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mwe12
01-25-2016, 07:37 PM
Moderator's Note

(From Post 18 29th January) I have created this new thread to enable the exchange between Outlaw09 and mwe12 to continue - separate from the main Syria thread.

Both are Americans, one inside the Beltway and the other in Berlin. That does not exclude others from the exchange, as Crowbat too has added a post.(Ends)



Biden calls PKK a terrorist group. Meanwhile, U.S. arms YPG, which is just PKK on the other side of the border The Kurds hire great lobbyists in DC. They have done a much better job to hide the stink from Western readers, than say the Muslim Brotherhood has.


Not exactly sure how much longer the KSA, Turkey and Pakistan will remain quiet over the unending videos coming out ot the ME depiciting Shia militia torturing, killing and otherwsie committing war crimes on the Sunni populations in both Iraq and Syria....... The Saudis fund people to lop off heads and put civilians in cages, they like to cluster bomb weddings, and couldn't beat a drum. Pakistan, which has never won a war, isn't much better and can't afford to get bogged down away from the LOC, and Turkey has a PKK problem.


Last time I checked JaN has never uttered a single threat against the US nor carried out any attack agains the West besides in some aspects Russia is a far greater existential threat to the US than JaN will ever be....... JAN, a terrorist group, is AQ's local franchise; if someone from the US tried to join it they would end up in a federal prison. Franchise of the same outfit which murdered three thousand Americans one morning. Hell if an American tried to join much of the anti-Assad coalition they would get snatched off an airplane and put into the pavement so quick their head would spin. It's an insult to the victims of 9/11 that we aren't drone striking them on a daily basis.


There is the old IR concept that if one country knows exactly what is ongoing in another ie the ongoing genocide in Syria and says and or does nothing then they are as complicit as those that carry out the genocide.Imaginary concept, which would blame Costa Rica and Cambodia for not sending troops. And this isn't a genocide.


Somehow US foreign policy has forgotten Nuremburg........But hey that is ancient history to the current Obama NSC..... This isn't the Holocaust.


Interesting response today by the anti Assad front HNC....notice the emphasis is on fulfil what you signed off on at the UN in order for us the NHC to judge your full faith in negotiations....notice it is being sold in the West as "obstacles" and "preconditions" and the HNC says..."no we just want you to implement what you have passed in the UNSC so we do not have to re-negotiate for the same things from Assad and Putin" which is what you are basically telling us to do.... Those are preconditions in the real world.


Obama desperately trying to impose a facade resolution to Syrian conflict before his term ends for another chapter to write in his biography A chapter few of his supporters will care about anyways. There is no public support to go ride to the rescue of Islamist groups in Syria/the handful of secular pro-democracy people. Come to the US and ask around, or lobby your home country to ride in to the rescue.
===
From the analyst who was clearly deluded....

This is not to say that we should not compromise in order to put an end to conflict and human suffering (especially in Syria), but we must structure our compromises so that they contain the path to, or at least, the possibility for future exercise of democratic political and territorial sovereignty.Democracies like Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Qatar... errr.... Egypt...


Specifically, he seeks to inaugurate a new international order that permits human rights abuses by despotic leaders and invasion, occupation and political subversion of sovereign stateWait, what? Is this where someone rattles of a list of Western nations doing the same when it suited them.

Must be nice to be in a fantasy world; though if that is his best shot it is a shame he cashed a tax payer funded cheque for so long.

=================================

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/syria-peace-talks-postponed-january-160125131356951.html
He said all parties would be involved in ceasefire efforts, other than the two groups designated as "terrorists" by the UN.

"The condition is that it should be a real ceasefire and not just local," De Mistura said.

"Suspension of fighting regarding ISIL and al-Nusra is not on the table. However [there are] plenty of other suspensions of fighting that can take place."

Khaled Khoja, the President of the Syrian National Coalition, said in a press release that they are ready for the talks despite the delay.

......
Mohamed Alloush, the leader of the Jaysh al-Islam group, which has been chosen as part of the opposition list, told Al Jazeera there were conditions yet to be applied before any talks could take place.

"There is pressure on us to give up the natural and legitimate rights of the Syrian people. These pressures are represented in pushing our delegation to head to the talks without any clear agenda, plus giving up the goodwill measures mainly addressing the humanitarian situation which has nothing to do with politics.

"Therefore, we cannot tell our people who delegated us how we gave up their rights and headed to Geneva without stopping the air raids, lifting the siege, releasing the prisoners, or sending aid."
http://syriadirect.org/news/ahrar-nusra-spat-draws-condemnation-as-regime-advances-in-latakia/

A local dispute between two Victory Army factions Sunday that led to a gun battle is drawing condemnation from both leaderships and citizen journalists for distracting from fighting a rapid regime advance in Latakia province.

Neither Ahrar a-Sham nor Jabhat a-Nusra have commented on the underlying reasons behind Sunday's firefight in the town of Salqin, in northern Idlib province, when Nusra fighters captured an Ahrar “services office.”

The fighting caused one unidentified casualty, reported pro-opposition All4Syria on Sunday.

The groups reportedly reconciled after the incident, with Ahrar spokesman Abu Yazid Teftenaz circulating a copy of the settlement on Twitter. Teftenaz thanked the intervention of unnamed “rational people” for resolving the dispute.

The two factions are the strongest in the Victory Army, formed in early 2015 from a coalition of Islamist rebel groups who managed to capture all of Idlib province that year.

Meanwhile, the Syrian army and its allies are making rapid progress in the northern Latakia countryside, where they captured the village of Rabia Sunday. Rabia is the last rebel stronghold of importance in the province. Its capture will help prevent the southward movement of opposition fighters who periodically fire missiles on Latakia city and other regime-held areas along the coast, reported pan-Arab al-Hayat Monday.

“Their [Jabhat a-Nusra's] banners are in the trash in Selma and Rabia, and they're busy trying to expand their patch of emirate in Idlib,” wrote Mujahid a-Shami, alias of a citizen journalist who focuses on opposition Islamist brigades.

CrowBat
01-26-2016, 12:26 AM
BTW, mwe12, I find it outright ironic you're complaining about all the 'Islamist groups in Syria', and in next sentence cite al-Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/syria-peace-talks-postponed-january-160125131356951.html), which in turn is citing the leader of the Islamic Front - an Islamist group in control of the first place in Syria (insurgent-held Eastern Ghouta) where free elections (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEIK1wpOUfM) were held in nearly 70 years...

(BTW, the IF lost badly during these elections, and a group of civilian technocrats is now in power in the Eastern Ghouta, but then... sigh...well, why should anybody care about this: 'they're all Islamists and terrorists'...)

mwe12
01-26-2016, 01:43 AM
BTW, mwe12, I find it outright ironic you're complaining about all the 'Islamist groups in Syria', and in next sentence cite al-Jazeera, which in turn is citing the leader of the Islamic Front - an Islamist group in control of the first place in Syria (insurgent-held Eastern Ghouta) where free elections were held in nearly 70 years...

Citing Qatar state TV, to get info out of the horses mouth, is no more an endorsement of that vile terrorist supporting regime, than citing Sputnik or RT is of harboring a man-crush towards bare-chested Russian manlets. Single handledly doubled their clicks based on the fall of AJA.

If an American tried to join the IF they would also end up a federal prisoner.


...yup, and that's so precisely because people are so '100% sure' about that illusion that all these are 'Islamist groups' and there is 'only a handful of secular pro-democracy people'...

Well my friend that is the reality of it. There is minimal public support (and no public campaign) to help these guys, despite years of an aggressive media campaign and the MSM carrying water for them, including the use of the term "moderate." Really a remarkable story as to between horrible beliefs, massacres, beheadings, civilians in cages, suicide bombers, and AQ, these guys (and their GCC/Turkish supporters) basically discredited themselves.

They would have been good to have learned from the PKK as to how to hide the smell and at least pretend.


on Jan 25, 2016 4:14pm EST
Related: World
Attack targeting Ahrar al-Sham group in Syria kills 23, monitor says
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-group-idUSKCN0V31FV

A suicide bomber driving a fuel truck killed at least 23 people on Monday when he blew himself up at a checkpoint run by the Islamist group Ahrar al-Sham in Syria's northern city of Aleppo, a monitoring group said.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said that four of the group's commanders, other members of the group and four civilians are believed to be among those killed.

It said that the attack in the city's Sukari neighbourhood destroyed three nearby buildings and wounded dozens of people. More were believed to be buried under rubble. Ahrar al-Sham officials were not immediately available for comment.

In addition, a Russian air strike killed 12 people, including a local commander of the group, in the northwestern province of Idlib, the monitoring group said. It was not immediately clear where the warplane struck. The Observatory said it targeted the commander's house, but rebel sources said it struck an office of the group.

(Reporting by Mariam Karouny; Editing by Larry King)

OUTLAW 09
01-26-2016, 08:28 AM
Citing Qatar state TV, to get info out of the horses mouth, is no more an endorsement of that vile terrorist supporting regime, than citing Sputnik or RT is of harboring a man-crush towards bare-chested Russian manlets. Single handledly doubled their clicks based on the fall of AJA.

If an American tried to join the IF they would also end up a federal prisoner.



Well my friend that is the reality of it. There is minimal public support (and no public campaign) to help these guys, despite years of an aggressive media campaign and the MSM carrying water for them, including the use of the term "moderate." Really a remarkable story as to between horrible beliefs, massacres, beheadings, civilians in cages, suicide bombers, and AQ, these guys (and their GCC/Turkish supporters) basically discredited themselves.

They would have been good to have learned from the PKK as to how to hide the smell and at least pretend.

mwe12.....I had posted the comment that JaN has never attacked the US anywhere globally and while they often do crazy internal Syrian things politically and fighting wise that sometimes causes one to shake their heads they are basically Syrian to their roots and take their fighters mainly from inside Syria.....AND yes they have even had internal and open debates about their oath of allegiance to AQ...which is unusual for a so called "terrorist" grouping in the realm of AQ. So again show me any article, or statement coming from JaN issued as a direct threat to the US such as does AQ and or IS???

Again another contradiction to the so called image of an AQ terrorist grouping.

JN convoy with more than 120 armed vehicles just arrived north #Aleppo cs to fight #SAA #isis & #pkk
#Syria JAN 26

Think about this...what if the anti Assad forces had been able to turn their full attention to IS...instead they are fighting the Assad Shia mercenary army and dodging Russian air strikes....AND fighting at the same time ongoing battles with IS and pushes them often back in heavy fighting ALL the while the RuAF striking is them in these fights...basically the RuAF has been protecting IS with their air strikes against the anti Assad forces...YET we hear nothing about that in the entire US MSM do we?????

Not less than 900 #SAA & it's militias mercenaries exterminated & 1600 wounded in the last 3 months by Rebels at #Latakia battles #Syria

HERE is the interesting point that I have been making for awhile...ALL we hear out of the US is" the Syrians must fight IS", or we "need more boots on the ground to fight IS", OR "we need SOF units from the Sunni Front States on the ground to fight IS"...on and on.

BUT has the US even thought about responding to what the anti Assad forces ie FSA has been saying for years now...."help us take care of first Assad and THEN we will take on IS ourselves"..."help arm us and support us ...we will do the fighting ourselves"......sounds like a offer/plan to me.....

IS that not in the interests of the US and the entire world right now when it comes to IS???

IMHO it is.......

BUT what does the US do to appease unilaterally Putin...it restricts the TOW from the anti Assad fighters the only real equalizer right now in the face of massive combined Assad and Putin air strikes when MANPADs are not being delivered....WHY the restriction of the weapons flows??...Obama wants to pressure the anti Assad force into compromising with a genocidal dictator, basically surrendering after the massive killing of Syrians would you as an anti Assad force now surrender.....?

After the massive genocide would you support that move??

OUTLAW 09
01-26-2016, 09:43 AM
mwe12.....I had posted the comment that JaN has never attacked the US anywhere globally and while they often do crazy internal Syrian things politically and fighting wise that sometimes causes one to shake their heads they are basically Syrian to their roots and take their fighters mainly from inside Syria.....AND yes they have even had internal and open debates about their oath of allegiance to AQ...which is unusual for a so called "terrorist" grouping in the realm of AQ. So again show me any article, or statement coming from JaN issued as a direct threat to the US such as does AQ and or IS???

Again another contradiction to the so called image of an AQ terrorist grouping.

JN convoy with more than 120 armed vehicles just arrived north #Aleppo cs to fight #SAA #isis & #pkk
#Syria JAN 26

Think about this...what if the anti Assad forces had been able to turn their full attention to IS...instead they are fighting the Assad Shia mercenary army and dodging Russian air strikes....AND fighting at the same time ongoing battles with IS and pushes them often back in heavy fighting ALL the while the RuAF striking is them in these fights...basically the RuAF has been protecting IS with their air strikes against the anti Assad forces...YET we hear nothing about that in the entire US MSM do we?????

Not less than 900 #SAA & it's militias mercenaries exterminated & 1600 wounded in the last 3 months by Rebels at #Latakia battles #Syria

HERE is the interesting point that I have been making for awhile...ALL we hear out of the US is" the Syrians must fight IS", or we "need more boots on the ground to fight IS", OR "we need SOF units from the Sunni Front States on the ground to fight IS"...on and on.

BUT has the US even thought about responding to what the anti Assad forces ie FSA has been saying for years now...."help us take care of first Assad and THEN we will take on IS ourselves"..."help arm us and support us ...we will do the fighting ourselves"......sounds like a offer/plan to me.....

IS that not in the interests of the US and the entire world right now when it comes to IS???

IMHO it is.......

BUT what does the US do to appease unilaterally Putin...it restricts the TOW from the anti Assad fighters the only real equalizer right now in the face of massive combined Assad and Putin air strikes when MANPADs are not being delivered....WHY the restriction of the weapons flows??...Obama wants to pressure the anti Assad force into compromising with a genocidal dictator, basically surrendering after the massive killing of Syrians would you as an anti Assad force now surrender.....?

After the massive genocide would you support that move??

mwe12...think about this.......?

During the past hours #Russia bombed Marea and Tall Jabin, two cities where opposition forces are fighting #ISIS. #Syria

BTW...mwe12...perfect example of the RuAF air striking opposition forces fighting with IS..THUS they are in fact protecting IS...DO you hear anything about this in the US MSM and or from Obama and or Kerry...NO.....

mwe12
01-26-2016, 06:01 PM
now if we accept the commenter is from the US then the following comment is directed to the commenter....it is far easier to do a cut and paste critique BUT really hard to formulate a direct answer using knowledge of the area involved.

I take the silver line to work - luckily it is closed today. Thanks Obama.

Of the two of us I think I am the American.


mwe12.....I had posted the comment that JaN has never attacked the US anywhere globally and while they often do crazy internal Syrian things politically and fighting wise that sometimes causes one to shake their heads they are basically Syrian to their roots and take their fighters mainly from inside Syria.....AND yes they have even had internal and open debates about their oath of allegiance to AQ...which is unusual for a so called "terrorist" grouping in the realm of AQ. So again show me any article, or statement coming from JaN issued as a direct threat to the US such as does AQ and or IS???

Basically the above shows you are a mark for terrorists. JAN is AQ. A decade after 9/11 and those clowns were like "yeah this is a movement we want in on." It is a shame and an insult to the victims of 9/11 that we are not hitting JAN and anyone who teams up with them with daily drone strikes - much less vaporize those pow-wows.


The mass killing of civilians is an affront to our common humanity and a threat to our common security. It destabilizes countries and regions … [and] creates grievances that extremists exploit. We have a strong interest in leading an international response to genocide and mass atrocities when they arise. … [It is] less costly when we act preventively before situations reach crisis proportions.

Thankfully empty words. We have sat out of plenty. Thankfully we have kept out at least to the degree we have on this one. Though we should be paying it forward for 9/11 and going after the mass-killers and their allies who were in on 9/11.


Obama administration does not want you to know them as that would require the use of force and Obama is all about the non use of force as he does not want to go down in history as using force.

Takes a surprising amount of personal courage not to deploy US military power to put a new Taliban into power.


BUT has the US even thought about responding to what the anti Assad forces ie FSA has been saying for years now...."help us take care of first Assad and THEN we will take on IS ourselves"..."help arm us and support us ...we will do the fighting ourselves"......sounds like a offer/plan to me.....

BS - Seeing as the FSA fights alongside JAN/IF, who are also terrorists.


0 after the "liberation" by #Putin and #Assad in 2016.

It's a war - civilian populations flee.


You're 9/11 is our 24/7

9/11 as done by the class of people we are "expected" to put into power.


Obama's answer...hey we have this really great successful Syrian strategy that is working ..."all we need is more messaging".....come on....

He has kept us out of getting bogged down there, we are not fighting to put Islamists into power - pretty good job.


Let's get back to the US...do we not preach to the entire world that the benefits of rule of law, good governance and transparency is what drives a developing civil society...yes we do so when a civil society stands up and states "we have had enough of 50 years of dictatorship" and simply now want the rule of law and good governance..... should we simply stand by when via genocide they are being wiped out because of these demands??

There is no genocide - first off.
Secondly we gladly support brutal repression in that part of the world.


BTW...this was written in an article from October 2015 and here we are five months later and the Obama administration has basically caved on anything they have demanded concerning Assad for the last four years....it is telling when one looks at the actions taken by Obama and his NSC.......we simply do not know what to do.

Please do a better job citing things.


BTW...mwe12...perfect example of the RuAF air striking opposition forces fighting with IS..THUS they are in fact protecting IS...DO you hear anything about this in the US MSM and or from Obama and or Kerry...NO

They do bomb ISIS, quite regularly, they are free to hit both groups of terrorists in whatever order they think is best at the moment.


IS that not in the interests of the US and the entire world right now when it comes to IS???

Russia is free to smash both in whatever order they choose.


IS that not in the interests of the US and the entire world right now when it comes to IS???

Or we can sit back and watch Russia/Iran/Hezbollah/Syria do the dirty work for us, basically for free. Let the bad take care of the ugly.


BUT what does the US do to appease unilaterally Putin...it restricts the TOW from the anti Assad fighters the only real equalizer right now in the face of massive combined Assad and Putin air strikes when MANPADs are not being delivered....WHY the restriction of the weapons flows??...

Great news that we stopped giving TOWs to these clowns. Putin changed the nature of the conflict by showing up and thankfully we have cut back our TOW-FSGs for JAN/IF.


ssive combined Assad and Putin air strikes when MANPADs are not being delivered...

Thank God we have prevented that insanity.


After the massive genocide would you support that move??

There is no genocide large or small.


Obama wants to pressure the anti Assad force into compromising with a genocidal dictator, basically surrendering after the massive killing of Syrians would you as an anti Assad force now surrender.....?

But he is not genocidal.


BTW...if I were you I would spend far more time fully understanding the Iranian UW support of Shia militias and militant groupings who have a definite ax to grind with the US in the ME....

Nowhere near the threat of AQ and all of the toads fighting alongside AQ in this conflict.
==============

If an American tried to join the IF - he (or she) wouldn't be accepted, because the IF does not accept any foreigners (and that since at least two years).

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2016/01/us-citizen-pleads-guilty-to-supporting-al-qaeda-allied-group-in-syria.php

Baroudi and his co-conspirators exported American “tactical equipment to Syria for the purpose of supplying and arming Ahrar al Sham and other insurgent groups in Syria whose stated goal is to overthrow the Assad government and install an Islamic state,” according to the DOJ.


Yeah, 'they discredited themselves' - by MSM reporting nonsense about them... somehow, your own statements are contradicting themselves

Water was carried and AJ stories and SOHR BS repeated without much thought - and even today they are calling people "moderate" rather "moderate islamists." The anti-Assad forces own horrible beliefs and actions have made them so unpopular to support in America.

As I said these clowns could learn from the amazing job the PKK, a terrorist group, has done in turning it's local franchise into the defender of women, secular ideals, minorities, and apple pie - all while expanding its control.

===========
http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/01/26/russia-urges-including-kurds-syria-talks/79347564/


Lavrov emphasized that the Kurdish group, the Democratic Union Party, or PYD, plays an important role in fighting the Islamic State group and is an essential part of political settlement in Syria.

Turkey sees the PYD and its YPG militia group as branches of the Kurdistan Workers' Party, a Kurdish resistance group it has long fought and considers a terrorist group.

Lavrov warned that it would be a "grave mistake" not to invite the PYD. "How can you talk about political reforms in Syria if you ignore a leading Kurdish party?" he said, adding that the Kurds account for 15 percent of the population.

Lavrov also warned against Saudi Arabia's proposal to invite only opposition groups that it hosted at a meeting last month, saying the Syrian peace process should also include other opposition representatives, like those that met for talks in Moscow last year.

The current opposition negotiating team announced in Saudi Arabia last week includes Saudi-backed Islamic rebel factions like Jaish al-Islam, or the Army of Islam, which Russia considers terrorists.

....
n Ankara, Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu on Tuesday reiterated Turkey's opposition to including Syrian Kurdish forces at the Geneva talks.

"A table without the Kurds would be incomplete. We do not oppose the Kurds but we oppose the PYD and YPG who oppress the Kurds," Davutoglu said in his weekly address to his party's legislators. "It is not acceptable for us for a terror organization to be included within the opposition."

Foreign minister Mevlut Cavusoglu, in an interview with NTV television, said Turkey would boycott the talks if the PYD were invited.

Lavrov has dismissed the demand by some opposition groups that the Syrian military must lift the siege of some areas before the talks begin, saying that unblocking the besieged areas and delivering humanitarian aid should be an important part of the negotiations.

