Baby Boomers and the 9/11 Generation

[SWJED]

In the Weekly Standard William Kristol describes the Baby Boomers (generally accepted in the U.S. as those born between 1946 and 1964) as the Not-So-Great Generation (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/367tivpc.asp).

Towards the end he compares the Boomers with the 9/11 Generation (excerpted below).

Read the following and then vote on whether you agree with his description or not.


America's hopes for the future rest mostly with the 9/11 generation. Despite their unfortunate propensity so far to vote Democratic, these young men and women will, I believe, turn out to be far more impressive than we boomers who begat them. It would of course be a fitting fate, after all the soaring rhetoric about the boomers, if they turned out to be basically a parenthesis. They may go down in history as occupying space between the generation that won World War II and presided over a relatively successful second-half of the twentieth century, and the 9/11 generation that will deal with the threats the boomers neglected during that quintessential boomer decade, the '90s. It is the 9/11 generation that will have to construct and maintain a new American century. The best we boomers can do now is help them get started on the job. Meanwhile, the experience of the boomers should hearten us: America is such a great country that it will end up surviving even a not-so-great generation.

[goesh]

The political activism that generated and sustained the Civil Rights movement, for starters, I offer up as but one example to the contrary of Kristol's assertion. We could throw in things like Watergate and the demise of the kKK as well but who appreciates ancient history these days? Said political clout still manifests and will be shown to outlast such campy things as the Deaniacs, Move On and the latest groupie phenomenon associated with Obama. Then there is the economic stability provided by this large demographic bump over the past few decades. I wish the 9/11ers well with globalization and the starry-eyed notions of the world as just one village - they can't even understand the likes of Bin Laden let alone come to grips with the challenges his mentality presents, waffling as they do between Jurisprudence and a kinder, gentler, tech-driven military being the answer to the problem. That said, I'll have a nip of Geritol, send off a hefty political donation to the GOP out of spite and retire to bed, knowing world peace and prosperity is at hand with the advent of the 9/11 generation soon to be standing tall at the helm.

[selil]

Baby boomers....

They were born from the greatest generation. Their parents lived through depression, fought in an enormous war, and built the American economy and industry. The parents of the baby boomers created the American dream and then spoiled it into delirium that became their children.

The baby boomers grew up in the 1960's. Fought the man and gave their lives for civil rights, voters acts, reduced the drinking age, and created an enormous body of laws by civil disobdedience to garner more rights.

The baby boomers fought for a "summer of love", said don't trust anybody over 30. Burned their draft cards. Protested against those same parents who gave them a decade of wealth and created "The Man" who put them down.

The baby boomers can never be forgiven for their worst abomination. Disco. The 70's were the decade of drugs, sex, white suits and bad drug films. Excess of everything clashed with good sense and excess won. Who can fight the monster of baby boomers? Do more drugs. What do those tight wads know and LSD is good stuff.

The generation of excess grew into the decade of "Just say no". The 1980's and uncle Ronnie will fight the scourge while it's bed time for Bonzo. So simple. We'll have a war on drugs, on poverty, and anything else we disagree with. The baby boomers got religion and everybody else better sit down and listen. We can export the American way and by the way greed is good. Sell the souls of our children for a BMW? Does it have a sunroof? I'll take one in blue. Everybody got an MBA and the most educated generation on the planet gave up on civil rights and started making everything illegal. MADD? Let's turn civic consciousness into rights removing and the strawmen of logic. While the baby boomers made all their previous defining mistakes illegal and immoral in the same breath.

Then we have the 90's. The baby boomers who had parents who stayed home with them, and few of them saw mom go to work, go on to create an economic trojan horse. Their children grow up in day care and go off to college as baggage only to show up for office parties trotted out like the new Mercedes in the garage. The baby boomers who are the most educated generation ever in the history of the world weren't listening when their parents taught them about sacrifice. Where the baby boomers went to college on the cheap their money mismanagement left their children the most leveraged generation.

