Amu

[skiguy]

I'm very interested in getting a BA from this University, but I have 2 questions. I ask for raw and brutal honesty in your answers and opinions.

1) Do their UG degree programs have a good reputation among the intelligence community and the military? I'm looking at one of these three fields of study: Intelligence (IO), Int. Affairs, or Middle Eastern Studies

(now here's where I request brutal honesty :D )
2) By the time I get my degree, I will be 53 or 54 years old. Is my age going to be a hindrance for seeking employment in the Intelligence community? Since I have absolutely zero experience, I will be starting with an entry level position.
Am I thinking realistically when I believe they won't be all that comcerned with age if I have a BA in one of the three area of studies I mentioned AND have the ability to speak/read/write, at an intermediate level, Arabic or another needed language?

Thanks, Ken

[jcustis]

Ken,

While I can't speak for the "big name" intel agencies, when I was going the oral board for the Foreign Service selection process, an older lady was going through at the same time.

It seems she had been a military spouse most of her life, and was starting here own career. One of our members (maybe Tom Odom) has previously stated that the Dept of State actually had some good intelligence analysts buried within its structure, and I imagine they started off with the same FS examination and screening.

Although I also cannot speak on the BA aspect of an AMU education, the various master's degrees offered are fairly prevalent among junior to mid-grade military officers, and I've never known anyone in or out of the military to look on AMU as a diploma mill.

Member ericmwalters was once an AMU instructor, so he will likely pop in here and offer his thoughts.

[Steve Blair]

I'm currently taking courses through them, and I have to say that what I've seen so far is at least on par with the other universities I've attended. What sets them apart is the wide instructor base they can draw on. You won't find that many other places.

[skiguy]

Steve, that's the thing (and I believe I mentioned this in another thread), there is nothing nearby that even comes close to what they offer. They have degree programs in exactly what I'm looking for.

Thanks for the advice, and thanks for the mention of the old lady. :eek: :D

Looking forward to see what eric and Tom have to say.

[jcustis]

Thanks for the advice, and thanks for the mention of the old lady.

She was certainly wiser, as she passed the assessment, and I was sent packing with an advisory to know the Bill of Rights a lot better the next time I attempted.:D

[Ski]

I'm taking the Master's program in Special Operations and Low Intensity Conflict and have been very impressed by the professors as well as the ability to shift deadlines because of work, real world stuff like my wife being sick, etc...

Could not recommend them highly enough.

[ericmwalters]

SKIGUY (Ken) asks a number of questions regarding American Military University and employment in the intelligence world in general:


1) Do their UG degree programs have a good reputation among the intelligence community and the military? I'm looking at one of these three fields of study: Intelligence (IO), Int. Affairs, or Middle Eastern Studies

You have to understand that there is little out there with regard to degrees in intelligence studies in ANY venue. AMU's competition in intelligence studies comes from only a few other institutions: (1) Mercyhurst College, Erie, PA, which offers both bachelor's and master's degrees in intelligence studies but this is done in the traditional residence manner, (2) Tennessee State University, which is just now getting a program up and running, and (3) the Defense Intelligence Agency's National Defense Intelligence College, which offers a Bachelor's in Strategic Intelligence (BSI) and a Master of Science in Strategic Intelligence (MSSI)...of course, you have to already be in the federal government and hold a Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information clearance and access to attend the latter.

A number of the AMU faculty in intelligence studies have taught at NDIC at DIA--Jonathan Lockwood is perhaps the most prominent and he's currently doing intelligence education for the Department of Homeland Security.

So, for an entry-level intelligence analyst position that does not require specialized languages, regional expertise, or technical acumen with regard to communications, computers, and other networking/processing systems, an AMU degree is worth something to the federal intelligence agencies. Will it beat out an Ivy League or other prestigious school degree? No.

Regarding the language skills, I'll get to that in a minute.


(now here's where I request brutal honesty )
2) By the time I get my degree, I will be 53 or 54 years old. Is my age going to be a hindrance for seeking employment in the Intelligence community? Since I have absolutely zero experience, I will be starting with an entry level position. Am I thinking realistically when I believe they won't be all that comcerned with age if I have a BA in one of the three area of studies I mentioned AND have the ability to speak/read/write, at an intermediate level, Arabic or another needed language?

Regarding age, the federal government prohibits discrimination in hiring based on age of the applicant. That said, you still have to compete with all the bright young lights out there. If your resume is the same as theirs, you'll be competing based on previous experience that you can leverage into the job which they won't have. I don't know what you've done, but you might want to figure out where you can fit it into the organization/business process.

Regarding language ability, this is absolutely key/critical...but you may find yourself forward "in-country" quite a bit. If you've got family, that may be a bit of an issue for you. If that's not an issue, you can then develop/advance your language skills and regional expertise and then be seen as a true expert, despite your age.

Understand what entry-level means, however. The salary ranges are very, very low...even for those who apply with master's degrees. The civilian workforce in many DoD intelligence organizations are transitioning into a different management system which is going to be separate from the beloved (and very traditional) civil service system that most of us grew up with. It will be based purely on performance and not reward seniority as much as the old system did. So, if you are hired by an organization in the new system, there's a chance you could rocket up the pay band if you are are truly a "front runner."

Hope this helps you in your decisionmaking.

--Eric

[skiguy]

Hope this helps you in your decisionmaking.

--Eric
It sure did! I'm about 95% sure I know where I'm going now. I'll worry about the job after I get a degree. I'm sure, as well at AMU, I won't have to be concerned about dumb-a, Liberal, Bush-hating, 9-11 conspiracy believing professors. Thatwas actually a concern of mine with other schools.

This of course could change, but I at least have it narrowed down to three areas of study for now. I'm very interested (unless someone really advises me otherwise) in Intelligence studies with a concentration in IO. If the Army would have let me be a PSYOP, I would enlist today...unfortunately age was a problem


One more question about the language courses. I see there are only 2 levels of Arabic. Is that correct? Where can I learn more (preferably to gain credits)?

Just think, in 2 or 3 years from now, I may actually be able to contribute intelligently to discussions here. :D
If no one minds, I'd still like to (if you all don't mind dumb questions or comments). I have so many questions for you guys, but I don't want to be a pain.
I certainly know where to come, now, to learn things.

Thank you, Eric and thank you everyone!

[jcustis]

The folks who frequent this site the most do not hold a monopoly on intelligent discussion Ken. We are all probably guilty of posting from where we sit (or have sat) to some degree, and I'll go out on a limb and say that we have studied issues and regions because it was part of what kept us out of harms way.

