Army Safety Caleb Campbell - NFL Bound?

[Granite_State]

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3361402&categoryId=3060647&n8pe6c=2

"As much as I support our soldiers, if you don't have to be one, I would suggest you not be one." Found that pretty galling. Thoughts on West Point's policy?

[Hacksaw]

I have a somewhat unique perspective on life at service academies... I was once a zoomie, but left before incurring a committment because I had some reservations about the whole cadet system... Later I enroled in Army ROTC was commission RA and later taught at USMA. I recently retired...

I saw pieces of the special on ESPN last night and looked at my wife who had a frown. When asked why, she responded that she didn't care that USMA had a Division I Football Program... He was appraised of his choices, and that he made a choice two years prior. I tend to agree with my wife, she possesses more wisdom than I.

However, I find far more fault with the Academy and the thinking behind the loophole. Some ideas are eternal, the underpinning ethic of service to nation is among the first of many that USMA is supposed to nurture in Cadets. That fact that USMA may get a better recruiting class and benefit from some short term PR gains do not favorably compare.

Hey, he's 21-22 years old being offered a chance to play NFL football, the shame is no so much that he's opting for a chance at fame and fortune. Rather its that USMA forgot one of its core values.

That's all I have to say about that..

Live well and row

[wm]

We could speculate on the pro prospects of guys with names like Blanchard, Davis, Pete Dawkins and Bill Carpenter . I seem to remember a guy named Mike Silliman getting drafted out of USMA by the Knicks, back in the 60s--he did his obligation first as I remember. Also a certain Navy hoop star did at least a hand wave at being a Naval Supply Officer while double dipping in the NBA honey pot. And then of course there is this (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=201):

Roger Thomas Staubach. . .1963 Heisman Trophy winner. . . Four-year Navy service preceded pro play. . .Noted for last-minute heroics, guided Dallas to four NFC titles, Super Bowl VI, XII wins. . .MVP in Super Bowl VI. . .All-NFC five years . . .Career stats: 22,700 yards, 153 TDs passing; 2,264 yards, 20 TDs rushing. . .83.4 NFL passer rating best ever at time of retirement. . .Four-time NFL passing leader. . . Born February 5, 1942, in Cincinnati, Ohio.

[Stan]

It's no mystery that the ARMY produces the best disciplined athletes, bar none. And, we consistently kick the Navy's Alpha every year (even bowling on base :cool: ).

But, are these the kind of folks prepared for armed duty we'd like by our side when the Sierra hits the fan ?

Perhaps the Alternative Professional Option (http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2008/02/25/nothing-you-havent-already-heard/) is a good idea after all.


Army cadet-athletes now have options to pursue professional athletic opportunities thanks to the U.S. Army’s Alternative Service Option program. If cadet-athletes are accepted into the program, they will owe two years of active service in the Army, during which time they will be allowed to play their sport in the player development systems of their respective organizations and assigned to recruiting stations. If they remain in professional sports following those two years, they will be provided the option of “buying out” the remaining three years of their active-duty commitment in exchange for six years of reserve time.


This reminds me of an episode of The Simpsons in which Bart has a vision of the future. In this vision, Lisa has been elected President and needs to raise taxes due to a budget emergency. Fearing the unpopularity of a tax increase, she decides to call it a “refund adjustment.” “Alternative service” is the same kind of euphemism. Let’s be real, here; playing ball full-time for two years while shaking hands at a couple of recruiting events isn’t exactly the first thing that comes to mind when people think “service.”

[Eden]

I'm an old grad myself, and my first reaction was negative. Even as a dyed-in-the-wool Army football fan, it seems a little distasteful that the institution would prostitute itself for the sake of a few more wins on the field, or that the taxpayers would foot the considerable bill for educating the Falcon's next cornerback. Moreover, there are cadets who are world-class fencers, musicians, etc., who don't get the opportunity to pursue their dreams by getting out of their active duty obligations.

But...I don't think the guys in charge at the Academy have lightly made this program available to athletes, or that they did it simply to win football games. I believe they think this will raise public awareness of the Academy, that winning football actually does increase the quality of the incoming classes and encourages many to apply who might not otherwise have done so, and that it will benefit the Army in the long run. If they are right - and it's a big if in my mind - then it will be worth losing the services of two or three lieutenants every year.

In the 19th century it was not uncommon for Academy grads to go directly into civilian life; the purpose of the Academy was different then, and maybe it's time to rethink its ultimate purpose now.

[Hacksaw]

Eden,
I appreciate your thoughtful response and could nod my head through much of the logic...

- Losing 2-3 2LTs per year will not make a big dent in that year groups population.
- Yes this will raise awareness of the academy.
- Back in the day some grads went straight into civilian life, but its role has changed.

Concur on all... but

- Service to nation as a cornerstone ethic has not changed, and this is, if not a nation, an Military at War.
- Not sure that the awareness this type of attention gains is the image the Academy needs. Unlike pop culture icons, not all publicity is good publicity.
- The Academy has changed, despite its most nostalgic yearnings, it is no longer a hard science institution (sorry AOG). USMA provides a liberal arts education to its graduates - and that is dead on what its graduates require to lead in the contemporary environment.

I am not a wax nostalgic about the good ole traditions of Hudson High, but the last core ethic that the Academy should bend away from is its mission to graduate leaders committed to life of service to the Nation. Some things should remain non-negotiable - this is one.

This policy is a BAD:( decision.

There is an aporpo saying that you can't blame a dog for being dog... Well you can't blame a 21 yr old for being a 21 yr old, I think Caleb Campbell will regret this decision. The USMA education does not end on Miche Field on a Spring Day, it continues as they struggle to apply the lessons they learned.

Funny, I usually become less riled about a topic as time passes... This one just makes me more disappointed by the hour.

That's really all I have to say about that.

Live well and row

[Steve Blair]

In the 19th century it was not uncommon for Academy grads to go directly into civilian life; the purpose of the Academy was different then, and maybe it's time to rethink its ultimate purpose now.

