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jonSlack
01-09-2007, 02:55 AM
Moderator's Note

Two threads on the impact of the Maras have been merged into this thread(ends).

Military Review Nov-Dec 06 - Are the Maras Overwhelming Governments in Central America? (http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/MilitaryReview/Archives/English/MilitaryReview_20061231_art007.pdf)


Location, organization, and numbers.
El Salvador’s National Police (PNC) say there are 36,000 gang members in Honduras, 14,000 in Guatemala, 11,000 in Salvador, 4,500 in Nicaragua, 2,700 in Costa Rica, 1,400 in Panama, and 100 in Belize. That’s nearly 70,000 in the region. In addition to MS-13 and 18, there are Los Cholos (The Half Breeds), Los Nicas (Nicaraguans), and Los Batos Locos (Crazy Boys) in Guatemala; La Mau Mau (derived from the name of rebels in Kenya and a New York gang in the 1950s) and La Maquina (Machine) in El Salvador; La Mau Mau, Los Batos Locos, and Los Rockeros (The Rockers) in Honduras; and the Gerber Boys and Los Charly in Nicaragua.

The maras are not just a Central American phenomenon; they are transnational. MS-13, for example, reportedly has 20,000 members in the United States, 4,000 members in Canada, and a large presence in Mexico.6 The numbers fluctuate—mara membership being dynamic, and gang membership is difficult to gauge.

Jedburgh
07-04-2007, 12:20 PM
Military Review, Jul-Aug 07: The Maras: A Menace to the Americas (http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/MilitaryReview/Archives/English/MilitaryReview_20070831_art011.pdf)

....Although the mara problem in Central America mainly affects Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras, the region’s other countries should not consider themselves immune: most of the conditions that have given rise to the maras’ appearance in the region’s northern triangle are also present in Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama. Sooner rather than later, these countries will experience similar problems. The mara threat is a serious one. Not controlling it increases risks to the social and democratic stability of the region and has consequences for Mexico and the United States, our neighbors to the north....

Jedburgh
07-05-2007, 03:05 PM
...just for some additional background material on the subject, here are some decent gang assessments published by USAID last year:

Rising crime is threatening democratic development and slowing economic growth across Central America and Mexico. Gang activity has transcended the borders of Central America, Mexico, and the United States and evolved into a transnational concern that demands a coordinated, multi-national response to effectively combat increasingly sophisticated criminal gang networks.

Recognizing that gang activity is a complex, multi-faceted and transnational phenomenon, the USAID Bureau for Latin America and the Caribbean Office of Regional Sustainable Development (LAC/RSD) initiated the Central America and Mexico Gang Assessment in 2005 to study the phenomenon and propose solutions in five countries—El Salvador (http://www.usaid.gov/locations/latin_america_caribbean/democracy/els_profile.pdf), Guatemala (http://www.usaid.gov/locations/latin_america_caribbean/democracy/guatemala_profile.pdf), Honduras (http://www.usaid.gov/locations/latin_america_caribbean/democracy/honduras_profile.pdf), Mexico (http://www.usaid.gov/locations/latin_america_caribbean/democracy/mexico_profile.pdf), and Nicaragua (http://www.usaid.gov/locations/latin_america_caribbean/democracy/nicaragua_profile.pdf).
Central America and Mexico Gang Assessment - Full Report April 2006 (http://www.usaid.gov/locations/latin_america_caribbean/democracy/gangs_assessment.pdf)

Jedburgh
07-19-2007, 08:48 PM
Reuters, 18 Jul 07: U.S. Offers Funds to Fight Central America Gangs (http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN1833949420070719)

The United States pledged $4 million on Wednesday to help Central American governments draft a regional security strategy to fight violent youth street gangs and drug trafficking.

Thomas Shannon, U.S. assistant secretary of state for western hemisphere affairs, made the cash pledge while in Guatemala to sign an agreement with the Central American Integration System (SICA) to improve intelligence sharing and policing.....
DoS, 18 Jul 07: Combating Criminal Gangs from Central America and Mexico (http://www.archive.usun.state.gov/fact_sheet/ecosoc_w11.pdf)

Assistant Secretary for Western Hemisphere Affairs Thomas A. Shannon, Jr. today announced the Strategy to Combat Criminal Gangs from Central America and Mexico. Under this comprehensive strategy, the United States will work with partner countries to combat transnational and other gangs that commit crimes in Central America, Mexico, and the United States through both prevention and enforcement. It will help prevent youth from entering gangs and strengthen the fight against gang-related violence and other crimes. This strategy is one component of a larger regional security plan that was discussed by President George W. Bush, Guatemalan President Oscar Berger Perdomo, and Mexican President Felipe Calderon and now is under development by the Central American countries.....

Jedburgh
08-14-2007, 03:39 PM
CRS, 4 Dec 09: Gangs in Central America (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34112.pdf)

....Several U.S. agencies have been actively engaged on both the law enforcement and preventive side of dealing with Central American gangs. The National Security Council (NSC) created an inter-agency task force to develop a comprehensive, three year strategy to deal with international gang activity. The strategy, which is now being implemented, states that the U.S. government will pursue coordinated antigang activities through five broad areas: diplomacy, repatriation, law enforcement, capacity enhancement, and prevention.

In the 110th Congress, immigration legislation has been introduced – H.R. 1645 (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills&docid=f:h1645ih.txt.pdf) (Gutierrez), S. 330 (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills&docid=f:s330is.txt.pdf) (Isakson), and S. 1348 (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills&docid=f:s1348pcs.txt.pdf) (Reid) – that includes provisions to increase cooperation among U.S., Mexican, and Central American officials in the tracking of gang activity and in the handling of deported gang members. The House passed version of the FY2008 State, Foreign Operations, and Related Agencies Appropriations bill (H.R. 2764 (http://www.rules.house.gov/110/text/110_hr2764.pdf); H.Rept. 110-197) would provide $8 million to the State Department to combat criminal youth gangs, an increase of $3 million from the Administration’s request. In Central America, that funding would support a regional anti-gang initiative aimed at prevention, police training, and judicial reform. On July 31, 2007, the House Committee on Foreign Affairs approved H.Res. 564 (http://www.govtrack.us/data/us/bills.text/110/hr/hr564.pdf) (Engel) recognizing that violence poses an increasingly serious threat to peace and stability in Central America and supporting expanded cooperation between the United States and Central America to combat crime and violence....

Jedburgh
01-15-2008, 02:48 PM
SSI, 15 Jan 08: A Contemporary Challenge to State Sovereignty: Gangs and Other Illicit Transnational Criminal Organizations (TCOs) in Central America, El Salvador, Mexico, Jamaica, and Brazil. (http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB837.pdf)

....The purposes of this monograph are to (1) introduce the gang phenomenon as a major nonstate player and a serious threat in the global and regional security arenas;( 2) examine the gang phenomenon in Central America in general and in El Salvador, Mexico, Jamaica, and Brazil more specifically; and (3) summarize the key points and lessons and make brief recommendations. These cases demonstrate the analytical commonalities of various types of gang activities as they contribute to the instabilities that lead to the erosion of national security, nation-state sovereignty, the processes of state failure, and the struggle between democratic and criminal values.....
Complete 67 page paper at the link.

Surferbeetle
01-21-2008, 08:49 PM
Ran across an interesting post in El Pais today that discusses some of the ongoing issues within Guatemala and their new president's challenges to include narco-trafficking and the possibility of failing state.


¿Es Guatemala la Somalia de América Latina? O, más próximamente, ¿el Haití de Iberoamérica?

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/Guatemala/Estado/fallido/elpepuint/20080121elpepiint_10/Tes

Mike in Hilo
01-22-2008, 03:12 AM
For your posting this, muy agradecido....Haven't been there in a while, but greatly suspect hyperbole, especially in regard to the extent to which the country is singled out for some generic Central American issues (maras, narcotrafficing)...Enough in the article to elicit a "same old Guatemala..." but the narco angle has brought about one huge difference--the customary "saviours of the nation," the Guatemalan Army, have been bought. Interesting to see who will pull the country's chestnuts out of the fire this time..or whether they'll simply muddle along (more likely, I suspect). Historically, Guatemalan solutions have been far from democratic ones. In the early 70's when Arana was president, the sardonic sense of humor of the Guatemalan people labelled one tactic ascribed to COIN forces "TACA"--same as the acronym of the Salvadorean airline, but in this case, "Transportes Aquaticos Carlos Arana," i.e., the bodies of leftists from the Zacapa/Izabal insurgency floating down the Rio Motagua. After left-right conflict lasting a lot longer than the thirty years the article stipulates (You'd want to take it back at least to Arbenz in the early 50's, if not Arevalo), sad (but not unforseeable) that the long awaited peace degenerated seamlessly into gangsterism.

Cheers,
Mike.

Jedburgh
03-15-2008, 03:47 AM
ICG, 14 Mar 08: Latin American Drugs I: Losing the Fight (http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/getfile.cfm?id=3337&tid=5327&type=pdf&l=1)

Years of efforts to reduce coca crops in the Andes by aerial spraying and manual eradication and, to a lesser extent, alternative development programs have had little success. UNODC estimated that combined coca cultivation in Bolivia, Colombia and Peru largely remained stable at a high level between 2004 and 2006. ONDCP now admits not only that 2006 may have seen higher production figures than the peak year of 2000 but also that the 2007 flow of cocaine out of South America exceeded previous record highs. Andean cocaine production potential and availability of the drug in the U.S. and European markets has stabilised at a high level.