With only a few exceptions since I've joined the site, everyone has contributed in some way, even if only to shock the older hands back to reality and make them wonder, "why didn't I think of that?"

I applaud you for your desire and drive.

[skiguy]

Again, thank you all for your help. I enrolled at AMU today. Intelligence Studies with a concentration in IO.

Only "problem" I have is they offer only 2 levels in the Arabic language. So I guess I'm on my own with that if I want to advance to a higher level. By the way, do they use the Rosetta Stone in those courses?

Any suggestions?

[J-Man]

Again, thank you all for your help. I enrolled at AMU today. Intelligence Studies with a concentration in IO.

Only "problem" I have is they offer only 2 levels in the Arabic language. So I guess I'm on my own with that if I want to advance to a higher level. By the way, do they use the Rosetta Stone in those courses?

Any suggestions?


Hi, Skiguy. I just joined this forum and saw this thread about American Military University. How are your studies going thus far?

I'm interested in AMU myself, and have been trying to do some research on it. Are there any others here who are currently taking courses there or who have done so in the past? What can you tell us? Thanks!

[Steve Blair]

I've taken courses from them. We also have some former instructors on the board.

[Ski]

I've been taking Master's courses from them since the summer of 06, and will be 50% complete in AUG 07.

Most of the instructors are superb, they are also very flexible in assignments as required.

Most of the courses I've taken are paper-writing based, although all of them also have had a discussion board that you need to use for grades - it surrounds the topics that you are reading about. I have not taken a single test yet.

Can't recommend them highly enough - where else can one study Unconventional Warfare?

[skiguy]

Hi, Skiguy. I just joined this forum and saw this thread about American Military University. How are your studies going thus far?

I'm interested in AMU myself, and have been trying to do some research on it. Are there any others here who are currently taking courses there or who have done so in the past? What can you tell us? Thanks!

Hi J-Man. Going very well so far, thanks, but it's only my first class (week and a half left). I can't really give a good assessment yet, but if this course is any indication, writing skills are very important. Make sure you can back up your arguments and points. I'll be taking the writing course next and heard it was pretty intensive...but I'll learn how to cite stuff from SWJ. :D

I've only heard good things about this school and am looking forward to my upcoming courses (except Math)

However, all this talk here lately makes me think of changing majors to anthroplogy.

[J-Man]

I've been taking Master's courses from them since the summer of 06, and will be 50% complete in AUG 07.

Most of the instructors are superb, they are also very flexible in assignments as required.

Most of the courses I've taken are paper-writing based, although all of them also have had a discussion board that you need to use for grades - it surrounds the topics that you are reading about. I have not taken a single test yet.

Can't recommend them highly enough - where else can one study Unconventional Warfare?

Thanks for the feedback, Ski. How many classes do you take at one time? And how much time would you say you spend per week on your studies?
They sure have some fascinating programs there.

[J-Man]

Hi J-Man. Going very well so far, thanks, but it's only my first class (week and a half left). I can't really give a good assessment yet, but if this course is any indication, writing skills are very important. Make sure you can back up your arguments and points. I'll be taking the writing course next and heard it was pretty intensive...but I'll learn how to cite stuff from SWJ. :D

I've only heard good things about this school and am looking forward to my upcoming courses (except Math)

However, all this talk here lately makes me think of changing majors to anthroplogy.

What class are you taking, skiguy? And how much classwork would you say you do each week?

[J-Man]

Is there anyone on this board who has completed one of the intelligence degrees at AMU? That's one area I'm looking at.

[skiguy]

J-Man, taking RQ295 now. It's a required course for all who are starting out in any BA program. I only started off with one class because I wanted to see how I'd do. Proficiency in Writing and Math begins in August.
I'll do about 16 hours average/week schoolwork. (that might be overkill, but I'm maintaining a 95 average) Depends on the assignments. Most of my courses are 8 weeks, some (like this Math and Writing) are 16.

If you do enroll, contact Dr. Berry (the Intel Studies Dept head). He's been very helpful and answers all my questions. Also, check out the student lounge discussion board. Lot's of useful Q&A over there.

If you decide to this (especially if you're going to major in Intelligence) let me know. Are you thinking of a BA or going to Graduate school?

[Ski]

J

I take two classes per semester. I spend about 90 minutes every other day reading (but I read very quickly) and then I spend about 4-5 hours writing and then proofreading a paper.

[J-Man]

J-Man, taking RQ295 now. It's a required course for all who are starting out in any BA program. I only started off with one class because I wanted to see how I'd do. Proficiency in Writing and Math begins in August.
I'll do about 16 hours average/week schoolwork. (that might be overkill, but I'm maintaining a 95 average) Depends on the assignments. Most of my courses are 8 weeks, some (like this Math and Writing) are 16.

If you do enroll, contact Dr. Berry (the Intel Studies Dept head). He's been very helpful and answers all my questions. Also, check out the student lounge discussion board. Lot's of useful Q&A over there.

If you decide to this (especially if you're going to major in Intelligence) let me know. Are you thinking of a BA or going to Graduate school?

Skiguy, I think you're smart to start out with one course. As time goes on and you get more used to school you'll not only be able to handle a bigger workload (if you want), but you'll become more efficient. It sure sounds like you're doing well though. :)

Thanks for that tip about Dr. Berry. I'm looking at some different options right now, and AMU is one of them. I already have a BA degree. So if I did enroll, I would probably go the Master's degree route.

[J-Man]

J

I take two classes per semester. I spend about 90 minutes every other day reading (but I read very quickly) and then I spend about 4-5 hours writing and then proofreading a paper.

Do you have to complete a thesis as part of your program?

[Ski]

I wouldn't call it a thesis, but there is a "final" class that needs to be taken. I'm still halfway from that point, so I haven't really looked into it.



Do you have to complete a thesis as part of your program?

[LawVol]

I'm in a master's program at AMU (National Security) and my program does not have a thesis. If you prefer a thesis, many programs have that option; you simply substitute the thesis for an elective course. In place of a thesis, my program has a final exam. Unfortunately, I have no information on that as I am only about half way through the program.

The papers due at the end of the courses I have taken generally range from 12-16 pages, certainly not in the neighborhood of a thesis. However, nearly all of my assignments have involved writing so be prepared.

Ski is absolutely correct. Expect alot of reading. I have also not had a test yet. Good Luck!

