Turkey's Steps?

[Steve Blair]

Thought this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7264903.stm) might be interest here. It will be interesting to see how far it goes or how long the attempt lasts.

The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.

And just as interesting...

Significantly, the "Ankara School" of theologians working on the new Hadith have been using Western critical techniques and philosophy.

They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones.

"You have to see them as a whole," says Fadi Hakura.

"You can't say, for example, that the verses of violence override the verses of peace. This is used a lot in the Middle East, this kind of ideology.

"I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."

Quotes taken from the BBC story.

[Tom Odom]

This is very interesting and only the Turks have the intestinal fortitude to even consider doing this. Kemalism can be a wonderously liberating thing :wry:

Tom

[slapout9]

SWJED put this up on another thread yesterday or the day before. This came up at the SMART Wars workshop I went to a couple of months ago. I posted a radio interview of Warden himself discussing this idea of how to influence Islam in this way. we suggested this and some other forms of publications to be distibuted to the population. Not bad for an Air Force guy:) It's in the Rings man it's all in the rings. ( Bill Moore you feeling me man ;)). Incindetally they were following our plan pretty close until they invaded Iraq...bad move....should have stopped at the border.

[Steve Blair]

Actually it's been discussed well before that (I think Marc might have mentioned something similar, and it's also been kicked around in other areas). It's important enough I thought it should have its own space.

The catch with "influencing Islam" is that it has to come from within. WE can't really do anything other than sit back and (very) quietly cheer from the sidelines. Anything else is subject to spin and manipulation (and I'm sure somewhere there's a group claiming that this is a CIA plot).

[slapout9]

Agree 100% Steve it has to come from them and we can not be directly involved but we can suggest it. Yes marct has brought up many ideas like this before. What I think is key is that this is truly aimed at acheiving a systems level effect not just a target level effect. Here is the link from SWJED post 2 days ago.

http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?p=40907#post40907

[Rob Thornton]

Last sentence:


"I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."

This is one of those things that makes you hope we will see beyond what a government can do specifically for us, and consider how the efforts of the people who live there will effect the strategic landscape. Such efforts as these should be quietly and discreetly reinforced (and it may not be the U.S. who might be in the best position to do so), and where pratical lauded (practical in terms of remembering who we are and what we might represent by being too enthusiastic) - as Steve and Slap mentioned above.

Also from a strategic history perspective, we might do well to remember the course of the Reformation in Christianity - it was not instantaneous, it was not entirely passive, and it created social ripples which were not well understod for hundreds of years. While the article uses the the qualifier "reformation" like, the end quote still shows the understanding of the fundamental changes in perspectives this could lead to.

Change of this nature is often accompanied by violence once it gains enough momentum to threaten identity or authority. In today's inter-connected world, what begins in Turkey can have an effect in many other locations. While Turkey may be progressive and secure enough to moderate the potential for violence to levels that don't result in a slide toward instability, other states may not. An idea that is acceptable in Ankara, my cause an upheaval elsewhere. It may not be a visible flash fire, but like many challenges to central identity values, - it may evolve for awhile before we really know what it means.

Turkey has significant historical meaning to Islam - I'll be surprised if groups such as AQ do not contest it. I'll be surprised if its challenging of certain accepted passages in the Hadith, and the meanings which some derive authority from do not put it at odds with states such as Iran.

For our own part, perahps we should acknowledge the Turks desire to better understand its Faith, and their intellectual and spiritual courage to do so. Hopefully we can do it with seeming to be opportunistic, or exploiting in nature - to do so could set up a backlash that might put any such movement in jeapordy.

Best, Rob

[slapout9]

Hi Rob, yes and part of the article states that they chose the Hadith as opposed to the Koran to avoid certain obstacles like the ones you mention. And a reformation is not really the right word IMHO...more how Islam can better interface with the modern world as opposed to some earth shattering reformation. It may not even get off the ground either.