True, but this had more to do with the state of the Army at the time than any conscious decision on the part of the Academy. Graduates took brevet rank, and had to wait (often for extended periods) for a vacancy in a regiment to occur. They could be assigned in brevet rank, though. In other cases it was opportunists who took the education and then resigned as soon as it was practical to do so.

West Point in the 19th century often found itself forced to defend its very existence, as there was some popular resentment and suspicion directed at ANY standing military organization, let alone a "mini-Prussia" sitting on the Hudson...

[wm]

There is an aporpo saying that you can't blame a dog for being dog... Well you can't blame a 21 yr old for being a 21 yr old, I think Caleb Campbell will regret this decision. The USMA education does not end on Miche Field on a Spring Day, it continues as they struggle to apply the lessons they learned.


I remember walking by a stone as I walked out of Army home football games on Saturdays (usually after witnessing another drubbing at the hands of some major college power like Cincinnati or Worcester Tech). That stone had a bronze plaque on it with the following quotation from MacArthur:

On the fields of friendly strife are sown the seeds that on other days and other fields will bear the fruits of victory.

With all of the big time sports infrastructure improvements at USMA around what used to be the greensward called Howze Field (not to mention places like Shea Stadium, Doubleday Field and Target Hill Field (aka North Athletic Field), I wonder if that stone is still there. If it is, I wonder whether the Army Athletic Association (AAA) staff makes use of it to remind its young student atheletes that they are officer candidates first and foremost.
Cadets draw a paycheck and get an education for free because the nation expects them to "provide for the common defense" as the Preamble to the Constitution says.

[Hacksaw]

Agree WM

Just can't figure out why USMA would decide to build a way out for grads... If for no other reason, just the wrong message to send to the Corps

[Cavguy]

In today's New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/30/sports/football/30army.html?scp=1&sq=caleb+campbell&st=nyt):

"An Officer and a Linebacker for the N.F.L."


“I’ve heard stories about what’s gone on in Iraq and Afghanistan,” Campbell said. “In another sense, the N.F.L. is just as much pressure. You’re out there to take somebody’s job. In terms of coaches can’t cut me? We’re talking about the N.F.L. here. This is a cutthroat business.”

He obviously didn't pay attention at USMA between football practice. Ok, place him in BOLIC and on the next bird to Iraq or Afghanistan.

NFL as tough as combat? Plueeze. If this is the type of statement he will utter for Army recruiting, ship him to the front.

[Tom Odom]

In today's New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/30/sports/football/30army.html?scp=1&sq=caleb+campbell&st=nyt):

"An Officer and a Linebacker for the N.F.L."



He obviously didn't pay attention at USMA between football practice. Ok, place him in BOLIC and on the next bird to Iraq or Afghanistan.

NFL as tough as combat? Plueeze. If this is the type of statement he will utter for Army recruiting, ship him to the front.

He is just another self-centered ego looking to get paid but with the difference he used a service academy to get set for it.

Withdraw his commission and then send him to Iraq...

Tom

[Steve Blair]

He is just another self-centered ego looking to get paid but with the difference he used a service academy to get set for it.

Withdraw his commission and then send him to Iraq...

Tom

Sounds good to me. That or pack him off for alternative service in a VA hospital or something similar. Maybe then he might get a clue as to the difference between combat and the NFL....:wry:

[selil]

I'm sorry because I know my opinion is going to upset some people. I simply feel that any military service academy and any cadet and any service that thinks the NFL is more important than service to the country deserves nothing less than ridicule for the dishonor they have engaged in. Pandering "recruitment" as an excuse for failure to serve as an officer leading troops is an abysmal lie. If you are more worried about your personal ambition of an NFL career then don't burn a seat for a person who wants to be a preeminent military officer and academy graduate. This is an absolute abomination and desecration of people like Roger Staubach who served their country then played a game. Every ring-knocker should be ashamed. I thought the academies were becoming more about service and commitment to an ideal of patriotism and self sacrifice. Every time I meet an academy graduate I now get to ask them, "Couldn't make it in the NFL huh?" I don't care if some Pentagon rat changed the rule, I expected more from the participants, and have been horribly disappointed.

I guess Semper Fidelis only counts if you're enlisted or ROTC graduate. Oh, wait wrong service.

[RTK]

In today's New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/30/sports/football/30army.html?scp=1&sq=caleb+campbell&st=nyt):

"An Officer and a Linebacker for the N.F.L."



He obviously didn't pay attention at USMA between football practice. Ok, place him in BOLIC and on the next bird to Iraq or Afghanistan.

NFL as tough as combat? Plueeze. If this is the type of statement he will utter for Army recruiting, ship him to the front.

He branched ADA (I looked it up). I would have LOVED to see him come through The Armor School with that attitude.

[MattC86]

If you are more worried about your personal ambition of an NFL career then don't burn a seat for a person who wants to be a preeminent military officer and academy graduate. This is an absolute abomination and desecration of people like Roger Staubach who served their country then played a game.

I agree with this especially. There were plenty of applicants for Caleb Campbell's spot at the USMA. All of them, presumably, would have been capable, faithful officers in the United States Army. Campbell will not, at least certainly not in the sense that his classmates are, and as has been mentioned (I think on the SWJ Blog) any gain in recruiting from the "free advertising" will be more than canceled out by the cheapening of a pillar on which the military services - no, service and honor and selflessness in general - are based.

And yes, my head too almost exploded when the ESPN reporter said, "if you don't have to be one, I would suggest you not be one."

Regards,

Matt

[Ken White]

"Since November, the Navy has suspended its program governing early release after two years of active duty. “The nation is at war,” said Laura Stegherr, a Navy spokeswoman. “The Navy doesn’t intend to change the policy.”"