[Van]

When I completed the Master Strat Intel (w/honors) course in '05, the comp consisted of two essay questions picked from a list of five (I think), in an eight hour, proctored sitting (I was able to arrange to do it in two four hour blocks on consecutive days, due to issues with the proctors). I studied by drafting out answers to all five questions repeatedly.

Hard, but fair. After the nightmare stories I've heard about thesis advisors etc, I'm glad I went the comp route.

[J-Man]

I wouldn't call it a thesis, but there is a "final" class that needs to be taken. I'm still halfway from that point, so I haven't really looked into it.

Thanks, understood.

[J-Man]

I'm in a master's program at AMU (National Security) and my program does not have a thesis. If you prefer a thesis, many programs have that option; you simply substitute the thesis for an elective course. In place of a thesis, my program has a final exam. Unfortunately, I have no information on that as I am only about half way through the program.

The papers due at the end of the courses I have taken generally range from 12-16 pages, certainly not in the neighborhood of a thesis. However, nearly all of my assignments have involved writing so be prepared.

Ski is absolutely correct. Expect alot of reading. I have also not had a test yet. Good Luck!

I don't understand why most programs don't make the thesis an option. Honestly, in many cases, a thesis can end up delaying someone from even graduating from their program in a timely manner. I look at a thesis as being most useful for someone wanting to make a career in academia. But for everyone else, some kind of comprehensive exam would make more sense.

Thanks for your response.

LawVol, I'm just wondering, what will you be using your Master's in National Security for? Are you completing this program to enhance your own educational level in an area of interest? Or will you be using what you've learned to get another job? Are you an attorney?

[J-Man]

When I completed the Master Strat Intel (w/honors) course in '05, the comp consisted of two essay questions picked from a list of five (I think), in an eight hour, proctored sitting (I was able to arrange to do it in two four hour blocks on consecutive days, due to issues with the proctors). I studied by drafting out answers to all five questions repeatedly.

Hard, but fair. After the nightmare stories I've heard about thesis advisors etc, I'm glad I went the comp route.

Hi, Van. You completed the Master's in Strategic Intel program? That's one of the programs I'm looking at. Do you mind if I ask you some specific questions on it?

1. How long did it take you to complete it? And how many courses did you take at a time?

2. How many hours per week of schoolwork time would you say were needed for each course?

3. Did your courses in this program involve both tests and papers?

4. What concentration did you pick? (intelligence collection, analysis, operations, terrorism, etc)

5. Have you used this program to actually get a job in the intelligence field?

Thanks!

P.S. I've heard horror stories about Thesis advisors too! :)

[Van]

1. How long did it take you to complete it? And how many courses did you take at a time?

Close to four years, but there were moves and a mobilization in the middle that make it closer to two and a half years of work. I usually took two at a time, once I really got into the self-flagellation with three, but I was "between opportunities" at the time.


2. How many hours per week of schoolwork time would you say were needed for each course?

Fifteen, give or take a bit per course... on the average. Some weeks were much less, others much more.


3. Did your courses in this program involve both tests and papers?

Yup. Both papers and tests in varying amounts. Possibly the most stressful was a course that had only one assignment, three essays of 2-3 pages each, any topics covered by the course, due in the last week. A real "all or nothing" feelling. (That was IN4... something, "Intelligence in Ancient History", a very fun elective).


4. What concentration did you pick? (intelligence collection, analysis, operations, terrorism, etc)

Intelligence analysis.


5. Have you used this program to actually get a job in the intelligence field?

Being in a military reserve intell unit is of much greater utility (fellow unit members in the community), as is experience at the tactical level in the military, but I think my name tends to migrate to the top of lists because of it.

[LawVol]

I don't understand why most programs don't make the thesis an option. Honestly, in many cases, a thesis can end up delaying someone from even graduating from their program in a timely manner. I look at a thesis as being most useful for someone wanting to make a career in academia. But for everyone else, some kind of comprehensive exam would make more sense.

Thanks for your response.

LawVol, I'm just wondering, what will you be using your Master's in National Security for? Are you completing this program to enhance your own educational level in an area of interest? Or will you be using what you've learned to get another job? Are you an attorney?

I am pursuing the degree because it is an area of interest. I do not forsee working in this area when I leave the USAF. As an attorney, I will most likely move on to a law firm or a defense contractor.

[J-Man]

Thanks for your comments and information, Van.

One thing I find really cool about AMU is that the instructors all seem to have experience in the field. Did you have some really great instructors?

Also, when it comes to the actual intelligence courses, did your classes at AMU actually teach you how to do specific intelligence collection work or intelligence analysis-related tasks and methods that you could then take to a job and use as an intelligence analyst?

You're lucky that you're in a reserve intelligence unit. There aren't too many reserve units like that. Is this an Army or Navy unit? And did they send you to their service-specific intel school?

I think your experience in the reserves and your degree can surely get you an intelligence job. If not with the feds, perhaps with the state or local government. Have you ever applied for state or local law enforcement intelligence jobs?

[J-Man]

I am pursuing the degree because it is an area of interest. I do not forsee working in this area when I leave the USAF. As an attorney, I will most likely move on to a law firm or a defense contractor.

Understood, LawVol. Thanks for your response.

[Van]

One thing I find really cool about AMU is that the instructors all seem to have experience in the field. Did you have some really great instructors?

Of 12 (13 counting the comp) courses, 10 (I think, been a while) instructors, there were two that I would recommend avoiding. Marian Leeburg instructed a course in threats to national security, but was only interested in genocide. Rob Rice, instructing a course on naval warfare in antiquity, made it clear that he was the font of all knowledge on the subject, and that I should bow and scrape before him in the hopes that I might assimilate some fragment of his great accumen.

All the others were outstanding, and free from the two great vices of academia (bringing irrelevant agendas to the classroom like Ms. Leeburg, and condescending intellectual arrogance towards your students like Mr. Rice), with great real-world experience as well as academic credentials.


(D)id your classes at AMU actually teach you how to do specific intelligence collection work or intelligence analysis-related tasks and methods that you could then take to a job and use as an intelligence analyst?

Don't know about the collection stuff, but I learned some great and extremely useful stuff about analysis.


You're lucky that you're in a reserve intelligence unit. There aren't too many reserve units like that. Is this an Army or Navy unit? And did they send you to their service-specific intel school?

Any military reserve unit will send you to service specific specialty schools. Good units will get you to more than the minimum if you want it, and frequently to joint or sister service schools.