Transnational trafficking organisations and cocaine retailers across the Americas and Europe have not been controlled. To the contrary, they have proven capable of adjusting to law enforcement and interdiction by adopting new forms and methods, exploring new routes or reopening old ones and expanding their reach. Despite an increase in seizures worldwide until 2006, there are no convincing indications that availability has been interrupted for any significant length of time in the U.S. and Europe, or the growing Southern Cone markets. Experienced traffickers avoid ostentatious displays of money and power and opt for stealth and corruption in moving hundreds of tons of cocaine annually, relying on street and criminal gangs as retail distributors.

Political tensions between the U.S. and Venezuela, which has become an important trans-shipment point for Colombian cocaine, U.S. inability to control its 2,000-mile border with Mexico and limited EU disposition to coordinate among member states on more rigorous interdiction efforts are major obstacles to supply reduction. The latest flare-up between Colombia, Venezuela and Ecuador, following Colombia’s raids on a FARC camp in Ecuador, while seemingly resolved by diplomacy, is likely to futher complicate border cooperation. But while more cooperation on and from both sides of the Atlantic is certainly needed to reduce cocaine supply, it will never be sufficient. It is, therefore, at least equally important to focus on preventing coca cultivation in the first place through more ambitious alternative and rural development programs in the source countries.....
Complete 42 page report at the link.

Edit to add: Latin American Drugs II: Improving Policy and Reducing Harm (http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/getfile.cfm?id=3338&tid=5328&type=pdf&l=1)

SWJED
05-04-2008, 01:23 AM
Maras in Central America (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2008/05/maras-in-central-america/)
National Security Implications of Gang Activity South of the Border

By COL Terry Saltsman and LTC Ben Welch III, Small Wars Journal


The strategic nature of conflict and violence, in addition to the definition of insurgent, is in a state of rapid change in both the defense and intelligence community. In the post September 11, 2001 world the United States is compelled to take a 360 degree view of the world in its efforts to “observe, orient, decide and act” against potential threats to vital national interests.

The challenge facing today’s defense establishment is an asymmetrical enemy that most Western militaries are ill equipped to challenge and defeat in a manner that is acceptable to the civilian population. If Iraq has taught us anything it is that even the best publicly supported military plan can turn sour, and that support can wane, if the operation morphs into a perceived tar pit. It is imperative that the public’s discernment of the events that will lead to ultimate victory be molded in an honest and realistic manner. This is increasingly essential in our pursuit of terrorists.

In the months following the unthinkable acts of 9/11, many terrorism experts specializing in violent conflict began to ponder the expanded dimensions of the new face of terror as it might apply toward the United States. Soon after, when President Bush introduced the American public to the “War Against Terrorism,” many of these same individuals turned their attention on the obvious avenues of Middle Eastern and Islamic Fundamentalist centric terrorism.

In the past several years the United States has pursued the “War Against Terrorism” on a number of fronts. In one, fighting in a conventional manner, territory has been the central issue with military forces seeking and then taking control of entire countries (Afghanistan and Iraq). In another scenario, Special Operation cells have worked with the military forces of concerned regimes in order to restrict the use of territory by terrorists seeking to establish training camps in countries such as Algeria and Mali.

With so many issues confronting the National Security interests of the United States it is easy to overlook one particular unprotected, and often ignored, flank – the maras (gangs) of Latin America...

Jedburgh
06-24-2008, 06:56 PM
The authors have produced an unfocused, surface treatment of an important issue. The piece adds nothing to the discussion beyond what is already found in existing articles such as Are the Maras Overwhelming Governments in Central America? ( http://usacac.leavenworth.army.mil/CAC/milreview/English/NovDec06/Boraz-Bruneau.pdf) (Nov-Dec 06 Military Review) and The Maras: A Menace to the Americas ( http://usacac.leavenworth.army.mil/CAC/milreview/English/JulAug07/Breve.pdf) (Jul-Aug 07 Military Review).

The first four paragraphs, where they are supposedly setting the stage for their presentation of the Mara issue, wastes space discussing our other security efforts world-wide in an attempt to provide substance to the false premise that the Mara issue is overlooked by our government. There are a couple of federal agencies in particular, not to mention certain elements within the IC, that may take issue with that premise. And a recent surge in legislation focused on the issue – as delineated in a recent CRS Report ( http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34112.pdf), also clearly demonstrate that the situation has got the attention of the government in general. The failure of the authors to take these existing and planned measures into consideration and to put them in critical context, demonstrating their shortcomings and/or failure to address certain aspects of the problem, shows that they have not done their homework. (or purposefully ignored such information so as not to disturb a pre-determined premise for the paper)

In the section titled Background, their elaboration on the origins and background of the Maras is much weaker than that presented in the above two articles. In a piddling quibble, I didn’t care for the use of the term “mara” in the statement, In the United States maras can be viewed as the result of….. Here, they are supposedly looking at the gang issue in general, and they should just use the term “gang” – to me, “maras” connotes Hispanic gangs specifically. By using maras in that manner at the outset, they forego an opportunity to effectively put the Hispanic gangs in the context of broader US gang culture.

The authors spend quite a bit of space discussing economic disparities, but never get into specific context for the three countries most under threat: El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras. Getting to my charge of “unfocused” – they also discuss the economic aspect in both Background and Factors Contributing to the Mara Problem, without really providing any substantive context specific to either section. The ’06 USAID gang assessment (http://www.usaid.gov/locations/latin_america_caribbean/democracy/gangs_assessment.pdf), which does a very good job of putting the economic part of the problem in context, isn’t even cited by the authors. Surprising, since this is one doc that pops up in any simple google search on Central American gangs.

General statements and dated statistics are overly used throughout the piece – more current stats are readily available open-source; yet another indicator of the authors' failure to do their homework.

In The Emerging Mara-Terrorism Nexus and Political Solution the article veers all over the place in this section's few short paragraphs without making a cogent point, and talks more about communist insurgencies in South America than substantive links between the Maras and terrorism. And at the end, the final paragraph is vague and fuzzy, not providing a focused conclusion nor offering even the outline of a political solution as in the section title. The closest the authors come to recommending a COA is in the last paragraph on page 6 of the 10 page paper, in the section on Factors Contributing to the Mara Problem. That section is also where they've put all their conjecture and assumption about the Mara-terrorism nexus.

Poorly researched, poorly written, poorly structured.

bourbon
05-24-2009, 05:56 PM
Panama could become next narco battleground (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-panama-drugs24-2009may24,0,2545721.story), by Chris Kraul. Los Angeles Times, May 23, 2009.

FARC insurgents are increasingly crossing the border from Colombia. Authorities fear that they will spread the drug violence that has convulsed parts of Mexico, Guatemala and Honduras.

Panamanian and U.S. officials say it's no coincidence that drug-related violence has risen in tandem with the more frequent sightings of the guerrillas, whom the State Department labels drug traffickers and terrorists.

U.S. counter-narcotics officials believe that the FARC and other Colombian traffickers are shipping more drugs from Colombia overland across Panama to avoid tighter control of Pacific and Caribbean coastal waterways by the Panamanian and U.S. naval forces.

All this has Panamanian and U.S. officials concerned that Panama could become the next battleground in narco-wars that have convulsed parts of Mexico, Guatemala and Honduras.

Jedburgh
06-19-2009, 05:00 PM
Small Arms Survey, 30 May 09: Gangs of Central America: Causes, Costs, and Interventions (http://www.humansecuritygateway.info/documents/SAS_GangsOfCentralAmerica_CausesCostsInterventions .pdf)

....Although gangs have long been a feature of Central American societies, they have come to the fore in the region in an unprecedented manner since the early 1990s. Estimates of the total proportion of contemporary regional violence attributable to gangs vary widely—from 10 to 60 per cent—as they have been accused of a whole slew of crimes and delinquency, ranging from mugging, theft, and intimidation to rape, assault, and drug dealing. There have even been attempts to linkthem to revolution and global terrorism. A 2005 US Army War College publication (http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB597.pdf), for example, contends that Central American gangs constitute a ‘new urban insurgency’ that has as ultimate objective ‘to depose or control the governments of targeted countries’ through ‘coups d’street’ . Along similar lines, Anne Aguilera, head of the Central America office of the International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs branch of the US State Department, asserted in an interview published in the Salvadoran newspaper La Prensa Gráfica on 8 April 2005 that gangs were ‘the greatest problem for national security at this time in Central America’. Although gangs are unquestionably a significant contemporary concern in the region, such sensationalist pronouncements suggest that they remain profoundly misunderstood. The purpose of this Occasional Paper is to debunk some of these myths and present a balanced assessment of the causes, costs, and interventions relating to Central American gang violence....

bourbon
06-19-2009, 06:44 PM
FYI: Samuel Logan (http://samuellogan.blogspot.com/)'s (of ISN) narrative non-fiction work This Is For The Mara Salvatrucha (http://www.thisisforthemarasalvatrucha.com) is being published in July.

This is a true story of Brenda Paz's last three years of life as a member of the Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13.