"There must be no preconditions for starting the talks, and the humanitarian issues must be among the central issues on their agenda," he said, adding that while the plight of the city of Madaya blockaded by Syrian government forces has been widely publicized, a similar situation in government-controlled Deir el-Zour has been largely out of the public eye.

mwe12
01-26-2016, 06:06 PM
===


https://www.rt.com/news/330085-syria-russia-deir-ez-zor/
..........
Supported by Russian war planes, Syrian government troops have been successful in defeating Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL) militants in Latakia province. In the past 24 hours, more than 92 square kilometers (35 square miles) of territories were regained from terrorist groups. The Syrian Army has regained control over 28 towns, including the strategically important town of Rabia in Latakia.

Having lost their advantage in western parts of the country, IS command has now decided to concentrate its forces on trying to seize the city of Deir ez-Zor, the largest city in the eastern part of Syria, the Russian Defense Ministry said. Up to 2,000 heavily armed militants have been redeployed by IS to the region, the ministry added, citing data received from Syrian opposition and the information center in Baghdad.
.............
Nearly 500 terrorist targets in Syria have been hit by Russian airstrikes in Syria over the course of three days, starting from Friday, the Defense Ministry reported.

Russian military aviation conducted 169 sorties between January 22-24, supporting the ground offensive of the Syrian Army and patriotic opposition forces from the air, Lieutenant General Sergey Rudskoy, chief of the main operations department of the Russian General Staff announced on Monday.

From 70 to 100 sorties to target terrorists in the country are carried out on a daily basis, the ministry added.



Terrorist command center destroyed by Syrian army backed by Russian air group World January 26, 21:35 UTC+3 The operation was of major importance since the city of Sheikh Maskin was surrounded by a number of commanding hills that could be used to control roads used by terrorists to supply material © Alexander Elistratov/TASS Archive Read also Lavrov: Russian air group's operation turned the tide in Syria LATAKIA, January 26. /TASS/. Syria’s government army backed by militias and Russia’s air group has destroyed a command center and control posts of terrorist organizations in the country’s southwestern provinces, Brigadier General Ali Maihoub, the official spokesman for the Syrian Armed Forces told reporters on Tuesday. "On Tuesday morning, Syrian army units in collaboration with militia groups and support from the Russian air group and the Syrian Air Forces took control over Sheikh Maskin and northern suburbs of Daraa. The area of the deployment of the 82 brigade and the Alish height were taken under control as a result of successful tactical actions," he said, adding that a command center and control posts of terrorist organizations had been destroyed and serious damage had been done to their weapons and manpower. He said the operation was of major importance since the city of Sheikh Maskin was surrounded by a number of commanding hills that could be used to control roads used by terrorists to supply material and to ensure security of areas adjacent to the international highway linking Damascus and Daraa. Russia’s aerospace forces launched pinpoint strikes against the Islamic State and Jabhat al-Nusra targets in Syria on September 30 after the Federation Council upper parliament house unanimously approved President Vladimir Putin’s request for the use of the armed forces against terrorists in Syria. The Russian air group in Syria comprises more than 50 warplanes and helicopters, including Su-34 and Su-24M bombers, Su-25 attack aircraft, Su-30SM fighters and Mi-8 and Mi-24 helicopters. Air strikes are delivered at military hardware, communications centers, transport vehicles, munitions depots and other terrorist infrastructure facilities. The military operation is conducted at the request of Syrian President Bashar Assad. Russia has repeatedly said it does not plan to take part in any ground operations in Syria.

More:
http://tass.ru/en/world/852412

mwe12
01-26-2016, 11:08 PM
What would you suggest them to do - especially since your president (and not only him, of course: all the Western governments) is so hapily ignoring the fact that the JAN is supported by such 'most important non-NATO allies' like Qatar and Turkey (the same ones, BTW, that already turned Libya into a mess)?

I'm suggesting we let Russia/Assad/Hezbollah/Iran/PKK flatten JAN/IF/FSA/ISIS - and bleed themselves and the backers of those groups out in the process. And we (America) should drone strike ISIS/IF/JAN in the process.


...and exactly how do you want to know there are 'new Taliban' in Syria...?


When asked about Ahrar al-Sham’s relationship with al-Qaeda in Syria, Aboud made clear that their disagreement was not fundamental: “They, like other Islamic groups, my brother, we meet with them in points and disagree on other points and militarily meet in matters of tactics and disagree with them on other tactics… We may agree with them that Islam is the adjudicator of our work and we may disagree on some points.”

When asked how the post-Assad regime would be selected, Aboud endorsed anything other than democracy: “The method of selecting a ruler varies in the Islamic state. There are those like today’s monarchies, for example, where the king appoints his successor, and also there are those where leaders are selected by senior nobles and wise men, and there are those consulted by citizens. All these methods are legitimate and nothing is wrong with them.”

But he described “democracy” as a “sword hanging on everyone that Western powers want… Democracy is to control people via people according to what they think of rules. We say that we have a Divine system prescribed for his Caliph and slaves… It is the system where the rule is for the pure Islamic law. Allah’s law is complete, and you need only consider the texts and derive rules.”
- See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/ahrar-al-sham-s-apocalyptic-vision-syria-and-beyond-455405201#sthash.bqSYXtta.dpuf



How often?

http://www.syriahr.com/en/?p=41672

The dead are : 792 civilians ( 180 children, and 116 women ), 496 men and young men, 655 IS, and 924 rebels and Jabhat al-Nusra including non-Syrian militants.

End of last year from a pro-terrorist/insurgent source. That seems pretty busy to me. Two terrorists for every "civilian" (which don't seem to have all that many women among them).


If so: mind explaining what 'Islamic State' (aka IS formerly ISIS/ISIL) was ever there in Latakia?

Flattening JAN/FSA/IF is perfectly fine. Would have been pretty dumb to ignore them.


Nope. He's not genocidal - if you prefer to ignore the number of his victims.

He is not genocidal even with those numbers.


Instead, he's such a lovely character that I would recommend people like you to try living under his rule - for a week or so, at least.

Wouldn't want to live under the IF/JAN either.


So, Iranian nukes are not important any more; and that lovely clique in Tehran - that, just BTW, is teaching the entire neighbourhood how to oppress and terrorise own population first and foremost - are now best friends, right?

Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia... Axis of Saints there.

=========
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/25/politics/al-qaeda-al-nusra-isis-threat-experts/index.html


Al-Nusra is "much more dangerous to the U.S. than the ISIS model in the long run," according to the authors of a report labeling both groups "existential" threats. The report was released last week by the Institute for the Study of War and American Enterprise Institute.

The report criticizes the administration's ISIS-centric strategy, saying, "Any strategy that leaves Jabhat al-Nusra in place will fail to secure the American homeland."
.............
In fact, Kagan warned that al Qaeda's Syrian branch represented a longer-term and more intractable threat than ISIS and that targeting al-Nusra would be more difficult than targeting the other group, both of which take advantage of the chaos of the Syrian civil war to expand their reach.

"Al-Nusra is quietly intertwining itself with the Syrian population and Syrian opposition. ... They are waiting in the wings to pick up the mantle of global jihad once ISIS falls," she said.

RELATED: What is al Nusra Front?

Peace talks between the regime of Bashar al-Assad in Syria and select rebel groups are tentatively scheduled to begin this month in Geneva, Switzerland, with the United States hoping that a resolution to the conflict will curtail the power of ISIS and other terror groups.

Al-Nusra, like ISIS, won't be participating in the talks, but the report argues that al-Nusra is "a spoiler that will almost certainly cause the current strategy in Syria to fail."

The State Department has said that over 35,000 foreign fighters from 100 countries have traveled to Syria to participate in the conflict and that the al-Nusra Front attracts the second-most foreign fighters, ranking only behind ISIS, according to Nick Heras of the Center for a New American Security.

Al-Nusra emerged in late 2011 during the early days of the Syrian civil war and was initially largely made up of battle-hardened Syrians who had traveled to Iraq to fight U.S. troops during the American engagement there.

It has emerged as one of the most effective groups fighting the Syrian regime and currently controls swaths of northwestern Syria. The group holds "coercive power" over several opposition groups, serving as a sort of "kingmaker," Heras said.

Al-Nusra does "not have the same capacity as ISIS, but its greatest usefulness is as a base of operations" to other elements of al Qaeda that may seek to strike Western targets," Heras said.
....
Kagan said she believes al-Nusra has made a tactical decision not to attack the West for the time being.

"Right now, al-Nusra has decided not to overtly host attack cells because the al Qaeda leadership's priority is preserving success in Syria and avoiding being targeted by the U.S.," she said.

But she explained that the report still treated it as a larger threat than ISIS because, "We define a threat as having the capability and the intent. ... The capability is already there, and in time the intent will be as well."



http://syriadirect.org/news/rebel-infighting-instrumental-in-loss-of-sheikh-miskeen/
..
Last Monday, Syria Direct reported on the rise of intra-rebel tensions between Harakat al-Muthanna al-Islamiya, of salafi-jihadi leanings, and two FSA affiliates over accusations that the former had engaged in a series of “kidnappings, assassinations and intimidation,” culminating in the abduction of the head of the Daraa Provincial Council.

The fear, said a local activist at the time, is that recent accusations “will affect the ongoing Sheikh Miskeen battles,” seeing as Harakat al-Muthanna has a strong military presence on the Sheikh Miskeen front.

That fear appears to have materialized. Harakat al-Muthanna blocked the passage of an FSA-affiliated Jaish al-Yarmouk convoy headed for Sheikh Miskeen on January 17, according to an announcement circulated by Jaish al-Yarmouk on Facebook.

Aside from that convoy incident, little more is known about the circumstances of the infighting repeatedly referenced by opposition media and citizen journalists.

In a video released Monday by the pro-opposition Nabaa Media Foundation, one Daraa resident condemned the feuding brigades for “chasing each other down” all the way to “the Jordanian fence,” indicating that clashes had reached the border.

Civilians and rebel soldiers who appeared in the Nabaa Media Foundation video were united in their demand for rebel brigades to put up a united front against the regime advance.

....

mwe12
01-27-2016, 05:49 AM
In what fashion is FSyA a 'terrorist organization'? In what fashion is IF a 'terrorist organization' - especially for you, an American (if you are really one)? What kind of terrorist operations against the USA have they undertaken?

They are aligned with AQ, share the same beliefs, same goal (just right now on a national scale), also massacre civilians, and use civilians as human shields. That they haven't got around to giving us our next 9/11 is irrelevant.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2015/08/syrian-jihadists-honor-mullah-omar-praise-talibans-radical-state.php

Indeed, a representative of Ahrar al Sham, Labib Al Nahhas, published two op-eds in Western newspapers in recent weeks. The first appeared in the Washington Post on July 10, while the second was published in the Daily Telegraph (UK) on July 21. Both pieces contain obvious fictions. And both were intended to mislead a Western audience into thinking that Ahrar al Sham is something other than an extremist or jihadist group.

Nahhas wrote in the Post, for instance, that his organization has “been falsely accused of having organizational links to al Qaeda and of espousing al Qaeda’s ideology.” This claim does not pass the most basic smell test. Ahrar al Sham fights alongside the Al Nusrah Front, al Qaeda’s official branch in Syria, on a day-to-day basis. Al Nusrah and Ahrar al Sham have formed coalitions throughout the country to battle their common enemies, especially the Assad regime and the Islamic State. The two groups are blood brothers, a fact that has been recognized by some of Ahrar al Sham’s own leaders.

Moreover, Ahrar al Sham has been seeded with senior al Qaeda operatives. Ayman al Zawahiri’s top representative in Syria was Abu Khalid al Suri. A longtime al Qaeda operative, al Suri was killed in February 2014. In addition to serving al Qaeda, al Suri was also one of Ahrar al Sham’s most influential leaders.

After al Suri was killed, presumably at the hands of the Islamic State, Zawahiri released a glowing eulogy in which he described al Suri as his “advisor.” Other known al Qaeda jihadists have joined and led Ahrar al Sham as well.

While Ahrar al Sham has tried to hide some of these connections, its praise for Mullah Omar is difficult for its apologists to explain away.

Omar’s Taliban state, which Ahrar al Sham holds up as an example of a true Islamic emirate, was as radical as they come. Long before the Islamic State celebrated gory executions in its propaganda, the Taliban gained worldwide infamy for its brutality. The Taliban and al Qaeda have modified their approach to waging jihad by attempting to build more popular support for their cause. But their end goals remain unchanged. And Ahrar al Sham’s praise for this adjustment in tactics shows that it has also adopted a more gradual model for inculcating its beliefs into Syrian society. The Al Nusrah Front, which openly adheres to al Qaeda’s manhaj (methodology), is following a similar path.
http://www.juancole.com/2015/07/washington-syrias-taliban.html

The Free Men are closely allied with the open al-Qaeda affiliate, the Support Front (Jabhat al-Nusra). This is not a mere alliance of convenience. They have formed joint operation offices. They coordinate closely militarily. They have a common rubric in Idlib Province of the Army of Conquest (Jaysh al-Fath).

When the two groups of holy warriors and their allies took over the city of Idlib this summer, they conquered 18 villages north of that city largely inhabited by members of the esoteric Shiite Druze religion. The Free Men leadership gave control of the Druze villages to al-Qaeda, which promptly began stealing their property and killing them when they objected. Some 23 were massacred.

The al-Qaeda oppression of the Druze, enabled by the Free Men, tempted many members of that group to get off the fence and support the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad. In Israel, members of the Druze minority pressured the Israeli government to attack al-Qaeda so as to protect the Syrian Druze. (Israel appears to have an alliance of convenience with al-Qaeda in the Golan Heights against their common foe, the Lebanese Hizbullah, and brings wounded anti-regime fighters fighters over the border into Israel for treatment. Druze in the Israeli-held Golan rioted and attacked these wounded jihadis recently, alleging that the injure who were being transported in an Israeli ambulance were al-Qaeda).
...
One of the founders of the Free Men was Hasan Aboud, who in 2013 told an Egyptian newspaper that secularism would not be allowed and tried to assure its readers that “the rejection of democracy” does not mean domination, but rather consultation.



So, what's different between what you suggest and what Oblabla is doing ?

Shouldn't have given TOWs or allowed US export items to be sent there. And we should be drone striking JAN/IF.


How do you want to know who is Daesh, who is IF, and who is JAN - if you have no HUMINT sources in field?

We can hellfire the Taliban without supporting AQ.


What do you know about the IF so to be able to say you don't want to live under them?

See above.


By side that this information is completely obsolete, that plenty of up-to-date information has been posted in this thread meanwhile - indicating Russians have murdered nearly 2000 Syrian civilians, and SOHR cannot explain how they came to the conclusion that Russians have killed as many Daesh.... how do you want to know it was Russians that have killed as many Daesh - especially if your information comes from what you consider a 'pro-terrorist' source?

It's called a party admission. Even handicapping it a bit the VKS seems to have a better ratio of dead civilians to dead terrorists than the IDF managed in Lebanon.

Even with all the yellow journalism about ore dead civilians than ISIS, the Russians are killing more other terrorists than either and almost twice as many terrorists as civilians.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12113905/Russian-air-strikes-kill-more-civilians-than-Isil-fighters.html

According to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, more than 1,000 civilians have been killed during Russia’s four month bombing campaign. By comparison, the strikes had killed 893 Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) fighters, and 1141 militants from other factions, the monitoring group said.


In dumbest possible fashion, definition of genocide is 'intent to systematically eliminate a racial, ethnic, religious, linguistic, cultural or national group'. So, if Assad - upon instruction from the IRGC (a terrorist organization by definition of your own government), with help of Hezbollah (a terrorist organization by definition of your own government) and PFLP-GC (a terrorist organization by definition of your own government), and with support of Russia (at best described as a 'hybrid autocracy') - is systematically destroying Sunni Arab population of Syria, how do you define what is he and his allies doing?

They are fighting in a civil war against an enemy who seems to really like hanging out with/hiding behind women and children. Would be a bit like accusing the 8th air force of genocide, and even then the USAAC managed to kill far more civilians from the air, here it is a deliberate misuse of the term.


You mean: you want to 'flatten' people who are fighting for their freedom (see FSyA and IF)? But you are against 'flattening' the oppressive dictatorship that provoked them to start an armed uprising, that has incarcerated dozens of thousands of them and murdered hundreds of thousands of them - and that on the top of that is also cooperating with (at least) three major terrorist organizations, all of which are staunchly anti-USA, all anti-Israel, all anti-democracy, all anti-pluralist, and one activelly working on development of WMDs?

Yeap. I am safer as an American with the anti-Assad forces six feet deep and their camps/infrastructure destroyed, than I am with the having a state/safe areas. Really remarkable that our allies created and funded such groups.

The hundred of thousands number also includes dead SAA/NDF/BPM and terrorists.



...all provided you're really a citizen of the USA... then why is your government selling them arms worth dozens of billions - and that every single year? Why is your government - and your military - supporting their military operations in Yemen? What is making such actions 'right'?

Lobbying, money and lack of foresight in the US government. JANs chief funder wants 72 F-15s. KSA is perfectly ok doing what the Russians are doing as long as it is done in Yemen by the; the same people who are demanding we put up a NFZ in Syria.


And? What does that report says to you so you can gauge how dangerous is JAN for you?

Being part of AQ is quite enough.

OUTLAW 09
01-27-2016, 09:09 AM
I take the silver line to work - luckily it is closed today. Thanks Obama.

Of the two of us I think I am the American.

Basically the above shows you are a mark for terrorists. JAN is AQ. A decade after 9/11 and those clowns were like "yeah this is a movement we want in on." It is a shame and an insult to the victims of 9/11 that we are not hitting JAN and anyone who teams up with them with daily drone strikes - much less vaporize those pow-wows.



mwe12....these two comments of yours are actually quiet interesting in that reflects something said to me when I was working interrogation at a place called Abu Ghraib and in Baqubah, Diyala actually talking to many of the individuals that supported QJBR then and IS now and the other Sunni/Shia insurgent groupings....did that work for a long 18 months during the hottest times in Iraq 2005 to mid 2006.


At the height of the AG scandal we had a class on the use of culture in interrogation actually interesting as I had been using it daily and in the face of massive resistance from the active force leadership in AG....and BTW the instructor knew me from my former SF days in Berlin.....a big homecoming in AG in Iraq after not seeing each other since 1976 when he left Berlin to attend a US university.

He made an interesting statement about being an interrogator which by the way is a long training course by the Army......

In order to be a great interrogator YOU need no training which shocked the room full of Army personnel.

All you need is the following;
1. natural curiosity of the world around you and an interest in global affairs
2. you MUST have lived and possibly worked overseas and speak a foreign language...country where you spent time does not matter
AND lastly;
3. you MUST have an empathy for culture and how a civil society lives in that particular culture

You should have heard the hectic and loud major pushback being voiced from the military audience....BTW he lived and still is in Jordan, has a Ph.d and speaks three different Arabic dialects.

With that advice anyone who does not fulfil that cannot be in my eyes an American.......especially when it comes to foreign policy discussions.

Somehow we have forgotten we were created as and still are a multi cultural nation. And somehow along the way we ourselves have forgotten why we fought the Revolutionary War winning BTW with the help of the French.


Until you have walked in the sandals of Syrians who in 2011 AFTER an Obama speech in Cairo stood up and demanded as a civil society the 50 year end to a dictatorship under the often from the US used propaganda... rule of law, good governance and transparency....why the term "propaganda"...because the very same US that kicks out those slogans now basically abandons any civil society that uses them as their guiding light. Then this demands were met with a brutal genocide (300K killed and over 11M IDPs/refugees is a high price to pay for their demands).......as the response ...that genocide BTW is Iranian supported by every known Shia terrorist groups/IRGC and NOW Russia.

Even you must admit that is strange.

BTW......you have not really experienced anything until you have spent literally hours with a 50 year old Iraqi businessman who actively supported QJBR now IS complain to you about "globalization" in a US military prison in Iraq....concerning his inability to produce sandals cheaper than the Chinese which was driving him out of business AND why did we the US allow that to happen in Iraq.......now what would have been your response to this from his POV...a serious issue???

WHEN you have the chance and you use your smartphone on the silver line then dial in Netflix and call up the film "Winter of Fire" an excellent documentary film which BTW is up for an Oscar of the Ukrainian uprising during the deep winter against an equally brutal dictator who literally stole 40B USD in cash and gold bullion as he fled the Ukraine into Russia the land of the oligarchs that stole most of the means of production in all of Russia.

NOW after watching "Winter of Fire" ask yourself would you as an American citizen have done the exact same thing and or suffered as they did for "the goals of rule of law, transparency and good governance"...in some aspects they were replaying our own Revolutionary War and they are still at war with Russian with over 66 Russian and her mercenary attacks yesterday WHEN Obama/Kerry and the entire NSC claim "there is a ceasefire" and it is working...come on...working????

Of the two of us I think I am the American.

Let me respond to this off handed comment with the following ...until you have participated in three wars in your lifetime, two of them in the ME and until you have spent a bulk of your career dealing with the Soviet Union in Berlin during the height of the Cold War and until you have physically face to face conversed with so called "terrorists" of both the Sunni and Shia sides and until you have used the Koran in those discussions and until you have spent literally hours talking with Sunni/Shia's and until you have tasted and smelled sand storms in the ME...then you are also not an American.

AND especially when you have not served in UW wars in the US SF.

You really do need to drop using such a statement.

mwe12
01-28-2016, 11:30 PM
The US under Obama and Kerry will at some point if the US continues to do nothing be complicit in those killings if they are not already.

They are not complicit in those killings, though they rather are regarding KSA and company in Yemen and through their support of other extremist groups while importing US weapons and hanging out under a US defense umbrella.

Though two terrorists for each civilian is considerably better than Israel's six civilians per Hezbollah member, even more so when they are bombing people who hide among civilians with 1970s tech.


What does it take for the President and his DoS to stand up and state that if a nation state commits war crimes then the leader of that nation state must be charged with war crimes..

We going to host a dinner for our Mideast kinglets at Bad Saint and then arrest them all?