[J-Man]

Van writes:

"Of 12 (13 counting the comp) courses, 10 (I think, been a while) instructors, there were two that I would recommend avoiding. Marian Leeburg instructed a course in threats to national security, but was only interested in genocide. Rob Rice, instructing a course on naval warfare in antiquity, made it clear that he was the font of all knowledge on the subject, and that I should bow and scrape before him in the hopes that I might assimilate some fragment of his great accumen. All the others were outstanding, and free from the two great vices of academia (bringing irrelevant agendas to the classroom like Ms. Leeburg, and condescending intellectual arrogance towards your students like Mr. Rice), with great real-world experience as well as academic credentials."

That's really great to hear! I'd never expect EVERY teacher in any school to be good. But 10 out of 12 is a real good ratio. And if I do enroll in AMU, I'll be sure to avoid Mr. Rice and Ms. Leeburg. Thanks for those tips.

"Don't know about the collection stuff, but I learned some great and extremely useful stuff about analysis."

I guess I need to be a bit more specific in my question. I'm sure you learned lots of theory, history of the intelligence profession, etc. But did you learn a lot of "nuts and bolts" intelligence analysis skills that analysts can use on the job? You know what I mean? Let's say for instance that someone gets thru the Master's in Strategic Intelligence and gets hired to be an intelligence analyst by some agency. Is there lots of useful stuff learned in the AMU program that can be used right away on an actual intelligence job? Did you work with any intelligence analysis software (analysts' notebook, etc) as part of your assignments? What about writing intelligence briefs and reports? Was there a lot of that in your program? Sorry if I wasn't clear in my earlier question, and I appreciate your insight. Thanks.

"Any military reserve unit will send you to service specific specialty schools. Good units will get you to more than the minimum if you want it, and frequently to joint or sister service schools."

I was in the reserves myself. I'm a former National Guardsman (11B Infantry MOS). I've thought of re-enlisting, and trying to get into an intelligence unit. But from what I hear, it's hard to get into those units these days since so many people are looking to get intelligence training. I have another question for you related to reserve duty. Back when I was in the National Guard, I never thought about clearances and stuff like that.

Now, this may seem like a dumb question, but do people in reserve units automatically get clearances? Did I have one back when I was in the National Guard in an infantry unit?

[Shammy]

I'm in a master's program at AMU (National Security) and my program does not have a thesis. If you prefer a thesis, many programs have that option; you simply substitute the thesis for an elective course. In place of a thesis, my program has a final exam. Unfortunately, I have no information on that as I am only about half way through the program.

The papers due at the end of the courses I have taken generally range from 12-16 pages, certainly not in the neighborhood of a thesis. However, nearly all of my assignments have involved writing so be prepared.

Ski is absolutely correct. Expect alot of reading. I have also not had a test yet. Good Luck!
Hello LawVol,

I recently enrolled into the National Security Master program at APU (July 2008), can you provide me with any insight as to pros/cons, preferred instructors, etc?

What is your opinion of the National Security major as a whole so far? I would like to complete the program in one year, is that possible while working full-time?

I'm an Investigator (former Fed), and was thinking of returning to the Fed Gov't in some sort of security-related occupation so I'm hoping this degree might help, plus I'm very interested in the curriculum.

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.........

[Ski]

I'm now 75% complete. Three more classes and a comprehensive exam to follow. Next class starts in September, then I'll crank two out in the first quarter of 09, and then take the exam in APR/MAY 09 and wrap this thing up.

Also at CGSC now, so I decided to slow it down towards the finish so I can get the schoolwork here done above standard...

[Entropy]

I'm taking a break after getting through about 1/2 of an AMU masters. My feelings on the program are mixed. Although I've learned a lot, almost all of it has come from simply reading the course material. The program therefore has the feel of a degree factory - simply do some work and you will be rewarded with a career-enhancing degree. To give you an example, I logged in on the last day of class to upload my final paper to discover the professor had already given me an A for the course, even though the final paper was 50% of the grade. I got the paper back the next day and the only comment was "Great Job on your final paper" with an "A" for it.

I have a friend who got his undergrad degree at AMU. He was really happy with that program. He began a Master's earlier this year and was disappointed to find out that many of the course were exactly the same except for the course number. Same reading material, same course description. The only difference was that one cost a lot more and was progress toward a higher level degree.

This isn't to say it's all bad. Some of the professors are quite good as are some of the courses. It's also one of the few places provide national security-related degrees and the only one I know of that does so online. Personally, I'd much rather do NDU, but I can't move to DC to do that - at least not right now.

So I will probably complete my AMU masters, but I have to say that if there were another option available to me, I would seriously consider it.

[jkm_101_fso]

Hello LawVol,

I recently enrolled into the National Security Master program at APU (July 2008), can you provide me with any insight as to pros/cons, preferred instructors, etc?

What is your opinion of the National Security major as a whole so far? I would like to complete the program in one year, is that possible while working full-time?

I'm an Investigator (former Fed), and was thinking of returning to the Fed Gov't in some sort of security-related occupation so I'm hoping this degree might help, plus I'm very interested in the curriculum.

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.........


I took NS500 w/BG Mangum and RC508 (research for Intel studies) with Dr. Keithly. NS500 is quite a bit of reading and some pretty lengthly papers due at the end of the week, but not difficult. I found Dr. Keithly's research class to be pretty challenging and he was pretty tough academically, but a really nice guy and very fair. I would recommend either. Right now, I'm in NS503 with Dr. James, another good course; more reading but less writing. Let me know if you have any other questions.

LawVol-- what course are you taking for NSS right now, and what is your area of concentration?

[LawVol]

Hello LawVol,

I recently enrolled into the National Security Master program at APU (July 2008), can you provide me with any insight as to pros/cons, preferred instructors, etc?

What is your opinion of the National Security major as a whole so far? I would like to complete the program in one year, is that possible while working full-time?

I'm an Investigator (former Fed), and was thinking of returning to the Fed Gov't in some sort of security-related occupation so I'm hoping this degree might help, plus I'm very interested in the curriculum.

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.........

Shammy,

I'm exactly half way through a master's degree in NSS and have had no issues with any of my instructors. That said, Wray Johnson and Steven Greer were particularly instructive in the sense that they offered much substantive criticism and perspective in response to my completed assigments. I felt that they brought much more to the table than simply an academic perspective. You can review their biographies to see why.

