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magnusmaximus
03-04-2008, 06:35 AM
Dear Small Wars Council Community,



Is it in the US' interest to support Israel?

It is clear that US support of Israel increases anti-Americanism in the Middle East and distrubs the US' relationship with Arab countries. It definetly makes the US more unpopular in Iraq and Afghanistan, and possibly aggravates violence and/or creates terrorists in the said countries.

What does Israel give in return? Is it worth it?





Thanks,
Magnusmaximus

William F. Owen
03-04-2008, 07:41 AM
1. Is it in the US' interest to support Israel?

2. It is clear that US support of Israel increases anti-Americanism in the Middle East and distrubs the US' relationship with Arab countries. It definetly makes the US more unpopular in Iraq and Afghanistan, and possibly aggravates violence and/or creates terrorists in the said countries.

3. What does Israel give in return? Is it worth it?


1. Yes, because Israel has an absolute right to exist.
2. Rubbish, and even if it were true, what's your point? Doing the right thing is always the hardest thing to do.
3. Israel doesn't have to give anything in return. Do the Bosnian Muslims, or the victims of the Rwandan Genocide owe anybody anything? Does the US issue an invoice every time it does something good?

JJackson
03-04-2008, 11:32 AM
1. Yes, because Israel has an absolute right to exist.
2. Rubbish, and even if it were true, what's your point? Doing the right thing is always the hardest thing to do.
3. Israel doesn't have to give anything in return. Do the Bosnian Muslims, or the victims of the Rwandan Genocide owe anybody anything? Does the US issue an invoice every time it does something good?

1. Why? and why does the same not apply to Palestine?
2. You have to be kidding. US support of Israel is the Islamic Terrorists equivalent of the 'Your country needs you' recruiting poster. Why do you thing unquestioning support of Israel is 'doing the right thing' rather than an attempt to broker a genuine compromise solution.
3. Fair enough - the US gives lots and gets little in return but that is their mistake to make. I am sure the (surviving) Tutsis owe no one anything because very little was done for them to thank us for

William F. Owen
03-04-2008, 12:00 PM
1. Why? and why does the same not apply to Palestine?
2. You have to be kidding. US support of Israel is the Islamic Terrorists equivalent of the 'Your country needs you' recruiting poster. Why do you thing unquestioning support of Israel is 'doing the right thing' rather than an attempt to broker a genuine compromise solution.
3. Fair enough - the US gives lots and gets little in return but that is their mistake to make. I am sure the (surviving) Tutsis owe no one anything because very little was done for them to thank us for

1. It applies to any state, the US wants it to and is not fanatically anti-US. Who else should Israel have looked to to guarantee its right to exist? There is no country called Palestine, and when there is, (and I hope for that day) it will most probably committed against the US, like Syria and Iran.

2. Again, so what if it is? US forces being present in Saudi-Arabia, Iraq and Afghanistan are far more inflammatory than the US support for Israel. Why would anyone care if extremists are offended?

How does Israel, have any less right to US Support than Egypt and/or Jordan? - who both receive substantial support.

I don't object to someone asking the question. I strongly object to Israel being used as the sole example, because it implies that Israel has less right to US security guarantees than other nations.

Tom Odom
03-04-2008, 01:26 PM
The best single piece on this subject that I have seen in nearly 30 years of intense focus on the region is discussed here. (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=614)

Just a note of warning: this is an inflammatory topic. Express your opinions without rancor or don't offer them.

Tom

Adam L
03-04-2008, 02:55 PM
1. It applies to any state, the US wants it to and is not fanatically anti-US. Who else should Israel have looked to to guarantee its right to exist? There is no country called Palestine, and when there is, (and I hope for that day) it will most probably committed against the US, like Syria and Iran.

2. Again, so what if it is? US forces being present in Saudi-Arabia, Iraq and Afghanistan are far more inflammatory than the US support for Israel. Why would anyone care if extremists are offended?

How does Israel, have any less right to US Support than Egypt and/or Jordan? - who both receive substantial support.

I don't object to someone asking the question. I strongly object to Israel being used as the sole example, because it implies that Israel has less right to US security guarantees than other nations.

