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Tom Odom
03-02-2008, 03:04 PM
Wow talk about return to earlier days. This will make the "Bambi is a person too" crowd really happy :wry:

Teaching Marines to be like hunters (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20080229-9999-1n29hunter.html)



Unorothodox war training emphasizes 'primal skills'By Rick Rogers
February 29, 2008

Trying to become predators instead of prey, Marines headed to Iraq will go through training built on advice from big-game hunters, soldiers of fortune and troops who grew up around firearms in the woods or the inner city.

Marines took part in a Combat Hunter training exercise yesterday at Camp Pendleton, where a mock Iraqi police officer was shot down in a simulated Iraqi village.

After the training scenario, 55 Marines gathered for a debriefing by Greg Williams, a former police officer and big-game hunter.

The "body" of a mock Iraqi police officer shot by an enemy sniper was carried off during an exercise for the Combat Hunter program, which is training troops to unleash deadly force only after determining it is warranted.
Combat Hunter, a program begun at Camp Pendleton and now being rolled out nationwide, is designed to help Marines stalk and kill insurgents by using their senses and instincts. It emphasizes keen observation of Marines' surroundings and meticulous knowledge of their foes' habits.

slapout9
03-02-2008, 03:32 PM
Hi Tom can you check the link? I don't think it is working.

Van
03-02-2008, 03:37 PM
Although BSA doesn't like to admit the military connection, Baden-Powell retired from the British Army at the request of the King (when a field marshall's baton was still a distinct possibility for him) to energize Boys Scouts. All the city kids with no fieldcraft joining the army was worrying (understandably) the Crown. (And "Aids to Scouting for NCOs and Men" by B-P is still worth reading.)


Marines headed to Iraq will go through training built on advice from ... troops who grew up around firearms in the woods or the inner city.

The inner city piece is interesting, but makes perfect sense. A kid from the sticks of Alabama might know how to hunt, but does not have the visceral understanding of how gangs work that a kid from the NYC projects would. What's going on in Baghdad looks more like the Crips and the Bloods than anything else I can compare it to.

Tom Odom
03-02-2008, 10:01 PM
Hi Tom can you check the link? I don't think it is working.

Thanks mate. Fixed!

selil
03-03-2008, 03:18 AM
Can I use my bow? And if Tinks brings in Bambi what brings in the bad guys? Beer? I really doubt they are teaching anybody to fox walk but all soldiers should be exposed to real field craft at some point.

Ron Humphrey
03-03-2008, 03:24 AM
How the only part I saw about learning how to determine when to and not to attack was almost hidden Everything else seemed to focus on the idea of how to make a natural born killer. Are we sure thats not almost the opposite of what the intent is?

selil
03-03-2008, 03:36 AM
How the only part I saw about learning how to determine when to and not to attack was almost hidden Everything else seemed to focus on the idea of how to make a natural born killer. Are we sure thats not almost the opposite of what the intent is?


It looks like they are teaching observational skills more than woodcraft. Watching to see who the actors are from afar and then bring in the pain. I think (don't know for sure) the term is "observational sociology" what the sociologists do when they are watching behaviors in the real world only at a tactical versus research level. I'm not sure though the article doesn't include much on the actual training.

Ken White
03-03-2008, 05:13 AM
experienced guys. It's pretty well rounded and a mix of urban and boonie tips and techniques. They've been doing it about a year and it's getting better with each iteration. So I've been told by one who probably knows.

William F. Owen
03-03-2008, 08:35 AM
Combat Hunter, a program begun at Camp Pendleton and now being rolled out nationwide, is designed to help Marines stalk and kill insurgents by using their senses and instincts. It emphasizes keen observation of Marines' surroundings and meticulous knowledge of their foes' habits.

Wow! So what were they doing before? Walking around with traffic cones on their heads. I spent most of my basic training "stalking." When we could "stalk" with rifles, we stalked with GPMG and 84mm... then we stalked some more.

Using "senses and instinct?" The alternative would be using blindness and stupidity?

I think this article must be BS. I can't believe the USMC is that stupid not to already have this inculcated into every marine from birth.

Tom Odom
03-03-2008, 02:14 PM
Wow! So what were they doing before? Walking around with traffic cones on their heads. I spent most of my basic training "stalking." When we could "stalk" with rifles, we stalked with GPMG and 84mm... then we stalked some more.

Using "senses and instinct?" The alternative would be using blindness and stupidity?

I think this article must be BS. I can't believe the USMC is that stupid not to already have this inculcated into every marine from birth.