A twist of fate and the baby boomers enter their 60 with the turn of the millennium. Of course the most pandered to generation has tried to say that 60 is the new 30. No it's not it's freaking 60 and get over the gray hair. The children of the baby boomers are the maligned gen X'rs forgotten as children by their parents who were late for the country club appointment. Disabused by the excess and politics of societal control the X'rs bare children to a hostile world and the millennials will likely be the janitor generation.

The cacophony response to criticism of the baby boomers is to call their children whiny, self serving, slackers who have no clue about their great deeds. The baby boomers set out to take the man down and become a hundred times worst. Where their parents gave them everything and boomers denigrated them. The boomers have given their children nothing except debt, pollution, international drama, the foreign policy created for the most selfish reasons and all at the expense of anybody else but them.

The millenials have to fight for everything. They fight the wars for the boomers. They fight for economics ruined in the excess of domestic and military spending brought on by boomers fears. The millenials fight for their rights in a plutocracy of misdeeds and special interests. The greatest generation is the one that is cleaning up after the boomers and the apathetic X'rs. While the boomers whine about how they did so much they forget how they've basically undone everything they did in their fears of getting old. History won't be kind because the truth is that with all of the great people who were boomers the generation itself wasn't a boom. The generation called boomers were a dud. But, the x'rs and millennials rarely whine about the childish and selfish boomers. They know they will be the ones staffing the nursing homes and holding the reigns when the last boomer dies and the work of rebuilding a country begins. Hopefully the millenials don't make the same mistake their grandparents did.

[Mark O'Neill]

I am not at all sure that this is a 'useful' exercise. It smacks a bit of popular culture rather than serious social analysis. I have some sympathy for some of the views in the piece, but then consider that the boomers were the folks who fought the Vietnam War, brought us the internet, globalisation, equality of the sexes, saw off the end of the Cold War (which, arguably the same folks who saw off Hitler brought us), finished off segregation and the eradication of several quite bad diseases.

I have to conclude that it is not their 'fault' that they were never given quite the same opportunity to 'shine' as their parents because the tyrants (Hitler et al) had already departed.

Ultimately, I think that it is my view that every generation has its faults, it appears callow to pick at those before us, and we should not be surprised if those who follow us do the same thing.

Regards,

Mark

[tequila]

Victory in the Cold War and the service of Vietnam veterans make an abundant lie of Kristol's generalization.

Perhaps Kristol's account properly reflects the estimation of those Boomers like himself, who had the opportunity to serve but ultimately had other priorities, compared to those today who volunteer --- but I for one would not want to be compared next to any of the men who held Khe Sanh or cleared Hue City (had the pleasure of meeting some of those gentlemen this past 10 Nov).

[SteveMetz]

Disco

Seriously, though, seriously, I know Bill, like him, and often agree with him. But as I finish the third scrub on my book chapter dealing with the decision to intervene in Iraq in which he plays a significant role, I am forced to ask: How does he have ANY credibility left after being so patently wrong so many times on THAT issue?

[tequila]

Disco

Seriously, though, seriously, I know Bill, like him, and often agree with him. But as I finish the third scrub on my book chapter dealing with the decision to intervene in Iraq in which he plays a significant role, I am forced to ask: How does he have ANY credibility left after being so patently wrong so many times on THAT issue?

Pundit immunity.

For some reason, our professional class of media loudmouths is never held accountable for when they are wrong. This goes not just for the Iraq War but for most other issues as well. Indeed, book deals often result (for Iraq alone: Kenneth Pollack, Peter Beinart, Thomas Friedman, Max Boot, Jeffrey Goldberg, Judith Miller, Ralph Peters, and I'm sure many others).

Pundits should have batting averages for when they're flatly right or wrong on their various predictions posted next to their bylines. It'd help to know if you're dealing with Tony Gwynn or Mario Mendoza when you're reading their latest argument.

[Rex Brynen]

Pundit immunity.

For some reason, our professional class of media loudmouths is never held accountable for when they are wrong. This goes not just for the Iraq War but for most other issues as well. Indeed, book deals often result (for Iraq alone: Kenneth Pollack, Peter Beinart, Thomas Friedman, Max Boot, Jeffrey Goldberg, Judith Miller, Ralph Peters, and I'm sure many others).