I agree 100%. I also have to comment that if the Israel was not getting US support, many groups and countries in the Middle east would obviously be far more aggressive towards Israel. I believe we would have any even more unstable situation if this were to transpire.

JJackson: Look, if the Palestinians ever stop electing terrorists then we can talk about aid. I'm all for democracy AND THE RESPONSIBILITIES THAT COME WITH IT! If you elect Hamas, you live with the consequences. (Also, until the arming and training of children and combatants ceases, I will oppose any penny that goes to their aid.) If tomorrow Canada, or any country no matter how friendly, elected a political leadership like Hamas or Hezbollah I would cut them off.

Adam L

jcustis
03-04-2008, 03:28 PM
It is in US interests to support Israel, but not so vehemently that a blind eye is turned towards some of the shenanigans of the last 50 years, because the more you relent, the more that will be taken the next time.

I wrote a research paper on the "special relationship" when I was a young buck in college, and then witnessed it at work firsthand during a few internships (from both sides as I was interning at an Arab lobbying group). Thank you Tom for reminding me that I needed to read the analysis offered up by that thread.

It will always be hard to establish metrics, but I believe that our support and the way it is perceived has done significant damage to our foreign relations capital within not only the Muslim world, but in other parts of the globe. On the flip side, I do respect the Israelis for pulling up there bootstraps and getting their ruck on when times got tough. I just don't agree with most of the policies and practices that stir the pot in that part of the world.

Tom Odom
03-04-2008, 03:33 PM
JJackson: Look, if the Palestinians ever stop electing terrorists then we can talk about aid. I'm all for democracy AND THE RESPONSIBILITIES THAT COME WITH IT! If you elect Hamas, you live with the consequences. (Also, until the arming and training of children and combatants ceases, I will oppose any penny that goes to their aid.) If tomorrow Canada, or any country no matter how friendly, elected a political leadership like Hamas or Hezbollah I would cut them off.

Adam L

And I repeat my warning about opinion adding TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS SHOUTING AND WILL NOT BE TOLERATED, Adam.

Adam L
03-04-2008, 04:59 PM
And I repeat my warning about opinion adding TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS SHOUTING AND WILL NOT BE TOLERATED, Adam.
Typing in all caps is shouting? When was that posted? Sorry, no offense was intended. I'm posting on too many places and getting confused.:(

Adam L

Adam L
03-04-2008, 05:08 PM
Everything is perceptions, but unfortunately the way things are going these days it doesn't matter much what we do. Propaganda no longer relies on even a residue of truth. If we stopped all funding to Israel tomorrow and began an embargo most of the Middle East would still insist on a conspiracy. People love things to be simple and black and white. Conspiracies give them that. The problem is no matter where you go in the world most people generally want to feel good in one way or another. The easiest way to achieve this is to escape reality and ignore logic. This is one of the problems with battling conspiracies. In a sense, we are battling the human condition.

Adam L

(I apologize for this grand over-simplification, but I think it is true to some extent.)

Steve Blair
03-04-2008, 05:12 PM
Typing in all caps is shouting? When was that posted? Sorry, no offense was intended. I'm posting on too many places and getting confused.:(

Adam L

Just to avoid any future confusion for folks (and not just you, Adam), typing in all caps has been considered shouting since the early days of e-mail. It's considered rude at best and very provocative at worst, so it's best avoided unless you're really serious about something or trying to piss people off (usually the latter and not the former).

Adam L
03-04-2008, 05:15 PM
Thanks for that. I've been on the internet since it started, but I never really did any correspondence or anything until very recently. I never understood why people didn't just use the phone.

Adam L

Rank amateur
03-04-2008, 07:30 PM
We pay a high price for supporting Israel unconditionally, including the fact that large chunks of the world will never believe anything we say about freedom/democracy/fairness/curtailing religious extremism because we never insist on any of those things in Palestinian/Israeli relations.

Voters are overwhelming willing to pay the price, don't want to do anything that lowers the price and aren't going to change anytime soon.

Whether it's fair, or should be changed, is a moot question because it isn't going to change.

jcustis
03-04-2008, 08:06 PM
We pay a high price for supporting Israel unconditionally, including the fact that large chunks of the world will never believe anything we say about freedom/democracy/fairness/curtailing religious extremism because we never insist on any of those things in Palestinian/Israeli relations.

