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Ratzel
12-31-2007, 06:37 PM
The leftest organization "MoveOn.org" raised 300,000 for phone cards for troops in Iraq. I'm sure most of you are familiar with this organization but if you're not, here's a link.
http://www.moveon.org/

Like most leftest organizations, MoveOn generally supports the leftest policies we're all familiar with. They're generally in favor of Socialist economic policies, open borders, anti-war rhetoric, extremist environmentalist, egalitarism and other policies that would drastically change the U.S. Therefore, we could say, that they want to do away with the US as we know it. So by sending phone cards to US soldiers, they may wish to gain favor with disgruntled soldiers. Disgruntled soldiers are very valuable to the anti-war effort.

So my question is: Is MoveOn[dot]org conducting 5GW in order to bring down the US government, and radically change American life? Or, do I not understand Fifth Generation Warfare?

Here's a link to the story:
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2007/12/moveonorg_raises_300000_for_th.html

Uboat509
12-31-2007, 07:06 PM
MoveOn.org represents the worst of the far left. Unfortunately, our soldiers have become a political pawns in that both sides are trying to say that they support the troops more than the other side. In the left it has become very fashionable to say that you support the troops but not the war, whether or not it's actually true. The phone card thing is little more than a public relations stunt to that end.

SFC W

SteveMetz
12-31-2007, 07:15 PM
I find the idea that soldiers are going to decide whether or not they favor continued US engagement in Iraq based on whether they were given a phone card pretty silly. To be frank, I also find the assertion that Moveon wants to "bring down the American government" pretty silly. They are free to promote their extremists agenda just as those from the other end of the political spectrum are.

bourbon
12-31-2007, 07:47 PM
Maybe, but I doubt it. They are sending the phone cards through the USO, so I doubt they will be able to pass along any agitprop. I wouldn't be quick view this as a nefarious plot, knowing some members of MoveOn and other antiwar groups I will say they are not all bad people - if not misguided. For a well funded, networked, large public policy advocacy group, I think they do not pull their own weight and underperform.

I have got to laugh at the notion that there currently is a sociopolitical antiwar-movement in this country of any substance beyond collective self-gratification. Scott Ritter is a guy who I respect, he's a former Marine Corps intelligence officer, weapons inspector, and a conservative. But at the same time he is 'antiwar', he has written a book called Waging Peace: The Art of War for the Antiwar Movement that outlines why the antiwar movement has repeatedly failed and offers strategy to improve it. If the antiwar movement followed this book their effectiveness would increase by several orders of magnitude imho. But from what I can see it has largely fallen on deaf ears, the antiwar movement remains flacid and inept.

This is video of a speech Scott Ritter has given on the matter: Waging Peace: The Art of War for the Antiwar Movement (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7167733082609114831&q=scott+ritter&total=190&start=0&num=10&so=1&type=search&plindex=3)

Ratzel
12-31-2007, 08:51 PM
I find the idea that soldiers are going to decide whether or not they favor continued US engagement in Iraq based on whether they were given a phone card pretty silly. To be frank, I also find the assertion that Moveon wants to "bring down the American government" pretty silly. They are free to promote their extremists agenda just as those from the other end of the political spectrum are.

Yes, they are free to promote their extremist agenda, and I would never suggest that they don't have that right. But I do see MoveOn as an organ for international leftism. This force didn't just go away after the Soviet Union Collapsed, they started other ventures. The rank and file members are mostly made up of college "revolutionaries," but they do have some pretty heavy hitting financiers.

I also find the idea "that soldiers are going to decide whether or not they favor continued US engagement in Iraq based on whether they were given a phonecard" to be pretty silly. But I have seen these groups attempt to recruit disgruntled soldiers as well as literally throwing things at recruiters. During the Vietnam war, the left attempted to subvert the US Army and to some degree, did a good job. Of course we don't have a draft Army, but the potential still exists. Just not at the same scale.