Good for the Navy. Sad commentary on the Army. Nuke HRC to save the Army. :mad:

[Cavguy]

I just watched the ESPN video on the Blog post. Now I'm just ready to puke. The sheer glibness of it all just got me angrier, when combined with his interview quote above, which has disturbed me more all day. I'd love to tell him about my worst night (http://www.ausa.org/Webpub/DeptArmyMagazine.nsf/byid/TEUE-7BRSKG/$File/CompanyCommand.pdf?OpenElement), and see how that compares to a hard day in the NFL.

I did like the panelist at the end who suggested that there was a message disconnect - how can he be an Army role model if the hardest thing he's done is Buckner? What's the message to the people. He should at least serve two before being let go.

I also applauded the LT whose guilt got the better of him. Granted, leaving minor league ball is not leaving the NFL, but still.

Anyone know if the policy applies to all soldiers, ROTC grads, or OCS grads? Or is it just USMA?

[Rob Thornton]

He branched ADA (I looked it up) stands for A Different Army.

Sad.

Rob

[Claymores]

"if you don't have to be one, I would suggest you not be one."


All,

The reporter who said this statement is named Lisa Salters. I have a line on her email. I will post it up when I get it. I have a few questions to ask her.

S/F

Claymores

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

not to the NFL but to IZ or AF first. He should not be allowed to dodge the bullet of his service commitment to the Army and the American taxpayer who footed the bill for his education. :mad:

My daughter applied five freakin times to WooPoo on the Hudson and was denied each time. Even after she enlisted they denied her request to go to MAPS. She will be headed for Mosul with her MP company in October.

Seems she has more balls than Campbell, but then again that's not a requirement to attend.

[wm]

from the local community newspaper (http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080430/NEWS/804300318)that serves the area around West Point


Campbell and three Army teammates — fullback Mike Viti, punter/kicker Owen Tolson and wide receiver Jeremy Trimble — are the first football players to take advantage of the policy.

"This is a way of serving your country," said Viti, one of four regiment commanders among Army's 4,000 cadets.

"I think a lot of people had the misconception that if you're not getting bullets slung by your head, you're not serving your nation in a time of war."

[Tom Odom]

"I find it, in some ways, motivating to make sure I make the team."

I bet he does...

[selil]

I had it pointed out to me by a couple of acaddemy representatives yesterday that I was in error. Seems my post on SWC got me some attention. The Navy I was told is not nor will they be doing this with accademy graduates, and the Air Force doesn't have that good of football players. Well that is what Navy said. The Air Force representative quoted Fisher DeBerry saying their job is to make Air Force officers not NFL players. Yeah I know DeBerry left in 2006, but I thought the sentiment was in the right place. I have not verified any facts as to either sides case.

[RTK]

He got picked up by the Detroit Lions in the 7th Round.

Meanwhile his peers will be visiting me and other TRADOC establishments this summer getting ready to lead real Soldiers into armed combat with people trying to kill them.

IF he makes it through training camp without getting cut, I hope he can live with himself when his first classmate is mourned at West Point after giving their life for their country. This guy has zero credibility, zero personification of the Army Values, and exemplifies everything that is wrong with officer selection right now.

If I have a young hotshot E5 who is good at baseball and goes up to the Braves open tryouts next year and makes it, is he going to get out of his contract? I doubt it. And that's wrong.

If he gets hurt and has to come to the force, he'd better not be my ADA officer. He'd get cut from my team.

[SWJED]

"This is a way of serving your country," said Viti, one of four regiment commanders among Army's 4,000 cadets.

"I think a lot of people had the misconception that if you're not getting bullets slung by your head, you're not serving your nation in a time of war."

... horse s***.

And of course they are getting 0-1 pay and the difference over that payed by the NFL is going to the Army? Right? Right?

[Ron Humphrey]

There may be some confusion on why this would be a good or bad program plan overall. If there where someone who is a biiig fan of military service and who wanted to join but already had a very large persona from a professional career then great they will be more effective as a recruiting rep, etc.

But allowing those who happen to be good enough to "skip" out on their real obligations after already reaping the benefits of enlistment will continue to result in exactly what we see here. This discussion has pointedly brought out what the perception is and that is the reality when it comes to anyone who will come in contact with that person as a recruiter.

Now if the institutes were to allow those who achieve this sort of thing to "buy" their way out through a combination of service Recuiting videos, and an equivalent of reimbursement for whatever the military would have spent in fair market pricing I think there might not be as large a stigma. Don't know but might be something to consider. At least to me that would seem to follow with looking to what the individuals skillsets are that help most to facilitate successful operations.

Thought's

[RTK]

Ron,

Here's my point. Pat Tillman set aside a very successful NFL career to fight for his country. This cat went to West Point over a year after we entered entered Iraq and almost 3 years after September 11th. He knew what the cost was when he entered service. It's time to pay up and he found a loophole which got Uncle Sam to pay for his four years of college.

Here's a stipulation they should put on this policy: No cadet will be allowed to go pro unless their team has a winning record over the course of their career.

Guess that would count the West Point football crowd out.

[patmc]

Half the grads are getting out at the end of their ADSO. Now cadets are getting out before they even start? What's in the water up there?

Letting someone take the easy way out because they are an athlete is the worst possible message. If you had a cadet that is going to cure cancer, ok, let him or her go do that. Otherwise, you are telling every Army cadet or candidate, regardless of source, that they are a sucker since they're following through with their committment and word. Being a 2LT "recruiter" helps the Army more than being a PL? Yeah right.

We also read that NFL is as much stress as Iraq or Afghanistan quote and did a collective, "not appropriate for print."

[slapout9]

Anybody remember Roger Staubach? The winning QB for the Dallas Cowboys who went to the Naval Academy. He completed his Navy commitment and THEN went PRO. Why should the Army be any different?

[Jedburgh]

In contrast to USMA, here's a similar situation dealt with by the Naval Academy....

