808/india0808webwcover.pdf)

In August 2008, India celebrates 61 years of independence and democracy. But many are lamenting another anniversary: 50 years of the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act (AFSPA (http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/resources/armed_forces.htm) or “the Act”). Enacted on August 18, 1958, as a short-term measure to allow deployment of the army to counter an armed separatist movement in the Naga Hills, the AFSPA has now been in force for five decades in states in India’s northeast. Similar laws have also been used in Punjab and in Jammu and Kashmir.

The AFSPA gives the armed forces wide powers to shoot to kill, arrest on flimsy pretext, conduct warrantless searches, and demolish structures in the name of “aiding civil power.” Equipped with these special powers, soldiers have raped, tortured, “disappeared,” and killed Indian citizens for five decades without fear of being held accountable.......

Kevin23
08-29-2009, 03:32 AM
Counter insurgency in modern day India, a nation where a dozen or so insurgencies are being waged, has always interested me as a topic. However even though I know plenty about the conflict in Kashmir in terms of the insurgency side which is the most known insurgency within India. I'm more curious to hear about the tactics and forces/armed groups involved in other insurgencies within India like the Naxalite insurgency in eastern India and the the conflicts in Assam and Manipur, so on and so forth.

Also from what I take of it much of the insurgencies within India are fear from typical in many ways.

Klugzilla
08-29-2009, 12:52 PM
You may be way ahead of me on this, but I like the following two sources for this area:

Urban Battle Fields of South Asia (http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2004/RAND_MG210.pdf), RAND, by C. Christine Fair

Understanding Indian Insurgencies: Implications for Counterinsurgency Operations in the Third World (http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/pub751.pdf), Letort Papers, Durga Madhab (John) Mitra

davidbfpo
08-29-2009, 05:21 PM
The only Indian focus website I can recall: http://www.satp.org/ which is the South Asian Terrorism Portal and is Indian-based.

I know there are Indian think tanks on security / strategic studies and the Indian Army journals are all in English.

davidbfpo

Jedburgh
02-19-2010, 02:59 PM
IPCS, 18 Feb 10: Naxlites' Urban Push: Will They Succeed? (http://ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/IB138-Ramanai-Naxal.pdf)

Undoubtedly, the Naxalites pose a serious threat to India’s progress. Their influence has spread across a few important states in the eastern part of the country, among which the worst affected by the threat include Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal and Maharashtra. Though the entire area of these states are not entirely in the grip of the Naxalites, certain districts within each state are under their serious influence. Among these, the districts in Bastar region of Chhattisgarh can be ranked the most affected....

....While there are several dimensions of the Naxalite threat; the objective of this essay is to discuss in particular the Naxalite strategy in urban areas.What are the implications of their urban penetration? What are likely to be the security implications of this new strategy of the Naxalites? More importantly, will the Naxalites be successful in carrying out their will in urban areas? How can this new push be arrested?

davidbfpo
03-29-2010, 10:54 PM
Entitled Battling the Maoists in Jharkhand, a BBC report:
It is a difficult terrain enveloped in dense forest cover and spread over several square kilometres. East Singbhum district in the eastern Indian state of Jharkhand has been considered the heartland of the Maoist insurgency for more than two decades now.

Link:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8580004.stm

I'm other news items have appeared since the last update, so "It's the thought that counts".

Firn
03-30-2010, 09:44 AM
This bit catched my eye:


It is an unnerving journey along the muddy tracts that lead to Derabasa village. The hills surrounding Derabasa are said to provide a safe shelter to the Maoists who not only take refuge here but also hold their training camps.

The Maoist guerrillas often seek food in the nearby villages and locals say they are caught in the middle.

"The Maoists come asking for food. They ask us to cook for them and feed them. The police ask us not to give them even a grain. Police are here today. But what will happen tomorrow? We will be at the mercy of the Maoist armed squads. Who is going to protect us then?" asks a villager who doesn't want to be named.

I hear the same complaint in several villages.


India offers certainly a lot of fertile physical, political and social terrain for such movements.


Firn

AdamG
04-06-2010, 01:36 PM
'Troopers ignored warfare manual in Maoist den'
Calcutta News.Net
Tuesday 6th April, 2010 (IANS)
http://www.calcuttanews.net/story/620552


It would appear that the 75 Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) troopers who were killed mercilessly Tuesday by Maoists were seized with a death wish as they ventured 'blindly' into the Maoist den ignoring all warfare guidelines they were taught.

Jedburgh
04-09-2010, 02:57 PM
CSIS, 8 Apr 10: A Modern Insurgency: India’s Evolving Naxalite Problem (http://csis.org/files/publication/SAM_140_0.pdf)

The April 6, 2010, ambush in Chhattisgarh state, killing 76 members of the Central Reserve Police Force, marks the deadliest attack upon Indian security forces since the foundation of the “Naxalite (http://naxaliterage.com/)” movement. Formed from a 1967 split within the Communist Party of India (Marxist), the insurgency has been responsible for decades of violence throughout eastern and central India’s “Red Corridor.” These loosely affiliated Maoist rebels claim to fight on behalf of the landless poor, virulently opposing the injustice and oppression of the Indian state. In response to attacks on police officers, government officials, and landlords, India has employed an assortment of counterinsurgency strategies that, over the years, have met varied levels of success. As the modern Naxalite movement continues to develop, the Indian government faces new complications related to one of its most destabilizing internal security challenges. Adequately addressing this threat will prove essential in solidifying India’s status as a rising world power, as well as demonstrating its capacity to effectively combat militancy.

Jedburgh
04-27-2010, 02:44 PM
IPCS, 26 April 2010: Countering the Naxalites: Deploying the Armed Forces (http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/SR89-PR_Chari.pdf)

A great deal needs to be done by the Central and State governments to undertake the long haul for dealing with the Naxalite menace. Periodic declarations that the problem will be ‘wiped out’ in three or four or five years must be dismissed for what they are—political whistling in the dark. The people need being taken into confidence that no quick or painless solution to this complex problem is possible. Does the Indian leadership have the courage to make a ‘blood, sweat and tears’ declaration? And not offer meaningless palliatives with an ear cocked towards the next elections? A great responsibility has also devolved on the civil and military bureaucracies to execute appropriate countermeasures and policies to deal with the Naxalite threat, without feeling the need to seek orders from their political masters to perform their Constitution mandated duties. Like the French bureaucracy in the Third Republic. But, unlike the bureaucracy in Gujarat, circa 2002.

davidbfpo
05-09-2010, 09:45 PM
The headline for a BBC News report:
Senior politicians in the Indian state of Jharkand say they are living in fear and hardly dare venture from their own homes.In recent weeks Maoist rebels have begun issuing death threats against local Congress Party leaders - demanding they oppose the government's latest military offensive against the guerrillas. These are not empty threats. Earlier this month the Maoists gunned down Congress leader Govardhan Mahli in the East Singhbhum district of the state.

Beyond the headlines and some strange phrases - governance and governors under threat.

Link:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8639621.stm and this link to a map of where this province is:http://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/jharkhand/jharkhandlocation.htm

An earlier BBC report on the Maoist motivation:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8659501.stm

Kevin23
05-22-2010, 03:37 AM
In my own observations of the Indian government's dilemma in fighting the Naxalite insurgency, I've come away with some thoughts about this insurrection both from my readings and from this site. Most of them will appear obvious, however some of them are connections to one another and movements in the wider realm of insurgency.


. Even though very different in terms of ideology, history, as well as goals. The Naxalites and Middle Eastern insurgencies like the one in Iraq, share the common thread of focusing on the population of the areas they operate through exploiting the frustration with a situation to direct a population in the direction of an insurgency. As well as using oppression,indoctrination, and intimidation as ways to further solidly their control from the insurgent point of view.

.Like in Iraq in the case of Al-Qaeda and the foreign fighter elements in relation to the population, the Naxalites in the 22 Indian states that they operate in appear to have differing goals from those of the populations they fight among. As the population at least in the case of the tribals, seem to have grievances about both government and private exploitation. While some Naxalite commanders have other goals in mind, both in terms of ideological and material gain.

.The Indian armed and security forces seem to be making the same mistake of trying to crush the Naxalites head on while having little strategy of how to ply away the tribals from the Naxalites other then "through building development projects along with the counterinsurgency campaign or after the Naxalites have been defeated". The Indian government's strategy is also further plagued by the lack of direction, coordination, and discipline among many elements of the Indian forces involved in the counterinsurgency, which in the process seems to be driving some groups to the Naxalites not previously attracted to the insurgency.

. Overall another observation that could be made, is that the Naxalites and any success they have had is due to India's great level's of inequality and history of such. That has allowed groups like the Naxalites to exist and have some success. Which from this, the Indian government can take some comfort in showing that in many ways the Naxalite insurgency isn't a unique phenomenon. However, it also highlights the type of unrest in India that exists, and how more of it could be breed.

Bob's World
05-22-2010, 03:54 AM
Well, if one were to apply The Jones Insurgency Model (shameless plug acknowledged) to the Governance / Populace dynamics of India, as well as China; that in the long run the U.S. has little to worry about either of these emerging economic powerhouses achieving their full potential.

They are quite likely doomed to devolve into debilitating insurgencies as the gap widens between the haves and have nots; exacerbating the four causal factors of Poor Governance.

Kevin23
05-24-2010, 12:58 AM
Well, if one were to apply The Jones Insurgency Model (shameless plug acknowledged) to the Governance / Populace dynamics of India, as well as China; that in the long run the U.S. has little to worry about either of these emerging economic powerhouses achieving their full potential.

They are quite likely doomed to devolve into debilitating insurgencies as the gap widens between the haves and have nots; exacerbating the four causal factors of Poor Governance.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that both the PRC and India will succumb as governments to internal disturbances or insurgencies, because even under the Jones model both governments are attempting to at least play to the interests of all groups in their respective countries.. Despite the fact that all factors of poor governance exist in China and India. For example, India is democracy in which groups across the political, economic, and social spectrum have representation in which the interests and grievances of all groups are played to. In the case of China, the government in Beijing is also beginning to address some of the issues and problems under the Jones Model in the various provinces of China, with one instance of this being the rural-urban divide which has also translated into a economic/class divide as well.

On the last notes to this point, industrializing nations within the Western World also exhibited many of the symptoms under the Jones Model but managed to evolve into successful industrialized countries. Also in the cases of both China and India, both nations have a history of varying degrees of internal disorder, so at least in the case of India what makes such disturbances unusual?

However then again in world history, the issue of two nations with populations of a billion plus people and the conflicting interests and grievances that such a population brings.

tequila
05-28-2010, 08:18 PM
An article in The Deccan Chronicle from a former IPS officer, contrasting how Andra Pradesh tackled Naxalism in the 1990s with the current special police/local militia offensive (http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article395529.ece?homepage=true)being undertaken in Chhattisgarh:

Make the war public (http://www.deccanchronicle.com/op-ed/make-war-public-175)



* A ban was imposed on the Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) and its front organisations like Radical Students’ Union and Progressive Democratic Students’ Union to check activities like bandhs and to stop fresh recruitment.

* A new legislation, Public Security Act, cut off the nexus between Naxals and their sympathisers in the affected villages.

* Intensive development of interior areas, particularly of roads and communications, was undertaken.

* A solution was sought to the various issues raised by extremists through a special cell functioning in the chief minister’s office.

* Employment was promoted in a big way. There was, in fact, a special focus on employing tribals in good numbers in all government departments, particularly the police, to give them a greater sense of participation in governance.

* Procurement of forest produce was taken away from forest contractors and entrusted with government corporations, thereby cutting off the flow of funds to extremists.

* A rehabilitation policy for those extremists wanting to leave the movement was put into action.

* Perception management, or counter-propaganda, through well-trained cultural troupes was undertaken.

A major issue in India is the drive to nationalize/federalize the Naxalite insurgency by bringing in the Army. Historically, most Indian insurgencies (excepting Kashmir) were tackled and resolved by the police at the state level.

Jedburgh
06-22-2010, 04:35 PM
A series of articles from IPCS in New Delhi, published 14-21 June 2010:

Countering the Naxal Threat I: An Analysis of Earlier Efforts (http://www.ipcs.org/article/india/countering-the-naxal-threat-i-an-analysis-of-earlier-efforts-3149.html)

Countering the Naxal Threat II: A Case for Specialized Units (http://www.ipcs.org/article/india/countering-the-naxal-threat-ii-a-case-for-specialized-units-3150.html)

Countering the Naxal Threat III: Use the CRPF and Avoid the Army (http://www.ipcs.org/article/india/countering-the-naxal-threat-iii-use-the-crpf-and-avoid-3151.html)

Countering the Naxal Threat IV: Military as an Option? (http://www.ipcs.org/article/india/countering-the-naxal-threat-iv-military-as-an-option-3152.html)

Kevin23
08-17-2010, 02:07 AM
Here is an interesting article from Foreign Policy, about how the mining situation in the Naxalite infected region is both fueling their cause and providing funding and support to their operations.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/08/16/fire_in_the_hole

davidbfpo
09-02-2010, 08:25 PM
In summary:
India's long-running Maoist insurgency has increased in intensity in recent months. In April, 76 government troops were killed by Naxalite guerrillas in a brutal hit-and-run ambush near Chintalnar in Dantewada district in the central state of Chhattisgarh – the largest Naxalite strike in the group's 43-year history. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has described the rebellion as 'India's gravest security threat.

An IISS Strategic Comment:http://www.iiss.org/publications/strategic-comments/past-issues/volume-16-2010/september/indias-maoist-challenge/

Which ends with:
In the longer term, India's growing prosperity offers a window to tackle the structural roots of the conflict – but there must be doubt about whether the government has either the will or the political capital to use this opportunity.

davidbfpo
03-13-2011, 12:21 PM
I missed the radio story and caught this article on the insurgency in North East India:
For about 50 years, the Indian police and army have been battling separatist insurgents in the north-eastern state of Manipur, a conflict which human rights groups claim leaves at least 500 women widowed each year.

Link:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9421267.stm

The main report is on:http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2011/03/110301_doc_the_silent_war.shtml

davidbfpo
03-13-2011, 12:21 PM
I missed the radio story and caught this article on the insurgency in North East India:
For about 50 years, the Indian police and army have been battling separatist insurgents in the north-eastern state of Manipur, a conflict which human rights groups claim leaves at least 500 women widowed each year.

Link:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9421267.stm

The main report is on:http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2011/03/110301_doc_the_silent_war.shtml

blueblood
03-24-2011, 10:46 PM
Naxalism is the result of the failed policies of the Indian National Congress party which ruled India most of the time since independence in 1947. They introduced some laws and acts which were socialism inspired like Jamindari Act and Chakbandi Act which abolished Jamindari practice ( literal meaning land owners ). Jamindars were Upper Class Hindu and Muslim families generally related to the ruling Royal families of their respective states or are on good terms with British Raj holding most of the land in their villages. It was strictly implemented in most of the country but not in some remote tribal areas.

The result was that tribals were denied the land which constitutionally belonged to them and were oppressed by upper caste Hindus. Since, no other political party was capable of challenging Congress on national level, they ruled the way they wanted ignoring problems and further more by playing dirty vote bank politics. Communist leaders decided to oppose and they failed miserably when they contested for elections because of the lack of support from most of the tribals except in West Bengal which was a strong hold of Communism.

A movement which was started to provide justice to tribals lost it's genuineness as soon as CPI(Maoist) lost the elections fair and square and took the arms to "liberate" the tribals. So, even today you will find Naxalite propaganda machine telling the tribals all sorts of lies like Government is building roads so that can reach you to kill you, illegal mining and abducting teachers and other civil servants just to keep tribals the way they are i.e innocent and uneducated and if not then a bullet in the head.

They are losing this war and their popularity among the tribals since the government has started programs to get rid of headache and proper development of these areas is on it's way.

There is another misconception that a large number of districts in India is affected by Naxalism. A Naxalite arms factory was discovered at the heart of the city Bhopal barely 500 m from my home but it doesn't mean that the city is Naxalite infected as we never had any casualty in the last 40 years. Technically it is but practically not.

You can compare it with the Times Square incident, yes someone tried to detonate a bomb but it doesn't mean that NY is terrorism infected.

blueblood
03-24-2011, 10:58 PM
Well, if one were to apply The Jones Insurgency Model (shameless plug acknowledged) to the Governance / Populace dynamics of India, as well as China; that in the long run the U.S. has little to worry about either of these emerging economic powerhouses achieving their full potential.

They are quite likely doomed to devolve into debilitating insurgencies as the gap widens between the haves and have nots; exacerbating the four causal factors of Poor Governance.

If you compare present day India with US in the 1850-60s we are doing way much better if we consider the time when 60 years have passed since they got their independence.

Ray
04-06-2011, 12:16 PM
If I may give another perspective to Insurgencies in India.

Contrary to the popular belief, democracy has been not been introduced to India by the West nor was or is alien to India. It has been functioning in the ancient times (Ram Rajya). Ram Rajya aimed at transparency in public affairs, sanctity of contract and accountability to people; in short, the dharma of good governance.


That apart, owing to the tribal/ insular community structure, the activities of governance emanated from the village level (panchayati raj). This practice is still followed, but in the present environment, is enmeshed in politics and village rivalries.

Historically, owing to various conquest, this Ram Rajya faded at the highest level of governance since governance was at the whims of the Conqueror, it nevertheless continued to flourish at the village level. Even, the Zamindari system pf British India was village or district oriented, even if not the ideal form of Ram Rajya or Panchayati Raj.

Therefore, notwithstanding the conquests and the governance pattern of the rulers. the importance of the village, their tribal/ community loyalties/ the writ of their leaders remained an important aspect of Indian governance matrix and its role in shaping the destiny of the area.

Rewinding to the present, in the tribal and remote areas, the writ of the State government or the Union (Federal) government is evident more in default than in practice. Therefore, the village heads, more or less, decides the fate of the villages.

Left to their means without cognizable government presence and activities, the people of the tribal/ remote areas, felt alienated and could perceive the neglect. In this void, vested interests (be they political or religious) played their part. They not only assisted in solving the individual's or the communities problems but also contributed to the development, even if marginal, of these tribal/ remote areas. The Caste system worked in the favour of both the religious and the political organisers since they broke down this barrier and gave the people an equality that they had never believed existed! This was 'powerful medicine'!!

These vested interests, because of their yeoman activities, including giving the tribal or neglected people, a meaning to life and ambition, endeared themselves to the people of the villages and the area. The official government, for good reasons, became non existent as far as these people were concerned. It mattered little to the rare petty official of the Government, who may have been stationed there, or who came a visiting as a part of his duty.

Having become a force to reckon with, these vested interests pursued their agenda, Having proved the lack of interest mainstream India had for the neglected people of the area, were able to indoctrinate them with a new 'identity' (at places based on religion and separate ethnic root, and at place, based on a social and political root).

These 'separatisms' starting as small movements. It caught the imagination of many like bushfire by those who felt that they were deprived and it finally such movements rode rough into large movements culminating in insurgencies.

The above is but a very broad template. Notwithstanding, each insurgency has its own chemistry within this broad framework.

davidbfpo
09-26-2011, 10:00 AM
An Indian article reflecting on the long identified threat from Maoist insurgency and what has not been done:http://www.sunday-guardian.com/analysis/grassroots-experts-can-help-tackle-maoist-menace

Not that these factors do not exist elsewhere.

Ends with:
Government conferences or National Security Advisory Board deliberations will not work since they do not have grassroots knowledge.

Which is a reminder that SWC has a part to play, assuming those way above read here.

davidbfpo
09-27-2011, 10:37 AM
A SWJ article 'Countering Insurgency In South Asia: Three Approaches', which is wide-ranging and worth a read, if not study:http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/countering-insurgency-in-south-asia-three-approaches

Ray
10-09-2011, 07:37 AM
A SWJ article 'Countering Insurgency In South Asia: Three Approaches', which is wide-ranging and worth a read, if not study:http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/countering-insurgency-in-south-asia-three-approaches

A very well written and analysed article.

It analyses the Indian, US and Pakistani approaches and initiative in LIC/ COIN rather well.

Indeed, it is worth a look by those who observe the Afghanistan case both academically as also hands on.

Ray
10-09-2011, 08:43 AM
In continuation to the post in which Blueblood has correctly mentioned about Naxalism and the causes, it is worth noting that feudalism was still prevalent in some place. In fact, in India’s ‘cow belt’, which includes UP, Bihar and Madhya Pradesh, a very mild form and even impotent, still struggles to remain relevant with an equal backlash, at times, violent.

Thanks to the abolition of the Zamindari Act, Bhoodan Movement and the West Bengal (a state that has 23 years plus of governance) agrarian reforms, there has been an awakening of the peasants and tillers of the land of the exploitation that came into being because of the Permanent Settlement enacted by Lord Cornwallis, leading to absentee Landlordism. This is what the root of the peasant unrest is, amongst other causes as given by Blueblood.

With NGOs funded by foreign funds and it being fashionable to spout western liberalism, there has been an unprecedented growth of bleeding hearts of all hues, western (mostly leftist) and genuine leftist (sponsored by left organisation having links with left countries). Therefore, anything that is done for economic progress is taken to be anti people. To be true, India’s natural resources are untapped in areas where ingress has been difficult and was never exploited by either the British or the post independent Indian govts. These areas are inhabited by the deprived and the tribals ( a large majority being Christians supported by evangelist churches). It maybe noted that the even the first of the insurgencies i.e. NE has been foundationed by the Church. Their is a belief in India that this was CIA inspired since at that time, the US was not quite amenable to India!!

With the economic development essential for India, it has become necessary to prospect in areas that are untapped and yet lucrative as per surveys. However, this would upset forest lands and where tribal live. It is an ideal cause for environmentalists and ‘human rights’ organisations, mostly funded by vested foreign powers to ensure that the progress of India is halted in its tracks for obvious reasons, given that there is already one economic power that is causing problems, as also for the rising power, to ensure that none other rises!!

At the same time, there is no doubt that the exploitation would affect lives and their way of life of many.

It is a Catch 22 situation.

Dayuhan
10-09-2011, 09:00 AM
It is an ideal cause for environmentalists and ‘human rights’ organisations, mostly funded by vested foreign powers to ensure that the progress of India is halted in its tracks for obvious reasons, given that there is already one economic power that is causing problems, as also for the rising power, to ensure that none other rises!!

Any evidence that environmental/human rights groups are being funded by Western powers with the aim of stopping Indian progress? It seems pretty farfetched to me, and the US certainly has no reason to want to stop India - or for that matter China - from making economic progress.

The environmental and human rights issues exist, and people are involved in them for a wide variety of reasons. I happen to live in a tribal area with rich mineral deposits, and the community I live in would be obliterated if "progress" got round to digging us up, so I'm not at all averse to seeing folks local and foreign throwing kinks into that particular type of "progress"... looking at what's happened elsewhere, the degree of progress involved is quite debatable.

blueblood
11-26-2011, 10:27 AM
West Bengal's top Maoist leader Koteshwar Rao alias Kishenji has been killed in a gunbattle with security forces in Burishol in Lalgarh, West Midnapore, sources in the state police have said.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/top-bengal-maoist-kishenji-killed-in-gunbattle-with-forces/880038/

This guy has been running the show for the last three decades. COBRA guys finally nailed him.

blueblood
11-26-2011, 10:29 AM
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Meghalaya/Meghalaya-rebel-chief-nabbed-in-Bangladesh-Police/Article1-773671.aspx

In a major setback to the Garo National Liberation Army (GNLA), its top leader Champion R Sangma has been detained in Bangladesh and is likely to be handed over to India soon, a police official on Thursday.

blueblood
11-26-2011, 10:57 AM
Any evidence that environmental/human rights groups are being funded by Western powers with the aim of stopping Indian progress? It seems pretty farfetched to me, and the US certainly has no reason to want to stop India - or for that matter China - from making economic progress.

The environmental and human rights issues exist, and people are involved in them for a wide variety of reasons. I happen to live in a tribal area with rich mineral deposits, and the community I live in would be obliterated if "progress" got round to digging us up, so I'm not at all averse to seeing folks local and foreign throwing kinks into that particular type of "progress"... looking at what's happened elsewhere, the degree of progress involved is quite debatable.

This is how it works in India. The likes of Medha Patkar, a renowned social activist reaches out to the people who are supposed to be affected by the building of a dam or a power plant. She stages protests, meanwhile encouraging people to build as much as they can on the said land. I've seen people creating three story buildings within two weeks of government declaring the project.

The project gets delayed for the jibber-jabber of the compensation meanwhile the country or the institution that financed the project enjoys a hefty interest. It doesn't exactly takes a rocket scientist to figure out who is hitting the jack pot here.

For the naxalites, it a different game, they are against the government because it neglected them. So, now when the government is trying to make up for it, they will blow up railway lines, kill government officials and school teachers and again claim that government is doing nothing to help the tribals.

If the tribals do get educated, their will be no innocent village folk to revere the didi (older sister) or dada (older brother), as the naxals project themselves to be.

Ray
11-26-2011, 07:45 PM
Crackdown on anti-national NGOs
28 Sep 2011, 0937 hrs IST
It's a shocking case of anti-national outfits posing as NGOs across the country. TIMES NOW has accessed intelligence documents listing over a hundred NGOs, which are not only violating rules but funding terrorists.
http://www.timesnow.tv/Crackdown-on-anti-national-NGOs/articleshow/4385125.cms



Foreign Funding for
NGOs Under Review
A huge advertisement in the leading national daily 'Indian Express', Friday, accused famous NBA leader Medha Patkar of sustaining her campaign with the help of foreign money received through illegal channels.



Role of the Church and Insurgency
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0508/105.html


It is not for me to judge.

The Home Ministry has now declared that all NGOs will have to declare the source of their funds if they come from abroad.

Dayuhan
11-26-2011, 10:29 PM
The project gets delayed for the jibber-jabber of the compensation meanwhile the country or the institution that financed the project enjoys a hefty interest. It doesn't exactly takes a rocket scientist to figure out who is hitting the jack pot here.

It was suggested above that foreign governments are funding these movements to obstruct India's development. here it seems to be suggested that foreign financing organizations are underhandedly paying to obstruct the same projects they finance in able to gain higher interest payments. That all sounds, honestly, very conspiratorial and very improbable. I have no doubt that these movements get funding from overseas, but it's most likely simply form individuals and groups that support their agenda. It's not hard to get funding support from environmental/social movements in the west for opposition to a dam or a mine.

I'm personally glad that's the case... as stated above, I live in a place where tribal people have had to constantly resist, by means up to and including insurgency, efforts to displace them to make way for dams, mines, and logging. Those efforts have succeeded, with foreign support helping. After all, if it's reasonable for the government to seek foreign financing to build a dam, surely it's equally reasonable for the people who will be displaced to seek foreign support in their efforts to resist the project.


If the tribals do get educated, their will be no innocent village folk to revere the didi (older sister) or dada (older brother), as the naxals project themselves to be.

If experience in my area is anything to judge by, educating the tribal people will make resistance to externally imposed "development" more vigorous and more aggressive.

Support for the NPA (New People's Army, local equivalent of the Naxals) has steadily degraded in my area since the government stopped pushing projects that would displace communities and effectively destroy the local way of life. Today the NPA in this area is a marginal presence and no significant threat. If people fight back when you push them around, you might try not pushing them around.

Ray
11-27-2011, 09:13 AM
Agreed that India maybe paranoid.



NGOs a Cover for Spying in Russia

U.S., British and other foreign nongovermental organizations are providing cover for professional spies in Russia, while Western organizations are bankrolling plans to stage peaceful revolutions in Belarus and other former Soviet republics bordering Russia, Federal Security Service director Nikolai Patrushev told the State Duma on Thursday.

Patrushev said the FSB has monitored and exposed intelligence gathering activities carried out by the U.S. Peace Corps, the British-based Merlin medical relief charity, Kuwait's Society of Social Reforms and the Saudi Red Crescent Society.

He said foreign secret services rely on NGOs to collect information and promote the interests of their countries.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=139


Kazakhstan: What is Behind the Peace Corps Pullout?
http://kazworld.info/?p=17976



On Nov. 5, 2007, Fulbright scholar John Alexander van Schaick arrived at the U.S. Embassy for what was to be a routine orientation meeting before beginning his year-long research project. But he was taken aback when, during his one-on-one security briefing, he says security officer Cooper asked him provide information to the embassy on Cubans and Venezuelans he comes across during his field work. The incident matches accounts by Peace Corps volunteers and staff that on July 29, 2007, Cooper instructed 30 new volunteers to do the same, with respect to Cuban nationals.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4290936&page=1#.TtIB0fLex2A


Peace Corps was a good tool for espionage, like it or not.