I would not claim to be an expert at anything, but I have spent time studying radical political movements. And while it may not be MoveOn's main objective to bring down the US Government, it is certainly the goal of the International leftist Movement. MoveOn has a role to play in it just as the radical environmentalist groups, "anti-racist" groups, and open borders groups. Taking out an ad mocking the highest ranking military commander in the country during wartime is quite subversive.

As this country continues to change demographically, these type of groups are going to become more powerful. They will continue to agitate the new hispanic immigrants entering this country along with other people feeling disenfranchised and will take advantage of the ever increasing income gap. Leftism is growing very fast in South America and places like Columbia or Venezuela could easily become the base of support for arms and money to guerrillas in North America.

This may sound outlandish or "pretty silly" at the present time, but I see a lot of change coming to the world in the next 30-50 years and I don't take anything for granite.

Ratzel
12-31-2007, 08:59 PM
Maybe, but I doubt it. They are sending the phone cards through the USO, so I doubt they will be able to pass along any agitprop. I wouldn't be quick view this as a nefarious plot, knowing some members of MoveOn and other antiwar groups I will say they are not all bad people - if not misguided. For a well funded, networked, large public policy advocacy group, I think they do not pull their own weight and underperform.

I have got to laugh at the notion that there currently is a sociopolitical antiwar-movement in this country of any substance beyond collective self-gratification. Scott Ritter is a guy who I respect, he's a former Marine Corps intelligence officer, weapons inspector, and a conservative. But at the same time he is 'antiwar', he has written a book called Waging Peace: The Art of War for the Antiwar Movement that outlines why the antiwar movement has repeatedly failed and offers strategy to improve it. If the antiwar movement followed this book their effectiveness would increase by several orders of magnitude imho. But from what I can see it has largely fallen on deaf ears, the antiwar movement remains flacid and inept.

This is video of a speech Scott Ritter has given on the matter: Waging Peace: The Art of War for the Antiwar Movement (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7167733082609114831&q=scott+ritter&total=190&start=0&num=10&so=1&type=search&plindex=3)


Yes, I think Ritter is a stand up guy too. Before the Iraq war, I was in a trailer PX in Kuwait and seen a little book for sale. It was a warning to the country that the Bush Administration was bringing us to war based on faulty evidence. It also said that there are no WMD's in Iraq. I purchased it and read it and remember thinking "who the hell is this liberal?" That "Liberal" ended up being Scott Ritter.

SteveMetz
12-31-2007, 09:34 PM
Yes, they are free to promote their extremist agenda, and I would never suggest that they don't have that right. But I do see MoveOn as an organ for international leftism. This force didn't just go away after the Soviet Union Collapsed, they started other ventures. The rank and file members are mostly made up of college "revolutionaries," but they do have some pretty heavy hitting financiers.

I also find the idea "that soldiers are going to decide whether or not they favor continued US engagement in Iraq based on whether they were given a phonecard" to be pretty silly. But I have seen these groups attempt to recruit disgruntled soldiers as well as literally throwing things at recruiters. During the Vietnam war, the left attempted to subvert the US Army and to some degree, did a good job. Of course we don't have a draft Army, but the potential still exists. Just not at the same scale.

I would not claim to be an expert at anything, but I have spent time studying radical political movements. And while it may not be MoveOn's main objective to bring down the US Government, it is certainly the goal of the International leftist Movement. MoveOn has a role to play in it just as the radical environmentalist groups, "anti-racist" groups, and open borders groups. Taking out an ad mocking the highest ranking military commander in the country during wartime is quite subversive.

As this country continues to change demographically, these type of groups are going to become more powerful. They will continue to agitate the new hispanic immigrants entering this country along with other people feeling disenfranchised and will take advantage of the ever increasing income gap. Leftism is growing very fast in South America and places like Columbia or Venezuela could easily become the base of support for arms and money to guerrillas in North America.

This may sound outlandish or "pretty silly" at the present time, but I see a lot of change coming to the world in the next 30-50 years and I don't take anything for granite.