WP, 12 Jun 08: Draft Pick Must Serve 5-Year Active Duty (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/12/AR2008061203631_pf.html)

A Navy graduate drafted last week by the Cardinals was denied a bid to play ball yesterday and ordered to report for duty.

Mitch Harris, a newly commissioned ensign, must serve a five-year active duty commitment, Navy Secretary Donald C. Winter ruled.

"He will report to his ship as ordered," said Cmdr. Jeff Davis, a Navy spokesman.....

[Granite_State]

Looks like DoD has reversed the previous policy and 2LT Campbell is back on active duty:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/nfl/07/23/army.ap/index.html

[Tom Odom]

"I think a lot of people had the misconception that if you're not getting bullets slung by your head, you're not serving your nation in a time of war."

Guess he was right--a lot of folks do including the DoD. :D

[jkm_101_fso]

I maybe in the slim majority that is unhappy that 2LT Campbell won't be playing Free Safety for the Detroit Lions this year. I've read most of the posts on this from all of you (although I vehemently disagree with some) and it seems that we must consider this reversal of policy in terms of logic:

Apparently, 2LT Campbell is too valuable as a PL (ADA) to release to the NFL and recruit for Army football. Grounds for the decision:

*He went to West Point knowing of the military obligation and service requirement, in a time of war. He should fulfill his commitment.
*The taxpayers footed the bill for his education; not to play football, but to serve.

I SUBMIT THE FOLLOWING WITH UTTER FACETIOUSNESS:

If this is the logic for the decision, then in fairness, the following programs must be abolished, IOT "get these Soldiers in the fight", because they enlisted or were commissioned into the Army to fight wars, not do “other non-essential activities” at the expense of the taxpayer:

-Golden Knights Parachute Team
-Army Marksmanship Team (who routinely sends shooters to the Olympics)
-Army Athlete Program (also sends Soldiers to the Olympics)

There is also another solution. Do away with competitive sports teams at West Point. Then we don’t have to have this discussion. The Cadets aren’t there to play games; they are there to learn and prepare to lead troops. Or, one could say that if USMA doesn’t want to put (quality) athletes on the field with potentially professional talent, then why put a team on the field at all? Either do it well, or don’t do it at all, right?

Can you see where this could go?

****FACETIOUSNESS CONCLUDED*******

I’m not jealous of Caleb Campbell because he has a talent that I don’t. It doesn’t make me angry that he can play professional football and not have to serve in combat, just like me and so many others. It doesn’t upset me that he could make millions of dollars playing a pro sport and just “do some recruiting for USMA in the off-season”, even though he took the same oath I did. I don’t have any animosity for the guy at all. I happen to believe that West Point’s Division I competitive sports programs are a great thing, and anything they can do to improve them into habitually victorious organizations should be done; to include recruiting ballplayers with professional potential; and letting them serve as a reservist to recruit other superior athletes to USMA in their respective off-seasons. What a phenomenal recruiting tool and morale booster that would be! It’s incredibly unfortunate this is not the case, dooming West Point football to mediocrity until the policy is once again re-instated.

Sometimes the level of martyrdom on this forum is amazing. Not just with this thread, but others as well. Remember this one? http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=5611

[Ken White]

"Can you see where this could go?"Sure can. It can lead one to make this sort of statement:
"Sometimes the level of martyrdom on this forum is amazing."Which may be logical but I suspect misses the emotional and psychological aspects by a great distance.

Logically, no one would ever go to war; it is undoubtedly one of the most stupid if not the most stupid of human endeavors. Logically, no one would ever want to be a soldier, it's entirely too risky -- yet people do want to be and are Soldiers. Why is that?

War transcends logic.

[Tom Odom]

If this is the logic for the decision, then in fairness, the following programs must be abolished, IOT "get these Soldiers in the fight", because they enlisted or were commissioned into the Army to fight wars, not do “other non-essential activities” at the expense of the taxpayer:

-Golden Knights Parachute Team
-Army Marksmanship Team (who routinely sends shooters to the Olympics)
-Army Athlete Program (also sends Soldiers to the Olympics)



That would be about the only thing in your post I agree with. I believe that taking the King's coin means serving in the field. That does not mean recruiting to fill football teams at the Point or slots in the Golden Kinights--many of whom in the 70s I knew and jumped with. Some of the Knights then were recruited and became instant corporals after basic so they could try out. As for the marksmanship unit, it has in the past done good work. But in the current environment, I fail to see the need for a pellet pistol champion.

In the case of the LT in question, I would not criticize him as an officer had he not opened his mouth first. That aside, I would criticize the priorities of the Academy and the Army that said he could side step his obligation.

If that is what you call martyrdom, then I am a martyr and a taxpayer.

Tom

Reference the other post, well that was started by someone essentially using the forum as a lab.

[Jedburgh]

Sometimes the level of martyrdom on this forum is amazing.
Martyrdom? Just my perception, but I viewed the issues brought out in both threads as more along the lines of personal integrity and operational ethics as opposed to entitlement and what's in it for me attitudes.

[jkm_101_fso]

In the case of the LT in question, I would not criticize him as an officer had he not opened his mouth first. That aside, I would criticize the priorities of the Academy and the Army that said he could side step his obligation.

If that is what you call martyrdom, then I am a martyr and a taxpayer.


You and I both know the level of media coverage he's recieved would eventually lead to him saying something "questionable" (he's 21 years old), resulting in criticism from those in the peanut gallery. I'm sure that his intentions were good regarding any quote he made that you found unfavorable or controversial.


I don't consider anyone a martyr in this case, unless your stance is "well, I had to serve in war and in the field, so should he". IMO, that viewpoint is immature and is a result of jealousy and anger, not actual reasoning...not to mention a failure to see the big picture beyond one's self.

[Tom Odom]

You and I both know the level of media coverage he's recieved would eventually lead to him saying something "questionable" (he's 21 years old), resulting in criticism from those in the peanut gallery. I'm sure that his intentions were good regarding any quote he made that you found unfavorable or controversial.