Only a country that does not know their onions will spend millions and not use all tools to ensure that the country targeted does not become pro that country. No country would subscribe to the adage - A Fool and His Money is Soon Parted, for that country would indeed be a Fool!


The use of espionage dates back well into ancient history. The Hebrew Bible describes the Hebrews' use of espionage in the Book of Joshua with the story of Rahab, a prostitute who harbored two Hebrew spies. Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs and papyri describe the existence of court spies. Spies were also prevalent in the Greek and Roman empires. In Asia, the importance of deception and subversion were discussed by Chinese military tactician Sun Tzu around 500 B.C.E. in his famous work The Art of War. Two hundred years later, the prime minister of India wrote the Arthashastra, a treatise on government well known for its discussion of the use of espionage. Ninjas were often employed as mercenary spies in feudal Japan, and were known for their skill at infiltrating the enemy. In Europe during the Middle Ages, espionage played a large role in both The Crusades and the Inquisition. During the Renaissance, the political philosopher Niccolo Machiavelli strongly advocated the use of espionage by the ruling class. Elizabethan England was known for the effectiveness of its espionage system, which employed linguists, scholars, and scientists.[1]

From the eighteenth century onwards, espionage gained even more importance. Industrialization, colonialism, and complicated world politics all fueled the quest for information. Informants during the French Revolution were used to track down traitors for trial and execution. Colonial governments used espionage to quell uprisings.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Espionage


Sources may be neutral, friendly, or hostile, and may or may not be witting of their involvement in the collection of information. "Witting" is a term of intelligence art that indicates that one is not only aware of a fact or piece of information, but also aware of its connection to intelligence activities. Examples of HUMINT sources include, but are not limited to, the following:

Advisors or foreign internal defense (FID) personnel working with host nation (HN) forces or populations
Diplomatic reporting by accredited diplomats (e.g., military attachés);
Espionage clandestine reporting, access agents, couriers, cutouts;
Military attachés
Non-governmental organizations (NGOs);
Prisoners of war (POWs) or detainees;
Refugees;
Routine patrolling (military police, patrols, etc.)
Special reconnaissance
Traveler debriefing (e.g., CIA Domestic Contact Service)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_intelligence_%28espionage%29

Also
http://insider-magazine.org/ChristianMafia.htm

http://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/nkrumah/neo-colonialism/ch01.htm

It would be naive to believe that in international politics and oneupmanship all is above board and ethical!

If all were hunky dory, ethical and morally above board, then second or third generation Muslims would not go berserk and bomb the country of their birth under the guidance of the country of their parents and grandparents origin!

While one may not take these at face value, yet there is no smoke without fire.

and no one is Jesus, either.

Dayuhan
11-28-2011, 04:13 AM
I'm not sure how any of the above relates to the matter under discussion, but...

Global Research is a known fringe nut-job conspiracy site, and its credibility is something less than zero.

I'm not in a position to know why the Peace Corps pulled out of Kazakhstan, but a fast and complete pullout is usually a result of a real or suspected threat to volunteer safety.

The Peace Corps is actually a pretty useless tool for espionage. Volunteers and staff are typically well to the left side of the political spectrum, quite allergic to anything even vaguely resembling military or intelligence involvement, and are likely to howl to the media at the first hint of an approach... as that complete ass in Bolivia who tried an approach discovered to his chagrin. It would certainly be possible to insert an agent without the knowledge of the staff of other volunteers, but as anyone who's been a volunteer or has been close to the organization knows, it wouldn't be a very useful cover.

It would be silly to deny that espionage takes place, but it's equally silly to attribute all one sees to espionage, especially when far more likely explanations are at hand.

jmm99
11-28-2011, 05:40 AM
Ray:

The Peace Corps was somewhat "submerged" between 1971-1981; but its independence was assured by this fighting lady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loret_Miller_Ruppe#Independence_of_the_Peace_Corps ) - who died far too young (http://peacecorpsonline.org/messages/messages/2629/2203334.html) so far as her family and friends were concerned. Her daughter Adele is presently with DoS.

Regards

Mike

Ray
11-29-2011, 07:41 PM
JMM,

I posted links of what is felt around the parts.

Personally, I know many Peace Corps workers did real good work.

In fact, IIRC when I quoted the Ugly American, I did say that organisations like the Peace Corps did some yeoman's work to change the perception about the US.

It is known that ideal organisations where one can park human resources intelligence assets are organisations which appear benign and work unhindered with the people and can travel without raising suspicion. NGOs, religious organisations, news agencies etc are known to be areas where agents are parked, apart from other organisations.

Dayuhan
11-29-2011, 10:27 PM
I posted links of what is felt around the parts.

If you're dealing with local perception, then yes, every PCV, missionary, NGO Worker etc is a CIA agent. When I was in the Peace Corps (many many years ago) it was simply taken for granted that we had something to do with the CIA. Of course it didn't make sense, but people believed it anyway: people believe all kinds of stuff.


It is known that ideal organisations where one can park human resources intelligence assets are organisations which appear benign and work unhindered with the people and can travel without raising suspicion. NGOs, religious organisations, news agencies etc are known to be areas where agents are parked, apart from other organisations.

Anyone actually familiar with the way the Peace Corps works (and the way the CIA works) will see immediately that PCV cover would be far from ideal - in fact close to useless - for an intelligence operation. Of course that reality will not affect perceptions at all.

Ken White
11-29-2011, 11:27 PM
In every case, the overall tone of the volunteers was effectively anti-US government to at least some extent (protective coloration in some cases) and they were far more likely to aid our nominal opponents than us...

In fact, in two nations, they did just that and we were able to get, respectively, one person and several removed from those countries.

Not that the Agency in many cases is much different... :wry:

davidbfpo
11-30-2011, 03:11 PM
West Bengal's top Maoist leader Koteshwar Rao alias Kishenji has been killed in a gunbattle with security forces in Burishol in Lalgarh, West Midnapore, sources in the state police have said.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/top-bengal-maoist-kishenji-killed-in-gunbattle-with-forces/880038/

This guy has been running the show for the last three decades. COBRA guys finally nailed him.

An update from FP Blog, with some background and details of the final mission:

I was struck by this phrase, the English language used is, well, different:
Kishenji found himself cornered, and started a firefight that lasted for over two hours. While the guerrilla leader and his loyalists desperately sprayed the forest with bullets, the CoBRAs retaliated with precision artillery.

Link:http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/11/29/the_generals_luck_runs_out

We shall have to check on Stan's location.;)

blueblood
12-01-2011, 09:42 AM
If experience in my area is anything to judge by, educating the tribal people will make resistance to externally imposed "development" more vigorous and more aggressive.

Support for the NPA (New People's Army, local equivalent of the Naxals) has steadily degraded in my area since the government stopped pushing projects that would displace communities and effectively destroy the local way of life. Today the NPA in this area is a marginal presence and no significant threat. If people fight back when you push them around, you might try not pushing them around.


This is where you are wrong. The current government has consistently bent over backwards for minority, tribal and lower caste votes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India

If you are a tribal, you can study in the best educational institutions for almost free (last I remember, it was nearly $50 for the tribal and lower castes for two semesters in the state eng. colleges). In urban India, things like caste do not exist and this is the thing Naxals fear the most.

blueblood
12-01-2011, 09:46 AM
An update from FP Blog, with some background and details of the final mission:


Please post the link. This is nearly impossible as only army has artillery and CRPF being a paramilitary/light infantry do not have access to any higher calibre weapon.

Blueblood and maybe others,

(Added by Moderator) My apologies for the missing link, I've added it on he initial post and here:http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/11/29/the_generals_luck_runs_out

Dayuhan
12-01-2011, 10:07 AM
This is where you are wrong. The current government has consistently bent over backwards for minority, tribal and lower caste votes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India

If you are a tribal, you can study in the best educational institutions for almost free (last I remember, it was nearly $50 for the tribal and lower castes for two semesters in the state eng. colleges). In urban India, things like caste do not exist and this is the thing Naxals fear the most.

Missing the point, I think. Once tribal people are educated, to they become more receptive to externally imposed "development" - meaning dams, mines, logging, etc - or less?

I ask because I live in one of the best educated truly "tribal" areas in the world... and people here go crazy militant at the first mention of a dam or a mine. I suspect that while education might weaken a movement like the Naxalites, it's likely to dramatically strengthen the kind of protest that Medha Patkar is known for.

blueblood
12-01-2011, 12:04 PM
Missing the point, I think. Once tribal people are educated, to they become more receptive to externally imposed "development" - meaning dams, mines, logging, etc - or less?

I ask because I live in one of the best educated truly "tribal" areas in the world... and people here go crazy militant at the first mention of a dam or a mine. I suspect that while education might weaken a movement like the Naxalites, it's likely to dramatically strengthen the kind of protest that Medha Patkar is known for.

Alright, no dams and no mines. What about power plants, cotton mills and steel plants? How do you plan to employ them? If your answer is a agriculture then it's a wrong one. Killing of school teachers and blowing up railways is not exactly a right path to the empowerment of tribal.

Education and urbanization will not only weaken this movement, it will kill the ideology. As I said, no such thing as caste and creed exists in urban India. It's a bane and it exists in rural and backward parts of this nation.

The likes of Medha Patkar are here to stay and they will stay for an unknown period. In the land of Gandhi, she is breaking no rules by protesting peacefully.

Ray
12-01-2011, 08:39 PM
Just to keep the records straight, even the Indian army when combating terrorists do not use artillery, armour or air force.

It is obvious that the paramilitary follows the same and what is more they don't have these.

It is mere journalistic sensationalism to give the impression that they are 'in the know' and wish to show that they understand the military better than the readers.

In fact, in the COIN areas, artillery, armour, RCL guns, MMGs, 81mm Mortars etc are all mothballed!

Ken White
12-01-2011, 09:28 PM
In fact, in the COIN areas, artillery, armour, RCL guns, MMGs, 81mm Mortars etc are all mothballed!That is very wise.

Tools available will always be used where they should not be unless troops are truly superbly trained -- an expensive and thus understandably rare case in any Army.

If some standard tools aren't available, then better thinking and tactics are necessary -- and will generally appear...

Dayuhan
12-02-2011, 06:44 AM
Alright, no dams and no mines. What about power plants, cotton mills and steel plants? How do you plan to employ them? If your answer is a agriculture then it's a wrong one. Killing of school teachers and blowing up railways is not exactly a right path to the empowerment of tribal.

I agree that "Killing of school teachers and blowing up railways is not exactly a right path to the empowerment of tribal". Education may not necessarily lead to docile acceptance of whatever the faraway bureaucrats decide is the right way, though... and people will fight the government if they believe, accurately or not, that government is a threat to them and their way of life.

I don't think "you" should plan to employ "them". That sort of paternalistic thinking is rarely effective. I'd say provide education and infrastructure and let them sort it out. They might surprise you.


Just to keep the records straight, even the Indian army when combating terrorists do not use artillery, armour or air force.

Do you think this would change if the insurgents were stronger, better organized, better armed, and in general more of a threat? Are any of the Indian insurgencies really perceived as a threat to the state, or are they more peripheral matters of a level that can be handled by police work?

Ray
12-03-2011, 06:12 AM
Do you think this would change if the insurgents were stronger, better organized, better armed, and in general more of a threat? Are any of the Indian insurgencies really perceived as a threat to the state, or are they more peripheral matters of a level that can be handled by police work?

I don't think so.

It has been the practice ever since the start of insurgency in India, immediately after Independence.

Our police is inept.

It is only the Army that is organised to take on insurgencies.

blueblood
12-03-2011, 02:09 PM
I don't think "you" should plan to employ "them". That sort of paternalistic thinking is rarely effective. I'd say provide education and infrastructure and let them sort it out. They might surprise you.

There is a saying in Urdu, "khali dimaag shaitan ka ghar" which means when a man has nothing good to do, he'll do something evil. If you don't employ them this is what you'll get. Many Kashmiris who were throwing rocks last year are now employed by both government and small private industries. Next time these guys will be more worried about completing their targets next day than throwing stones.


Do you think this would change if the insurgents were stronger, better organized, better armed, and in general more of a threat? Are any of the Indian insurgencies really perceived as a threat to the state, or are they more peripheral matters of a level that can be handled by police work?

I am surprised, if you don't consider LET, HUJI etc to be organised then who are? Most of the early fighters were the same that Soviets fought in Astan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyas_Kashmiri

Just for example.

Ray
12-03-2011, 02:23 PM
LeT and HUJI and the others are not only well organised, well financed and well equipped, but they are govt and Army to include ISI sponsored and trained!

Bill Moore
12-03-2011, 06:07 PM
Posted by Ken,


That is very wise.

Tools available will always be used where they should not be unless troops are truly superbly trained -- an expensive and thus understandably rare case in any Army.

If some standard tools aren't available, then better thinking and tactics are necessary -- and will generally appear...

Interesting observation, and perhaps this is one reason we fail to adapt in some cases? I don't want to imply we don't adapt, because we have and do, but we may not be adapting appropriately for IW if we continue to rely "mainly" on superior fire power (intead of strategy).

Posted by Ray,

LeT and HUJI and the others are not only well organised, well financed and well equipped, but they are govt and Army to include ISI sponsored and trained!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read and understand that India had up to 20 different insurgencies/separatist movements, etc., and that approximately 13 are active now, and the greatest threat to India is the Naxolite insurgency (Maoists). While the Muslim terrorist groups conduct deep attacks throughout India, the Muslim insurgency proper is largely restricted to Kashmir. What did I get wrong?

Ray
12-03-2011, 06:22 PM
Ray,


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read and understand that India had up to 20 different insurgencies/separatist movements, etc., and that approximately 13 are active now, and the greatest threat to India is the Naxolite insurgency (Maoists). While the Muslim terrorist groups conduct deep attacks throughout India, the Muslim insurgency proper is largely restricted to Kashmir. What did I get wrong?

The insurgencies that keep India occupied is the Pakistan based terrorists who operate in Kashmir and the Maoists.

The others are dormant and some exist merely on paper.

Apart from the foreign sponsored terrorists in Kashmir, there is also the terrorist attacks in hinterland India, again organised and sponsored by Pakistan, and some of them are mounted with Indian operatives who, unfortunately are Muslims.

It has been established that China is financing and equipping the Maoists.

Maybe that is the reason why the Govt of India has suddenly taken a very strong line towards China and that has made China quite uncomfortable as they feel it India is being encouraged by the US.

Bill Moore
12-03-2011, 06:35 PM
posted by Ray,


It has been established that China is financing and equipping the Maoists.

I have always been curious about this possibility, and while the Chinese are no longer Maoists in the true sense, supporting Maoists (especially in India) would appear to be in their interests if they could do it and not get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. It has been a while, but I think I posted about it on SWJ a few years back; the Maoists in India, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka have a regional organization and used to meet annually. Suspect it was more political in nature than a war room type meeting, yet it is still interesting to see how these interests intermingle across borders in various ways.

If you can post some links on China's links to the Maoists it would be helpful, but understand if that isn't available.

Ray
12-03-2011, 06:49 PM
This maybe interesting too

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/theWeekContent.do?contentId=10550855&programId=1073755753&tabId=13&categoryId=-168061

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/theWeekContent.do?contentId=10550857&programId=1073755753&tabId=13&BV_ID=@@@&categoryId=-168061

Bill Moore
12-04-2011, 02:03 AM
Ray,

Time to update this article, since it talks about a former Bangladeshi government.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/02042011-wanted-a-policy-to-end-small-arms-smuggling-analysis/


Insurgency in many of the states of the northeastern region has finally demonstrated signs of abatement. For decades outfits thrived with their external linkages and internal support. Most of these outfits, like many insurgency movements in the world, remained personality centric. As a result, once Bangladesh started cooperating and handing over the insurgent leaders who were based in the country to India, much of the insurgencies operating in Assam and Meghalaya ran out of steam. It is Bangladesh’s cooperation, which is behind the initiation of peace talks between a faction of the ULFA and the Government of India. Bangladesh also recently handed over the Chief of United National Liberation Front (UNLF), one of the most violent groups in Manipur, to India. Prior to this, police-led operations in Tripura had neutralized the insurgency movement in Tripura. In addition, there are a host of outfits including the Naga outfits, which are under ceasefire mode and some of them are currently negotiating with the government. A conflict transformation process is underway in the volatile northeast.

A lot more in the article...

Ray
12-04-2011, 08:22 AM
Bill,

That is correct.

I was bringing out how the insurgency is kept alive in India.

Rajkhowa of ULFA was handed over to India by Bangladesh and he is talking turkey.

Yesterday's new is that Paras Baruah who is the kingpin of ULFA, which is the Assam movement, is said to have been arrested by the Myanmar junta!

He has skipped off from Bangladesh when things got hot and pushed off to China.

Things are changing.

Backwards Observer
12-04-2011, 10:26 AM
Our police is inept.

It is only the Army that is organised to take on insurgencies.


Ray, are the mass graves recently unearthed in Kashmir an example of police ineptness, or is there a more pedestrian explanation? What's your take on this?


Unmarked graves give up their shameful secrets

Every village has stories of men and boys taken from their homes and never seen again, writes Ben Doherty in northern Kashmir.

The police bring the bodies. In the day or night they bring them, wrapped loosely in blankets or in the clothes they wore.

''The bodies come in very bad condition,'' Nizar Ahmed Mir tells the Herald through an interpreter, standing on the steep slopes of the Shaheed cemetery at the end of a narrow dirt road.

''They are bloody, some are in handcuffs, the clothing is torn. Most have been shot in the face, or the face has been damaged, so they cannot be identified. We don't know who they are, we are just told to bury them.''

Unmarked graves give up their shameful secret (http://www.smh.com.au/world/unmarked-graves-give-up-their-shameful-secrets-20111111-1nb8t.html) - Sydney Morning Herald - Nov 12, 2011.

Backwards Observer
12-04-2011, 12:05 PM
Actually, Ray, never mind. I just read the comments section of the Foreign Policy Article, What Lies Beneath: Kashmir's Mass Graves Come To Light (Sept 29, 2011) (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/09/29/kashmir_mass_graves?page=full). I'm going to go ahead and guess this is somewhat of an emotionally charged issue. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need a drink.


Secondly,yes we support the government and the army in the actions taken in JK,whole heatedly.They get what they deserve.If you pretend amnesia when it comes to kashmiri pandits, then to hell with the thugs marauding as "freedom fighters".

Thirdly,please spare the Indians this psychobabble of bad governance,atrocities and duplicity.An American calling ANYONE by these names is akin to a whore cussing the virgin mary.
Last but not the least quit poking your nose where it doesnt belong.Get a life or whatever is left of it.
Last time i checked you had screwed korea,vietnam,Iraq and now afghanistan and you have the audacity to lecture the Indians,specially after what you have done to the Native Americans??..huh.. [commenter at FP]

Ray
12-04-2011, 05:52 PM
Backward Observer,

The fact that foreigners and foreign correspondents are allowed to freely move without restrictions in Kashmir should indicate that there is nothing to hide.

It maybe mentioned the same freedom to foreigners or foreign media personnel is not allowed in Pakistan's Northern Areas and there is much to write about.

That apart, many military personnel have been convicted and dismissed from service when human rights cases have been heard and proved in the Courts.

Sensational journalism cannot be curbed since India is a democratic country.

Have we not been fed with gruesome stories of human rights abuses in USSR and China in the media repeatedly and more so, through the pages of a respected and hailed magazine called the Readers Digest? I grew up on those stories.

How come China has suddenly become a place where such gruesome stories no longer surface?

The media is a great tool to 'mould' public opinion.

Remember Murdoch?

He was the paragon of virtues, right?

He only gave the truth, right?

He is the tip of the iceberg.

BTW, why was Al Jazeerah bombed during the Iraq War? I am sure it is not too difficult to guess or is it?

The article is typical of sensational news that appeals. Mention some human angle stuff, a few names and spin away.

Anyone can sit with a computer and write an article on Guantanmo, Wei Wei or any other 'hot' stuff and make it very convincing.

Because that would ruin the heart wrenching prose of his story.

How come he has failed to mention the number of military and paramilitary personnel including officers who have been jailed?

And who controls the media?

India?

Hope you enjoyed your tot of whatever you drank!

Ray
12-04-2011, 06:07 PM
Do show me a news story in the western media that is equally heart wrenching on the Kashmiri pandits (Hindus) who have been hounded out of Kashmir in a process launched with ethnic cleansing in mind?

Do show me a story which is equally heart wrenching where the Kashmir Police arrested and hounded a Christian padre for converting Muslims.

No, that would not suit the flavour of the month!

Ray
12-04-2011, 06:12 PM
Do also show me heart wrenching stories of atrocities committed by Hosni Mubarak during the era when Mubarak was the President.

or of the atrocities committed by the Bahrain Sultan on the majority Shia population when they rose in rebellion and the US assistance given to the Sultan.

Obviously, there will be very few and that would be discarded as left liberal rubbish.

Never forget, media is an important tool to push foreign policy!

Bill Moore
12-04-2011, 06:14 PM
Backwards Observer, I don't disagree with your observations, India is frequently called, "a democracy of the few, for the few." India is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, especially considering its status as an emerging superpower. In my opinion this level of corruption equates to a nation where the rule of law is near non-existent, which makes human rights violations the easier to get away with. The violations are not limited to Kashmir, and this is one of the reasons there are and have been so many insurgencies. Of course with a population of close to a billion, and a nation with 13 separate languages, and numerous religious groups with extremists in each that are intolerant of one another, plus a history of discrimination (the untouchables and other castes), the fact that India is emerging as a superpower is somewhat of a miracle.

http://www.achrweb.org/


Torture in India 2011 which is only online states that a total of 14,231 persons i.e. more than four persons per day died in police and judicial custody in India from 2001 to 2010. This includes 1,504 deaths in police custody and 12,727 deaths in judicial custody during the year 2001-2002 to February 2010. A large majority of these deaths are a direct consequence of torture in custody. But these no way reflect the extent of torture in India. These deaths as reported to the NHRC reflect only a fraction of the menace of torture and custodial deaths in India.


Since 2010, at least 12 RTI activists have been murdered for seeking information to “promote transparency and accountability in the working of every public authority” of India. Ms. Shehla Masood, a prominent woman RTI activist of Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh was murdered on 16 August 2011. She joined the growing list of RTI activists who have been murdered

The good news is many Indians are taking action against the rampant corruption, and we can hope this will result in a nation ruled by law, which in turn will better protect human rights.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16003576


The scale of corruption in modern India is astounding. The size of bribes and kickbacks is enormous, the stories of corruption astonishing, and the audacity of corruption's big players ever more apparent. India has become a great power, but it has done so without washing away the canker of corruption.


There's something refreshing about this upsurge of anti-corruption activity - and also something disturbing. As some left-wing critics are now pointing out, there's a danger that anti-corruption activists will throw the baby out with the bath water. Youth where I work in Uttar Pradesh point out that you can criticise politicians as much as you like, but at least they have been elected. Indeed, many are now seeing the Anna movement something of a corporate conspiracy.

Things are not any better in Pakistan or Bangladesh, so as we all know this is a region of the world that has immense challenges to over come.

Ray
12-04-2011, 06:38 PM
Well one can say that about any country, the US notwithstanding.

Seek and ye shall find.

Is corruption any less in the US or the law and order issues not there or is there not human rights abuses.

UPDATE 3-Thirteen charged in US microcap kickback cases
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/01/microcap-fraud-idUSN1E7B00YV20111201

Guantanamo?

One has to see the police videos of the US police in action to believe it.

The manner in which your police operates, it can't be done in India or Pakistan or even in Bangladesh.

Such highhandedness and the police will get thrashed.

I am sorry the human rights violations cannot 'go through'. We have the Right to Information Act and what you see happening in India is because it is being used extensively and the people are getting empowered and demanding to know the truth!

Bill Moore
12-04-2011, 07:22 PM
Posted by Ray,


One has to see the police videos of the US police in action to believe it.

The manner in which your police operates, it can't be done in India or Pakistan or even in Bangladesh.

Such highhandedness and the police will get thrashed.


I admit that some of our cops act inappropriately sometimes during an arrest (excessive force), but that is due to poor training, poor selection, and factors related to adrenalin during the arrest. The key is that this behavior isn't accepted as norm, but based on the excessive media coverage you would think that is the case. We don't have thousands of people die our prisons due to torture.

It is also important to point out that we publicize the violations and then take corrective action against those who violated the rules.

We don't have extralegal uprisings and insurgencies in our nation due to abuses, because our system addresses the abuses. Quite a difference.

Ray
12-04-2011, 07:33 PM
On media manipulation

How To Manipulate The Media & Get Free Publicity With Creative Marketing Ideas
http://www.jimkukral.com/how-to-manipulate-the-media-get-free-publicity-with-creative-marketing-ideas/

Weapons of Mass Disinformation

http://www.oilempire.us/media.html

"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."
-- Mark Twain

Ray
12-04-2011, 07:43 PM
Posted by Ray,




I admit that some of our cops act inappropriately sometimes during an arrest (excessive force), but that is due to poor training, poor selection, and factors related to adrenalin during the arrest. The key is that this behavior isn't accepted as norm, but based on the excessive media coverage you would think that is the case. We don't have thousands of people die our prisons due to torture.

It is also important to point out that we publicize the violations and then take corrective action against those who violated the rules.

We don't have extralegal uprisings and insurgencies in our nation due to abuses, because our system addresses the abuses. Quite a difference.

We also publicise our wrongs and take corrective actions and that is why we have no hang up over foreign media personnel going to areas where there is insurgency, knowing fully well what they will report in a sensational manner.

BBC is anti India, but they are very much in Kashmir and elsewhere. In Pakistan, they are banned!

In the case of errors with the police and others, it is the same reasons out in India - poor training, poor selection and factors related to adrenalin during the arrest, as it is in the US.

What is good for the US as reasons is good for reasons in India.

You don't have uprisings since you are not a country that has any ethnic right or majority over any part of the country, to include historical claims.

India is a multi racial, multi ethnic, multi lingual, multi religion country that is not yet developed as the US. Where there is imbalance in development, there will be strife.

Observe the EU. There are not a nation and yet they are in total disarray, each country having different ethnicity is up in arms to defend their own turf. Have a religious divide as soon it is forecast there will, if the alarming reports of the demography changing is believed and you will have the same situation as we have in India.

Already in the UK, they are in the same position as India, pandering to the vote bank i.e. appeasement. What are the riots all about in Britain? Why is the BNP slowly growing in strength? Britain never had riots till it became multi ethnic and multi religion country. And Britain is a postage stamp compared to India and having a much less population and diversity! And yet they are struggling!

Therefore, what India has achieved is commendable.

We have stayed the democratic course and not opted for a military option in governance as is the fashion in the neighbourhood!

Pakistan has insurgencies, because even though they have a common religion, they have diverse ethnicity!

Bangladesh does not have this problem because they have a common religion and ethnicity.

Therefore, there are many reasons for having insurgency and it need not be merely due to bad governance or human rights abuses! No ethnic group or religious group in a diverse mix of factors in a country likes to play the second fiddle!

We are fortunate that India has not crushed insurgencies like what they did in Sri Lanka!

Democratic norms still exist in India. Not perfect, but still worth its while!

davidbfpo
12-04-2011, 09:30 PM
Ray,

For a mix of reasons India is in my "good books" and does give one hope that everyone can peacefully share the growing economic "cake".

I don't find the BBC's limited reporting on India is spiteful, for many years I enjoyed Mark Tully's reporting on a land of contrasts.

Amidst your post was this, which caught my Anglo-centric eye:
Already in the UK, they are in the same position as India, pandering to the vote bank i.e. appeasement. What are the riots all about in Britain? Why is the BNP slowly growing in strength? Britain never had riots till it became multi ethnic and multi religion country. And Britain is a postage stamp compared to India and having a much less population and diversity! And yet they are struggling!

Politicians when facing a democratic, free electorate will always be accused of 'pandering', even 'appeasement' although that remains a bad word here.