Voters are overwhelming willing to pay the price, don't want to do anything that lowers the price and aren't going to change anytime soon.

Whether it's fair, or should be changed, is a moot question because it isn't going to change.

...if I wanted to edit or append my original comments. That die was cast a long time ago.

magnusmaximus
03-05-2008, 05:52 AM
I hope nobody here believes that I was suggesting the US stop supporting Israel.

Personally, I think there are many moral and practical reasons why the US should continue to support Israel.

I just wanted to learn more about what other people thought.

Adam L
03-05-2008, 05:53 AM
We pay a high price for supporting Israel unconditionally, including the fact that large chunks of the world will never believe anything we say about freedom/democracy/fairness/curtailing religious extremism because we never insist on any of those things in Palestinian/Israeli relations.

Whether they believe us about "freedom/democracy/fairness/curtailing religious extremism" isn't really that important. Personally, I don't think we really care that much. What the world knows about us is that we have a short attention span and that we are not consistent on anything. This means we can't be trusted on anything. We can't even be trusted to do what is in our own interest.

[/quote]freedom/democracy/fairness/[/quote]

I want to break down what we say about these issues. (More what we mean even if we won't admit it to ourselves.)

Freedom - We want people to be free. That is as long as they don't want to come and kill us. Also, only so free as that they will not trample on other peoples freedoms or our prosperity.

Democracy - We say we want democracy, but this is ridiculous. We like to think that letting people vote will make them civilized and peaceful. This is absurd. If the entire world went democratic tomorrow it would be just as if not more messed up than before. We forget that the constitution of a country is of the utmost importance. Our country has survived mainly because of our constitution and its definitions of certain rights and privileges. A democratic society without a strong judiciary and a sound legal foundation is doomed to ruins.

Fairness - Not really. We want more of a concept of equity, and only as long as it suits us. LOL! :)


Adam L

Adam L
03-05-2008, 06:05 AM
I hope nobody here believes that I was suggesting the US stop supporting Israel.

Personally, I think there are many moral and practical reasons why the US should continue to support Israel.

I just wanted to learn more about what other people thought.

I think many of us would, but unfortunately I don't there really think this is going to go anywhere. There seems to be a thread on this issue (or something close enough) that pops up every 3-4 weeks. Every time we time we end up with the same arguments, from the same people. From looking back at that which was posted before I joined this board, it looks as though this is the way its always been. (I sound absolutely ridiculous writing, "the way its always been." Could that be more of a cliche? LOL! :)) This issue may in fact just be too hot/loaded.

Adam L

bourbon
03-05-2008, 07:21 PM
magnusmaximus,

Israel shouldered the burden, during certain cases in Africa and Latin America, in the worldwide struggle against communism, in particular when U.S. hands became tied for various reasons. This is something that the Israeli’s gave in return. On a whole, Israel was a strong partner against communism.

I would agree with other posters with regard to support of Israel, that the poison is in the portions. I see our current, near unconditional support for Israel as contrary to our national interest. Lebanon, Palestine, the 2003 Iranian overture, these are all recent cases where I think we did not act in our national interest, and see our unconditional support for Israel as one of the reasons why. Particularly with regards to our Syria policy, I am rather disappointed.

The Assad's superb ability at destroying Jihadis goes largely ignored by an Israel-obsessed political right in our country, and unappreciated by the political left. Our current policy has us backing the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood. I am willing to entertain the notion of backing the Brothers elsewhere, just not the Syrian branch. They were a crucial element of 9/11 and should be killed.

IMHO, the level of unconditional support for Israel in our nation nears beyond-reason, as Paul Pillar recently put it (http://harpers.org/archive/2008/03/hbc-90002538), “Israel needs to be pushed to make concessions, and that’s a topic that we can’t seem to be able to discuss rationally in this country.” It really is a fascinating phenomenon, Walt & Mearshiemer’s work is one of the most intriguing things I have read in political science; Phillip’s American Theocracy covers some of the same ground and is also good.