He is 21 years of age and old enough to swear his oath as an officer. As for his intentions, his actions speak much louder.



I don't consider anyone a martyr in this case, unless your stance is "well, I had to serve in war and in the field, so should he".

Interesting that you say that as you brought up the term. My stance is as I stated: you take the King's coin, you serve. I did not have to serve in a war; I did so as a volunteer who trained to do so as part of my job.


IMO, that viewpoint is immature and is a result of jealousy and anger, not actual reasoning...not to mention a failure to see the big picture beyond one's self.

You are welcome to your opinion. I am neither jealous nor angry at the Lieutenant. He is a disappointment. You seem to equate the big picture with West Point football. I would say the issue is larger than that; apparently DoD thought so, too.

Tom

[jkm_101_fso]

You are welcome to your opinion. I am neither jealous nor angry at the Lieutenant. He is a disappointment. You seem to equate the big picture with West Point football. I would say the issue is larger than that; apparently DoD thought so, too.

I don't see how he is a disappointment...what do you mean? Because he agreed to the now-defunct policy of letting him play?

I think the big picture, at least initially, was West Point Football. The original policy (letting him play in the NFL) was designed to attract more quality players to USMA, thus resulting in the program becoming more successful. The policy was reversed, which means at some point, someone "in charge" thought it was a good idea. Apparently they were "trumped" by either a non-football fan or someone who was sick of hearing the collective whining from the force about 2LT Campbell's unique opportunity.

[Tom Odom]

I don't see how he is a disappointment...what do you mean? Because he agreed to the now-defunct policy of letting him play?

I think the big picture, at least initially, was West Point Football. The original policy (letting him play in the NFL) was designed to attract more quality players to USMA, thus resulting in the program becoming more successful. The policy was reversed, which means at some point, someone "in charge" thought it was a good idea. Apparently they were "trumped" by either a non-football fan or someone who was sick of hearing the collective whining from the force about 2LT Campbell's unique opportunity.

Again all your opinion and that's ok. As for disappointment, an officer that takes an oath during wartime who feels playing football is more important than service fits that bill. I would say the same thing applies to those who framed the policy. DoD does in fact trump Army; whether it was a non-football fan or reaction to comments from the field is debatable.

We will have to disagree that West Point football is "Big Picture".

Finally I would also suggest you avoid the use of "whining" when dismissing other's opinions.

Tom

[jkm_101_fso]

Finally I would also suggest you avoid the use of "whining" when dismissing other's opinions.

You are absolutely correct, Sir. I was wrong.

Much like the "it's ok for an Officer to call their NCOs by their first name" debate (GEN KILL thread), I'll concede the argument to the older and much wiser, which you are, Sir. However, I think you need young, mouthy kids like me around, if for anything else, entertainment purposes.

[Hacksaw]

I was going to stay out of this one, but...

Air Assault, Tom has a very good point regarding characterizing others opinions as whining -- I can't recall ever characterizing a comment by Tom or Ken as "whining", not to mention it really diminishes your point.

As for young LT Campbell, I took the position that I blame the sin more than the sinner -- I had great issue with the policy (DA) and those who promoted the policy than I did with 21 yr old who choose to chase a childhood dream he once thought beyond his reach.

While his comments showed a lack of maturity, I have always wondered why USMA failed to see that their "product" came out emotionally/socially stunted. LT Campbell's comments merely supported that perspective.

Perhaps the difference in how you and others define the "big picture" is likewise a matter of perspective.

I can tell you this, and i think it is most telling-- My wife (I married far better than she did) was watching TV with me when we first became aware of the policy and LT Campbell. Her reaction (a 20 year Army wife veteran) was visceral. She was offended and couldn't understand why an exception was being made in this and other cases.

In a world of shades of gray -- she is quite the moral compass. They got this one right in the end.

Live well and row

[Ken White]

...I can tell you this, and i think it is most telling-- My wife (I married far better than she did) was watching TV with me when we first became aware of the policy and LT Campbell. Her reaction (a 20 year Army wife veteran) was visceral. She was offended and couldn't understand why an exception was being made in this and other cases.Since I rarely watch TV, mine was aware of it first and told me, spluttering and frothing at the time. The phrase 'mad as a wet hen' came to mind -- not that I dared say it... :eek:

Perhaps of greater interest was the reaction of our kid, the 11B 1SG who put bad words together in quite interesting combinations about the poor example set for the Troops. :mad:
In a world of shades of gray -- she is quite the moral compass. They got this one right in the end.Mine, too and I think you're right, they did.

[jkm_101_fso]

Despite his disappointment, Campbell said he is "really excited" for his next assignment — a year as a graduate assistant football coach for the Army, either at the U.S. Military Academy or the service academy's preparatory school.




http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8375114?MSNHPHCP&GT1=39002

[wm]

was trumped by "Duty, Honor, Country" I'm pleasantly surprised to say the least.

[RTK]

Sometimes the level of martyrdom on this forum is amazing. Not just with this thread, but others as well. Remember this one? http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=5611

I see no difference between my position in this thread and my position with field grade officers. I have problems with officers getting special treatment when Soldiers are not afforded the same benefits. I say that as a senior Captain who has seen it happen too often.

[Ken White]

this:
"...looks like he's not headed to IZ anytime soon..."strikes me as a typical Army reaction to being caught wrong. Grudgingly comply but do so with bad grace and while thumbing the collective nose at Congress, DoD or whomever. In this case by not just putting his name in the hopper but in assigning him as a Graduate Assistant Coach. Puh-lease....

Talk about an example of
"IMO, ... immature and is a result of jealousy and anger, not actual reasoning...not to mention a failure to see the big picture beyond one's self..."Way to go DA -- Shades of Apaches into Bosnia or the great M4 debacle. "You can't tell me what to do..."