The five days in August 2012 when we saw limited, high profile urban rioting in England only was a shock to many and politically has all the appearance of having been forgotten already. This link may explain much of the why and how:http://www.5daysinaugust.co.uk/

The BNP, an extreme nationalist party, is not 'growing in strength'. Yes it did get a significant vote in the last European elections, in two northern English seats, IIRC 400k votes. Since then the leadership has fractionated, it's finances are a mess and subject to a police and EU investigation. Dip into this partial, but respected watcher:http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/

The UK has a long history of rioting and one of my best reads is 'Police & Protest in England & Ireland 1780-1850' by Stanley Palmer, an eight hundred page tome. Quite often English rioting was religious in origin for example the Priestley rioting in Birmingham:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestley_Riots

Before 1914 agitation and militancy by the newly capable trade union movement and other political factors brought the country to a near revolutionary time. Yes there was IIRC a Chinese factor, a myth that Chines labourers would arrive and work in the coal mines.

Yes we are a small country and with a growing population - eighty million by 2056 and so could become the sixth most crowded country in the world. For a very partial glimpse:http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/

Struggling? Yes. Not on your described scale though Ray. The wartime slogan 'Keep Calm and Carry On' remains valid.

Bill Moore
12-05-2011, 12:02 AM
posted by Ray,


India is a multi racial, multi ethnic, multi lingual, multi religion country that is not yet developed as the US. Where there is imbalance in development, there will be strife.

Observe the EU. There are not a nation and yet they are in total disarray, each country having different ethnicity is up in arms to defend their own turf. Have a religious divide as soon it is forecast there will, if the alarming reports of the demography changing is believed and you will have the same situation as we have in India.

Already in the UK, they are in the same position as India, pandering to the vote bank i.e. appeasement. What are the riots all about in Britain? Why is the BNP slowly growing in strength? Britain never had riots till it became multi ethnic and multi religion country. And Britain is a postage stamp compared to India and having a much less population and diversity! And yet they are struggling!

Therefore, what India has achieved is commendable.

We have stayed the democratic course and not opted for a military option in governance as is the fashion in the neighbourhood!

Pakistan has insurgencies, because even though they have a common religion, they have diverse ethnicity!

Bangladesh does not have this problem because they have a common religion and ethnicity.

Therefore, there are many reasons for having insurgency and it need not be merely due to bad governance or human rights abuses! No ethnic group or religious group in a diverse mix of factors in a country likes to play the second fiddle!

We are fortunate that India has not crushed insurgencies like what they did in Sri Lanka!

Democratic norms still exist in India. Not perfect, but still worth its while!


Ray, I agree with most of what you wrote, and as I wrote earlier it is a miracle that India had progressed as far as it has (and should continue to progress) based on the challenges you listed. You can also add as a challenge your neighbors, but perhaps that would be impolite.

A couple of points I disagree with is your comment on the EU. They are having a lively political debate, but they are not up in an arms. Any debate and protest done legally is not an insurgency, but normal and healthy politics.
Where the EU goes in the future is anyone's guess, and some have suggested this the beginning of a return to the old Europe which had a long history of war between their states. I don't think so, but then again who really knows.

Bangladesh has made a lot of headway, but I think HUJI-B and JMB can still be considered insurgents. As you know ethnic divisions are not the only reason for insurgencies, although ethnic groups remain one of the easier groups to mobilize based on identity.

As for the media being misleading, that has always been true, but at the same time simply dismissing reports as inaccurate, especially when they're serious allegations isn't helpful. The Human Rights Violations study was not put together by BBC.

Backwards Observer
12-05-2011, 02:21 AM
How come China has suddenly become a place where such gruesome stories no longer surface?

I dunno, dead men tell no tales?

Ray, India just got crowned prom queen of Asia; the judges even renamed the region the 'Indo-Pacific' to make you feel extra-special. To show your appreciation for the uranium deal, you fired off the Agni IV, 'China Killer', quite a witty move, in my pointless opinion. I don't think the West is going to be pushing you too hard on anything, you're the world's largest democracy! Relax and enjoy!:D

Now, if you'll excuse me, it's morning here in the antipodes, I need a drink.

Dayuhan
12-05-2011, 02:54 AM
There is a saying in Urdu, "khali dimaag shaitan ka ghar" which means when a man has nothing good to do, he'll do something evil. If you don't employ them this is what you'll get. Many Kashmiris who were throwing rocks last year are now employed by both government and small private industries. Next time these guys will be more worried about completing their targets next day than throwing stones.

Certainly it is good for people to be employed. My suggestion was that an indigenous economy under local control can be fostered by the development of education and infrastructure, and that this will be more stable and less likely to produce a violent backlash than attempts by outside parties to employ "them". Tribal areas typically - and for good reason - see government and outside investors as internal colonists bent on exploitation.


I am surprised, if you don't consider LET, HUJI etc to be organised then who are? Most of the early fighters were the same that Soviets fought in Astan.

I would consider LeT and HUJI to be Pakistan-based terrorist organizations, not Indian insurgencies.

Ray
12-05-2011, 06:34 AM
Ray,

For a mix of reasons India is in my "good books" and does give one hope that everyone can peacefully share the growing economic "cake".

That is not really feasible with the present infrastructure and the Govt must take a fair share of the blame.

The remote areas are not well connected and the terrain is inhospitable. Then there is this policy of not disturbing the indigenous culture, customs and traditions of the tribal and hill folks.

To a great extent, the rise of the Maoist can be attributed to industry and mining taking place in these tribal and thus virgin areas and disturbing the lifestyle of the tribal people.

Indeed, there are so many contradictions that has to be balanced that the whole issue of development is lopsided.


I don't find the BBC's limited reporting on India is spiteful, for many years I enjoyed Mark Tully's reporting on a land of contrasts.

Mark Tully is more Indian than British! :D

He lives in India and goes on holidays to the UK. He speaks the language and dresses in the most casual dresses of rural India! Of course, not in a loin cloth! He is too British to do that and he called the 'half naked fakir of India', as Mahatma Gandhi was called by Churchill. :p

I could tell you much about the manner of BBC reporting in Kashmir. But I will give it a go by.



Amidst your post was this, which caught my Anglo-centric eye:

Politicians when facing a democratic, free electorate will always be accused of 'pandering', even 'appeasement' although that remains a bad word here.

The five days in August 2012 when we saw limited, high profile urban rioting in England only was a shock to many and politically has all the appearance of having been forgotten already. This link may explain much of the why and how:http://www.5daysinaugust.co.uk/


It is not merely the latest riot.

Trace the history of riots (racial) in the UK.

All took place when the UK became politically correct and immigrants came in droves.


The BNP, an extreme nationalist party, is not 'growing in strength'. Yes it did get a significant vote in the last European elections, in two northern English seats, IIRC 400k votes. Since then the leadership has fractionated, it's finances are a mess and subject to a police and EU investigation. Dip into this partial, but respected watcher:http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/

I am not surprised that BNP is increasing its clout.

If one find one's native culture and custom is being swamped, the reaction of the original native population of Britain will naturally be upset leading to closing of ranks. It is quite natural.

For instance, anyone would be absolutely horrified if all traffic is brought to a halt because some people have to read the namaz on the road because there is no space in the Mosque.

I don't find the British anger odd when they find that their girls are sexually assaulted, while those assaulting cloister their girls from the 'evil' natives of the land! It has been reported in the media to include youtube.

Jack Straw, the ex Foreign Secretary was not far from the truth when he gave what some felt was a Politically Incorrect statement. And Jack Straw was once dubbed as 'Ayotollah Straw' since he was very pro Minority.

Or the outburst of that woman on the tram (widely shown on Youtube).


The UK has a long history of rioting and one of my best reads is 'Police & Protest in England & Ireland 1780-1850' by Stanley Palmer, an eight hundred page tome. Quite often English rioting was religious in origin for example the Priestley rioting in Birmingham:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestley_Riots

Before 1914 agitation and militancy by the newly capable trade union movement and other political factors brought the country to a near revolutionary time. Yes there was IIRC a Chinese factor, a myth that Chines labourers would arrive and work in the coal mines.

These riotings are for economic reasons and not racial as such.

Now, it is racial and demanding their 'rights' (religious and otherwise) and superseding the local customs, traditions and way of life.


Yes we are a small country and with a growing population - eighty million by 2056 and so could become the sixth most crowded country in the world. For a very partial glimpse:http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/

Struggling? Yes. Not on your described scale though Ray. The wartime slogan 'Keep Calm and Carry On' remains valid.

Struggling? Yes. What I meant is that there is a serious search of identity because it is being swamped by a whole lot of immigrants, not only from Asia, Africa, but also Europe.

Ray
12-05-2011, 07:03 AM
posted by Ray,




Ray, I agree with most of what you wrote, and as I wrote earlier it is a miracle that India had progressed as far as it has (and should continue to progress) based on the challenges you listed. You can also add as a challenge your neighbors, but perhaps that would be impolite.

A couple of points I disagree with is your comment on the EU. They are having a lively political debate, but they are not up in an arms. Any debate and protest done legally is not an insurgency, but normal and healthy politics.

Where the EU goes in the future is anyone's guess, and some have suggested this the beginning of a return to the old Europe which had a long history of war between their states. I don't think so, but then again who really knows.

Up in arms maybe overdoing it like the media! ;) :D

I was only going by the chaos going on and each nation blaming the other.

Iain Duncan Smith has called for a referendum on any change in the Treaty.

There is talk about eurozone crisis resulting in its breakup.

True, it is not an insurgency, but it nonetheless is chaos generating that can lead to instability and who knows what lies ahead in the long term scenario.

Thoughts such as The bigger truth is that years of neoliberalism and deregulation have left us with a weak economy. We are stronger than Mediterranean states, which used the euro as an excuse to relax and splurge. But we are a lot weaker than Germany, which invested properly in training and technology, whose banking system stuck with manufacturing, and whose people continued to save for rainy days rather than borrow and gamble. If Germany is calling the shots it's because Germany has earned the right to lecture the rest. does not give confidence that all will be well in the future.


Bangladesh has made a lot of headway, but I think HUJI-B and JMB can still be considered insurgents. As you know ethnic divisions are not the only reason for insurgencies, although ethnic groups remain one of the easier groups to mobilize based on identity.

Ethnic diversity in large countries, apart from economic disadvantages, does play a major role in giving rise to insurgencies. That has been the experience in Asia and Africa.


As for the media being misleading, that has always been true, but at the same time simply dismissing reports as inaccurate, especially when they're serious allegations isn't helpful. The Human Rights Violations study was not put together by BBC.

I don't think I have suggested that reports should be dismissed. They have to be taken cognisance of and the wheat must be sifted from the chaff by the authorities.

As far as the Human Rights body, they have their own agenda and desperate to be relevant as Pollyannas.

The Times accuses HRW of filling its staff with former radical political activists including Joe Stork and Sarah Leah Whitson, writing, "theoretically an organization like HRW would not select as its researchers people who are so evidently on one side.

HRW has been accused of bias in gathering evidence because it is said to be "credulous of civilian witnesses in places like Gaza and Afghanistan" but "sceptical of anyone in a uniform."
HRW (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7076462.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1/Nazi)

Claims have been made regarding alleged HRW bias with regards to Haiti, Venezuela and Honduras. Robert Naiman, policy director of Just Foreign Policy, has claimed that HRW is "often heavily influenced" by United States government policy.

I am sure we will not hear of the repression of the Shias in Bahrain from the HRW!
Link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/latin-america-scholars-ur_b_265282.html)

Ray
12-05-2011, 07:09 AM
I dunno, dead men tell no tales?

Ray, India just got crowned prom queen of Asia; the judges even renamed the region the 'Indo-Pacific' to make you feel extra-special. To show your appreciation for the uranium deal, you fired off the Agni IV, 'China Killer', quite a witty move, in my pointless opinion. I don't think the West is going to be pushing you too hard on anything, you're the world's largest democracy! Relax and enjoy!:D

Now, if you'll excuse me, it's morning here in the antipodes, I need a drink.

Semantics does not really matter.

Indo Pacific is possibly a derivative from the Oceans of the region that matter for the US. I wonder if it is India centric. But then India does worry some people!

Uranium deal is no great shakes either.

Agni IV is what is known as an instrument for a balance of power. If China did not have it, where is the requirement for such a waste of money? Now, tell us who does China fear to have their own Agni? It is after all a Peace loving country!! Or so they claim and tomtom on the rooftops and hector others to save the money for their poor and hungry! China, of course, has no poverty and they are all millionaires! The ideal nation in the world from where the rich Chinese are emigrating!

Not to worry about the world largest democracy. One has to observe the Most Peaceful Rise of Chin, where it claims the complete Pacific, so to say, and then uses muscle power till Uncle Sam joins the show and wonders at the Peaceful Rise and the reach of the real prom Queen and toast of the Century! :eek::D

Well, you seem to enjoy being in the cups! :p

Backwards Observer
12-05-2011, 09:11 AM
...the real prom Queen and toast of the Century!

Ray, do you think the Western press is unfair to India? Have you noticed how they tend to write about each other? Perhaps I'm misreading your comment , but by 'toast of the Century', you seem to be suggesting that China is universally lauded by the Western press.

In the last year or so, China has been compared to Imperial Japan, Imperial Germany, Nazi Germany and the 'Evil Empire'-era Soviet Union. This seems to suggest an alternative meaning to 'toast' at the very least.

Nevertheless, being a superpower or superpower-in-waiting seems to be accompanied by a rising sense of persecution, in that perhaps they have something in common with lesser powers, after all.


Well, you seem to enjoy being in the cups!

Well, it was actually a refreshing, chilled grapefruit beverage. Or, as a William F. Owen might put it, a cup of molten steel!

Ray
12-05-2011, 07:50 PM
Ray, do you think the Western press is unfair to India? Have you noticed how they tend to write about each other? Perhaps I'm misreading your comment , but by 'toast of the Century', you seem to be suggesting that China is universally lauded by the Western press.

In the last year or so, China has been compared to Imperial Japan, Imperial Germany, Nazi Germany and the 'Evil Empire'-era Soviet Union. This seems to suggest an alternative meaning to 'toast' at the very least.

Nevertheless, being a superpower or superpower-in-waiting seems to be accompanied by a rising sense of persecution, in that perhaps they have something in common with lesser powers, after all.



Well, it was actually a refreshing, chilled grapefruit beverage. Or, as a William F. Owen might put it, a cup of molten steel!

I seem to have missed all those negative connotation of what China is, in actuality as per the western media.

I am only aware of the praises of China, to include the BBC programme Horizon that I saw last night, which stated that China was the future of the next Century!

tequila
12-05-2011, 08:30 PM
I think you must not read much American media. The tone of coverage towards China is a mix of fascination mixed with fear. The better informed observers note China's enormous internal problems along with its impressive growth.

HRW has issued reports and press releases regarding Bahrain's repression of its demonstrations, the same as they have done for other HR violations. I'm a bit confused at why you would insist that they wouldn't do so:

http://www.hrw.org/middle-eastn-africa/bahrain

davidbfpo
12-05-2011, 09:28 PM
An Indian expert's commentary on the Indian state police and counter-terrorism:http://www.sunday-guardian.com/analysis/thanas-are-not-equipped-to-counter-terrorism

Which ends with:
It is high time we also brought in some innovations rather than chanting the mantra of the thanedar resisting terrorist attacks.

Dayuhan
12-05-2011, 10:15 PM
I seem to have missed all those negative connotation of what China is, in actuality as per the western media.

I am only aware of the praises of China, to include the BBC programme Horizon that I saw last night, which stated that China was the future of the next Century!

There's a great deal of Sinophobia in the US media, including among the commentariat. Much of it is pretty irrational, but phobias usually are. Politicians often find it expedient to direct attention toward an external bogeyman, lest the populace look for a domestic one.

omarali50
12-06-2011, 05:50 AM
I am very "indophilic" myself and am perfectly happy with India's prom queen status, so consider this friendly advice: one step India REALLY needs to take is to grow up about criticism and differentiate between malign criticism (examples can be found in the Pakistani press, and maybe in some extremist evangelical journals), careless criticism that lazily repeats stereotypes but is not fundamentally ill-intentioned (examples abound in the mainstream press) and constructive criticism.
A certain passive-aggressive prickliness is seen in all third world countries, but wouldnt it be great if an "emerging power" pulled away from relatively childish behavior and responded with more finesse and grace?
This is meant to be constructive criticism. Honestly.

Ray
12-06-2011, 03:09 PM
I think you must not read much American media. The tone of coverage towards China is a mix of fascination mixed with fear. The better informed observers note China's enormous internal problems along with its impressive growth.

HRW has issued reports and press releases regarding Bahrain's repression of its demonstrations, the same as they have done for other HR violations. I'm a bit confused at why you would insist that they wouldn't do so:

http://www.hrw.org/middle-eastn-africa/bahrain

It is a good advice not to read the US media.

Unfortunately, the world is dependent on western media agencies for news because the domestic media does not have the finances to man media sources around the world or have reporters covering the globe.

Even on the internet since one is not conversant with the local languages, one cannot cull news first hand.

Therefore, there is no option but to read news obtained by our newspapers from western sources and also be influenced by opinions expressed thereof.

It is not easy for us out here not be influenced by western agencies reports and views.

Catch 22 for us.


What the HRW has reported in Bahrain is a weak report. The people coming from Bahrain have a different story to tell. If you see the news of today (Muharram) you will find the massacres unleashed by the Sunnis on the Shias. Does the HRW care about this? Selective attention is what it appears to be. You will know only about the massacre in Afghanistan done yesterday (?) since the western agencies are concerned about that.

Read the vernacular media of Pakistan. But then you cannot read it since you are not versed in Urdu, neither I can read it. What is said to be written is hearsay and none can go by that.

Has the HRW made capital of the atrocities in the Pakistan Occupied Northern Area (Balwaristan) which is Shia majority and are treated as second class and persecuted? Or the fact that the Pakistan Govt is changing the demography by settling Sunnis in Balwaristan.

Has the HRW reported on how Hindu women in Pakistan are being whisked away and converted in Islam and married off to Muslim. Right now, there is a whole lot of such Hindus who have come en mass and are refusing to return. Check the news. It maybe added, as it is, the Pakistanis have ensured that the Hindu, Christian or Parsi minority become a vanishing breed! Check the statistics from the time of Independence and now!

Therefore, HRW maybe wonderful for the western people, it does not enjoy the same wonderment in other parts of the world!

In so far as Kashmir is concerned, I have been there for a very long time in aggregate and various phases of the insurgency. On the so called massacres, it can be speculated as to who is responsible. It is not the terrorists are pure as driven snow. They have massacred many and where the graves of those they have killed one does not know. Then there were the surrendered or returned (from Pakistan) terrorists. They were formed into a group to take on the terrorists. They may have settled accounts.

The Hurriyat which is an organisation that is pro Pakistan and of which a part wants Kashmir to be with Pakistan and the others want Independence. They organise all the anti Govt movements and stone pelting. They pin anything and every thing on the Army since that gives political mileage and international attention. Therefore, it would be surprising if their people would not claim that the massacres are by the Indian Army. And such claims naturally make 'good copy' for the international media.

Ray
12-06-2011, 03:15 PM
There's a great deal of Sinophobia in the US media, including among the commentariat. Much of it is pretty irrational, but phobias usually are. Politicians often find it expedient to direct attention toward an external bogeyman, lest the populace look for a domestic one.

As I said before, we are captive to western agencies reports and, like it or not, it influences our point of view.

It is the same way, the HRW is taken to be an honest, independent agency!!

Those who have seen them operate alone know how much is the wheat and how much is the chaff!

Ray
12-06-2011, 03:24 PM
An Indian expert's commentary on the Indian state police and counter-terrorism:http://www.sunday-guardian.com/analysis/thanas-are-not-equipped-to-counter-terrorism

Which ends with:

Davidbfpo,

The article should be adequate proof that our Home Ministry (something like the US Homeland Security) has no clue about terrorism or how to handle it.

The reason is very simple. None of our Ministers have had any military experience, hence they think that a police chap with a rifle is some sort of a bulwark between the terrorists and the population!

Ray
12-06-2011, 03:43 PM
I am very "indophilic" myself and am perfectly happy with India's prom queen status, so consider this friendly advice: one step India REALLY needs to take is to grow up about criticism and differentiate between malign criticism (examples can be found in the Pakistani press, and maybe in some extremist evangelical journals), careless criticism that lazily repeats stereotypes but is not fundamentally ill-intentioned (examples abound in the mainstream press) and constructive criticism.
A certain passive-aggressive prickliness is seen in all third world countries, but wouldnt it be great if an "emerging power" pulled away from relatively childish behavior and responded with more finesse and grace?
This is meant to be constructive criticism. Honestly.

Well, I would beg to differ on the issue of India and the prom status. Since you are a Pakistani, you would understand that it is all phook. Massaging India's ego and encouraging false aura.

It is this inane idea that India is on the way to becoming a superpower and is the prom queen that veers issues from the stark reality.

The gullible, the confused and the insecure swallow it hook, line and sinker!

It is all very good to talk about 'prickly', 'passive aggressiveness', 'stereotype', 'childish behaviour', 'respond with finesse and grace' Semantics!

Only the wearer knows where the shoe pinches.

I maybe wrong, but I have found that the Westernised Oriental Gentleman (who occasionally visits the homeland, gleans 'facts' from interaction with the drawing room elite circuit and then posture that they are 'in the know'), tend to exhibit traits of thinking from a westernised mindset. It endears them to the western audience, and at the same time is quite fascinating to the gawking natives and so it become fashionable. I see and hear them on the TV debates out here and find it so amusing! It is almost appear as genuine in belief as Palin seeing Russia from her window!

Of course, there will also be those who are quite knowledgeable too and yet live in foreign shores.

Ray
12-06-2011, 03:56 PM
I marvel at the way Mansoor Ijaz set the cat amongst the pigeons in Memogate and claimed that it was to leash the ISI and the Army.

He, to use an Americanism, spoke from both sides of his mouth!

A good WOG!

As they say in Punjabi - Ai bhi wah wah, tan bhi wah wah!

Backwards Observer
12-06-2011, 05:05 PM
Western media tool Noam Chomsky speaks briefly on Kashmir:


SP - Prof Chomsky, Arundhati Roy was pressed with sedition charges for speaking on Kashmiri people’s right to self-determination. What is your take on self-determination, especially in the context of Kashmir?

NC - First I should say that Arundhati Roy should be greatly honored in India as a symbol of what could be great about the country. The fact that she is being charged with Sedition is utter outrage. And the anger and hatred that’s being organized against her is a real disgrace. But that’s Arundhati Roy, a marvelous person.

With regard to Kashmir, problems go back to the Partition. And there is plenty of responsibility on all sides. Keeping to India, India, of course refused to allow the referendum that was a condition on partition. (Thus, India) essentially took over the territory and (subsequent) conflict led to a Line of Control. There has been plenty of repression and violence. In late 1980’s there was an election but it was totally fraudulent. It led to an uprising which was put down with extreme violence. Tens of thousands of people have been killed in the Indian controlled areas of Kashmir. Tortures, atrocities have been pretty horrible.

Noam Chomsky on the Situation in Africa and the Middle East (http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=2011032700) - Infoshop News - Mar 27, 2011.

Ray
12-06-2011, 06:18 PM
Chomsky is an old man.

We respect age, but not necessarily the views.

Arundhuti Roy is a nice person.

She gives a very lurid and pornographic impression of her mother in her book, which made her a One Book Wonder.

She requires to remain relevant and what better than being fashionably pandering to 'India being a country where the half naked natives scamper in the bush'.

Chomsky is a western media tool? You live in China to believe that?

But then China is such a paragon of virtues!

Ray
12-06-2011, 06:23 PM
I do hope you know the parameters of the Plebiscite.

If it is fulfilled, then lets have one!

Be good enough to fish out what Chomsky has to say of the US and China.

Ray
12-06-2011, 06:30 PM
Backward,

In three resolutions, the UN Security Council and the United Nations Commission in India and Pakistan recommended that as already agreed by Indian and Pakistani leaders, a plebiscite should be held to determine the future allegiance of the entire state.

As a prerequisite they required Pakistani nationals and tribesmen, who had come to fight in Kashmir, be withdrawn.

Plebiscite abandoned

But in the 1950s, the Indian Government distanced itself from its commitment to hold a plebiscite.

This was firstly because Pakistani forces had not been withdrawn and secondly because elections affirming the state's status as part of India had been held.

I am quoting from BBC - the western media which seems to be your staple!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1766582.stm

It is time to educate oneself before commenting!

Ray
12-06-2011, 06:42 PM
In late 1980’s there was an election but it was totally fraudulent.

It is all about perceptions.

The country that is the champion of Freedom and Democracy and which hectors all, also was said to have elected its President in a fraudulent way.

Bush and Florida where his brother was the Governor! Fraudulent and rigging and nepotism?

What do you say on that?

US may have reconciled to it, but we feel it was a wholesale fraud.

And if we controlled the world media and opinion as the US does, it would stick and become the Gospel Truth!

So, one has to use one's insight to realise what is the reality and what is fantasy.

Even Putin is being bamboozled for fraud on the recent election.

So, only the western countries are the real second coming of Jesus?

I wonder what Mao said. He said the Chinese are frogs in the well!

He maybe hailed as the Great Helmsman by the subservient Chinese honed into submission by the Theory of Legalism, but is he correct?

Maybe you would be delighted if the world (except China) had leader like that drunken Yeltsin, who for a bottle of vodka would sell his country!

Backwards Observer
12-07-2011, 01:12 AM
In so far as Kashmir is concerned, I have been there for a very long time in aggregate and various phases of the insurgency. On the so called massacres, it can be speculated as to who is responsible. It is not the terrorists are pure as driven snow. They have massacred many and where the graves of those they have killed one does not know. Then there were the surrendered or returned (from Pakistan) terrorists. They were formed into a group to take on the terrorists. They may have settled accounts.

Ray, a colourful and vibrant series of posts from you!:) I'll just say that I thought your explanation here sounded plausible. I trust that a thorough and transparent investigation will bear you out. Now don't let me interrupt you, you seem to be enjoying yourself.:rolleyes:

Dayuhan
12-07-2011, 02:53 AM
And if we controlled the world media and opinion as the US does, it would stick and become the Gospel Truth!

If the US controls world opinion, how come everybody thinks we're assholes? Just sayin', you know... it seems like a strange way to use control. You'd think we'd use that control to make somebody somewhere like us. Maybe it's all part of some Grand Sinister Conspiracy.


So, one has to use one's insight to realise what is the reality and what is fantasy.

And of course one's insight is invariably free of prejudice and preconception...


So, only the western countries are the real second coming of Jesus?

Neither Jesus nor Satan, just another bunch of clumsy folks trying to get by and occasionally making a mess. Doesn't seem so hard to figure that out, unless you really really want to see one extreme or the other.

Backwards Observer
12-07-2011, 04:26 AM
From the always entertaining Heritage Foundation:


US-Australia-India: A possible new alliance

It is wrong to view the proposed India-Australia-US cooperation agreement as a military pact being planned to contain the rising influence of China.

[..]

Some of the media coverage of the prospects for US-India-Australia trilateral cooperation is misleading. No one in his or her right mind believes a trilateral ‘security pact’ is in the offing. The goal is really to promote a stable and predictable order in the Indo-Pacific.

[...]

The US, Australia and India have ‘intersecting’, not ‘identical’ interests. There are things we disagree on. Geography alone dictates that we see the world from slightly different angles. But there is enough commonality in our world views and our challenges that we should consider those areas where our perspectives do overlap and work together where it is in our mutual interest.

(Lisa Curtis is Senior Research Fellow and Walter Lohman is Director, Asian Studies, with the Heritage Foundation.)

US-Australia-India: A possible new alliance (http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/item/50624-us-australia-india-a-possible-new-alliance.html) - The Pioneer - Dec 6, 2011.

Stable and predictable...yeah, and maybe I'm a Chinese jet pilot.:rolleyes:

maybe I'm a chinese jet pilot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2x2Xqt2NGg) - youtube

Ray
12-07-2011, 06:19 AM
If the US controls world opinion, how come everybody thinks we're assholes? Just sayin', you know... it seems like a strange way to use control. You'd think we'd use that control to make somebody somewhere like us. Maybe it's all part of some Grand Sinister Conspiracy.