Pundits should have batting averages for when they're flatly right or wrong on their various predictions posted next to their bylines. It'd help to know if you're dealing with Tony Gwynn or Mario Mendoza when you're reading their latest argument.

Bill Maher made a similar point about think tanks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcrtjkb5Jf4) :D

[SteveMetz]

Pundit immunity.

For some reason, our professional class of media loudmouths is never held accountable for when they are wrong. This goes not just for the Iraq War but for most other issues as well. Indeed, book deals often result (for Iraq alone: Kenneth Pollack, Peter Beinart, Thomas Friedman, Max Boot, Jeffrey Goldberg, Judith Miller, Ralph Peters, and I'm sure many others).

Pundits should have batting averages for when they're flatly right or wrong on their various predictions posted next to their bylines. It'd help to know if you're dealing with Tony Gwynn or Mario Mendoza when you're reading their latest argument.

At least Ken Pollack did some introspection to try and figure out where he went wrong ("Spies, Lies, and Weapons: What Went Wrong," Atlantic Monthly, Jan/Feb 2004)

Kind of reminds me of one of the very cool moments in my life. When I was on the faculty of the Air War College in the early 90s, we were holding a Vietnam Retrospective. I agreed to escort Westmoreland. So I sat in the O Club having breakfast with three people at the table: Westie, me and Walt Rostow. I just soaked in the amazing conversation between those two. But, I was struck that Westmoreland's position had not moved one millimeter since 1968, while Rostow was in the midst of serious introspection to try and figure out where he went wrong.

Which leads me back to my point. I suspect that Kristol, Perle, Feith, Rumsfeld, etc. will concoct (or have concocted) a "stab in the back" explanation for Iraq rather than simply admitting that they knew nothing about that country and thus read it wrong.

I did like your analogy though. In my own predictions, I try to stay above the "Mendoza Line."

[Stu-6]

I think if you seriously looked you can find accomplishments and failures in any generation. Kristol is selling magazines and little else with this article; his generation is quite good at that, debate whether or not that is an accomplishment.

Bottom line the greatest generation probably wasn’t much greater than any other they just had more obvious accomplishments.

Stu-6 “Gen-X”

[Mark O'Neill]

Steve,

I have to challenge you about the Disco call, what can one fault about that great Aussie Disco export, the Bee Gees??


MTO

[SteveMetz]

Steve,

I have to challenge you about the Disco call, what can one fault about that great Aussie Disco export, the Bee Gees??


MTO

Gag! I think they were actually mentioned in the Book of Revelation.

I would like to suggest that the slate of answers in the poll that started this thread is incomplete. I myself am "strongly uncertain."

[goesh]

I retract everything I said about my generation having forgotten about Disco - blame it on senility I guess and polyester, plaid polyester - many of us should be put against the wall for that:eek:

[Mark O'Neill]

Gag! I think they were actually mentioned in the Book of Revelation.



If they weren't they certainly deserved to be...

Will send you an email in the next day or two about deployment and related issues,

Best,

Mark

[Tom Odom]

Victory in the Cold War and the service of Vietnam veterans make an abundant lie of Kristol's generalization.

Perhaps Kristol's account properly reflects the estimation of those Boomers like himself, who had the opportunity to serve but ultimately had other priorities, compared to those today who volunteer --- but I for one would not want to be compared next to any of the men who held Khe Sanh or cleared Hue City (had the pleasure of meeting some of those gentlemen this past 10 Nov).

Give the man all the cupie dolls because he just smashed the target!

Sometimes people write tripe because at heart they are just pigs...

Tom

[carl]

The young complaining about the old, the old complaining about the young and the middle-aged complaining about both. And Mr. Kristol standing above it all by complaining about his contemporaries. He should know better, or have an editor to tell him to knock it off.