She was a young member of the Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, who became a federal informant before she was killed after running away from witness protection. This book uncovers little known truths about the MS-13, one of America's most violent street gangs, and reveals how the street life can be alluring to even well loved kids like Brenda.

This narrative also takes a close look at the the realities of living inside the United States as part of a Latino immigrant community, underscoring the challenges with policing these communities and the fluidity of illegal movement across the US-Mexico border.

SWJ contributor John Sullivan's endorsement is quoted in the promotional material:

"Logan captures the ethos and lethal brutality of Mara Salvatrucha in his groundbreaking case study...The insight presented here adds depth to the discussion of the maras and the networked nature of gangs, their members and cliques in a way that facilitates an understanding of contemporary transnational gangs."

- John Sullivan, Senior Research Fellow, Center for Advanced Studies on Terrorism, and originator of third generation gang theory.

John T. Fishel
06-19-2009, 08:06 PM
has been a problem for Central America and the US since the mid 90s. One of the early articles published was "From Revolutionary Warfare to Criminalization: The Transformation of Violence in El Salvador" by Kimbra L. Fishel (yes, if you want to know, my wife:cool:) in LOW INTENSITY CONFLICT & LAW ENFORCEMENT, vol 6, no 3 (Winter 1997), pp. 48-63. A point made in her article that is often overlooked is that the USG under a 1996 law expanded deportations of felons. What was most often overlooked was that at the time, there was no coordination with the HN for receipt of these gang members. They were simply dumped back home where they quickly created an organizational revolution in criminal activity. By the time the USG began to coordinate the deportations with the HN it was too late and we all had a new problem on our hands. The maras were well established in Central America and Mexico and were being re-exported to the US. A classic case of unintended consequences!:rolleyes:

Cheers

JohnT

Ken White
06-19-2009, 09:00 PM
arrogance... :(

John T. Fishel
06-19-2009, 09:07 PM
stupidity, all rolled into one! How efficient of [us]." Amb Londo Mollari, Babylon 5.

slapout9
06-19-2009, 11:33 PM
Music for the revolution 1961 The Comancheros by Claude King, John Wayne starred in the Movie a most excellent Gang/COIN Movie by the way.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC2gThsfTqg&feature=related




Trailer from the movie..pay attention to the part about a Secret Society!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMR9Lj33acY&feature=related

bourbon
02-11-2010, 05:44 AM
Ecuador at Risk: Drugs, Thugs, Guerrillas and the Citizens Revolution (http://strategycenter.net/docLib/20100125_EcuadoratRiskIASC.pdf), by Douglas Farah and Glenn R. Simpson. International Assessment and Strategy Center, January 24th, 2010. (PDF, 77 pages)

The changing internal situation in Colombia and the expanding influence of the Mexican drug cartels have, over the past three years, helped turn Ecuador into an important and growing center of operation for transnational organized criminal gangs. This poses a significant threat not only to the Ecuadoran state but all of Latin America and the United States.

Research for this paper was conducted over a four‐month period, including three weeks in Ecuador visiting the border regions and Quito. It is based on interviews with Ecuadoran officials, academics and military personnel, as well as interviews with police and military intelligence officers in Mexico, Colombia and the United States. Farah also interviewed senior deserters of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) who worked in Ecuador for significant periods of time.

Jedburgh
05-18-2010, 04:03 PM
WWICS Mexico Institute, 17 May 10:

Drug Trafficking Organizations in Central America: Transportistas, Mexican Cartels and Maras (http://wilsoncenter.org/topics/pubs/Drug%20Trafficking%20Organizations%20in%20Central% 20America.%20Dudley.pdf)

...This chapter is about drug trafficking organizations (DTO) operating in Central America. It is broken down by theme rather than by country. It provides a brief history of DTO activity in the region; descriptions of who operates the DTOs, both locally and internationally, and their modus operandi; the use of street gangs in DTO activities; DTO penetration in government and security forces; local, regional and international efforts and challenges as they try and combat DTOs. The chapter is centered on the three countries where the problem of DTOs appears to be the most acute: Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras.....

Kevin23
05-24-2010, 09:44 PM
The one wing of Mara's MS-13, as news and other reports publicized above show, are a big issue in terms of crime in my hometown of Washington DC. As I have also seen on the nightly news and in newspapers for myself.

Now one aspect of the Mara's I would like to know more about, is their relationship to the various drug wars south of the border, especially those centering on Mexico. In addition to who they are allied with and who they oppose, what other forces maybe supporting the Mara's etc?

bourbon
05-24-2010, 11:23 PM
Now one aspect of the Mara's I would like to know more about, is their relationship to the various drug wars south of the border, especially those centering on Mexico. In addition to who they are allied with and who they oppose, what other forces maybe supporting the Mara's etc?
There were several reports in 2006 that the Sinaloa Cartel had brought in MS-13 as hired muscle and to serve as low level enforcers, but there hasn’t been much since then. I think MS-13’s role in the Mexican cartel wars is likely to be minor or a supporting role, if at all.

Dayuhan
01-05-2011, 02:29 AM
There’s been a great deal of talk lately about drug cartels and their expansion in Latin America and the US, some even referring to cartel violence as “insurgency”. I’d question that, but there are enough definitions of that much-abused word floating around to include almost anything, so it may be viable for some.

What seems peculiar to me is the ease with which the discourse frames the problem as a Latin American issue that is spilling over and causing security issues for the United States. It might be more honest if we reversed the picture and recognized that decades of failed drug policy in the US are causing major security issues – in some cases possibly existential security issues – for Latin America. US drug policy has not constrained demand at all and has constrained supply only enough to keep the business obscenely profitable. It is that profitability that drives the cartels and their violent behavior. The problem isn't them. The problem is us.

US drug policy has been based from the start on the irrational notion that supply creates demand. Whether we’re looking at a single street deal or a hemispheric market, we treat the consumer as a victim and the provider – the “pusher” – as a criminal. This is of course a load of bollocks. Supply doesn’t create demand, demand creates supply. Providers do not “push” users into the drug trade. Consumers “pull” suppliers in by providing a financial incentive so disproportionate to economic conditions that attempts to legislate against it are doomed to fail. If we ignore demand and constrict supply, we force prices so high that inevitably people will take the risks needed to satisfy demand.

We don’t do this because it makes sense: it doesn’t. We don’t do this because it works: it doesn’t. We do it because in the drug world demand is from light-skinned economically integrated individuals, and supply is from dark-skinned economically marginal individuals. On the wide scale many of the suppliers are not American. We as a society are much more comfortable with the imposition of coercive force on dark-skinned economically marginal individuals, especially when they aren’t American.

The current approach has failed; this is beyond dispute. We need to recognize that the solution is not in Latin America, but in the US. Instead of trying to legislate against the incentive and force others to do the same, we need to remove the incentive. We need to address demand. I only see two options for doing that, and if anyone else hard another idea, I’d love to hear it.

The soft option would be to legalize and regulate. The hard option would be to impose and enforce penalties for use and possession that are analogous to those we now impose for trafficking. A combination is possible: soft option for cannabis, hard for opiates, amphetamine, coca and its derivatives.

Neither of these options are appealing. The politics would be miserable in either case. There would be major challenges and penalties in either case. Even worse, the challenges and penalties would land on us, instead of on our neighbors to the south, where the current approach puts them. On the other hand, since we created the problem, isn’t it up to us to solve it? And aren’t we better equipped to face challenges and deal with penalties? And given that the current policy has categorically failed, isn’t it about time to at least start discussing options?

Have at it…

carl
01-05-2011, 02:46 PM
We don’t do this because it makes sense: it doesn’t. We don’t do this because it works: it doesn’t. We do it because in the drug world demand is from light-skinned economically integrated individuals, and supply is from dark-skinned economically marginal individuals. On the wide scale many of the suppliers are not American. We as a society are much more comfortable with the imposition of coercive force on dark-skinned economically marginal individuals, especially when they aren’t American.

That is a very interesting observation. I wonder if you see the same thing in enforcement within the United States, not so much race based though, but socio-economic class based. You don't often read about a police force taking down the primary retail supplier to Hollywood stars or to the faculty of the University of the Elite.

If we really want to reform, you are right about there being only two options, hard and soft. I would change the form of the hard option as it applies to use and possession. American culture being what it is penalties similar to those for possession would be uncertain because of all the legal wrangling involved with getting a conviction, especially if middle and upper class people were the targets. The courts would be tied into knots.

If the hard option penalties for possession were less severe but more certain it would be better. Let us say an officer catches a fine young fellow from a good family with a marijuana cigarette, at 0200 on a Saturday morn. He would transport the fellow to a special court immediately. Upon conviction the fine young fellow would immediately begin serving a 1 week sentence at the county jail, no exceptions for big business deals or babysitters. That would severely complicate the fine young fellows life providing a deterrent but would not be so severe as to hit the sympathy button of the wider community making it more certain.

That would be the general idea anyway. I don't know the legal in and outs needed to make that kind of thing happen. Maybe it would be impossible, but if it could be done, I think it would work.


Neither of these options are appealing. The politics would be miserable in either case. There would be major challenges and penalties in either case. Even worse, the challenges and penalties would land on us, instead of on our neighbors to the south, where the current approach puts them.