I would not use such a term for the US, since in our part of the world, it is rather offensive a word.

Even though the opinion of many is shaped by news and commentaries of the western agencies and think tanks, it is only when one finds incongruity in the word and deed that one revises one's opinion.

For instance bringing Freedom and Democracy to Iraq, when Rwanda and Zimbabwe were witnessing worse human rights atrocities. And when WMD was not found in Iraq inspite of repeated assertions, one realised that one has been taken for a ride.


On the issue of Grand Conspiracy:

You may like to see the turmoil going on currently in India on Retail in FDI. Likewise, Monsanto seeds were touted as the saviour of Indian agriculture with lot of western hype and also touted by the Indian business lobby and all that came about was that it has only caused a whole lot of farmers suicides.

Many years ago, PL 480 wheat from the US gave rise to the epidemic caused by Congress grass brought in by the contaminated wheat!

I would not call it any conspiracy, grand or otherwise.

Ray
12-07-2011, 06:26 AM
Backward,

You have to know India to understand India.

It is good that you have posted this link

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/item/50624-us-australia-india-a-possible-new-alliance.html

But have you no comments or wise analysis to make except a vague 'Stable and Predictable.......yeah, maybe I am a Chinese jet pilot'?

Not much to go by unless you are the type who is merely enamoured with the tote count! :rofl:

Backwards Observer
12-07-2011, 07:09 AM
But have you no comments or wise analysis to make except a vague 'Stable and Predictable.......yeah, maybe I am a Chinese jet pilot'?

Not much to go by unless you are the type who is merely enamoured with the tote count! :rofl:

Ray, a fair point! I've decided to take your advice above and educate myself before commenting. Lacking your enviable mental agility, I fear that I may find it more educational to read your posts than to respond to them.:)

Somewhat off-topic, and if I recall correctly you self-identify as a Christian so you may not be able to answer this, but do you think the Buddha is an avatar of Vishnu?

Ray
12-07-2011, 01:17 PM
I would not know. It is not material for me to know in my country; India is a secular country. Each to his own belief.

However, I am a bit perplexed as to what has Buddha, Vishnu got to with Indian insurgencies.

SWJ Blog
12-07-2011, 01:50 PM
Long Live Mao: Modern Insurgency in the Republic of India (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/long-live-mao-modern-insurgency-in-the-republic-of-india)

Entry Excerpt:



--------
Read the full post (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/long-live-mao-modern-insurgency-in-the-republic-of-india) and make any comments at the SWJ Blog (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog).
This forum is a feed only and is closed to user comments.

SWJ Blog
12-07-2011, 01:50 PM
Mod's Note: Copied to thread for reference, the primary venue for responses is on SWJ Blog.

Long Live Mao: Modern Insurgency in the Republic of India (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/long-live-mao-modern-insurgency-in-the-republic-of-india)

Entry Excerpt:



--------
Read the full post (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/long-live-mao-modern-insurgency-in-the-republic-of-india) and make any comments at the SWJ Blog (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog).
This forum is a feed only and is closed to user comments.

Backwards Observer
12-07-2011, 02:02 PM
I would not know. It is not material for me to know in my country; India is a secular country. Each to his own belief.

However, I am a bit perplexed as to what has Buddha, Vishnu got to with Indian insurgencies.

Well, from what little I know of the subject, Buddhism presented a direct challenge to the dominant traditions of Hinduism. The response by Hinduism was to more or less absorb Buddhism, mainly through the designation of the Buddha as the twenty-fourth avatar of Vishnu.

Not essentially a topic of insurgency, just something I was curious about and I thought you might have an insight. Thanks for your reply.

Now back to your regular schedule of Western media angst and Sinophobic China-bashing!:)

Ray
12-07-2011, 02:36 PM
Well, from what little I know of the subject, Buddhism presented a direct challenge to the dominant traditions of Hinduism. The response by Hinduism was to more or less absorb Buddhism, mainly through the designation of the Buddha as the twenty-fourth avatar of Vishnu.

Not essentially a topic of insurgency, just something I was curious about and I thought you might have an insight. Thanks for your reply.

Now back to your regular schedule of Western media angst and Sinophobic China-bashing!:)

Buddhism or any other religion with origin in India had coexisted through centuries with Hinduism.

Do start a thread on India and its history instead of mixing issues, unless you have some good reason or agenda behind it! ;)

I am sure if you do, someone who is more conversant with the same would enlighten you.

One does not have to bash China. One would feel that it is but self flagellation that they do. Or else why claim half the world as yours i.e. China's?

BTW it might bring joy. Hu has told China to rapidly modernise their navy and be prepared for warfare.

This has been reported by a Sydney newspaper.

You being in Australia can check that out!

Don't worry about the Indo US equation. Last heard is that is a 'strategic relationship'! Take it for what it is worth! :)

I apologise that I do not have unique expertise of stating issues in a round about way, wherein is what is to be said is said, and yet it is not said so clearly.

Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.
Sun Tzu

I do admire the Chinese and those who can emulate them.

Hopefully one day I will learn how not to be colourful or vibrant as so succinctly put by you!

Ray
12-07-2011, 04:37 PM
NGOs tend to follow the behaviour of their back donors......However, since those donors who are interested in the politics and is least interested in the poverty, are also the most reluctant to also provide with any extra room for manoeuvre.......

Link (http://books.google.co.in/books?id=HwUIFZcCYO4C&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=Foreign+NGO+aid+actually+goes+back+in+pays+and+ perks&source=bl&ots=_Hbrh99o6w&sig=IYuzwnPoNLolUi3kmop42X7mGhw&hl=en&ei=2JPfTrfrIIjwrQexp73eCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CFwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Foreign%20NGO%20aid%20actually%20goes%20back%20i n%20pays%20and%20perks&f=false)

The operative words are - politics and least interested in poverty!

In short - promote their agenda!

EU has recently announced that it will stop aid to India, China and Brazil amongst others.

http://www.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/EU-to-cut-aid-to-19-emerging-countries-from-China-to-Brazil/articleshow/11020436.cms

A good thing actually.

SWJ Blog
12-07-2011, 06:21 PM
Counterinsurgency in India: The Maoists (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/counterinsurgency-in-india-the-maoists)

Entry Excerpt:



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SWJ Blog
12-07-2011, 06:21 PM
Mod's Note: Copied to thread for reference, the primary venue for responses is on SWJ Blog.

Counterinsurgency in India: The Maoists (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/counterinsurgency-in-india-the-maoists)

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/an-insurgency-overlooked-india-and-the-naxalites



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Ray
12-08-2011, 05:50 AM
On Kashmir insurgency and how it is showcased.

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-how-isi-spy-fai-pushed-anti-india-agenda-in-us/20111208.htm

SWJ Blog
12-08-2011, 02:00 PM
An Insurgency Overlooked: India and the Naxalites (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/an-insurgency-overlooked-india-and-the-naxalites)

Entry Excerpt:



--------
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Ray
12-16-2011, 03:23 AM
KASHMIR: In "Srinagar" a youth killed for defying stone pelters(the separatists)

n what is a shocking incident, Tariq Ahmad Bhat, 25, was beaten by stone-pelters at Gojwara in Srinagar on Dec 3, 2011, when he refused to shut down his shop in response to a separatist-called shutdown....


High tension gripped the old city areas of Srinagar as the news spread about the death of a local young man beaten by some stone-pelters. Tariq Ahmad Bhat, 25, was beaten by stone-pelters in the Gojwara neighbourhood of the old city on December 3, 2011, when he refused to shut down his shop in response to a separatist-called shutdown.

He was reportedly hit on the head with a cricket bat. Tariq was admitted to a local hospital where he battled for life for the last eleven days.

http://www.timesnow.tv/

http://www.timesnow.tv/Srinagar-Killed-for-defying-stone-pelters/articleshow/4391427.cms

blueblood
01-27-2012, 07:10 PM
Assam: 1855 militants surrender before Chidambaram IBNLive.com PTI Guwahati: In one of the largest surrender ceremonies in the North East region, 1855 militants belonging to nine groups on Tuesday bid a farewell to arms before Union Home Minister P Chidambaram and received roses for weapons turned in.

http://newsmaster.in/?p=50717

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia-pacific/hundreds-of-ex-rebels-in-northeast-india-surrender-weapons-in-deal-to-launch-peace-talks/2012/01/24/gIQAD7KnMQ_story.html

davidbfpo
05-01-2012, 07:02 PM
Attached is an Indian book review of 'Terrorism - Patterns of Internationalisation', by Jaideep Saikia and Ekaterina Stepanova, pub.2009, added here as it reflects the reviewer's outlook, as a senior retired police & intelligence officer.

Link to:http://www.amazon.com/Terrorism-Patterns-Internationalization-Jaideep-Saikia/dp/8178299518/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335899053&sr=1-3

Dayuhan
08-13-2012, 11:08 AM
Commentary on Indian COIN:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/opensecurity/shantie-mariet-dsouza-bibhu-prasad-routray/indias-coin-approach-and-left-wing-extremism


The Maoist insurgency once described as the single greatest threat to the Indian state has lowered in intensity. But the success of the government's COIN approach may not deliver a peace, but an entrenchment of the cycle between stalemate and further violence...

Ray
08-14-2012, 07:16 AM
There are foreign influences, influence of the NGOs to include foreign funded NGOs, too many security agencies under different ministries and since it is taken as a law and order issue, the States come into play as law and order is a State subject.

Hence, their is no unified approach.

Dayuhan
08-15-2012, 01:43 PM
I'm curious about these things, since our friendly neighborhood rebels are also Maoists working in a democracy, an environment in which theoretically they shouldn't thrive.

So some questions, just to compare...


There are foreign influences, influence of the NGOs to include foreign funded NGOs, too many security agencies under different ministries and since it is taken as a law and order issue, the States come into play as law and order is a State subject.

Hence, their is no unified approach.

What would you say the foreign influences are? From what sources? Purely influence, or direct assistance?

How does the NGO influence work? Actively encouraging rebellion, or more indirect?

I noticed this item in the cited article:


The foot soldiers who had joined the Maoist movement in the later years had little interest in furthering the people's war, but joined for the pecuniary benefits the movement was offering.

Would you agree with that? If so, it makes me curious about where the movement gets its money. Pecuniary benefits for a force of 40k+ runs to a fair bit of the ol' pecunia.

Are the Maoists strongest in tribal areas? In particular, are they strongest in tribal areas where administrative and government posts are predominantly controlled by non-tribals?

Ray
08-19-2012, 03:55 PM
I'm curious about these things, since our friendly neighborhood rebels are also Maoists working in a democracy, an environment in which theoretically they shouldn't thrive.

So some questions, just to compare...



What would you say the foreign influences are? From what sources? Purely influence, or direct assistance?

How does the NGO influence work? Actively encouraging rebellion, or more indirect?

I noticed this item in the cited article:



Would you agree with that? If so, it makes me curious about where the movement gets its money. Pecuniary benefits for a force of 40k+ runs to a fair bit of the ol' pecunia.

Are the Maoists strongest in tribal areas? In particular, are they strongest in tribal areas where administrative and government posts are predominantly controlled by non-tribals?

The media has indicated that Foreign NGOs do encourage militancy. The Church has a great influence upon the tribal and the people of the NE.

I have it from a Governor of one of the NE States of how elections and life is swayed by the Church in that State and in the NE. In fact, he used to request the Church to assist if there was any knotty problem to solve.

China has been given proof of their involvement.

How things happen indirectly to influence and even assist is given very lucidly in the book Ugly American. I was a high school student when the book came out and one could see the same happening in India and I felt very sad for the US, which was giving India a lot of aid, but Russia was on the ball! And both were doing their best to influence the Govt and the people.

Bill Moore
08-19-2012, 04:34 PM
Posted by Dayuhan,


I'm curious about these things, since our friendly neighborhood rebels are also Maoists working in a democracy, an environment in which theoretically they shouldn't thrive.

This returns us to the overarching U.S. philosophical assumption that establishing a democracy and free market are the decisive actions for defeating (many interpretations) an insurgency. I'm not sure how many times this will have to be disproven before we have our aha moment that is not a universal law.

The levels of corruption in both India and the Philippines largely make their democracies irrelevant to vast portions of the population to begin with (I realize I'm arguing against myself, but I'm trying to be fair).

For external support the Maoists throughout S. Asia are interconnected to some degree, and of course the adage that an enemy of my enemy if my friend applies, so it isn't unreasonable to believe the Maoists in India are receiving some support from state actors hostile to India.

In the Philippines the NPA at its current level of activity can probably sustain itself through various criminal activities and taxes.

Bill Moore
08-20-2012, 07:33 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/20/world/asia/india-asks-pakistan-to-help-investigate-root-of-panic.html?_r=2&ref=world

India Asks Pakistan to Investigate Root of Panic


“We want people to know that the bulk of this was done from Pakistan,” Home Secretary R. K. Singh told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday night. He added, “A total of 76 Web sites were identified where morphed images were uploaded, and the bulk of these were uploaded in Pakistan.”


Then, authorities say, misleading cellphone text messages and other social media messages began circulating on Wednesday with warnings that Muslims would attack northeastern students and migrants. Tens of thousands of people hurriedly boarded overcrowded trains to the northeast as leaders pleaded for calm.

This article is interesting on several levels for what it portends. State and non-state actors have the ability to exploit a tense situation by distributing disinformation over the internet and social media. The new part is the speed and momentum these tactics facilitate compared to print, radio, and whisper campaigns which all require some degree of direct access.

Next article is just a reminder that old ideological foes still exist and they have their own networks that are regional and sometimes global.

http://kasamaproject.org/2011/03/27/ccomposa-conf-political-resolution-of-south-asian-maoists/


In spite of challenges, the opportunities are bright. In fact, bigger the challenge brighter is the opportunity. In order to transform this potential into reality the communist revolutionaries have to
•engage in serious ideological and political struggle to defeat the wrong trends in the communist movement, principally revisionism;
• develop strong ideological and political unity and common resolve among themselves;
• build up regional mechanism for cooperation to fight imperialism, Indian expansionist hegemony and advance revolution;
• establish the inevitability and invincibility of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism among the broad masses;
• unite the entire national and democratic movements and just struggles broadly to the extent they can go together to fight the principal enemy.
• unite with Maoist and all fighting forces throughout the world.

Seize power where it is possible, develop ongoing people’s wars to higher levels, prepare and initiate people’s war where parties exist and build up parties where they don’t – this should be the working orientation of Maoist revolutionaries.

It is a declared fact that CCOMPOSA has been formed to unite the Maoist revolutionaries of South Asia and fight Indian expansionist hegemony and imperialism in the region. Apart from accomplishing its responsibility in this region, CCOMPOSA, as a part and parcel of the international communist movement, must discharge its internationalist duties to further the cause of world proletarian revolution.

Dayuhan
08-20-2012, 08:14 AM
The media has indicated that Foreign NGOs do encourage militancy.

How credible are the media reports? What foreign NGOs are involved, and what are they allegedly doing to encourage militancy?

Here we have a number of (predominantly local) NGOs that are essentially extensions and above-ground fronts for the armed movements. Foreign NGOs and local counterparts are involved, but often in a different way. At times they encourage resistance to government in ways that actually compete with the armed movements, offering peaceful political means toward similar goals, predominantly the goal of helping indigenous populations resist intrusion by extractive industry and outside settlers. I'd be interested in hearing if a similar dynamic plays out there. When NGOs help organize (for example) rallies or protests against perceived "development aggression", that's often seen, at least by some, as encouraging militancy. In practice, at least here, it plays out rather differently on the ground: if people see peaceful means of protecting themselves they are sometimes less interested in resorting to violence (unless of course the peaceful means are suppressed), and peaceful resistance can be an important safety valve, releasing tension before it reaches the point of violence. It's most effective, of course, when it works. If government ignores or steps on peaceful resistance, violent movements will take advantage.


The Church has a great influence upon the tribal and the people of the NE.

Which church(es), and how is that influence typically used?


China has been given proof of their involvement.

What's the nature and extent of that involvement?


How things happen indirectly to influence and even assist is given very lucidly in the book Ugly American. I was a high school student when the book came out and one could see the same happening in India and I felt very sad for the US, which was giving India a lot of aid, but Russia was on the ball! And both were doing their best to influence the Govt and the people.

Certainly foreign parties try to influence these situations, but they don't always succeed. That influence is often overstated, especially by governments that would rather blame an insurgency on foreign subversion than address their own governance issues.

I'm still curious about the allegation in the article cited earlier that many of the fighters are in it for the money. Is that true? If so, where's the money coming from?


This returns us to the overarching U.S. philosophical assumption that establishing a democracy and free market are the decisive actions for defeating (many interpretations) an insurgency. I'm not sure how many times this will have to be disproven before we have our aha moment that is not a universal law.

I certainly wouldn't say that's a universal law, but I would point out that the NPA have been significantly eroded since the fall of Marcos. The symbiotic relationship between dictator and rebel is often under-appreciated.


The levels of corruption in both India and the Philippines largely make their democracies irrelevant to vast portions of the population to begin with (I realize I'm arguing against myself, but I'm trying to be fair).

In the Philippines I'd say the issue is less "corruption" in the broad sense than the persistence of what amounts to dictatorship in regional enclaves where dynastic autocrats still hold absolute sway and operate as a law unto themselves, with no effective central control. I imagine the influences in India are different.


For external support the Maoists throughout S. Asia are interconnected to some degree, and of course the adage that an enemy of my enemy if my friend applies, so it isn't unreasonable to believe the Maoists in India are receiving some support from state actors hostile to India.

Again the question to me is not whether such support exists, but what is the extent and nature of that support.


In the Philippines the NPA at its current level of activity can probably sustain itself through various criminal activities and taxes.

It can and it does. The removal of external funding (mainly from Europe) has affected the internal dynamics of the organization, though. With regional units effectively raising their own funds, central control is diminished and the movement has become increasingly regionalized. If that continues, we could see a point at which it becomes less "the NPA" than a cluster of loosely allied regional armed movements.

Ray
08-20-2012, 01:46 PM
The levels of corruption in both India and the Philippines largely make their democracies irrelevant to vast portions of the population to begin with

The fact that democracy is seriously taken in India is why we have not replicated Pakistan, as also ensured that the Nation has not folded up, notwithstanding the various faultlines that are there.

Ray
08-20-2012, 02:06 PM
How credible are the media reports? What foreign NGOs are involved, and what are they allegedly doing to encourage militancy?

Which church(es), and how is that influence typically used?

What's the nature and extent of that involvement?

Certainly foreign parties try to influence these situations, but they don't always succeed. That influence is often overstated, especially by governments that would rather blame an insurgency on foreign subversion than address their own governance issues.

I'm still curious about the allegation in the article cited earlier that many of the fighters are in it for the money. Is that true? If so, where's the money coming from?


Here are some links:

Western nations fund NGOs operating in developing countries to influence policy and subvert institutions. India does not need foreign-funded NGOs.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/item/51577-using-ngos-to-coerce-nations.html

Indian law on foreign funds to NGOs worries UN body
http://www.firstpost.com/india/indian-law-on-foreign-funds-to-ngos-worries-un-body-242888.html

Foreign funds help NGOs fuel unrest in India
http://dailypioneer.com/home/online-channel/360-todays-newspaper/48615-foreign-funds-help-ngos-fuel-unrest-in-india.html

It maybe interesting to note that the areas where foreign funds are being used by the NGOs are the places where terrorism and Maoism is at its prime!

Then we have the infamous Binayak Sen's case, where the foreign 'intellectual' intervened with the Govt so that he could be released! He is a doctor who sympathised with the Marxists and was distributing Maoist and Communist pamphlets that advocated overthrowing of the Govt and Democracy and to set up a proletariat regime!

Ray
08-20-2012, 02:32 PM
Bill Moore

The exodus of the NE people (who are Hindus, Christians, animists) from Mumbai and cities of the South, was triggered off by threats to their lives by SMSes and MMSes because the Bodos (tribal people of Bodoland) clashed with the Muslims, the large majority being illegals from Bangladesh who have settled down and some even have acquired Indian ID cards through dubious means.

In India, no one can settle down in tribal land. That land belongs to the tribal. The Muslims have slowly spread their wings into the tribal area and so that is the problem.

The anger of the Muslims was expressed first in Mumbai, where a Muslim NGO Raza Academy held a protest rally. Mumbai broke into flames!

I am only giving the links since the pictures and the video are disturbing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlZ6uWnF36I&feature=player_embedded

http://i.imgur.com/E4Ldr.jpg

http://www.esakal.com/esakal/20120811/images/4695369649234350169/5285893546850085509_Org.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kX5Gl.jpg

https://p.twimg.com/A0BjaU0CcAAQ_r1.jpg:large

http://gallery.mid-day.com/plog-content/images/news/mob-violence-in-mumbai/mob-violence-mumbai11.jpg

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/215722_10151034215053071_174133450_n.jpg
(Destroying a memorial to the Fallen Soldiers)

http://static.ibnlive.in.com/ibnlive/pix/sitepix/08_2012/azadmaidan_protest.jpg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAF8g71gKa0&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5io2w9g23HI&feature=player_embedded

Ray
08-20-2012, 02:44 PM
The Muslims were agitated because they were angered over the Bodos (tribal, who are Christians and animists) causing 'trouble' for the Muslims.

They were also enraged over SMSes and MMSes circulated to them on the riots as also of the riots in Burma where the Burmese pushed out the Rohigyas (Muslims of the Arakan). Bangladesh pushed these Muslim Rohingyas back!

They were angered that India had not done anything to Burma for what they had done to the Rohingya Muslims and they wanted action against the Bodos also.

It will be interesting to note that these MMSes were doctored.


Videos doctored in Pakistan sparked NE exodus: Government

In one instance, images of death and destruction caused by a cyclone have been morphed to be passed off as a case of atrocity on Muslims in Assam. In others, bodies of victims of an earthquake which occurred months ago was juxtaposed with photographs of Buddhist monks to project violence on Muslims in Myanmar by Buddhists.

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Videos-doctored-in-Pakistan-sparked-NE-exodus-Government/articleshow/15550503.cms

Ray
08-20-2012, 02:50 PM
The levels of corruption in both India and the Philippines largely make their democracies irrelevant to vast portions of the population to begin with

Bill,

If India did not have faith in Democracy, notwithstanding its faults, such type of activities including Kashmir, Maoists and communal bloodshed would have been solved in the manner in which Sri Lanka handled the LTTE or China handles all types of revolts by minorities and political deviants!

But then, India is a Democracy!

Dayuhan
08-21-2012, 12:45 AM
Here are some links:

Some fairly chaotic stuff there, representing another thing the Philippines and India seem to have in common: poor journalism. There's little attempt to distinguish among government-supported NGOs, privately funded NGOs, and foreign funding for domestic NGOs, they're simply lumped together. There's little appreciation for the broad spectrum of NGOs, which ranges from quasi-official government-funded groups like NED to issue-driven groups with a distinctly adversarial relationship with their own governments. In particular this claim:


By far the most important tool of empire is Amnesty International.

would come as a surprise to the American fringe right, where Amnesty International is routinely castigated as a tool of the great Commie-Muislim anti-American conspiracy, owing to their regular criticism of authoritarian regimes allied with the US.

Mainstream groups like NED and Freedom House do inspire some anger, which is a good sign: if they weren't pissing anyone off they wouldn't be doing their jobs. Anyone familiar with either group, though, would know that neither they nor any similar group is likely to be funding Maoist rebels, or even antinuclear protests. What reason would the US Government have to oppose Indian development of nuclear power?

Of course there are many independently funded NGOs, particularly of the environmental and generic left persuasion, that would support opposition to nuclear power plants, dams, mines, etc. Most of these groups have an intensely adversarial relationship with the US government, which they see as a tool of the evil corporations and a primary enemy. The extent to which they would fund armed Maoist rebels is another question altogether. Some might, most wouldn't: even where leaders are sympathetic, they're well aware that their own donor base would not be.


It maybe interesting to note that the areas where foreign funds are being used by the NGOs are the places where terrorism and Maoism is at its prime!

NGOs typically prioritize the poorest and least developed areas, which are also those most susceptible to insurgency, so that's not necessarily evidence that NGOs are causing the insurgency. Is there any specific information on what NGOs are allegedly supporting actual armed rebellion (as opposed to demonstrations and other peaceful protests) and on the nature and extent of the alleged support?

Ray
08-21-2012, 05:14 AM
What reason would the US Government have to oppose Indian development of nuclear power?


Locals Resume Anti-Nuclear Protest

A day after work resumed at a large nuclear power plant in India’s southern state of Tamil Nadu, anti-nuclear protestors are up in arms against the state government’s decision to begin work at the site....

Tamil Nadu Chief Minister J. Jayalalithaa gave a go-ahead to resume construction work at the Russia-backed project, ......

Ms. Jayalalithaa’s move comes after the Indian government alleged illicit foreign funding was behind the protests. According to reports, the government ordered cases to be registered against four non-governmental organizations for allegedly receiving illicit funding to encourage anti-nuclear protests in Tamil Nadu. A German national was also deported for his alleged involvement in the protests, though he denies any wrongdoing.

This is a topic Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has also weighed in on. In a magazine interview published in February, Mr. Singh alleged that “the atomic energy program has got into difficulties” because of the opposition of NGOs, “mostly I think based in the U.S.” In the same interview, Mr. Singh claimed that the “thinking segment” of India’s population supported nuclear power. He pointed at India’s need to increase its energy supply.
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/03/21/locals-resume-anti-nuclear-protest/

This is from the Wall Street Journal, India.

I wonder if American feel that the Wall Street Journal would qualify as chaotic or shoddy journalism.

Our PM is a very pro US person ('Mr Bush, India loves you' is his quote when he met Mr Bush). If he feels that way he felt over the issue, then one cannot dismiss his comments perfunctorily.

Most of the Indian editors are foreign educated (Oxford or Cambridge or Harvard or Princeton).

The reason why US is not comfortable over the nuclear plant is that it is Russian backed, while it was the US (Mr Bush actually) which got India clearance for international nuclear fuel supply and, it was understood that India would buy US nuclear plant. The Liability factor on the supplier is what is the hurdle with the US nuclear plants. India is very careful on that after the Union Carbide case which caused the Bhopal Gas Tragedy.

2. Amnesty International is not a Mary Poppins inspite of the hype.

I endorse the American opinion of this organisation and add it is also pro terrorist. Human rights is one thing and bending backward to castigate the Govt alone and not the terrorists is another.

3. Funding organisations that superstitiously espouse the Maoist and terrorist cause is indeed a part of a destabilisation at work.

The Tablighi organisation is a charitable organisation, but the ulterior aim is something else.

Here is a link


FBI monitors Islamic group Tablighi Jamaat at Masjid Al-Falah Queens New York
http://pibillwarner.wordpress.com/2009/07/11/fbi-monitors-islamic-group-tablighi-jamaat-at-masjid-al-falah-queens-new-york-by-bill-warner-private-investigator/

I am sure the Islamic countries would feel that this is unfair since the Talblighi works amongst the American poor and the deprived!

And is unnecessarily being taken to be an organisation that is radicalising people and turning them into terrorists.

You may also like to read this:


Tablighi Jamaat: Jihad's Stealthy Legions
http://www.meforum.org/686/tablighi-jamaat-jihads-stealthy-legions

Ray
08-21-2012, 05:51 AM
Aid money and how it is used.

The British view


DfID Still Burning Our Money

But the fact remains that the big success stories in economic development have never come about as the result of western government aid programmes. They have come from poor countries themselves deciding to embrace the market and welcome in private investment.......

And boy, does this idea allow DfID to waste money. Because by switching its emphasis from drilling wells to promoting rights, it moves out of the realm of practicalities and into the realm of "communications" and"advocacy" - aka spin. And spin can take place anywhere, including right back here in blighty.

According to Fake Aid, a new report from the International Policy Network:
"increasing amounts of DfID funds are channelled through non-governmental organisations (NGOs) to fund lobbying activities, marketing, and the promotion of political ideology, often within the UK.

DfID funds various well-known NGOs – including Oxfam, VSO, and ActionAid – for vague-sounding activities such as “awareness”, “promotion”, and “advocacy”. The programme that funds these activities has spent over £600 million to date. Most of these grants are not provided by an open tendering system but are instead supplied to NGOs that have very close relationships with government. New applications are currently not allowed, so this elite band of NGOs has enjoyed sole access to the increasing funding."

http://burningourmoney.blogspot.in/2009/10/dfid-still-burning-our-money.html


Now, what could be vague-sounding activities such as “awareness”, “promotion”, and “advocacy”?