[SteveMetz]

The young complaining about the old, the old complaining about the young and the middle-aged complaining about both. And Mr. Kristol standing above it all by complaining about his contemporaries. He should know better, or have an editor to tell him to knock it off.

He IS the editor. And the publisher.

[walrus]

Kristol is simply grinding his axe on behalf of his employers, encouraging the "9/11 generation" to think of war as the natural state of man and something they should aspire to, and glorifying it as something to be enjoyed, which is a truly wicked suggestion.

And as a qualified, card carrying baby boomer, I am entitled to a right of reply.

I grew up in a military family and my first memories are of Mom and Dad listening to the news every night on the radio about a place called "Korea". On weekends in the 50's we would go on long picnics to places deep in the country, Mom and Dad pouring over military maps and teaching me how to use a compass and navigate. I later discovered that these "picnics" were actually Dad reconnoitering the ground for Army exercises for his reserve division.

By the time I was twelve, I was enrolled in my schools cadet corps and wore a uniform and learned to march and handle a rifle and machine gun. By thirteen I would take the train Saturday mornings to the rifle range for practice, with my military rifle over my shoulder, to the approving smiles of other train travellers ( I wonder what would happen today if a kid did this???)

We all had Family, relatives or friends who had fought in the First and Second World Wars who told us to be thankful we were not fighting and talked about the huge waste and destruction caused by both wars.

By eighteen I was enrolled as an Officer Cadet in my University's regiment - no "swinging 70's" for me and most other kids.

Then of course there was the cold war, and Cuba, and the invasion of Czechoslovakia, "Prague Spring" and mutually assured destruction, and civil defence, let alone Vietnam. We lived and had to learn to cope with the constant and potential fear that the Russians would start a nuclear war that would destroy civilization.

So no Mr. Kristol. It wasn't all sweetness and light and flower power.

But then again, Mr. Kristol doesn't know much about history either, or if he did, he conveniently forgets it. Our Parents, Grand Parents and Great Grand Parents had their fun too. Look no further than the Bloomsbury group and the roaring twenties.

As Professor Michael Howard put it, peace is an invention of man, that is preferable to alternatives, made possible by the rise of the nation/state. It is difficult to construct in the first place and requires constant physical, emotional and intellectual effort to maintain it intact.

Given this knowledge, it is extremely unedifying to anyone who has seen the consequences of war to watch someone like Kristol shake the foundations of peace, suggesting that war is a better alternative.

[selil]

The problem is that for every one of the baby boomers who sacrificed and served their country during Vietnam you have thousands that were busy hiding from their draft boards. Y'all are the choir and the exception. When the broad story of your generation is illuminated the character and honor of a few will be the brilliant light showing the inadequacies of the boomers in general.

[carl]

"He IS the editor. And the publisher."

That is the trouble with being the exalted boss, there is nobody around to tell you when you are being dopey. Bobby Knight and Woody Hayes suffered from the same condition.

"Y'all are the choir and the exception."

Selil: Saying, in effect, "all you guys are jerks, except you couple sitting over there." isn't very persuasive.

[MaxL]

In the Weekly Standard William Kristol describes the Baby Boomers (generally accepted in the U.S. as those born between 1946 and 1964) (snip).

I'm not sure how you can speak meaningfully about such a vast and divergent bunch of people. What does a man who was 18 in '64 have in common with a man who was born that year? When the latter was 18, the former was 36.

It seems to me that arbitrarily dividing people into groups (let's call them generations) on the basis of age, and then trying to analyze what those groups have accomplished is not going to be a productive exercise.

[120mm]

Sweet! I'm a Baby Boomer by 6 days!!!

Hey, get off your butts and start working, GenX and GenYers!!!! D'you think my Social Security is going to pay for itself???

How about those of us raised in "backwards" conditions in rural America?

I've read more than one critical essay about the "Greatest Generation", and how real and actual sacrifice was also borne by a shocking minority, while the majority saw it as a "great adventure" and were relatively untouched by the negative aspects of WWII.

Like the Army recruiting slogan used to say, "Every Generation Has Its Heroes."