RA is absolutely correct in saying that “Voters are overwhelming willing to pay the price, don't want to do anything that lowers the price and aren't going to change anytime soon.” With only a little hyperbole here, my fear is that the price someday may very-well be Manhattan or Chicago. This is a price I am unwilling to pay. So if we can take some of the wind out of the salafi-jihadist sails, at cost of halting our unconditional support of Israel, then I am all for it.

Tom Odom
03-05-2008, 07:26 PM
Bourbon,

Excellent post!

Tom

William F. Owen
03-06-2008, 07:18 AM
So if we can take some of the wind out of the salafi-jihadist sails, at cost of halting our unconditional support of Israel, then I am all for it.

I am not sure I understand this. Are you saying that you can appease the Arab extremists by not seeking to assist Israel in its national defence?

The problem the salafi-jihadist have with Israel is their existence. That's not negotiable. At worst the Jihadists seek to kill every Jew in the Middle-East, and at best crush them back to a stateless ethnic minority. That's what is at stake.

It's an utter myth to suggest that the biggest reason the Arab/Islamist extremists hate the US is because of their support for Israel. They hate the US anyway, especially the Iranians, because of all the US interference in their country, over the last 50 years, and about 200 "good" reasons. The Iraq invasion may well have a lot to do with anti-US feeling. Hating Jews is just their cherry on the cake.

Note how Morocco does not care about Israel's existence, as some 18% of Israelis are Moroccans.
Note how Turkey, an Islamic country, is a de facto ally of Israel.

Viewed from an Israeli perspective, US support is not "unconditional." What is more, the majority of Israelis do not want unconditional US support. What they want is the US's assistance to ensure their survival.

99% Israelis know far more about the Middle East, than 99% of Americans and see the US as generally culturally ignorant, especially when it comes to the Arabs, so taking advice/pressure from the US about foreign policy and national survival is not well received.

JJackson
03-06-2008, 01:17 PM
Todays top story on the BBC’s site. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7280026.stm


Gaza's humanitarian situation is at its worst since Israel occupied the territory in 1967, say UK-based human rights and development groups.
They include Amnesty International, Save the Children, Cafod, Care International and Christian Aid.
They criticise Israel's blockade on Gaza as illegal collective punishment which fails to deliver security. . .


From William’s last post


I am not sure I understand this. Are you saying that you can appease the Arab extremists by not seeking to assist Israel in its national defence?

The US is not just assisting Israel in its national defence, it is aiding and abetting the brutal subjugation of millions of people over which Israel has control. Guaranteed US Security Council vetoes make it pointless trying to condemn actions which are roundly condemned by the General Assembly and would precipitate a full scale military invasion if they were the Jewish or Christian minority in Iran.


The problem the salafi-jihadist have with Israel is their existence. That's not negotiable. At worst the Jihadists seek to kill every Jew in the Middle-East, and at best crush them back to a stateless ethnic minority. That's what is at stake.

It's an utter myth to suggest that the biggest reason the Arab/Islamist extremists hate the US is because of their support for Israel. They hate the US anyway, especially the Iranians, because of all the US interference in their country, over the last 50 years, and about 200 "good" reasons. The Iraq invasion may well have a lot to do with anti-US feeling. Hating Jews is just their cherry on the cake.

Yes many Muslim’s – and I – have a problem with the existence of Israel, not just the extremists. Two thousand and eight years ago I believe the Romans were in the processes of conducting a census in Palestine, but I do not have the results to hand, however I assume a fairly high percentage were Jewish. About 100 years ago the population was mainly Muslim and about 5% Jewish, today I think we are back to about 75% Jewish (in Israel excluding the occupied territories). Were I a Palestinian I would be wondering if Balfour and friends had the right to set in train the replacement of my people with some other people whose ancestor had once lived here. I am not sure that there is a lot to be gained in picking our moment in time and trying to right the wrongs of our ancestors what we can and should do is look at the current situation and our recent actions and policies and start from there. I would argue that the level of financial/military, and more importantly political, aid to Israel is well beyond the level needed to protect it. I would further argue this level of aid, and cover, is letting it trample the civil rights and any chance of earning a living of those in the occupied territories and is breeding terrorists and sympathy for their cause. Israel is in a relatively comfortable position; all the best land, a per capita GDP well beyond that of their neighbours (and only a distant dream for Gazans), a military equipped with all the latest kit. Half the world’s population live on $2/day and the US is giving nearly that to each Israeli, 70% of Gazans are now on $1/day which is less than the US aid per Israeli. Where is their incentive to negotiate a more equitable arrangement? If the US took the position 'we will help you protect yourselves but you are perfectly capable of standing on your own feet now, we are not going to bankroll you or give you political cover if you oppress your people and we will redirect aid to the occupied territories to help them become self sufficient' that might send a more useful message to both Israel and the rest of the Muslim world and move us closer to a two state solution (a US aim – at least on paper).



