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tequila
05-03-2007, 10:33 AM
After bombings in Herat (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/world/asia/03afghan.html?ref=world&pagewanted=print).


Aerial bombing of a valley in western Afghanistan several days ago by the American military killed at least 42 civilians, including women and children, and wounded 50 more, an Afghan government investigation found Wednesday. A provincial council member who visited the site independently put the figure at 50 civilians killed.

President Hamid Karzai (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/hamid_karzai/index.html?inline=nyt-per) said at a news conference in Kabul that the Afghan people could no longer tolerate such casualties. “Five years on, it is very difficult for us to continue accepting civilian casualties,” he said. “It is becoming heavy for us; it is not understandable anymore.”

...

The government delegation reported that three villages were bombed last week in the Zerkoh Valley, 30 miles south of the western city of Herat, and 100 houses were destroyed and 1,600 people were now homeless, Farzana Ahmadi, a spokeswoman for the governor of Herat Province, said by telephone.

“The report says that some women and children were drowned in the river, and it was maybe in the heat of the moment that the children and people wanted to escape and jumped into the water,” she said. “This all happened just because of a lack of coordination between international forces and our forces.”

...

American Special Operations forces conducted raids in the area on Friday and Sunday, and on both occasions they called in airstrikes when they encountered armed resistance, the military said. It said in a statement that it had killed 136 Taliban (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/t/taliban/index.html?inline=nyt-org) fighters, including some who were trying to flee across the river.

In Washington, a Pentagon spokesman, Lt. Col. Jeremy Martin, said, “We’re aware of the allegations, but we don’t have any information through operational channels to confirm the latest incident.” He added, “We take all measures possible to limit civilian casualties.”

Villagers held protests over the bombing in the nearby district town of Shindand on Monday and set fire to government offices.

Ms. Ahmadi, the Herat spokeswoman, said all 42 dead counted by the government delegation were civilians. She said the government was continuing its investigation to see if enemy fighters had also been killed.

...

Mr. Karzai accused American and NATO (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/north_atlantic_treaty_organization/index.html?inline=nyt-org) forces of failing to coordinate with the Afghan authorities.

“I have worked personally in the past four years, almost on a monthly and weekly basis, with the international community to bring some sort of coordination and cooperation to such raids on homes and on villages,” he said. “Unfortunately that cooperation and coordination, as we tried it, has not given us the results that we want, so we are not happy about that and we can no longer accept the civilian casualties the way they are occurring.

“We are very sorry when the international coalition force and NATO soldiers lose their lives or are injured,” he said. “It pains us. But Afghans are human beings, too.”

Sarajevo071
05-03-2007, 06:17 PM
Strange, seams I was right point on acts of indiscriminate killings by Western troops before and how much they don’t care… Seams Karzai finally figuring that too.

Let’s hope he will keep being American friend. He is needed.

tequila
05-03-2007, 08:02 PM
Strange, seams I was right point on acts of indiscriminate killings by Western troops before and how much they don’t care… Seams Karzai finally figuring that too.

Let’s hope he will keep being American friend. He is needed.

Are you sure you are right about that Western troops do not care about killing Muslim civilians?

If so, why do you think the Marines have pulled the MARSOC company that was involved in the shootings near Kabul and are apparently mulling charges against some? To save face? It would be much easier and less embarrassing to simply issue blanket denials, no? Instead the Marines have accepted a major black eye in the international press and also within the Special Operations community, since this was MARSOC's first deployment as a member of JSOC.

Why are Marines currently charged in the Haditha case, and why are Marines currently in prison over the murder of an Iraqi civilian in Hamdaniya?

And that's just my branch of service.

The U.S. and its forces are certainly not perfect. However, the armed men who do not care about innocent Muslim life in these conflicts are all waving the black flag of jihad, not U.S. colors. Has the Islamic Army in Iraq, the 1920 Revolution Brigades, the Mahdi Army, or the Taliban held any of their own responsible for the death of innocent civilians? And we all know about al-Qaeda in Iraq's record --- they specialize in the spectacular murder of men, women, and children.

Can you deny any of what I've written?

ilots
05-03-2007, 11:28 PM
Strange, seams I was right point on acts of indiscriminate killings by Western troops before and how much they don’t care… Seams Karzai finally figuring that too.

Let’s hope he will keep being American friend. He is needed.

zdravo, kako ste?

Though I am NOT familiar with this incident - I have been in the Zerkoh valley and it was a very tense, volatile, and crowded place. Rest assured we were no more likely at that time to conduct "indiscriminate killings" than when I was offering aid in Sarajevo or even in villages of Kosovo.