[Steve Blair]

To a certain extent, that's what the Christian Reformation did...allow the religion to interface better with the (for the time) modern world. I suspect it will get off the ground (and most likely has, given the tone of the article), but it's important that the "instant gratification" folks put on the strongest muzzle they can find and sit in the corner until it's done.

Something like this is going to take time, especially in a culture and framework where time has a different context and meaning than we typically use. And as Rob hints, there will be violence associated with it. I honestly don't think that can be debated. It might not happen in Turkey (where there is a working identity framework that can to an extent support such changes), but it will happen elsewhere. It's going to be hard for the West to keep focused on the context of these changes, IMO. We can only hinder them, not help them, if we get involved (or if it LOOKS LIKE we're getting involved).

[Tom Odom]

This without doubt the most impprtant step that Turkey has taken since Attaturk pulled the country off Sharia and put it on the path to modernization. For the greater Muslim world it offers a way to offset the stranglehold of fundamentalism while staying within accepted limits. Not only do we need to allow this to go forward without interference (including obvious cheerleading), we must be able to accept less than perfect results.

best
Tom

[Eden]

I often thought that the single most effective thing we could have done in the struggle against Islamic radical fundamentalism was to teach every Muslim in the CENTCOM AO to read Arabic. I was stunned when I realized that many of the poor souls who emerge from so-called madrassas can't even read the Koran, having been taught by equally ignorant mullahs. All they know is what they have been told is in their own holy book - and often that is at odds with what a reasonable person might draw from the text.
As others have pointed out, there are obvious historical parallels: Christianity in the Middle Ages, when illiterate priests parroted a Latin they did not understand from Bibles that were themselves corrupted versions of the original texts. At least they had the discipline of a 'mother' church that obviated the worst deviations.
But, happy as I am to see something like this being done, I hope we don't touch it with a ten-foot thumb drive. Fiddling with the text is likely to cause a huge amount of unrest in both the long and short-runs. Associating with it in any way will not help our cause.

[slapout9]

Hi All, The other concern I have is that analysts will try to measure it:eek: how well are we doing type situation. They should be locked up and take their pencils and computers away and tell them them they want see any results in their lifetime, but it is the right path to be on.

[Rob Thornton]

Not only do we need to allow this to go forward without interference (including obvious cheerleading), we must be able to accept less than perfect results.

Tom, good point. I am reminded of an author who quoted a Congresswoman about how long we should give China to create conditions acceptable to our views of "freedom of the press" - it seems her vision was measured in months, it was certainly a drop in one of the deepest of cultural wells.

The recent U.S. political debate about the Turkish role (as the successor to the Ottoman Empire govt. of Imail Enver) the death of many Armenians around 1915, shows our exploitive nature, when it comes to pursuit of domestic hay over the long term foreign policy goals it risks.

This is going to take time. Its going to be awkward. Its potentially going to be at odds with our immediate goals at times. Which ever party gets into the White House, the leadership required to look beyond their tenure and creae a vision for what things might be for our children and children's children should be balanced against the desire to act, or speak. Do we have a role to play? Probably, we're so interconnected in so many ways (NATO, Iraq, the ME, the Trans Caucuses) - but the rule of "just because you can do something, does not mean you always should" needs to be observed.

Overall I'd classify the role as "supporting", but at times in related efforts - such as ensuring AQ and like organizations (or other regional players) do not have the strategic freedom of movement to disrupt this effort to further qualify itself over time - a more engaged role may be required.

I think this is where the term "Grand Strategy" comes into play - that gets us beyond the sole use of military strategy to help us and our friends, partners and allies acheive their goals (in this case the freedom to conduct its own affairs). This won't be easy for us, we don't have a form of government that lends itself to unified purposes - we are purposefully at odds with ourselves in many ways. Minimizing the potential internal disruptions we might represent will be tough I think - we're not culturally attuned to letting things develop if they seems be in our interest to intervene - demonstrating strategic patience will be tough.

Best, Rob

[Ron Humphrey]

Actually it's been discussed well before that (I think Marc might have mentioned something similar, and it's also been kicked around in other areas). It's important enough I thought it should have its own space.