The reality has nothing to do with stupidity and everything to do with awakening and shapening dormant senses, especially when actually discussing killing in a society where it is sanctified in computer games even as we try and remove it from the same society.

Tom

Ken White
03-03-2008, 04:24 PM
...
I think this article must be BS. I can't believe the USMC is that stupid not to already have this inculcated into every marine from birth.

How many times have Norfolk and I written -- the US does NOT train the basics at all well, the Commonwealth Armies do. We in the US were able to gloss over that for years because up until WW I we were an agrarian society and many of those skills were present upon entry; that remained generally true up to about Korea, been all down hill since then. The problem is that society has changed significantly since then while the training process stagnated and is just now starting to catch up.

Don't knock 'em for not doing it before, that's over and done -- applaud 'em for finally doing a little.

Now, if we can just wake the US Army up a tad...

selil
03-03-2008, 04:28 PM
How many times have Norfolk and I written -- the US does NOT train the basics at all well, the Commonwealth Armies do. We in the US were able to gloss over that for years because up until WW I we were an agrarian society and many of those skills were present upon entry; that remained generally true up to about Korea, been all down hill since then. The problem is that society has changed significantly since then while the training process stagnated and is just now starting to catch up.

Don't knock 'em for not doing it before, that's over and done -- applaud 'em for finally doing a little.

Now, if we can just wake the US Army up a tad...

According to a book I was reading (sorry I can't remember which one) after WW2 the United States in the period of only four or five years switched. Agrarian to suburban industrialized. Foggy memory fading fast.... It seems that tools and jobs increased, decreasing farm labor requirements, increasing industrial worker needs. It took time to cement but everything was effected from labor relations to what people did on the weekend. Community service and recreation jumped and solitary sporting activities like hunting fell away.

Dang can't remember which book that was in.... 32 books in 16 weeks of sociology and my brain is mush.

120mm
03-04-2008, 08:37 AM
Wow! So what were they doing before? Walking around with traffic cones on their heads. I spent most of my basic training "stalking." When we could "stalk" with rifles, we stalked with GPMG and 84mm... then we stalked some more.

Using "senses and instinct?" The alternative would be using blindness and stupidity?

I think this article must be BS. I can't believe the USMC is that stupid not to already have this inculcated into every marine from birth.

Ummm, yes?!?

Take a look at some of the pictures taken, of US Troops in "tactical" formation, walking down the streets, that make it to the open press.

But please don't speak the "traffic cone" thing too loudly, it will become mandatory wear, should some of the O-6s in charge hear about it.

marct
03-06-2008, 02:39 PM
Hey Selil,


According to a book I was reading (sorry I can't remember which one) after WW2 the United States in the period of only four or five years switched. Agrarian to suburban industrialized. Foggy memory fading fast.... It seems that tools and jobs increased, decreasing farm labor requirements, increasing industrial worker needs. It took time to cement but everything was effected from labor relations to what people did on the weekend. Community service and recreation jumped and solitary sporting activities like hunting fell away.

The trend started in the 1920's and was accelerated by the Great Depression and WW II was the final tipping point in the US (it was earlier in Canada; right after WW I). The tipping point was the expansion of transportation and communications infrastructures combined with the need for large corporate farms and centralized manufacturing facilities for war production (which, combined with a much lower population, is why it happened earlier in Canada).


Dang can't remember which book that was in.... 32 books in 16 weeks of sociology and my brain is mush.

Damn, but that's masochistic!

Boot
03-07-2008, 12:07 PM
back in the 80's, stressing many of the same things; They were called LICEX's. Low Intensity Conflict Exercises. Now we didn't have gang Cops teaching techniques, we did have former gangbangers:eek:.

jcustis
03-07-2008, 01:26 PM
I thought the premise of the program was BS too when I first heard about it, and then I had to help send Marines to it! I failed to get feedback from the students before they were sucked up into pre-deploy actions, but it tends to make sense that we are coming back to some things that may seem utterly common sense.

There used to be basic tracking lanes at the schoolhouses that produced infantrymen, but that went away sometime after I attended in 1993. I do not know if the training has returned, but combat tracking has certainly come into vogue to a degree as well.

Rhodesian
03-09-2008, 11:31 PM
Sirs

My own experience with genuine field craft would suggest that this is instinctive, and "town boys" very rarely have it, despite the best training available.