It sounds like you have formed an opinion, and will use what facts you can to support it.

I think it is unfortunate that you choose to blame all American soldiers for the actions of very few..... I believe you would find it equally wrong to blame all of Muslim for the actions of the few.

Best of luck to you.

Maximus
05-04-2007, 12:15 AM
Strange, seams I was right point on acts of indiscriminate killings by Western troops before and how much they don’t care… Seams Karzai finally figuring that too.

Let’s hope he will keep being American friend. He is needed.


Sarajevo: I really wonder what your motivation is and where you get your information. Have innocent civilians died in Iraq and Afghanistan and almost, if not every war ever fought? Yes. But to say that American Marines and Soldiers intentionally kill innocents or that we kill innocents without a care in the world is completely ridiculous. I led 60+ Marines in the fighting in Najaf a few years back and watched in amazement and with pride as my Marines repeatedly chose NOT to engage clearly identified enemy positions due to innocent civilians possibly being caught in the cross-fire. Taking this one step further, 2 of my Marines INTENTIONALLY CHOSE NOT TO FIRE THEIR HEAVY MACHINE GUNS TO SUPPRESS OR KILL MAHDI MILITIA MEMBERS WHOSE AK-47 AND RPK ROUNDS WERE RICHOCHETING OFF THEIR VEHICLE GUN SHIELDS, WITHIN INCHES OF KILLING THEM, BECAUSE THE ENEMY WAS FIRING FROM MINARETS LOCATED IN ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT MOSQUES TO ALL SHIA MUSLIMS. Your complete disregard of the core values that are instilled in every American serviceman or woman is appalling.

Sarajevo071
05-04-2007, 04:34 AM
Are you sure you are right about that Western troops do not care about killing Muslim civilians?

If so, why do you think the Marines have pulled the MARSOC company that was involved in the shootings near Kabul and are apparently mulling charges against some? To save face? It would be much easier and less embarrassing to simply issue blanket denials, no? Instead the Marines have accepted a major black eye in the international press and also within the Special Operations community, since this was MARSOC's first deployment as a member of JSOC.

Why are Marines currently charged in the Haditha case, and why are Marines currently in prison over the murder of an Iraqi civilian in Hamdaniya?

And that's just my branch of service.

The U.S. and its forces are certainly not perfect. However, the armed men who do not care about innocent Muslim life in these conflicts are all waving the black flag of jihad, not U.S. colors. Has the Islamic Army in Iraq, the 1920 Revolution Brigades, the Mahdi Army, or the Taliban held any of their own responsible for the death of innocent civilians? And we all know about al-Qaeda in Iraq's record --- they specialize in the spectacular murder of men, women, and children.

Can you deny any of what I've written?

I never implied or said that I hold in blame ALL U.S. Armed Forces for killings of innocent civilians... Second, I posted my comment like a rebuttal to all of you who said that U.S. military do NOT kill (at all) civilian on purpose but only in handful ceases by mistake. That's not true.

You still keeping me in that lame light that I am here to accuse all of you instead to see my point that I am trying to make for weeks... I am NOT talking about terrorist attacks nor do I making cases for Resistance. I start asking simple question on which NONE of you even answer even when I came back with examples and proofs.

I ask question here, how you see any Muslim being on your side while you still killing them!?, and none of you wanted even to stop and think, put some effort in answers... All I saw was excusing your side and asking me some nonsense that has NO connection with my original question.

You are all smart and experienced people here, so how come you can't figure that my question is very important for all of you!?? I am amazed that you people don't look for same answer yourself since is so important for what you trying to do. BTW, I don't hate U.S. (I’m living here) and I know how many good people live here and how much good is done in name of Good by American people.

But, your policy sucks. For every good example you can tell me I can tell you 2 bad ones. Why is that? You are mentioning criminal charges, tequila? OK. How many of them are equated of charges by now!? How many charges never where brought up!? And how many and with what punishment are punish!? I know enough to see American military "justice" and examples are all around us.

In same time U.S. military rounding up Muslims regardless of charges, due process, guilt or any proof, kidnapping them for they homes and families, and sending them half a word away so they will be kept there for YEARS without charge and then let go since they was INOCENT in start!?

tequila, believe you or not I am keeping you in high regards for you honest, fair and open talk and posts and my (provocative) post was NOT personal attack on you (or anyone else here) but proving that I was right when I mention certain things and ask that MAIN question... So, please, don't treat me like a moron...