Well, we'll agree to disagree. I don't consider Moveon any more of a radical leftist group than the 700 Club is part of a transnational fascist movement. I'm not what you refer to "an ad mocking the highest ranking military commander in the country" and I personally don't consider this "wartime."

Leftism is not "growing very fast in South America." It's existed there for 100 years and is not growing any more now than it ever did. And I find the idea of "places like Columbia [sic] or Venezuela" becoming "the base of support for arms and money to guerrillas in North America" pretty looney.

JeffC
12-31-2007, 09:42 PM
This may sound outlandish or "pretty silly" at the present time, but I see a lot of change coming to the world in the next 30-50 years and I don't take anything for granite.

I could be mistaken but it seems like you're skating on the very thin ice of "conspiracy theories" (i.e., the "International Leftist Movement"), which isn't a productive topic here. As Ken White has frequently said, there are lots of other forums on the Web where such theories are not only tolerated but welcomed.

I do want to congratulate you on your closing sentence "I don't take anything for granite". I don't think I've ever heard that bit of advice "Don't take anything for granted" re-phrased in quite that way before. It's funny and it kind of makes sense.

Ratzel
12-31-2007, 10:03 PM
Well, we'll agree to disagree. .
I agree.

I probably should have started this thread asking a different question. I've been thinking about 5GW and how the International Communist Movement operated tactically and strategically. The left realized after WWI that the workers of the West wouldn't rise up against the capitalist class. They noticed that the Western people believed in God, nation, ethnicity, and family before the writings of some academics they never heard of. The left realized it needed to destroy and discredit these institutions and concepts.

Their first mission was to control the education system. This has resulted in Western Children hating their own history and assuming a nihilistic attitude about their own identities. An American child today sees the founding fathers of this country as being Indian killers and rapists who oppressed all people who weren't white, Christian, and men.

So my new and improved question is: Is the left engaging in 5GW by attacking, distorting, and perverting the traditional institutions and systems(family, culture, God, patriotism) of the West.

Ratzel
12-31-2007, 10:08 PM
I could be mistaken but it seems like you're skating on the very thin ice of "conspiracy theories" (i.e., the "International Leftist Movement"), which isn't a productive topic here. As Ken White has frequently said, there are lots of other forums on the Web where such theories are not only tolerated but welcomed.

I do want to congratulate you on your closing sentence "I don't take anything for granite". I don't think I've ever heard that bit of advice "Don't take anything for granted" re-phrased in quite that way before. It's funny and it kind of makes sense.

Yes, I need to be more careful when using the spell check. Thank you for pointing that out. I did rephrase the post but if you think its not appropriate for this forum then please do erase it. I'll refrain from posting on this thread until I get the authorization.

Uboat509
12-31-2007, 10:08 PM
I could be mistaken but it seems like you're skating on the very thin ice of "conspiracy theories" (i.e., the "International Leftist Movement"), which isn't a productive topic here. As Ken White has frequently said, there are lots of other forums on the Web where such theories are not only tolerated but welcomed.

I am not sure that I agree. After all, we are apparently neocon-Zionists here, and possibly Illuminati as well. I was unaware of this but I am trying to learn. Should I be attending some sort of meetings? My father will not be amused.

SFC W

JeffC
12-31-2007, 10:20 PM
Yes, I need to be more careful when using the spell check. Thank you for pointing that out. I did rephrase the post but if you think its not appropriate for this forum then please do erase it. I'll refrain from posting on this thread until I get the authorization.

Well, the spell check would have recognized "granite" as a word so no joy there. I actually thought that you used it on purpose, rather than it being a typo. I'm definitely going to use "don't take anything for granite" in future online exchanges!

Regarding your re-phrase, I'm not a moderator, I'm just another forum member, like yourself, and making a friendly suggestion. Topics that are polarizing, particularly in terms of politics and religion, or that attempt to lump people in rigidly defined groups, generally don't do well here. I have a feeling that your new and improved topic will not be well-received for those reasons.

SteveMetz
12-31-2007, 10:24 PM
I agree.