With a caveat that in this case someone may just be trying to assuage a bitter pill as the Army offered to let him go in good faith and got overruled, ergo they'll try to make up for that to an extent. If that's the case, I'd say laudable bur not too smart. All things considered, it's a policy that should logically on a popular consumption basis have been suspended for the duration and this is not a great response by the Army to the DoD edict IMO. YMMV.

[patmc]

Would the Army compassionately reassign Joe if he was expecting to ETS and play pro football, but one day from release, he was stop lossed? Would they give him a cushy coaching job? The stop lossed Soldiers I know, were sent to Iraq for a year (and though they were not NFL caliber, they were awesome people).

I joined ROTC my sophomore year, and took the oath right before i left for ROTC basic camp that summer. When I passed the camp, I was told that I could still quit, but if I showed up to ROTC, I was obligated from that point on, and to get out of it, would take a pretty damn good reason, and repayment of my scholarship. That was 2001-2002. LT Campbell entered USMA after 2001, knowing we were at war. He took the oath, and if he knew he would be happier playing football, he should have transferred. The reaction of every officer I've talked to about this topic was disgust, and no pity. I can understand he is disappointed in not going to the NFL, but there are worse fates in life. He is not dead, wounded, or scarred. He's not even going overseas anytime soon. He should be going to Fort Bliss or Fort Sill for ADA Basic Course, but will he even do that if he is coaching?

Bad policy on the Army, but bad on him for taking the free ride, then using a loophole to try and sit out the war, and maybe ride the pine.


With a caveat that in this case someone may just be trying to assuage a bitter pill as the Army offered to let him go in good faith and got overruled, ergo they'll try to make up for that to an extent. If that's the case, I'd say laudable bur not too smart. All things considered, it's a policy that should logically on a popular consumption basis have been suspended for the duration and this is not a great response by the Army to the DoD edict IMO. YMMV.

[jkm_101_fso]

I also had this same discussion at work, among a group of a dozen officers and NCOs; including 3 USMA grads (one of whom played basketball at West Point). The general consensus was: "Hey good for this guy, I hope he excels for the Lions and makes the All-Rookie team, great PR for the Army, etc." Seriously only one guy in the discussion disagreed; and it was the same SFC that bitches about everything.

Maybe I'm jaded by my passion for football and competetive sports. I desperately want West Point to field a great team, just like Navy has done recently. And if it means one or two guys like Campbell get out of active their service obligation every year, then so be it. I think he's much more of a value to the Army and West Point playing special teams for the Lions then by being an XO of a Patriot Missile Battery; Any LT can do that. Campbell has special talent; it must be utilized to the benefit of USMA and the Army. I was really rooting for the guy to make the team. But I guess it doesn't matter now since DoD stepped in and squashed the Army on this one. Too bad. It really is a shame.

[Tom Odom]

You are absolutely correct, Sir. I was wrong.

Much like the "it's ok for an Officer to call their NCOs by their first name" debate (GEN KILL thread), I'll concede the argument to the older and much wiser, which you are, Sir. However, I think you need young, mouthy kids like me around, if for anything else, entertainment purposes.

And so are you correct in that we need you. Different views stimulate discussion.

I would have to agree with Ken on the final resolution of this one: the DoD got it right and the Army got it dead wrong.

Keep questioning.

Tom

[RTK]

He should be going to Fort Bliss or Fort Sill for ADA Basic Course, but will he even do that if he is coaching?

If he doesn't graduate BOLC III, he will never see 1LT. He's going to have to go to either Sill or Benning first for BOLC II. Knowing that BOLC II is backlogged until around January, I would imagine he won't go until the season is over (for West Point that should be right after the Army-Navy game).

[Schmedlap]

Regarding the belief that Campbell would be a good PR move for the Army if he played in the NFL, I think that is bizarro thinking. The bedrock of being a Soldier is adherence to the Army Values. Duty and Selfless Service really jump out in this case. They are about fulfilling obligations and putting the welfare of the country and the Army before your own. If Campbell's move to the NFL had any PR effect (and we can now only speculate, since it is not happening), it would have been negative. It would have only appealed to individuals who have no desire to be Soldiers, but rather individuals desiring to use the Army as a catapult for their non-service aspirations.

I also sympathize with the view that Campbell is immature and probably not ready for the attention that his situation received. The Army is more to blame for this than a newly minted 2LT. Young leaders look for professional guidance to their superiors and the institution. The Army provided a unique, but legitimate avenue for this guy to pursue an NFL career, making it very easy for the 2LT to rationalize the decision and even embrace it as a legitimate career move. The Army failed Campbell by leading him to believe that this was acceptable.

Had it been clear to Campbell that he was going to serve 5 years active duty as a US Army Officer, no exceptions considered, then I think that he would have accepted this. Just imagine if he had that mindset as he neared the end of his education at West Point, then served 5 honorable years in whatever capacity with no expectation of special treatment, then made a decision of whether to separate or stay in, opting to pursue an NFL career. Now THAT would be good PR for the Army. Instead, we now have a young 2LT who made headlines because he was going to get special treatment due to a poorly thought out policy and misguided expectations, got his hopes up, then had his hopes dashed following a policy change foisted upon the Army, and grudgingly followed according to the letter of the policy, while defying the spirit of it. This creates the impression that the Army is willing to give unequal treatment, renege on its obligations, and defy the values that it is expected to embrace, and when corrected by DoD, it will behave like a small child who, when told to go to his room, does so, but stamps his feet all the way there, slams the door, and shouts, "I hate living here!"

This incident should be a case study in the schoolhouses.

[jkm_101_fso]

I also sympathize with the view that Campbell is immature and probably not ready for the attention that his situation received. The Army is more to blame for this than a newly minted 2LT. Young leaders look for professional guidance to their superiors and the institution. The Army provided a unique, but legitimate avenue for this guy to pursue an NFL career, making it very easy for the 2LT to rationalize the decision and even embrace it as a legitimate career move. The Army failed Campbell by leading him to believe that this was acceptable.

Thank you.