I wonder if anyone has read the book "Mark of the Warrior"? Based on British action against the Japanese during WWII, it portrays the problem of "instinct", or rather the lack of it. I apologise if this sounds arrogant, but if you dont know what its like for the insects to "talk" to you, you havent got "it".

I.R

William F. Owen
03-10-2008, 05:55 AM
My own experience with genuine field craft would suggest that this is instinctive, and "town boys" very rarely have it, despite the best training available.



I'm not sure I'd agree totally, but you have the bones of a good point, and I'd certainly defer to your experience. I know a good few "Wiltshire" farm boys who stood-to a whole platoon harbour because they couldn't recognise the sound of badger foraging at night.

I'd also say that, from a UK perspective, city boys (and I am not one) tend to make good modern soldiers. If you want technical proficiency, then a British Army member of the Kings Regiment, knew about 62 good ways to steal any car, and the 1st Battalion Royal Green Jackets were pretty good a bank robberies.

...that aside, I am somewhat sceptical as of the lording and deification of "Hiawatha" skills, because the gap between useful and good is vast. I think the majority of what is useful, can be taught and learnt by experience. Providing that training and experience is obviously key.

Urban environments often need to be "read" just as proficiently as rural. EG> "Is that Abdul Badguy's wife just taking out the garbage of is she checking the coast is clear." "Is that guy on the roof just taking some air or is he a look out." etc etc etc. Sorry to bang on with the obvious but I hope this helps.

120mm
03-10-2008, 08:20 AM
Honestly, talent has a lot to do with it.

I would take a "city boy" who is also an outdoors enthusiast, against a "country boy" who doesn't care for the outdoors, any day. I grew up basically out of doors, in the country, but I have an aptitude for woodsmanship. My peers, growing up, had a similar background, but most of them were "duds" in the woods.

Rhodesian
03-10-2008, 05:56 PM
I would take a "city boy" who is also an outdoors enthusiast, against a "country boy" who doesn't care for the outdoors, any day.A sentiment I agree with entirely, however I apologise if my use of the words "City Boys" did not actually reflect my intent, which would be to separate those who have no experience/interest/skills/instinct of woodcraft/bushcraft/desertcraft, from those who do, whether living within cities or not.

At the risk of annoying you further, my real point has been missed, namely "instinct", a quality we are either born with or not, and which develops smartly within an environment where the hunter may also be the hunted. I dont believe any situation within the UK is available to allow for this quality to be exercised to the degree required from an early enough age (paint ball? rofl) , although it may be argued that the Americans do. The UK`s differing culture has ensured that access to rifles etc has been severely restricted, while my own people, for example, were using FN 7.62 rifles etc from below the age of ten. Outside of Pier arcades, most British troops never actually see, let alone use a rifle until basic training, and only then once they are at least 16, but more likely 18 years old, an age far to late to begin to develop genuine "riflemanship" (is that a word?). A paint brush in my hand, for example, makes me a painter, but in the hand of Leonardo Da Vinci he becomes an artist (I`m getting poetic, more beer required . . . .) The same is so for the rifle, I can be a good rifleman through repetitive training, even a marksman, or I can be an instinctive hunter (rifleman or gunner for that matter) - in other words, an artist. These skills are instinctive, not merely trained or drilled for, though for most of us the latter is obviously a starting point: and on this theme, basic British fire and movement drills appear to be excellent.

Anyone can be taught bush skills, be bushcraft proficient, a great woodsman. But "knowing" instinctively when not to walk yourself (or your mates) into an ambush can`t be trained for. Have you ever watched a pretty women swishing her nice butt down the High Street from across the road, only to have her suddenly turn and look you straight in the eye? Instinct. She knew she was being watched (I nearly used the word "hunted" but that might be misconstrued :D). The same goes for anyone else who, for no reason they can explain, has often likewise done the same (know they were being watched, not doing the perving lol :p!) Place people with these "skills" in the bush, with the relevent training and tactics etc, and we have men amply qualified to fight a counter-insurgency war. I am in no way saying that this quality, or the lack of it, means that our present troops are not thoroughly courageous, capable men in a tight spot, superbly fit, and more than "up for it" in a Conventional fight. Merely that modern COIN warfare should have progressed from the era of when we send our best troops out on patrols, have a fire-fight, hopefully win, call in an airstrike, go home for tea.

These were the methods that my own people shifted away from in early 1972, as being largely inefficient. It merely exposed us to ambushing while patrolling the tens of thousands of square kilometers of bush (never mind the elephants, lions etc) - the proverbial long periods of boredom infitrated by short periods of abject terror.