This is why it probably won't happen. The current arrangement works great for us. We get to feel smug about our moral stance, our upper classes get their high, the drug warriors have their adventures subsidized and somebody else gets to pay the real price. Politically we want it both ways and that is what we have now.

The thing that would really force the matter would be if the Mexicans legalized drug importing and exporting and just collected customs duties in and out of their country. That won't happen either but it would be interesting if it did.

Bob's World
01-05-2011, 03:15 PM
Dayuhan. You have picked up and carried my mantra on US illegal drug policies almost to the letter.

I grew up in rural southern Oregon where there's a great deal of marijuana is grown, and at least one small town that sits strategically on I-5 and at the entrance into millions of acres of rugged national forest land stayed solvent as the timber industry waned by laundering drug proceeds through legitimate businesses.

As an ODA commander I did a short stint with the Border Patrol Tactical Unit on our SW border; and later in life as a prosecutor served in the Felony Drug Unit in the Multnomah County (Portland, OR) DA's office.

Supply and Demand; Blame and Responsibility; Ethics and Pragmatism. There are so many conflicting issues that concensus is impossible.

I've never met a drug pusher, but I've met and known a lot of business men who sell illegal drugs. Our laws and our policies for enforcing those laws are heavily weighted toward punishing those who sell over those who use. Users are seen as victims; yet they are the demand that drives this entire market.

"Give unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's" was and is wise advice. The U.S. wants to get into the morality market far too much. To Ceaser I would recommend, "Give unto God that which is God's." Ceaser needs to focus on law and policy. Illegal Drugs is two words. Change that first word to "legal" and one has an entirely new dynamic. That is within Ceaser's lane to do; coupled with new policies to define who can use these legal drugs, and who, by their chosen profession must submit to regular testing and is not eligible as a matter of policy to partake. Make it a personal choice. Use drugs or have an important career, but not both. Fail your piss test, lose your job. Enjoy your drugs.

Mexico suffers due to the illegality of the drug market. Mexico would have no such problems if it were a legal drug market. As for the U.S.; no need to agonize over punishing users, losing one's job is punishment enough. Buyers will prefer the relative safety and quality control of official sellers; and revenues will fund rehab programs for those who fall victim to their own vices.

This is one more area where we need to stop demanding that others change to suit us, and look at some hard changes that we need to place upon ourselves in order to solve our problems.

slapout9
01-05-2011, 04:02 PM
There was a former LA county DA who said we should legalize it,tax it and treat any violation like a DUI. Might be something to looking at it that way.

Dayuhan
01-08-2011, 03:49 AM
Dayuhan. You have picked up and carried my mantra on US illegal drug policies almost to the letter.

We agree on something? Will wonders never cease? I guess great minds work a like... once every few years at least. I've been preaching this gospel myself for quite a while; I wonder if anyone will listen now that the problem is in the eye a bit more. I'm not betting on it.


I wonder if you see the same thing in enforcement within the United States, not so much race based though, but socio-economic class based.

I suspect that it's driven more by socio-economic class bias than race bias, though in the end the result is the same, as our prison population shows rather well.


If the hard option penalties for possession were less severe but more certain it would be better. Let us say an officer catches a fine young fellow from a good family with a marijuana cigarette, at 0200 on a Saturday morn. He would transport the fellow to a special court immediately. Upon conviction the fine young fellow would immediately begin serving a 1 week sentence at the county jail, no exceptions for big business deals or babysitters. That would severely complicate the fine young fellows life providing a deterrent but would not be so severe as to hit the sympathy button of the wider community making it more certain.

Certainty over severity seems an excellent idea to me, though I suspect that the legalities would be complicated, and controversial. I also suspect that punishing people for smoking a joint is pretty much a waste of time and resources... I'd treat marijuana like alcohol and focus effort on the harder drugs.


This is why it probably won't happen. The current arrangement works great for us. We get to feel smug about our moral stance, our upper classes get their high, the drug warriors have their adventures subsidized and somebody else gets to pay the real price. Politically we want it both ways and that is what we have now.

We also get to blame someone, always something we look for. When Mom and Dad discover that Ashley and Tyler are spending their prodigious allowances on smack, crack, and blow it can all be the fault of the sinister pusher and the evil cartel....

Bill Moore
01-08-2011, 04:14 AM
There’s been a great deal of talk lately about drug cartels and their expansion in Latin America and the US, some even referring to cartel violence as “insurgency”. I’d question that, but there are enough definitions of that much-abused word floating around to include almost anything, so it may be viable for some.

What seems peculiar to me is the ease with which the discourse frames the problem as a Latin American issue that is spilling over and causing security issues for the United States. It might be more honest if we reversed the picture and recognized that decades of failed drug policy in the US are causing major security issues – in some cases possibly existential security issues – for Latin America. US drug policy has not constrained demand at all and has constrained supply only enough to keep the business obscenely profitable. It is that profitability that drives the cartels and their violent behavior. The problem isn't them. The problem is us.

I guess it depends on how you would define a security problem, but in my humble view gangs empowered with drug money that have a nation wide network and engage in violent activities against our citizens is a security problem.

In Mexico the drug cartels are an insurgency, maybe not at the national level, but they have replaced the official State government apparatus with their own thugs and in fact rule many towns in Mexico. Wasn't that long ago an article came out about the last police officer in one town being killed by the cartels. Who governs? The cartels do, is that an insurgency? Does it really matter? Is it a security problem? Most definitely.

Drug money can't corrupt? What happened to Guinea in W. Africa and how long did that take? Did the U.S. cause that, or the drug cartels?

AQ in Africa works hand in hand with cartels now to help them move their drugs to Europe to market. AQ gets money for providing safe passage, they use that money to enhance their capability and become a greater threat to the States. Does that qualify as a security problem?

The nexus between certain drug cartels and some terrorist organizations is very real, and it forms when it is mutually beneficial to both parties. I don't think the cartels will knowinly be moving terrorists into the U.S., because it would result in a smack down which isn't good for business, but there are other areas beyond our borders where they do cooperate.

I think some are too quick to claim there is no security problem, because they don't support our failed war on drugs and associated policies.

Dayuhan
01-08-2011, 07:08 AM
I didn't mean to say that there's no security problem; rather that the cause of the security problem is not the drug cartels, or the inability of Latin American governments to control the cartels, but rather our drug policies, which brought the cartels and the security problem into existence. There's certainly a problem, but the source of and solution to the problem are both north of the border... and the Latin American countries, whose security is threatened more than ours, have every reason to be pointing this out. I'm actually surprised that more of them haven't been publicly complaining. How are they supposed to keep their police forces honest when our citizens are paying hundreds of billions of dollars to buy the very same products that our government insists that their people shouldn't sell?

Bill Moore
01-08-2011, 06:13 PM
O.K., I agree that is a critical issue and one the local through national level governments have been trying to address (unsuccessfully). The illicit market for drugs/narcotics in the U.S. is a huge and perhaps the main driver of these dangerous cartels; however, it isn't just "our" market, Europe, parts of East Asia, etc. also are big markets. Not all the drugs produced in Latin America go to the U.S.. I'm not trying to lessen the responsibility of our irresponsible citizens, but if we're ever going to signficantly reduce their funding it will take a global approach.

Somewhat switching gears, but along the same lines, if there is agreement that as long as there is a robust market for illegal drugs, how do we address the market issue? Obviously our overly legalistic approach has failed and led to abuses of individual civil rights. We have so many in jail now we're challenging State budgets to the point that they have to release several prisoners prematurely. I recall doing a study on two particular prisons on the East coast and the guards and senior leadership were very upfront about their opposition to cracking down on the users. The prison was over flowing with decent people who had to do one year in jail for possessing pot. This had two obvious side effects. The effects of living in an over crowded prision with hardened prisoners had undesired psychological effects on your average Joe. More concerning due to the over crowding armed robbers and rappists were paroled early, and subsequently "serious" crimes increased. I think for the most part that self righteous stupidity has come to an end. The other approach was the just SAY NO TO DRUGS campaign, and like any other narrative the U.S. government has devised and implemented it has failed.

Do we treat it as a health problem? Obviously we don't have the money to do that effectively, but maybe the money we're spending on fighting the cartels would be better spent on treating it as a health care issue (this is one argument presented, but I haven't seen any evidence that this really works)?

Coming from me you know I'm serious, the another option is to really wage a war on drugs and remove the legal constraints, much like Thailand did for awhile? If it is a serious threat (still open to debate, but in my opinion some aspects of the drug trade do present a serious threat to security), then lets get serious and get the DEA out of the lead and put DOD in charge. I know it won't resolve the problem long term, but it will reduce it and increase the risk of those involved in the trade.

We all sit back and complain our current approach doesn't work, but generally agree the security risks from this business are significant in their own way. I agree the current method doesn't work, focusing on treating it as a health problem may contribute to the solution, but it isn't the solution, so the solution must lie outside of what we're currently "authorized" to do.

JM2008
01-22-2011, 11:55 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/21/AR2011012106325.html
I really like this idea. I have, for sometime now, been advocating for us to get more involved in training the Mexicans to effectively fight the cartels that are knocking on our door. We cannot just put US troops INTO Mexico to do it and just training leaders to train their soldiers would take years to become effective. This seems like the perfect answer to that dilemma, thoughts?