[MikeF]

Former Army pro baseball player upset with decision on Campbell (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/lions/2008-07-24-army-campbell_N.htm)

Capt. Schulyer Williamson, only the second Army graduate to be selected in Major League Baseball's first-year player draft when he was chosen by the Detroit Tigers in 2005, is disappointed that he won't be able to see recent West Point graduate Caleb Campbell realize his dream of playing for the NFL's Detroit Lions this season. "It's a shame," Williamson, who participated in the Army's Alternative Service Program for one year before retiring from baseball to pursue his Army career, said. He has since served in Iraq. "In my eyes, Caleb can do more to help the Army by playing in the NFL than I did in my 15 months in Iraq." Campbell told the Associated Press he will be a graduate assistant football coach either at West Point or the service academy's preparatory school. After a year, he said, he will report to officer training.

-- Jill Lieber Steeg, USA Today

I have no opinion on Campbell's venture. I think Schmedlep got it right above with the maturity thing. "If" Campbell maintains a good attitude, is surrounding with charasmatic O's and wise NCOs, then he will be fine.

However, I thought Williamson's comment was interesting.

[Ken White]

"Instead, we now have a young 2LT who made headlines because he was going to get special treatment due to a poorly thought out policy and misguided expectations, got his hopes up, then had his hopes dashed following a policy change foisted upon the Army, and grudgingly followed according to the letter of the policy, while defying the spirit of it. This creates the impression that the Army is willing to give unequal treatment, renege on its obligations, and defy the values that it is expected to embrace, and when corrected by DoD, it will behave like a small child who, when told to go to his room, does so, but stamps his feet all the way there, slams the door, and shouts, "I hate living here!""Well said, Schmedlap.

[Entropy]

Yeah, I agree, well said, Schmedlap.

[jmm99]

among females linked to males on this site. Asked my spouse of too many decades about the Campbell flap. She said she read the article in the sports pages. So, what do you think ? "He shouldn't have enlisted."

Asked about the other guy's comment about other ways to serve country other than bullets passing by. "He shouldn't have enlisted either."

Not a new attitude for her; but perhaps enhanced by the fact that one of her friends (in a Guard unit) just got back from her second OIF tour. No special treatment for meat-cutters.

[MikeF]

I think Jmm99 and the wives just ended this thread.

I'd submit that we step once again into the breach of Iraq, Afghanistan, and thereafter.

In the end, in this volunteer Army, the soldiers' actions will bear the truth of our nation's ascent or decline. Emphasis on volunteer. In this age of the volunteer, the notion of citizen is diminished.

20% percent of my boys had an advanced degree. 40% of my boys took a significant pay cut to enlist (I'd call my privates the post-9/11 boys). The expoloits of Campbell and others are irrevelent in the Long War.

Rereading my own post, I'm turning on my Ipod and placing a yellow flaq on my car.

Maybe I need to reevaluate and volunteer for a MTT.

Facta Non Verba

Mike.

[Ken White]

Angels. Angels on the head of a pin. How many? There are more important things to be sure but...

:D

[MikeF]

Ken,

My entire retort/prose/response was based off the tenant of volunteer...Inuitive to the regard that if would (our angels) suffice our current need in forces.

As we (actually both) agree, if we are wrong, then there must be some other sacrifice of the 330 million of the USA.

-Just a young boy spilling words...

Mike

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

When my daughter (Specialist, MP, deploying to IZ soon) heard this her reaction was typical: "That's f****n b******t" and I belive she questioned the LT's manhood (the unfortunate byproduct of growing up with a lot of young Marines around).

Which makes me consider a change the wording of bumper sticker I was planning to get later this year to:



Don't worry LT Campbell...
my daughter's in Iraq so you don't have to go.

[Uboat509]

Personally, I couldn't possibly care less if West Point has a great football team, or even a football team at all. I also don't care about this kids dream to play in the NFL, I have a dream about dating Holly Hunter but that isn't going to happen either. On the other hand I would like to see some sort of cost benefit analysis on this whole thing. Duty, Honor and Country mean an awful lot to those of us who post here but it means exactly squat to a lot of kids out there today. If this guy playing in the NFL will convince (perhaps influence might be a better term) more kids to join up then maybe that is more important than having another 2LT in the ADA (actually I believe that virtually ANYTHING is more important than having more 2LTs in the ADA but that is a personal bias born of bitter experience so I shall refrain from commenting further). I honestly don't know if he would have that much influence on recruitment but I suspect that it is worth at least a look.

SFC W

[Tom Odom]

Holly Hunter? It could happen....:D

[Ken White]

Ken,

My entire retort/prose/response was based off the tenant of volunteer...Inuitive to the regard that if would (our angels) suffice our current need in forces.serious stuff but an aside into the arcane like LT Campobell is okay on occasion, I think. I was in essence saying you were correct, no more. Just did it with tongue in cheek (which may be why my wife tells me to avoid trying to be a comedian... :o).
As we (actually both) agree, if we are wrong, then there must be some other sacrifice of the 330 million of the USA.Not the American way. Even in WW II, we at home did not sacrifice much, since then we have not suffered at all :wry:.

My personal belief is that's okay even if it is at times annoying. Those of us who wear or wore war suits mostly did it voluntarily, all voluntarily in the last 36 or so years, we pay a price to allow that to happen and we all have the option to pay it or quit. I did it for a long time and have no regrets. :cool: Everyone has to make their own mind up on the pros and cons...
-Just a young boy spilling words...

MikeOld men have more words. They may make less sense but, by god, we got more! ;)

Keep up the fire.

[RYNO]

This officer served as a graduate assistant wrestling coach for his first assignment after commissioning. These assignments are normally about 6-9 months and in my case I was starting AOBC on 2 JAN after a 30 MAY commissioning. I did it mostly because I wanted to start my life (paying bills, living on my own-not in barracks, new freedom) in a familiar place close to my hometown, not because of any serious professional thinking...it had the benefit (unknown to me at the time), I believe, of making me a much better teacher, coach, mentor as an officer in general, as a leader of troops, as an SGI to new captains, and in my current position, as a trainer of new Armor LTs.