I am satisfied with AMU thus far because it has met my objectives. I was looking for something more practical than theoretical and I think this fits the bill. My field is the law so my plan was not to use this degree toward some new profession but rather to enhance my own. I simply wanted a course of instruction that provided me with a big picture view of national security so I could better understand current events and the like.

Completing the program within a year may be a little difficult unless you can pursue it full time. Each of my classes have been fairly labor intensive. There has been quite a bit of reading (almost on par with law school as far as volume goes) and most assignments involve writing. I have taken only one class at a time since I've been enrolled. I am currently on program hold while I pursue an in residence LL.M program over the next year so I won't be able to update you with regard to other professors.

Overall, I'm happy with AMU given my goals. However, if I was entering (or seeking to enhance) a new career I'd probably look to a more traditional school. Good luck.

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

than resident courses because you really have to dig into the subject, vice being spoon fed the cirriculum as some institutions do. ;)

The best part of the coursework is you have even greater flexiblity than when attending conventional "night school." As others have pointed out, it is a lot of reading and paper writing, but I feel that is a better way to grasp the subject vice completing multiple guess on-line tests (of which there are a few in the U-G courses, some even require a proctor).

So I can't recommend AMU enough to anyone who desires to receive a quality military oriented education.

The only downside: no frat parties replete with keg stands. :cool:

[AmericanPride]

Has anyone here enrolled with it? I'm considering enrolling but I'm generally suspect of internet education.

[Ken White]

Has anyone here enrolled with it? I'm considering enrolling but I'm generally suspect of internet education.just below the "Reply to Thread" box at the top left of the page. Type in American Military University and hit 'go.' IIRC there are at least two threads on the School and both have fairly recent comments.

[AmericanPride]

My bad. Thanks for the suggestion.

[selil]

I wanna know why AmericanPride is worried about Internet Education... Just a professorial interest in the why's and where fores.. so to speak.

[Cavguy]

I wanna know why AmericanPride is worried about Internet Education... Just a professorial interest in the why's and where fores.. so to speak.

Also, IIRC American Pride, you're a new (or about to be new) 2LT. Be warned that if you start Master's work or finish a degree, you may make yourself ineligible for the Army funded full-time grad school available to junior CPT's as a retention bonus. Something to think about for the long term.

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

don't look a gift bennie in the mouth. Having the Army send you off to post-grad is much cheaper than footing the bill yourself. :D

However, that being said, AMU might have some courses of interest should you want to fine tune your military education, although it would probably be on your own dime. It does offer some very unique classes and Internet courses, while providing you with a certain flexibility, often put more work upon the student than some "conventional" course work.

You certainly want to make sure that any post-grad work you do doesn't DQ you for any education bennies in the future.

[patmc]

My understanding of the CSRB, captain's bonus, is you are only disqualified for the grad school if you are already enrolled in Advanced Civil Schooling. Also, the Army will not pay for a 2nd degree in the same subject. If you had a masters, or got on on your own, I think you're still eligible for the bonus. As a 2LT you should be too busy to do a grad degree part-time though, but that is a different discussion.

[jkm_101_fso]

As a 2LT you should be too busy to do a grad degree part-time though, but that is a different discussion.

Depends on what OBC and duty station. I wished I would have started my M.A. program as a LT. I'd be done by now.

[AmericanPride]

Just doing some probing actions to explore my actions. Presently, my two primary considerations are: (1) I am not sure of my eligibility for traditional schools. I graduated with a 2.95 GPA (I wasted my first two years :o) and a GRE common score of 1150 (630/530) and written score of 6. (2) My active duty service obligation is only three years. Based on those facts, but not knowing what education benefits are available to me presently, my assessment is that I should complete a graduate program as soon as possible. Of course, active duty limits my options in which programs I can participate.

I'm very much ashamed of my situation because I was not initially selected for active duty during ascensions. Briefly for those not familiar with ROTC: two major components of your rating are your APFT (spring/fall semesters, and LDAC for a total of 15%, of which the LDAC APFT constitutes 75%) and your GPA (40%) which is measured after the fall semester of junior year. Military performance in ROTC is the remaining 45%. All of this is computed in some magical number crunching machine and each cadet is rated nationally. The AD cut-off is relative to the number of cadets in the class that year and available AD slots. I hit just under center mass because of my low LDAC APFT score and my GPA at the time of ascensions. And yes, if you're curious, I know the obvious "lessons learned" of my ascensions experience and I've resolved not to make those mistakes again (BOLC2 and BOLC3 are my next opportunities, FYI). But because of my "referral" to reserve status, I was able to select MI as my basic branch, which I hope to augment with further education (including learning Arabic, Farsi, and/or Russian; currently doing Arabic). So I'm playing catch-up because I did not work as hard I should have earlier, and must now work hard later. I hope to actually catch up by solidly completing a masters program and hitting out of the ball park during my time on AD.

I'm entering AD now through a (new?) program designed (specifically?) for new 2LTs not originally selected for it. After three years, I'll (likely) return to the NG to complete the remainder of my contract. My education assessment is based on the assumption that I will return and remain with the NG and will thus be in the need of some kind of employment. It's also as much a pride thing as it is a practical thing.

[selil]

Well, I know how to get you into a graduate program with those kind of scores, fit, consideration of grades, and all. The graduate program while on active duty is possible but with that price go's up (decreases choice and increases convenience costs). The program you apply to will likely be the biggest determining factor. You asked about AMU it is a good school. If you get serious about grad school let some of us know.

[AmericanPride]

I'm certain on grad school -- it's just a question of when and where. AMU seems like a good option, but if there is a better option elsewhere, I'll of course consider that choice. The appeal for education now, I think, is to be able to transfer between the Army and some kind of other employment (or even staying in the Army) without the interceding delay caused by school if I were to wait. But then again, I don't fully know what's available three years from now in terms of school, financing, etc.

[Cavguy]

Just doing some probing actions to explore my actions. Presently, my two primary considerations are: (1) I am not sure of my eligibility for traditional schools. I graduated with a 2.95 GPA (I wasted my first two years :o) and a GRE common score of 1150 (630/530) and written score of 6. (2) My active duty service obligation is only three years. Based on those facts, but not knowing what education benefits are available to me presently, my assessment is that I should complete a graduate program as soon as possible. Of course, active duty limits my options in which programs I can participate.

<putting mentor hat on>

Here's what my experience tells me about the above.

I was a 2.6 GPA :eek: undergrad who currently is maintaining a 4.0 in Graduate school (Kansas State) :D. Serving in the military comps for a lot with admissions officers, and your GRE scores are reasonably strong.