Note how Morocco does not care about Israel's existence, as some 18% of Israelis are Moroccans.
Note how Turkey, an Islamic country, is a de facto ally of Israel.

OK I don’t get the 18% bit but I would lay good money that the average Moroccan cares very much about the plight of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. As to Turkey they are a major recipient of US aid and, like Egypt, are aware that not being too vocal re Israel is a necessary evil if they want to keep the money and to pursue more important domestic concerns – controlling the Kurds for Turkey and not having anyone look too closely at their human rights/democratic process for Egypt.



Viewed from an Israeli perspective, US support is not "unconditional." What is more, the majority of Israelis do not want unconditional US support. What they want is the US's assistance to ensure their survival.

99% Israelis know far more about the Middle East, than 99% of Americans and see the US as generally culturally ignorant, especially when it comes to the Arabs, so taking advice/pressure from the US about foreign policy and national survival is not well received.

With their knowledge of ME history do you think the average Israeli would think they got a fair shake if they had been dumped in Palestine after the Holocaust and found them selves to day in the ghettos of Gaza with occasional fuel, electricity, water, health care and no chance of work as no business can survive with unpredictable access to raw material or markets. I am sure they would be fighting a valiant David and Goliath terrorist war against their oppressors as they did at the foundation of their state. The British administrators of the Palestinian mandate had little doubt who the terrorist were.

Adam’s
if the Palestinians ever stop electing terrorists then we can talk about aid.
It was going to be impossible to write this without talking about terrorists so here goes. Why are Hamas beyond the pail and Fatah not? Both have suicide bombers and rockets launched in their name, the difference is that Hamas are not willing to accept Israel’s right to exist because – like me – they have severe doubts that it was within the prevue of a whole load of white middle-aged Christian from some other part of the world to give away their ancestral lands to a bunch of foreigners who were being shipped in from another continent. I also don’t make a distinction between terrorism by individuals, groups or states for me it is a question how you behave not your politics or who you are acting against. I regret that this definition is not very widely applied and many states, and the US is definitely one of them, apply the term in a rather bizarre and arbitrary fashion. Friendly states can get away with murder (literally) and the same or lesser crimes from others are likely to bring a flood of sanctions. Well meaning – if of dubious legality – interventions like Iraq can lead to hundreds of thousands of additional civilian deaths but no one has the power to call the states responsible to account. Some idiot firing rockets, with the targeting accuracy of a big firework, from Gaza is not the main problem and is never going to be responsible for the kind of death toll I would attribute to a political leader of a state like yours or mine.

Adam L
03-06-2008, 02:35 PM
Adam’s
It was going to be impos'sible to write this without talking about terrorists so here goes. Why are Hamas beyond the pail and Fatah not? Both have suicide bombers and rockets launched in their name, the difference is that Hamas are not willing to accept Israel’s right to exist because – like me – they have severe doubts that it was within the purvue of a whole load of white middle-aged Christian from some other part of the world to give away their ancestral lands to a bunch of foreigners who were being shipped in from another continent. I also don’t make a distinction between terrorism by individuals, groups or states for me it is a question how you behave not your politics or who you are acting against. I regret that this definition is not very widely applied and many states, and the US is definitely one of them, apply the term in a rather bizarre and arbitrary fashion. Friendly states can get away with murder (literally) and the same or lesser crimes from others are likely to bring a flood of sanctions. Well meaning – if of dubious legality – interventions like Iraq can lead to hundreds of thousands of additional civilian deaths but no one has the power to call the states responsible to account. Some idiot firing rockets, with the targeting accuracy of a big firework, from Gaza is not the main problem and is never going to be responsible for the kind of death toll I would attribute to a political leader of a state like yours or mine.


