June 25, 1876

[Rifleman]

131 years ago today George Custer lost a small war.

[SteveMetz]

131 years ago today George Custer lost a small war.


What was strange about that one was that we lost the battle and won the war. Now we do the inverse.

[Rifleman]

Yeah, I know that's accurate. But it just sounded like a good one liner, this being the small wars board and all. ;)

On a serious note, I wonder if what we won was worth it. The reservation system and lots of social ills came with pacifying the tribes and having the land open for settlement. I guess it was probably worth it, but the victory came with a price tag that's still being paid today.

[FascistLibertarian]

Like it could have been stopped.

Population demographics made it unlikely that anything else would happen.

How could the Indians have stopped the White people?

Why would the White people not take the land?

[VinceC]

To a large extent, federal troops were on the frontier in a classic peacekeeping/peacemaking mission -- to provide security while enforcing treaty obligations on both parties and mitigating excesses by either the Native Americans or the White people encroaching on Native lands. White expansion was inevitable, and the position of the Washington government was that it could not be halted, only channeled and, to some extent, regulated by force.

The federal troops clearly weren't neutral. But the most successful soldiers were those who were able to adapt their mindset away from large-scale Civil War battles and adopt classic counter-insurgency strengths such as cultural awareness and respect for the motives of the local population, as well as an appreciation that "soft power" and persuasion can often be more effective than massed firepower.

[TROUFION]

I highly recommend an old book recently re-released, the narrative is decent but the tale it tells is extraordinary. I noted the reference to Federal troops and it reminded me of this book. The book is TWO GREAT SCOUTS & THEIR PAWNEE BATTALION, The experiences of Frank J. North and Luther H. North by George Bird Grinnell. UNiversity of Nebraska Press. Origionally Published in 1928.

It is the story of the Pawnee Scouts a unique US Army battalion of about 100 Pawnee Indians from 1864-1877. They acted as scouts, and soldiers during the major Plains Indian wars and were highly prized by Gen's Crook, Carr, MacKenzie and Augur. The Battalion was organized and lead by by Frank North.

It provides an interesting outlook on the value and versatility of local forces with specialist advisors/commanders and a valuable insight to the Plains Indian Wars.

[goesh]

"But the most successful soldiers were those who were able to adapt their mindset away from large-scale Civil War battles and adopt classic counter-insurgency strengths such as cultural awareness and respect for the motives of the local population, as well as an appreciation that "soft power" and persuasion can often be more effective than massed firepower." (VinceC)

Most fascinating to me were the free trappers who for a very brief time roamed all over Indian country in small groups, even solitary individuals, amidst some extremely hostile and lethal enemies in sheer wilderness conditions, a massive expanse of land totally unknown to Anglo society of the East. They adopted Indian ways, even elements of Native spirituality, learned the languages and made it a point to understand the cultures they interacted with and fought with. They often married Indian women and many wore buckskin like the Indians. They had no logistical support and reserve forces to call on. There has to be a very strong sense of self-assurance and trust in one's capabilities to have COIN skills mastered like that - sort of like being lost in the woods with a rifle, axe, knife, poncho, space blanket, small first aid kid, matches, etc. I think of a paternal grandfather of mine, who with the famous Kentucky scout Simon Kenton and another man went on a scouting mission deep into Shawnee country on foot at the request of Daniel Boone. What triggers the COIN analogy is the fact that they felt so confident in their knowledge and skills that they actually did some horse stealing while they were deep in Indian country. That is about impossible to imagine from today's perspective. Does technology in any way inhibit the development of the COIN mindset and attitude(s)? We know technology helps in many ways and is indespensable but there are always 2 sides to any coin, pun intended.

[Culpeper]

Based on the archeology of the site Custer separated his company. It was overwhelmed and turned into a rout rather quickly. Reno was a little more fortunate and Benteen showed up a day late and a dollar short. Custer's scouting of his part of the battle showed a long, very long, encampment. Still he scouted ahead to try and block off the women and children that were swarming towards the areas of least resistance. By the time Custer returned to regroup his Co. it was all over but the crying. What goes around comes around. I think only one dude from the Co. survived. An Italian sent off to get a message to Benteen to get his ass in gear.