UN SecGen has clearly stated today the use of starvation is a war crime and if the US which claims to follow the Law of Land Warfare carefully rereads it...the deliberate targeting of civilians by a military is also a war crime......

Cuts both ways.


Reference Assad cyber attacks.....currently a high number of ongoing Syrian cyber attacks originating in Damascus and targeting the KSA....has been occurring in waves all day. Have seen the same tactic being used out of Iraq focusing on the KSA and that has been steady all day.

And poor victimized KSA exports money for terrorists and radicals the world around... :rolleyes:


Although the subtle question is ...does the WH actually agree with the killing of civilians and believe the attacks on FSA are OK.....in the their striving for a "legacy"......

America has no stomach for a war over these guys and the government has been unable to hide the stink of the anti-Assad forces. His base has increasingly moved towards staying out foreign conflicts and the other side, which he can't lead to water, has a mix of "let them kill each other", "kill them all let God sort them out", "Obama is a wimp", and a some unrepentant neocons.


It be good for the WH to look like they are doing something as it will be harder and harder to restrain Turkey and KSA both who view themselves "as defenders of the faith and Sunni global community" and Arabs when they perceive Iran is out to destroy Sunni's and Arabs.

Through support of IF, JAN and ISIS....


e are slowly getting to that point of no return OR they release the MANPADs and argue the need to defend defenseless civilians from Assad and Russian AFs.....we are almost at that point.

Thankfully I hope the US has learned from Afghanistan and has put enough pressure on them to not send MANPADS to terrorists...


NOW after that surreal drone footage this is the utter reality of a deliberate Russian air strike on civilians which might require Kerry to do more than simply "ask".....and Kerry wonders why the HNC makes "pre conditions" that he himself via the UNSC has already agreed to BUT cannot fulfill......come on it is not rocket science...just humanity...

They are basically demanding Assad/Putin surrender before they will talk.


Maybe this can help the Obama WH and Kerry fully understand the effects of Russian air strikes and just why the rebel HNC Geneva team demands they stop...this town had roughly 24K before the Russian groups attacked with Spetsnaz and Shia militia, Iraqi Shia militia, IRGC and Hezbollah....and over 800 Russian air strikes and that included carpet bombings with the Tu-122.

It's a war and Russia did not kill 24k people in that town, they fled from a civil war. Talk about a flawed taking point.


An interesting game is afoot it appears...so now if the US announces they are ceasing air strikes against all except IS/and maybe JaN and the Russians do not follow suit and continue to bomb FSA a party in the talks...IS in fact then Russia responsible for the failure of any further talks..at least until they stop bombing everyone except IS??

So would the FSA/IF stop shooting at the SAA? I think not. Russia is totally within its rights and acting above board in bombing the IF/FSA.


Maybe when it comes to Syria Kerry should be replaced with the former Ambassador to Syria...at least he calls a spade a spade.......

Thanks but no. We sure don't need another idiot calling for the use of force or giving aid to terrorists. Good to let him whine from the sidelines in some useless "think tank."


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-idUSKCN0V61M4
Before agreeing to talks, the HNC had been seeking U.N. guarantees of steps including a halt to attacks on civilian areas, a release of detainees, and a lifting of blockades. The measures were mentioned in a Security Council resolution approved last month that endorsed the peace process for Syria.

Sabra said a response from de Mistura was "unfortunately still ink on paper". "We are not certain that the opportunity is historic," he told Arabic news channel Arabiya al-Hadath.

Riad Hijab, who heads the Syrian opposition council, told Arabiya TV members might be in the city of Geneva, but would not attend the talks. He demanded immediate steps to alleviate the plight of Syrians under siege and bombardment.

...
The exclusion of a powerful Kurdish faction that controls wide areas of northern Syria has triggered a boycott by some of the invitees. Turkey had opposed the PYD's participation on the ground it views it as a terrorist group.

The United States, whose Secretary of State John Kerry is among those pushing for negotiations to start on Friday, urged the opposition to seize the "historic opportunity" and enter talks without preconditions to end the war, which has also displaced more than 11 million people.

.....
The HNC groups political and armed groups fighting Assad. It includes some of the main armed groups fighting in western Syria, including the Islamist Jaysh al-Islam, which is deemed a terrorist group by Russia, and Free Syrian Army factions that have received military support from states including the Saudi Arabia and the United States.

Earlier this week the Syrian army took a strategic town in the southern province of Deraa, securing its supply routes from the capital to the south, days after retaking more territory in Latakia province.

Damascus, Tehran and Moscow have objected to the inclusion of groups they consider terrorists in any peace talks.

Deputy Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amirabdollahian said on Thursday his country strongly opposed moves by Saudi Arabia to allow "terrorists in a new mask" to sit down for talks.

OUTLAW 09
01-29-2016, 08:31 AM
They are not complicit in those killings, though they rather are regarding KSA and company in Yemen and through their support of other extremist groups while importing US weapons and hanging out under a US defense umbrella.

Though two terrorists for each civilian is considerably better than Israel's six civilians per Hezbollah member, even more so when they are bombing people who hide among civilians with 1970s tech.



We going to host a dinner for our Mideast kinglets at Bad Saint and then arrest them all?



Cuts both ways.



And poor victimized KSA exports money for terrorists and radicals the world around... :rolleyes:



America has no stomach for a war over these guys and the government has been unable to hide the stink of the anti-Assad forces. His base has increasingly moved towards staying out foreign conflicts and the other side, which he can't lead to water, has a mix of "let them kill each other", "kill them all let God sort them out", "Obama is a wimp", and a some unrepentant neocons.



Through support of IF, JAN and ISIS....



Thankfully I hope the US has learned from Afghanistan and has put enough pressure on them to not send MANPADS to terrorists...



They are basically demanding Assad/Putin surrender before they will talk.



It's a war and Russia did not kill 24k people in that town, they fled from a civil war. Talk about a flawed taking point.



So would the FSA/IF stop shooting at the SAA? I think not. Russia is totally within its rights and acting above board in bombing the IF/FSA.



Thanks but no. We sure don't need another idiot calling for the use of force or giving aid to terrorists. Good to let him whine from the sidelines in some useless "think tank."

mwe12...there is a saying in German that I will literally translate for you...."you do realize what you just said is crxxxxxp, right"?

A third grade German student argues like you argue.

If you did not fully understand the impact of the video then my friend you are truly lost in another world and this goes to what I have repeatedly mentioned here about you.....

Either a troll and or you have never fired a gun in anger nor been outside the US...both I am afraid.

So keep on commenting but am backing out of this as you are lost in a mountain of what the Germans would call "altered state of reality" or what I call "cognitive dissonance"....meaning lost between what you think you know balanced against the brutal reality of the ME that you somehow missed by being in the US that counters your own believes or biases.

Will repeat it here again your style of not using a name to address your response and the cut an paste approach reminds me of another Russian troll named mirhond that was here for a long while on the Ukrainian thread.

So instead of cutting and pasting why not attempt to state what you actually believe and or not believe then we can cut and paste.

Otherwise just keep at reading the posted comments as that is also a form of learning about the world around you especially with the limited US MSM info on the ME that you get in the US..........

BTW---you did not answer my comments on what it takes to be "an American" when it comes to the ME...why was that?.....trolling, trolling trolling.

OUTLAW 09
01-29-2016, 08:37 AM
They are not complicit in those killings, though they rather are regarding KSA and company in Yemen and through their support of other extremist groups while importing US weapons and hanging out under a US defense umbrella.

Though two terrorists for each civilian is considerably better than Israel's six civilians per Hezbollah member, even more so when they are bombing people who hide among civilians with 1970s tech.



We going to host a dinner for our Mideast kinglets at Bad Saint and then arrest them all?



Cuts both ways.



And poor victimized KSA exports money for terrorists and radicals the world around... :rolleyes:



America has no stomach for a war over these guys and the government has been unable to hide the stink of the anti-Assad forces. His base has increasingly moved towards staying out foreign conflicts and the other side, which he can't lead to water, has a mix of "let them kill each other", "kill them all let God sort them out", "Obama is a wimp", and a some unrepentant neocons.



Through support of IF, JAN and ISIS....



Thankfully I hope the US has learned from Afghanistan and has put enough pressure on them to not send MANPADS to terrorists...



They are basically demanding Assad/Putin surrender before they will talk.



It's a war and Russia did not kill 24k people in that town, they fled from a civil war. Talk about a flawed taking point.



So would the FSA/IF stop shooting at the SAA? I think not. Russia is totally within its rights and acting above board in bombing the IF/FSA.



Thanks but no. We sure don't need another idiot calling for the use of force or giving aid to terrorists. Good to let him whine from the sidelines in some useless "think tank."

BTW mwe12...there is a serious weak point in your comments.....not a single MANPAD shipped to AFG made it outside of AFG nor has a single one of them been fired against a western aircraft OUTSIDE of AFG.

BTW mwe12....the eastern Ukraine is awash with Russian MANPADs that they shipped to their mercenaries as well as various RPG types which are slowing showing up on the illegal weapons markets here in Europe.

So what is good for the goose is not good for the gander right mwe12????

And are you mwe12 actually agreeing that the killing of hundreds of civilians including a large number of women and children is correct, legal and fully OK with you??

Let's see using that logic the 132 killed in Paris is not being counter balanced by 169 killed in a single day in Syria....racist is that not????

OUTLAW 09
01-29-2016, 08:49 AM
They are not complicit in those killings, though they rather are regarding KSA and company in Yemen and through their support of other extremist groups while importing US weapons and hanging out under a US defense umbrella.

Though two terrorists for each civilian is considerably better than Israel's six civilians per Hezbollah member, even more so when they are bombing people who hide among civilians with 1970s tech.



We going to host a dinner for our Mideast kinglets at Bad Saint and then arrest them all?



Cuts both ways.



And poor victimized KSA exports money for terrorists and radicals the world around... :rolleyes:



America has no stomach for a war over these guys and the government has been unable to hide the stink of the anti-Assad forces. His base has increasingly moved towards staying out foreign conflicts and the other side, which he can't lead to water, has a mix of "let them kill each other", "kill them all let God sort them out", "Obama is a wimp", and a some unrepentant neocons.



Through support of IF, JAN and ISIS....



Thankfully I hope the US has learned from Afghanistan and has put enough pressure on them to not send MANPADS to terrorists...



They are basically demanding Assad/Putin surrender before they will talk.



It's a war and Russia did not kill 24k people in that town, they fled from a civil war. Talk about a flawed taking point.



So would the FSA/IF stop shooting at the SAA? I think not. Russia is totally within its rights and acting above board in bombing the IF/FSA.



Thanks but no. We sure don't need another idiot calling for the use of force or giving aid to terrorists. Good to let him whine from the sidelines in some useless "think tank."

So mwe12 as a massive supporter of Putin's/Assad's moves in Syria...you must be fully aware of every statement he has made on IS being in Syria...based on all those statements..."he is in Syria to destroy Islamic State" OR at least that is WHAT he is stating publicly.... but you already know that......

NOW explain to us poorly informed here just how it is that in this Russian air strike Islamic State is nowhere to be found ----actually the closest IS position to this strike is 60kms...

BUT WAIT with that highly touted Russian MoD precision air strikes JUST how
is it possible they were off a total of 60 KMS!!

Noor Qarqour, 16-month-old girl killed in Russian/Assad air attack targeted Ariha outskirts south #Idlib y'day.
pic.twitter.com/34GUUipak2

NOW take the time to make your comment here to the family and I will be sure to pass it to them.....the floor is free for your comment....seriously I can pass it on....so please post your response to the above....it will be interesting to say the least.....

The floor is yours...........

OUTLAW 09
01-29-2016, 08:55 AM
So mwe12 as a massive supporter of Putin's/Assad's moves in Syria...you must be fully aware of every statement he has made on IS being in Syria...based on all those statements..."he is in Syria to destroy Islamic State" OR at least that is WHAT he is stating publicly.... but you already know that......

NOW explain to us poorly informed here just how it is that in this Russian air strike Islamic State is nowhere to be found ----actually the closest IS position to this strike is 60kms...

BUT WAIT with that highly touted Russian MoD precision air strikes JUST how
is it possible they were off a total of 60 KMS!!

Noor Qarqour, 16-month-old girl killed in Russian/Assad air attack targeted Ariha outskirts south #Idlib y'day.
pic.twitter.com/34GUUipak2

NOW take the time to make your comment here to the family and I will be sure to pass it to them.....the floor is free for your comment....seriously I can pass it on....so please post your response to the above....it will be interesting to say the least.....

The floor is yours...........

mwe12...this comment shows you are a troll either proRussian and or proAssad....

It's a war and Russia did not kill 24k people in that town, they fled from a civil war. Talk about a flawed taking point.

The 24K did in fact flee...WHY over 800 air strikes...many of them carpet bombing strikes...so they were suppose to stay and be killed...come on .....that is worth a snide remark...come on now you can do better.

BTW this town was not under IS control so ask yourself why it was so important for Putin to destroy it.

NOW reread the thread comments on Ukraine 2015...you will see a similar battle for a town called Debaltseve with the same amount of destruction and THEN check Grozny after the second war....where Russian artillery, GRAD and air strikes killed over 169,000. BUT they were only Chechens not Russians.

EVEN you cannot miss the similarity....but again you probably do....

BTW...mwe12...this was just in ...ABSOLUTELY not a single IS fighter and or IS positon where this barrel bomb from Assad landed...not a single IS anywhere to be seen......SO your Putin is doing WHAT supporting a genocidal dictator...GUESS he is because "it sure ain't IS he is trying to destroy in his protection of Assad."

GRAPHIC
Horrific footage of family son, still conscious w/ both legs, one arm ripped off after #Assad air strike on #Douma.
https://www.facebook.com/SyriancivildefenseinDamascusCountryside1/videos/1164888236869817/ …

OUTLAW 09
01-29-2016, 09:05 AM
They are not complicit in those killings, though they rather are regarding KSA and company in Yemen and through their support of other extremist groups while importing US weapons and hanging out under a US defense umbrella.

Though two terrorists for each civilian is considerably better than Israel's six civilians per Hezbollah member, even more so when they are bombing people who hide among civilians with 1970s tech.



We going to host a dinner for our Mideast kinglets at Bad Saint and then arrest them all?



Cuts both ways.



And poor victimized KSA exports money for terrorists and radicals the world around... :rolleyes:



America has no stomach for a war over these guys and the government has been unable to hide the stink of the anti-Assad forces. His base has increasingly moved towards staying out foreign conflicts and the other side, which he can't lead to water, has a mix of "let them kill each other", "kill them all let God sort them out", "Obama is a wimp", and a some unrepentant neocons.



Through support of IF, JAN and ISIS....



Thankfully I hope the US has learned from Afghanistan and has put enough pressure on them to not send MANPADS to terrorists...



They are basically demanding Assad/Putin surrender before they will talk.



It's a war and Russia did not kill 24k people in that town, they fled from a civil war. Talk about a flawed taking point.



So would the FSA/IF stop shooting at the SAA? I think not. Russia is totally within its rights and acting above board in bombing the IF/FSA.



Thanks but no. We sure don't need another idiot calling for the use of force or giving aid to terrorists. Good to let him whine from the sidelines in some useless "think tank."

BTW mwe12 while you are riding the so called "silver line", use your smart phone and look up in "Websters"...you do know the book?, and check the definition of "complicit"......

THEN get back to me.

If you do not respond to this direct question then we know for sure trolling is ongoing...awaiting your response to the question......

mwe12
01-29-2016, 11:39 AM
. is there any adults left in the WH and the NSC....??

Yes, ergo why we are not doing more.


[.am NATO and the EU the US is now out of the leadership role Obama has wanted.....it is now all up to the various regional powers against Russia and Iran

A bunch of GCC kinglets who cluster bomb weddings and couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, teamed with a state which jails people for discussing a genocide it did 100 years ago and is bogged down fighting Kurds. The world trembles.

The US has never intended that the bombing actually stop, never intended to end toe war crimes of killing civilians, has never intended to end the starvation an another war crime even agreed to by Ban, and this is critical never really intended to remove Assad WHEN for four years Obama claimed he had to go......WHY he simply has no strategy nor foreign policy.

And thank God we have done so little.


So mwe12 as a massive supporter of Putin's/Assad's moves in Syria...you must be fully aware of every statement he has made on IS being in Syria...based on all those statements..."he is in Syria to destroy Islamic State" OR at least that is WHAT he is stating publicly.... but you already know that......
BTW...mwe12...this was just in ...ABSOLUTELY not a single IS fighter and or IS positon where this barrel bomb from Assad landed...not a single IS anywhere to be seen......SO your Putin is doing WHAT supporting a genocidal dictator...GUESS he is because "it sure ain't IS he is trying to destroy in his protection of Assad."

A. Assad is not committing a genocide.
B. Russia has bombed ISIS. Russia is still bombing ISIS.
C. Russia is within its rights to bomb the FSA/IF/JAN while supporting Assad. Putin does not have to limit his strikes to only ISIS.


Otherwise just keep at reading the posted comments as that is also a form of learning about the world around you especially with the limited US MSM info on the ME that you get in the US..........

Your comments are weird non-native English speaking rants about Obama. Seeing people who have opinions on the spectrum with mine are a part of the reason the US has not gotten deeper with Islamists, I would say I matter more than you.


The 24K did in fact flee...WHY over 800 air strikes...many of them carpet bombing strikes...so they were suppose to stay and be killed...come on .....that is worth a snide remark...come on now you can do better.

Yeah they left - so mentioning the population between now and before the fighting started is an attempt to make it look as if they are dead, and not fled from 5 years of civil war. Maybe if the islamists had not held up in urban areas in the first place...


So instead of cutting and pasting why not attempt to state what you actually believe and or not believe then we can cut and paste.

I have many times. America should stay the hell out of this and let Russia/Hezbollah/Iran/Assad flatten JAN/ISIS/IF, I would go further and say we should join in striking those groups to keep America safe.


So keep on commenting but am backing out of this as you are lost in a mountain of what the Germans would call "altered state of reality" or what I call "cognitive dissonance"....meaning lost between what you think you know balanced against the brutal reality of the ME that you somehow missed by being in the US that counters your own believes or biases.

Please then keep your railing to Germany being complicit on this and leave us silly Americans out of your daily rants.


A third grade German student argues like you argue.

I don't know any. But fly to America and hand out flyers calling on people to save IF/JAN. Make sure you tell them that the local AQ aren't so bad.


BTW mwe12 while you are riding the so called "silver line",

I am sure I am the only American in this conversation. Probably the only one with a job also.


use your smart phone and look up in "Websters"...you do know the book?, and check the definition of "complicit"......

We are no more complicit than East Timor. No court of law would put ascribe any legal liability against Obama for acting a conspirator to Assad/Putin by not rushing in and handing out MANPADs to Islamists. Your argument holds up nowhere.

Where we are complicit is in helping the KSA wedding crash in Yemen.


If you do not respond to this direct question then we know for sure trolling is ongoing...awaiting your response to the question......

Calling you out on being totally wrong on the idea of American responsibility does not make someone a troll. Being against ones country getting in bed with JAN/IF does make you a troll. Welcome to the reality of being on the losing side of an issue.

http://www.businessinsider.com/syria-peace-talks-progress-2016-1

The council will apparently continue to deliberate in the coming days and weeks over whether it will attend at all — a development that is in line with Russia's strategy for winning the war on behalf of the regime.

"The bickering over the opposition delegation for Geneva III is the ideal opposition the Russians wish to present—leaderless, aimless and weak," Antoun Issa, a senior editor at the Middle East Institute, wrote on Thursday.

He continued:

It all leads to the fulfillment of the regime's and Russia's strategy: a Syria divided between terrorist jihadists and the Assad regime. Such a portrayal leaves the West with no option but to legitimize the Assad regime in the fight against terror, and certify Russia as the primary power in Syria.

The delegation's decision to skip the talks comes after its final calls for Syria's government to end its aerial bombardments on civilians and lift its sieges on rebel-held areas went unheeded by the UN's Syria envoy, Staffan de Mistura.

De Mistura had insisted at a press conference on Monday that "our line ... is clear: no preconditions, at least to start the talks."

The HNC sent a letter to de Mistura and UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon reiterating its demands on Wednesday. It convened in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, to await clarification from de Mistura over whether its preconditions would be met before Friday.

"There is a problem we would like to clarify with de Mistura," Riyadh Naasan Agha, a member of the HNC, told ABC. "Is the main aim of these negotiations for them to be held or to succeed?"

davidbfpo
01-29-2016, 12:45 PM
I have created this new thread to enable the exchange between Outlaw09 and mwe12 to continue - separate from the main Syria thread.

Both are Americans, one inside the Beltway and the other in Berlin. That does not exclude others from the exchange, as Crowbat too has added a post.

In a moment I will move the relevant posts here and this post will not be the first.

OUTLAW 09
01-29-2016, 01:00 PM
mwe12.....care to comment on this weird Russian FM statement...can you provide me the confrontation they are talking about.....the last time I checked Kerry and Obama did not confront Putin on anything lately...

So basically all this is propaganda....

MFA Russia ✔ @mfa_russia
#Zakharova: We call attention to the depravity of Washington’s policy of confrontation, fraught with dire consequences for global stability

OUTLAW 09
01-29-2016, 01:16 PM
Global evolution (by month) of the 600+ #ATGM fired by rebels in 2015.
~85% are #TOW.
#Syria. pic.twitter.com/cIcGlkAp2t

Azor
01-29-2016, 09:56 PM
There are over 1,000 armed opposition groups in Syria against Assad. I have read of numbers as high as 2,500.

The "Free Syrian Army" itself is an umbrella organization with dozens of different units.

Therefore, I find it ludicrous that we can even reliably categorize the opposition as secular/moderate or Islamist, even though we know all these ideologies exist on the ground.

What I can say with certainty is that the Sunni Arabs have a polarizing choice if they are to protect themselves from sectarian violence: they can support or join an Islamist group (including the extreme forms of AQ and IS) or the secular/moderates.