I'm not going into an argument over this because it's not going to go anywhere. In the end I really don't give a damn about what you just said and this is why:


Hamas supports, trains and directs operations targeting civilians. With the only possible goal being to inflict numerous civilians fatalities. Military targets are legitimate. They may be illegal and quite often just as abhorrent, but they are a legitimate targets. The attack on the USS Cole was criminal abhorrent and I had hoped everyone of the people involved in it were found and shot. On the other hand, a US military ship is a legitimate target. On the other hand dressing up as civilians to sneak in close does bring this back up to a non-legitimate action. Still, it is not an attack on civilians. I'm sorry if I am offending anyone in the military with this. I do condemn and hat the low lives that would and do perpetrate such attacks, but I must acknowledge that this is to some extent a lesser offense than targeting civilians
They utilize children in their conflict. They use them as bombers, they are giving 5 year old ak47's and they are molding them into little mindless terrorists. They have little TV shows and school programs teaching these children that killing civilians is OK and in fact a very good thing to do. In my opinion, anyone wherever they are and whomever they are who supports and/or promotes such should be dragged out into the street and shot. (forget about what “crime” it is, they have done something so terrible it doesn't matter) (edit) (I want to make sure no one actually believes I am advocating this. As much as I would care to I understand that this is not a practical option no matter how much some of us may like it to be.) (edit) Children are out of bound and that is that. Until this on its own is stopped, there will be no help of any group that is in any way tied to this.
If the Palestinians were out in the street protesting peacefully and asking for simply human dignity, I am sure both Owen and I would be on their side. The problem is that this isn't the case. They do not even have the common sense to not fly the posters calling for the seas to run red with Jewish blood. If I to this day condemn the IRA and have the most sickening feeling when ever I think that there are people in my country who would, have and do raise money for their actions do you think there is any way I can see clear to having sympathy for this “cause.” I do feel bad for the Palestinians caught in this. Primarily, the children. This is not of their fault, but when they grow up and they have been trained into that form, I know longer have sympathy. This is the same way I feel bad for a kid growing up in Newark who because of his situation gets caught up in a bad crowd. When he grows up and gets involved in serious criminal activity (rape, murder, shootings, etc.) the sympathy goes away. I'd like to help those caught in the middle, but there is no way to do this now.
For me that is how it is, and the rest is immaterial. I know you have a different view of “terrorists” so lets avoid this word. Allow me to amend the statement you quoted.


[/quote] If they ever stop electing “a party that doesn't support the things I described above” then we can talk about aid.[/quote]

Sorry if this is a little strong or harsh JJackson, but I wanted to make this very clear for everyone.



Adam L

Adam L
03-06-2008, 02:39 PM
If the Palestinians were "Buddhist Terrorists" peacefully lighting themselves on fire in the middle of the streets (this is a real showing of religious strength) I think there would be a lot of sympathy for their cause. I am not suggesting they do such, personally I think that goes a bit far, but I am pointing out the wide array of other extreme and media grabbing protest methods at their disposal.

Adam L

William F. Owen
03-06-2008, 02:45 PM
Yes many Muslim’s – and I – have a problem with the existence of Israel, not just the extremists.

Well that honesty at least separates you from most of the Europeans who believe Jews have no right to the safe and secure homeland of their fore fathers.

I know my Middle-East history extremely well as, historically, both sides of my family were intimately involved with both creating and opposing of the formation of the State of Israel - voted into existence by the UN.

I am not posting here to argue with people as to why my home and family should be safe from bigots and extremists. I just know we should be.

...and yes, poor Gaza.

I will clarify one statistic you asked for. 18% of post 1948 immigrants to Israel from Arab countries (>750,000) are of Moroccan origin.

Steve Blair
03-06-2008, 03:02 PM
Ok...this is rapidly going nowhere. Sorry, folks, but it's closing time here at the SWC pub and grill.