Also, in this particular battle the Indians had better repeating firearms than the Cav. Both Custer and Reno where blistered with withering fire from the Indians.

[Steve Blair]

Actually the number of repeating weapons in the hands of the Indians was fairly low. There were a number of factors that contributed to the defeat of the 7th. First, the unit had not operated together for almost 5 years. About half the regiment had been engaged in Reconstruction duties and had only recently reassembled for the 1876 campaign. Second, Custer had a habit of dividing his forces during Indian campaigns. Unlike Mackenzie, who kept his regiment concentrated in all his campaigns, Custer didn't seem to understand the advantage a focused mass of troops would give him against a foe that tended to fight as individual warriors. There were also a fair number of new recruits in the 7th, and the quality of the officers tended to be uneven. Unlike Mackenzie (who demanded competence from his officer corps), Custer seemed more interested in personal loyalty. Since he wasn't the actual commander of the 7th I suspect this contributed more than is generally recognized to the regiment's problems. Finally, I also tend to believe that Custer was either killed or seriously wounded in the early moments of the battle. His battalion went to pieces very quickly, much more so than one would expect if Custer had been in command. He had a habit (shown early in his Civil War career) of leading from the very front and charging anything he came across, and this might have been the time that "Custer's Luck" ran out early.

There is a stubborn insistence on portraying the battle as Custer lasting to the very end and being killed in a glorious way as the final rush of Sioux pass over his command. I think this is bollocks. For one, the Sioux weren't even aware that they were fighting Custer until later (he'd had his hair cut before the campaign and wasn't immediately recognizable to them). It's also foolish to think that Custer's brother and his command group would leave his body where he fell. They'd bring him with them, hoping for rescue or to fight their way out. But if Custer was out of action from the start of the fight, the way the 7th came apart makes more sense.

Short version: he ran into superior numbers without proper planning. Based on his limited Frontier experience he assumed the Indians were running. Ignoring the advice of his scouts, he pressed on, divided his force in the presence of superior numbers, and got his ass kicked.

[Tom Odom]

What was strange about that one was that we lost the battle and won the war. Now we do the inverse.


To add clarity and context to Steve's comment, let me offer an anecdote from a mutual friend, Dr. S J Lewis who retired from CSI a few years ago. It seems a certain 4-star general asked for a personal staff ride to the Little Big Horn and Sam's office mate, a Major got the mission.

A dedicated historian and one with a strong interest in this particular battle, the Major reviewed his sources and laid out how he would present the staff ride. The big day came and off went the Major with the 4-Star and the trailing entourage. It seemed to be going well. The 4-star seemed pleased so the entourage looked pleased (and relieved). The 4-Star nodded knowingly and so did the entourage, heads bobbing in sequence like a military version of a "wave" in a football game.

Near the end to the staff ride as the Major related how Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse overwhelmed Custer and his men, the 4-Star stopped the briefing to ask this question in ernest:

"Tell me Major, were those Sioux organized in platoons or companies?"

Tom

[Culpeper]

The firearms analyses has verified 47 different types of guns used by the warriors. A forty-eighth weapon is represented by metal arrowheads, showing that the stereotypical bow and arrow was also used. By using modern crime laboratory firearms identification techniques it was possible to discover that a minimum number of 415 guns were used by the Indians.

Indian arms included the .44 caliber Henry, .44 caliber Model 1866 Winchester, and the .44/.40 caliber Model 1873 Winchester, all repeating rifles. The army in 1876 did not issue repeating rifles


Firearms used by the Indians at Little Big Horn (http://www.nps.gov/history/mwac/libi/firearm.html)

[phil b]

Indianapolis Colts' kicker Adam Vinatieri, (http://www.nfl.com/insider/story/6069657)


is the great, great grandson of Felix Vinatieri, an Italian-born musician and composer who served three years as bandmaster for general George Custer. Felix, who settled in Yankton, South Dakota after serving two stints in the U.S. Army, performed for Custer one night in 1873. The general was so impressed he asked him to join the regiment.