Dayuhan
01-23-2011, 12:58 AM
I think it's absolutely the wrong answer to this dilemma, and at best a stopgap measure with a potential bit of temporary utility.

The answer to the dilemma is for the US to address and change its failed drug policies, and to address the demand side of the drug equation, which are what brought the cartels into being in the first place.

It's completely backwards to say that Mexico's inability to control the cartels is threatening US security. America's inability to control its drug problem is threatening Mexico's security, and the Mexicans have every right to be pissed off at the Americans over it.

JM2008
01-23-2011, 02:12 AM
Brainwashing the American public to not consume drugs!?

How would you propose to change our drug policy.

Dayuhan
01-23-2011, 03:11 AM
Posted on the subject here, no need to repeat...

http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=12192

IntelTrooper
01-23-2011, 03:16 AM
Government brainwashing won't do it. We have, in this country, a problem that is literally increasing exponentially from generation to generation. Part of the problem is genetic but the majority of the problem is familial relationship patterns which result in increased demand for drugs.

We won't get the drug problem under control because political and religious types won't hear the truth, and even if they do they certainly won't enact measures to reverse the trend.

If you took a survey of the family of origin situations of drug addicts you would find similarities as far as physical and sexual abuse, absence of parents, alcoholism, and environments that don't allow them to develop healthy methods of coping with stress and emotionally taxing situations (these are the same factors, incidentally, which are contributing to our increasing suicide rates in the military, though no military leaders want to acknowledge this either).

Because these factors tend to appear with particular frequency in certain racial and socio-economic groups, we don't hear about them much because we're more afraid of offending someone than getting to an actual solution.

The drug problem is not a law enforcement or military problem -- it is a failure of our society to look out for each other, but we want to punish people more than help them, so we perpetuate the cycle (and, I would say, profoundly exacerbate it).

To get the situation under control I would say we need mandatory birth control and counseling/therapy for a significant portion of the population who have been subjected to these situations. It is literally a disease that is being passed genetically, and because the people who carry it are reproducing themselves at a rate probably higher than the rest of the population it will require invasive measures, or it will simply spin out of control.

JM2008
01-23-2011, 03:29 AM
The problem with your proposal today is that even if the drug demand went to zero there would still be a huge network of organized crime just across the border but now with no income source. What would you say the fallout of that would be. Do you really think that the Zetas and MS13 would just say Oh well I guess it is back to the factory? I think there would be what you would definitely call a criminal insurgency.

IntelTrooper
01-23-2011, 03:55 AM
The problem with your proposal today is that even if the drug demand went to zero there would still be a huge network of organized crime just across the border but now with no income source. What would you say the fallout of that would be. Do you really think that the Zetas and MS13 would just say Oh well I guess it is back to the factory? I think there would be what you would definitely call a criminal insurgency.

We should definitely be dealing with these sorts of organizations supplying drugs with law enforcement and possibly even military means for those across the border. But if the real bad guys are locked up and we have a nation of emotionally healthy individuals, they will have lost the vast majority of their power and influence. Right now, it would be simply playing whack-a-mole, or plugging holes in the dyke.

slapout9
01-23-2011, 02:56 PM
We have, in this country, a problem that is literally increasing exponentially from generation to generation. Part of the problem is genetic but the majority of the problem is familial relationship patterns which result in increased demand for drugs.



I have been saying that for years and I really don't think people understand this aspect of it outside LE. Most long time LE officers have had the experience of arresting the Father and then arresting the son (sometimes grandson:eek:)for the same or similar crime, it is literally passed down from generation to generation........and here is my real current beef as more and more LE,Fire,Public service positions are being eliminated due to the economy we are just creating a greater incentive for people to maintain a crime family as a means of of support/survival. I am done ranting now:)

carl
01-23-2011, 03:20 PM
To get the situation under control I would say we need mandatory birth control and counseling/therapy for a significant portion of the population who have been subjected to these situations.

Mandatory birth control is the very definition of draconian. In fact it is a resort to a great, profound, sky blackening evil. God can predict the course and future of children born into bad situations. Man can't. To do this would be to say man (or some men, who chooses?) can know the future of a union and so can determine if will or will not be.

"Mandatory counseling/therapy for a significant portion of the population" is only slightly less objectionable. The phrase implies forcing people who haven't committed a crime, (correct me if I'm wrong, that is how I am interpreting it) into a status as medically deviant or deficient, then coercing them into a different mode of behavior. The possibilities for political abuse of this arrangement are beyond imagination.

There is a precedent in American history for dealing with this sort of problem. In the 1820s Americans drank about 4 gallons of 200 proof alcohol per capita per year. About 20 years later, it was half of that. The reduction was done by moral suasion, not government intervention.

Ken White
01-23-2011, 04:47 PM
... we are just creating a greater incentive for people to maintain a crime family as a means of of support/survival. I am done ranting now:)You're right on the money (pun intended...).

There are families in my home area of Kentucky that have been breaking every law that's written for over 200 years, it's a family tradition and they're proud of it. I've seen the same thing elsewhere and the trendline is upward. Even here in sunny Florida, such families exist. :rolleyes:

bourbon
01-23-2011, 10:15 PM
Let’s be clear: this will do little to stop the flow of drugs into the United States. It might reduce the violence derived from the narco-trade in Mexico, which is a noble enough goal. There is no good scenario here. The least bad scenario is that it allows for one cartel to consolidate its position and stop the blood flow.


The problem with your proposal today is that even if the drug demand went to zero there would still be a huge network of organized crime just across the border but now with no income source. What would you say the fallout of that would be. Do you really think that the Zetas and MS13 would just say Oh well I guess it is back to the factory? I think there would be what you would definitely call a criminal insurgency.
True, there would still be a network of organized crime. But they would be making only a fraction of the profits they once were.

That means less money to bribe and corrupt governments. Less money for small arms & infantry support weapons, and advanced communications equipment. No more jet aircraft, offshore hedge funds, or high price law firms.

It makes it a lot easier to fight organized crime.

91bravojoe
01-24-2011, 09:04 AM
How about NOT repeating it the second time as tragedy+farce?

Prohibition fails catastrophically, so we do it again? America sometimes is one big republican caucus.

There is mountains of data demonstrating that alcohol is a more dangerous substance than the ones which are generating the machine gun fire in Mexico. Treating all these substances the same - largely legal and taxed - would make Mexico safer and the United States saner.

Therapy to anybody who can't recognize this astonishingly obvious truth.

Bob's World
01-24-2011, 12:07 PM
We definitely have to take a major step that goes after US Demand for illegal drugs in some smart new way. Moral or law enforcement band aids are nice, expensive, and inadequate.

In working the STOP program in Portland I spent a lot of time with drug users. Most aren't really "addicts" (but that title sure makes just one more convenient excuse to rationalize their destructive behavior) , they just like it and see no reason to stop (just yet). Few ride these problems all the way into the ground, but most all rationalize away all of the incremental negative impacts on their health, their finances, their work, their relationships with friends and family, etc. They sure as hell don't worry about how their small purchases impact the stability of Mexico.

My approach is mix or a two "Unacceptable" approaches. One is too liberal, and the other is too conservative. Neither works on its own, but I think together they would take tremendous pressure off of Mexico's government as well as our own tax payers and law enforcement/corrections communities

Too Liberal: Legalize all drugs. Remove the illegal market. Even pure poison like Meth. Put a warning label from hell that truly describes how that #### will kill you in a matter of months, with a mandatory counseling with current and former users before you get your prescription to buy the legal, taxed, safe as possible product.

Too Conservative: Create a list of jobs and professions that are deemed as too important to the public welfare to be held by drug users and require no drug use with mandatory testing as a condition of employment. Cab drivers to Doctors and a whole lot in between. Perhaps a three strikes for some drugs, one strike for others; but in the end one is simply fired and banned from holding any of the listed jobs until going through a year-long program of rehab, treatment, drug tests, counseling, etc. Upon successful completion one could get their ticket back to the banned list; but perhaps some professional licensees would take more or would not be eligible for redemption (surgeon, airline pilot, etc).

Some principles/concepts at work in my thinking on this is:
1. Never create a rule one is either unable or unwilling to enforce.
2. To effectively impact any supply and demand situation one has to focus on demand.
3. Coupling any high demand situation with illegality will breed organized crime and violence.
4. U.S. politicians lack the moral courage (as a whole) to take on the tough issues they know they must tackle if it will affect them personally, or their party. A bill equally offensive and acceptable to both parties allows them to share the blame and credit equally across the aisle.
5. Never create a punishment system that punishes the taxpayer as much as it does your target audience.
6. Separation of church and state. We argue morality as the reason for not addressing a problem that creates so many greater moral problems in its current uncontrolled, illegal status. Don't be a hypocrite and hide behind the church to avoid making smart, hard decisions.
7. Put the cost and consequences upon the party that benefits most. You want to use drugs? That's your call, but you won't have a very good job, and the tax revenues from your purchases will fund the programs that will help you and regulate your usage as well.