I probably should have started this thread asking a different question. I've been thinking about 5GW and how the International Communist Movement operated tactically and strategically. The left realized after WWI that the workers of the West wouldn't rise up against the capitalist class. They noticed that the Western people believed in God, nation, ethnicity, and family before the writings of some academics they never heard of. The left realized it needed to destroy and discredit these institutions and concepts.

Their first mission was to control the education system. This has resulted in Western Children hating their own history and assuming a nihilistic attitude about their own identities. An American child today sees the founding fathers of this country as being Indian killers and rapists who oppressed all people who weren't white, Christian, and men.

So my new and improved question is: Is the left engaging in 5GW by attacking, distorting, and perverting the traditional institutions and systems(family, culture, God, patriotism) of the West.

My children don't "hate their own history" or have a nihilistic identity. They don't see the "he founding fathers of this country as being Indian killers and rapists who oppressed all people who weren't white, Christian, and men.

I don't think there is A "left" as per your caricature.

Ratzel
12-31-2007, 10:43 PM
My children don't "hate their own history" or have a nihilistic identity. They don't see the "he founding fathers of this country as being Indian killers and rapists who oppressed all people who weren't white, Christian, and men.


I don't know how old you are but this is a common theme on college campuses today. Anyway, this thread may have been a mistake? I just learned of this 5GW concept and am trying to conceptualize it. If all possible, maybe we can erase this thread from existence and pretend it never happened? A sort of, what happens at this thread stays at this thread type of a thing? Can someone arrange this?

SteveMetz
12-31-2007, 10:56 PM
I don't know how old you are but this is a common theme on college campuses today. Anyway, this thread may have been a mistake? I just learned of this 5GW concept and am trying to conceptualize it. If all possible, maybe we can erase this thread from existence and pretend it never happened? A sort of, what happens at this thread stays at this thread type of a thing? Can someone arrange this?

I'm a former college professor and have two kids in college now. There are academics who spout the line you indicate. But I think you are grossly overstating the extent to which they have created a nihilistic generation that hates its heritage. In fact, I think ideologues on the left have a more limited and less corrosive influence on the American polity than ideologues of the right like Rush Limbaugh. To say "the left" is undertaking 5GW is, in my opinion, simply caricature.

selil
12-31-2007, 11:53 PM
I think since people think that fourth generation warfare is a decided (no it isn't) affair, then we've got to go out and discover the fifth generation. If I was going to place fifth generation warfare it would be firmly in the land of computer mediated warfare. At no other time in history have we had the capability of command, control, communication, and coordination. We often try and define cyber warfare as a limited engagement involving computers and the efficacious hooliganism of attacks within one of the three confidentiality, integrity, availability (CIA) triad.

I think if you look deeper the topic is much bigger and references a ground swell in adoption and adaption to strategies and abilities. Computers running UAV's, computers running Phalanx and other battle systems, IED sweeping robots (Roomba of the battle field), and so much more that didn't exist 25 years ago. Fifth generation warfare is not a simple information operation (IO) that might involve a political process. It is a ground swell and change in the active pursuit of kinetic and non-kinetic means of battle.

Ken White
01-01-2008, 12:03 AM
I am not sure that I agree. After all, we are apparently neocon-Zionists here, and possibly Illuminati as well. I was unaware of this but I am trying to learn. Should I be attending some sort of meetings? My father will not be amused.

SFC W

I thought I was a liberal twinkie and I know I'm probably unilluminated. I HATE meetings. My Father was rarely amused at my humor. Come to think of it, my wife and kids aren't either. Neither are the neighbors -- and they think I'm a neanderthal...

Sigh. This is so confusing. What's bringing all this jazz outa the wood work? Christmas? Over bourboned Egg Nog?