Are they really doing much to improve the lives of the impoverished, underfed millions or is it to create unrest?

Also, this aid is basically to improve commercial interest.

Working as one team at Post: Guidance for DFID, UKTI and FCO staff on HMG’s Commercial Diplomacy and Untied Aid Agenda
http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Documents/publications1/gov-guidelines-commercial-diplomacy.pdf

Actually, nothing wrong in that.

At least, the British Govt has clearly stated the reality upfront! The Govt deserves credit for being bold and forthright rather than being weasel mouthed as so many aid giving countries around the world!

Some other views:

If India doesn't want our aid, stop it now, Cameron told after country labels £280m-a-year donations as 'peanuts'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2096628/British-foreign-aid-India-tells-Britain-dont-need-peanuts-offer-us.html

The politics and arrogance of British aid to India
Link (http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CFYQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.esamskriti.com%2Fessays%2Fdoc file%2F4_890.doc&ei=bRwzUI2QEonJrQf46YGgBw&usg=AFQjCNG5eaaRifFwHgajBXbqSWoI4OV6_Q)

Ray
08-21-2012, 05:57 AM
This spreading of “awareness”, “promotion”, and “advocacy” by foreign funded NGOs is what fuels the fire and leads to insurgencies and Maoism.

Hitler, also spread “awareness”, “promotion”, and “advocacy” amongst the German people and created the juggernaut that shook the world and brought misery. He did a great job if one was a Nazi or a sympathiser, but was a Devil Incarnate is one faced the brunt of his spreading of “awareness”, “promotion”, and “advocacy” amongst the then impoverished, humiliated and deprived German people.

It all depends on how one perceives the different sides of the same coin!

Manmohan Singh told Mr Bush - India loves you, Mr Bush. Indeed, many did and still do.

But ask the Indian Muslims. Do they love Mr Bush?

Dayuhan
08-21-2012, 06:02 AM
This is from the Wall Street Journal, India.

I wonder if American feel that the Wall Street Journal would qualify as chaotic or shoddy journalism.

There's nothing in that article to suggest funding by the US Government. As I said, it's entirely possible that US NGOs are helping to fund antinuclear, environmental, and other movements in India. I'd be surprised if they weren't. That doen't mean the US Government is involved in any way. Most of these NGOs don't get government funding, and many have a quite adversarial relationship with the US government. The US Government can't stop them from sending money, unless they send it to someone designated as a terrorist organization.

Again, if you're looking at NGOs there has to be some distinction among Government-funded or approved foreign NGOs, foreign NGOs not funded by government, and local NGOs receiving assistance from foreign counterparts.


The reason why US is not comfortable over the nuclear plant is that it is Russian backed, while it was the US (Mr Bush actually) which got India clearance for international nuclear fuel supply and, it was understood that India would buy US nuclear plant. The Liability factor on the supplier is what is the hurdle with the US nuclear plants. India is very careful on that after the Union Carbide case which caused the Bhopal Gas Tragedy.

How does supplier liability work out in the case of a Russian-built nuclear power plant? The Russian nuclear industry isn't noted for having a perfect safety record. In any event the idea that the US Government is funding anti-nuclear protests in India because a US company didn't get the contract seems pretty far out on the conspiracy-theory scale. What are the specific NGOs involved? Is there any evidence that they receive US Government funding?


2. Amnesty International is not a Mary Poppins inspite of the hype.

I endorse the American opinion of this organisation and add it is also pro terrorist. Human rights is one thing and bending backward to castigate the Govt alone and not the terrorists is another.

I certainly wouldn't say they are "a Mary Poppins", but they aren't tools of the US Government either; they've shown that enough times. Over the years they've come in for quite similar criticism from the US Government


3. Funding organisations that superstitiously espouse the Maoist and terrorist cause is indeed a part of a destabilisation at work.

Possibly so... but who's being funded, and who's doing the funding? The accusations published all seem awfully generic, with few organizations actually mentioned, and funding for, say, environmental, anti-nuclear, or similar groups isn't the same thing as funding Maoist rebels.

Governments always prefer to blame issues of insurgency and popular resistance movements of foreign subversion: that relieves them of responsibility for the consequences of their own governance decision. That's often a bit of an excuse, though. Foreign support may aggravate an insurgency, but it's not going to create one, not without a pretty high level of disaffection already in place.

Ray
08-21-2012, 08:02 AM
There's nothing in that article to suggest funding by the US Government. As I said, it's entirely possible that US NGOs are helping to fund antinuclear, environmental, and other movements in India. I'd be surprised if they weren't. That doen't mean the US Government is involved in any way. Most of these NGOs don't get government funding, and many have a quite adversarial relationship with the US government. The US Government can't stop them from sending money, unless they send it to someone designated as a terrorist organization.

Again, if you're looking at NGOs there has to be some distinction among Government-funded or approved foreign NGOs, foreign NGOs not funded by government, and local NGOs receiving assistance from foreign counterparts.


It would be an understatement to believe that the foreign funding was totally altruistic.


If you had read through the links, you would have realised the British anger at funding India, which does not require British aid. DFID is Govt funded and it supports the NGOs in India.


Here is an article from the UK

Dodgy development: DFID in India : Introduction: DFID in India

http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=3655

Let us look at a similar situation from history.

Would anyone believe that colonialism was anyway related to evangelism of the Missionaries who can to ‘civilise’ the ‘savages’?


I am reminded of Desmond Tutu’s phrase on the missionaries.



When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them, we had the Bible and they had the land.


And actually, while the missionaries were not funded by the Govt, but they assisted their Govt to change the minds of the people the missionaries ‘saved’.


Christianity and colonialism are associated because Catholicism and Protestantism were the religions of the European colonial powers and in many ways are taken as the “religious arm" of those powers.


I am not saying so but Edward Andrews has opined that Christian missionaries were initially portrayed as "visible saints, exemplars of ideal piety in a sea of persistent savagery". However, by the time the colonial era drew to a close in the last half of the twentieth century, missionaries became viewed as "ideological shock troops for colonial invasion whose zealotry blinded them", colonialism's "agent, scribe and moral alibi."


Some more reference material are:

1. ^ Melvin E. Page, Penny M. Sonnenburg (2003). Colonialism: an international, social, cultural, and political encyclopedia, Volume 1. ABC-CLIO. p. 496. "Of all religions, Christianity has been most associated with colonialism because several of its forms (Catholicism and Protestantism) were the religions of the European powers engaged in colonial enterprise on a global scale."

2. ^ Bevans, Steven. "Christian Complicity in Colonialism/ Globalism". Retrieved 2010-11-17. "The modern missionary era was in many ways the ‘religious arm’ of colonialism, whether Portuguese and Spanish colonialism in the sixteenth Century, or British, French, German, Belgian or American colonialism in the nineteenth. This was not all bad — oftentimes missionaries were heroic defenders of the rights of indigenous peoples"

3. ^ Andrews, Edward (2010). "Christian Missions and Colonial Empires Reconsidered: A Black Evangelist in West Africa, 1766–1816". Journal of Church & State 51 (4): 663–691.doi:10.1093/jcs/csp090. "Historians have traditionally looked at Christian missionaries in one of two ways. The first church historians to catalogue missionary history provided hagiographic descriptions of their trials, successes, and sometimes even martyrdom. Missionaries were thus visible saints, exemplars of ideal piety in a sea of persistent savagery. However, by the middle of the twentieth century, an era marked by civil rights movements, anti-colonialism, and growing secularization, missionaries were viewed quite differently. Instead of godly martyrs, historians now described missionaries as arrogant and rapacious imperialists. Christianity became not a saving grace but a monolithic and aggressive force that missionaries imposed upon defiant natives. Indeed, missionaries were now understood as important agents in the ever-expanding nation-state, or "ideological shock troops for colonial invasion whose zealotry blinded them."

4. ^ Comaroff, Jean; Comaroff, John (2010) [1997]. "Africa Observed: Discourses of the Imperial Imagination". In Grinker, Roy R.; Lubkemann, Stephen C.; Steiner, Christopher B.. Perspectives on Africa: A Reader in Culture, History and Representation (2nd ed.). Oxford: Blackwell Publishing. p. 32


Therefore, the correlation between Missionaries and Foreign funded NGO is quite similar. They are basically the ‘ideological shock troops in guise of moral, bleeding heart Pollyannas’.


I think this is a subject that can be debated on a separate thread.



How does supplier liability work out in the case of a Russian-built nuclear power plant? The Russian nuclear industry isn't noted for having a perfect safety record. In any event the idea that the US Government is funding anti-nuclear protests in India because a US company didn't get the contract seems pretty far out on the conspiracy-theory scale. What are the specific NGOs involved? Is there any evidence that they receive US Government funding?


I think the term, “Conspiracy Theory” has been overused and is but a cliché and cover all for anything that does not suits one’s own perceptions.


One the Russian nuclear project, Wiki sums up the issue.


An Inter-Governmental Agreement on the project was signed on November 20, 1988 by then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi and Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, for the construction of two reactors. The project remained in limbo for a decade due to the political and economic upheaval in Russia after the post-1991 Soviet breakup. There were also objections from the United States, on the grounds that the agreement does not meet the 1992 terms of the Nuclear Suppliers Group(NSG).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudankulam_Atomic_Power_Project


While there were protests in India, where the US oriented PM of India was equally livid about the protests being foreign funded, it also found widespread sympathy in western nations.



Protest in Britain over Kudankulam nuclear plant
They claimed support from five British MPs and one British Member of the European Parliament who have signed a letter addressed to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh which will be handed over to the High Commission……..

They claimed the construction violated the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safety guidelines as Kudankulam is in a tsunami and earthquake prone region which has also experienced small volcanic eruptions and is affected by water shortages.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/protest-in-britain-over-kudankulam-nuclear-plant/259242-62-128.html


It sure makes one wonder as to what prompts far away western nations to be livid about India’s development plans when they are not funding the same? Should they not be more concerned about themselves acquiring nuclear submarines and adding to their nuclear stockpile? I am sure those are more dangerous for proliferation in case of accidents inside their country or while traversing across the oceans than a nuclear power plant!


One wonders as to why there was no western outcry that Japan should close down all its nuclear power plants since it is an earthquake and tsunami prone nation and disasters like the last nuclear plant accident due to the tsunami could affect the world.

Odd, to say the least.


On the issue of whether or not the NGOs or those providing the funds have the support of foreign Govts, would any organisation claim that they are being funded to pursue an agenda that has covert aims tweaked in its moralist and altruist façade? I would be very surprised if a person of the US Embassy should walk up and shout from the rooftop stating ‘Hey, I am a CIA agent!’

I am sure you have heard of the Raymond Davis case in Pakistan. He was a retired Special Forces soldier, who carried out scouting and other reconnaissance missions as a security officer for the Central Intelligence Agency. The US Govt would not go to the extent that it did, if he was not a CIA agent. And what was his official designation?



I certainly wouldn't say they are "a Mary Poppins", but they aren't tools of the US Government either; they've shown that enough times. Over the years they've come in for quite similar criticism from the US Government


Amnesty International is an over rated organisation with its own agenda.


They trot out their ‘findings’ which are one sided, perfectly satisfied that they need not give the facts of the terrorist/ Maoist atrocities!


Amnesty International, medecins sans frontiers, the Peace Corps et al, all very noble organisation have been accused to pursuing foreign agenda or spying. To believe that one would not use such organisations would be disingenuous.


Soft power is a concept developed by Joseph Nye to describe the ability to attract and co-opt rather than coerce and rather than using force or money as a means of persuasion (to pursue the agenda).

Ray
08-21-2012, 08:02 AM
Possibly so... but who's being funded, and who's doing the funding? The accusations published all seem awfully generic, with few organizations actually mentioned, and funding for, say, environmental, anti-nuclear, or similar groups isn't the same thing as funding Maoist rebels.

Governments always prefer to blame issues of insurgency and popular resistance movements of foreign subversion: that relieves them of responsibility for the consequences of their own governance decision. That's often a bit of an excuse, though. Foreign support may aggravate an insurgency, but it's not going to create one, not without a pretty high level of disaffection already in place.


It is easy for one to comment that the Govt blames others for their ills.


Indeed the Govts are responsible for neglect that leads to such insurgencies, but then you may like to think it over as to what would be the cost of organising an insurgency.


Look at organising an insurgency in terms of patching up the organisation, organising the publicity, weaning over sympathisers, having overt front men and organisation espousing their cause, training and equipping the underground soldiers for their cause, organising and funding the logistics of such Army and also other front organisations and so on and so forth.


It requires big time Money. Without help from ‘friends’, such an endeavour is a non starter.


One does not require a high level of dissatisfaction to start a revolution.


Dissatisfaction is there in all societies. It merely requires good and sustained spin to brainwash people into action and then it becomes self sustaining.

Ray
08-21-2012, 08:08 AM
Minute by the Hon'ble T. B. Macaulay, dated the 2nd February 1835.

[5] The argument which I have been considering affects only the form of proceeding. But the admirers of the oriental system of education have used another argument, which, if we admit it to be valid, is decisive against all change. They conceive that the public faith is pledged to the present system, and that to alter the appropriation of any of the funds which have hitherto been spent in encouraging the study of Arabic and Sanscrit would be downright spoliation. It is not easy to understand by what process of reasoning they can have arrived at this conclusion. The grants which are made from the public purse for the encouragement of literature differ in no respect from the grants which are made from the same purse for other objects of real or supposed utility. We found a sanitarium on a spot which we suppose to be healthy. Do we thereby pledge ourselves to keep a sanitarium there if the result should not answer our expectations? We commence the erection of a pier. Is it a violation of the public faith to stop the works, if we afterwards see reason to believe that the building will be useless? The rights of property are undoubtedly sacred. But nothing endangers those rights so much as the practice, now unhappily too common, of attributing them to things to which they do not belong. Those who would impart to abuses the sanctity of property are in truth imparting to the institution of property the unpopularity and the fragility of abuses. If the Government has given to any person a formal assurance-- nay, if the Government has excited in any person's mind a reasonable expectation-- that he shall receive a certain income as a teacher or a learner of Sanscrit or Arabic, I would respect that person's pecuniary interests. I would rather err on the side of liberality to individuals than suffer the public faith to be called in question. But to talk of a Government pledging itself to teach certain languages and certain sciences, though those languages may become useless, though those sciences may be exploded, seems to me quite unmeaning. There is not a single word in any public instrument from which it can be inferred that the Indian Government ever intended to give any pledge on this subject, or ever considered the destination of these funds as unalterably fixed. But, had it been otherwise, I should have denied the competence of our predecessors to bind us by any pledge on such a subject. Suppose that a Government had in the last century enacted in the most solemn manner that all its subjects should, to the end of time, be inoculated for the small-pox, would that Government be bound to persist in the practice after Jenner's discovery? These promises of which nobody claims the performance, and from which nobody can grant a release, these vested rights which vest in nobody, this property without proprietors, this robbery which makes nobody poorer, may be comprehended by persons of higher faculties than mine. I consider this plea merely as a set form of words, regularly used both in England and in India, in defence of every abuse for which no other plea can be set up.

[12] How then stands the case? We have to educate a people who cannot at present be educated by means of their mother-tongue. We must teach them some foreign language. The claims of our own language it is hardly necessary to recapitulate. It stands pre-eminent even among the languages of the West. It abounds with works of imagination not inferior to the noblest which Greece has bequeathed to us, --with models of every species of eloquence, --with historical composition, which, considered merely as narratives, have seldom been surpassed, and which, considered as vehicles of ethical and political instruction, have never been equaled-- with just and lively representations of human life and human nature, --with the most profound speculations on metaphysics, morals, government, jurisprudence, trade, --with full and correct information respecting every experimental science which tends to preserve the health, to increase the comfort, or to expand the intellect of man. Whoever knows that language has ready access to all the vast intellectual wealth which all the wisest nations of the earth have created and hoarded in the course of ninety generations. It may safely be said that the literature now extant in that language is of greater value than all the literature which three hundred years ago was extant in all the languages of the world together. Nor is this all. In India, English is the language spoken by the ruling class. It is spoken by the higher class of natives at the seats of Government. It is likely to become the language of commerce throughout the seas of the East. It is the language of two great European communities which are rising, the one in the south of Africa, the other in Australia, --communities which are every year becoming more important and more closely connected with our Indian empire. Whether we look at the intrinsic value of our literature, or at the particular situation of this country, we shall see the strongest reason to think that, of all foreign tongues, the English tongue is that which would be the most useful to our native subjects.

[34] In one point I fully agree with the gentlemen to whose general views I am opposed. I feel with them that it is impossible for us, with our limited means, to attempt to educate the body of the people. We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, --a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in tastes, in opinions, in morals and in intellect. To that class we may leave it to refine the vernacular dialects of the country, to enrich those dialects with terms of science borrowed from the Western nomenclature, and to render them by degrees fit vehicles for conveying knowledge to the great mass of the population.

[35] I would strictly respect all existing interests. I would deal even generously with all individuals who have had fair reason to expect a pecuniary provision. But I would strike at the root of the bad system which has hitherto been fostered by us. I would at once stop the printing of Arabic and Sanscrit books. I would abolish the Mudrassa and the Sanscrit College at Calcutta. Benares is the great seat of Brahminical learning; Delhi of Arabic learning. If we retain the Sanscrit College at Bonares and the Mahometan College at Delhi we do enough and much more than enough in my opinion, for the Eastern languages. If the Benares and Delhi Colleges should be retained, I would at least recommend that no stipends shall be given to any students who may hereafter repair thither, but that the people shall be left to make their own choice between the rival systems of education without being bribed by us to learn what they have no desire to know. The funds which would thus be placed at our disposal would enable us to give larger encouragement to the Hindoo College at Calcutta, and establish in the principal cities throughout the Presidencies of Fort William and Agra schools in which the English language might be well and thoroughly taught.


*****************

So, changing the mindset to suit powers that be is an old custom - as old as when Time began! ;)

And only the fools will abdicate their pristine position with moralism by not use all instruments available to ensure that they remain supreme!

The West may have become weaker owing to the unique circumstances, but they are no fools!

The West will use all instruments in the book to ensure best to form a class who are alike in thought, --a class of persons foreign in colour but Western in tastes, in opinions, in morals and in intellect.

The only problem the West has now is a matching competitor flushed with oil money. They are hard put in spreading their religious edicts and demanding the same with their economic clout in foreign lands. Some nations are succumbing and some are possible valiant as in Custer's Last Stand!

There is also another challenger with economic clout, which has a history of vast imperialistic adventures and gobbling up others and assimilating them and converting them to the imperialist ancestry! They are rising where the Sun rises after Japan. Flexing their muscles but still not there!

In these stands, one hopes Custer wins!

Dayuhan
08-22-2012, 01:22 AM
It would be an understatement to believe that the foreign funding was totally altruistic.

Many of those involved in the antinuclear movements certainly perceive themselves as altruistic. In their own minds, they are saving the planet from the scourge of corporate capitalism. That's an agenda, but it isn't a government agenda or a unitary "Western" agenda.


DFID is Govt funded and it supports the NGOs in India.

What do you mean by "the NGOs"? Which NGOs? There's a huge spectrum there, ranging from finance for small development projects with minimal or no political engagement to pure research to open advocacy and support for radical political causes. Some NGOs get government funding, others don't. Some openly loathe their governments and are intensely disliked by those governments. US NGOs involved in environmental and antinuclear campaigns have been monitored by the FBI, suspected and even accused of criminal and "eco-terrorist" activities. They do not get (and would not accept) government funding. They do raise funds, and they do support anti-nuclear campaigns all over the world. This is not some government or "Western" agenda, it's an agenda driven by a particular social philosophy that has attained a substantial following in much of the west.


I think the term, “Conspiracy Theory” has been overused and is but a cliché and cover all for anything that does not suits one’s own perceptions.

It's an accurate description of what has become a pervasive trend in much of the world: widespread belief, often absolute and unquestioning, in propositions that are supported by neither logic nor evidence. It's a fascinating trend, often supported by the internet, which allows believers to construct a closed circle of superficially credible websites that tell them what they want to hear.

I have no doubt that US-based NGOs fund antinuclear groups in India and in many other places. The same happens in the indigenous rights movement, the environmental movement, the animal rights movement, the feminist movement, etc. We routinely get foreign activists blundering into local movements and trying to offer support. They're often annoying and genrally utterly naive, but they are in no way the cutting edge of some generically "Western" conspiracy to undercut the Philippines.


The project remained in limbo for a decade due to the political and economic upheaval in Russia after the post-1991 Soviet breakup. There were also objections from the United States.

And from this you deduce that protests in India are funded by the US Government? Isn't it more likely that money is coming from groups like Greenpeace or Friends of the Earth. groups that the US Government wouldn't touch with a barge pole? That's what these groups do, they are quite open about it and quite proud of it.

That does not mean that these groups would directly fund Maoist rebels. Some of the individuals in them might want to, but the groups themselves would be very careful: direct support of violent movements would, if exposed, dramatically reduce their ability to raise funds.

The idea that the US Government is funding Maoist rebels is too absurd to countenance. If we heard that the CIA was funding a covert hit squad to whack Maoist sympathizers, that might be more believable.


While there were protests in India, where the US oriented PM of India was equally livid about the protests being foreign funded, it also found widespread sympathy in western nations.

Protest do get widespread support in Western countries: that's why NGOs are able to raise the money they raise. This does not mean the support is institutional or that it comes from government. Many of the people involved are deeply suspicious of government and see it as an antagonist, along with the much loathed bogeyman of "the corporations".


It sure makes one wonder as to what prompts far away western nations to be livid about India’s development plans when they are not funding the same? Should they not be more concerned about themselves acquiring nuclear submarines and adding to their nuclear stockpile?

Many of the same groups hold the same kind of protests against nuclear moves in their own countries. These groups act on their own, generally oppose their own governments, raise substantial cash from sympathizers, and are globally interconnected.


One wonders as to why there was no western outcry that Japan should close down all its nuclear power plants since it is an earthquake and tsunami prone nation and disasters like the last nuclear plant accident due to the tsunami could affect the world.

There is an active antinuclear movement in Japan and it is actively engaged with similar movements around the world. I don't know if it receives funding: it's well established and able to raise funds domestically, I'd guess antinuclear groups in Japan are likely to be funding those in other countries, rather than receiving funds.

There's no generic "western outcry" against nuclear power in either Japan or India. The anti-nuclear movements oppose it, as they do everywhere. They are not "The west" in any generic sense, they are a group of people with a passionate, in some cases obsessive belief and the will to campaign for what they believe in.


would any organisation claim that they are being funded to pursue an agenda that has covert aims tweaked in its moralist and altruist façade?

Is there any evidence of government support, or are you simply assuming that all foreign NGOs are government-funded?


Amnesty International is an over rated organisation with its own agenda.

Of course it has its own agenda. That doesn't make it a tool of the US Government or of "the West". Where I live Amnesty International and similar groups are believed in military circles to be tools of international communism. Same complaints: they complain about government abuses but ignore those of the rebels, etc.


It is easy for one to comment that the Govt blames others for their ills.

Governments do actually do that, all over the world, on a regular basis.


Indeed the Govts are responsible for neglect that leads to such insurgencies, but then you may like to think it over as to what would be the cost of organising an insurgency.

Has anyone actually been accused of funding insurgency? Who, and to what extent? All I've seen is a claim that Indian NGOs diverted foreign funds to support protests. That's by no means incredible, but it's a far cry from funding insurgency.

I've also expressed curiosity about where Indian insurgent movements get their money, especially if it's true that the fighters are fighting for pecuniary benefit. Claims that the insurgency is directly funded by foreign NGOs or governments, though, have to be supported by some kind of evidence or at least some kind of logic. There's simply no reason for the US or any western government to fund Maoist insurgents in India.


Look at organising an insurgency in terms of patching up the organisation, organising the publicity, weaning over sympathisers, having overt front men and organisation espousing their cause, training and equipping the underground soldiers for their cause, organising and funding the logistics of such Army and also other front organisations and so on and so forth.

Self-sustaining insurgencies have existed, especially in their early stages. Foreign funding or ideological support can advance an insurgency, but they can't create one, not unless the domestic conditions exist. Governments would be well advised to address the domestic conditions instead of blaming foreign subversion.


One does not require a high level of dissatisfaction to start a revolution.

So people pick up guns and start shooting at vastly superior forces just because some foreigner wants them to? I don't think so, not without some pretty powerful motivation on a local, personal level.


The West will use all instruments in the book to ensure best to form a class who are alike in thought, --a class of persons foreign in colour but Western in tastes, in opinions, in morals and in intellect.

What you're not recognizing is that "Western" encompasses huge variety. There's the "West" of the tea party and the west of the Occupy movements, the west of Exxon and the west of Greenpeace, the west of the IMF and of the anti-globalization protestors and all stripes in between. Governments juggle and dance to try to gain support and deflect opposition from as many parties as possible. Different factions compete aggressively for followers, all over the world, and link with the like-minded all over the world to advance their own agendas.

It's impossible to speak of a unitary "Western" agenda because no such thing exists.

Ray
08-22-2012, 07:38 AM
What is the West?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZJHZgGxOnE&feature=player_embedded


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzQ_x1S0Am8&feature=player_embedded

Note the difference of understanding between the Oriental and Occidental viewpoints.


Many of those involved in the antinuclear movements certainly perceive themselves as altruistic. In their own minds, they are saving the planet from the scourge of corporate capitalism. That's an agenda, but it isn't a government agenda or a unitary "Western" agenda.


Indeed protests can be with an altruistic drive. However, not all such protests are very noble so to say and can be driven by foreign money.

It is claimed that USSR with the WPC used the undermentioned organisation to spread its of view of peace.
 Christian Peace Conference
 International Federation of Resistance Fighters
 International Institute for Peace
 International Organization of Democratic Lawyers
 International Organization of Journalists
 International Union of Students
 World Federation of Democratic Youth
 World Federation of Scientific Workers
 World Federation of Trade Unions
 Women's International Democratic Federation
 World Peace Esperanto Movement.
 International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War

Obviously, the way these organisations could be used was with funding and infrastructure and behind the ‘altruistic’ aims, they were basically being used to promote the Soviet agenda.

Whether it is true or not, one can always dispute it. Credibility is based on which side of the fence one is.

In 1951 the House Committee on Un-American Activities published The Communist "Peace" Offensive which detailed the activities of the WPC and of numerous affiliated organisations. It listed dozens of American organisations and hundreds of Americans who had been involved in peace meetings, conferences and petitions.

I take it that this House Committee on Un-American Activities is not a totally bogus Committee that is asinine in thought and deed!

Now another one. This will indicate how NGOs and others are not aware of being used

In 1982 the Heritage Foundation published Moscow and the Peace Offensive, which said that non-aligned peace organizations advocated similar policies on defence and disarmament to the Soviet Union. It argued that "pacifists and concerned Christians had been drawn into the Communist campaign largely unaware if its real sponsorship."

So, would it be wrong to believe that the NGOs know who are their actual backers?

Further, in 1985 Time magazine noted "the suspicions of some Western scientists that the nuclear winterscenario was promoted by Moscow to give antinuclear groups in the U.S. and Europe some fresh ammunition against America's arms buildup."

One could give examples at length, but suffice it to say, that foreign Govts do indulge in using NGOs to promote their agenda, and rarely will it admit that they are funding them or they are using the NGOs. Nor will the NGOs know who actually are their backers.

We are aware of the Western commentaries because it is widely read by the English speaking world, but then if one could read and access Soviet or even the Chinese commentaries, they would have told a different story.

In short, in this murky world of geopolitical one-upmanship, to stay relevant and capable of influence peddling, it becomes essential to use every instrument available to maintain supremacy.

I have given adequate examples to include the Raymond Davies case, but then it appears you have missed the same.

I have even said, it is only a silly Govt, which does not use these instruments (even if they are morally base) to ensure furthering its national agenda.

Like, the once hero of India, JL Nehru, who wanted to be the moral conscience keeper of the world, sold us all the way through from Kashmir to Tibet.

Good chap he was, but he failed to see reality.

Other nations like the US or UK, with their long history of governance and world domination, are hardly of the ilk of Nehru or even Gandhi!