The catch with "influencing Islam" is that it has to come from within. WE can't really do anything other than sit back and (very) quietly cheer from the sidelines. Anything else is subject to spin and manipulation (and I'm sure somewhere there's a group claiming that this is a CIA plot).

;)

[marct]

Hi Rob,


Also from a strategic history perspective, we might do well to remember the course of the Reformation in Christianity - it was not instantaneous, it was not entirely passive, and it created social ripples which were not well understod for hundreds of years. While the article uses the the qualifier "reformation" like, the end quote still shows the understanding of the fundamental changes in perspectives this could lead to.

Oh, my... been practicing "understatement" as a discursive genre ;)? Yeah, given that the history of reformation moves inside the Catholic Church parallels most of the military history of the same time period, "not entirely passive" is a phrase that is just so.... "British" :D!


Overall I'd classify the role as "supporting", but at times in related efforts - such as ensuring AQ and like organizations (or other regional players) do not have the strategic freedom of movement to disrupt this effort to further qualify itself over time - a more engaged role may be required.

Agreed - my guess is about 100-200 years. Turkey is an excellent start point, but there are also other areas we should be looking at in this situation: Dubai and Brunei come to mind.


I think this is where the term "Grand Strategy" comes into play - that gets us beyond the sole use of military strategy to help us and our friends, partners and allies acheive their goals (in this case the freedom to conduct its own affairs). This won't be easy for us, we don't have a form of government that lends itself to unified purposes - we are purposefully at odds with ourselves in many ways. Minimizing the potential internal disruptions we might represent will be tough I think - we're not culturally attuned to letting things develop if they seems be in our interest to intervene - demonstrating strategic patience will be tough.

Again, agreed. It is unfortunate that democracies and republics are notoriously poor at Grand Strategy on the whole - at least when they are in a "major player" spot (it works better when you are a minor player).

[Tom Odom]

Agreed - my guess is about 100-200 years. Turkey is an excellent start point, but there are also other areas we should be looking at in this situation: Dubai and Brunei come to mind.

Maybe, Marc, but Dubai still is tied to Arabic in a way that is self-limiting. Brunei I just don't have a feel for. I will say this, however, that if he Turks go foward with this, they are very likely to much faster than we might expect. I also believe that a "reformed" hadith would be well recieved in some areas of Africa.

Best

Tom

[Rob Thornton]

Oh, my... been practicing "understatement" as a discursive genre ? I'm exploring new techniques (well new to me anyway):D

I was thinking about several things over lunch:

1) the role of patience and "inaction" - sometimes doing nothing can be seen as doing something - particularly if you have the means to choose otherwise. Strategic restraint might be an "action" to match a chosen narrative. However, its also worth noting that great efforts might be required to restrain the impulse to act.

2) the second thing was the inter-connectedness. The BBC as the source - and the many Muslims who reside in the EU and other than the ME. The media will certainly play a role.

3) the broader socio-politico changes that accompany movements that call for change in fundamental understandings of how we view the world. This week we were all talking about the declaration of Kosovo, and what that might mean in a broader sense - is there a broader theme we're overlooking because we're participants?

Best, Rob

[marct]

Hi Tom,


Maybe, Marc, but Dubai still is tied to Arabic in a way that is self-limiting. Brunei I just don't have a feel for. I will say this, however, that if he Turks go foward with this, they are very likely to much faster than we might expect. I also believe that a "reformed" hadith would be well recieved in some areas of Africa.

I think for me, looking at it as an Anthropologist, the key is in a) the desire to reconsider / reinterpret religious doctrine and b) the process set in place to do so. Turkey is doing it in a fairly systematic, centralized manner. Dubai is doing it via "lived reality" and at the insistence of it's monarch, and Brunei did several decades ago in response to too much wealth. The key, for me, is that they are all engaged with "current reality" in some stance of negotiation. This parallels a lot of reformation history with different groups dealing with the rise of modern nation states, new technologies and new patterns of social interaction.