Instead to admit all bad things and show me examples of good one, to talk with me, persuade on your side of story, you ignoring all those examples, all truth and current situations, and going after me with examples of terrorists attacks!? What that mean? That I have something with that so you point out on “my side”? That I am one of them because where share same... What??

I see I failed in my intentions. Not all blame is mine... But, that's ok too. You guys don't need help, outside opinion, questions, critique and truth... You have yourself. Everyone’s in sync, everyone’s on same page, patting each other's back and basically agreeing on every single thing... No question and no challenges of truth.

Again, that's just fine. It is your place and you have every right to do that. Sadly, I think you will keep chewing all same wrong opinions and ideas and life will never change on better for any of us.

tequila, soldier to soldier, I wish you best and please accept my apologies if I personally insulted you trying to point out truth and examples of war crimes SOME of your military did it. Have no worries, it will never happen again.

....

Sarajevo071
05-04-2007, 04:38 AM
zdravo, kako ste?

Though I am NOT familiar with this incident - I have been in the Zerkoh valley and it was a very tense, volatile, and crowded place. Rest assured we were no more likely at that time to conduct "indiscriminate killings" than when I was offering aid in Sarajevo or even in villages of Kosovo.

It sounds like you have formed an opinion, and will use what facts you can to support it.

I think it is unfortunate that you choose to blame all American soldiers for the actions of very few..... I believe you would find it equally wrong to blame all of Muslim for the actions of the few.

Best of luck to you.

What that means!? You finally after 3 1/2 years of Serbs killing Bosnians came and "help"?! Don't worry. I know for help U.S. gave Bosnia and I believe you heard Bosnians thanking you for it. No need to wave with that now.

In your coalition in Iraq you have Bosnians, Albanians, Croats and Serbs in mercenaries, Slovenians in Afghanistan... Or maybe you miss that info?

And, if I have wrong opinions, prove me wrong with facts and examples, do not hide them of offer excuse for them.

Thank you, I wish you all the best too.

Sarajevo071
05-04-2007, 04:45 AM
Sarajevo: I really wonder what your motivation is and where you get your information. Have innocent civilians died in Iraq and Afghanistan and almost, if not every war ever fought? Yes. But to say that American Marines and Soldiers intentionally kill innocents or that we kill innocents without a care in the world is completely ridiculous. I led 60+ Marines in the fighting in Najaf a few years back and watched in amazement and with pride as my Marines repeatedly chose NOT to engage clearly identified enemy positions due to innocent civilians possibly being caught in the cross-fire. Taking this one step further, 2 of my Marines INTENTIONALLY CHOSE NOT TO FIRE THEIR HEAVY MACHINE GUNS TO SUPPRESS OR KILL MAHDI MILITIA MEMBERS WHOSE AK-47 AND RPK ROUNDS WERE RICHOCHETING OFF THEIR VEHICLE GUN SHIELDS, WITHIN INCHES OF KILLING THEM, BECAUSE THE ENEMY WAS FIRING FROM MINARETS LOCATED IN ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT MOSQUES TO ALL SHIA MUSLIMS. Your complete disregard of the core values that are instilled in every American serviceman or woman is appalling.

Good for you and your people. But to say that (SOME) U.S. military personnel do not kill rape or torture civilians on purpose is a lie... Proofs are all around us and mostly coming from honest and brave U.S. soldiers who are talking and being witness of history that is making today.

Shooting people in they homes, raping them, torturing them, killing them in streets, markets, weddings, schools, mosques, in traffic stops and when indiscriminately opening retaliatory fire on everyone close - is INTENT to kill. Just check U.S. military courts and you will find facts.

I respect your opinions and feeling, but what I find appalling is people denying the truth and covering crimes. Especially in this time and age when so much is matter of public record and can be easy find and proven… BTW, Falluja and what happened there means something to you!?

Steve Blair
05-04-2007, 12:52 PM
I would suggest that people take a deep breath and regroup on this thread. This is an important, sensitive subject, but it's also one that needs to be looked at from both sides. Sarajevo, you have made some strong, sweeping statements regarding US troops. I would ask by way of comparison what sorts of steps have been taken within the Moslem community to deal with those who kill civilians in the name of their cause? Has there been widespread condemnation of the use of car bombs, IEDs, and other devices that frequently kill civilians? The US side is not perfect by any means, and I am especially critical of the reliance on firepower to the exclusion of many other techniques. But your comment here:
Shooting people in they homes, raping them, torturing them, killing them in streets, markets, weddings, schools, mosques, in traffic stops and when indiscriminately opening retaliatory fire on everyone closecould be applied with just as much strength to the insurgent/terrorist forces. I have seen little in the way of condemnation of their tactics and techniques. Perhaps I missed it, but this is something that perhaps you could address from your perspective. Why is the Moslem world (or what we see of it in the West) so silent regarding this?