What do you mean by "the NGOs"? Which NGOs? There's a huge spectrum there, ranging from finance for small development projects with minimal or no political engagement to pure research to open advocacy and support for radical political causes. Some NGOs get government funding, others don't. Some openly loathe their governments and are intensely disliked by those governments. US NGOs involved in environmental and antinuclear campaigns have been monitored by the FBI, suspected and even accused of criminal and "eco-terrorist" activities. They do not get (and would not accept) government funding. They do raise funds, and they do support anti-nuclear campaigns all over the world. This is not some government or "Western" agenda, it's an agenda driven by a particular social philosophy that has attained a substantial following in much of the west.

I precisely mean the DFID supports NGOs. Which NGOs? I am sure you could go on their website and find out for yourself, so that there is no doubt in your mind that may happen if I told you.

US NGOs maybe monitored by the FBI. But what of it? Are they independent of the Govt? Will they disobey the directions?

How come David Headley was a double agent? He worked for both US and ISI. He screwed the US.

The US government has sentenced a Kashmir-born American citizen Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai for having ties with the Pakistani intelligence community. Fai acknowledged that he relied on funding by way of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI) to stay afloat. Fai admits that he hid information about the more than $3.5 million that was sent to his group from the ISI but says he saw no reason to disclose his ties.

That puts paid to the issue of active and hotfoot FBI monitoring. It was convenient to keep him off the radar, and when it became inconvenient with India warming up to the US, Fai was nabbed and booked!

So, give us a break with moralising, even though that is a Chinese trait to cover misdoings!

It merely proves that Govts, not only the US, but all, use every means available to ensure its national agenda is in place.

To deny it would mean that one is but Goody Two Shoes and pulling wool!

Ray
08-22-2012, 07:39 AM
(contd)


It's an accurate description of what has become a pervasive trend in much of the world: widespread belief, often absolute and unquestioning, in propositions that are supported by neither logic nor evidence. It's a fascinating trend, often supported by the internet, which allows believers to construct a closed circle of superficially credible websites that tell them what they want to hear.

Actually, it is not the internet alone which could be the purveyor of motivated information. Govts, individuals, think tanks et all are guilty.

The unfortunate part is that one has to believe them or else one has to have the finances, organisation, authority and reach to penetrate every action taking place in the world to sift that wheat from the chaff. But then, even that would not be believed by the cynics and the motivate to sell an agenda! ;)


I have no doubt that US-based NGOs fund antinuclear groups in India and in many other places. The same happens in the indigenous rights movement, the environmental movement, the animal rights movement, the feminist movement, etc. We routinely get foreign activists blundering into local movements and trying to offer support. They're often annoying and genrally utterly naive, but they are in no way the cutting edge of some generically "Western" conspiracy to undercut the Philippines.

The backing of NGOs around the world is not US centric.

It is a worldwide phenomenon pursued by all Govts.

I believe it is legal in the US to have lobbies to promote agendas of companies, political views and of foreign nations. These lobbies naturally do not have truth as a part of their agenda! And yet they can influence the US Congress and Govt and decide, if you will, the fate of many countries, like it or not!

Isn't that how life is?



And from this you deduce that protests in India are funded by the US Government? Isn't it more likely that money is coming from groups like Greenpeace or Friends of the Earth. groups that the US Government wouldn't touch with a barge pole? That's what these groups do, they are quite open about it and quite proud of it.

That does not mean that these groups would directly fund Maoist rebels. Some of the individuals in them might want to, but the groups themselves would be very careful: direct support of violent movements would, if exposed, dramatically reduce their ability to raise funds.

The idea that the US Government is funding Maoist rebels is too absurd to countenance. If we heard that the CIA was funding a covert hit squad to whack Maoist sympathizers, that might be more believable.

One would be surprised if the US’ agenda could be furthering radical Communist organisations as the Maoist.

I fail to see from where you deduce that.

Your interesting deduction does leave me baffled.

If you are meaning that the US is backing radical forces to topple State Govts that are not too favourable to the US' point of view, you maybe right.

But then, you alone would have such information. I confess, I don’t!

The nuclear plant is not in a Maoist infested area in case you are not aware.

Would you not drag in the US when none have mentioned it so. It may get you brownie points in this US forum, but then it is far from what I have stated



Protest do get widespread support in Western countries: that's why NGOs are able to raise the money they raise. This does not mean the support is institutional or that it comes from government. Many of the people involved are deeply suspicious of government and see it as an antagonist, along with the much loathed bogeyman of "the corporations".

You view is too simplistic.

I am not aware if you have worked in the govt or even in the Intelligence apparatus.

If you haven’t, then you are entitled to that view.

Unfortunately, that is not how the world rotates in the geopolitical environment.



Many of the same groups hold the same kind of protests against nuclear moves in their own countries. These groups act on their own, generally oppose their own governments, raise substantial cash from sympathizers, and are globally interconnected.

Globally interconnected is the keyword.

It is the business of any Govt to penetrate every organisation and ensure that they do not upset the national agenda.

You must work with Homeland Security so that we can have a more constructive debate.

Or else you will be another Nehru living in your ideal dream world.

I hope I am not sounding like Carl! :)


Is there any evidence of government support, or are you simply assuming that all foreign NGOs are government-funded?

My assumption is not material.

Note what I have appended about the USSR.

Is that evidence or mere assumptions?

Internet you say is a purveyor of bogus information.

In short, you are indicating that anything said, but for what you say , is mere figments of imagination based on links from a bogus instrument – Internet.

Sadly, I have not penetrated every organisation in the world to obtain ‘authentic’ information, and even if I did so and stated it here, you would declare it as bogus.

Damned if you do and damned if you don’t!


Of course it has its own agenda. That doesn't make it a tool of the US Government or of "the West". Where I live Amnesty International and similar groups are believed in military circles to be tools of international communism. Same complaints: they complain about government abuses but ignore those of the rebels, etc.

Why bring in the US in everything?

Because this a US forum and it will agitate the members?

Not only the US, we too feel that the Amnesty International is a total fraud!


Governments do actually do that, all over the world, on a regular basis.

That is the cardinal point that Pollyannas and egotists who feel that Life has not recognised their talent, feel.

It reminds me of Shedon of the serial Big Bang Theory, an American sitcom created by Chuck Lorre and Bill Prady.

Sheldon is a great one of being the sole soul who has the answer to everything and others are but idiots! ;)



Has anyone actually been accused of funding insurgency? Who, and to what extent? All I've seen is a claim that Indian NGOs diverted foreign funds to support protests. That's by no means incredible, but it's a far cry from funding insurgency.

I've also expressed curiosity about where Indian insurgent movements get their money, especially if it's true that the fighters are fighting for pecuniary benefit. Claims that the insurgency is directly funded by foreign NGOs or governments, though, have to be supported by some kind of evidence or at least some kind of logic. There's simply no reason for the US or any western government to fund Maoist insurgents in India.


Has anyone accused anyone of funding and giving support infrastructure to Maoists? You possibly live in the back of nowhere.

Even if you don’t subscribe for international newspaper, you can always try them on line (even though you have a poor impression of the Internet).

Again you bring in the US.

Do you think I am that daft to feel that the US is backing the Maoists?

However, you may see this:

http://www.freebinayaksen.org/?p=1112

Binayak Sen has been passing on Maoist literature and is a backer of the Maoists!

Since you are not aware the Maoists are getting their act together with Chinese support.


Self-sustaining insurgencies have existed, especially in their early stages. Foreign funding or ideological support can advance an insurgency, but they can't create one, not unless the domestic conditions exist. Governments would be well advised to address the domestic conditions instead of blaming foreign subversion.

The best example of Insurgency and Popular Revolution is the Chinese Communist Movement.

You may not know but in 1933, Bo Gu and Otto Braun arrived from the USSR, reorganize the Red Army, and take control of Party affairs. They defeat four encirclement campaigns.

1934: October 16, breakout of 130,000 soldiers and civilians led by Bo Gu and Otto Braun, beginning the Long March.

Otto Braun? Funny Chinese name! :rolleyes:

You are a pro China person. But you sure need to read more about China!


So people pick up guns and start shooting at vastly superior forces just because some foreigner wants them to? I don't think so, not without some pretty powerful motivation on a local, personal level.

You seem to be influenced by the college shootings in the US expecting it to become revolutions!

Rather simplistic a thought.

I gave you the laundry list that requires organising a movement/ insurgency.

Apparently, it suits you to obfuscate and drive everything to irrelevance.

I thank my stars you have not brought in the US even out here to play to the gallery!


What you're not recognizing is that "Western" encompasses huge variety. There's the "West" of the tea party and the west of the Occupy movements, the west of Exxon and the west of Greenpeace, the west of the IMF and of the anti-globalization protestors and all stripes in between. Governments juggle and dance to try to gain support and deflect opposition from as many parties as possible. Different factions compete aggressively for followers, all over the world, and link with the like-minded all over the world to advance their own agendas.

It's impossible to speak of a unitary "Western" agenda because no such thing exists.

Please check those video - What is the West.

Dayuhan
08-22-2012, 10:00 PM
What is the West?

I don't watch YouTube videos as a general rule, they take too damned long to load. There are a few drawbacks to living on the fringe in the 3rd world, slow internet is one of them. In any event I really don't need to be told what the west is, or that there are many views of the west in both Orient and Occident. I've spent enough years in the Orient to know that there is no single "Oriental view" of the west or of anything else. There are a number of competing views, as there are everywhere.


Indeed protests can be with an altruistic drive. However, not all such protests are very noble so to say and can be driven by foreign money.

Of course, though they are more likely to be assisted by foreign money... there's a big difference between "driven" and "assisted".


Whether it is true or not, one can always dispute it. Credibility is based on which side of the fence one is.

Credibility is based on the evidence and reasoning provided to support a proposition.


I take it that this House Committee on Un-American Activities is not a totally bogus Committee that is asinine in thought and deed!

That Committe is not well remembered, and has a bit of a reputation as a vehicle for witch hunts. It is a source of questionable credibility, to say the least.


So, would it be wrong to believe that the NGOs know who are their actual backers?

They certainly know where their money comes from. NGO fundraising is brutally competitive and is one of the main functions of many organization. They keep very close track of their donors and learn all they can about them, mostly because they want to get more money.


One could give examples at length, but suffice it to say, that foreign Govts do indulge in using NGOs to promote their agenda, and rarely will it admit that they are funding them or they are using the NGOs. Nor will the NGOs know who actually are their backers.

Perhaps you could cut to the chase and simply state which NGOs you think are supporting Maoist rebellion in India and which governments you think are backing them?


In short, in this murky world of geopolitical one-upmanship, to stay relevant and capable of influence peddling, it becomes essential to use every instrument available to maintain supremacy.

Ok, so who's trying to "maintain supremacy" by formenting rebellion in India, and what instruments do you think they are using?


I have given adequate examples to include the Raymond Davies case, but then it appears you have missed the same.

I see no relevance to the question at hand. What does Raymond Davis have to do with Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, etc giving money to antinuclear NGOs in India? Yes, intelligence agencies exist and so do covert operations. That doesn't mean anything that happens in the world is the result of a covert operation by an intelligence agency. Where's the evidence? Where's the motive?


I precisely mean the DFID supports NGOs. Which NGOs? I am sure you could go on their website and find out for yourself, so that there is no doubt in your mind that may happen if I told you.

I don't doubt that they are funding NGOs. I doubt that they are funding NGOs who in turn fund Maoists or antinuclear demonstrations, not that those are in any way the same.


US NGOs maybe monitored by the FBI. But what of it? Are they independent of the Govt? Will they disobey the directions?

Yes to both. Government does not control NGOs and cannot dictate their actions as long as they aren't caught breaking laws. Government wishes it could control NGOs. it can't. That's why they are called non government organizations.

Dayuhan
08-22-2012, 10:49 PM
The unfortunate part is that one has to believe them or else one has to have the finances, organisation, authority and reach to penetrate every action taking place in the world to sift that wheat from the chaff. But then, even that would not be believed by the cynics and the motivate to sell an agenda! ;)

One doesn't have to believe anything. One must be skeptical of everything, and review the evidence, reasoning, and basic common sense behind every proposition one reads. Otherwise one is likely to fall for wacko conspiracy theories.


The nuclear plant is not in a Maoist infested area in case you are not aware.

So why is support for anti-nuclear rallies being equated with suipport for Maoists?

This started out as a discussion of where Maoists get their money. Somehow funding for anti-nuclear rallies came into the picture. I'm not sure how that happened, and I'm not sure what the connection is between anti-nuclear rallies and Maoists.


Would you not drag in the US when none have mentioned it so.

The articles you cited refer to "US NGOs" and accuse them of trying to advance a "Western agenda". The term "Western" is so often used as a proxy for "US" that I may have confused something.

Again, this would be simpler if you would tell us which NGOs are suspected of aiding Maoist rebellion, and which Governments you think are supporting them.


Internet you say is a purveyor of bogus information.

In short, you are indicating that anything said, but for what you say , is mere figments of imagination based on links from a bogus instrument – Internet.

The internet is not a purveyor of anything. It is a vehicle for multiple purveyors. Since anyone can publish anything, everything there must be taken with skepticism. A proposition not supported by convincing evidence and effective reasoning is bogus no matter where you read it. You're just most likely, these days, to read such propositions on the internet because of the ease of publication.


Sadly, I have not penetrated every organisation in the world to obtain ‘authentic’ information, and even if I did so and stated it here, you would declare it as bogus.

Only in the absence of convincing evidence and effective reasoning.


Not only the US, we too feel that the Amnesty International is a total fraud!

When I say "here" I don't mean the US. Either way, while AI certainly has an agenda, that doesn't mean they are agents of some nefarious conspiracy. it just means they have an agenda. Most organizations do.


Has anyone accused anyone of funding and giving support infrastructure to Maoists? You possibly live in the back of nowhere.

This whole conversation started with the question of who is funding the Maoists. NGOs and foreign governments were cited. I'm still trying to find out which ones. When did any other topic come into the picture?


Since you are not aware the Maoists are getting their act together with Chinese support.

Finally, progress! What form is this support taking, and in what quantity is it arriving?

Is there a proposition being made that the Chinese are using western NGOs to support Maoists in India? I ask because it's really not clear. If so, what NGOs?


The best example of Insurgency and Popular Revolution is the Chinese Communist Movement.

You may not know but in 1933, Bo Gu and Otto Braun arrived from the USSR, reorganize the Red Army, and take control of Party affairs. They defeat four encirclement campaigns.

There were a few others involved... Mao, Chu Teh, etc.


1934: October 16, breakout of 130,000 soldiers and civilians led by Bo Gu and Otto Braun, beginning the Long March.

Otto Braun? Funny Chinese name! :rolleyes:

You are a pro China person. But you sure need to read more about China!

Does failure to indulge in hysterical Sinophobia make one a "pro-China person"? These definitions seem to change all the time...

Certainly Chiang Kai-Shek wanted to believe that all his problems were due to foreign subversion, and wanted even more to get the Americans to believe it. His allies in the US tried hard to advance that theory. In the end, though, it doesn't hold up: Chiang's problem wasn't foreigners, it was his own incompetence and inability to govern. That's not to say no foreigners were involved; there were a number of foreigners there. The point is that while the revolution may have received foreign assistance, it was in no way a foreign creation. Of course other powers will try to manipulate a revolution to advance their own interests. That doesn't mean they created the revolution or that the revolution couldn't exist without them.

Again, blaming foreigners for revolution is the first choice of the government that doesn't want to admit to its own role in producing revolution.


You seem to be influenced by the college shootings in the US expecting it to become revolutions!

The point was that a foreign power can not simply wave a wand and conjure up insurgency where the preconditions to insurgency - factors within the power of government to address - are not present. Governments need to spend less energy wailing about foreign subversion and more energy resolving those preconditions. Find and resolve the grievances and foreign subversion is a seed cast upon stone.

Dayuhan
08-22-2012, 11:21 PM
In 1982 the Heritage Foundation published Moscow and the Peace Offensive, which said that non-aligned peace organizations advocated similar policies on defence and disarmament to the Soviet Union. It argued that "pacifists and concerned Christians had been drawn into the Communist campaign largely unaware if its real sponsorship."

At that time it was fashionable in certain circles (Heritage also has an agenda) to accuse virtually anyone who disagreed with Government of being an unwilling tool of the Commie conspiracy. That label was applied to peace activists, antinuclear activists, civil rights activists, environmental activists, people who smoked dope, listened to loud music, and had long hair, to all kinds of folks who didn't quite fit the mold.

Ironically this view seemed to be shared inside the Communist movement: Soviet leaders routinely gloated that decadence and internal dissent would do their job for them and bring the West down.

What neither realized is that protest and divergence, and the ability to accommodate protest and divergence, did not make the west weaker, they made it stronger. The ability to generate diverse views, to accommodate protest and synthesize those views, is precisely what makes democracy strong, no matter how chaotic it seems.

How to respond top protest and criticism is one of the hardest lessons for a politician, and by extension a democracy, to learn. The stupid politician rejects protest, accuses it of conspiring with foreigners, suppresses it, demonizes it, calls out the constabulary to throw teargas and break heads.

The smart politician embraces protest. When angry people wave signs and shout slogans the smart politician goes to them, invites their leaders to dialogue, takes questions from the crowd, treats them with utmost politeness and expect no matter how hostile they are. By doing this you diffuse the crowd's energy and deprive them of motivation.

Ray
08-23-2012, 03:45 AM
I don't watch YouTube videos as a general rule, they take too damned long to load. There are a few drawbacks to living on the fringe in the 3rd world, slow internet is one of them. In any event I really don't need to be told what the west is, or that there are many views of the west in both Orient and Occident. I've spent enough years in the Orient to know that there is no single "Oriental view" of the west or of anything else. There are a number of competing views, as there are everywhere.

It is obvious patience is not your cup of tea. Of course, internet is slow in many countries. As skewed as your argument - Traffic is very slow and chaotic in Tokyo - I take it is therefore a third world country by your logic.

There is a drawback in living in all countries. Fast paced life kills in countries which makes every issue, an issue of time and life or death!

Of course one does not have to tell you anything on anything, since you obviously know better than the world!

If renowned Professors of US and UK ivy league Colleges know less than you, then your continuing to being in the back of nowhere, is indeed a loss to humanity and the world of knowledge!

Do forgive me, but your lack of giving the due to others does sort of make one wonder what’s the hangup all about? As per you, the Internet is bogus, the media knows nothing, Professors just blabber, Govts around the world are staffed by fools and the world leaders are total scoundrel. What is OK - that is, beyond the entity - you?!Why is such negativism consuming you? I presume the sun must have got you, like it got the colonial British in the Orient! ;)


Of course, though they are more likely to be assisted by foreign money... there's a big difference between "driven" and "assisted".

I would not know the difference since you alone know it, but this much I know (and I am not an American) that there is an Americanism – There is nothing called a Free Lunch! The more I see the ‘big bad world’, the more I realise the worth of this saying!


Credibility is based on the evidence and reasoning provided to support a proposition.

And Evidence can be manufactured to suit the flavour of the moment. I am sure you have heard about the WMDs of Iraq, the coup in Chile, how China was an evil Kingdom (and now the apple of the eye - that should strike a chord in your heart!) etc etc.


That Committe is not well remembered, and has a bit of a reputation as a vehicle for witch hunts. It is a source of questionable credibility, to say the least.

Very convenient!

Unpalatable truth brushed under the carpet!

Throughout the threads it is observed that whatever does not suit you, becomesa issues of questionable credibility.

Interesting ground-rules for debate with such a mindset.


They certainly know where their money comes from. NGO fundraising is brutally competitive and is one of the main functions of many organization. They keep very close track of their donors and learn all they can about them, mostly because they want to get more money.

Good that this was not a case of questionable credibility.


Perhaps you could cut to the chase and simply state which NGOs you think are supporting Maoist rebellion in India and which governments you think are backing them?

There is no chase at all.

Enough examples have been given of how the NGOs operate to serve the agenda of their Govt. But, you seem to be living in your own world!

I have already given you the Govt of India’s assertion as to who are organising the support to Maoist, but then you don’t wish to take note of things that does not suit your personal preserve!

You tend to obfuscate by brining in the US into everything just to go tangential and even irrelevant to the discussion - the aim being to deflect so continuously that the thought does into oblivion and beyond your being embarrassed!

And it is no rocket science that no Govt will announce that they are funding directly or indirectly organisations to serve its national policy, especially the policies that are not above board!



Ok, so who's trying to "maintain supremacy" by formenting rebellion in India, and what instruments do you think they are using?

Supremacy is not over a small patch of land. It is over a sphere and the envelope that is so spread is called ‘sphere of influence’. It is achieved by many instruments and this thread is not the place for me to amplify on geostrategy or geopolitics and how it is achieved.

You either know it or you don’t know it.

And if you don’t know it, the loss is yours and amplifying for you would be futile.


I see no relevance to the question at hand. What does Raymond Davis have to do with Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, etc giving money to antinuclear NGOs in India? Yes, intelligence agencies exist and so do covert operations. That doesn't mean anything that happens in the world is the result of a covert operation by an intelligence agency. Where's the evidence? Where's the motive?

As usual you are at what you are best at – obfuscate, deflect, divert. The ABCD of your style of debateing - Avoid, Bypass, Confuse, Deflect!

The Chinese (Red) are also good at the same or so is the perception in some quarters.


I don't doubt that they are funding NGOs. I doubt that they are funding NGOs who in turn fund Maoists or antinuclear demonstrations, not that those are in any way the same.

It is so obvious that you are so in yourself that you don’t even read the links!

I presume, you will now say that the servers are so slow in the third world countries and so you give them the go by. You always have such ingenuous answers!


Yes to both. Government does not control NGOs and cannot dictate their actions as long as they aren't caught breaking laws. Government wishes it could control NGOs. it can't. That's why they are called non government organizations.

Not caught breaking laws.

That is rich!


So why is support for anti-nuclear rallies being equated with suipport for Maoists?

This started out as a discussion of where Maoists get their money. Somehow funding for anti-nuclear rallies came into the picture. I'm not sure how that happened, and I'm not sure what the connection is between anti-nuclear rallies and Maoists.

ABCD, right?

You must read what is happening around the world and not be so much in yourself. Unless you do so, you will find that you confuse yourself and in your confusion confuse the other as to to what is going on or what is being said by you!

The world should not be your own crystal ball that is confined to the understanding within your grasp of events and is the sole Holy Cow around which the Cosmos MUST revolve!

Matthew 7:7 - seek and ye shall Find!

Ray
08-23-2012, 07:55 AM
Ref above post.


that the thought does into oblivion and beyond your being embarrassed!


For does, read, goes

Don't mix up issues of foreign funded NGOs to mean US funded NGOs, even if suits your desire to deflect the issues.

Note, as far as I am concerned, US is not the Great White Satan or the one which is anti China!

US is merely pursuing her national ambitions and policies to further its aims, as is every other country in the world!

It is just that the US has the clout to enforce it, while others may not be able to match up!

Dayuhan
08-23-2012, 10:43 PM
It is obvious patience is not your cup of tea. Of course, internet is slow in many countries.

One does not survive in Asia without patience.

Video news and analysis is not my cup of tea, especially when it takes forever and crams bandwith, though I also don't watch TV news. I'd rather read, I find it much more conducive to thought and analysis. You can read at your own pace, thinking as you do... patiently, if you will. Video doesn't allow that luxury, and images and their editing are tools for manipulation. Plus if you want to discuss a reference in print, you can clip it, quote it (with attribution), and talk about it. Can't do that with video. All in all, written references are much easier to access and much more conducive to discussion.


And Evidence can be manufactured to suit the flavour of the moment. I am sure you have heard about the WMDs of Iraq, the coup in Chile, how China was an evil Kingdom (and now the apple of the eye - that should strike a chord in your heart!) etc etc.

That's why the "evidence" anyone presents must be carefully and skeptically weighed, and constantly re-evaluated as new information becomes available. I was personally never convinced by the rhetoric on any of the issues you mention. Some people have been.

This gets confusing. You say this:


Enough examples have been given of how the NGOs operate to serve the agenda of their Govt. But, you seem to be living in your own world!

and you say this:


Don't mix up issues of foreign funded NGOs to mean US funded NGOs, even if suits your desire to deflect the issues.

and the articles you reference specifically refer to "US NGOs".

So when you say "their" NGOs, who's "they"? That certainly sounds as though US NGOs are supposedly the NGOs of the US government. If not, then whose NGOs are they? Must an NGO be the property of some government? Please clarify.

I have no doubt that US-based international NGOs are funneling money to the Indian antinuclear movement. I do have some doubts about them funneling money to Maoist rebels, a quite different thing: they would run the risk of getting caught, which would be very destructive to their organizations. The idea that these NGOs are working on behalf of some government (which one?) is unsupported by evidence and seems pretty far off the table.

I do not believe for a minute that the Chinese government (since China has been mentioned from time to time) is supporting US antinuclear and environmental NGOs, which are also vehement opponents of Chinese projects in China and around the world. The Chinese hate Greenpeace and Amnesty International more than the Indians do. The Philippine or Indian governments might see the environmental and human rights movements as a tool of international communism being used to undermine them, the Chinese think it's a tool of corporate capitalism being used to undermine them. An odd dichotomy, and one that makes me to some small extent sympathetic to the movements, on the (admittedly generic) basis that anyone getting that much hate from both ends of the ideological spectrum must be doing something right.


I have already given you the Govt of India’s assertion as to who are organising the support to Maoist, but then you don’t wish to take note of things that does not suit your personal preserve!

No, you haven't, not in any detail. There's been discussion of NGOs funding antinuclear demonstrations (not Maoist rebels) and a few mentions of China. Nothing more.


You tend to obfuscate by brining in the US into everything just to go tangential and even irrelevant to the discussion
It wasn't me who referenced articles blaming "US NGOs" and "Western Interests".


As usual you are at what you are best at – obfuscate, deflect, divert. The ABCD of your style of debateing - Avoid, Bypass, Confuse, Deflect!

Au contraire. I asked a simple question, and have tried to stay with the point. I wanted to know was who you think is funding Maoist rebels in India, and how, and to what extent. You managed to introduce antinuclear demonstrations, the HUAC, Raymond Davis, and any number of other issues that, while interesting in themselves, have no connection whatsoever to the financing of Maoist rebels in India. That sounds to me like ABCD, as you put it.

So perhaps just focus on the following:

Who do you think is funding the Maoist rebels in India? If NGOs, which ones? If governments, which ones? If NGOs working on behalf of governments, which NGOs working on behalf of which governments?

All I asked for was an opinion, though of course references and evidence related to the question are always useful.


Not caught breaking laws.

That is rich!

NGOs have to be very careful about breaking laws, especially NGOs that have uncomfortable, even adversarial relationships with government. The US Government would love to catch many of the cause-oriented NGOs breaking the law and have an excuse to move in on them. I'm sure many other governments feel the same way. The general consensus among governments - very much including China's - is that these organizations are a royal pain in the ass.

NGOs also have to be very careful about who they fund. The leaders of many of the more radical NGOs would be perfectly happy to fund violent organizations, but they have huge numbers of donors who earnestly believe that their money is saving cute cuddly baby animals from vicious corporations. If the organization gets caught out sending money to fund violence... end of money stream, end of party. Even the most radical NGO leaders value their paychecks and know whence they come.


You must read what is happening around the world and not be so much in yourself. Unless you do so, you will find that you confuse yourself and in your confusion confuse the other as to to what is going on or what is being said by you!

I read a great deal about what is happening in the world. I don't believe everything I read. Even when you try to avoid the nonsense you see a great deal of it.

Ray
08-25-2012, 07:16 PM
As usual, Thus Spake Sir Oracle!

Dayuhan
08-25-2012, 10:13 PM
Returning to the point after extended digression...

Who do you think is funding the Maoist rebels in India, and to what extent? If NGOs, which ones? If governments, which ones? If NGOs working on behalf of governments, which NGOs working on behalf of which governments?

All I asked for was an opinion, though of course references and evidence related to the question are always useful.

Ray
08-26-2012, 07:43 AM
It is all said in the links.

Seek and ye shall find!

Dayuhan
08-26-2012, 08:07 AM
What I'm asking for is your opinion... why would I look to a link to get that?