As to any immediate relief to Mexico? Just announcing that we are going to finally take our role in their problem serious would provide a major morale boost to the good guys (and also put the bad guys on notice that things are getting ready to change). Otherwise, I would approach it much as we do our operations in the Philippines (except with better funding than we've ever given that neglected theater) in terms of ISR and intel support, training, etc. Sending thousands of Americans to Mexico to hunt for senior leadership of drug cartels formed to fill American demand would be an entirely foreseeable disaster. Beside, even more than in insurgency and terrorist operations, new leadership will always emerge to take those top of the heap big money jobs.

slapout9
01-24-2011, 02:38 PM
Smugglers Blues by Glenn Frey...... read the comment by a former South American Police Detective.


Therse's trouble on the streets tonight,
I can feel it in my bones.
I had a premonition,
That he should not go alone.
I knew the gun was loaded,
But I didn't think he'd kill.
Everything exploded,
And the blood began to spill.
So baby, here's your ticket,
Put the suitcase in your hand.
Here's a little money now,
Do it just the way we planned.
You be cool for twenty hours
And I'll pay you twenty grand.
I'm sorry it went down like this,
And someone had to lose,
It's the nature of the business,
It's the smuggler's blues.
Smuggler's Blues

The sailors and pilots,
The soldiers and the law,
The pay offs and the rip offs,
And the things nobody saw.
No matter if it's heroin, cocaine, or hash,
You've got to carry weapons
Cause you always carry cash.
There's lots of shady characters,
Lots of dirty deals.
Ev'ry name's an alias
In case somebody squeals.
It's the lure of easy money,
It's gotta very strong appeal.

Perhaps you'd understand it better
Standin' in my shoes,
It's the ultimate enticement,
It's the smuggler's blues,
Smuggler's blues.

See it in the headlines,
You hear it ev'ry day.
They say they're gonna stop it,
But it doesn't go away.
They move it through Miami, sell it in L.A.,
They hide it up in Telluride,
I mean it's here to stay.
It's propping up the governments in Colombia and Peru,
You ask any D.E.A. man,
He'll say There's nothin' we can do,
From the office of the President,
Right down to me and you, me and you.

It's a losing proposition,
But one you can't refuse.
It's the politics of contraband,
It's the smuggler's blues,
Smuggler's blues.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
State of Affairs | Reviewer: Gino Suarez | 11/22/10

I can totally relate to this song from every angle and words. A former south american police detective. When this song first came out in the mid-80s I enjoyed its tune and lyrics as well as the Miami Vice show - mainly because of the irony of it all. It's all True. Reality is stranger than fiction. It's a classic ! unfortunately things have not changed since that time...!

IntelTrooper
01-24-2011, 07:16 PM
"Mandatory counseling/therapy for a significant portion of the population" is only slightly less objectionable. The phrase implies forcing people who haven't committed a crime, (correct me if I'm wrong, that is how I am interpreting it) into a status as medically deviant or deficient, then coercing them into a different mode of behavior. The possibilities for political abuse of this arrangement are beyond imagination.

I specifically have in mind young females having children at 15/16/17, etc., who refuse to give up children for adoption. We let people who we wouldn't allow into any other position of resposibility to make choices for other human beings that they have no business making.

Bringing a child into that environment constitutes a crime, in my opinion.



There is a precedent in American history for dealing with this sort of problem. In the 1820s Americans drank about 4 gallons of 200 proof alcohol per capita per year. About 20 years later, it was half of that. The reduction was done by moral suasion, not government intervention.

I think there are some issues with using that statistic. You're implying that if we just make something unpopular that the demand will decrease. You have major hurdles to overcome first -- first, decreasing its popularity enough in media and in public opinion to turn the tide towards popular hostility; second, reducing the compulsion of addicted individuals to gravitate towards these methods of coping with their lives.

I don't see a way of slowing the momentum this process has in our society without profound changes in how we regulate reproduction.

Ken White
01-24-2011, 07:35 PM
Buncha wimps... :D

That's what gave many those families a start and in places along way from Kentucky -- the distilling or selling of illegal booze. Now it's just the fact that 'better living through chemistry' entails products other than alcohol. :wry:

carl
01-24-2011, 09:16 PM
Ken:

The statistic was 4 gallons of pure alcohol consumed per every man, woman, child and infant in the country. That is a lot of booze.

carl
01-24-2011, 09:33 PM
I specifically have in mind young females having children at 15/16/17, etc., who refuse to give up children for adoption. We let people who we wouldn't allow into any other position of resposibility to make choices for other human beings that they have no business making.

Young girls of that age are minor children, in the custody of their parents. There would probably be some legal difficulties there.


I think there are some issues with using that statistic. You're implying that if we just make something unpopular that the demand will decrease. You have major hurdles to overcome first -- first, decreasing its popularity enough in media and in public opinion to turn the tide towards popular hostility; second, reducing the compulsion of addicted individuals to gravitate towards these methods of coping with their lives.

It was done in the past by the Americans, and it was done without government intervention. The difficulties you mentioned were overcome and group behavior was radically changed in just 2 decades. If they could do it, we can do it.

We just have to make up our minds to do it. I would suggest a first step would be to stop looking at users with so much sympathy. People like sympathy. If users were widely viewed as weak, stupid and shamed for being unable to fulfill their responsibilities toward man and God, that would help.


I don't see a way of slowing the momentum this process has in our society without profound changes in how we regulate reproduction.

IntelTrooper, I wish not to offend you but what you propose is monstrous. To implement you suggestion would require a cultural change so profound that it would be far more destructive to our way of life than the thing you are trying to control.

Ken White
01-24-2011, 09:49 PM
The statistic was 4 gallons of pure alcohol consumed per every man, woman child and infant in the country. That is a lot of booze.Seriously, yes it is. However, given unhealthy water, people tended to drink more alcohol. Add in how rough life was then and while it is indeed a lot of booze, it's at least somewhat understandable. Consumption fifty years ago was considerably greater than it is today. Everything goes in cycles...

That includes alcohol. And drugs. And Families...:wry:

IntelTrooper
01-24-2011, 10:04 PM
Young girls of that age are minor children, in the custody of their parents. There would probably be some legal difficulties there.

Let's say at the age of 16 I shoot someone, does my minor status prevent the government from jailing and punishing me?



It was done in the past by the Americans, and it was done without government intervention. The difficulties you mentioned were overcome and group behavior was radically changed in just 2 decades. If they could do it, we can do it.

Ability to do something and likeliness to do it are two entirely different things.



We just have to make up our minds to do it. I would suggest a first step would be to stop looking at users with so much sympathy. People like sympathy. If users were widely viewed as weak, stupid and shamed for being unable to fulfill their responsibilities toward man and God, that would help.

Users are almost always compensating for profound emotional dysfunction caused by early childhood trauma. If we had more stable family units, this might be a reasonable approach, but we don't. Now we have to treat victimization.



IntelTrooper, I wish not to offend you but what you propose is monstrous. To implement you suggestion would require a cultural change so profound that it would be far more destructive to our way of life than the thing you are trying to control.
I'm not offended.

But mark my words, this situation will not improve unless we enact some kind of policy like this.

AdamG
01-30-2011, 06:39 PM
How about NOT repeating it the second time as tragedy+farce?

Prohibition fails catastrophically, so we do it again? America sometimes is one big republican caucus.

There is mountains of data demonstrating that alcohol is a more dangerous substance than the ones which are generating the machine gun fire in Mexico. Treating all these substances the same - largely legal and taxed - would make Mexico safer and the United States saner.

Therapy to anybody who can't recognize this astonishingly obvious truth.

Or Democratic caucus.
To wit
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/09/AR2009030900832.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/business/06smoke.html

If we legalize pot (one of the cartels biggest cash crops), how does a certain party north of the border reconcile that with their crusade against tobacco????

Seriously.

carl
02-10-2011, 03:59 PM
Here is a link to a Houston Chronicle story (courtesy of Information Dissemination) about a narco submarine found in Ecuador. This is a true submarine that can dive to 50 feet and make 20 knots underwater. The story includes a photo. This thing is really cool with a teardrop shaped hull and twin shrouded screws. If there were a Homebuilt Subs magazine, this thing would be the boat of the year.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/7415756.html


(I hope this is the right place to put this.)

SWJ Blog
03-18-2011, 10:41 PM
The Story of an American Military Advisor and Colombian Drug War (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2011/03/the-story-of-an-american-milit/)

Entry Excerpt:

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/journal/docs-temp/eastoftheorteguaza1.jpgBook Announcement: East of the Orteguaza: The Story of an American Military Advisor and Colombian Drug War (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1453691642?ie=UTF8&tag=smallwarsjour-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=1453691642) by Victor M. Roselló, Colonel, USA, Ret. Also available as a Kindle edition (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004E3XH9A?ie=UTF8&tag=smallwarsjour-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B004E3XH9A) and discussed on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/EASTOFTHEORTEGUAZA?sk=wall).

As stated in the subtitle, East of the Orteguaza is the story of an American military advisor and the Colombian drug war. The book’s title is a geographic reference to an actual place in time…a military base that was at the center of the drug war, deep inside the jungles of southern Colombia…and a place where the author lived and worked.