If I may just broaden the discussion a tad, I recommend finding out about Rhodesia`s use of psuedo-terrorists and Fire Force, and start asking why British troops today are expected to tackle Terrence, often with only snatch landrovers in support? Why superbly fit and very courageous RM etc are wasting time and losing bloody good men on endless foot patrols? Why it takes hours to get air support, when the opening play of any attack should be an airstrike? Why our boys are expected to "march up hills," without real-time and active gunship support? Why Terrence is frequently able to leg it away from contacts without getting cut off and then killed? Fire Force provided the solution to all this, while also giving us casevac (Medevac) facilities within a usual 7 minute window, and kill rates in excess of 116 to 1. But perhaps that is another story. I agree 120mm, enough of the warrior crap. Now where`d I put my beer . . . .

www.therli.com (http://www.therli.com)
http://members.tripod.com/selousscouts/

I.R

Ken White
03-10-2008, 06:44 PM
all about on this topic -- and that's pretty much a genetic thing and so is not to be mentioned in polite or politically correct company. The city / country divide isn't the issue; whether the hunter instinct is preserved in the DNA is...

Agree with you on training versus growing up with it.

As to your questions:
"...why British troops today are expected to tackle Terrence, often with only snatch landrovers in support? Why superbly fit and very courageous RM etc are wasting time and losing bloody good men on endless foot patrols? Why it takes hours to get air support, when the opening play of any attack should be an airstrike? Why our boys are expected to "march up hills," without real-time and active gunship support? Why Terrence is frequently able to leg it away from contacts without getting cut off and then killed? Fire Force provided the solution to all this, while also giving us casevac (Medevac) facilities within a usual 7 minute window, and kill rates in excess of 116 to 1. But perhaps that is another story..."

Four words: Egos, risk aversion and bureaucracy.

You could amplify that by adding Armored vests make it hard to chase bad guys who have none.
...I agree 120mm, enough of the warrior crap. Now where`d I put my beerSounds like a good plan to me... :D

selil
03-10-2008, 08:24 PM
I still think a spot and stalk deer bowhunter is going to be the best we can field in woodsmanship (sic).

Norfolk
03-11-2008, 05:16 PM
An old lead hand of mine had tracked, stalked, and hunted since he was a kid. While most other guys were up in their stands waiting for a deer to come along, he was moving upwind down in the ravines and creek-beds with his bow, nailing deer at close quarters as they tried to hide amongst the cover. He could also catch wild turkey unawares often, a pretty tough thing to do with their hearing, and nail them on the spot with the shotgun or follow them underneath brush as they tried to escape, and then nail them as they broke free of the brush.

This guy clearly had the hunter's instinct, honed from a tender age, and he could frequently pull off feats that a lot of other hunters had rather more difficulty with - or wouldn't attempt in the first place, being content to stay in their stands or hunker down in their hides.

It used to be that not only did a lot of folks hunt, but in the Army, hunting was not just a social event. The old Jaeger regiments (admittedly a self-selecting elite) made frequent hunting a requirement for their officers, and even line regiments in many Armies considered hunting an important part of the professional formation of a young officer. In those days, hunting was a staple of basic fieldcraft training; I suspect that it could be used as such nowadays, albeit to a more limited extent. Certainly regular hunting would contribute more to the professional development of the officer, never mind the soldier, than attending regular meetings of the Rotary Club.

Ken White
03-11-2008, 05:25 PM
...
attending regular meetings of the Rotary Club.

went to one -- never again... :rolleyes:

William F. Owen
03-12-2008, 08:51 AM
I have to say that I am extremely sceptical of all the "Hunter/Jeager" stuff and I went into the Army as lad who had a pretty good "Shooting and Fishing" background. - and be warned, Fly Fishing is NOT a good way to meet hot chicks, when you are a teenager - unlike stealing cars and dealing drugs!

...but, my impression of modern soldiers is that solid and well honed trade skills is more useful than the "I can track a hamster through the leaf canopy," type of stuff that gets hyped. Those skills can best be accessed by leveraging the Indig, who may be persuaded to work for you. The IDF do not even try to teach tracking. They just hire the Bedouin.

I'd far rather have a Company of physically fit, technically skilled "tradesman" who understood radios, weapons, and their tactical application. - and could apply it to the terrain and population as required, than some bunch of "wood rangers" who may be out of their depth in down town "Bint Shed" at o'dark thirty in the AM.