Would argue against starting grad school. Focus on being a good LT and learning your job. When you deploy to GWOT you won't likely have time for grad school anyway. The other risk is that you get busy enough in grad school you neglect your LT duties, which will negatively impact your evals, which can affect your future employment plans.


I'm very much ashamed of my situation because I was not initially selected for active duty during ascensions.

Okay, beginning the moment you pin on your gold bar, not one thing you did pre-commissioning matters to the people serving around you. None. nada. Distinguished Mil Grad? Doesn't matter. 2.2 GPA? Doesn't matter. 4.0 GPA? Doesn't matter. (* to the Army ;)) What matters is your performance.

The reality is also 99.9% of your year group, regardless of commissioning source, will make CPT in the current environment, and about the same to MAJ at current rates. Over-commissioning may reduce this, but trust me, you have to work at it to be in the bottom 10%. You have every opportunity if you want to stay active for a career. In three years the Army will be begging/bribing you to stay on. Your current accession status will not prevent you from staying on. You don't HAVE to go to the NG. If that's what you want, it's a great route.



I'm entering AD now through a (new?) program designed (specifically?) for new 2LTs not originally selected for it. After three years, I'll (likely) return to the NG to complete the remainder of my contract. My education assessment is based on the assumption that I will return and remain with the NG and will thus be in the need of some kind of employment. It's also as much a pride thing as it is a practical thing.


If your intent is to get out after 3 years, the new GI bill applies to officers as well. (read on it). What many of my peers did is save money while deployed, get out, and go to grad school full time living off of savings. If you stay in, the Army will pay for grad school, and you will be competitive for the full-time programs.

If you do decide to get out, headhunters (Orion, Cameron Brooks, Lucas Group, GE, etc.) will be beating down your door to give you a job, with or without a master's. Seriously, you will get letters from them each week. Many companies they recruit for will pay for you to go to grad school. Former officers are very marketable.

For consideration, depending on what you want to do an AMU degree probably won't be as marketable in the civilian world outside of the security field.

I would hold off on rushing to grad school and make the most of your LT time. You will have plenty of options to get further educated. Platoon Leader and Company Command are the most rewarding jobs in the army. Don't be worried about your accessions, if you do well on active duty you will be rewarded.

Finally, don't do anything that "boxes you in" regarding options, as mentioned above. Sit down with an Army Education Counselor and your commander and make sure you have all the facts before you commit.

Feel free to PM if you want more.

[jkm_101_fso]

I was a 2.6 GPA :eek: undergrad who currently is maintaining a 4.0 in Graduate school (Kansas State)

Go State! Is that a distance program? Is it new? Don't tell me you are driving from FTLV to Manhattan for class!

[selil]

Another mistake many graduate students make is thinking it will just be like under graduate. If it is even close then they are doing it wrong.

[Cavguy]

Go State! Is that a distance program? Is it new? Don't tell me you are driving from FTLV to Manhattan for class!


It's distance (VTC) with Fort Leavenworth. They have Adult Ed and Security Studies offered here. Both also have a distance PhD option. There are other schools with programs as well, as with most posts.

[AmericanPride]

Thanks for the information and advice everyone. I'm going to hold of on a decision until I complete MIOBC and settle into my first assignment.

[davidoff]

I am a quarter of the way through the curriculum for the NSS MA. So far I have found it to be excellent in that it covers a great deal of materiel, all of which is required for a rudimentary understanding of the topic. However, I am sure that this program may fall short for someone who has extensive experience studying or working in the field of military strategy(military academy or war college grads). For me, the program and degree will provide a foot in the door and is not meant to supplement prior experience or field-related education.

On the negative side, the professors are very capable and experienced; but how much you get out of them is really up to you and their schedule. Also, I have a friend in another AMU graduate program and he has stated similar concerns with little or no feedback and automatic grading; but I have not yet experienced this.

In the end AMU is one of very few to offer these degree programs and online learning is one forum where you really do get back what you put in.

About working and doing school. It is hard, in numerous ways, especially if you have a family or other obligations. However, it will almost always be beneficial and it is unlikely that you will later regret it.

[Bodhi]

I finished my MA in the UW/SOLIC concentration from AMU a few years ago, and like most in this thread who have studied with AMU, I was pleased with the quality of the program. I started with AMU in the Spring of 1996, but it took me a while to finally complete the degree due to the typical deployments, PCS, other resident schools, etc. Throughout the entire process, though, AMU was extremely accomodating of my schedule requirements, and I found the profs to be very solid. There is enough diversity within their faculty to keep courses really interesting. Profs from essentially an exclusively military world meshed well with those with a more traditional academic background.
I'll echo the sentiments of those who state that students get exactly what they put into the courses; AMU operates under "Big Boy" rules, so I don't recommend this place to anyone who needs to be prodded along with their studies. However, most folks who pursue a degree with AMU are probably at a point in their life where they are self-motivated, so such prodding is probably not even an issue.
Perhaps the best aspect of AMU from my perspective, though, is that I've been able to apply my AMU MA directly to aspects of my career, sometimes even applying the lessons of a particular course as I was actually taking it. The degree has complemented other degrees and PME that I've received, and the fact that the military picked up the vast majority of the tab certainly adds to the attractiveness of the program. The military paid just about all of my tuition; I just paid for the books.
All in all, I was quite pleased with the program I took, and I enjoyed the give and take with the instructors and the other students. When I finally received my degree, I certainly did not feel like I was part of a diploma factory; I definitely felt I had earned that thing. I obviously continue to recommend AMU to all who are genuinely interested in pursuing additional studies.

[CR6]

Just finished my AMU degree (as in I wrapped up the comp exam 4 hours ago just finished) and I second his statements regarding affordability, the faculty, and the school's willingness to work with a guy whose schedule requires some flexibility.

[Chk6]

CR6 could you lend me some insight as to how you prepared for the AMU Comprehensive Exam. I am now enrolled to start the class in January 09. It has been a long and interrupted road, about 12 years, but I will be glad to finally see it done and over with. Any insight as to what worked well and what din not for you preparations would be greatly appreciated.

[CR6]

PM sent

[AmericanPride]

I enrolled in AMU for a National Security Studies degree. :cool:

[jkm_101_fso]

I enrolled in AMU for a National Security Studies degree. :cool:

I'm halfway through it if you need anything or have questions. PM me.