I have trouble coping with complex theories, therefor I've decided to label myself as a neo-Zionistic proto diluvian and I'm sticking with that no matter what either side's fringe wants to call me. NZPD for short, not to be confused with the far better known (and probably more efficient) Slapout PD. :D

Fortunately, i'm old and therefor will not remember any of this tomorrow... ;)

Gian P Gentile
01-01-2008, 12:07 AM
I went to UC Berkeley and for a while even subscribed to the "Nation." Am I in trouble? I like Al Franken and do believe that Rush Limbaugh is a "big fat idiot." Am I to be investigated for subversion?

gian

selil
01-01-2008, 12:12 AM
I went to UC Berkeley and for a while even subscribed to the "Nation." Am I in trouble? I like Al Franken and do believe that Rush Limbaugh is a "big fat idiot." Am I to be investigated for subversion?

gian

Uncle Joe McCarthy always said subversion would come through the Army... Do you own anything...... RED!!!!.......



ROTFLMAO...... <- Slangism not crypto islamofacism or judeo-christian zionism..... but totally a geekgasm.

Ken White
01-01-2008, 12:14 AM
The mind boggles...:D

Gian P Gentile
01-01-2008, 12:17 AM
Uncle Joe McCarthy always said subversion would come through the Army... Do you own anything...... RED!!!!........

Yeah, we bought our daughter a few years ago a cute little bright red VW beetle; you know, the kind that his the little flower vase next to the steering wheel for a flower. I like driving it; I especially liked driving it last year after getting back from Baghdad. I always made sure the flower was in the vase.

gian

SteveMetz
01-01-2008, 12:17 AM
I went to UC Berkeley and for a while even subscribed to the "Nation." Am I in trouble? I like Al Franken and do believe that Rush Limbaugh is a "big fat idiot." Am I to be investigated for subversion?

gian

My understanding was that you were already on the purge list. It was discussed at the last Neocon-Zionist meeting.

Gian P Gentile
01-01-2008, 12:29 AM
My understanding was that you were already on the purge list. It was discussed at the last Neocon-Zionist meeting.

Right, Right; that is the thing that Ken White runs.

Ron Humphrey
01-01-2008, 01:19 AM
Right, Right; that is the thing that Ken White runs.

Didn't you see the memo
He broke off and created the proto-diluvian subset.
Probably too many disagreements with the more purist interpretations.




I have trouble coping with complex theories, therefor I've decided to label myself as a neo-Zionistic proto diluvian and I'm sticking with that no matter what either side's fringe wants to call me. NZPD for short, not to be confused with the far better known (and probably more efficient) Slapout PD. :D



I myself have chose a more definative path of NZOOSRP
( Neocon-Zionist-Over-Optimistic-Somewhat-Realistically-Pragmatist)

Ken White
01-01-2008, 01:45 AM
Right, Right; that is the thing that Ken White runs.

Colonels outa trouble is So-o-o repetitive a thing as jobs go.

No, sir, you always start off on your LEFT foot. So it's left, right... ;)

(Unless you're in the Old Guard, they walk funny. Not to mention at my age and on a pack of Pall Malls a day, I don't run anything or anywhere if it can be avoided... :D )

(Ron is correct, on reflection,us dinosaurs cannot be associated with any of this neo-stuff; we do Paleo and the paleo-er the better. Ergo, I have to be a PZPD -- which sounds like an old Soviet AP Mine??? ... :) )

selil
01-01-2008, 03:44 AM
Yeah, we bought our daughter a few years ago a cute little bright red VW beetle; you know, the kind that his the little flower vase next to the steering wheel for a flower. I like driving it; I especially liked driving it last year after getting back from Baghdad. I always made sure the flower was in the vase.

gian


Oooh my daughter wants one of those. Did you get her the uber environmental friendly (high mpg) diesel or the uber sun friendly convertible?

Urp... I mean aren't they made by former fascists and horrible on American trade!!!!????

Anarchist political correctness is so dang tiring.

Ratzel
01-01-2008, 03:56 AM
I think since people think that fourth generation warfare is a decided (no it isn't) affair, then we've got to go out and discover the fifth generation. If I was going to place fifth generation warfare it would be firmly in the land of computer mediated warfare. At no other time in history have we had the capability of command, control, communication, and coordination. We often try and define cyber warfare as a limited engagement involving computers and the efficacious hooliganism of attacks within one of the three confidentiality, integrity, availability (CIA) triad.