I'm far more impressed with Snipers who can shoot, and use the radio, than someone who has all the Ghillie suit Ninja skills.

selil
03-12-2008, 01:12 PM
Ah the cultural divide between brits and americans.

Wilf, in America the hunter, ghillie suit ninjas ARE the tradesman, mechanics, and in general skilled labor force (class). There is a strong correlation between outdoors activities and tradesman status in America. Then again most of our soldiers enter service between 18 and 20 years and that doesn't allow for journeyman status in any trade. So what you get in skills are those few things picked up in post secondary education institutions, a smattering of unskilled labor types, and a lot of weekend after school sports. 40 year old brick layers and highly experienced electronic techs need not apply. I'd also think that a lot of "country boys" have been to the big city, but very few "city slickers" have been to the country. In America we call it public busing a strange and endearing concept. Imagine you're in Germany and you send your kids to France for school each day. In Colorado, Wyoming, Montana there are kids bussed every day over 100 miles each way (the most extreme cases I can find). They're not sending the kids to the countryside.

So I guess in the end you get ghillie suit ninjas that know what Lois Vuiton is...

Steve Blair
03-12-2008, 01:19 PM
And out here you get the combo. The ranch kid who's hunted forever and can also work on the combine and other major mechanical bits without batting an eye. They're also pretty self-reliant and can be counted on in a pinch to do what's right. Quite a few of them also show a strong ability to adapt to other situations (the "country kid" going to the city, perhaps...it's pretty common here).

Quite a few of the "city kids" we see here are totally out of their depth if they can't get a cell phone signal or find a Starbuck's within a three-block radius of their current position. Their technical skills are limited to downloading songs for the IPod, and on a good day they might be able to find their own asses without using Google Maps.

Tom Odom
03-12-2008, 01:29 PM
From the CSIS Brief on Lebanon 2006 (http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/080311_lessonleb-iswar.pdf) Posted by Jedburg here (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?p=42139#post42139)
Move into Hezbollah ambushes in obvious terrain areas; bunched armor and troops and increased vulnerability.



...but, my impression of modern soldiers is that solid and well honed trade skills is more useful than the "I can track a hamster through the leaf canopy," type of stuff that gets hyped. Those skills can best be accessed by leveraging the Indig, who may be persuaded to work for you. The IDF do not even try to teach tracking. They just hire the Bedouin.

I would suggest that while hiring locals can be a good technique, one thet the US Army on the frontier instutionalized, it is not the complete solution. I don't see a need to track hamsters either. But I do see a need to learn to read the environment around you, an ability that gets dampened in a play station, double decaf double mocha world.

Tom

PS

Then again hamsters (http://www.kewego.co.uk/video/iLyROoaftvnX.html)may not be as innocent as they first appear

slapout9
03-12-2008, 07:00 PM
Don't forget fishing. They know what bait to use and tend to be very good at police sting operations...use the hunters for those that get away:)

Rhodesian
03-12-2008, 08:25 PM
I'd far rather have a Company of physically fit, technically skilled "tradesman" who understood radios, weapons, and their tactical application. - and could apply it to the terrain and population as required, than some bunch of "wood rangers" who may be out of their depth in down town "Bint Shed" at o'dark thirty in the AM.It was for exactly these reasons that the Rhodesian Light Infantry, the "Tradesmen," made up of Rhodies, Brits, Yanks and a few drunken Irish Bastards, operated in parallel with the Selous Scouts, Rhodesia`s "woodsmen," made up of Rhodies and turned guerillas. The Scouts, as pseudo-terrs, found (tracked and infiltrated) the real terrs hiding in the bush or among the civvy population for us, and the RLI (and others) went in by chopper and in Tradesman like fashion killed them. Simple. In 19 years of COIN with fire fights sometimes as often as 3 times a day, we (RLI) lost 86 men KIA, and the Scouts over the 8? years of their establishment lost 40. The terrs were killed by the tens of thousands, which is why we are so popular with the PC brigade.

(And no body armour, helmets, high tech rocketry and all the other stuff you poor sods have to hump around.)

Sorry my china, but with genuine respect, you are fighting a COIN war using Conventional tactics, which is why you don`t see the point of tracking hamsters.

Yeah and you gotta watch those pesky Trout too lol.

I.R

Rex Brynen
03-12-2008, 10:22 PM
I wouldn't underestimate the other skill sets that modern cosmopolitan urban populations might bring to a COIN campaign, including multiple languages, a greater likelihood of global travel, and a lifetime of experience in cross-cultural environments.