If we continue to allow the Iranians, Russians and Shia irregulars to primarily attack secular/moderate opposition forces (or the most secular/moderate of the opposition) then AQ and IS will come to dominate the opposition.

And unless anyone plans on using nuclear weapons, there will be millions of potential recruits...

CrowBat
01-29-2016, 11:23 PM
There are over 1,000 armed opposition groups in Syria against Assad. I have read of numbers as high as 2,500.Well, if your list would be complete, the figure would be closer to 7,000.

Means not that they're 'completely and hopelessly disunited' though. There are about a dozen of umbrella organizations that really matter. It's like if there are about a dozen of political parties: nothing unusual under given circumstances.


Therefore, I find it ludicrous that we can even reliably categorize the opposition as secular/moderate or Islamist, even though we know all these ideologies exist on the ground.Well, that's the essence of the 'problem': knowing about all the different political positions of various of its combatants, the FSyA said already back in July or August 2011: we are non-political; we first want to remove Assad, then we'll talk about politics.

But nah: everybody else knew 'better'. Therefore, all the possible foreign powers have ever since conditioned their aid on political declarations, colour of flag and other BS. First to do so was Turkey, which imposed an ultimatum upon the FSyA leadership to subject itself to the Moslem Brotherhood already in November 2011. Just a week or so later, it was followed by Qatar and Kuwait, which began providing extensive aid on condition of insurgents pledging alegiance to groups Salafist and Wahhabist movements... and when everybody else attempted to create 1-2 umbrella organizations, in autumn 2012, Qatar and Kuwait did whatever was possible to disunite, and provide aid directly to 'hand-picked' groups - all of which subsequently joined Jabhat an-Nusra.

Eventually, there is only one solution: remove Assad, then organize free and fair elections, and let the people decide on their own. Without that, we'll never know what kind of government majority of Syrians actually want to have, and whether that majority of them are 'really blood-thirsty terrorists' - like all the nearly everybody in the West and most of the East 'knows' - or else.


If we continue to allow the Iranians, Russians and Shia irregulars to primarily attack secular/moderate opposition forces (or the most secular/moderate of the opposition) then AQ and IS will come to dominate the opposition.Sounds OK but... well, if Syrians haven't turned into wildest extremists after the last five months of barbaric Russian bombardment, they'll never do so.

Means: that train is already away.

More problematic is the fact that meanwhile the JAN - which was just one foot away from all-out war not only against the FSyA, but also against the (Salafist) Ahrar ash-Sham, and which would've lost that war very badly - is now profiting from a new wave of Jihadists that are travelling to Syria in reaction to Russian military intervention there, exactly as announced here back in September.

Once again: congratulations Oblabla, and now also special thanks to Putler.

mwe12
01-30-2016, 08:18 PM
Eventually, there is only one solution: remove Assad, then organize free and fair elections, and let the people decide on their own. Without that, we'll never know what kind of government majority of Syrians actually want to have, and whether that majority of them are 'really blood-thirsty terrorists' - like all the nearly everybody in the West and most of the East 'knows' - or else.

That would require a war with Russia at this point, to "simply" remove Assad and his allies, and those free elections would go south with Qatari/Kuwaiti money, Turkish pressure, and MB/AQ muscle.

Shades of thinking skinny jean wearing pro-western hipsters were going to run Egypt.


irst to do so was Turkey, which imposed an ultimatum upon the FSyA leadership to subject itself to the Moslem Brotherhood already in November 2011. Just a week or so later, it was followed by Qatar and Kuwait, which began providing extensive aid on condition of insurgents pledging alegiance to groups Salafist and Wahhabist movements... and when everybody else attempted to create 1-2 umbrella organizations, in autumn 2012, Qatar and Kuwait did whatever was possible to disunite, and provide aid directly to 'hand-picked' groups - all of which subsequently joined Jabhat an-Nusra.

Our lovely and endangered regional allies, who we simply "must support."


mwe12.....care to comment on this weird Russian FM statement...can you provide me the confrontation they are talking about.....the llast time I checked Kerry and Obama did not confront Putin on anything lately...

Nothing out of the ordinary.


Let's see using that logic the 132 killed in Paris is not being counter balanced by 169 killed in a single day in Syria....racist is that not????

Not racist at all.


NOW explain to us poorly informed here just how it is that in this Russian air strike Islamic State is nowhere to be found ----actually the closest IS position to this strike is 60kms...

They are totally within their rights to pummel the FSA/IF/JAN/MB along with ISIS. That people flip out over it is rather comical.


If we continue to allow the Iranians, Russians and Shia irregulars to primarily attack secular/moderate opposition forces (or the most secular/moderate of the opposition) then AQ and IS will come to dominate the opposition.

JAN, the IF and other crazies get lumped by Anti-Assad groups into that vaunted "non-ISIS forces" that Putin is bombing on top of civilians. "Vetted" groups fight hand in hand with terrorists. It's a weird neverland when guys who are in a military alliance with groups who are part of AQ still get considered to be moderates.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2016/1/29/at-geneva-talks-syrian-opposition-sees-little-to-gain-and-much-to-lose.html

“It is a complete failure,” one Western diplomat, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Reuters as the HNC boycott loomed. “With whom [is the Syrian government] going to talk? If you want to engage in negotiations, you have to have a partner. It’s a wonderful occasion for the regime to show they are willing.”

That is precisely the dilemma for the HNC, and the reason Syria's opposition is lukewarm on the peace effort even after five years of bloodshed: No matter what happens in Geneva, and regardless of whether they show up or not, the government can benefit merely by sitting down. The risks are far greater for the rebels, who know that sitting down with Assad will be perceived on the ground as legitimizing the government and could therefore further erode their already splintered support if talks do not bear any fruit. Hence, the importance in securing some concessions to present their supporters before Geneva kicked off.

...
But rebel contempt for the diplomatic process is not merely about their mistrust of the government. There is a widely held perception among the HNC and its supporters that the geopolitical balance in Syria’s war now tilts decidedly in favor of Assad's forces, largely due to Russia's military intervention in Syria that is beginning to pay dividends for Assad on the ground. Backed by Russian airstrikes on key rebel targets (as well as occasional strikes on the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant), government forces scored their latest and perhaps biggest victory last week when they captured the southern town of Sheikh Miskeen, cutting off a critical transit route for the rebels between Daraa and Damascus.

...
Publicly, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry had urged the HNC to abandon its demands for preconditions and warned against missing a “historic opportunity." Behind closed doors, however, some rebel sources told reporters this week that Washington was threatening to cut off aid if the HNC did not attend Geneva — an allegation Washington denied.

http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/syrias-kurds-leave-geneva-after-not-being-invited-to-talks/


Saleh Muslim, co-president of the Democratic Union Party, or PYD, left when it became clear he would not be invited to participate, according to Kurdish official Nawaf Khalil.

The participation of the PYD has been a divisive issue in advance of the Geneva talks. Turkey, which has struggled with its own large Kurdish population, considers the PYD a terrorist organization and the HNC claims they are too close to the Syrian government.

Unlike other groups from outside the HNC that were invited as advisers, the PYD received no invitation from U.N. Special Envoy to Syria Staffan de Mistura.

The move to exclude the PYD angered Qadri Jamil, a former Syrian deputy prime minister who has become a leading opposition figure but is not part of the HNC. Jamil said the PYD’s military wing has been the most effective force on the ground in Syria fighting the Islamic State group.

“The PYD is a historic part of the Syrian democratic opposition and PYD today is fighting terrorism on the ground and it is a main force,” Jamil told a group of journalists in Geneva on Saturday.

Jamil said they are working with the U.N. to resolve the crisis regarding the representation of the PYD.

Bassam Bitar of the opposition’s Movement for a Pluralistic Society said the PYD will most likely be invited to take part in future rounds of negotiations.

OUTLAW 09
01-30-2016, 10:24 PM
Russian info warfare or what is known as "weaponization of information" trolling requires a number of things....among them the ability to deflect, distort and distract. (key elements of the Russian 6Ds of propaganda)........all the while setting a particular narrative....as the narrative is the message they are attempting to push.

It has been seen in the last 18 months of weaponization of information that those that troll tend to have an interesting indicator or fingerprint so to speak.....they specifically fail to address questions placed to them and tend to reinforce their own narrative by massive cutting and pasting as if it lends creditability to their narrative AND the cutting and pasting is used to reinforce the deflection, distortion and distraction of their narrative.

Specific questions were placed to this commenter and none answered......why is that?....answering the question/questions pulls the troll off his or her "narrative"....and then it is hard to get back on "message" and control the narrative.

You will notice that this particular commenter tends to fulfill the above points .....

OUTLAW 09
01-30-2016, 11:03 PM
Russian info warfare or what is known as "weaponization of information" trolling requires a number of things....among them the ability to deflect, distort and distract. (key elements of the Russian 6Ds of propaganda)........all the while setting a particular narrative....as the narrative is the message they are attempting to push.

It has been seen in the last 18 months of weaponization of information that those that troll tend to have an interesting indicator or fingerprint so to speak.....they specifically fail to address questions placed to them and tend to reinforce their own narrative by massive cutting and pasting as if it lends creditability to their narrative AND the cutting and pasting is used to reinforce the deflection, distortion and distraction of their narrative.

Specific questions were placed to this commenter and none answered......why is that?....answering the question/questions pulls the troll off his or her "narrative"....and then it is hard to get back on "message" and control the narrative.

You will notice that this particular commenter tends to fulfill the above points .....

Here is the example of just how the trolling works.......

I will place question to mwe12 a newly recently joined member and we will see if it is answered.......

mwe12 what is your position on these demands from the HNC which really are the same demands in the last UNSC resolution supported by both Russia and the US ......??

HNC spokesman Riad al-Agha says 3 steps before talks start are end of sieges, end of bombardment of civilians, & release of prisoners.

mwe12
01-31-2016, 12:21 AM
mwe12 what is your position on these demands from the HNC which really are the same demands in the last UNSC resolution supported by both Russia and the US ......??

Preconditions meant to derail the talks.

They are essentially demanding the right to hide among civilians without Putin/Assad being able to club them. Clearly they know Russia will not end the air campaign and Assad/Iran will not drop their offensives, so they hope this can be a way out of them having to take part in talks.


You will notice that this particular commenter tends to fulfill the above points .....

After your comments about how great those crazy JAN kids are maybe you are the one getting paid per post (and you do seem to like to respond to one post 5 times).


Specific questions were placed to this commenter and none answered......why is that?....answering the question/questions pulls the troll off his or her "narrative"....and then it is hard to get back on "message" and control the narrative.

I would like to think I brought out the DeMarini in response to your points. You rail with worn out talking points about genocide and Obama being at fault, because practically no-one in his base wants to go to war over this, but when pushed all you have is weird rants about a Russian internet conspiracy to hire people to disagree with you.

Pointing out that Russia is free to flatten another terrorist group 60km away from an ISIS position in response to you saying that is not deflecting your points, it's pointing out a truth.


Russian info warfare or what is known as "weaponization of information" trolling requires a number of things....among them the ability to deflect, distort and distract. (key elements of the Russian 6Ds of propaganda)........all the while setting a particular narrative....as the narrative is the message they are attempting to push.

Conspiracy theory nonsense. It is possible to read the MSM give liver-eaters op-ed space and run with AJ's narrative and still come to the conclusion we are better with groups allied to and brigaded with AQ dead.



And the British dressmaker still has it at considerably more terrorists per civilian, though I would question the actual civilian status of many of those.
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2016/01/30/Nearly-1-400-civilians-killed-in-Russia-s-Syria-air-strikes.html

Reuters, Amman Saturday, 30 January 2016

Russian airstrikes on Syria have killed nearly 1,400 civilians since Moscow started its aerial campaign nearly four months ago, a group monitoring the war said on Saturday.

The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, which collects information from a network of sources on the ground, said the Russian strikes had also killed 965 ISIS fighters as well as 1,233 fighters from various other insurgent groups.

Not much of a genocide.

OUTLAW 09
01-31-2016, 08:35 AM
Preconditions meant to derail the talks.

They are essentially demanding the right to hide among civilians without Putin/Assad being able to club them. Clearly they know Russia will not end the air campaign and Assad/Iran will not drop their offensives, so they hope this can be a way out of them having to take part in talks.



After your comments about how great those crazy JAN kids are maybe you are the one getting paid per post (and you do seem to like to respond to one post 5 times).



I would like to think I brought out the DeMarini in response to your points. You rail with worn out talking points about genocide and Obama being at fault, because practically no-one in his base wants to go to war over this, but when pushed all you have is weird rants about a Russian internet conspiracy to hire people to disagree with you.

Pointing out that Russia is free to flatten another terrorist group 60km away from an ISIS position in response to you saying that is not deflecting your points, it's pointing out a truth.



Conspiracy theory nonsense. It is possible to read the MSM give liver-eaters op-ed space and run with AJ's narrative and still come to the conclusion we are better with groups allied to and brigaded with AQ dead.



And the British dressmaker still has it at considerably more terrorists per civilian, though I would question the actual civilian status of many of those.
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2016/01/30/Nearly-1-400-civilians-killed-in-Russia-s-Syria-air-strikes.html


Not much of a genocide.

mwe12...notice you never reply to the commenter you attempt to cut and paste on do you?

2. this by the way is the core tenor of your narrative for the entire post.

Preconditions meant to derail the talks.

They are essentially demanding the right to hide among civilians without Putin/Assad being able to club them. Clearly they know Russia will not end the air campaign and Assad/Iran will not drop their offensives, so they hope this can be a way out of them having to take part in talks.

Example of a troll is then set/contained within this above statement.

Why is this statement interesting ...because you in effect take on the Putin mindset that yes I will play at supporting the US to get the latest UNSC resolution passed WHICH specifically sets out the urgent need for humanitarian aid to flow AND it sets out that bombing of civilians MUST stop.

WHICH mwe12 then places Russia on record for stopping the bombing and starting the flow of humanitarian aid.

BUT since you are a troller you fully understand that this is just Russian camouflage as Putin knows aid will never make it in thus he can continue his bombing of the Assad opposition ALL the while arguing in front a camera...see they are setting "pre conditions"....BTW Obama even uses this argument so where is the difference between say Putin and Obama's strategies in Syria?...Putin has one and Obama has none.

3. this previous comment of yours is trolling as well as is it deflecting from the overall truth of Syria....namely there was and still is genocide being driven by Assad and now Putin.

Your comment not mine....
A. Assad is not committing a genocide.
B. Russia has bombed ISIS. Russia is still bombing ISIS.
C. Russia is within its rights to bomb the FSA/IF/JAN while supporting Assad. Putin does not have to limit his strikes to only ISIS.

mwe12...you are attempting as a troll to cover the very public press conference held by Putin before he flew to the UNGA meeting...will be more than happy to point you to the actual Russian version where if you spoke Russian you would clearly hear and see that he states "his only reason for engaging into Syria was the destruction of IS...end of story....THAT exact story was then repeated in his UNGA speech also in Russian.

BUT then as a troll you would have also known that he and his FM BOTH in two separate interviews two days later defined a "terrorist" as someone carrying an AK47 and fighting against Assad...will be more than happy to point you to that Russian interview as well.....always use the native language of the individual not some MSM translation into English.

SO now based on the widened Putin definition of what a "terrorist" is then your narrative that you are pushing makes sense at least to you as it makes sense to Putin and his FM.

Using the Putin definition of what a "terrorist is" would make the large number of US militias in fact "terrorists".

Again this response and all of your responses are nothing more than trolling as you really do not contribute anything that has not been already published by say Sputnik, TASS or Interfax and or uttered by a Russian FM who basically lies with every interview.

NOW a challenge to you.....if you think the Russian FM is not a lair then check his recent press conference this week WHERE he makes the statement and clearly makes the statement again in Russian THAT Russia did not violate the 1994 Budapest Memorandum because "they did not nuke the Ukraine".

As he is a major troller himself he naturally failed to mention that he was only talking about one of six points in the Budapest Memo... he FORGOT conveniently the other FIVE points that Russia did/has been in fact violating.

JUST as he always states during press conferences that the Ukraine has not implemented all 11 points in Minsk 2 WHEN Russia has not even fulfilled the single beginning point IE a true "ceasefire" and the required all for all POW exchanges.....

BTW your responses here were again; distortion, deflection and a distraction.

This section is interesting has it shows you are attempting to combine distortion, deflection and distraction into one comment.....

Quote:

Russian info warfare or what is known as "weaponization of information" trolling requires a number of things....among them the ability to deflect, distort and distract. (key elements of the Russian 6Ds of propaganda)........all the while setting a particular narrative....as the narrative is the message they are attempting to push.

Your response;
Conspiracy theory nonsense. It is possible to read the MSM give liver-eaters op-ed space and run with AJ's narrative and still come to the conclusion we are better with groups allied to and brigaded with AQ dead.


Again highly suggest you reread the entire Ukrainian 2014-2015 and now 2016 threads to fully understand the term "weaponization of information"...

Because you fully use the Russian 6Ds of propaganda.

BTW cut and pasting really does make staying on message easy for trollers...
same technique is being used over on the Twitter side.

SECOND challenge to your trolling... with the initially secret Russian Syrian unrestricted SOFA signed in AUGUST and WHEN did Putin start bombing and WHAT is his true intent in Syria??....the destruction of any and all opposition to Assad that could be a future problem for his SOFA.

BTW this agreement was not released by the Russian FM... it was released by "a so called independent Russian specialist" residing in the West and rumored to be close to Putin.......AND the US MSM did not pick it up for almost a week.

Russian soldiers at the Hameimim air base in Latakia. Assad's flag nowhere in sight. #SovereignSyria?

Prove that you can provide a direst answer to the two direct questions...but make them more than a single sentence and not in the cut and past trolling format.

CrowBat
01-31-2016, 09:30 AM
I'm happy to have put him on igno... but from reading your posts, Outlaw, it seems he's claiming that insurgents are 'hiding between civilians'.

This is a typical idiotic narrative about this war - in complete ignorace of the fact that the insurgents are Syrians, and fighting for safety of their families and homes.

After all, nearly 70% of the ex-Syrian Arab Army (and other of regime's military branches) have defected in 2011-2012 period. Practically all of FSyA, nearly all of IF and AAS units are led by officers and NCOs that defected. Each of them has a wife and kids. If they make up only 50% of the insurgency, and each has a wife and two kids only (most have more kids, but well...), we're talking about 400,000 people.

Where should they all go? And why should they leave their homes?

And where should 13 million internally displaced Syrians - majority of whom fled from regime's, IRGC's, and now Russian terror - go?

OUTLAW 09
01-31-2016, 09:47 AM
I'm happy to have put him on igno... but from reading your posts, Outlaw, it seems he's claiming that insurgents are 'hiding between civilians'.

This is a typical idiotic narrative about this war - in complete ignorace of the fact that the insurgents are Syrians, and fighting for safety of their families and homes.

After all, nearly 70% of the ex-Syrian Arab Army (and other of regime's military branches) have defected in 2011-2012 period. Practically all of FSyA, nearly all of IF and AAS units are led by officers and NCOs that defected. Each of them has a wife and kids. If they make up only 50% of the insurgency, and each has a wife and two kids only (most have more kids, but well...), we're talking about 400,000 people.

Where should they all go? And why should they leave their homes?

And where should 13 million internally displaced Syrians - majority of whom fled from regime's, IRGC's, and now Russian terror - go?

CrowBat... follow the trolling logical end game...if terrorists are hiding his term among civilians and if the civilians are bombed/killed then that is OK as they should have not been hiding the "terrorists" in the first place.

Which if followed to the end means it is the "fault" of those killed as they should have kicked the" terrorists" out of their houses, schools, churches, food relief/NGO centers, IDP centers and hospitals and Putin is doing us all a great favor by killing them for us....

"Thus no genocide is being committed"...."just good ole fashion killing of terrorists"......and if stupid people get in the way it is their fault...his logical thought pattern to its conclusion.

Remember he basically admitted this with his comment on the 132 killed in Paris with a massive outcry and no one says anything if 169 are killed by Putin in a single day...and that day after day...meaning he accepts that French civilians are better than Syrian civilians or taking it a step further dead Christians outweigh dead Muslims....but he will not go that far.....as that is in fact racist...it is not in what he says..it is how the words he uses says what he wants to say.

There is a very old US saying and it is racist....." a good Indian is a dead Indian......"

NOTICE he mentioned nothing about say Hezbollah and the Iraqi Hezbollah KH both being declared by the US as "terrorist organizations" fighting along side Putin and their killing/starving of Syrian civilians.

AND if in fact he is a "true American" then one would think he would be interested in Putin killing them as well as they have a ton of "US blood on their hands"...but certainly not in having Putin working with them as that would then mean Putin approved of them killing Americans in the past....

That he conveniently skipped over that in his perceived anger against Sunni terrorists.

OUTLAW 09
01-31-2016, 12:55 PM
mwe12...notice the posted comment on the Iraqi Hezbollah terrorist group KH........fully supported and backed by the IRGC...and is fighting in Syria and has been declared a known terrorist group by the US and has killed a large number of US military personnel.

Khamenei.ir @khamenei_ir
Order of Fat'h given by Chief Commander of Armed forces to IRGC Navy commanders who captured intruding U.S. marines.
pic.twitter.com/1gkGz2bh2p

So while Putin is "killing Sunni terrorists for the West" the known Shia terrorists are being over looked......right??

And that was not the intent of the Obama Iran Deal.......???

BUT WAIT did not Putin claim he was fighting all terrorists.....he must not have been thinking about those pesky Shia terrorists he is supporting with his air strikes.....

OUTLAW 09
01-31-2016, 02:49 PM
BUT WAIT Putin in his UNGA speech "claimed" to want to destroy IS and that was why he was in Syria....