Sarajevo071
05-04-2007, 02:18 PM
I will not to be posting anymore so let this by my latest post and answer.

Steve, you read my posts and ask questions nicely so let me answer you before I leave…



Sarajevo, you have made some strong, sweeping statements regarding US troops. I would ask by way of comparison what sorts of steps have been taken within the Moslem community to deal with those who kill civilians in the name of their cause?

Like I said above, this is U.S. military post board and that’s reason why I was asking questions about U.S. military… It will be kind of silly for me to ask here question about behavior of Resistance, don’t you think?

But all of you, instead to accept and admit something that we ALL see and know, and try to change (since you are the “good guys”, right?!) and that way get more support and allies on your side, you all pushing aside killings by your side and asking about “them”.

Ignoring that you are showing me, and many others here, that you hold Muslim lives in low regard… Why then asking questions like “why this happened?”, “why they fight?” and “why they hating us?”.


Has there been widespread condemnation of the use of car bombs, IEDs, and other devices that frequently kill civilians? The US side is not perfect by any means, and I am especially critical of the reliance on firepower to the exclusion of many other techniques. But your comment here: could be applied with just as much strength to the insurgent/terrorist forces.

I have seen little in the way of condemnation of their tactics and techniques. Perhaps I missed it, but this is something that perhaps you could address from your perspective. Why is the Moslem world (or what we see of it in the West) so silent regarding this?

Just because you can’t see dissuasions, arguing, accusations and hard questions on “other side” that’s do not mean there is none. Trust me, there is! And I am one of asking them. Especially after recent stupidity with 12-year boy doing beheading. What kind of crap is that!??

Anyways, with this your question and my answers I am making full circle… And I will ask you again (rhetorically of course): If U.S. continue with killings, rapes, torture and kidnappings of INNOCENT Muslims how do you see anyone stepping on your side, defending and understating your side!?? How do you see they support and help?!

That was my point all this time.

Muslims and Muslim world are not silent just away from your eyes since you are not trusted and you are continuously killing and imprisoning Muslims by sanctions, “special operations” and wars, supporting all those dictators and corrupt leaders… But they are your friends regardless how much abuse of power and no traces of human values and democracy they have.

But that’s ok with all of you since victims are Muslims and that way they are easily manipulated and ruled by your interests.

Again, thank you for your response and willingness to talk nicely.


Buy


P.S.
All those who think that this is not war for oil and Israel they should read first couple chapters “It Doesn't Take a Hero” by retired U.S. general Norman Schwarzkopf (he is the one talking about importance of U.S. taking over oil fields), “Fire This Time” by Ramsey Clark (about U.S. war crimes in Gulf) and “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy” study by John Mearsheimer, political science professor at the University of Chicago, and Stephen Walt, academic dean of the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University available for free on the Web…

goesh
05-04-2007, 03:48 PM
I thought I would do a bit of comparative analysis of past ROE and current ROE with you, Sarajevo, but I don't think it would accomplish much since the torched hooches in Nam belonged mostly to Buddhists and you seem stuck on the notion that America is waging a war on muslims. Medication may provide some insight and a unique perspective of 'our point of view', some fresh insight as they say, but you probably would find a more receptive audience and more compatibility in an Islamist forum where the report and belief in American atrocities are not encumbered with objectivity and rational fact. I had thought about starting an internet therapy support group for folks who can neither fully support nor reject the AQ approach to life's complexity, not that I would necessarily include you in this category of people, but I need to devote my time and limited talent to somehow circumventing the ROE of the Bloody Soap Box section of this forum and not get busted in the process. I hope you understand and appreciate my dilemma.

Steve Blair
05-04-2007, 04:26 PM
And on that note I think this thread may have served its purpose. It's a shame that we couldn't get more into a discussion of comparative responses to atrocities, as well as perhaps some meaningful discussion about ways to possibly limit these incidents on our side combined with a strong attempt in some quarters to at the very least chastise those who commit atrocities on the other side. There would have been, IMO, real value in that kind of exchange. But another "he said-he said" style of exchange gets us nowhere.