I think if you look deeper the topic is much bigger and references a ground swell in adoption and adaption to strategies and abilities. Computers running UAV's, computers running Phalanx and other battle systems, IED sweeping robots (Roomba of the battle field), and so much more that didn't exist 25 years ago. Fifth generation warfare is not a simple information operation (IO) that might involve a political process. It is a ground swell and change in the active pursuit of kinetic and non-kinetic means of battle.

I guess I should have just asked this in the first place. I first came across the concept of 5GW here:
http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2005/07/20/dreaming-5th-generation-war.html

Also here:http://www.dreaming5gw.com/2007/11/the_conspiratorial_strategy.php#more

The authors' seemed to indicate that 5GW begins with some sort of conspiracy. The second article deals exclusively with left-wing 5GW strategy.

JeffC
01-01-2008, 05:14 AM
I guess I should have just asked this in the first place. I first came across the concept of 5GW here:
http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2005/07/20/dreaming-5th-generation-war.html

Also here:http://www.dreaming5gw.com/2007/11/the_conspiratorial_strategy.php#more

The authors' seemed to indicate that 5GW begins with some sort of conspiracy. The second article deals exclusively with left-wing 5GW strategy.

Did you check into who the authors are? I find that's usually a good starting point. Personally, I find Dan tdaxp a little creepy to read. And there's no profile that I can find at his blog, which is never a good sign.

selil
01-01-2008, 05:55 AM
here (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=4362225)is one discussion on the topic

zenpundit
01-02-2008, 07:02 PM
JeffC wrote:


"Did you check into who the authors are? I find that's usually a good starting point. Personally, I find Dan tdaxp a little creepy to read. And there's no profile that I can find at his blog, which is never a good sign. "

Jeff,

There's nothing creepy about Dan, he's a good guy - and I know him personally. He's bright with multiple advanced degrees in different fields. Dan has/had a need for a time before he was accepted into a doctoral program to be a little obscure about who he was online. Not an uncommon practice for academics or aspiring academics given that we live in the age of Google and that hiring and departmental committees usually include a couple of vindictive wack jobs. He's not alone in that; presumably "JeffC" is neither your full Christian name nor your c.v.:)

About the worst that can be said of Dan is that, at times, he posts things simply to get a rise out of ppl and keeps yanking their chain past the point where he should fess up that he wasn't being entirely serious.

selil
01-02-2008, 07:45 PM
About the worst that can be said of Dan is that, at times, he posts things simply to get a rise out of ppl and keeps yanking their chain past the point where he should fess up that he wasn't being entirely serious.

Who would do something like that? And, don't forget I owe you that cup of coffee.

diablocz
01-02-2008, 09:32 PM
I had to add...

Years ago, at 17, I believed the expression to be, "It's a doggy dog world"...my girlfriend at the time had to correct me...

The "take it for granite" comment had me howling with laughter if only because my kids have proved to me that how you hear/understand it is how you spout it.... :wry:

Cheers -
D

JeffC
01-02-2008, 11:33 PM
JeffC wrote:



Jeff,

[QUOTE]There's nothing creepy about Dan, he's a good guy - and I know him personally. He's bright with multiple advanced degrees in different fields. Dan has/had a need for a time before he was accepted into a doctoral program to be a little obscure about who he was online. Not an uncommon practice for academics or aspiring academics given that we live in the age of Google and that hiring and departmental committees usually include a couple of vindictive wack jobs. He's not alone in that; presumably "JeffC" is neither your full Christian name nor your c.v.:)


I didn't call Dan creepy. I don't know him well enough to say. What I said was that his writing has a creepy feel to it. Clearly, YMMV. Regarding JeffC, that's just a shorthand version of my name, Jeff Carr, which is easily discovered at my blog, the link to which is in my profile.