That 150-200 years was based on the acceptance within Islam as a whole of these "new" forms of Islam (i.e. that they actually are part of Islam, even if viewed as "wrong").

[slapout9]

1) the role of patience and "inaction" - sometimes doing nothing can be seen as doing something - particularly if you have the means to choose otherwise. Strategic restraint might be an "action" to match a chosen narrative. However, its also worth noting that great efforts might be required to restrain the impulse to act.
Best, Rob

That is exactly right. As long as you are alive and an open(living) system doing nothing is actually doing something as opposed to a closed(dead) system which by defenition can not adapt or choose.


I just re-read that...it's all Zen like and stuff....part of SBW.:wry:

[marct]

Hi Rob,


1) the role of patience and "inaction" - sometimes doing nothing can be seen as doing something - particularly if you have the means to choose otherwise. Strategic restraint might be an "action" to match a chosen narrative. However, its also worth noting that great efforts might be required to restrain the impulse to act.

I'm with the Buddhists on this one - non-action is a choice and form of action. Rather than structuring the political question as "What can we do to help", I think it should be structured as "Is there any way in which you would like us to help?".


2) the second thing was the inter-connectedness. The BBC as the source - and the many Muslims who reside in the EU and other than the ME. The media will certainly play a role.

Too true!


3) the broader socio-politico changes that accompany movements that call for change in fundamental understandings of how we view the world. This week we were all talking about the declaration of Kosovo, and what that might mean in a broader sense.

One of my favorite sayings is "I am the wisest man I know, for I know that I know nothing." (I love Socrates despite his [mis-]appropriation by that fascist Plato :D). It takes no courage to say "This is the truth!!!" and try to force others to accept it, but it takes an immense amount of courage to say "I don't know" and then try to find out. Personally, I am hoping that Al-Ghazali is currently reincarnated and working on an updated version of the Iḥyaʾ ʿulum al-dīn (http://www.ghazali.org/site/ihya.htm).

[BillClewis2]

Although it represents Turkey's future hopes for continued sane interaction with the West, Kemalism, and its stridency, is dying as a character ethic in Turkey. One only has to be informed of the increased ascendancy of Islamism in the Parliament and governmental institutions to know the direction of the country. After decades of trying to satisfy both camps, East and West, it is slowly being pulled back to its pre-revolutionary mindset. I have many Turkish friends who agree the writing is on the wall.

[AmericanPride]

Although it represents Turkey's future hopes for continued sane interaction with the West, Kemalism, and its stridency, is dying as a character ethic in Turkey. One only has to be informed of the increased ascendancy of Islamism in the Parliament and governmental institutions to know the direction of the country. After decades of trying to satisfy both camps, East and West, it is slowly being pulled back to its pre-revolutionary mindset. I have many Turkish friends who agree the writing is on the wall.

I'd have to do a little more research on the power structure in Turkey, but this seems like (1) a bid by the government to head-off Islamic revival in the country in anticipation of further social adjustment, or (2) an attempt by Erdoğan's faction (the Department is subordinated to the Prime Minister's office) to make the politicalization of Islam more appealing to the population-at-large in light of the political and legal events prior to the announcement. Either way, it's a state-driven event and we have to be careful in our assessment about which interests it represents.

We can't forget also that the Christian reformation took place in a complex political environment complemented by a stagnate, but loosening, economic and social order. Much of Protestantism's success was a result of political exploitation; German princes and other rulers anxious to break the influence of the Church harnessed the independence that Protestant theology enabled -- and with a bit of luck, managed to win decisive battles against Catholic-inspired armies. The situation in Turkey is vastly different, and I don't think we should be optimistic about its potential.

As a result of Turkey's state secularism, cultural history, and ethnic separation from the Middle East, is the credibility of the revision already undermined in other Islamic countries (particularly the Arab World)? Because of the centralized nature of Islamic states (specifically in the Middle East and North Africa), what is the likelihood that the spirit of reformation will ever reach the Arab street?