Although Felix accompanied Custer on many journeys through the West (the general loved music and thought it was good for his troops' morale), he and the band were safely in the rear during the ill-fated 1876 trip to Little Big Horn. That was where Custer and 210 members of Custer's Seventh Cavalry were killed. Felix returned to Yankton, where he died of natural causes in 1891.

While accompanying Custer's 1874 expedition to the Black Hills, (http://www.gillettenewsrecord.com/articles/2007/06/24/news/news01.txt)


The Italian bandmaster Felix Vinatieri...directed his mostly German 16-member band to strike up “Garry Owen,” an Irish quickstep that served as the official air of the American regiment. Later on the journey, Vinatieri directed the band to play “The Girl I Left Behind Me,” a frontier army favorite, which echoed off the walls of the Floral Valley.

[slapout9]

Johnny Horton sings Comanche the Brave Horse and the alleged only survivor of the Little Big Horn. Here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhzfE3sCUmo

[Culpeper]

Short version: he ran into superior numbers without proper planning. Based on his limited Frontier experience he assumed the Indians were running. Ignoring the advice of his scouts, he pressed on, divided his force in the presence of superior numbers, and got his ass kicked.

I would also add that Crook didn't hook up with Custer as he should had done after Rosebud Creek. But something happened to his scouts. They actually saved Crook's ass but didn't want to continue on. Bad medicine. Turns out they were correct. Jumping out of history into fiction I love the book and movie, "Little Big Man", with Dustin Hoffman as Jack Crabb, the lone survivor of the Battle of Little Big Horn.


Jack Crabb: General, you go down there.
General Custer: You're advising me to go into the Coulee?
Jack Crabb: Yes sir.
General Custer: There are no Indians there, I suppose.
Jack Crabb: I didn't say that. There are thousands of Indians down there. And when they get done with you, there won't be nothing left but a greasy stain. This ain't the Wa####e River, General, and them ain't helpless women and children waiting for you. They're Cheyenne brave, and Sioux. You go down there, General, if you've got the nerve.
General Custer: Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!

[Culpeper]

Johnny Horton sings Comanche the Brave Horse and the alleged only survivor of the Little Big Horn. Here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhzfE3sCUmo

That's right! I forgot about the horse.

http://www.custerslaststand.org/source/comanche.html

Old Custer Joke:


This discussion reminds me of the old joke about a woman whose husband was a
big fan of Custer and who wanted to give him a painting of Custer's last
stand for his birthday.

When it was unveiled at his birthday party she was appalled because it had a
picture of cow with a halo and pictures of hundreds of Indians screwing.

She then told the painter that she would not pay him since that was not what
she had asked him to paint.

He replied that he was just trying to paint the picture from Custer's
perspective which was, "Holy cow. Look at all those f*cking Indians."

[Steve Blair]

I would also add that Crook didn't hook up with Custer as he should had done after Rosebud Creek. But something happened to his scouts. They actually saved Crook's ass but didn't want to continue on. Bad medicine. Turns out they were correct. Jumping out of history into fiction I love the book and movie, "Little Big Man", with Dustin Hoffman as Jack Crabb, the lone survivor of the Battle of Little Big Horn.

It was also Crook himself who delayed the move, not just his scouts. He'd gotten his ass handed to him along the Rosebud, and didn't bother to tell anyone else about it. His failure to communicate with the northern column until after the LBH was one of his greater failings during that entire campaign. Crook might have done well against the Apaches (and I believe that he was building on a foundation he found when he got to Arizona), but he floundered badly against the larger Plains tribes.

[Culpeper]

Steve

You seem well-versed on the subject. Have you written anything about this period?