So how does this match the Russian rhetoric.......?

News
The #RuAF once again flies massive supportive air strikes for #ISIS, hitting rebel positions north of #Aleppo

No surprise that rebels fighting #ISIS in Sandaf & Mare’a in north rural #Aleppo were targeted by #Russia|n airstrikes today.

Russian-led #coalition heading for stunning #victory in #Syria, 'Almost all hospitals & schools have been destroyed'

OUTLAW 09
01-31-2016, 03:07 PM
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/syriasource/geneva-is-that-all-there-is

January 28, 2016

Geneva: Is That All There Is?

By Frederic C. Hof


Without doubt the High Negotiations Committee of the Syrian opposition will authorize and direct its delegation to go to Geneva to engage in indirect "proximity talks" under the supervision of UN Special Envoy Staffan de Mistura. Whatever burdens have been borne by this opposition for the better part of five years, it simply cannot risk being blamed for the collapse of a diplomatic initiative spearheaded by an otherwise empty-handed United States. Whatever disappointments the opposition has experienced over the years from the mismatch between administration words and actions, it simply is not in a position to alienate Washington. As it did two years ago in Geneva, the opposition will mount the gallows of Syrian public opinion and hope the hangman overslept.

From the beginning of the Syria crisis, those who rose against the incompetence, corruption, and brutality of the Assad regime have suffered from a friendship deficit. Washington's desire to see Assad gone was and remains somewhere between wishful and advisory in nature—no match for the material determination of Tehran and Moscow to keep their client indefinitely in power in at least part of Syria.

The Obama administration sought, for its own domestic political purposes, to camouflage this fundamental imbalance with rhetoric about red lines and people stepping aside. It sacrificed its own reputation and credibility in the process. Iran, on the other hand, used its Lebanese militia to save Assad militarily in 2013. Russia has been employing its air force to save Assad since the fall of 2015. The American response to the strategic, diplomacy-shaping actions of others has been plaintive: surely Assad's friends know what an asset he is for the Islamic State (ISIL, ISIS, Daesh); surely Russia and Iran know that ISIL is our common enemy; surely Moscow and Tehran will work with us to put Assad to the side so Syrians can unite against ISIL; surely they know what a mistake they are making by intervening militarily. To speculate on how all of this is processed in the Kremlin, Tehran, and Damascus is to invite clinical depression.

One can be as critical as one wants about the performance to date of the external Syrian opposition. Indeed, it is infinitely easier for senior American and UN officials to take a didactic tone with the High Negotiations Committee than it is to confront Russian President Vladimir Putin or Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov about their actions or those of their client in creating a rising toll of death, destruction, displacement, and terror among Syrian civilians—all of which benefit ISIL and all of which make creative diplomacy and compromise impossible. It is easier to lecture the Syrian opposition about its responsibility to engage in a dialogue than it is to corner Iran's president—now doing a "come and sell stuff to Iran" victory lap through European capitals —about Tehran's role in facilitating war crimes and crimes against humanity in Syria.

The Syrian opposition is, to be sure, organizationally challenged. It is fractious. It cannot defeat Iran, Russia, and the regime inside Syria. Its ability to protect its own constituents is very limited. If airdropped tomorrow onto a welcoming Damascus it might, while eschewing collective punishment and mass murder, still prove lacking in governing skills. But this oft-reviled opposition wants Assad—an asset for ISIL and a tool of Hezbollah—gone. Is this not a basis for a close relationship with Washington? Are these people neither worth cultivating nor treating with respect?

And for all of their defects they are neither blind nor stupid. They see Russians and Iranians killing armed Syrian rebels and civilians alike for the sake of preserving a useful client. They know that the greatest power on earth—the United States of America—has protected not a single Syrian inside Syria from the depredations of the Assad regime or its allies—not a single Syrian. And now they are being told exactly what they were told in 2013, before the Geneva conference fiasco of January 2014: come to Geneva, engage in dialogue, help the world see who is serious about this process and who is not, and we will be with you if the other side does not deliver.

There are two missing ingredients in the relationship between the US government and the Syrian opposition: trust and confidence. Evidently some of what Secretary of State John Kerry said days ago to the General Coordinator of the High Negotiations Committee, former Syrian Prime Minister Riyad Hijab, was misunderstood and/or deliberately misrepresented to the media by some of Kerry's listeners. The Department of State has moved rapidly to refute allegations that Kerry was essentially presenting Russian talking points. Did the American side care enough about the audience to insure that the words it used were measured carefully and clearly understood? Was the Syrian side—on the basis of past performance—predisposed to hear something that simply was not said? How can this relationship be so lacking in basic trust and confidence? Who was it, after all, that the United States recognized in December 2012 as the legitimate representative of the Syrian people?

If the Obama administration wants the Syrian opposition to risk whatever positive standing it may have inside Syria for the sake of a diplomatic due diligence exercise aimed at proving to the world that which is already known—that the Assad regime, Russia, and Iran have no interest in genuine Syrian political transition—then it will have to sit with the opposition and spell out what it intends to do to protect Syrian civilians once the exercise has run its course. The course itself need not be lengthy. If the bombings, sieges, and mass incarcerations continue, there is nothing to discuss—it is, as Special Envoy Staffan de Mistura told the UN Security Council on January 18, just another trip to Geneva. If the Assad regime does not accept the terms of reference embodied in the June 30, 2012 Geneva Final Communique, there is nothing to negotiate. It will just be a repeat of Geneva, January 2014.

On January 27 the following exchange, which did not escape the attention of the High Negotiations Committee, occurred during the Department of State daily press briefing:

QUESTION: And the—and at the same time, the Russians and the Syrians are providing additional support to the fight, or to their side of the fight. At what point does the United States decide that this test may be—that they failed the test and decide to increase—to increase pressure or change the balance of power on the ground in support of the people that the Americans are supporting?

MR TONER: Sure. I think that’s a very valid but also very difficult question to answer. I would say we’re still committed—strongly committed—to seeing this process move forward. We feel like, since really this process began and has taken shape throughout the autumn, that we have gathered a little momentum here, that we have moved the parties together in the sense of having these talks, and that we’ve got to keep that momentum going.

In the immortal words of the late Peggy Lee, "Is that all there is?" Because if that's all there is—if the Obama administration is just going to keep on dancing for the next twelve months-minus—2016 will be a very bad year indeed for Syrians, their neighbors, Western Europe, and the United States. The Syrian opposition will, with much apprehension and dread, play the role it has been asked to play in helping to reveal the obvious and unveil that which is already plainly visible to those who elect to see. It is, after all, the weakest of the actors. It continues to hope that the strongest will emerge from hiding behind the curtain and appear, at last, center stage.

OUTLAW 09
01-31-2016, 03:36 PM
Here is a truly critical sentence that even Hof missed......and he wrote it..

This is the same exact US Obama policy being pushed onto Ukraine for the last year by the US and what I call unilateral appeasement without a single reciprocal Russian move....the same exact argument amazing......

Paraphrased it goes lie this....you Ukraine you must implement all aspects of Minsk 2 and then if the Russians do not then the whole world will see that Russia is not implementing Minsk.....THE core problem is then Ukraine has basically given away the store for ABSOLUTELY nothing after actually being invaded and their territory militarily annexed in the 21st Century ALL with the assistance of the US....

And now they are being told exactly what they were told in 2013, before the Geneva conference fiasco of January 2014: come to Geneva, engage in dialogue, help the world see who is serious about this process and who is not, and we will be with you if the other side does not deliver.

The last part of the sentence is the critical part....that is exactly what the Ukraine is being told repeatedly by Kerry, Biden and Nuland...and all the while the Russian military and her mercenaries are still conducting between 40-70 attacks a day killing and wounding UAF AND not a single comment by Obama, Kerry and Nuland AND here is the important piece...Russia has never fulfilled a single point of Minsk 2 NOR does it every plan to.

SO the core question just why does it appear that the Obama foreign policy is the exact same foreign policy of Putin.....??

OUTLAW 09
01-31-2016, 03:45 PM
http://mebriefing.com/?p=2140

How Obama Ended Up Following Putin’s Syria Script and Giving Assad a Victory?


The meeting between Secretary John Kerry and the head of Syrian opposition’s delegation in the transitional talks Dr. Riyad Hijab January 23 in Riyadh stirred a very negative reaction in many opposition circles. Kerry tried to convey a message that lowers opposition’s expectations and packs their goals into the practical frame of the talks drawn with the Russians. But the Secretary’s language threatened the prospects of constructive engagement by the groups which are proposed to participate in the talks.

Mr. Kerry had the difficult task of incorporating Russian-Assad positions and parameters within a plan that addresses as well the goals of the opposition. It is the usual intrinsic challenge of trying to reach a framework for negotiating an end to a tough conflict like the one in Syria. The result was a clear tilt to Moscow’s position. The question now is: Will these talks succeed?

Kerry’s message confused Hijab and the opposition groups alike. It is still not clear if this was done intentionally by the Secretary of State. He made it clear that there will be no preconditions set for the talks, not even a commitment to the departure of Assad at any point in the future. He also oscillated between describing Geneva-1 and Vienna communiques as “references” of the negotiations. And he used the term “unity government” side by side with the term “transitional government” which caused additional confusion.

Furthermore, Kerry’s proposed “confidence building” measures did not include exchange of prisoners or a halt of air raids or barrel bombs targeting civilian areas during talks. The secretary also said other opposition representatives, proposed by Moscow and considered by the rest of the opposition as too close to the Assad regime, will also be present in the talks. Faced with solid rejection by the opposition, those Assad-friendly groups would be labeled “consultants” to the UN envoy Staphan de Mistura and not a parallel opposition delegation.

After Turkey’s threats to end its cooperation in the process if the PKK linked Syria’s Kurdish Democratic Union is invited, de Mistura decided to avoid inviting the group. The Russian selected “opposition” delegation will be stationed in Lausanne while the talks would be in Geneva. The letter of invitation failed to mention the Geneva-1 communique even after President Obama and Secretary Kerry hailed the Geneva-1 communique as the “foundation” of the solution since it was signed in 2012.

The difference between the two communiques, the Geneva-1 and Vienna’s, is that the former emphasizes the importance of the transitional phase towards a solution while the later failed to mention distinctively this phase, and emphasized instead the need to fight terrorism. This applies as well to the UNSC Resolution 2254. This difference expressed a retreat from the previous position of insisting on excluding Assad’s effective governance during the transition phase. The Geneva-1 pointed out to “a transitional body that enjoys all executive powers”. Russia accepted the Geneva-1 communique before having its military “surge” in Syria. It de facto withdrew its support of the communique at the beginning of its military operations there.

This shift in emphasis gained a central place in the preparatory talks of the last few weeks, particularly with Kerry’s ambiguous language on the issue of Geneva-1. An opposition leader told MEB that basing the talks on the Vienna communique “will lead nowhere”. “The Vienna process gives prominence to the regional dynamics of the crisis and almost neglects its domestic Syria dimension. It presupposes the willingness of Assad to reach a deal with his opponents. This presupposition reflects that the two powers, Russia and the US, reached a joint understanding and took it to the region to include the regional powers. The question remains: Where would the Syrians fit here? I do not think that the Syrian crisis was merely a regional or global issue. No solution will be sustainable without a genuine and full inclusion of the opposition”, he said.

It is possible that Kerry overplayed his hand under the impact of freshly reached understanding with Lavrov and Saudi Arabia. It cannot be dismissed neither that the approach of the Secretary may work in starting a partial ceasefire. Yet, it is almost certain that this approach, and regardless of any argument that it was the only possible one, may not be sustainable and will not represent a real “solution” to the crisis.

The State Department rushed to contain the negative impact of Kerry-Hijab meeting. Michael Ratney, the administration’s point man for Syria, spent hours with opposition leaders on the phone following the meeting. Ratney tried to play down the points that caused concern among opposition groups all the while keeping the main lines of the US-Russian understanding intact. But Kerry’s warning that if the opposition refused to go to the talks, the negotiation will start anyway, was echoing loudly among the opposition groups and splitting them further.

The talks, if they start, which is still a big “if”, are slated to go on for 10 days. The “Syria Friends” group of nation will then meet in February 11 to evaluate the results of the talks and prepare the following round. The main focus of the first round will be the ceasefire and providing humanitarian aid to Syria’s civilians. Issues related to transition and the future of the country will not be discussed.

However, the invitation issued by de Mistura emphasized the need to form a transitional government to set a time table for the transitional process. This process would result in elections supervised by the UN and to form a non-sectarian, inclusive and credible government and start the process of writing a new Constitution” (No word about a transitional government with full powers). Theoretically, Assad would be able to run again in the elections. Kerry hinted to GCC foreign ministers during their meeting in Riyadh that Assad will not run “if everything goes according to plan”. Those were almost word by word what Putin told his interlocutors since last fall.

The whole picture reflects a shift in the previous US approach to Syria. The illicit logic of that shift gives priority to counterterrorism over looking at Syria within the boundaries of its overall political conflict, which gave rise to terrorism. The nature of the new approach gives precedence to working with Russia and regional powers. In other words, Mr. Putin succeeded in causing a deeper effect than expected on the US approach to the Syrian conflict.

On the ground, however, it is difficult to see how this approach would achieve the required effects, either in fighting terrorism or in solving the political crisis, even if regional powers decided, under pressure, to stop their assistance to the opposition. The weak point of this “Russian” approach –now adopted now by Washington- lies in its crudeness.

For if a deal is reached on the bases of considering most opposition groups terrorists, as seems to be the essence of this approach, a wider war will be in our hands in a matter of few months. This will buy the Obama administration a cheap and superficial “accomplishment” for a short time, while failing to end the crisis on any sustainable way. The bottom line of this approach is exactly what Putin wanted all along. All what happened is that the US delivered its allies to the Kremlin.

The reason behind this conclusion stems from the fact that the approach has the following underlying aspects:

* It places the emphasis on immediate goals at the expense of the overall objectives. This is clear in giving priority to ceasefire and humanitarian aid, and in neglecting to frame these objectives in a process that promises the non-terrorist opposition leaders a possible solution which enables them to restrain their members.

* It is based on duel “references”, that of Geneva-1 which is acceptable by the mainstream opposition groups, and that of Vienna and the UN SCR 2254, which were promoted as the only acceptable references by the regime and the Russians, and which drop the need for Assad to leave or commit to departure after a successful transition.

* It enables terrorist groups like ISIL and Nusra to ask the others: What have you really achieved after five years of fighting? The question would turn into a major factor in pulling members of other groups, who saw their families and friends killed by the regime, to join those who refuse this kind of solution which effectively means that Assad won. In other words, there is nothing for the leaders of the invited groups to show their members in terms of justification for their participation in the talks.

* There are enough arms in Syria to make dependence on either regional powers or the US minimal.

* It cannot be certain that what Kerry hears wherever he goes is true or will indeed happen. Pressure may bring about a superficial consent while the real calculations may be carefully hidden and acted upon.

Continued........

But is there any chance it could work?

Continued......

Washington has given up a lot of grounds in Syria to Moscow’s views. The initial position of Washington, that the Assad regime can never return Syria to stability, was the right one. There will be no stability in Syria for years to come if Russia’s crude and militarized “Grozny” approach carry the transitional process to where Mr. Putin wants it to go.

Continued.....

Secretary Kerry ended up following Putin’s Syria script. No surprise. As this administration proved over and over again that it does not have a strategy, it was to be expected that it will follow those who do.

Continued.......

mwe12
01-31-2016, 07:22 PM
mwe12...notice you never reply to the commenter you attempt to cut and paste on do you?

I do respond. I take each one of your points to the woodshed. I think you are either paid by the post (hopefully you monetize this) or live in a well padded room.

1. Dealt with your genocide lie.
2. Pointed out correctly that Putin is free to bomb other armed groups.
3. Pointed out correctly Putin has killed more terrorists/Islamists than civilians by a wide margin.
4. Pointed out the US/US public is not on board to go fight Assad to put those clowns in power.
5. You support JAN.
6. I believe we are safer with Assad in power. Several Presidential candidates back that position. And it's not an uncommon position on the street here.
7. I think the US should be striking JAN/IF forces and anyone they are brigaded with.
8. Obama/Kerry also consider those to be preconditions on talks and had to threaten our little Islamists to show up.
9. Now everyone who doesn't agree with you is a racist.

Not sure what is ducking or trolling on my end. On yours you rant and complain that Russian agents are raiding your fridge, and call me a troll but your genocide argument is a dud, you new racism argument holds no water, and basically you are on the fringe side of an issue.


Again this response and all of your responses are nothing more than trolling as you really do not contribute anything that has not been already published by say Sputnik, TASS or Interfax and or uttered by a Russian FM who basically lies with every interview.

I think you live in a ideologically protected world where anyone who disagrees with you is a paid Russian spy.


Example of a troll is then set/contained within this above statement.

Disagreeing with your stance, as does most of the American public and our President it appears, does not make someone a troll part of a conspiracy to steal your matching socks. You are in a fantasy world. The American public is opposed to doing what you want, the President/Kerry are lukewarm on it and pushing for talks without Islamist preconditions, and two top candidates have basically we are better off with Assad. Sorry you are on the fringe terrorist supporting side of an issue.


SECOND challenge to your trolling... with the initially secret Russian Syrian unrestricted SOFA signed in AUGUST and WHEN did Putin start bombing and WHAT is his true intent in Syria??....the destruction of any and all opposition to Assad that could be a future problem for his SOFA.

As I said there is nothing illegal about him blowing to bits the other anti-Assad groups (which includes your AQ buddies).


Again highly suggest you reread the entire Ukrainian 2014-2015 and now 2016 threads to fully understand the term "weaponization of information"...

If it is pages of you responding to your own rants with more rants about Russian circus midgets stealing your bodily fluids, I'll pass.


AND if in fact he is a "true American" then one would think he would be interested in Putin killing them as well as they have a ton of "US blood on their hands"...but certainly not in having Putin working with them as that would then mean Putin approved of them killing Americans in the past....

If a group of Shia terrorists slit the throats of Sunni terrorists (who rammed airliners into the towers/are brigaded with them) I am amazingly indifferent. I am safer with a Putin/Assad/Iran win than a win by the anti-Assad forces.

Dude you cheer-lead for AQ, that's like no-fly list zone crazy.


Using the Putin definition of what a "terrorist is" would make the large number of US militias in fact "terrorists".

Well we finally cracked down on those idiots. And had you watched the coverage there was outrage those guys were not being called terrorists.


Remember he basically admitted this with his comment on the 132 killed in Paris with a massive outcry and no one says anything if 169 are killed by Putin in a single day...and that day after day...meaning he accepts that French civilians are better than Syrian civilians or taking it a step further dead Christians outweigh dead Muslims....but he will not go that far.....as that is in fact racist...it is not in what he says..it is how the words he uses says what he wants to say.

It's not racist in the least. Poor play of the race card. Though with the misspelling and mocking of the Presidents name, I think you guys might want to check your own privilege.


There is a very old US saying and it is racist....." a good Indian is a dead Indian......"

"The only good Indian is a dead one/Indian" - at least get the expression correct, even though your usage here is wrong.


BUT WAIT Putin in his UNGA speech "claimed" to want to destroy IS and that was why he was in Syria....

He is free to attack other groups in support of Assad. Nothing illegal or immoral about bombing the IF/MB/JAN/FSA as well. Net gain to be honest.


BUT since you are a troller you fully understand that this is just Russian camouflage as Putin knows aid will never make it in thus he can continue his bombing of the Assad opposition ALL the while arguing in front a camera...see they are setting "pre conditions"....BTW Obama even uses this argument so where is the difference between say Putin and Obama's strategies in Syria?...Putin has one and Obama has none.

So I guess Obama is also a paid Russian troll. Saying "we won't talk unless Russia/Assad/Iran seriously and potentially cripplingly limit their operations" is a precondition. They know it won't be agreed to as a precondition for these talks, they simply don't want to take part in the talks which is why it is rumored Kerry had to threaten them.


So while Putin is "killing Sunni terrorists for the West" the known Shia terrorists are being over looked......right??

Run with AQ and people are going to rank your side below Hezbollah. Amazing.


"Thus no genocide is being committed"...."just good ole fashion killing of terrorists"......and if stupid people get in the way it is their fault...his logical thought pattern to its conclusion.

Fault of the terrorists who hide among them/the people that hang out around them. Seeing as the SOHR's Pallywood style accounting puts Putin at 1380 civilians killed (ignoring that 60% or so of those are adult men and probably not all non-combatants) to 2198 terrorists. Surprisingly despite using 1960-1970s bombing tech and not being anywhere near as concerned about Human Rights backlash as we in the west are; Putin has managed to kill far more terrorists than alleged civilians based on pro-Islamist sources.

=========

If the Obama administration wants the Syrian opposition to risk whatever positive standing it may have inside Syria for the sake of a diplomatic due diligence exercise aimed at proving to the world that which is already known—that the Assad regime, Russia, and Iran have no interest in genuine Syrian political transition—then it will have to sit with the opposition and spell out what it intends to do to protect Syrian civilians once the exercise has run its course. The course itself need not be lengthy. If the bombings, sieges, and mass incarcerations continue, there is nothing to discus

Thankfully little will and no public pressure in the US for that.


The Syrian opposition is, to be sure, organizationally challenged. It is fractious. It cannot defeat Iran, Russia, and the regime inside Syria. Its ability to protect its own constituents is very limited.

So they aren't going to win.


If airdropped tomorrow onto a welcoming Damascus it might, while eschewing collective punishment and mass murder, still prove lacking in governing skills.

LOL.


But this oft-reviled opposition wants Assad—an asset for ISIL and a tool of Hezbollah—gone. Is this not a basis for a close relationship with Washington? Are these people neither worth cultivating nor treating with respect?