Besides, there's nothing at all in those links about financing for Maoists. You posted links to an article about DFID funding to NGOs, about allegations that Indian NGOs are diverting foreign funding to antinuclear demonstrations, and to videos about perceptions of the West. What does any of that have to do with funding for Maoist rebels?

It doesn't sound a difficult or complicated question to me:

Who do you think is funding the Maoist rebels in India, and to what extent? If NGOs, which ones? If governments, which ones? If NGOs working on behalf of governments, which NGOs working on behalf of which governments?

Ray
08-27-2012, 07:10 AM
I have already given what I think.

The final mystery is oneself.

Trust yourself. You know more than you think you do.

Dayuhan
08-28-2012, 10:34 AM
I have already given what I think.

Looking back over recent posts, I don't think you have, not in any specific sense.

This one did stand out though:


This spreading of “awareness”, “promotion”, and “advocacy” by foreign funded NGOs is what fuels the fire and leads to insurgencies and Maoism.

That seems a bit curious, honestly. How does exercise of the normal rights to freedom of speech, freedom to organize, not to mention the fundamental right to peacefully resist government or to seek redress for grievance lead to insurgency and Maoism? And if it's ok for the government to seek foreign help to build a nuclear plant, how is it not ok for opponents to seek foreign help to oppose it?

Does resisting a nuclear power plant, or urging others to resist, make you a Maoist? How about objecting to being thrown off your land to make way for a factory, a dam, or a mine? Are people who object to being beaten by the police Maoists?

I'd be curious about your impression of this report, which suggests that the Maoists also see NGO workers as a threat:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/07/30/india-government-maoists-target-civil-society-activists

VCheng
08-28-2012, 04:15 PM
from: India (http://www.economist.com/node/21560901)




India’s north-east
A neglected crisis
Violence in distant Assam boils over in the rest of the country
Aug 25th 2012 | KOKRAJHAR, ASSAM AND PUNE | from the print edition


On July 6th, a month after an altercation at a mosque in a region run by (non-Muslim) tribesmen in north-east India, four men on motorcycles shot and killed two Muslims. Six weeks later, some 80 people have been killed in communal bloodletting; the army has been sent into Assam with orders to shoot to kill; tens of thousands of north-easterners in other parts of India have fled homeward in fear of their lives; India has accused Pakistanis of being the origin of doctored video messages designed to stir up religious hatred; and 400,000-500,000 Indians are homeless or displaced within Assam, the largest involuntary movement of people inside the country since independence. How on earth did a local conflict, one of many in the area, produce such devastating nationwide consequences?

The spark for the extraordinary sequence of events was a fight in western Assam between indigenous Bodo tribesmen (pronounced Boro) and Bengali-speakers who have been moving into the area for more than a century. The Bodo say the incomers are illegal immigrants from Bangladesh and want them to be kicked out.

The migrants are mostly Muslim. The Bodo are animist or Christian. Muslims have grown modestly as a share of Assam’s population (from 24% to 31% in the three decades to 2001). No surge explains the latest violence, although the Muslim population of western Assam is growing faster. In some villages the Bodo are now a minority. They say they feel swamped by Muslim immigrants.

However, the conflict is not primarily about religion. It is about land. The Bodo hold land in common. The Bengali-speakers are settled farmers, anxious to establish private-property rights as protection against dispossession. In 2003, after a long, violent campaign for autonomy, the Bodo got their own Bodo Territorial Council, on whose turf outsiders may not own property. The Bodo consider all Muslims outsiders—hence the dispute at the mosque.

Assam’s conflict has been going on for decades. A massacre in 1983 was far more brutal than this year’s violence. Yet until now the dispute, like other insurgencies of the north-east, has had no real impact elsewhere in the country.

This time, there were riots in Mumbai and attacks in nearby Pune on people from Manipur. Some 30,000 north-easterners fled from Bangalore, nine of them being thrown off a moving train. Some authorities encouraged the exodus by laying on special trains: 30,000 tickets to Guwahati, Assam’s capital, were sold in three days.

The impact of mobile phones has made a difference. On August 12th people started getting text messages warning north-easterners to go home before the end of Ramadan (August 20th). They also got video messages with doctored images purporting to show the bodies of Muslims killed in Assam. In fact these were victims of Cyclone Nargis in 2008 in Myanmar.

India’s home minister, Sushil Kumar Shinde, said that many of the fake images came from websites in Pakistan and asked for the Pakistani government’s help in closing them down. Pakistan denied involvement. India ordered the blocking of over 250 websites and asked mobile-service providers to restrict the number of SMS messages. Yet the images have gone viral.

The Assam conflict also spread because people elsewhere sought to capitalise on it. Mumbai saw rival protests by a big Muslim organisation, the Raza Academy, then a big Hindu one, the Maharashtra Navnirman Sena. The opposition (Hindu-nationalist) Bharatiya Janata Party said Assam’s problem is illegal immigration from Bangladesh. Assam is ruled by the Congress party. Its chief minister, Tarun Gogoi, said bluntly “there are no Bangladeshis in the clash but Indian citizens.” The Assam conflict has not been such partisan fodder before.

The reverberations across the rest of the country may force Indians to focus for once on the chronic failings of government policy in the north-east. Linked to the rest of the country only by a “chicken’s neck” stretch of land 22km wide, the region is isolated, poor and different. Assam, easily its biggest state, is one of India’s poorest. North-easterners look different: a Manipuri teacher in Pune says everyone from passers-by to his pupils calls him, offensively, “Chinky”. North-easterners call the rest of the country “mainland India”.

One manifestation of this distinctiveness is the persistence of insurgencies. The Institute for Conflict Management, a think-tank, lists 26 active armed groups in the region, and ten organisations proscribed by India’s home ministry. There are armed separatists in five of the seven states. In the early 2000s the death toll was 1,700 a year.

Dealing with such a region was always going to be hard. Yet successive governments have made things worse. They have attempted to placate insurgent groups by giving them more autonomy. The north-east has 16 such areas, more than the rest of India. But giving each group a place of its own creates restive new minorities within the area—as in Bodoland.

National politicians have also shied away from dealing with illegal migration, partly because the issue is toxic and partly because local politicians like to register newcomers as voters. For a while, Assam even had its own immigration policy, until that was struck down by the Supreme Court. By letting ambiguity about incomers’ legal status persist, politicians leave the field open to armed extremists who want to kick all Muslims out.

Central governments have attempted to buy peace. Between 20% and 55% of north-eastern states’ GDP comes in transfers from the centre—a huge proportion. It keeps their economies going, but turns local governments into client states surrounded by autonomous areas ruled by former insurgents, while armed gangs wage guerrilla campaigns at the margins.

It is fair to say there have been some improvements. Fatalities have fallen since 2008, thanks to a deal with Bangladesh which denied some insurgents their former bases. But as is clear from the Bodo conflict, the grievances which produced the insurgencies remain. India’s long-term goals in the region are to encourage its integration with the rest of the country, to use the north-east to boost economic ties with South-East Asia, and to check China’s influence in Myanmar. At the moment, none of those aims is being advanced.



from the print edition | Asia

Ray
08-29-2012, 02:45 PM
It is an undeniable fact that in the hierarchy of what passes off as “national” news, northeastern India occupies the lowest rung. While periodic lip-service is paid to the need to rectify matters and bring this much-neglected part of India into the “mainstream” discourse, the bewildering complexity of the region and its relative inaccessibility has ensured that the Northeast remains an afterthought, a sort of fourth world in the third world.......

Was it, as many insisted, a “communal” clash involving Hindu Bodos and Muslim settlers who had arrived from what is now Bangladesh? Alternatively, was it an ethnic clash involving the indigenous Bodos and Bengali-speaking immigrants? The underlying presumption was that while a “communal” clash was unacceptable, an “ethnic” conflict was nominally less damning.....


However, what is clear is that in trying to slot the violence into pre-determined compartments and exploring the vexed question of administrative culpability, the media and the political class are taking evasive action. There is an uncomfortable dimension to this ethnic-communal flare-up in Kokrajhar and Dhubri that decision-makers would rather not address, not least because they have no answers to offer.

That the origins of the violence lie in the demographic upheaval Assam has been witnessing for the past 100 years is undeniable. Thanks to waves of immigration from the region that is now Bangladesh, the population of Assam increased from 3.29 million in 1901 to 14.6 million in 1971, a 343.7 per cent increase compared to the all-India increase of nearly 150 per cent in the same period. Public intellectuals in Assam have stressed that the increase of the Muslim population has been disproportionate. In an unusual intervention last week, the election commissioner, H.S. Brahma suggested that the details of the 2011 census may reveal that 11 of the 27 districts of Assam now have a Muslim majority.

While the issue of “illegal immigration” from Bangladesh has formed an important part of the public discourse of the Assamese-speaking Hindus of the Brahmaputra valley, it has become a paramount issue for the Bodo-speaking minority living in the areas that constituted the undivided Goalpara district. The Bodo-speaking minority, which accounts for only five per cent of the population, perceives a dual threat to their existence: a cultural challenge from the Assamese-speaking majority and a physical challenge from Bangladeshi Muslims who constitute the majority in Dhubri and whose presence is increasingly being felt in the Bodo heartland of Kokrajhar district.

The emergence of militant Bodo sub-nationalism in the 1990s was an attempt to cope with these twin challenges and led to the formation of the semi-autonomous Bodoland Territorial Council in 2003. However, much of the political gains from militant identity politics have been offset by the growing assertiveness of the Muslim community. The rise of the All India United Democratic Front led by Maulana Badruddin Ajmal, the All Assam Minority Students Union and the Asom Mia Parishad has triggered a frontal Bodo-Muslim confrontation. Tensions have further risen following the AIUDF demand that the BTC be abolished because Bodos no longer constitute a majority in large areas governed by it. In an astute move, Ajmal has taken care to develop links with major Muslim organizations throughout India to ensure that the concerns of his social base are easily translated into “national” Muslim concerns.

Confronted with this seemingly intractable situation, both Delhi and Dispur have fallen back on homilies. Following his tour of the relief camps earlier this week, (then) Home Minister P. Chidambaram took recourse to pious platitudes: “There are people from a variety of communities living in Assam now. Ultimately, people of all communities would have to learn to live together in peace.” There was not a word about border fencing or possible modifications to the farcical Illegal Migrants (Determination by Tribunal) Act. Dependant on Bodo support in Dispur but equally concerned with Muslim support at an all-India level, the Congress has very little space to manoeuvre. It can merely hope that any future conflict can be averted by more efficient administrative measures. Meanwhile, ground reports suggest an ongoing process of ethnic cleansing. Bodos in Dhubri are moving to Kokrajhar, and dispossessed Muslims of Kokrajhar are moving to Dhubri. Some may even find their way into West Bengal.

In 1947, the Muslim community was a frightened minority, unsure of its position in an India that never took too kindly to the painful Partition in two wings. In 2012, Indian secularism is deeply entrenched and has ensured both dignity and political empowerment to religious minorities, sometimes by way of exceptional consideration. A problem, however, is likely to arise if the empowerment of minorities becomes a byword for injustice to others. For the Bodo minority of Assam, the practice of secular politics is coming to imply the possible extinction of their very identity.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120803/jsp/opinion/story_15804467.jsp#.UBtN-U3ia8s


**************************

This issue in this area is:

1. It is a communal clash as also an ethnic clash.

2. As per the Indian law, no non tribal can settle or buy land in tribal area. The areas where the clash have taken place is Bodo, territory, which mean tribal territory.

3. It is a well known fact that there has been immigrants coming into Assam and since Bodoland is where there was land, they have settled there.

4. It is also a known fact that certain political parties turned a blind eye to illegal immigrants since they being 'minorities' would increase their vote bank and ensure that they remain in power. This is not confined to Assam alone, but all States bordering Bangladesh.

5. Statistically it is unique that the population of Assam increased from 3.29 million in 1901 to 14.6 million in 1971, a 343.7 per cent increase compared to the all-India increase of nearly 150 per cent in the same period.

6. Statitcally, it is also unique that the 2011 census reveals that 11 of the 27 districts of Assam now have a Muslim majority, how did that happen?

Therefore, there are good reasons for conflicts in this region.

Ray
08-29-2012, 02:55 PM
‘Illegal Immigrants’ Awareness Campaign in Nagaland

Described as an awareness campaign, the Public Action Committee (PAC) on illegal immigrants Thursday visited Hazi Park and Burma Camp East Block Dimapur where around 200 Muslim settlers were made to sign a bond providing three days to prove themselves as Indian citizens. In the event of failure to honour the undertaking, the business establishments of the signatories would be closed down by the PAC and the illegal immigrants would be deported.

PAC Co-ordinator, Joel said that since 1963, the government has identified only 28 illegal immigrants and that only 20 were deported. He also said that around 6000 illegal immigrants enter Dimapur daily from Lahorijan, Assam and engage in various livelihood means as labourers, businessmen, butchers, contract killers etc. He expressed apprehension that a time might come when the illegal immigrants would overshadow the Nagas even politically.

http://www.northeasttoday.in/our-states/nagaland/%E2%80%98illegal-immigrants%E2%80%99-awareness-campaign-in-nagaland/

***********************

Christianity is the predominant religion of Nagaland. The state's population is 1.988 million, out of which 90.02% are Christians. The census of 2001 recorded the state's Christian population at 1,790,349, making it, with Meghalaya and Mizoram, one of the three Christian-majority states in India and the only state where Christians form 90% of the population. The state has a very high church attendance rate in both urban and rural areas. Huge churches dominate the skylines of Kohima, Dimapur, and Mokokchung.

Nagaland is known as "the only predominantly Baptist state in the world."

Therefore, the issue is not communal per se and instead is basically of being swamped by illegal Bangaldeshi Muslims.

The manner the Bangladeshi Muslims have made an inroad in Bodo area and are now demanding that they are the majority as also are now a force in the politics of Assam (Bodoland is a part of Assam) has made all worried that one day their identity, culture, and everything will be swamped and the Bangladeshis will take over their State.

And who knows, they may become a part of Greater Bangladesh.

Ray
08-29-2012, 02:58 PM
Greater Bangladesh is a political theory that People's Republic of Bangladesh is trying for the territorial expansion to include the Indian states of West Bengal, Assam and others in northeastern India.

The theory is principally based on fact that a large number of Bangladeshi illegal immigrants reside in Indian territory.

In 2002, nine Islamic groups including Indian militant organizations Muslim United Liberation Tigers of Assam (MULTA), Muslim United Liberation Front of Assam (MULFA) and Muslim Volunteer Force (MVF), Pakistani militant organization Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (HUM), Myanmar groups Rohingya Solidarity Organization (RSO) and Arakan Ronhingya Islamic Front of Mynamar (ARIFM), and Harkat-ul-Jihad al-Islami, a pan-South Asian militant organization outlawed in Bangladesh with leaders sentenced to death,formed a coalition that declared the formation Greater Bangladesh as one of their aims

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Bangladesh

Ray
08-29-2012, 03:03 PM
Mumbai's Azad Maidan violence: Masterminds still on the run

Fifty one people have been arrested on charges of murder and rioting from various parts of Mumbai, like, Govandi, Kurla, Wadala, Malvani and even Thane.
CCTV footage, mobile footage, mobile tower locations and witness statements have led to these arrests.
But, investigators are yet to nab the ringleaders who co-ordinated and marshalled these groups to execute the pre-planned mayhem.
The questions which remain unanswered are, how can isolated groups of rioters from different parts of Mumbai act in such a well-coordinated manner? And, with many of those arrested having criminal records, were some of the known criminal elements at work?
And why still no action against speakers? Out of the 17 speakers at the gathering, the violence erupted during the 5th speaker's speech. Two of those speeches have been termed 'aggressive'....

Is the police under political pressure to not to act against some elements? And where are the missing weapons?

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/azad-maidan-violence-masterminds-still-on-the-run/285738-3-237.html

*******************

Indeed the police is under political pressure.

Without the Muslim votebank, those in power will not be in power.

That is a well known fact and is known universally in India, as the "Vote-Bank" politics.

Ray
08-29-2012, 03:21 PM
On 11 August 2012, a Muslim protest against the riots in Assam and attacks on Muslims in Burma was held at Azad Maidan in Mumbai. The protest was organised by Raza Academy, and was attended by two other groups, Sunni Jamaitul Ulma and Jamate Raza-e-Mustafa.

Amar Jawan Jyoti memorial for martyred soldiers in South Mumbai was destroyed by the mob.

On August 17, 2012, Muslim mobs resorted to large scale violence against mediapersons, bystanders, shops, vehicles and tourists in several cities including Lucknow, Kanpur and Allahabad.

In Lucknow, after the Friday Namaz, a mob of 500 ravaged various landmarks of the city including Buddha Park, Haathi Park, Shaheed Smarak and Parivartan Chowk, and vandalized many statues including those of Gautam Buddha and Mahavira.

30,000 people from North East India have fled Bangalore after attacks and threats of more impending attacks on them after Ramzan. Shiyeto from Nagaland, resident of Bangalore, was attacked by a group of people who threatened to kill him if he did not leave the city before Ramzan which is on August 20.

Cities of Pune, Chennai and Hyderabad also witnessed exodus of people from North East. In national capital Delhi, messages claiming that people from the North-East will be targeted, particularly after Ramzan, have started circulating.

Union Home Ministry has banned bulk SMS, MMS for 15 days to quell rumours and threats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Assam_violence

****************

Morphed MMSes showing pictures of the Tibetan Uprising and passing it off as Burmese atrocities against the Rohingyas (Muslims of the Arakan) and riots in Bodo areas and inflammatory SMSes, apart from radical Muslim organisation holding rallies with fiery speech agitated a large section of the Indian Muslim community.

Then the threat SMSes to the North Eastern people in Mumbai, Pune and South India (which is the education hub and IT hub and where there are many NE people) were sent.

Given the aggressiveness associated with the Muslim, the people left and went back to their respective States.

The NE is predominantly Christians, animist and Buddhist. Assam is Hindu.

It is interesting to wonder as to how India is anyway connected to what the Burmese are doing to the Rohingyas of Burma.

This is the type of irrationality that prevails and is employed to engineer riots.

Dayuhan
08-29-2012, 09:47 PM
Muslims have grown modestly as a share of Assam’s population (from 24% to 31% in the three decades to 2001). No surge explains the latest violence, although the Muslim population of western Assam is growing faster. In some villages the Bodo are now a minority. They say they feel swamped by Muslim immigrants.

However, the conflict is not primarily about religion. It is about land. The Bodo hold land in common. The Bengali-speakers are settled farmers, anxious to establish private-property rights as protection against dispossession. In 2003, after a long, violent campaign for autonomy, the Bodo got their own Bodo Territorial Council, on whose turf outsiders may not own property. The Bodo consider all Muslims outsiders—hence the dispute at the mosque.

This sounds an awful lot like Mindanao, though of course in Mindanao Muslims and animists were swamped by Christian settlers. These situations can produce extremely intractable conflicts, especially if government is perceived as aiding or siding with the immigrants, and if no action is taken until the settlers are well entrenched and approaching (or have attained) majority status.

If the settlers are in fact illegal immigrants the government will have some basis to act, but I'd guess they'll need to act sooner rather than later.

davidbfpo
09-13-2012, 08:54 PM
An Indian journalist writes on the COIN campaign:
Spent Force
Amidst the bullets and bloodshed, what has the government's counterinsurgency program in Chhattisgarh achieved?

This is the conflict with India's Maoists and appears quite different to the thred on Kashmir:
“The insistence on operations, operations and more operations has reduced the entire anti-Naxal operation business to sheer mazdoori—and that’s why it is now done without any heart or mind in it,” said a senior police officer, explaining that most operations had no coherent aim beyond signaling the presence of troops in Maoist affected areas. “Troops are marching day in day out—without any intelligence worth its name… They are just going into jungles and coming back.”

Link:http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Story/1545/Spent-Force-.html

Ray
09-14-2012, 03:41 AM
The Army is not involved in the anti Maoist operations.

The Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) is involved. They are policemen and have very little military training. Hence, they operate like a police force, treating the matter as if it were a law and order problem.

However, in Bengal, the paramilitary forces and with pro tribal initiatives by the State Govt have been able to achieve some results.

SWJ Blog
12-06-2012, 12:01 PM
Counter-Insurgency Best Practices: Applicability to Northeast India (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/counter-insurgency-best-practices-applicability-to-northeast-india)

Entry Excerpt:



--------
Read the full post (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/counter-insurgency-best-practices-applicability-to-northeast-india) and make any comments at the SWJ Blog (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog).
This forum is a feed only and is closed to user comments.

SWJ Blog
12-06-2012, 12:01 PM
Counter-Insurgency Best Practices: Applicability to Northeast India (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/counter-insurgency-best-practices-applicability-to-northeast-india)

Copied here for reference.

blueblood
12-23-2012, 12:26 PM
JeM's last visible commander killed

The “divisional commander” of Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM), Yasir alias Yasir Tunda was killed in Rafiabad area of Baramulla district in the early hours of Saturday in a joint operation by the Special Operations Group (SOG) of Jammu and Kashmir Police and the army.

Inspector General of Police, Kashmir Zone, Shiv Murari Sahai, told The Hindu that the operation was launched after Sopore Police received a tip off late on Friday, suggesting the presence of the JeM commander at the hideout. SOG Sopore and Rashtriya Rifles 22 Bn swooped on the militant at the house of Ali Mohammad Bhat at Chatlora village.

blueblood
12-23-2012, 01:00 PM
Counter-Insurgency Best Practices: Applicability to Northeast India (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/counter-insurgency-best-practices-applicability-to-northeast-india)

Copied here for reference.

Lengthy but nice article.

davidbfpo
05-27-2013, 07:29 PM
This thread has posts on the Maoist insurgency in Chhattisgarh and an ambush this week has led to renewed local press commentary. So what was different with this ambush?

Answer - politics:
Suspected Maoist rebels set off a landmine and opened fire on a convoy of cars carrying local leaders and supporters of India's ruling Congress party in eastern India, killing at least 23 people and wounding 32 others, local police said.

Politics plus revenge are not a good mix:
Police identified one of those killed as Mahendra Karma, a Congress leader in Chhattisgarh state who founded a local militia, the Salwa Judum, to combat the Maoist rebels. The anti-rebel militia had to be reined in after it was accused of atrocities against tribals – indigenous people at the bottom of India's rigid social ladder.

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/10081203/Suspected-Maoist-rebels-attack-convoy-carrying-members-of-Indias-ruling-party-killing-23.html

Having Israeli-supplied drones, flown by the Air Force, has a few local problems - poor quarters for the pilots - and there remains:
.. despite having hardware, the coordination and sharing of intelligence data remains a deeply problematic issue for the Indian forces.

Link:http://www.firstpost.com/india/exclusive-how-the-air-force-killed-drone-wars-in-chhattisgarh-816465.html

Ray
05-28-2013, 04:07 AM
This thread has posts on the Maoist insurgency in Chhattisgarh and an ambush this week has led to renewed local press commentary. So what was different with this ambush?

Answer - politics:

Politics plus revenge are not a good mix:

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/10081203/Suspected-Maoist-rebels-attack-convoy-carrying-members-of-Indias-ruling-party-killing-23.html

Having Israeli-supplied drones, flown by the Air Force, has a few local problems - poor quarters for the pilots - and there remains:

Link:http://www.firstpost.com/india/exclusive-how-the-air-force-killed-drone-wars-in-chhattisgarh-816465.html

This typifies motivated reporting.

Salwa Judum means “Peace March” or “Purification Hunt’ in Gondi language, which is a tribal language. This was raised with local tribal youth to counter the Maoist violence and was assisted by the Chattisgarh Govt. The person who was killed and who founded this organisation was himself a tribal! That he was a very popular person was exhibited by the unprecedented and massive turnout of tribal people at his funeral!

The Maoists have repeatedly prevented the Govt from doing any constructive work in the areas the Maoist control and have prevented electricity, road, water supply constructions reaching the tribal areas. They attack all efforts to put up TV transmission towers (terrestrial TV) in order to keep the tribal belt ignorant of the happenings around the country and progress planned.

The Supreme Court of India passed a judgement, on a plea from the Human Rights organisations, that the militia is unconstitutional, and ordered its disbanding.

It has to be said that Human Rights organisations in India are more of ‘wannabes’ attempting to clone themselves on western concepts without a shred of knowledge of the issues since they operate from air conditioned offices in Delhi with occasional forays in the danger zones on Maoist sponsored conducted tours. Likewise, the Judges have no experience of insurgency or counter insurgency and hence their judgement on these issues is more academic than practical.

Also interesting is that the so called Human Rights NGOs and the Judges conveniently forget the havoc, murder, loot and killing the Maoists are indulging in these areas and make no mention of the same. There are even those who glibly laud the Maoist and their activities! Even on National TV!

It maybe added that one Binayak Sen, who was promoting Maoist sympathies and literature and assisting Maoist overtly was jailed. However, under the barrage of international bigwigs and intellectuals and Pollyannas, he was released. What is most surprising is that the Govt of India, which is also battling Naxals and Maoists, appointed this very same man as a Member of the Planning Commission (the supreme body that decides and suggest national policies to the Govt of India)!

The whole problem is that there is a total lack of political will to fight the Maoists and Naxal and instead meander like a rudderless leaky boat with the cox having gone off to sleep at the rudder.

On the issue of Drones, there are very few available to carry out 24 x 7 surveillance over all areas of strategic importance to India, to include the Arabian Sea, Indian Ocean and the Bay of Bengal as also sensitive areas in the massive land mass of India. Yet, the knowalls are ready to excoriate all concerned and nitpick, conveniently missing the woods for the trees and misinforming the readers!

Red Rat
05-28-2013, 10:21 AM
Interesting analysis of Security Force problems in Chhattisgarh.

Praveen Swami is probably one to track on twitter feed for those interested in the situation there.

Chhattisgarh Attack: Why India is losing its war against the Naxals (http://www.firstpost.com/india/chhattisgarh-attack-why-india-is-losing-its-war-against-naxals-820595.html)

Ray
05-29-2013, 06:52 AM
Interesting analysis of Security Force problems in Chhattisgarh.

Praveen Swami is probably one to track on twitter feed for those interested in the situation there.

Chhattisgarh Attack: Why India is losing its war against the Naxals (http://www.firstpost.com/india/chhattisgarh-attack-why-india-is-losing-its-war-against-naxals-820595.html)

With a caveat that he is a journalist and has no hands on experience, unlike many western journalists who have had military training and experience and can understand issues more incisively.

Notwithstanding, he is more knowledgeable amongst journalists on security issues.

davidbfpo
07-27-2013, 02:53 PM
At an academic seminar one speaker posed the question: Are the Naxalites or AQ a bigger threat to global security?

The discussion that followed, without any Indians present, remarked on the spread of the Naxalites, citing quite a high % of India's land mass being affected. Then the reluctance of the central government to even talk about the problem, let alone take action.

So the following comments by a "lurker" help to understand:
The real reasons are the constitutional arrangement in which the Central Government. has no direct role in CT or law & order action in the twenty-eight states except when providing extra manpower at the states' request and this has resulted in a highly fragmented police & CT machinery. Secondly the inability of the State Police to meet the trans-state or trans-national terrorist challenges due to poor training and that the State politicians object to Central Government initiatives on law & order and CT action.

Ray
07-29-2013, 05:10 AM
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT4l_1qUFoRiRZImEJaLWs4xjrZwcsOx X8mabtHtNaSzWGSJE3SBA

It is being treated as a State issue since law and order is under the jurisdiction of the State.

If it were to be taken as terrorism, then it would be an Union Govt responsibility.

SWJ Blog
07-30-2013, 02:42 AM
Left-wing Extremism: Rethinking India’s COIN Strategy (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/left-wing-extremism-rethinking-india%E2%80%99s-coin-strategy)

Entry Excerpt:



--------
Read the full post (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/left-wing-extremism-rethinking-india%E2%80%99s-coin-strategy) and make any comments at the SWJ Blog (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog).
This forum is a feed only and is closed to user comments.

davidbfpo
01-06-2014, 02:54 PM
Elsewhere on SWJ mention has been made pf the apparent absence of an internal jihadist activity when compared to the size of India's Muslim minority, so Stephen Tankel's latest offering 'Jihadist Violence: The Indian Threat' may help understanding. I have not read the paper yet; the summary says:
India faces many well-known challenges, from corruption to environmental degradation. A lesser-noted challenge is domestic militancy. This new study, produced by noted South Asia security expert Stephen Tankel, focuses on the Indian Mujahideen (IM)--a loosely organized indigneous Islamist militant network. IM, Prof. Tankel argues, is "an internal security issue with an external dimension." Its leadership is currently based in Pakistan, but the organization represents a response to Indian domestic failings.