In this sense, the Rhodesian COIN experience was a very different fight than the current FM3-24 type engagements. The Rhodesian campaign was rural-centric, whereas Iraq at least is a mix of rural and highly urbanized contexts. More importantly, in both Iraq and Afghanistan enhancing government legitimacy and securing or shifting the political loyalties of the population are a fundamental objective. In Rhodesia, by contrast, the white minority regime was never going to win the long-term legitimacy war, however many battles it might win the bush against African nationalist guerillas.

Van
03-13-2008, 01:10 AM
This discussion brings the greatest strength of the U.S. Army reserve to the front.

A battalion (~400-600 soldiers) will have sysadmins, mechanics, moms, medics, psychologists, construction workers, police, marketing executives, hunters, proficient speakers of at least four languages other than english, college professors, practicitioners of a dozen martial arts, artists in a half dozen media, and a host of other skills. And all these skills are of use to a smart commander in a COIN operation. An infantry battalion might not have the moms, but other than that...

As a leader, what I want is not a hundred crack hunters, but a hundred soldiers with three hundred skills represented, and then I'll make sure the sargeants teach them to hunt so they can survive the fight and use those other skills. A diverse skill set is a powerful baseline.

Real world example: A decade ago, my unit was on the way to the Balkans with about 120 soldiers. We weren't taking our own vehicles, but managing some contracted ones, so the commander didn't want to take any mechanics. I successfully lobbied to take a junior enlisted mechanic who really wanted to go. We needed bodies for the "Hey-you" details, and I argued that we should take a broad range of skills. The CO went along with the idea to shut me up. Sure enough, the contracted bus from the airport to our facility broke down, and our lone mechanic saved the day even before we got set up. I'm sure anyone who has deployed will agree with the utility of a wide range of skills and provide stories better than mine.

William F. Owen
03-13-2008, 07:08 AM
Sorry my china, but with genuine respect, you are fighting a COIN war using Conventional tactics, which is why you don`t see the point of tracking hamsters.


No need to apologise. When I joined the British Army, I actually did basic with 3 former RLI. Had a very good ex-RLI mate as well, so I am pretty up to speed on how the fire force worked. - and the British Army has a fair degree of so called "COIN" skills, so I am more than aware of the problems.

Point being the Selous Scouts, like FRU/JSG/Det in Ulster, were an "ISTAR" group type capability, specific to theatre.

Rhodesia fought a domestic Insurgency, as did the UK in Malaya and Kenya, so the context of the training was always leveraged in that direction. Tracking is purely a "Find" function support tool. Much underrated and mostly not exploited (the UK does have a funded and current tracking school!) - but that does not indicate to me that we need to create platoons of Hiawathas.

- and as an aside, back in 1988, I actually learned how to "track" Soviet AFVs at the NATO-LRRP School. Not sh*t. We had to learn to recognise all the different track pad patterns!

120mm
03-13-2008, 08:38 AM
This discussion brings the greatest strength of the U.S. Army reserve to the front.

A battalion (~400-600 soldiers) will have sysadmins, mechanics, moms, medics, psychologists, construction workers, police, marketing executives, hunters, proficient speakers of at least four languages other than english, college professors, practicitioners of a dozen martial arts, artists in a half dozen media, and a host of other skills. And all these skills are of use to a smart commander in a COIN operation. An infantry battalion might not have the moms, but other than that...


The Army Reserve doesn't really care what your non-US Army-trained skills are, and will fight as hard as they can, seemingly, to keep you from doing what you're good at.

Which is the greatest WEAKNESS of the US Army Reserves. I have been fighting that battle for the last 10 years, and it has become quite the sore spot with me.

The Army Reserve is working so hard to be just like "Big Army" that they have virtually removed any real advantage they ever had.

Van
03-13-2008, 11:19 AM
120mm I feel your pain, but I did say "A smart commander".

As a leader, to heck with the Personnel bean counters, I'll dig to find out what my people bring to the fight and use it as I see fit. If we're out in the Never-Never, hunters, are cordially invited to share their knowledge. In an urban environment, it is more subtle, but it is my job to find the [fill in the blank- plumber, EMT, linguists, former gang member, etc] appropriate to the mission, and put that soldier's expertise to use.

If I find out that a platoon leader was pushing an SME to the side for the sake of the formal MTOE, he/she is due some counselling.

And yes, I have been told to STFD/STFU when I tried to marry up expertise and mission needs, but it only makes me more adamant to do what's right when I'm in charge.