Tres Esquinas is the name of this military base. In Spanish it means three corners, or the junction where two rivers, the Orteguaza and the Caquetá flow together to create one main river. The Río Orteguaza is a tributary of the Río Caquetá and it runs parallel and west of the base...hence, the title, East of the Orteguaza. Orteguaza is believed to be one of many names derived from the native indigenous groups of this Amazonian region, such as the Tukano, Koreguaje, or Huitoto. Historical research reveals that in 1635, Franciscan missionaries may have been the first to Hispanicize the name Orteguaza from the name of the Oyoguaja tribe of the Tukano Family. Still another conjecture is that Orteguaza originated from the native indigenous word Ocoguaje, which literally means “people of the water.”

This is a story steeped in fact and inspired by true events as experienced by the author while assigned to a counterdrug base near the Ecuadoran/Peruvian border in the drug infested Putumayo and Caquetá region of southern Colombia.

More importantly, this is the story of a quiet war; a war so quiet that it rarely catches the attention of the news media….despite the presence of hundreds of US military advisors in Colombia. It focuses on the many varied facets of the US military advisory mission in the jungles, valleys, plains, and mountainous regions of Colombia in support of the Colombian Armed Forces…and their quiet war.

About the Author: Victor M. Roselló is a retired US Army Colonel, intelligence officer, and Latin America Foreign Area Officer. During his 30 year career he served as a military advisor to the Salvadoran and Colombian Armed Forces and combat parachuted into Panama with the 82nd Airborne Division during the 1989 invasion. An Army Ranger and Master Parachutist, he graduated from the US Army Command and General Staff College, School of Advanced Military Studies, and the US Army War College. He has a Master of Arts degree in Latin American and Caribbean Area Studies from the University of Chicago.

Purchase East of the Orteguaza: The Story of an American Military Advisor and Colombian Drug War (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1453691642?ie=UTF8&tag=smallwarsjour-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=1453691642) at Amazon.



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davidbfpo
08-29-2011, 12:32 PM
hat tip to KoW for this pointer, if a little surprising! David Ucko writes:
Over the last month or so, al-Jazeera have featured a series of reports and on the role of the drugs trade in the Americas. For those interested in the relation between drugs, crime and political instability, the on-the-ground reporting and close access to growers, smugglers and ordinary residents affected by the drugs trade all make for interesting and disconcerting viewing. The series as a whole is called Drugs Central and you can find all of the relevant material and videos here. I would in particular recommend scrolling to the bottom of the page, where they have for some reason hidden all of the truly good stuff: 30-minute episodes of Al Jazeera’s Fault Lines programme, providing in-depth investigations of particular problems relating to the drugs trade.

Nearing the end:
All of the videos in this series are interesting and well worth watching, but the longer programmes are probably the most valuable parts of the series. The interviews are also interesting: witness the brutally honest and pragmatic suggestion by Jorge Castaneda, the former foreign minister of Mexico, that all drugs be legalised so as to undercut the power of the gangs that profit from their control over the market.

Link to KoW:http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2011/08/drugs-central-al-jazeera-on-the-war-on-drugs/

There are numerous threads on the drugs issue and their regional, international impact. Maybe time for some merging?

Bill Moore
01-03-2012, 01:27 AM
http://www.latintelligence.com/2011/12/30/2011-trends-in-latin-america-shifting-violence/


Latin America has the ignominious distinction of being one of most violent regions in world. Though not known for its wars or even (at least violent) border disputes, homicide rates average nearly 20 per 100,000 people. Central and South America are among the most murderous regions worldwide, behind only Southern Africa. Six of the ten most violent nations in the world are in Latin America, with Honduras and El Salvador claiming the number one and two spots. The biggest headline-grabber this last year has been Mexico, which counted some 12,000 deaths in 2011 and over 40,000 drug related homicides since the start of President Calderns term (non-official estimates put these numbers even higher). Though Mexico is not the most violent in per capita terms, this escalation has deeply impacted the country.

Highlights are mine.

ganulv
01-03-2012, 06:30 AM
Six of the ten most violent nations in the world are in Latin America, with Honduras and El Salvador claiming the number one and two spots.Highlights are mine.I remember first learning about Salvadoran involvement in human trafficking from Central America to the States while at the Guatemalan/Chiapan border (http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=14.67647,-92.14736&z=16&t=H) in 1995. Last winter I ate at a place in Woodbridge which might just have been a Mara Salvatrucha (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4539688) laundry. It’s a growth industry, I guess.

SWJ Blog
03-02-2012, 09:41 AM
OAS: Drug Cartels Threaten Latin American Democracy (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/oas-drug-cartels-threaten-latin-american-democracy)

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SWJ Blog
03-06-2012, 02:41 AM
From Drug Wars to Criminal Insurgency (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/from-drug-wars-to-criminal-insurgency)

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tequila
03-26-2012, 08:32 PM
Homicides in El Salvador Drop, and Questions Arise (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/world/americas/homicides-in-el-salvador-drop-and-questions-arise.html?src=rechp&pagewanted=print)



MEXICO CITY — Suddenly, killings have plummeted in El Salvador (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/elsalvador/index.html?inline=nyt-geo), one of the most violent countries in Central America and a source of growing worry over gangs and organized crime.

But the possibility that the reduction in violence resulted from a secret deal between the government and gang leaders to halt killings in exchange for better prison conditions has rattled El Salvador’s political establishment and led to various explanations from government leaders.

In countries racked by violence, including Mexico, the notion of negotiating with criminals to curtail violence fills blogs and cocktail chatter but is usually dismissed by government officials.

But a Salvadoran government official and an intelligence agent with knowledge of the discussions, both of whom object to such pacts, said in telephone interviews that a deal was widely discussed by security and intelligence officials in the weeks before gang leaders were moved to less-restrictive prisons.

The officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal from their bosses or the gangs, said a high-ranking colonel — part of a new team of former military officers promising to take on crime — put the idea in motion shortly after arriving at the Public Security and Justice Ministry in November, with the goal of reducing homicides by 30 percent and reaping political gains.

An intelligence report prepared in February and provided by the government official asserts that top members of the ministry “offered, if it is necessary, to make deals or negotiate with subjects who have power inside organized crime structures to reduce homicides.”

There is no dispute that, in an unprecedented move, 30 of the top leaders of the Mara Salvatrucha and Barrio 18 criminal gangs were transferred on March 8 and 9 from a maximum-security prison, where many had been for over a decade, to prisons with perks including family visits.

In the ensuing days, killings in El Salvador dropped to five a day, and sometimes even fewer, from the typical 14. All told, homicides nationwide dropped to 186 in the first 21 days of March from 411 in January and 402 in February ...

Bill Moore
03-27-2012, 03:18 AM
Interesting observation after the quick Google searches (so admittedly the data is not precise, but still should be in the ball park).

El Salvador's population is a little over 6 million, while NYC's population is a little over 8 million.

Murders in El Salvador average around 4,000/per year, while murders in NYC average around 500/per year. NYC's population is 25% greater than El Salvador's. The murder rate in El Salvador is 7 to 8 times greater than NYC. In and of its self I guess it doesn't mean much, but it does put in context. if NYC had the same rate, we would lose as many people in NYC to violence in one year as we lost in Iraq during all of OIF.

Easy to see how a how a government in a relatively poor nation was overcome with this level of violence and decided to negotiate. Is negotiating capitulation or a reasonable response in this case?

ganulv
03-27-2012, 03:15 PM
El Salvador's population is a little over 6 million, while NYC's population is a little over 8 million.

Murders in El Salvador average around 4,000/per year, while murders in NYC average around 500/per year. NYC's population is 25% greater than El Salvador's.

The population of Puerto Rico is around 4 million and there were in the neighborhood of 1,000 murders there last year. I lived on the island for a year in the late ’90s when the rate was similar and it was pretty unnerving. I was forewarned about the crime rate beforehand but thought I knew what I was in for given that I had spent all of my youth on an Indian reservation and had just before that point spent a year in Guatemala as their civil war wound down. Neither of those experiences was comparable. Don’t know if it is still the case but when I was in PR you weren’t required to stop at traffic signals after 2200 due to the very real possibility of being carjacked and no one I knew stopped to get gas after dark unless they were running on vapors. So I don’t really want to imagine what life is like in the Central American countries right now.*

*For all the press the drug related violence in Mexico gets the reported murder rate there doesn’t approach that of El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala and is lower than Puerto Rico’s. My understanding is that it is highly localized, however.

tequila
03-27-2012, 03:38 PM
This is a New Yorker story from 2010 about the Rodrigo Rosenberg suicide (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/04/04/110404fa_fact_grann?currentPage=all)in Guatemala that is a remarkably well-written portrayal of just how out of control Guatemala has gotten.




In 2007, a joint study by the United Nations and the World Bank ranked it as the third most murderous country. Between 2000 and 2009, the number of killings rose steadily, ultimately reaching sixty-four hundred. The murder rate was nearly four times higher than Mexico’s. In 2009, fewer civilians were reported killed in the war zone of Iraq than were shot, stabbed, or beaten to death in Guatemala.

...

Criminal networks have infiltrated virtually every government and law-enforcement agency, and more than half the country is no longer believed to be under the control of any government at all. Citizens, deprived of justice, often form lynch mobs, or they resolve disputes, even trivial ones, by hiring assassins.

Some authorities have revived the darkest counter-insurgency tactics, rounding up undesirables and executing them. Incredibly, the death rate in Guatemala is now higher than it was for much of the civil war. And there is almost absolute impunity: ninety-seven per cent of homicides remain unsolved, the killers free to kill again ...


Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/04/04/110404fa_fact_grann#ixzz1qKeF8qSt

SWJ Blog
04-11-2012, 09:12 AM
Latin American Countries Pursue Alternatives to US Drug War (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/latin-american-countries-pursue-alternatives-to-us-drug-war)

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AdamG
05-01-2012, 03:50 PM
El Salvador holds its breath after day without murders


Scepticism in barrios, where residents say people are still disappearing despite truce between powerful gangs


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/01/el-salvador-murders-gang-truce

SWJ Blog
05-06-2012, 09:52 AM
Lessons of Iraq Help U.S. Fight a Drug War in Honduras (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/lessons-of-iraq-help-us-fight-a-drug-war-in-honduras)

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davidbfpo
06-01-2012, 10:09 AM
An article from 'Open Security' which covers more than El Salvador, notably Mexico and looks at the low profile, tentative success of the state talking to gangs - with the key features being better conditions for those in jail (as in Spain, Italy and the UK IIRC) and a wise retired soldier.

It opens with:
Talk of a pact with criminals is beyond the pale in Mexico’s presidential election campaign. But the tentative success of a deal with gang leaders in one of Central America’s most violent countries suggests the time may have come to explore a new style of negotiations aimed at reducing appalling levels of violence.

A month later, for the first time in years, the country recorded a day without a violent death; the official hope is now that the murder rate will fall in 2012 by 50 percent. The gangs have even agreed to halt forced recruitment of young people.

Citing Interior Minister David Munguía Payés, a retired general:
My hope is that they [the gangs] don’t commit serious crimes, like they are committing at the moment, because in reality the gangs aren’t going to disappear in the next 15 or 20 years. You will die, I will die, and still there will be gangs here in El Salvador. At best they just won’t be as violent as they are now.

Link:http://www.opendemocracy.net/ivan-briscoe/deals-with-devil

Brave men, maybe women too, on both sides to do this. Less violence is essential for public safety and civic life.

davidbfpo
08-04-2012, 09:52 PM
There are several threads on this problem, so I have created this thread - as the IISS Strategic Comment covers several countries. It opens with:
Central America is the world’s latest drugs hot-spot: up to 90% of the South American cocaine bound for the US now transits the region, most of it passing through the so-called 'northern triangle' of Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador.

(Ends with)The countries of the northern triangle face a complicated crisis, requiring them to act on multiple fronts, improving the justice system and governance as well as security forces. Ultimately, they cannot effectively confront one of the most severe security crises in the world with one of the lowest rates of state revenue. The recent tax reforms in Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador are likely to have more impact on fiscal deficits than on security. Insufficient external help and deep institutional fragilities mean that more ambitious tax reforms offer these countries the best chance to improve security.

Link:http://www.iiss.org/publications/strategic-comments/past-issues/volume-18-2012/august/central-america-confronting-the-drug-gangs/

Curiously the new Mexican President has mooted legalisation, see Post 342:http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=5370&page=18

AdamG
10-04-2012, 03:45 PM
The Duffleblog weighs in
http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/06/islamic-customs-anti-ied-tactics-as-military-applies-lessons-of-terror-war-to-war-on-drugs/


This new offensive, emerging just as the United States military winds down its conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan and is moving to confront emerging threats, also showcases the nation’s new way of war: small-footprint missions with limited numbers of troops, partnerships with foreign military and police forces that take the lead in security operations, and narrowly defined goals, whether aimed at insurgents, terrorists or criminal groups that threaten American interests.

The effort draws on hard lessons learned from a decade of counterinsurgency in Afghanistan and Iraq, where troops were moved from giant bases to outposts scattered across remote, hostile areas so they could face off against insurgents.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/world/americas/us-turns-its-focus-on-drug-smuggling-in-honduras.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


And just for reference sake, from 2010

http://www.talkingdrugs.org/us-special-forces-are-working-in-mexico

SWJ Blog
02-04-2013, 05:40 AM
US Military Expands its Drug War in Latin America (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/us-military-expands-its-drug-war-in-latin-america)

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SWJ Blog
12-10-2013, 05:11 PM
President Peña Nieto and Mexico’s Ongoing War on Drugs (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/president-pe%C3%B1a-nieto-and-mexico%E2%80%99s-ongoing-war-on-drugs)

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SWJ Blog
01-06-2014, 11:43 AM
Drug Traffickers Threaten Central America's Democratic Gains (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/drug-traffickers-threaten-central-americas-democratic-gains)

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SWJ Blog
02-03-2014, 06:13 PM
Mexican Cartel Smuggling Cocaine into Hong Kong Amid Booming Demand for Drugs (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/mexican-cartel-smuggling-cocaine-into-hong-kong-amid-booming-demand-for-drugs)

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SWJ Blog
03-14-2014, 06:00 AM
Head of Southern Command Says He Lacks Resources to Fight Drug Trafficking (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/head-of-southern-command-says-he-lacks-resources-to-fight-drug-trafficking)

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SWJ Blog
12-02-2015, 01:55 PM
Gangs & Drug Trafficking in Central America Conference (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/gangs-drug-trafficking-in-central-america-conference)

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davidbfpo
12-16-2015, 03:37 PM
Nothing on gangs in the region since 2012?Slightly taken aback here, so hat tip to WoTR for a long article (for them):http://warontherocks.com/2015/12/the-gang-challenge-in-el-salvador-worse-than-you-can-imagine/?

davidbfpo
12-31-2015, 05:57 PM
More of a backgrounder and the need for a plan to escape. It ends with:
The future of El Salvador depends not on new studies, strategies and funds. It depends on the ability to lay the foundations for a national accord that secures long-term commitments across the political spectrum for a plan that addresses the structural causes of violence, repairs the broken state apparatus and creates real opportunities for the country’s youth. Now, more than ever, Salvadoran society needs to shed its legacy as Latin America’s most socially and politically divided and begin to lay these foundations.
Link:https://www.opendemocracy.net/democraciaabierta/sebastian-weinmann-hayek/crime-violence-and-political-gridlock-in-el-salvador-busi

SWJ Blog
01-15-2016, 02:44 PM
Review of Gangster Warlords: Drug Dollars, Killing Fields, and The New Politics of Latin America (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/review-of-gangster-warlords-drug-dollars-killing-fields-and-the-new-politics-of-latin-ameri)

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davidbfpo
04-22-2016, 07:49 PM
If headlines solved difficult problems then the Mexican President's UN speech is a good example. The BBC report assembles other opinions too. Here is a fact:
Mexico has had more people disappear than Argentina and Chile together during their whole military regimes...We've had more Mexicans die in the drugs war than the US has had in Afghanistan and Iraq together. It's unreal. There's no way you can justify that kind of human cost.
Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-36109104

Open Democracy chimes into the debate:http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=9c663f765f28cdb71116aa9ac&id=fc51f9e3dc&e=c883a819dc

A change in direction as the US Presidential Election looms is hardly encouraging or those who advocate change.

AdamG
12-29-2016, 09:57 PM
Latin America is a hotbed of Islamic terrorism where groups like ISIS and Hezbollah operate freely and raise large sums of money to finance terrorist activities in other countries, mainly the United States, according to a new report released by Spain’s Defense Ministry. “Latin America represents an important region for Islamic radicalism because conditions enable the free, almost undetectable, movement of their members throughout the region,” the defense document states.
Governments in the region consider Islamic terrorism to be a foreign problem, the report says, and intelligence agencies are ill equipped to handle the threat they represent. “The ignorance involving the threat of jihadist terrorism in Latin America has been such that some governments have refused to cooperate with U.S. authorities and other intelligence services,” the disturbing assessment reveals. The report was released this month by the division of Spain’s Defense agency known as Instituto Español de Estudios Estratégicos (IEEE), Spanish Institute of Strategic Studies. The document, authored by a counterterrorism expert, is titled “El radicalismo islámico en América Latina. De Hezbolá al Daesh (Estado Islámico),” Islamic Radicalism in Latin America, from Hezbollah to ISIS.
The Lebanese group Hezbollah is identified as having the largest fundraising operations in the region, though others, such as ISIS, are also prominent. The terrorist organizations have teamed up with established drug trafficking conglomerates to raise and launder large quantities of cash. The report identifies a group called El clan Barakat in Paraguay and Joumaa in Colombia as two examples of drug trafficking enterprises that have long worked with Islamic jihadists to launder money. Spain’s military experts refer to the relationships as a “marriage of convenience” between Latin American organized crime and Muslim terrorists with different objectives and interests. “Each takes advantage of the benefits that the relationship provides,” the report states.http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2016/12/spanish-military-report-islamic-terrorists-operate-raise-cash-latin-america-attack-u-s/

davidbfpo
12-29-2016, 10:23 PM
AdamG,

There have been similar allegations before, IIRC not from official sources and SWJ articles. There is an area on the tri-border area of Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay that often is the focal point. See:http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=1073

Bill Moore
12-30-2016, 02:43 AM
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2016/12/spanish-military-report-islamic-terrorists-operate-raise-cash-latin-america-attack-u-s/

There is in fact concern, and has been for sometime about extremists operating in Latin America and the Caribbean, but judicial watch is a terrible source to cite. They have been proven to be unreliable in the past.