Not at all, and of course he down plays the whole these guys are allied with AQ/MB angle. The fact the opposition is full of Islamists and AQ supports/allies has to go unmentioned or else he would admit his cause was bankrupt and unpopular.

OUTLAW 09
02-01-2016, 08:03 AM
I do respond. I take each one of your points to the woodshed. I think you are either paid by the post (hopefully you monetize this) or live in a well padded room.

.
4. Pointed out the US/US public is not on board to go fight Assad to put those clowns in power.
5. You support JAN.
6. I believe we are safer with Assad in power. Several Presidential candidates back that position. And it's not an uncommon position on the street here.
7. I think the US should be striking JAN/IF forces and anyone they are brigaded with.
8. Obama/Kerry also consider those to be preconditions on talks and had to threaten our little Islamists to show up.
9. Now everyone who doesn't agree with you is a racist.

Not sure what is ducking or trolling on my end. On yours you rant and complain that Russian agents are raiding your fridge, and call me a troll but your genocide argument is a dud, you new racism argument holds no water, and basically you are on the fringe side of an issue.



I think you live in a ideologically protected world where anyone who disagrees with you is a paid Russian spy.



Disagreeing with your stance, as does most of the American public and our President it appears, does not make someone a troll part of a conspiracy to steal your matching socks. You are in a fantasy world. The American public is opposed to doing what you want, the President/Kerry are lukewarm on it and pushing for talks without Islamist preconditions, and two top candidates have basically we are better off with Assad. Sorry you are on the fringe terrorist supporting side of an issue.



As I said there is nothing illegal about him blowing to bits the other anti-Assad groups (which includes your AQ buddies).



If it is pages of you responding to your own rants with more rants about Russian circus midgets stealing your bodily fluids, I'll pass.



If a group of Shia terrorists slit the throats of Sunni terrorists (who rammed airliners into the towers/are brigaded with them) I am amazingly indifferent. I am safer with a Putin/Assad/Iran win than a win by the anti-Assad forces.

Dude you cheer-lead for AQ, that's like no-fly list zone crazy.



It's not racist in the least. Poor play of the race card. Though with the misspelling and mocking of the Presidents name, I think you guys might want to check your own privilege.



"The only good Indian is a dead one/Indian" - at least get the expression correct, even though your usage here is wrong.





So I guess Obama is also a paid Russian troll. Saying "we won't talk unless Russia/Assad/Iran seriously and potentially cripplingly limit their operations" is a precondition. They know it won't be agreed to as a precondition for these talks, they simply don't want to take part in the talks which is why it is rumored Kerry had to threaten them.



Run with AQ and people are going to rank your side below Hezbollah. Amazing.


Fault of the terrorists who hide among them/the people that hang out around them. Seeing as the SOHR's Pallywood style accounting puts Putin at 1380 civilians killed (ignoring that 60% or so of those are adult men and probably not all non-combatants) to 2198 terrorists. Surprisingly despite using 1960-1970s bombing tech and not being anywhere near as concerned about Human Rights backlash as we in the west are; Putin has managed to kill far more terrorists than alleged civilians based on pro-Islamist sources.

=========


Thankfully little will and no public pressure in the US for that.



So they aren't going to win.



LOL.



Not at all, and of course he down plays the whole these guys are allied with AQ/MB angle. The fact the opposition is full of Islamists and AQ supports/allies has to go unmentioned or else he would admit his cause was bankrupt and unpopular.

1. Dealt with your genocide lie.
2. Pointed out correctly that Putin is free to bomb other armed groups.
3. Pointed out correctly Putin has killed more terrorists/Islamists than civilians by a wide margin

He is free to attack other groups in support of Assad. Nothing illegal or immoral about bombing the IF/MB/JAN/FSA as well. Net gain to be honest.

Run with AQ and people are going to rank your side below Hezbollah. Amazing

Well we finally cracked down on those idiots. And had you watched the coverage there was outrage those guys were not being called terrorists.


Russian troll and or just a poorly uninformed Trump voter or maybe both???

Why do I say that...the comment on Hezbollah indicates you have absolutely no understanding of and or no knowledge of ME politics, the difference say between a secularist, a Salafist and or jihadi nor did you serve a single day in the Army in Iraq and or AFG.

Why is that...then you would have fully understood my comment "blood on the hands" in reference to the Iraqi Hezbollah KB.....

AND this further indicates that KH has killed and or wounded American military in full support of Iran...why do I say that...if you had served in Iraq you would be intimately familiar with the term EFP....well all the EFP parts were made and smuggled into Iraq for their use against US military BY no other than the IRGC....ALSO a major player in Syria ....

So again if we revisit say JaN that you place in the same grouping as IS/AQ and want they all killed.....just as Putin/Assad does.....

UP TO TODAY 1 Feb 2016 JaN has not killed a single American and has no US "blood on their hands".

BTW check what "blood on their hands" means in the Koran and in Arabic until then..... it is a waste of time to deal with a troller with little to no knowledge of the subject he claims to be knowledgeable in .

Anyone can cut and paste critic...any one...

AND yes I am getting monetized by the thousands of Euros....and just what does Russia pay you BTW??

Genocide.. and "complicit" .....remember I told you to check Websters as you were supposedly riding the silver line which you do not do BTW......


The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:


1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."


Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.


Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide (For full text click here)
"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:


(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide. "

It is a crime to plan or incite genocide, even before killing starts, and to aid or abet genocide: Criminal acts include conspiracy, direct and public incitement, attempts to commit genocide, and complicity in genocide.
Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:

Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.

Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.

Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.

Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation.

Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years.

Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence.

The law protects four groups - national, ethnical, racial or religious groups.

A national group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by a common country of nationality or national origin.

An ethnical group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common cultural traditions, language or heritage.

A racial group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by physical characteristics.

A religious group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common religious creeds, beliefs, doctrines, practices, or rituals


mwe12... my friend and what is occurring in Syria "ain't genocide...get real my friend".....

OUTLAW 09
02-01-2016, 08:23 AM
mwe12......here is the Websters definition of "complicit" which you were asked to look up on the silver line that you do not ride......

act of helping to commit a crime or do wrong in some way

NOW if you agree and you actually must agree..Obama gets a security briefing every morning...a summary of global events....and the US IC literally "sees and hears everything" 24 X 7 X 365 in a grouping called "Indications and Warnings"......

So now convince me that you are fully knowledgeable of the IC world....which BTW you are not...they have been confirming the use of chemical gas against Syrians specifically anyone who disagrees with Assad and now Putin, they have seen and confirmed the indiscriminate use of barrel bombs again with chlorine yesterday BTW, they have seen and confirmed the use of starvation, they have seen and confirmed the indiscriminate killing of civilians by air strikes and the indiscriminate destruction of critical civilian infrastucture.

SO if the US President physically "knows all of this" and if you deny he does not then the US is in serious trouble......if he knows all of this AND yet undertakes nothing......absolutely nothing......no public statements, nor interviews on the subject, no international press conference, no UNSC demanded meetings on the subject, no direct phone calls to Putin other than the lame Kerry "asking" pretty please for Russian FM Lavrov to end the bombings.....

WHEN legally he falls under the 1948 Convention for "complicity" and is liable for war crimes....even if he does nothing...

BUT WAIT he is a Nobel Peace Prize winner...so he knows international humanitarian law already...thus he really is "complicit" AND he is a lawyer from the blue ribbon universities so he fully understands the word "complicit"..

Trolling is easy, critic is easy, cut and paste is easy...... being an American outside the US is great as it gives you a total different look on life other than the Trump view........

BTW there I fly easily to the US...why I have proven my "loyalty" to the US more times than you have had birthdays......and that my friend sits deep in the computers....getting the computers to change that fact...very hard.

So get off the critic of being un-American...we had that phase in the US in the 50s...and where did it get the US but again you would not know that as you where not born in those times??

But again you troll and that is easy to prove and you just keep on doing it......reminds me of a former SWJ commenter mirhond who has not been around awhile...kind of miss him as he would at least post photos.

If you check your profile and comments..and compare it to his profile and comments..no basic difference is there....??

OUTLAW 09
02-01-2016, 08:46 AM
I do respond. I take each one of your points to the woodshed. I think you are either paid by the post (hopefully you monetize this) or live in a well padded room.

1. Dealt with your genocide lie.
2. Pointed out correctly that Putin is free to bomb other armed groups.
3. Pointed out correctly Putin has killed more terrorists/Islamists than civilians by a wide margin.
4. Pointed out the US/US public is not on board to go fight Assad to put those clowns in power.
5. You support JAN.
6. I believe we are safer with Assad in power. Several Presidential candidates back that position. And it's not an uncommon position on the street here.
7. I think the US should be striking JAN/IF forces and anyone they are brigaded with.
8. Obama/Kerry also consider those to be preconditions on talks and had to threaten our little Islamists to show up.
9. Now everyone who doesn't agree with you is a racist.

Not sure what is ducking or trolling on my end. On yours you rant and complain that Russian agents are raiding your fridge, and call me a troll but your genocide argument is a dud, you new racism argument holds no water, and basically you are on the fringe side of an issue.



I think you live in a ideologically protected world where anyone who disagrees with you is a paid Russian spy.



Disagreeing with your stance, as does most of the American public and our President it appears, does not make someone a troll part of a conspiracy to steal your matching socks. You are in a fantasy world. The American public is opposed to doing what you want, the President/Kerry are lukewarm on it and pushing for talks without Islamist preconditions, and two top candidates have basically we are better off with Assad. Sorry you are on the fringe terrorist supporting side of an issue.



As I said there is nothing illegal about him blowing to bits the other anti-Assad groups (which includes your AQ buddies).



If it is pages of you responding to your own rants with more rants about Russian circus midgets stealing your bodily fluids, I'll pass.



If a group of Shia terrorists slit the throats of Sunni terrorists (who rammed airliners into the towers/are brigaded with them) I am amazingly indifferent. I am safer with a Putin/Assad/Iran win than a win by the anti-Assad forces.

Dude you cheer-lead for AQ, that's like no-fly list zone crazy.



Well we finally cracked down on those idiots. And had you watched the coverage there was outrage those guys were not being called terrorists.



It's not racist in the least. Poor play of the race card. Though with the misspelling and mocking of the Presidents name, I think you guys might want to check your own privilege.



"The only good Indian is a dead one/Indian" - at least get the expression correct, even though your usage here is wrong.



He is free to attack other groups in support of Assad. Nothing illegal or immoral about bombing the IF/MB/JAN/FSA as well. Net gain to be honest.



So I guess Obama is also a paid Russian troll. Saying "we won't talk unless Russia/Assad/Iran seriously and potentially cripplingly limit their operations" is a precondition. They know it won't be agreed to as a precondition for these talks, they simply don't want to take part in the talks which is why it is rumored Kerry had to threaten them.



Run with AQ and people are going to rank your side below Hezbollah. Amazing.



Fault of the terrorists who hide among them/the people that hang out around them. Seeing as the SOHR's Pallywood style accounting puts Putin at 1380 civilians killed (ignoring that 60% or so of those are adult men and probably not all non-combatants) to 2198 terrorists. Surprisingly despite using 1960-1970s bombing tech and not being anywhere near as concerned about Human Rights backlash as we in the west are; Putin has managed to kill far more terrorists than alleged civilians based on pro-Islamist sources.

=========


Thankfully little will and no public pressure in the US for that.



So they aren't going to win.



LOL.



Not at all, and of course he down plays the whole these guys are allied with AQ/MB angle. The fact the opposition is full of Islamists and AQ supports/allies has to go unmentioned or else he would admit his cause was bankrupt and unpopular.

Let's see your math...right now three different Syrian sources are giving between 1400-2100 killed civilians in just over 100 days...at this Russian rate we will have say approximately 8000 killed in a year.

VS the Russian killed terrorist numbers of say 2000 plus as you state.......and you say that is a raving success rate in over 14,000 air sorties...

The US led effort has killed a confirmed 25,000 and the number of civilians killed as "collateral damage" is far far far far far less that the current Russian killed rate of say 1400 on the low end. AND the US is punishing SOF members for accidently targeting a hospital...97 have been hit by Russia in over 100 days and no one is punished......

Let's see all US led air s rikes are cleanly and clearly targeting IS.

Let's see...right now by bellingcat 97% of those 14,000 sorties have been not against IS BUT against anyone who fights against Assad....

AND when IS attacks anti Assad forces the Russian fly CAS for them...care to explain that??? OR when anti Assad forces attack IS the Russians also fly CAS for them........wonder why

Care to explain the difference in more than a cut and past one sentence....

Awaiting your response to this....
How is that then a raving success by the Putin AF????

BTW the Russian MoD much as you do....... criticized the US for flying fewer sorties.....BUT wait fewer sorties more killed more IS vs the Russian highly precise air strikes...claimed repeatedly by the Russian MoD led to far far fewer IS killed...wonder why is that is??

OUTLAW 09
02-01-2016, 09:05 AM
mwe12...now that you have a clean and concise definition of "genocide and complicit"....

Genocide.........???

AND what about that so called Obama "red line" in the use of chemical attacks?

Video...
Footage
#Assad used GAS vs. rebels in Muadamiyat during the #GenevaPeaceTalks yesterday
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1T4AWKtoHU …
Barrel bombs used and barrel bombs loaded with chlorine......were used as a mix.

78 killed and over 100 injured....ALL civilians...not a single fighter among the group...BTW...

AND that is not "genocide" by international law?

mwe12
02-02-2016, 01:19 AM
Barrel bombs used and barrel bombs loaded with chlorine......were used as a mix.

Nice to see Pallywood at work.


AND that is not "genocide" by international law?

Nope.


AND when IS attacks anti Assad forces the Russian fly CAS for them...care to explain that??? OR when anti Assad forces attack IS the Russians also fly CAS for them........wonder why

They are not flying CAS for ISIS. Russia is killing both ISIS and JAN/FSA/IF. Dropping bombs on one side or the other when they are fighting each other is totally above board. The trash taking itself out.


Let's see all US led air s rikes are cleanly and clearly targeting IS.

And Russia is clubbing all the anti-Assad groups with cluster bombs and 1000lb bombs, interesting division of labor. Nothing saying in the law saying that you have to use guided weapons. Rather cheaper from an accounting standpoint to level the building where terrorists are meeting with 1000lb bombs and ballistic missiles than to be all that worried over the fate of the person making coffee for them.


Let's see...right now by bellingcat 97% of those 14,000 sorties have been not against IS BUT against anyone who fights against Assad....

And the SOHR, another anti-regime source, puts it at 965 ISIS and 1233 non-ISIS terrorists, even if you assume all the alleged civilians were with JAN/IF/FSA/whoever that's still not 97%. It does sound better I guess if one is crying over poor-AQ to say Russia is picking on them and the Muslim Brotherhood.


The US led effort has killed a confirmed 25,000 and the number of civilians killed as "collateral damage" is far far far far far less that the current Russian killed rate of say 1400 on the low end. AND the US is punishing SOF members for accidently targeting a hospital...97 have been hit by Russia in over 100 days and no one is punished......

Different equipment, different doctrine on usage of heavy weapons in urban areas and different public back home. Just so happens in this case the terrorists are dealing with a nation which is prepared to flatten houses they are meeting in, regardless of the risk to people serving dinner.


SO if the US President physically "knows all of this" and if you deny he does not then the US is in serious trouble......if he knows all of this AND yet undertakes nothing......absolutely nothing......no public statements, nor interviews on the subject, no international press conference, no UNSC demanded meetings on the subject, no direct phone calls to Putin other than the lame Kerry "asking" pretty please for Russian FM Lavrov to end the bombings.....

The US has expressed alarm.

Thankfully we as a nation are not required to do more, nor do the voters wish to ride to the aid of a band heavily made up of the same types of terrorists we lost civil liberties over. Wasn't public support when Assad allegedly used chemical weapons and sure isn't now with a Russian air group blasting terrorists.


WHEN legally he falls under the 1948 Convention for "complicity" and is liable for war crimes....even if he does nothing...

Nope. Our leadership would be fine legally if they star around eating ice cream and watched the VKS airstrikes and made explosion noises while watching the impact.


mwe12... my friend and what is occurring in Syria "ain't genocide...get real my friend".....

It's a civil war, where one side holds up among the civilian population and the other doesn't mind the bad press in getting at the rebels and their infrastructure, then throw in one-off massacres by both sides and this is not a genocide by any stretch. This isn't Rwanda or Nazi Germany. The term genocide gets so wildly overused it runs the risk of losing any meaning.


Trolling is easy, critic is easy, cut and paste is easy...... being an American outside the US is great as it gives you a total different look on life other than the Trump view........

I'll keep my American view on stuff thank you. You should probably come back and talk to some actual Americans, you are out of step with the public on everything from supporting AQ to wanting America to put Islamists into power. As I said, enjoy being on the losing side.


So again if we revisit say JaN that you place in the same grouping as IS/AQ and want they all killed.....just as Putin/Assad does.....

JAN is in that grouping.


UP TO TODAY 1 Feb 2016 JaN has not killed a single American and has no US "blood on their hands".

They are part of AQ. That's quite enough. Outed yourself for supporting a group which murdered three-thousand Americans.

It's a shame and a disservice to the victims that we are not blasting those "crazy JAN kids" and their allies to bits.


If you check your profile and comments..and compare it to his profile and comments..no basic difference is there....??

Thanks but no thanks.


AND yes I am getting monetized by the thousands of Euros....and just what does Russia pay you BTW??

:rolleyes: - explains a lot.


BTW there I fly easily to the US...why I have proven my "loyalty" to the US more times than you have had birthdays......and that my friend sits deep in the computers....getting the computers to change that fact...very hard.

In the future tell the customs people or airplane passengers how great of guys JAN are. Bottom line it's past a fringe position.

Years of basically one-sided propaganda, which is still ongoing, about how great of guys these terrorist are (even the idiotic cat story) and covering up for their AQ links, and still the public doesn't want to help the take power or even take in economic migrants. Really a remarkable case of the intended beneficiary of the propaganda being so rotten that AJ and the MSM couldn't cover it from the public.

OUTLAW 09
02-02-2016, 07:16 AM
Nice to see Pallywood at work.



Nope.



They are not flying CAS for ISIS. Russia is killing both ISIS and JAN/FSA/IF. Dropping bombs on one side or the other when they are fighting each other is totally above board. The trash taking itself out.



And Russia is clubbing all the anti-Assad groups with cluster bombs and 1000lb bombs, interesting division of labor. Nothing saying in the law saying that you have to use guided weapons. Rather cheaper from an accounting standpoint to level the building where terrorists are meeting with 1000lb bombs and ballistic missiles than to be all that worried over the fate of the person making coffee for them.



And the SOHR, another anti-regime source, puts it at 965 ISIS and 1233 non-ISIS terrorists, even if you assume all the alleged civilians were with JAN/IF/FSA/whoever that's still not 97%. It does sound better I guess if one is crying over poor-AQ to say Russia is picking on them and the Muslim Brotherhood.



Different equipment, different doctrine on usage of heavy weapons in urban areas and different public back home. Just so happens in this case the terrorists are dealing with a nation which is prepared to flatten houses they are meeting in, regardless of the risk to people serving dinner.



The US has expressed alarm.

Thankfully we as a nation are not required to do more, nor do the voters wish to ride to the aid of a band heavily made up of the same types of terrorists we lost civil liberties over. Wasn't public support when Assad allegedly used chemical weapons and sure isn't now with a Russian air group blasting terrorists.



Nope. Our leadership would be fine legally if they star around eating ice cream and watched the VKS airstrikes and made explosion noises while watching the impact.



It's a civil war, where one side holds up among the civilian population and the other doesn't mind the bad press in getting at the rebels and their infrastructure, then throw in one-off massacres by both sides and this is not a genocide by any stretch. This isn't Rwanda or Nazi Germany. The term genocide gets so wildly overused it runs the risk of losing any meaning.



I'll keep my American view on stuff thank you. You should probably come back and talk to some actual Americans, you are out of step with the public on everything from supporting AQ to wanting America to put Islamists into power. As I said, enjoy being on the losing side.



JAN is in that grouping.



They are part of AQ. That's quite enough. Outed yourself for supporting a group which murdered three-thousand Americans.

It's a shame and a disservice to the victims that we are not blasting those "crazy JAN kids" and their allies to bits.



Thanks but no thanks.



:rolleyes: - explains a lot.



In the future tell the customs people or airplane passengers how great of guys JAN are. Bottom line it's past a fringe position.

Years of basically one-sided propaganda, which is still ongoing, about how great of guys these terrorist are (even the idiotic cat story) and covering up for their AQ links, and still the public doesn't want to help the take power or even take in economic migrants. Really a remarkable case of the intended beneficiary of the propaganda being so rotten that AJ and the MSM couldn't cover it from the public.

mwe12.....you and 9/11...blinds you...nothing but cut and paste but true knowledge of the world around you is distinctly missing......reflects you never have physically participated in the so called war on terror......and or in the two wars that never needed to be fought that cost you and me 5T USDs and over 7K KIAs and ten of thousands wounded.

cut and paste, cut and paste.....nothing more nothing less.....waste of time to continue.

again trolling nothing else outside of platitudes.....

especially the following which actually reflects your true narrative.......

I'll keep my American view on stuff thank you. You should probably come back and talk to some actual Americans, you are out of step with the public on everything from supporting AQ to wanting America to put Islamists into power. As I said, enjoy being on the losing side.

some actual Americans.....when you have fought for the US in three of the last four wars and trained 44 BCT staffs many of them going to AFG the fourth war and when you have served the IC in multiple different places of this world in the name of the US and when you have been wounded defending the US...then my friend you can talk about who and or is not "American"

platitudes do not replace knowledge and experience and you are missing both.

that you do not see that is interesting to say the least.

last comment here as it is a waste of my time......as you absolutely know nothing of the ME......

OUTLAW 09
02-02-2016, 08:08 AM
mwe12...here is your largest deficit in this conversation and thus you are simply trolling.