[AmericanPride]

Thanks jkm. I'll be starting with the research analysis and US national security courses. I intend to do two at a time (possibly three depending on the workload).

[porkchop]

hello everyone,

I have a quick question for everyone, I am considering transferring out of AMU, for fear of the school not being recognized in positive light when I apply in the intelligence field. From what I have seen there are not many schools out there that you can recieve an intelligence degree from. Anyone have any advice on which school would be better, and is it common practice for any companies to hire while you are still pursuing the degree. Would like to start gaining experience as soon as possible. Sorry for the trifle questions, just figured you guys may have some answers.

Warmest,
Porkchop

[davidbfpo]

Porkchop,

I suggest you have a look via Google for Dr Steve Marrin, he is one of the leading academics in this field and there is a large academic studies association in the USA. IIRC Mercyhurst College is where he is, or maybe another place that advertises courses?

I am in the UK and we do have several, long running courses if your US$ can stretch that far.

davidbfpo

[skiguy]

Porkchop, what do you base this fear on? I though AMUs reputation was regarded rather highly in DOD and Intel.
OT-I changed majors from Intel Studies to History only because I fear I won't qualify for a security clearance (plus I find Thucydides incredibly interesting).

[Xenophon]

I've decided to wait on doing a Master's at AMU and apply for the Marine Corps' Special Education Program during my second fleet tour. But, I am going to take AMU Master's courses to bolster my educational record for that application. I'm just deciding whether to get a graduate certificate or just take a few courses under the Legal Studies MA Program.

[Ski]

Just received my Master's Diploma last week. Very good. One more to go...another five months...

[Cavguy]

I've decided to wait on doing a Master's at AMU and apply for the Marine Corps' Special Education Program during my second fleet tour.

Is that really the name for it?!?!? Plays into many, many USMC related jokes if so. :D:D

[jmm99]

I have no idea of the rigor attached to this program (it expressly disclaims any equivalence to a JD, etc.). That having been said, here is my analysis (for what it might be worth).

From AMU Master of Arts in Legal Studies (http://www.amu.apus.edu/academic/programs/degree/1384/master-of-arts-in-legal-studies) (also can be reached from the main Legal Sudies page (http://www.amu.apus.edu/legal-studies/index.htm)):


Core Requirements(24 Hours)

LSTD502 Criminal Law 3 hours·
This course focuses on the fundamental principals, concepts, and development of criminal law and the constitutional provisions which govern it. ....

LSTD503 Criminal Justice Process 3 hours·
This course addresses the specific constitutional rights, including the fourth, fifth and sixth amendments as those that have a direct impact on the defendant and prosecution in the judicial process. ...

LSTD504 Methods of Legal Research and Writing I 3 hours·
Part one of this graduate level two-part intensive legal writing program is designed to develop students’ research and writing skills. Students will learn and practice the skills necessary for identifying, locating, and using legal resources, including primary sources of administrative, statutory, and case law; secondary authority; and research reference tools, to include computer research tools, commonly used in the practice of law. Students will also explore the process of legal analysis, incorporating the results of their legal research into correspondence, case briefs, legal memoranda, and motions.

LSTD505 Methods of Legal Research and Writing II 3 hours·
Part two of a two-part graduate level intensive legal writing program is designed to develop students’ research and writing skills. ...

LSTD506 Property Law 3 hours·
This graduate course is an introduction to real property concepts. The course surveys present and future estates in land, ownership, and concurrent ownership....

LSTD508 Contract Law 3 hours·
This graduate course is designed to introduce students to the concepts and sources of contract law. This course evaluates the various components of a legally binding agreement or promise and surveys the major issues affecting such enforceable agreements. Students will examine what constitutes breach of contract and the remedies available. The role of contracts in the commercial arena and in society will also be analyzed.

LSTD509 Tort Law 3 hours·
This graduate course will focus on the fundamental principles, concepts, and development of tort and personal injury law, while combining theoretical and practical applications of such principles and concepts....

LSTD510 Constitutional Law 3 hours·
This graduate course will explore advanced principles, doctrines and controversies regarding the structure of and division of powers in American government. Specific topics include judicial review, jurisdiction, standing to sue, federalism, federal and state powers and immunities, the separation of powers among the branches of the federal government, the First Amendment, and the Equal Protection Clause.

The substantive law courses (all except Methods of Legal Research and Writing I & II) correspond almost exactly with the first year courses (plus a summer school) I took at Michigan Law in the 1960s. It's surprising how much of Contracts, Property and Torts supply the bases for International and Comparative Law. The worth of Criminal Law and Procedure, and of Constitutional Law are obvious.

We had no formal "Methods of Legal Research and Writing". However, there were informal equivalents if you could make the cut: Law Review, Campbell (Moot Court) Competition, or doing research for pay or glory (;)). The formal classes seem to me a good thing if they result in some appreciation for the practitioner's side of law.

As to the Options, I like these:


Major Requirements(9 Hours)

IRLS611 Conflict Analysis and Resolution: Theory and Practice 3 hours·
The course will consider the rationalist approach to conflict analysis, along with other theoretical approaches to international relations theory. It will examine the generic nature of conflict, whether between individuals or nations. It also directly addresses international conflict, its origins, discernible patterns, routine components, range of outcomes, and modes of conflict prevention or amelioration. Conflict resolution theory will be applied to various cases of contemporary conflict among nations. Students will develop a thorough awareness of the origins of conflict, various approaches to conflict analysis and resolution, as well as strategies for conflict prevention.

LSTD507 International Law 3 hours·
The course is designed to introduce students to the concepts and sources of international law that evaluate the various components, processes, and functions of the international legal process and consider how international law impacts the laws within the United States. Additionally, the current state of the international legal order is reviewed with legal opinions regarding major philosophies, components and current practices and problems of the field of international law.

LSTD511 Independent Study in Legal Studies 3 hours·
This Independent Study is an opportunity for Legal Studies graduate students to pursue an independent research project under the mentorship and discretion of a faculty member. The course requires a major research paper; there will be no examination. Students will submit a request to take the independent study to the Registrar and will include the name of a faculty with whom they have coordinated. Prior to registering, students should first contact the professor with whom they wish to mentor their independent study, coordinate an agreement on the grading requirements, and then NOTIFY their Student Advisor with the name of their professor. The final approval to take the independent study will be made by the Program Director.