[Steve Blair]

I had an article come out in Military History of the West a year or so back about the operations of the Fourth Cavalry in 1874, and I'm working on one (off and on) about the 8th Cavalry in Arizona between 1867 and 1870. These guys really set the stage for Crook's later successes in Arizona (right down to some of the operational patterns) and get overlooked all the time.

The Frontier Army is perhaps my favorite historical subject (followed closely by Vietnam and some facets of World War II). Not as well-versed as some, but I can hold my own...:)

[Culpeper]

I had an article come out in Military History of the West a year or so back about the operations of the Fourth Cavalry in 1874, and I'm working on one (off and on) about the 8th Cavalry in Arizona between 1867 and 1870. These guys really set the stage for Crook's later successes in Arizona (right down to some of the operational patterns) and get overlooked all the time.

The Frontier Army is perhaps my favorite historical subject (followed closely by Vietnam and some facets of World War II). Not as well-versed as some, but I can hold my own...:)

Ah, thanks for sharing. The Battle of Little Big Horn caught my fascination in about 4th grade. It's was my first venture into the study of small wars.:wry: I read every book on the topic that was available at the library. My classmates were reading Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys books. I was some sort of freak. Listening to Elton John instead of the Partridge Family and reading up on the Plains Wars.

[120mm]

I had an article come out in Military History of the West a year or so back about the operations of the Fourth Cavalry in 1874, and I'm working on one (off and on) about the 8th Cavalry in Arizona between 1867 and 1870. These guys really set the stage for Crook's later successes in Arizona (right down to some of the operational patterns) and get overlooked all the time.

The Frontier Army is perhaps my favorite historical subject (followed closely by Vietnam and some facets of World War II). Not as well-versed as some, but I can hold my own...:)

"I led you in here, and I will lead you out."

R.S. MacKenzie is one of my favorite, all-time studies in leadership. I became interested in Fourth Cavalry History when I was the Third Squadron historian. How about you?

[Steve Blair]

Mackenzie is a deeply fascinating individual, and an example of one of the talented officers who rose without clear political patrons (Custer had Sheridan, Miles had Sherman, Crook had a combination, and so on). I blundered into him some years back when I got my hands on a piece of historical fiction about the Remolino raid (by 'Red' Reeder...can't remember the title offhand although I still have it somewhere) and just never stopped researching. Actually working on a novel about him in my spare time...along with other projects.

Mackenzie is especially noteworthy for the low number of casualties he suffered in his operations. In fact, his highest losses came when he had to support Crook in the later part of the Great Sioux War. He never divided his forces, trained his men and officers hard (something he picked up from Upton in the Civil War), and seemed to have a good, almost instinctive, grasp of Indian warfare. He tolerated no cliques in his officer corps, weeded out the bad ones, and tried his best to get his good officers promoted. His men considered him a hard ass, but they'd also follow him anywhere.

[120mm]

MacKenzie was the Anti-Sanchez.

I learned about good ole' Ranald Slidell from one of the best leaders I've ever met in the Army, COL(ret) David L. Porter. Being raised from a young pup, at the knee of Porter, and reading about MacKenzie, ruined me for life. I have become extremely intolerant of managers in uniform.

My favorite quote attributed to R.S. MacKenzie, upon being made the youngest Corps Commander in U.S. History during the Civil War, at the tender age of 23:

"It's about time."

It's somewhat interesting to note that he had an ignoble ending. Nevertheless, my youngest is named after him.

[Steve Blair]

There's still some reasonable debate about Mackenzie's "end." Conventional historical thought had him going insane due to syphilis...while more recent analysis (headed by Charles Robinson) attributes his insanity to PTSD. I'm actually in the Robinson camp on this one. There is no real contemporary discussion of syphilis with Mackenzie (and he was unpopular enough with other officers that there would have been mention of it somewhere), and he certainly had other signs of PTSD. Combine that with the sunstroke he suffered as a child and the picture of his last days becomes a very sad thing. I honestly think he was one of those officers who gave everything he had to the Army (including his sanity at the end of the day).