When you can in detail explain to me in naturally more than one sentence what is a secular Muslim, what is a Salafist, and more importantly what is a Takfirist...and more importantly where do they touch each other and how do they cross over each other...BTW using theKoran and then what is their respective views on the Sunni form of government for each of them.

Then taking that approach apply it to the current Syrian Sunni environment ...especially the JaN side of the house which yesterday was approached by the opposition and suggested they abandon AQ.

Then and only then can you actually get into a conversation...anything else is platitudes and trolling....

Here is your second problem...you were born way past the era of this statement...."one mans' terrorist is another man's freedom fighter......" THEN apply that to the three Islamic religious directions.

Once you work your way through that then we can turn to Shiaism and their "Islamic Revolutionary" theology.

BUT more important is the reading of say at least three critical studies on Syria and the geo political importance for the entire ME.

OUTLAW 09
02-02-2016, 08:27 AM
mwe12...think about this statement as it pertains to your comments.....

"Religious radicals come in all shapes, colors and sizes these days and they all "claim God"........."

I just heard Ted Cruz's first words on his Iowa caucus win: "To God goes the glory."
That's Republican mwe12 for "Allahu Akbar!"

BTW if you had been paying attention ......all three of the great religions build on each other and take from each other......so are Ted Cruz Republicans "closet Islamists".....maybe......

mwe12
02-02-2016, 11:59 AM
some actual Americans.....when you have fought for the US in three of the last four wars and trained 44 BCT staffs many of them going to AFG the fourth war and when you have served the IC in multiple different places of this world in the name of the US and when you have been wounded defending the US...then my friend you can talk about who and or is not "American"

None of that changes the fact that JAN is a part of AQ. Sorry bro whatever life experience you claim to have doesn't transform AQ and their allies into a bunch of good guys. Serious you spend hours a day on the internet railing about how that coward Obama needs to save a bunch of terrorists from evil Putin.

When you support JAN as being a bunch of sometimes crazy kids, congratulations you are on the permanent fringe. Cutting past all the high minded rants about civilians; you think JAN are a bunch of swell guys that America needs to help out.


mwe12.....you and 9/11...blinds you...nothing but cut and paste but true knowledge of the world around you is distinctly missing......reflects you never have physically participated in the so called war on terror......and or in the two wars that never needed to be fought that cost you and me 5T USDs and over 7K KIAs and ten of thousands wounded.

A deflection for the fact that you support JAN and other Islamist terrorist groups.

Well I guess if Pakistan can have "good" and "bad" Taliban you can have "good" and "not as good" members of AQ.


When you can in detail explain to me in naturally more than one sentence what is a secular Muslim, what is a Salafist, and more importantly what is a Takfirist...and more importantly where do they touch each other and how do they cross over each other...BTW using theKoran and then what is their respective views on the Sunni form of government for each of them.

On my way to the office please just post your stock explanation with randomly capitalized and bolded words explaining why the MB are really a bunch of great guys.

I just heard Ted Cruz's first words on his Iowa caucus win: "To God goes the glory."

And when he crashes airplanes into buildings and slits the throats of people of different religions solely because of their faith then you might start to explain to me that he is a great guy.


Then taking that approach apply it to the current Syrian Sunni environment ...especially the JaN side of the house which yesterday was approached by the opposition and suggested they abandon AQ.

They joined AQ and have stayed in it. An organization which murdered thousands of Americans one morning. They are brigaded with other the Islamists. That is quite enough.

No conspiracy of Russian agents here, your cause is just rotten. There is no genocide, Putin kills more terrorists than civilians, nothing in the law says Putin can't keep killing non-ISIS terrorists, the American people don't like the Syrian rebels, and you my friend cannot try to appeal to some expert status to justify saying America needs to ride to the rescue of AQ.

Putin has thankfully saved us from the "experts" who have failed us for generations by putting dumping his own nation into this quagmire.

Windows97
02-04-2016, 01:38 PM
When you can in detail explain to me in naturally more than one sentence what is a secular Muslim, what is a Salafist, and more importantly what is a Takfirist...and more importantly where do they touch each other and how do they cross over each other...BTW using theKoran and then what is their respective views on the Sunni form of government for each of them.

Then taking that approach apply it to the current Syrian Sunni environment ...especially the JaN side of the house which yesterday was approached by the opposition and suggested they abandon AQ.

So if the Nazis turned around and said "hey, you know what, the SS is a different organisation! Nothing to do with us!" You would accept their argument? What unites all the organisations you mention? Hair splitting over the minor tactical or political strands of their respective legitimating ideologies ignores the common wellspring.


Here is your second problem...you were born way past the era of this statement...."one mans' terrorist is another man's freedom fighter......" THEN apply that to the three Islamic religious directions.

What do you mean here? What do you mean by the three Islamic directions?


Once you work your way through that then we can turn to Shiaism and their "Islamic Revolutionary" theology..

Islam as a whole is best described as a revolutionary theology. Ithna ashari shia'ism of the official Iranian variety is the only one that adheres to a syncretistic fusion of third world liberation theology+marxism and traditional Shi'a narrative themes (thanks largely to Talk Shariati and Jala Ali-Ahmad). Ithna ashari Shi'a in Iraq (especially Najaf) do not traditionally follow the official discourse of Qom (I.e., the doctrine of Velayat-e-faqih, which many outside Iran actually consider a dangerous innovation) unless it is politically expedient. The other branch's of shi'ism such as the zaydi wouldn't even call themselves associates of the ithna ashari. So, again what the hell are you talking about?

When you stick to fact instead of hashtag ramblings you make sense. When you start ranting it looks like you've drunk the koolaid bub. Maybe try decaffeinated? Or camomile tea.

OUTLAW 09
02-04-2016, 02:25 PM
mwindows97 suddenly appears after registering in 2015 and 4 posts.....after mihond and mwe12 we seem to have three trolls in the SWJ database, anticipated actually more.

windows97..now that you have impressed me with you somewhat not so correct fro text book copied shia comments...try finally answering the comment what is the difference between secular, salafst and takfiri Sunni's...

and when you finish that explain to us the shia revolutionary islam of 1979 and the green crescent of 1979.

then let's discuss the recent 1979 revival of shiaism......meaning their definition of government vs the sunni definition of government

btw windows97 you also cut and past as does mwe12 so probably the same commenter just two different logons.......

OUTLAW 09
02-04-2016, 02:50 PM
mwindows97 suddenly appears after registering in 2015 and 4 posts.....after mihond and mwe12 we seem to have three trolls in the SWJ database, anticipated actually more.

windows97..now that you have impressed me with you somewhat not so correct fro text book copied shia comments...try finally answering the comment what is the difference between secular, salafst and takfiri Sunni's...

and when you finish that explain to us the shia revolutionary islam of 1979 and the green crescent of 1979.

then let's discuss the recent 1979 revival of shiaism......meaning their definition of government vs the sunni definition of government

btw windows97 you also cut and past as does mwe12 so probably the same commenter just two different logons.......

windows97 you seem to as did mwe12 and mirhond...you seem to ignore direct questions another indicator of a troll.

davidbfpo
02-04-2016, 04:43 PM
SWC does not tolerate "trolls" or "trollers" when they break our RoE. We are a reasonably broad mix of interests and views, which is one reason why so many people and members come here.

In the recent past I have acted to edit and remove content that is, simply, bad and wrong. Those actions have been accompanied by the use of polite requests via PM and if necessary use of official sanctions.

Recent posts here do not address the thread's purpose IMHO; it is 'Syria in 2016: an exchange on what to do'.

mwe12
02-04-2016, 07:20 PM
To the topic at hand.

We need to let Putin/Assad finish off these groups. They have a bit of momentum now. It is not a pretty campaign but wiping out these groups and preventing them having a nation to play Taliban 2.0 makes us safer than vainly hoping some secular democratic state appears inspite of the Turks, Qataris, KSA, and the IF/AQ. I hope this is where Obama is moving towards, with the terrorists blaming America for their loss, generally whining, and claiming we held up supplies.

We should provide no more TOWs, political support, or funding, and pressure the GCC to prevent manpads and heavy weapons. The anti Assad alliance is made up of people many of who share the same radical beliefs as AQ, and many those are members. The argument that we need to put terrorists in power or Sunnis will get more radical is silly. Our supposed allies have been supporting the local AQ chapter for sometime now, the group which killed three thousand Americans.

The rebels wanted nothing to do with the talks and used their rout to back out after creating preconditions they didn't have the leverage to demand.

If Putin is prepared to put cash on a barrel to cluster bomb terrorist groups than good, let him and Iran bleed money and lives. There is no public support here to rescue a bunch of terrorists that we have spent billions fighting ourselves and set up a massive and expensive bureaucracy to handle. They fight should to shoulder, suicide vest to TOW with AQ. If the media did a better job reporting, people would be horrified and who we partner with and of course why aren't we also bombing those same AQ fighters who collapsed under the Assadist assault. Despite all the bandwidth in oped pages and blogs used to push for war, the bald faced lies from the terrorists western supporters; still it's unpopular and thanks to Russia jumping in highly improbable.

Thankfully Obama has avoided getting us deeper in this mess. Shamefully we are even this involved.

Stripped away of hash tags about genocide, saying Russia is providing cas for ISIS, saying AQ are good guys, whining about Obama not stopping Russia; it's a coalition made up of Islamists and the terrorist exporting GCC/Turkey trying to put terrorists in charge and trying to drag America by the nose to make it all possible.

No trolling here, just disgusted by our support for terrorists, and their allies who we are expected to put into power and with the western cheerleaders calling for us to support these clowns and seemingly fight Russia.

Sent via cell phone.

davidbfpo
02-04-2016, 07:47 PM
mwe12,

Thank you for this American viewpoint.

Syria is sadly a mess and in effect could become a far larger Palestine-in-exile area, I don't think the title nation-state would apply. As we know the Palestinian people have a had a "raw deal" since 1947 from the outside world and their own leadership. Plus their recourse to terrorism was seen by many as a "first", especially long ago with passenger plane hijacking.

Civil wars are never easy to understand, let alone take action over. Except for those who feel very strongly they must do something, a coalition that is frankly horrible - to those Syrian people who remain in their country.

The recent migration out of the region to Western Europe, which is not all Syrian, is IMHO unlikely to reduce, let alone stop. As Jordan and Lebanon this week have stated - in BBC reports - they cannot absorb let alone properly cater for the influx. Which of course ignores how many Palestinians are resident, a good number still resident in "camps" which look like concrete suburbs.

ISIS is reportedly aghast at the move of thousands if not millions of fellow Muslims (excluding Shia) to Western Europe; hardly a message they can ignore or explain to those who live under their rule.

As for the o-so rich Gulf Arabs who currently appear very reluctant to provide humanitarian aid, let alone refuge - are far happier to donate money and weapons to make Syria worse.

I do wonder how the "ordinary (Arab) in the street" thinks. Who do they blame for the tragedy that is clearly happening?

Windows97
02-04-2016, 08:05 PM
1. windows97..now that you have impressed me with you somewhat not so correct fro text book copied shia comments...try finally answering the comment what is the difference between secular, salafst and takfiri Sunni's...

2. and when you finish that explain to us the shia revolutionary islam of 1979 and the green crescent of 1979.

3. Then let's discuss the recent 1979 revival of shiaism......meaning their definition of government vs the sunni definition of government

4. btw windows97 you also cut and past as does mwe12 so probably the same commenter just two different logons.......

... clarification of your statements is hardly trolling. It is good practice when discussing any half serious topic. If I don't know what you are talking about I cannot respond and whatever discourse we may conduct will be as mere ships passing in the night.

1. I have no idea what a secular Sunni is. Probably the same thing as a secular Jew or a secular Hindu. In other words an oxymoron. Salafis and takfiris are not mutually exclusive ontological categories or properties adhering to a group. A salafi can and often will declare that an opponent is a hypocrite or an apostate. The Muslim making that charge is thus a takfiri. After the first Islamic civil war under abu Bakr he often declared the tribe who turned their backs on him as apostates and thus he engaged in takfir. The same things occurred during the I'll fated tenure of Ali...hence Shiaism and the now extinct kharjirites. A Muslim making the charge of apostasy need not be a salfist, he or she could just be an ordinary Joe/Mohammed. But by doing so they are being takfiris. So, In sorry, but I don't really understand your point.

2. What exactly irks you about the Shi'a revolutionary moment in 1979 (which was, in fact, localised to Iran). The ousting of Pahlavi was accomplished by a rainbow group of disparate political forces. Khomeini lead one religious faction (of which he became its leader in exile and provided it with his legitimating ideology of velayat e faqih). The other was the traditionalist, quietist (non political) faction led by Ayatollah Shariatmadari who later died under suspicious circumstances IIRC. The only places where the Shi'a revolted were in Saudi Arabia and had virtually bugger all to do with Iran despite Saudi Arabia's attempt to paint it that way. Only Hizbollah, an Iranian proxy, follows the ideology of velyat e faqih. The idea of a Shi'a uprising is a general term that is inexact and explains nothing but may be useful polemically depending on your position visavis the Shi'a.

3. Extending this argument, what do you mean the Sunni doctrine of government vs the Shi'a doctrine of government? The so called Shi'a "theory" of government doesn't actually exist. There is a ithna ashari ideology of government typified and systemised by Khomeini's concept of velayat e faqih but if you mentioned it in Najaf they laugh you out of town. The Sunni believe in a limited form of elected dictatorship the only qualification being piety. Monarchs are tolerated (in an analogy of Kant's prescription against revolting against tyrants to preserve order and prevent anarchy) so long as they "enjoin the good and prohibit evil". For the Shi'a only the descendants of Ali are the lawful heirs to earthly government and in their absence they should either accept the rule of the jurisprudent (the regime position in Iran) or, in terms of the more traditionalist position (quietism) support anyone who ensures that Islamic law is upheld (similar to the sunni position with the proviso that clerical power is not impinged upon- he of the clerics original complaints against the Shah in 79). As for the Shi'a revival, it can actually be traced back to the mid sixties when Marxism-socialism was seen as an alien ideology by many people including the previously mentioned Ali Shariati especially in his book Red Shiism and jalal ali Ahmed's collected works. Many in the clergy saw a common cause with revolutionary groups. But then it gets complicated. Non Iranian regime Ithna Ashari Shi'a are awaiting the return of the twelfth occulted Imam in whom true legitimate wilaya rests. Zaydi Shi'a have Imams that fuse the concept of (weak) consent inherent in sunnism with that of divine bloodlines of the ithna ashari. But that's by the by...

4. I don't know why you feel the need to continually spout your professional qualifications as some " argument from authority". That authority being yourself your pronouncement thereby become inviolable. Is it that you don't like being told your are wrong? Or confused? Or unintelligible? Perhps your pervasive sense of inferiority compells you to continually state that you are more qualified experientially on this forum than anyone els. But that smacks of argument from authority. That authority being yourself. I have no need to cut and paste anything. Nor sir am I not a troll. Though you may well be. Humility is, though, a virtue you might want to cultivate.

Regards, W97

OUTLAW 09
02-05-2016, 06:58 AM
w97...again you do not seem to fully understand Iranian "Revolutionary Islam" driven really first by Khomeini and now by Khamenei.....AND it was not just limited to Iran as you stated. BTW the rumored replacement for Khamenei is considered by many to be a hardcore Khomeini V5 and that means a brutally conservative religious fanatic....TIED to "Revolutionary Islam".

If you had fully understood the "principles of government" espoused by Shia vs Sunni government concepts then you would have noticed the major shift started by Khomeini and company with the title of Supreme Leader signifying that shift.

If you had fully understood the Khomeini principle espoused under the term "Green Crescent" then you would have fully understood exactly why the KSA has been pushing back since 1978 against Iranian Shi'ism.

The "dislike" between Iran and KSA actually dates from 1978 a full year before Khomeini took power via a religious coup and then killed off any of those students and leftists that actually threw out the Shah...if you had fully understood the Shah overthrow.

If you had understood that period then you know that it was the KSA that warned both the CIA and the US political leadership that Khomeini's 5 cent audio tapes of his Friday's Prayers coming out of Paris was far more of a threat than anyone anticipated including the Shah's secret police the CIA trained SAVAK.

Back to the Green Crescent...which is the arch created by a line running from AFG through Iran, Iraq, Syria and landing in Lebanon and if you had understood the Lebanese civil war then you would have seen the 3000 "volunteer RGs" marching into Baalbek Valley with their Green flags waving to "support their brothers" then they did nothing but waited and today we have Hezbollah which if you fully understand them.....they are a terrorist grouping under US definitions.

BTW...trace the "Green Crescent countries" and then layer them over the "old Silk Road" you might be surprised that it is an identical match...AND then ask yourself WHY the sudden interest by the Chinese in the rebuilding of this "Silk Road" they have been talking about and which the Ukraine just sent a train over to test all the way to Peking AVOIDING crossing any territory called Russia so now the "old Silk Road" has a ME route and now a central eastern European branch. An interesting recreation of the old 1500/1600s trading routes.

But again you knew all of this...thus the KSA pushback against Iran is to isolate this "Green Crescent" as it surrounds KSA and is viewed by KSA as a direct threat to them.

THEN you would have fully understood the tie in to the use of Iranian of IRGC/QUD forces, Hezbollah units from Lebanon and Iraq, 35 Iraqi Shia militias AND naturally all those AFG recruited Shia mercenaries ALL of whom are now in Syrian and many of them dying in Aleppo over the last few days as cannon fodder making sure the land corridor to Hezbollah is maintained and expanded in the name of "Revolutionary Islam" and the Green Crescent.

So while you and mwe12 beat up on the "Sunni's" you conveniently forgot the "Shia" which have far more "US blood on their hands" as does IS..which has killed random US citizens/military personnel.....remember it was not IS that attacked on 9/11 and remember even AQ has disowned them.

THEN if you had know all of the above then you can fully understand the Obama "selling" of the "Iran Deal" to Congress and you as a way to "moderate" Iran...but have you seen any "Iranian moderation" in Syria?

Again the pointed question to you and mwe12...when did JaN ever and I mean the last say 100 years...when did JaN issue a threat against the US and then attack the US and or US citizens....actually never.

And since you know all of the above ...the offensive unleashed by Putin will now radicalize the FSA which is actually Syrian
and Syrian supported and moderate even further driving them closer to JaN and IS and the flow of weapons from now Turkey and KSA will increase to include MANPADs....WHY because the Obama WH and Kerry simply have no strategy for the ME or for that fact anywhere else and these two countries under pressure from the US have held them back...but since the utter Geneva failure of Kerry and now due to the lack of total US creditability to fulfill anything they talk about these weapons will now flow.

If you had understood the concept of "radicalization steps of a civil society" then you would have seen this truck speeding directly at you...but Obama and Kerry appeared to not see the oncoming disaster OR what I suspect is closer to the truth...they do not care as he is out of office in less than 12 months.

Now disprove that......

BTW....IS has lost 25% of their territory taken in 2014, and had 25K killed by US air strikes but overall they have solidified their holdings in Syria and Iraq and have actually been increasing their manpower and their wealth built initially on oil has taken a hit they are still the wealthiest jihadi group in the world AND Russia is not destroying them at all in Syria....think about that for a moment. ALSO think about their ability "to project Islamic power" much as Putin is doing now in Syria...."power projection" was largely reserved for nation states not non state actors.....

Wars against AQ by the US since 2003 has actually increased the "influence and power of IS"...not the reverse.

So what is your solution...like mwe12 "just kill them all"......."ain't working" I am afraid.....

OUTLAW 09
02-05-2016, 07:47 AM
w97...again you do not seem to fully understand Iranian "Revolutionary Islam" driven really first by Khomeini and now by Khamenei.....AND it was not just limited to Iran as you stated. BTW the rumored replacement for Khamenei is considered by many to be a hardcore Khomeini V5 and that means a brutally conservative religious fanatic....TIED to "Revolutionary Islam".

If you had fully understood the "principles of government" espoused by Shia vs Sunni government concepts then you would have noticed the major shift started by Khomeini and company with the title of Supreme Leader signifying that shift.

If you had fully understood the Khomeini principle espoused under the term "Green Crescent" then you would have fully understood exactly why the KSA has been pushing back since 1978 against Iranian Shi'ism.

The "dislike" between Iran and KSA actually dates from 1978 a full year before Khomeini took power via a religious coup and then killed off any of those students and leftists that actually threw out the Shah...if you had fully understood the Shah overthrow.

If you had understood that period then you know that it was the KSA that warned both the CIA and the US political leadership that Khomeini's 5 cent audio tapes of his Friday's Prayers coming out of Paris was far more of a threat than anyone anticipated including the Shah's secret police the CIA trained SAVAK.

Back to the Green Crescent...which is the arch created by a line running from AFG through Iran, Iraq, Syria and landing in Lebanon and if you had understood the Lebanese civil war then you would have seen the 3000 "volunteer RGs" marching into Baalbek Valley with their Green flags waving to "support their brothers" then they did nothing but waited and today we have Hezbollah which if you fully understand them.....they are a terrorist grouping under US definitions.

BTW...trace the "Green Crescent countries" and then layer them over the "old Silk Road" you might be surprised that it is an identical match...AND then ask yourself WHY the sudden interest by the Chinese in the rebuilding of this "Silk Road" they have been talking about and which the Ukraine just sent a train over to test all the way to Peking AVOIDING crossing any territory called Russia so now the "old Silk Road" has a ME route and now a central eastern European branch. An interesting recreation of the old 1500/1600s trading routes.

But again you knew all of this...thus the KSA pushback against Iran is to isolate this "Green Crescent" as it surrounds KSA and is viewed by KSA as a direct threat to them.