Link:http://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/jihadist-violence-the-indian-threat

davidbfpo
01-07-2014, 10:02 AM
A "lurker" has responded and pointed to a 2009 academic conference paper by a retired Indian police / intelligence official. The paper takes a broad approach and contains some "gems" on Indian terrorism - especially on how officialdom has responded:
Since the outbreak of modern day terrorism in India in the early 1980s, our counter-terrorist policy has been stymied by a constant refrain from experts and government agencies that all terrorism in India including Sikh militancy were only the result of religious or ideological subversion from abroad, especially Pakistan. This was based on an illusory political hypothesis that Indian citizens by themselves were unsympathetic to militancy in their country and needed to be prodded from outside. At various stages even North East militancy or Maoist violence was branded as inspired from abroad.

blueblood
02-20-2014, 04:29 PM
For the first time since 1994, the year 2012 registered a total number of terrorism and insurgency linked fatalities across India in the three digits – at 804, as against 1,073 in 2011 and a peak of 5,839 in 2001. The trend of sustained decline in such fatalities has been near-unbroken since 2001 (with a marginal reversal in 2008), giving tremendous relief to theatres of persistent violence. The most prominent among these is Jammu and Kashmir (J&K), which has been wracked by a Pakistan-backed Islamist terrorist movement since 1988, with a resultant total of 43,439 fatalities (till March 10, 2013). J&K recorded 117 fatalities in 2012, down from 183 in 2011; and a peak of 4,507 in 2001.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/index.html
..........

Seems like a massive decline in the number of fatalities but I fear these numbers may go up after US leaves Astan this year.

davidbfpo
09-10-2014, 09:32 PM
Shashank Joshi, of RUSI, has a commentary in The Hindu, an Indian newspaper, on Al-Qaeda’s announcement of the creation of a South Asian wing, al-Qaeda in the Indian Subcontinent (AQIS):http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/comment-article-a-welcome-record-of-failure/article6394996.ece?homepage=true

Ray
09-11-2014, 12:03 PM
One should not be too perturbed about this ISIS.

After the demise of their Prophet, Islam converted from a Spiritual Islam to a Political Islam - meaning seeking who is the real inheritor of their Prophet. It simple terms - raw Power Lust!

Till now, it was confined to two major sects. They have been at it decimating the other all over the world.

Now, it has shifted to individuals using Islam for their own self aggrandisation.

They will fight each other to the last Moslem.

davidbfpo
09-15-2014, 07:50 PM
Peter Bergen:
The idea that Ayman al-Zawahiri (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/topic/Ayman%20al-Zawahiri) is going to open a branch of al-Qaeda in India is just crazy. Yes, there are some jihadi elements in India, but there's no evidence that al-Qaeda has a presence in the country...It's an attempt by Zawahiri to have people like us discuss him, because he's been out of the limelight for so long, it's all been about ISIS in Iraq and Syria and al-Qaeda is very conscious that they're yesterday's story....ISIS is a much more appealing media strategy, apart from the fact that also they are being much more successful than al-Qaeda has ever been in its history in terms of getting territory, money, fighters and actually establishing a large foothold in the Middle East..

Husain Haqqani, the former Pakistan Ambassador to US:
I think that Zawahiri's attempt to talk about India is essentially to try and get the hard line elements among Pakistani jihadis and even within the Pakistani intelligence service to think about al-Qaeda as a potential ally. That's his play. I don't think he will get much traction. But basically what he's trying to do is to appeal to the anti-Indian sentiment that is present in Pakistan on any given day and hoping to get recruits for his cause

Link:http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2014-09-08/news/53691397_1_counter-terrorism-zawahiri-isis

WGEwald
09-15-2014, 11:54 PM
One should not be too perturbed about this ISIS.

After the demise of their Prophet, Islam converted from a Spiritual Islam to a Political Islam - meaning seeking who is the real inheritor of their Prophet. It simple terms - raw Power Lust!

Till now, it was confined to two major sects. They have been at it decimating the other all over the world.

Now, it has shifted to individuals using Islam for their own self aggrandisation.

They will fight each other to the last Moslem.

Sir, perhaps this article will be of interest to you.



http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/09/13/featured/what-can-isis-do-in-pakistan/

A quote


With the ISIS taking over the TTP as the chief terrorist organisation in Pakistan, obviously all Taliban apologists would henceforth be dubbed ISIS apologists. There’s one in sleeping inside a container at D-Chowk right now, who would be the first to dub ISIS freedom fighters. ISIS can then join the Azadi March, help dethrone the prime minister and take the democratic route towards the caliphate.

What would be the implications for India if ISIS were successful in that goal?

I know you call this site "Yawn", but...

http://www.dawn.com/news/1116799


Among many factors, the Pakistani state's protracted apathy and inaction on the issue of security has provided non-state actors the spaces to grow and expand their influence. They used these spaces not only to propagate their ideologies and narratives but also to establish a 'state within the state' in Pakistan's tribal areas.

Even as counteraction is now underway, the sudden rise of ISIS has threatened to make matters worse for us.

WGEwald
09-16-2014, 12:03 AM
Mr. Khorasani has long been seen as one of the movement’s most ideological commanders, and his separation from the main Taliban branch prompted speculation among experts over an alliance with ISIS, which has captured a vast section of territory across Syria and Iraq and has declared itself the new Islamic caliphate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/27/world/asia/hard-line-splinter-group-galvanized-by-isis-emerges-from-pakistani-taliban.html?_r=0

WGEwald
09-16-2014, 12:04 AM
The ISIS, introducing itself as Daulat-e-Islamia (Islamic State) in the pamphlet, has made an appeal to the local population for supporting its struggle for the establishment of an Islamic caliphate.

A number of hardline groups operating in Pakistan and Afghanistan have already announced support for the group headed by Afghan Taliban. Among them, Abdul Rahim Muslim Dost and Maulvi Abdul Qahar, stalwarts of Saudi Arabia-backed Salafi Taliban groups operating in Nuristan and Kunar provinces of Afghanistan, have already announced support for the self-styled caliph Abu Bakr alBaghdadi.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/757200/spillover-effect-isis-makes-inroads-into-pakistan/

WGEwald
09-16-2014, 12:06 AM
ISIS pamphlets and flags have appeared in parts of Pakistan and India, signs that the ultra-radical Islamist group is trying to inspire militants even in the strongholds of the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

A splinter group of Pakistan's Taliban insurgents, Jamat-ul Ahrar, has already declared its support for the well-funded and ruthless Islamic State of Iraq and Syria fighters, who have captured large swathes of territory in Iraq and Syria in a drive to set up a self-declared caliphate.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/isis-propaganda-material-turns-up-in-pakistan-india-1.2758299

Ray
09-21-2014, 07:48 AM
Sir, perhaps this article will be of interest to you.



http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/09/13/featured/what-can-isis-do-in-pakistan/

A quote



What would be the implications for India if ISIS were successful in that goal?

I know you call this site "Yawn", but...

http://www.dawn.com/news/1116799

Thanks.

I wonder if ISIS will come to India and if it will be successful.

That apart, check this
http://www.smallwars.com/forum/analysis-of-regions-nations/65-india-s-counter-insurgency-experience

davidbfpo
11-18-2014, 10:21 AM
A reasonably lengthy Indian newspaper review of the role of the soldier (and paramilitary) in India today and I do rather like the phrase 'Garrison governance':http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/the-soldier-as-state-actor/article6608758.ece?homepage=true

davidbfpo
03-18-2015, 07:56 AM
The map is great, partly as I don't recall catching one before. The accompanying report darws attention to the impact of actual and potential gains from mining iron ore in large areas of the maoist insurgency:http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-09/india-closes-in-on-maoist-jungle-stronghold-to-win-mining-riches?

http://media.gotraffic.net/images/i9DCg57OjoWg/v18/1200x-1.jpg

blueblood
05-22-2015, 12:37 AM
A reasonably lengthy Indian newspaper review of the role of the soldier (and paramilitary) in India today and I do rather like the phrase 'Garrison governance':http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/the-soldier-as-state-actor/article6608758.ece?homepage=true

About the author.

Vasundhara has previously worked on student politics in India, right-wing movements and gender terrorism. Vasundhara has an MA and an M.Phil degree from the Center for Political Studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University.


These words when stitched together have been more detrimental to India than the 10,000 trained militants in the LeT training camp. JNU is an eminent organization that has, for the last 45 years provided India with an unlimited supply of "Jholawallas".

https://sites.google.com/site/brfdictionary/glossary/j/jholawala

An article which was written about these "jholawalas" 25 years ago has reappeared and is as true today as it was then. Hope you enjoy.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/new-breed-of-hangers-on-appears-along-with-genuine-social-activist/1/323796.html

blueblood
06-08-2015, 05:35 PM
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/18-Soldiers-Killed-in-Manipur-Ambush-PM-Defence-Minister-Condemn-Attack/2015/06/04/article2849301.ece

IMPHAL/ GUWAHATI/ NEW DELHI: At least 18 soldiers were killed and 11 others injured on Thursday when militants ambushed their convoy in Manipur's Chandel district, officials said, terming it the worst such attack on the Indian Army in over a decade.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, among others, condemned the attack.

According to Indian Army sources, the team that was attacked belonged to 6 Dogra Regiment and was an administrative convoy moving out of its location.

The attack occurred between Paralong and Charong villages, around 8.30 a.m.

The militants used Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) and rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) and also opened heavy fire at the four-vehicle convoy.

-----------------------------------------------------------

For the last few years North East had been quite peaceful by Indian standards. This ambush will create a lot of ripples and it will be the common Manipuri who will suffer the most.

blueblood
06-08-2015, 05:41 PM
Manipur ambush: Why Army saw the worst attack in 20 years

India's Northeastern states, which have still not been fully integrated with the national mainstream but have been relatively peaceful for a few years, have suddenly witnessed renewed violence.

In the worst attack on the Army in more than two decades, 18 soldiers were killed and 11 injured in an ambush in Manipur on June 4, 2015. Militants belonging to SS Khaplang's Nationalist Socialist Council of Nagaland, or NSCN (K) and the Kanglei Yawol Kanna Lup (KYKL), a Meitei outfit formed in 1994, have claimed responsibility for the ambush. Apparently, they came from a camp in Myanmar.

Three days later, Naga militants attacked an Assam Rifles camp in Tirap district of Arunachal Pradesh, but were repulsed. Furthermore, 11 Army and Assam Rifles soldiers were killed in Arunachal Pradesh and Nagaland on April 2 and May 3, respectively. On March 21, a Gorkha Rifles convoy was ambushed in Tamenglong district of Manipur.

Just over a month ago, Paresh Baruah's United Liberation Front of Assam-Independent and NSCN (K) had joined hands with seven other militant organisations to form the United National Liberation Front of Western South-east Asia. The meeting, held in the Sagaing region of Myanmar, was reportedly facilitated by Chinese intelligence personnel.

davidbfpo
06-23-2015, 01:24 PM
There is also a large body of writing on Indian counterinsurgency, including Vivek Chadha’s Low Intensity Conflicts in India (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0761933255/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0761933255&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwaronthec-20&linkId=F2ANCRMQB4ZGJ4MS) (2005), Rajesh Rajagopalan’s Fighting Like a Guerrilla (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415456843/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0415456843&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwaronthec-20&linkId=66UKYQDNI6OJVYBO)(2008), the edited volumes Treading on Hallowed Ground (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005M4ZXCE/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B005M4ZXCE&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwaronthec-20&linkId=XHC6UPNARBXOYKWZ)(2008) and India and Counterinsurgency (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0028G99T2/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0028G99T2&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwaronthec-20&linkId=TBVEZ63YNNW43JOH)(2009), Sanjib Baruah’s Beyond Counterinsurgency (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195698762/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0195698762&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwaronthec-20&linkId=KB74RDVYJVKYPM7Z), and Scott Gates and Kaushik Roy’s Unconventional Warfare in South Asia (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/140943706X/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=140943706X&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwaronthec-20&linkId=7VCBJJSKMHD3YXDY)(both 2014). This is particularly important in light of the bloody ambush (http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/at-least-10-army-men-killed-in-ambush-by-manipuri-insurgents/) of 18 Indian soldiers in the northeast earlier this month, and the special forces raid (http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2015/06/11/Was-Indias-special-forces-raid-into-Myanmar-a-signal-to-China-and-Pakistan.aspx?COLLCC=3421839813&) into Myanmar that followed.

Taken from a WoTR column by Shashank Joshi.

davidbfpo
08-03-2015, 09:14 PM
Earlier I noted an Indian report that a ceasefire had finally been agreed with the Nagaland insurgents, talks started in 1997 and the insurgency started sixty years ago. Indian tweets say:
..most significantly positive development for India's security in decades...

From the BBC a very short report:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-33762445 and a Reuters report:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11780739/India-signs-peace-deal-with-Nagaland-separatists-after-60-years-of-war.html

Then I lost it, so meantime this came via Twitter.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLfNIOCUYAAwOvz.jpg

davidbfpo
08-04-2015, 10:12 AM
By coincidence I caught up with my reading pile today, amongst the pile is a small journal 'Durbar' by the Indian Military History Society and an article 'Fighting The Nagas, 1832-1880'. In summary the hill tribes resisted Imperial encroachment into their land, fighting ended in 1880 and during WW2 the Naga tribe was stauchly loyal (Kohima is nearby). Their website:http://imhs.org.uk/

One hill town, Khonoma, has a famous fort and it has a plaque showing its history and rebuilding last in 1990 (not clear why) and in 1956 when Indian rule was resisted (as below).

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XeSZ1exANkE/TuidT-xXp9I/AAAAAAAATTE/7FjP4zKOVIA/s512/DSC00419.JPG

The image is from one of the first tourist films of the area (at 1.47):http://sadanandsafar.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/khonoma-historical-nagaland-village.html

AdamG
01-04-2016, 06:31 PM
COIN - you're doing it wrong.


The uneventful drive back from a religious shrine on Friday evening didn’t take much time to turn into a nightmare for Madan Gopal, one of the three abducted by the terrorists who stormed the Pathankot air base on Saturday morning.

Mr. Gopal, the cook of former Gurdaspur Superintendent of Police Salvinder Singh, spoke to The Hindu at his residence on Sunday morning as fighting continued a few kilometres away between the security forces and terrorists, almost 35 hours after the terrorists stormed the forward base of the Indian Air Force.

Mr. Gopal, Mr. Singh and the latter's jeweller friend, Rajesh Verma, were abducted on Thursday late night. And on Friday early morning, at around 2 a.m., Mr. Gopal and Mr. Singh were freed.

Mr. Gopal alleged that not only was the vital information he shared with the police immediately after he was freed ignored but also he was brutally tortured by the Punjab Police.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/exclusive-police-tortured-key-pathankot-terror-witness/article8061330.ece?homepage=true


See also


Troops battled Monday to end a 24-hour gun and bomb siege near the Indian consulate in Afghanistan's Mazar-i-Sharif city, after a bloody weekend assault on an air base in India near the Pakistan border.
http://news.yahoo.com/indian-consulate-under-attack-afghan-city-official-172448742.html

davidbfpo
01-07-2016, 02:39 PM
A true Indian SME has a commentary, it opens with:
It is true that Pathankot could have been handled better if we had learnt lessons from the July 27, 2015, Gurdaspur attack. We can only heave a sigh of relief by comparing Pathankot with similar incidents in our neighbourhood.
Link:http://www.thequint.com/opinion/2016/01/06/beyond-pathankot-attack-well-trained-swat-teams-need-of-the-hour

blueblood
02-21-2016, 10:02 PM
A true Indian SME has a commentary, it opens with:
Link:http://www.thequint.com/opinion/2016/01/06/beyond-pathankot-attack-well-trained-swat-teams-need-of-the-hour

Very good article but the author missed a couple of points and is wrong about one.

1) Hysteria created by the media. Lack of multi partisan or "free" media ends up playing inappropriate role in times of such incidents. Same goes for the lack of government's media policy i.e. complete blackout despite the blunder of 26/11.

2) The hysteria propagated by the media with collaboration with "authoritative" figures like some ex Indian Army generals and other senior officers with some ludicrous theories.

3) Punjab police SWAT did an excellent job in the last such incident in 2015.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Gurdaspur_attack
So it was not the lack of a well trained SWAT but lack of jurisdiction in an air force station (centrally administered under MOD) that prevented the Punjab police from handling such situations.

4) Five of the seven causalities (fatalities) occurred when terrorists entered the mess hall and were confronted by the unarmed Defence Security Corps members i.e. retired army personnel over 45 years of age.

5) As for the MARCOS role in 26/11. A small team of MARCOS did enter the Taj but could not find the gunmen.


As pointed out by the author, similar incidents in and around the neighbourhood has resulted in a much larger damage to either men or material or both. Be it the Camp Bastion raid or the attack on PNS Mehran or Kamra air base. So all in all it was not a bad operation but it ended up looking like one.

davidbfpo
03-14-2016, 10:23 AM
A reminder that this book has two chapters on Indian policing and COIN: 'Policing Insurgencies: Cops as Counterinsurgents'. Edited by C. Christine Fair and Sumit Ganguly. Published by OUP (India) in 2013.

Contents: http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprofso/9780198094883.001.0001/acprof-9780198094883 (http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780198094883.001.0001/acprof-9780198094883)

davidbfpo
03-14-2016, 05:17 PM
A lengthy review of the book 'Policing Insurgencies: Cops as Counterinsurgents'. Edited by C. Christine Fair and Sumit Ganguly; is attached; it concerns all the chapters, not just those on India.

davidbfpo
06-15-2016, 09:44 PM
A long Carnegie report. From the introduction:
Poor and weak countries plagued by violence seem to face a chicken-and-egg problem: a lack of resources appears to constrain their ability to fight violence, while violence itself exacerbates poverty. Yet under Chief Minister Nitish Kumar, Bihar, one of India’s poorest states, was able to significantly reduce an insurgency that has plagued the region for over forty years. Bihar shows how particular political conditions cause states to be poor, weak, and violent—and how careful application of political tactics can reduce violence even in places with few resources and low state capacity.Link:http://carnegieendowment.org/2016/06/09/fighting-insurgency-with-politics-case-of-bihar/j1n0

davidbfpo
06-17-2016, 08:30 PM
After the Bihar post above a "lurker" points to an October 2009 article by an Indian SME on the Naxalite / Maoist adversary, as they are slow to change their strategy it is helpful:http://pragati.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/an-ideological-adversary/

SWJ Blog
07-08-2016, 03:02 PM
A Journal article: Red Salute: India’s Maoist Maelstrom and Evolving Counterinsurgency Doctrines (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/red-salute-india%E2%80%99s-maoist-maelstrom-and-evolving-counterinsurgency-doctrines)

The author is:
Sajid Farid Shapoo is a highly decorated Indian Police Service officer with 18 years of progressively senior experience in sensitive and high profile assignments across India. His areas of expertise include ideologies driving various Jihadi organizations, ideological contours of Jihadi groups established at the national and international level and the early Islamic Period and the Shia Sunni divide.

--------
Read the full post (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/red-salute-india%E2%80%99s-maoist-maelstrom-and-evolving-counterinsurgency-doctrines) and make any comments at the SWJ (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog).

davidbfpo
07-19-2016, 09:43 AM
The legal position of India's armed forces when engaged in internal security operations are governed by the AFSPA; not without controversy as this article explains:http://thewire.in/51089/way-applied-sometimes-wrong-indias-armed-forces-need-afspa/

Accountability before the civil courts is well illustrated by this passage, with an incredible period in military detention:
Another big difference is the production of an arrested person before a magistrate, which is the origin of most complaints. According to the CrPC, an arrested person to be produced within 24 hours of arrest. However, the AFSPA permits a longer delay if the situation warrants so. Section 5 of the Act (https://www.icrc.org/ihl-nat.nsf/0/23fb81e4ad23e2b3c1257682002cfdfd/%24FILE/The%20Armed%20Forces%20%28Special%20Powers%29%20Ac t.pdf)says the arrested person should be “made over to the officer-in charge of the nearest police station with the least possible delay”. Several cases have been quoted in which the army failed to produce the arrested persons for several days, sometimes even months, taking advantage of the “least possible delay” clause. In one instance, the person presented before the magistrate had been (in custody for) five years before. There is zero transparency in this procedure and it should be amended keeping in mind human rights angle.

AdamG
03-01-2017, 09:39 PM
This is the sort of situation that creates a petri dish for instability, possibly leading to one of those long-forecasted dystopian 'water wars'.



Dr TV Ramachandra, coordinator of the Energy and Wetlands Research Group at the Indian Institute of Science (IISc), has been studying the lakes in Bangalore, especially Bellandur and Varthur, for over two decades. He explains that an estimated 400-600 million litres of untreated sewage is let into the lake catchment every day, creating a toxic environment fertile for disasters like the fires and foam.
“The city overall generates between 1,400 and 1,600m litres per day of untreated sewage,” he says. “20-30m litres per day is generated from the apartments in the vicinity of Bellandur Lake. There are several invasive species like water hyacinths growing in the lake, thick enough to walk on. People dump solid waste on top of it. Because of the thickness, it creates an anaerobic environment in the water below, where methane is formed. It creates an ideal environment for catching fire.”

He believes there are too many agencies governing the lake, so they all blame each other for such incidents. “The Bangalore water supply and sewerage board should be held responsible for letting the untreated sewage into the water,” he says, adding that the onus should also be placed on the Karnataka state pollution control board for not regulating industries that have been draining their untreated sewage into the lake.
Although the Water (Prevention and Control of Pollution) Act and The Air (Prevention and Control of Pollution) Act require action to be taken over such matters, the government has mostly remained silent, while its departments have been passing the buck around. The National Green Tribunal has issued notices to all the agencies involved.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/mar/01/burning-lakes-experts-fear-bangalore-uninhabitable-2025

davidbfpo
03-29-2017, 05:17 PM
Reminded today that there is a separate thread in the Doctrine & TTP arena which dates back to 2008-2009 The Gill Doctrine (Indian CT) (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=6155)

davidbfpo
06-21-2017, 06:30 PM
Thanks to a "lurker" for the pointer to this new book and the precis cited in part states:
Security and intelligence specialist Vappala Balachandran analyses the shortcomings of India's security system in Keeping India Safe. He traces the origins of the problem, makes a case for reducing the burden on the police to make them more efficient, and offers solutions to fix the system.The author:
Vappala Balachandran is a former IPS officer and a security and intelligence specialist. He retired as Special Secretary, Cabinet Secretariat, Government of India, in 1995. He was also a member of the high-level committee which looked into the police performance in response to the terror attacks in Mumbai on 26 November 2008.Link:https://www.amazon.com/Keeping-India-Safe-Internal-Security/dp/9352644751

davidbfpo
07-03-2017, 08:27 AM
A lengthy BBC News report, headlined 'Counting the dead in Manipur's shoot-to-kill war' and opens with:
More than 1,500 people were allegedly killed in a wave of extra-judicial executions by security forces in India's insurgency-ridden north-eastern Manipur state between 1979 and 2012. Last year, in a landmark ruling, the Supreme Court asked relatives of the victims and activists to collect information on the killings. The court will rule in July whether to order an official investigation which could lead to convictions. Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-40271353

davidbfpo
07-30-2017, 03:50 PM
Via the author two reviews from India of his book (Post 196 refers).

From a former paramilitary police officer:
a valuable addition to the literature on the subject.Link: http://indianexpress.com/article/lifestyle/books/state-of-the-union-vappala-balachandran-keeping-india-safe-4772030/

One passage from the second:
The importance of ....Keeping India Safe.... is that it drives home the point that infirmities in our national security apparatus have long been in the making and it would take a long time to fix this leaking ship, and that partisanship or ultra-nationalistic rhetoric would not do the trick. The fault-lines that we choose to incur today will come to haunt us years later.

(Later) A useful book to have on the shelf.Link: http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/sunday-special/columns/fortunate-to-have-had-naresh-chandra/437249.html

davidbfpo
08-13-2017, 09:11 PM
Two reports, first an Indian newspaper with official statistics after this headline and sub-title:
More security personnel were killed in Maoist-hit areas than in Kashmir: Govt; The ministry said 2017 witnessed 504 incidents of Maoist violence, which is more than double the number of militant attacks in J-K where 194 such incidents were reported until July.Link:http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/more-security-personnel-were-killed-in-maoist-hit-areas-than-in-kashmir-govt/story-trjhfdeuACUDqMb0lz873K.html

Then a commentary by a SME @ CSIS via Lawfare, whose Editor's introduction is:
Insurgencies have plagued India throughout its modern history, and several remain active today. Until recently, it seemed that the Indian government was making progress, however fitfully, in reducing the scope and scale of the violence. Sarah Watson of CSIS argues that today Modi's government is dropping the ball. After significant gains, India's counterinsurgency campaigns are stalling, and the government appears unable to either conciliate or coerce effectively.Link:https://www.lawfareblog.com/indias-counterinsurgency-campaigns-are-missing-warning-signs

davidbfpo
11-21-2017, 12:20 PM
Within this large document is a "gem", an article by Lt General (Dr.) VK Ahluwalia, former Commander in Chief, Indian Army’s Central Command; it tackles insurgency and terrorism.
Link:http://visionofhumanity.org/app/uploads/2017/11/Global-Terrorism-Index-2017.pdf

davidbfpo
11-27-2017, 09:26 AM
Indian policing commentary, not with an insurgency focus, by an Indian SME and here is a telling phrase:








No wonder our police force has become a pressure cooker about to burst.
Link:https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/whats-to-be-done-with-our-cops/299556

davidbfpo
12-01-2017, 11:06 AM
Indian commentary, not with an insurgency focus, on the problems faced by CT agencies, by an Indian SME. This phrase would apply elsewhere:
The most worrying aspect of global terrorism is that individuals who are already on the CT machinery radar are seen committing carnage....is our counter-terrorist architecture flexible enough to match or surpass the exponential thinking of terrorists?Link:http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/26-11-attack-anniversary-2008-mumbai-attacks-overtaken-by-terror-4960932/

davidbfpo
12-05-2017, 01:05 PM
Thanks to a "lurker" a pointer to book recommended by a SME:
..there are very good books: On Naxalism: The best book I would recommend is Prakash Singh’s (He was Director General of Police, BSF) “The Naxalite Movement in India”. He is my batch mate in the I.P.S. That will give you the background. Several others had also written including me on this subject. If you read Economic & Political Weekly you will find good articles from the citizens’ perspective. The best book on Punjab insurgency is Mr. Julio Ribeiro’s “Bullet for Bullet”. Mr.Ribeiro was the fist DGP, Punjab to tackle Punjab insurgency, followed by Mr.K.P.S.Gill who has also written a book. One of the best commentators on North East is Mr. Sanjoy Hazarika, a former New York Times correspondent. He has written a book “Writing on the Wall”. His pieces appear in the Hindu.Link:https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/2bxpyo/i_am_v_balachandran_a_former_special_secretary/

MoorthyM
12-07-2017, 10:15 PM
As I explain here: https://politicalviolenceataglance.org/2017/11/29/societal-factors-behind-the-explosive-growth-of-salafi-jihadist-groups/, countering clerical influence will form the basis for defeating the global Islamist threat.

davidbfpo
10-08-2018, 08:05 AM
A short report based on their book, Alpa Shah, who teaches anthropology at the London School of Economics, is the author, most recently, of Nightmarch: Among India's Revolutionary Guerrillas; it opens with:
Tens of thousands of people have died in the conflict between Maoist guerrillas and the Indian state. Alpa Shah lived among the tribal villagers in their guerrilla strongholds for a year and a half to understand why they shunned democracy to take up arms.

(Closes with) But the Naxalite movement has survived against all odds, resurfacing each time the state assumed it had been snuffed out.

The BBC's photo is worrying and made me wonder if the foremost guerilla was serious.5580

JonyBairstow
05-24-2019, 05:58 PM
This Was Bound To Happen. Similar Incidents Happening And No One Put An Eye On Them. Source Link (https://biggbosstvshow.com/bigg-boss-tamil-vote/)