SteveMetz
01-02-2008, 11:45 PM
[QUOTE=zenpundit;36759]JeffC wrote:



Jeff,




I didn't call Dan creepy. I don't know him well enough to say. What I said was that his writing has a creepy feel to it. Clearly, YMMV. Regarding JeffC, that's just a shorthand version of my name, Jeff Carr, which is easily discovered at my blog, the link to which is in my profile.

YMMV?? This is like trying to watch my teenage daughters text message.

JeffC
01-03-2008, 12:22 AM
[QUOTE=JeffC;36793]

YMMV?? This is like trying to watch my teenage daughters text message.

:D YMMV = "Your Milleage May Vary"

zenpundit
01-03-2008, 03:20 AM
Hi Jeff

Well-focused blog on your part. Nice.

Aesthetic opinions are usually a matter of taste and I'll leave it to that.

zenpundit
01-03-2008, 03:21 AM
Coffee would be good; You mentioned that you were north of me - near or far ?

selil
01-03-2008, 04:10 AM
Coffee would be good; You mentioned that you were north of me - near or far ?

I'm at Purdue Calumet in Hammond, Live about 20 miles east.

MattC86
01-03-2008, 04:54 AM
Hammond? I drive past that dump - er, town - every year on my way between Ithaca and Chicago. My profound sympathies.

As far as this post, I'll tread as lightly as I can because I know I'm a pretty liberal guy wandering through a forest of traditional conservatives/Republicans - and if you can't stand bad metaphors and rhetoric, you should probably stop reading now - but I just want to say this idea of MoveOn somehow trying to overthrow traditional values or practicing subversion of any kind is really kind of painful to read.

MoveOn may be extreme in their techniques (the Petraeus ad obviously was a pretty low point) but agenda-wise, it's difficult to consider them radical when they were clamoring for the end of a war that, just a few short months ago, was strongly opposed by 50% or more of the country. Their social and economic agenda, while liberal, is hardly "socialist" and anything smacking of a "leftist" conspiracy is so unbelievably outrageous that I have a hard time believing you're serious. Especially considering that liberals in the US are not nearly as liberal as left parties in European states and Canada, let alone anything approaching "Stalinism."

And yes, there are plenty of far-left campus radicals. But the people I interact with more on my campus - I know, poor choice of friends - are more likely to be near-racist anti-Muslims who support this war and any war, while being conspicuously unwilling to fight in it (or even pay higher taxes for it.)

Extremism is in the eye of the beholder, and it definitely goes both ways.

I am sorry if that seems to be personal in any way, I'm done with this whole thing - no arguments from me. I just felt something was missing here that needed to be said.

Thanks,

Matt

Chris Albon
01-03-2008, 05:21 AM
To everyone:

As I bleeding-heart, San Francisco mega-lefty, let me officially deny that we have a vast international conspiracy.

To other lefties on the forum:

Ethay ickenchay owsknay aboutway ethay ovenway. Iway epeatray. Ethay ickenchay owsknay aboutway ethay ovenway. Informway Echay immediatelyway!

Ken White
01-03-2008, 05:49 AM
your input, seriously and sincerely.

Can we now go back to being apolitical? Both sides could try a little harder to avoid that, plenty of places on the net that cater to it, even thrive on it.

Thanks.

Watcher In The Middle
01-03-2008, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by MattC:

...but I just want to say this idea of MoveOn somehow trying to overthrow traditional values or practicing subversion of any kind is really kind of painful to read.

MoveOn may be extreme in their techniques (the Petraeus ad obviously was a pretty low point) but agenda-wise, it's difficult to consider them radical when they were clamoring for the end of a war that, just a few short months ago, was strongly opposed by 50% or more of the country. Their social and economic agenda, while liberal, is hardly "socialist" and anything smacking of a "leftist" conspiracy is so unbelievably outrageous that I have a hard time believing you're serious.

I pointed out the early posts on this topic to a Democratic activist friend of mine (opposite party from me), and after reading them, she eventually stopped laughing when she was gasping for air.....

Look, most of the Democratic party players out there aren't real impressed with moveon.org, and honestly more than a few of them have occasionally wondered if they aren't really a nefarious Republican plot to frustrate Democratic election objectives in 2008. Which methinks is pretty funny.