THEN you would have fully understood the tie in to the use of Iranian of IRGC/QUD forces, Hezbollah units from Lebanon and Iraq, 35 Iraqi Shia militias AND naturally all those AFG recruited Shia mercenaries ALL of whom are now in Syrian and many of them dying in Aleppo over the last few days as cannon fodder making sure the land corridor to Hezbollah is maintained and expanded in the name of "Revolutionary Islam" and the Green Crescent.

So while you and mwe12 beat up on the "Sunni's" you conveniently forgot the "Shia" which have far more "US blood on their hands" as does IS..which has killed random US citizens/military personnel.....remember it was not IS that attacked on 9/11 and remember even AQ has disowned them.

THEN if you had know all of the above then you can fully understand the Obama "selling" of the "Iran Deal" to Congress and you as a way to "moderate" Iran...but have you seen any "Iranian moderation" in Syria?

Again the pointed question to you and mwe12...when did JaN ever and I mean the last say 100 years...when did JaN issue a threat against the US and then attack the US and or US citizens....actually never.

And since you know all of the above ...the offensive unleashed by Putin will now radicalize the FSA which is actually Syrian
and Syrian supported and moderate even further driving them closer to JaN and IS and the flow of weapons from now Turkey and KSA will increase to include MANPADs....WHY because the Obama WH and Kerry simply have no strategy for the ME or for that fact anywhere else and these two countries under pressure from the US have held them back...but since the utter Geneva failure of Kerry and now due to the lack of total US creditability to fulfill anything they talk about these weapons will now flow.

If you had understood the concept of "radicalization steps of a civil society" then you would have seen this truck speeding directly at you...but Obama and Kerry appeared to not see the oncoming disaster OR what I suspect is closer to the truth...they do not care as he is out of office in less than 12 months.

Now disprove that......

BTW....IS has lost 25% of their territory taken in 2014, and had 25K killed by US air strikes but overall they have solidified their holdings in Syria and Iraq and have actually been increasing their manpower and their wealth built initially on oil has taken a hit they are still the wealthiest jihadi group in the world AND Russia is not destroying them at all in Syria....think about that for a moment. ALSO think about their ability "to project Islamic power" much as Putin is doing now in Syria...."power projection" was largely reserved for nation states not non state actors.....

Wars against AQ by the US since 2003 has actually increased the "influence and power of IS"...not the reverse.

So what is your solution...like mwe12 "just kill them all"......."ain't working" I am afraid.....

w97/mwe12...will give you a provocative question for both to answer...

Is in fact the Obama ME strategy and I hate using the term strategy because there is none THE exact same thing that Putin's is for Syria.? Meaning leaving Assad in power and basically not damaging/destroying Islamic State.

AND that this attempt by the US to copy Putin's FP has badly damaged US FP/standing in Europe and the ME?

Rebels say the U.S. cut their weapons pre-Geneva while Assad/Russia ramped up Aleppo attacks
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/syrian-rebels-are-losing-aleppo-and-perhaps-also-the-war/2016/02/04/94e10012-cb51-11e5-b9ab-26591104bb19_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_syria-850pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory …
pic.twitter.com/LmC67qCzcX

I could actually link you to the press conference where Kerry stated publicly that "he had not threatened the HNC...AND they must have misinterpreted him"....BUT I know since you are following Syria you already know this.

Another provocative comment....Kerry lies just about as often as does his Russian FM counterpart Lavrov....true or false....?

Windows97
02-05-2016, 11:31 AM
...how can anyone have a reasoned debate with someone who cherry picks (note you've thrown a lot of information I have already stated back at me in accusation that I have limited it!), dissimulates, and argues from petition principii. There was a reason I left the nut house that the SWC has become a few years ago. So, I shall follow the advice of a Shi'a Imam. All the best bub, I hope you get back on your meds before you run for president.

mwe12
02-05-2016, 12:10 PM
I do wonder how the "ordinary (Arab) in the street" thinks. Who do they blame for the tragedy that is clearly happening?

America will take the blame for not showing up and invading. Seeing as people on this forum are already blaming the US for it.


As for the o-so rich Gulf Arabs who currently appear very reluctant to provide humanitarian aid, let alone refuge - are far happier to donate money and weapons to make Syria worse.

What I find insane about this situation is that our "allies" are the ones pushing for the same radicals who we set up the huge surveillance state to protect ourselves from. We are deluged daily with bizarre news stories that somehow we are "letting" these horrible states down by not bombing Assad ourselves to put in guys we consider to be terrorists.

=======

Again the pointed question to you and mwe12...when did JaN ever and I mean the last say 100 years...when did JaN issue a threat against the US and then attack the US and or US citizens....actually never.

At the moment they are busy getting bombed. JAN is part of AQ, you may cheerlead for them all you wish but at the end of the day they are part of the organization that murdered three thousand Americans in a single day (ignoring those who have died from various aliments caused by exposure) and are the cause of this whole global war on terrorism. And JAN is a part of the rebel alliance and fights alongside other bands of merry terrorists.

That you like them so much is a bit disturbing, but it does not change the fact they are terrorists and that they are part of AQ and each one Russia kills is a good thing.


Rebels say the U.S. cut their weapons pre-Geneva while Assad/Russia ramped up Aleppo attacks

Great and hopefully we keep the tap closed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/syrian-rebels-are-losing-aleppo-and-perhaps-also-the-war/2016/02/04/94e10012-cb51-11e5-b9ab-26591104bb19_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_syria-850pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

Rebel fighters sounded desperate as they described enduring more than 200 airstrikes in the past 24 hours alone. Commanders from a range of rebel groups, from moderates to the al-Qaeda-affiliated Jabhat al-Nusra, issued urgent appeals for reinforcements from other parts of the country.

Perfect chance to kill some AQ...


And since you know all of the above ...the offensive unleashed by Putin will now radicalize the FSA which is actually Syrian

Guys who fight side by side with terrorists might drop the facade? Then I assume it is time to preemptively drone strike them ourselves; seeing as you say beneath every FSA member is a JAN/IS/IF member ready to pop out.

I guess the only good anti-Assad terrorist is a dead one.


and Syrian supported and moderate even further driving them closer to JaN and IS and the flow of weapons from now Turkey and KSA will increase to include MANPADs....WHY because the Obama WH and Kerry simply have no strategy for the ME or for that fact anywhere else and these two countries under pressure from the US have held them back...but since the utter Geneva failure of Kerry and now due to the lack of total US creditability to fulfill anything they talk about these weapons will now flow.

So the poor terrorist exporting states will have to give heavier weapons to terrorists because evil Obama hasn't gotten them control of Damascus, poor bastards.

Shame we won't cruise missile the everyone's favorite slave labor site for funneling weapons and money to terrorists.


BTW....IS has lost 25% of their territory taken in 2014, and had 25K killed by US air strikes but overall they have solidified their holdings in Syria and Iraq and have actually been increasing their manpower and their wealth built initially on oil has taken a hit they are still the wealthiest jihadi group in the world AND Russia is not destroying them at all in Syria....think about that for a moment. ALSO think about their ability "to project Islamic power" much as Putin is doing now in Syria...."power projection" was largely reserved for nation states not non state actors.....

Be well served to stand back and allow the SAA and their militias, after they are through with the other terrorists, to march on IS (while Iraq and its militias push from the other direction) and snuff/barrel bomb them out. The Assad/Putin/IRGC/Iraq express are the only realistic hope to finish off ISIS on the ground.

============
Why on earth do you respond to your own posts BTW?

OUTLAW 09
02-05-2016, 01:16 PM
America will take the blame for not showing up and invading. Seeing as people on this forum are already blaming the US for it.



What I find insane about this situation is that our "allies" are the ones pushing for the same radicals who we set up the huge surveillance state to protect ourselves from. We are deluged daily with bizarre news stories that somehow we are "letting" these horrible states down by not bombing Assad ourselves to put in guys we consider to be terrorists.

=======


At the moment they are busy getting bombed. JAN is part of AQ, you may cheerlead for them all you wish but at the end of the day they are part of the organization that murdered three thousand Americans in a single day (ignoring those who have died from various aliments caused by exposure) and are the cause of this whole global war on terrorism. And JAN is a part of the rebel alliance and fights alongside other bands of merry terrorists.

That you like them so much is a bit disturbing, but it does not change the fact they are terrorists and that they are part of AQ and each one Russia kills is a good thing.



Great and hopefully we keep the tap closed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/syrian-rebels-are-losing-aleppo-and-perhaps-also-the-war/2016/02/04/94e10012-cb51-11e5-b9ab-26591104bb19_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_syria-850pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory


Perfect chance to kill some AQ...



Guys who fight side by side with terrorists might drop the facade? Then I assume it is time to preemptively drone strike them ourselves; seeing as you say beneath every FSA member is a JAN/IS/IF member ready to pop out.

I guess the only good anti-Assad terrorist is a dead one.



So the poor terrorist exporting states will have to give heavier weapons to terrorists because evil Obama hasn't gotten them control of Damascus, poor bastards.

Shame we won't cruise missile the everyone's favorite slave labor site for funneling weapons and money to terrorists.



Be well served to stand back and allow the SAA and their militias, after they are through with the other terrorists, to march on IS (while Iraq and its militias push from the other direction) and snuff/barrel bomb them out. The Assad/Putin/IRGC/Iraq express are the only realistic hope to finish off ISIS on the ground.

============
Why on earth do you respond to your own posts BTW?

again nothing and or nothing else other than cut and paste trolling and if one reads this mwe12 response outside of being a critic of anything that does not match your personal beliefs which any troll can do...not much else there than RW ranting against Sunni's missing somehow the Shia terrorism side.

mwe12 must have been too young for the Beirut barracks and or to old/missed the entire Iraqi war as Shia terrorists killed far more US service members than did the Sunni insurgents including QJBR, not sure mwe12 even knows who QJBR is?

i keep asking him to prove just how JaN has threatened the US and or killed US citizens...which they have not but that does not matter when your only argument is "to kill them all as they are Muslims thus a threat to the US".

see actually trolling is easy as all you have to do is cut and paste, critique and not say much...any five year old can do that these days as they carry a smart phone and can google......

Trump 101............"make them wear yellow crescents".....

waste of time with this troll......

davidbfpo
02-05-2016, 01:56 PM
As a Moderator I think the life of this thread has reached a limit. It is closed forthwith.

We should be debating 'what to do' with Syria, this exchange is not that.

mwe12
02-06-2016, 09:00 AM
Islamist and non-Islamist mainstream rebels — to the surprise of those who have derided their performance, let alone their existence — repelled the offensive at the time.

oooo, mainstream rebels like the IF/MB.


Indeed, Moscow and the Syrian regime are content to see the United States bear the lion’s share of the effort against the jihadi monster in the east, instead concentrating on mowing through the mainstream rebellion in western Syr

As they are still in a state of rebellion and attacking government targets I am not seeing what the outrage is.


Turkey’s shooting down of a Russian military aircraft that crossed its airspace in November backfired: Moscow vengefully directed its firepower on Turkey’s rebel friends across Idlib and Aleppo provinces.

Funny how that worked out.


Moscow also courted Syria’s Kurds, who found a new partner to play off the United States in their complex relations with Washington. And Russia has agreed to a temporary accommodation of Israel’s interests in southern Syria.

Israel and the "Kurds" the only two groups the public likes over there.


Inside Syria, and despite the polite wishes of Secretary of State John Kerry, the overwhelming majority of Russian strikes have hit non-Islamic State (IS) fighters.

Even the SOHR has stated Russia has killed hundreds upon hundreds of IS fighters; and it's an interesting case of academic dishonesty when he ignores the presence of AQ and other radical groups in those "non-IS fighters." He is full of crap.


he strikes killed Zahran Alloush, the commander of the main Islamist militia there.

The cage guy who was opposed to democracy and hated religious minorities.


Further north, a combination of Assad troops, Iranian Shiite militias, and Russian firepower dislodged the powerful Islamist rebel coalition Jaish Al-Fatah from Latakia province

A group which up to a few months ago included AQ as a direct member.


One perverse consequence of cutting the Azaz corridor is that it plays into the hands of the al Qaeda-affiliate Jabhat Al-Nusra, since weapons supplies from Turkey would have to go through Idlib,

A Qatari/Turkish ally who already gets support from groups there.


Idlib may well become the regime’s next target.

In which case it would be a short term perverse consequence.


The now-plausible rebel collapse in the Aleppo region could also send thousands of fighters dejected by their apparent abandonment into the arms of Nusra or IS.

Where they will be bombed in turn.


Assad all along pursued a strategy of gradual escalation and desensitization that, sadly, worked well. Syrians already compare the international outcry and response to the IS’ siege of Kobane in 2014 to the world’s indifference to the current tragedy.

In all seriousness the PKK has better PR agents in America.


An IS defeat there would seal the border with Turkey, meeting an important American objective.

Which is a good thing.


It pressured Jabhat al-Nusra to withdraw and anointed its allies in Syria, including the prominent Islamist group Ahrar al-Sham, as its enforcers.

Brackish wine in a dirty glass, just dimmed the lights.


True to its record of calculated dithering, President Barack Obama’s administration let the Turkish proposal hang until it could no longer be implemented.

A good move, why on earth we would give AQ and it's allies a NFZ?


Turkey faces now an agonizing dilemma: watch and do nothing as a storm gathers on its border, or mount a direct intervention into Syria that would inevitably inflame its own Kurdish problem and pit it against both IS and an array of Assad-allied forces, including Russia.

The storm is the barrages which are smashing its proxies and may well help the Kurds cut off the border.


In the south, the United States has demanded a decrease in weapons deliveries to the Southern Front, while in the north, the Turkey-based operations room is reportedly dormant.

Now if that money could just be spent here and not given to TOW teams to help a bunch of Islamists try and seize power.


But to do so while exposing the rebellion to the joint Assad-Russia-Iran onslaught and without contingency planning is simply nefarious.

Strategic dithering is not nefarious.


And they all assume, probably rightly, that he is more interested in the appearance of a process than in spending any political capital over it

The people who voted him into office, aren't demanding a war with Russia over this. The public wasn't on board for war when Assad allegedly gassed people and are not on board with one now.

=====
Another interventionist going into a rage over the fact this bad bill of goods has no buyers and trying to spin more BS in the hopes it finds a buyer.

OUTLAW 09
02-06-2016, 09:32 AM
America's backwards Syria policy: "Simply nefarious."
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/02/05/obamas-disastrous-betrayal-of-the-syrian-rebels/?utm_content=buffer8b9c0&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer …

It is not only me complaining about the total failure of US FP......and I am a simple American sitting in Berlin watching a disaster unfold in both eastern Ukraine and Syria due to the lack of coherent, clear and concise US leadership other than "talk"...just "talk".

Any thirdgrader can "talk".....

Can the Obama WH make it even worse...yes they can as the radicalization of the anti Assad forces especially FSA, al Sham and JaI will be in fact a move towards JaN and IS...so with one swift stupid move by Obama he will be adding and additional 70K fighters to JaN and IS.

While Obama and Kerry both "talk" a great game".......here is the Assad and Putin calculation...by driving the sheer destruction ie Grozny style into the heart of the anti Assad opposition it will drive them to JaN and IS.....THEN Putin and Assad can sit back and say to the Sunni's it is either me or "them" take your choice......I seriously do not think both Obama and Putin fully understand what the outcomes are on this move for Syria and the wider ME......

Taken from the article:

Ever since 2011, the United States has hidden behind the hope of a Russian shift and closed its eyes to Putin’s mischief to avoid the hard choices on Syria. When the Russian onslaught started, U.S. officials like Deputy Secretary of State Tony Blinken predicted a quagmire to justify Washington’s passivity. If Russia’s intervention was doomed to failure, after all, the United States was not on the hook to act.

Russia, however, has been not only been able to increase the tempo of its military operations, but also to justify the mounting cost. And contrary to some pundits, who hailed the Russian intervention as the best chance to check the expansion of IS, Washington knows all too well that the result of the Russian campaign is the strengthening of the jihadist group in central Syria in the short term. This is a price Washington seems willing to pay for the sake of keeping the Geneva process alive.

The bankruptcy of U.S. policy goes deeper. The United States has already conceded key points about Assad’s future — concessions that Russia and the regime have been quick to pocket, while giving nothing in return. In the lead-up to and during the first days of the Geneva talks, it became clear that the United States is putting a lot more pressure on the opposition than it does on Russia, let alone Assad. Just as Russia escalates politically and militarily, the Obama administration is cynically de-escalating, and asking its allies to do so as well. This is weakening rebel groups that rely on supply networks that the U.S. oversees: In the south, the United States has demanded a decrease in weapons deliveries to the Southern Front, while in the north, the Turkey-based operations room is reportedly dormant.

The result is a widespread and understandable feeling of betrayal in the rebellion, whose U.S.-friendly elements are increasingly losing face within opposition circles. This could have the ironic effect of fragmenting the rebellion — after years of Western governments bemoaning the divisions between these very same groups.


Actually what is interesting is that this WH has made the same exact mistakes in Ukraine causing me to ask over and over "just where is the difference between the Obama FP and the Putin FP"...there is none....

OUTLAW 09
02-06-2016, 09:50 AM
The stupidity of this Obama WH, NSC and Kerry never fails to amaze me...."ask permission to drop humanitarian aid"...come on since when does one of the five main members of the UNSC have to "ask permission" when even Putin is on record for providing aid via THREE UNSC resolutions......ALL supported by Putin.

AT the same time you clearly and concisely state at the UNSC Russia and Assad are in full and total violation of international humanitarian treaties in their use of starvation....and the use of barrel bombs and deliberate Russian air strikes targeting civilians is a war crime.

Will Russia really allow the US to airdrop food to Syrian towns besieged by the Russian-backed government?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-is-preparing-for-possible-air-drops-of-humanitarian-supplies-over-syria/2016/02/05/552e689c-cc14-11e5-ae11-57b6aeab993f_story.html?postshare=1201454690552892&tid=ss_tw …

You state to the UNSC you are providing aid under their own resolutions, and that Russia is blocking that aid, you announce the flight times and indicate full air cover will be provided and then drop....

If one is never willing to backup diplomacy with "a show of force"..... diplomacy with Putin is designed to fail....it is that simple....

We have seen what even Obama himself stated to the world "we will judge Putin by his actions not his words"...well we have the actions WHERE are Obama's actions.

Even the third grader knows when to defend himself on the playground...this President evidently was never on a playground.....

OUTLAW 09
02-06-2016, 12:23 PM
oooo, mainstream rebels like the IF/MB.



As they are still in a state of rebellion and attacking government targets I am not seeing what the outrage is.



Funny how that worked out.



Israel and the "Kurds" the only two groups the public likes over there.



Even the SOHR has stated Russia has killed hundreds upon hundreds of IS fighters; and it's an interesting case of academic dishonesty when he ignores the presence of AQ and other radical groups in those "non-IS fighters." He is full of crap.



The cage guy who was opposed to democracy and hated religious minorities.



A group which up to a few months ago included AQ as a direct member.



A Qatari/Turkish ally who already gets support from groups there.



In which case it would be a short term perverse consequence.



Where they will be bombed in turn.



In all seriousness the PKK has better PR agents in America.



Which is a good thing.



Brackish wine in a dirty glass, just dimmed the lights.



A good move, why on earth we would give AQ and it's allies a NFZ?



The storm is the barrages which are smashing its proxies and may well help the Kurds cut off the border.



Now if that money could just be spent here and not given to TOW teams to help a bunch of Islamists try and seize power.



Strategic dithering is not nefarious.



The people who voted him into office, aren't demanding a war with Russia over this. The public wasn't on board for war when Assad allegedly gassed people and are not on board with one now.

=====
Another interventionist going into a rage over the fact this bad bill of goods has no buyers and trying to spin more BS in the hopes it finds a buyer.

cut and paste, cut and past, cut and paste...but nothing else outside of ranting...normal for a troller.

proof...this comment alone says it all...outside of cutting and pasting a author that gets published has nothing say.....WHAT have you published anywhere pray tell???

Strategic dithering is not nefarious.

when you critique say this author...then give us some solid comments that we can cut and paste you on.....other than "strategic dithering" YOU did notice I hope the long list of things he listed to lead him to his comment of "nefarious" or the your best one yet

Brackish wine in a dirty glass, just dimmed the lights.

come om mwe12 or mirhond get better at your trolling.....OR simply write something of your own thoughts and allow us to cut and paste your comments....BUT WAIT that is impossible because all you do is cut and paste comments .....and that leaves little to then cut and paste on which is your trolling intent anyway.

BUT WAIT... a simple challenge to you for us to judge your comments...
and allow us to cut and paste.....

Challenge: in a simple statement of at least say ten sentences... summarize exactly what the current Obama Syrian strategy is.

THEN be so kind to summarize whether it has been successful or not?

ten sentences should make it easy for you

will be interesting to see if you respond to this challenge as you have in previous postings sidestepped answers...again a mark of proAssad and proRussian trolling....

OUTLAW 09
02-06-2016, 12:43 PM
mwe12...thought I had seen that sentence before...now I thoroughly understand your proAssad trolling...as many Americans would not have recognized the Arabic saying......although you did reverse the saying to a degree

And just as it is with windows97 an American would not be so thoroughly in tune to Shi'ism as I am sure he is not a Shia iman unless he is studying religion in the Us which does not give one many employment chances these days in the US especially Shi'ism.

continue to cut and paste as it will now be ignored as a waste of time for anyone to read as long as you are trolling..

"Brackish wine in a dirty glass" should have been written ...because I know you are not a wine taster.......

"Brackish water in a dirty glass" so next time get at least the Arabic words into the correct saying.........

BTW...this should make your trolling heart beat faster with anticipation.......
Assad Regime forcing children in the Schools of loyalists areas, to learn "Russian language".

could pass you the sana link if you want to read more about the new Russian language program.......

Iran has dispatched pro-regime pop singer Saeed Hadadian to Syria to lift troop morale
http://bit.ly/1QfjO9F