It is routine for West Point to take a very small number of its more successful athletes, usually one per program, and ask them to stay for 6-9 months as a 2LT to be a Grad assistant. Some of the duties they are given (see how they apply to working in the force): recruiting (retention), planning and executing strength and conditioning workouts (PT), practices (training), breaking down film (AARs), mentoring freshmen (mentoring young Soldiers/Officers).

A majority of the people I know who served as GAs had some potential for a "professional" (term used loosely) sports career, whether it was football, baseball, whatever, or to continue representing the Army in the World Class Athlete Program or All-Army Teams. USMA will assign these types of folks both for the institution and the individual. I only know of three that continued trying to pursue that course, all the rest entered their branch.

Given 2LT Campbell's situation--I was behind it if the Army did it right: assigning a mentor/trigger puller to him from the Army's PAO and another from Recruiting Command to fully develop/utilize his potential as a recruiter. It didn't seem like we were going to do it right, so I am with the policy change. As for the core values at USMA or athletics at the institution, I think we beat those up enough...

[Uboat509]

Interesting article (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8377544). According to this, it wasn't even his idea to take this exemption. He was going to transfer to another school before he incured the service requirement but the coach at WP convinced him to stay and seek the exemption.

SFC W

[wm]

Interesting article (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8377544). According to this, it wasn't even his idea to take this exemption. He was going to transfer to another school before he incured the service requirement but the coach at WP convinced him to stay and seek the exemption.

SFC W

Tough to take the word of that head coach (Bobby Ross) for much. Didn't he bolt from the job a few months later, after his third losing season? USMA is not the NFL, an ACC school like GA Tech or Maryland, or even The Citadel (the other places Ross coached).

[Shek]

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=4416326


Updated: August 22, 2009, 5:05 PM ET
Campbell's bobsled hopes improve
Associated Press
Caleb Campbell is still in the Olympic bobsled picture.

Campbell, the U.S. Army soldier and West Point graduate drafted by the Detroit Lions last year before being told his NFL career needed to wait, finished 10th Saturday at the U.S. Bobsled Federation's push championship qualifier in Lake Placid, N.Y.

He's no cinch for the Vancouver roster, but Saturday's times likely earned him a spot in the national team trials, starting in Lake Placid in mid-October. Campbell said two drivers have already asked him about joining their teams.

[Jedburgh]

I'm resurrecting a five year old thread here, but its better to recycle than to waste, and the old discussion provides background to the article:

Washington Post, 23 Feb 14: West Point is Placing Too Much Emphasis on Football (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/west-point-is-placing-too-much-emphasis-on-football/2014/02/23/a4f08694-97fa-11e3-afce-3e7c922ef31e_story.html)

Internal studies conducted in the past decade show that, once at West Point, recruited football players are more than twice as likely to fail courses, more likely to leave the Army early and less likely to be promoted to higher ranks in the Army compared with their non-recruited counterparts. There are exceptions, of course…...Yet the aggregate numbers demonstrate that loosening academic standards runs counter to the academy’s mission to prepare each graduate “for a career of professional excellence and service to the Nation as an officer in the United States Army.”

[Granite_State]

Reopened for a nauseating postscript:


Greenspan wouldn't get into specifics. But Campbell, the gridiron Cadet who was called back to West Point, did. Before his 2008 graduation from Army, as his effort to go pro (behind the Academy's ASO exemption) was becoming national news, he received an anonymous handwritten letter. "I want you to muster up the balls to walk over to the West Point cemetery and stand in front of each headstone of recent graduates who were killed in Iraq or Afghanistan and tell them that you are going to face just as much pressure as they did," it read. "I doubt you'll do that. You'll kiss them off like you're kissing off your classmates."

The trolling might've broken Campbell, now 32, if he hadn't also been so strongly backed. "People can scrutinize, but they were not sitting at a round table with two-, three-, four-star generals," he says. "And then there were all my superior officers from the United States Military Academy, giving me advice, telling me what I should be doing. And I'm just saying, 'O.K., I'll go for it."

In the end, though, perhaps it was better for Campbell that he was called back to West Point. That year the Lions became the first NFL team to lose 16 games in a season. For the next two years he operated on the fringes of the Robinson Rule—first as a grad assistant on the West Point coaching staff, then as a bobsledder in the Army's World Class Athlete Program (an Olympic and Paralympic training ground), then in officer school at Fort Sill, in southwest Oklahoma.

In 2010, upon satisfying his active duty obligation, Campbell circled back to Detroit, signing a one-year contract. Relegated to special teams, he played three games before being cut in '11. From there he bounced from Indianapolis to Kansas City—sabotaging himself, he says, at every stop. "I was so afraid of being exposed as this person that didn't have what it took to make it in the NFL," he recalls. "But if I can sabotage my career, I'll always have an excuse on why I didn't make it. I can sleep at night saying, well, if I would've studied, I guarantee I would've made it in the NFL. At the end of the day I just didn't have the balls to quit."

In August 2012 the Chiefs put Campbell out of his misery, serving him a final NFL pink slip. He resettled in Buffalo, found work with a marketing and design firm and joined a church just across the Niagara River, in Fort Erie, Ont. There, he would become so rehearsed in sharing his testimony—a soul-searching allegory—that he would respin it into a side career as a motivational speaker.

Not surprisingly, Campbell, because of his Army experience, views the abandonment of the Robinson Rule more diplomatically than most. "For us to continue to have the maximum influence [as an institution], I think it's pivotal that we are able to recruit better athletes," he says. "For us to be able to compete at the Division I level, it's necessary for us to recruit."

http://www.si.com/more-sports/2017/01/19/sports-us-military-connection

The whole article is worth reading, in a bad way.