And btw, "overthrow traditional values" - whenever I hear that, it's just a typical political talking point.

It's stuff like this (from both sides) that drives the folks who are in the middle out of politics.

J Wolfsberger
01-03-2008, 02:05 PM
I went to UC Berkeley and for a while even subscribed to the "Nation." Am I in trouble? I like Al Franken and do believe that Rush Limbaugh is a "big fat idiot." Am I to be investigated for subversion?

gian

We'll discuss it at the next chapter meeting of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. ;)

Ratzel
01-03-2008, 05:43 PM
When I decided to use left-wing subversion as an example of 5GW, I made the assumption that most of the good folks who post here shared some common premises and historical understandings. I was wrong of course, and when I seen people talking of "McCarthyism" I had given up. I figured that there was no reason to go any further just as there would be no reason to teach calculus to those who hadn't learned the multiplication tables.

I then had a change of heart, as I could not accept the idea of otherwise well informed and objective thinkers being totally in the dark of this historical reality. It took me a while to decide how I would prepare for this lesson, but I decided on an interview with an ex-KGB officer. I think you'll find this interview to be informative and entertaining, which are two important aspects of learning new subjects.

I hope that by the end of the 3 part interview, you'll at least have some appreciation of what I'm talking about. I am familiar with the culture of this forum and will not be making a habit of discussing such things in the future.

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UKwcKhsuOo&feature=related

Particurally related to 5GW is in 2/3 when he speaks of the 4 steps of subverting the nation. If you can't bring yourself to watch it all, at least watch 2/3 and think of this in terms of 5GW.

MattC86
01-03-2008, 05:59 PM
I'm going to do as Ken asks and simply "Move On," horrific pun sadly intended. We don't agree on this, we're not going to agree on this, so probably best for all concerned to find greener pastures.

Matt

Ken White
01-03-2008, 06:35 PM
and I have no doubt there are a number of routine posters here who agree with you as well as a possibly similar number who do not. While your intentions were pure, the thread warped off, fairly predictably, into the political rather than on the 5GW effect.

There are other places on the internet for the firmly ideological or political discussion. Your decision to avoid such efforts in the future is wise and appreciated. It isn't possible to discuss warfare without some political elements intruding, no question -- but it is possible to do that without taking an overt political position and generating a lot of froth and little of practical substance pertinent to this Forum which concentrates on the practical aspects of warfighting.

Thanks to all -- and thanks, MattC.

Ratzel
01-03-2008, 08:21 PM
and I have no doubt there are a number of routine posters here who agree with you as well as a possibly similar number who do not. While your intentions were pure, the thread warped off, fairly predictably, into the political rather than on the 5GW effect.

There are other places on the internet for the firmly ideological or political discussion. Your decision to avoid such efforts in the future is wise and appreciated. It isn't possible to discuss warfare without some political elements intruding, no question -- but it is possible to do that without taking an overt political position and generating a lot of froth and little of practical substance pertinent to this Forum which concentrates on the practical aspects of warfighting.

Thanks to all -- and thanks, MattC.

You weren't telling anyone to "drop it" while they were having fun at my expense. Why the change? I even suggested that we erase the thread when it was 10 posts old. I was very willing to "drop it" but everyone was having too much fun. So all I did by posting this interview was attempt to show the gallery that left-wing subversion of the West was a very real thing. And by doing so, possibly even getting the folks at this thread to think about my original inference. So yes, I'll "drop it" and keep to apolitical subjects only.

Ken White
01-03-2008, 08:43 PM
If you noticed, I was among the number having fun at your expense and I think if you review the thread, you'll discover that the so called fun at your expense was a light hearted way to suggest you might want to back off. I only interfered and got direct when the thread chatter turned overtly political. Please note the timing of that post of mine and that it was not addressed at you.

You chose not to heed so you, specifically, got a second suggestion to chill. I won't repeat the apolitical tone desired here mantra, you can reread that.

As I said, this is three. Time to move on.

This thread is locked.