[BillClewis2]

I'd have to do a little more research on the power structure in Turkey, but this seems like (1) a bid by the government to head-off Islamic revival in the country in anticipation of further social adjustment, or (2) an attempt by Erdoğan's faction (the Department is subordinated to the Prime Minister's office) to make the politicalization of Islam more appealing to the population-at-large in light of the political and legal events prior to the announcement. Either way, it's a state-driven event and we have to be careful in our assessment about which interests it represents.

We can't forget also that the Christian reformation took place in a complex political environment complemented by a stagnate, but loosening, economic and social order. Much of Protestantism's success was a result of political exploitation; German princes and other rulers anxious to break the influence of the Church harnessed the independence that Protestant theology enabled -- and with a bit of luck, managed to win decisive battles against Catholic-inspired armies. The situation in Turkey is vastly different, and I don't think we should be optimistic about its potential.

As a result of Turkey's state secularism, cultural history, and ethnic separation from the Middle East, is the credibility of the revision already undermined in other Islamic countries (particularly the Arab World)? Because of the centralized nature of Islamic states (specifically in the Middle East and North Africa), what is the likelihood that the spirit of reformation will ever reach the Arab street?

There are no historinc/cultural equivalents within Islam to the Reformation or Enlightenment, especially with regard to true toleration of minority religions (see dhimmitude...). Equating the basis or end product of Western intellectual or social growth to Islamic permutations is a non-starter.

Erdogan had his origins in outlawed radical Islamist parties. When he and his fellow travelers were set back by Kemalist devotees, he simply took the long-view. Going slower in ones efforts to "reform" the system does not mean those efforts will not continue. Each gain merely confirms the expectation for more.

Immigration will be the core issue for Turkey's entrance into the EU, not its religious history. After that is ultimately denied them, the Turkish peoples will resentfully feel discrimiated against and will begin to listen to the "We told you so..." rhetoric of the firebrands.

[marct]

Hi Bill,


There are no historinc/cultural equivalents within Islam to the Reformation or Enlightenment, especially with regard to true toleration of minority religions (see dhimmitude...). Equating the basis or end product of Western intellectual or social growth to Islamic permutations is a non-starter.

First, while you are correct that there are no equivalents, there are analogs. If you actually examine the Reformation period closely, you will notice that it was composed of a whole slew of social-religious movements operating outside of the Catholic Church. Many of these were quite similar to modern day al Queada, such as the Fraticelli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraticelli), while others were more rooted in popular unrest (e.g. such as der Deutsche Bauernkrieg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasants%27_War)and Hizbolla).

As far as tolerance of minority religions is concerned, consider the provisions of the Peace of Augsburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Augsburg) and the specific provisions of the principle of Cuius regio, eius religio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuius_regio%2C_eius_religio) - they only applied to Catholics and Lutherans; a situation that is quite analogous to the various agreements between Sh'ia and Sunni. If you want to talk about Dhimmitude, consider how the Holy Roman Emperors dealt with the Jewish population of Prague, how the American government dealt with the Mormons in the 1850'-80's, or how the Texas court system deals with custody issues amongst neo-pagan witches today.

Marc

[BillClewis2]

"...end product of Western intellectual or social growth to Islamic permutations...", by stating this I had hoped to avoid the "but have you considered..." replies, given that we are discussing present state conditions, present day social values, and what is in front of us now.

Yes, as a Catholic I am intimately familiar with historic events which we, today, would find reprehensible. Including the treatment of the Jews throughout Europe, i.e. expulsion from Spain in 1492, etc. etc. Oftentimes when discussing these present day issues, there is a smidgen of moral equivalence, based upon distant past events that creeps into the conversation. I don't speak for the past, only for what we face today and into the forseeable future.

What is frequently ignored is that the Church's condemnation and actions against heresies were frequently to maintain social stability, not merely its authoritative position. Bakunins "Anarchists" had nothing on many of the heretical groups of that period. Even Martin Luther was indecisive about leaving the Church.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It is in discussion that we re-confirm convictions and learn to speak with greater clarity. Tschuss.