[goesh]

120mm, what happened to the "an army of one" slogan? Maybe too many boomers started laughing too much and it trickled upward fast - who knows - the "army strong" slogan is a true reflection of the boomer ethos - this thread may deteriorate into the geezer hour of power, reflection and reminiscence and get out of hand;)

[Rank amateur]

Personally, I think a generation that grows up watching this (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=LWSjUe0FyxQ)will put a stake through the heart of most of the social conservative values Kristol holds dear.

[MattC86]

Speaking as a member of the "9/11 generation," I'd like to say the following:

1. Thanks, Bill, for raising me up to the level of World War II veterans - ego boosts are always welcome.

2. In all seriousness, this is a remarkably shallow generalization. The boomer generation was not solely a drug-hazed bunch of disco lovers, nor (and even more so) is my generation so selfless, courageous, and committed to service as Kristol seems to think.

As I've said before, I don't know what college campuses he's been on recently, but actions to back up noble-sounding calls of service and sacrifice are few and far between. And I doubt it's just my college.

Another example of why punditry really is just about getting attention.

Matt

[RTK]

http://weblogs.newsday.com/news/opinion/walthandelsman/blog/2007/11/animation_baby_boomers.html

[120mm]

You know, for those of us who try not to default to the crotchety old man "the kids these days..." mode, it is difficult not to when you realize that the current generation is fatter than any generation in history. I mean, I remember the 2 fat kids in my class of 31.

In my kids school, there are just a few kids per class that AREN'T pudgy, if not downright obese....

"And the whitefish was better in the old country, too...."

[marct]

You know, for those of us who try not to default to the crotchety old man "the kids these days..." mode, it is difficult not to when you realize that the current generation is fatter than any generation in history. I mean, I remember the 2 fat kids in my class of 31.

In my kids school, there are just a few kids per class that AREN'T pudgy, if not downright obese....

"And the whitefish was better in the old country, too...."

We used to walk through 6' foot drifts of snow just to get to school (actually, that was true, at least for a couple of days in 1972). When I told my Grandfather hat, he say "Yeah? Well, were you carrying 100 lbs of grain in a bag on your back? Thought not -[wuss...]".

[selil]

You know, for those of us who try not to default to the crotchety old man "the kids these days..." mode, it is difficult not to when you realize that the current generation is fatter than any generation in history. I mean, I remember the 2 fat kids in my class of 31.

In my kids school, there are just a few kids per class that AREN'T pudgy, if not downright obese....

"And the whitefish was better in the old country, too...."

All four of my kids are rail thin. My two 8 year olds are almost 35 lbs each and over 45 inches tall. They are in second grade and do 3rd and 4th grade math. The female PE teacher (at least 230 pounds and maybe 5' 8") says the boys aren't strong enough because they don't do push ups and they won't do well academically. Oh,,,, she's a boomer too.

[Penta]

Hey, be fair. When you were kids, it was actually safe to play outside. You had sidewalks.

These days, sidewalks are rarer, and it's not quite so safe to play outside. Let's see you try to stay fit under those conditions.

[slapout9]

Alabama baby boomers:)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YHoeSVLWdM

[JeffC]

Pundit immunity.

For some reason, our professional class of media loudmouths is never held accountable for when they are wrong. This goes not just for the Iraq War but for most other issues as well. Indeed, book deals often result (for Iraq alone: Kenneth Pollack, Peter Beinart, Thomas Friedman, Max Boot, Jeffrey Goldberg, Judith Miller, Ralph Peters, and I'm sure many others).

Pundits should have batting averages for when they're flatly right or wrong on their various predictions posted next to their bylines. It'd help to know if you're dealing with Tony Gwynn or Mario Mendoza when you're reading their latest argument.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've suggested that very thing! :D

[tequila]

Pundit immunity in full effect.

The author of the piece in question gets a NYTIMES opinion column (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/business/30kristol.html?ei=5090&en=acecd3cfaeb0f01a&ex=1356670800&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print). I cannot think of anyone better qualified for certain tasks at the NYTIMES than Bill Kristol.