LSTD530 Islamist Lawfare 3 hours·
This graduate course is a study of the Islamist movement that seeks to impose tenets of Islam and Sha'aria via “legal jihad”. Students will analyze litigation in American courts and abroad against those who speak out against or write about radical Islam. Legal issues such as free speech, forum shopping, “libel tourism,” and anti-SLAPP statutes will be studied. Students will examine the cumulative effects such litigation has on the global war on terror.

LSTD535 Law of Armed Conflict 3 hours·
This graduate course is a study of the law of armed conflict in terms of attempts to define, regulate, and mitigate the conduct of individuals, nations, and other agents in war. Students will analyze the historical development and judicial theories surrounding the subject. Legal principles such as the use of force, development and utilization of weapons, individual protections, and criminal responsibility will be examined. Students will also evaluate case law and international treaties on the topic.

LSTD539 The Federal Rules of Evidence 3 hours·
This graduate course will examine the rules governing the admission, exclusion, and presentation of evidence in judicial proceedings. The law of evidence governs the proof of facts and the inferences flowing from such facts during the trial of civil and criminal lawsuits. Topics to be covered in this course include relevance; authentication; categorical rules of exclusion; character and habit evidence; witness qualification, competency, and examination; privileges; the “Best Evidence” rule; the hearsay rule and its exceptions; judicial notice; burdens of proof and presumptions; impeachment and rehabilitation of witnesses; and appellate review of evidentiary rulings.

PADM611 Law and Public Policy 3 hours·
There is a complex, ongoing interaction between law and public policy in the United States, and with renewed emphasis on deregulation, decentralization, downsizing and reengineering, there is an increasing awareness that public policy, and the administrative law system that manages it, are subject to intensifying political and cultural pressures. The attempt to solve social issues by new laws and regulations has created results that were often unforeseen and has led to increased attacks on the administrative law process in the courts and in legislative chambers. These constant changes have made this a difficult time for public managers. This course examines the sources, operation and consequence of such changes on the law and public policy formation, and analyzes public policy initiatives from political and legal aspects as to their intentions, achievable aims, and intended and unintended outcomes.

If forced to select 9 credits, I'd go with International Law, Islamist Lawfare and Law of Armed Conflict.

The capstone seems similar to the Independent Study optional course:


Final Program Requirement (3 Hours)

LSTD520 Master's Capstone in Legal Studies 3 hours·
Preparation for the Legal Studies research seminar begins on day one of a student's graduate program of study. The theories, research methods and analytical skills, and substantive knowledge obtained through their master's curriculum provide the basis for the research seminar project. ...

On its face, this seems like a decent program - roughly equivalent to 2 years of law school in terms of course content.

Good luck in its pursuit.

And, Niel, Marine "Special Education" - and all similar taglines (e.g., from Polarbear1605: "Now Mike, just keep it simple; remember, I'm a Marine.") - are all part of the Corps' "stealth jihad" program to lull the Big Army into complacency. :D

Regards

Mike

[Schmedlap]

JMM,

I would offer a slightly different angle. I've taken courses that dealt with legal topics in graduate school (contracts, torts, property, secured transactions, agency, partnerships, corporate law). I've also taken each of those classes in law school. The course descriptions were very similar, but the approaches were fundamentally different.

The graduate approach is to familiarize students with basic concepts and to apply them, with the intent of being able to interact intelligently with a legal professional. For example, in business school, the goal was for students to better interact with their in-house counsel. There is little to no emphasis on understanding how the law evolved, how to attempt to change it, and we never read a single case.

In law school, as you surely recall, it is the exact opposite. The semester generally begins with older cases that have been overturned in whole or in part, followed by the landmark cases that caused the changes, and analysis of the issues in each case, with the intent of the students being able to "spot issues" in any given scenario and argue each side of the issue to make an assessment of how the law is likely to be interpreted and whether/how to approach it.

By analogy, the former would be equivalent to getting a class on how to select a lawyer, how to prepare for a meeting with him, and what services you can reasonably expect from him. The latter would be equivalent to learning how to address clients' legal needs, how to extract necessary information from them to fully analyze the issues relevant to their situations, and what you can expect to do for them.

That said, in looking at the core curriculum that you posted, I don't know why a person wouldn't just go to law school. It would probably open more doors and, as you noted, it is very similar to most 1L curricula. Why anybody would subject themselves to the tedium of those courses without getting a JD in return is beyond me. After the 1L year, students can take whatever courses their hearts desire, to include those listed (though my school, I'll admit, does not offer a course on "Islamist warfare" but there are equally enlightening and interested courses to choose from that have an international flavor to them).

I do agree with your overall analysis that it looks like a good program, though.

[jmm99]

As to this, you presume too much:


from S
In law school, as you surely recall, it is the exact opposite.

and for breakfast this morning, I had ??? :D

Seriously, I agree with your analysis:


The graduate approach is to familiarize students with basic concepts and to apply them, with the intent of being able to interact intelligently with a legal professional. For example, in business school, the goal was for students to better interact with their in-house counsel. There is little to no emphasis on understanding how the law evolved, how to attempt to change it, and we never read a single case.

but it does depend on how the classes are taught - case by case analysis, etc.

That having been said, I was never fond of the typical Socratic case by case approach, and had a hell of a time with it. Fortunately, I found the wonderful world of hornbooks, which gave me the needed perspective and overview to "ace" first year.

As to a JD, I don't know whether there are schools equivalent to AMU that offer that. Also, there is the purpose for which the courses are taken - unless you want to be a practicing lawyer (civilian or military), a JD is just fancy window dressing. Nice window dressing though. It's worked for a few generals.

One way to approach AMU Legal Studies (which may well be a liaison type program as you mentioned) would be to try a few courses. In the Core, the two Criminal Law and Procedure courses, and the Constitutional Law course, would be my choice for starters. All fit into background for the UCMJ. Then follow up with International Law, Islamist Lawfare and Law of Armed Conflict.

So, a number of choices.

Regards

Mike

[Xenophon]

Is that really the name for it?!?!? Plays into many, many USMC related jokes if so.

Yeah I know. Probably why they rarely have enough applicants to fill their quota.

I very much appreciate the analysis of the program, and I understand the reasoning of "Why do the work without getting a JD?" My reasoning went like this. Since the SEP program only accepts applicants for Technical or History programs, I HAVE to do my History M.A. through that program. So, to bolster my academic record, I'm going to "diversify" and take some non-history courses. My next interest after History is Law, but I have no desire or plans to ever practice. So, legal studies looks interesting and I can afford it/get accepted into it/have the time to do it.