Saving their Souls in Fallujah?

[Tacitus]

I don't know what to make of this one. The Seattle Times story describes Marines apparently proselytizing as Christian missionaries in Fallujah.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2004444827_iraqgospel29.html

Would this not play into the hands of Al Qaeda's claims that the war in Iraq is cover for a war against Islam? I'm just sort of wondering out loud why a soldier or marine in an Islamic country would think this is a really good idea.

[Ken White]

has no business doing -- American Soldiers and Marines excel at that. :wry: -- and some NCO is NOT doing his job of making sure that doesn't happen... :mad:

Heh. I foresee reverbrations descending from E-ring to the fire team level...

[Danny]

Whomever is doing this should stop, and even as a Christian I can say this with certainty. Constabulary authority doesn't mix well with evangelism. Some well-meaning but unwise young man just needs to be counseled. Good job for a 2nd Lt. Ten or Fifteen minute conversation, everything cleared up.

However ... I doubt that the story is as big as made out to be in this article. It sounds to me like someone was searching for a story to write.

[Ken White]

failure, pure and simple. I have little doubt his first line boss knows he's doing that -- and NO doubt that he should know and should've never let it happen.

If, of course it happened at all...

[Tom Odom]

Whomever is doing this should stop, and even as a Christian I can say this with certainty. Constabulary authority doesn't mix well with evangelism. Some well-meaning but unwise young man just needs to be counseled. Good job for a 2nd Lt. Ten or Fifteen minute conversation, everything cleared up.

However ... I doubt that the story is as big as made out to be in this article. It sounds to me like someone was searching for a story to write.


All true...

but it was in the Ebird so Ken is prolly right about E-ring reverberations...

[RTK]

2 COAs.

1. Someone really believes it's his duty to convert the Fallujah people to Christianity.

2. Some one or some platoon got their seventh care package from a Christian group and thought it would be funny to hand all the coins out.

"I'll take 'Second and Third Order Strategic Effects of Tactical Actions' for 2000, Alex."

[Ken White]

and the rest of the day off... :D

[selil]

You have no idea how this is playing in the bayous and backwoods of the bible belt. Oh my gosh the absolute riot that any muslim who takes offense should be crucified (direct quote).... Ouch...

[wm]

2 COAs.

1. Someone really believes it's his duty to convert the Fallujah people to Christianity.

2. Some one or some platoon got their seventh care package from a Christian group and thought it would be funny to hand all the coins out.

"I'll take 'Second and Third Order Strategic Effects of Tactical Actions' for 2000, Alex."

How about "Monty's Cookie Jar (a variant on Door Number 2)--
Some evangelist gave the young stud a bunch of coins prior to deployment--sort of like the lady who got on the bus I was taking from San Fran International to Travis AFB en route to places Oriental. She gave me a handful of religious tracts and said, "Read this son and pass some out. It will comfort you when your plane crashes into the Pacific, like mine did."

[Ken White]

Where Joe is involved, never put down to serious intent anything likely to be seen by him as 'fun' ... ;)

IF it happened at all. That is a McClatchy report...

[Ken White]

LINK (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/29/iraq.bible/index.html)

[Adam L]

Can anyone tell me about what exactly those being deployed to Iraq are being taught about Islam's views on converts? Specifically what is being taught about those who convert from being Muslim. From what I've read, this is the most evil of actions. Infidels are apparently better than those who convert away from Islam. (This isn't meant to sound critical. I am actually curious about what troops are being taught.)

Adam L

[Schmedlap]

You cannot single-handedly accomplish the mission. But you sure can screw it up.

Flagrant stupidity should be an offense meriting judicial punishment under UCMJ. It is certainly more damaging to the mission than smoking pot during leave or getting a DUI (both candidates for UCMJ action).

Target practice with a Koran in Iraq (a Lithuanian Soldier and two ANA Soldiers were killed in Afghanistan after people freaked out over this) and handing out coins with bible verses in Fallujah (thanks for reinforcing the AQI propaganda) seem to fit neatly into that category.

[Adam L]

You cannot single-handedly accomplish the mission. But you sure can screw it up.

Flagrant stupidity should be an offense meriting judicial punishment under UCMJ. It is certainly more damaging to the mission than smoking pot during leave or getting a DUI (both candidates for UCMJ action).

Target practice with a Koran in Iraq (a Lithuanian Soldier and two ANA Soldiers were killed in Afghanistan after people freaked out over this) and handing out coins with bible verses in Fallujah (thanks for reinforcing the AQI propaganda) seem to fit neatly into that category.

You are absolutely right. It's hard to get things right, but it is too easy to screw things up. Incidents like this have almost unlimited utility as propaganda for our enemies. It actually plays into their long running propaganda that we have been waging a holy war against them. On your point of judicial punishment, you have a good point. I am not familiar with the UCMJ. As far as I am concerned, with it being all but impossible for someone not to know how people have reacted to similar incidents in the past, this is reckless endangerment at minimum.

Adam L

[120mm]

Ironically enough, this "Christian" gets a FAIL for "obeying the authorities God has placed over him...."

We have an idiot on post who tries this crap with our COBs. He hasn't been UCMJ'd.... yet.

[selil]

The unformulated question in my mind is could this be an example of America producing our own radical Christian analog to Al Queda? That is likely a poor way to phrase it, but this Marine went against all of his training, did something so far from mission, and all of this following another severe incident involving the physical destruction of the Koran.

If it isn't psyop/IO on the part of Al Queda they aren't trying hard enought.

It could just be media sensitivity to the issue rising from the previous incident.

When patterns start to emerge there is usually agency behind them even if we don't understand it.

Musings sorry.

[Ron Humphrey]

The unformulated question in my mind is could this be an example of America producing our own radical Christian analog to Al Queda? That is likely a poor way to phrase it, but this Marine went against all of his training, did something so far from mission, and all of this following another severe incident involving the physical destruction of the Koran.

If it isn't psyop/IO on the part of Al Queda they aren't trying hard enought.

It could just be media sensitivity to the issue rising from the previous incident.

When patterns start to emerge there is usually agency behind them even if we don't understand it.

Musings sorry.

The key things to remember here are

1- Soldiers have a mission and that is to secure a population so that it's governance can learn how to take care of it.
The key thing missing in the thought processes behind both incidences (besides perhaps a little bit of psychosis in one) is the understanding that for that population the one thing they have felt secure in throughout all the crap in their recent history is their faith(emphasis added). As a soldier the issue of whether their faith is correct or even fair is irrelevant but as a human being our soldiers also carry beliefs which help them make it through trying times.

The real question is how to get everyone to accept that if you truly believe what you believe then it can and will speak for itself through your actions, words. I don't think this soldier sat at home making up those coins but probably some very caring individuals here who don't know the culture nor see the implications on a mission they don't understand probably provided them.

That said there is a point at which we should set forth limits for our actions in so far as if we become expected to put aside our own beliefs and yet are required to be receptive to the local messages then we are failing to set the example of freedom of religion within our own ranks. This is an area where we simply let actions speak louder than words. We probably just need to work harder on making sure our soldiers know what that really means.

(more musings)

[wm]

Religions that focus on eschatology, which BTW includes the whole Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, tend to be much more focussed on what happens in the afterlife than in the current life. As a result, such true believers have little problem with martyrdom and the effects on the living of other actions that they may take in this world, as long as those actions do not hinder the actors' chances of achieving a better state in their afterlives. For example, I heard a minister say, post 9-11, that he was not really concerned about the increased danger of flying--he viewed it as a blessing because he might die sooner and, therefore, be reunited with God sooner. He said he had no fear of death since death brought a greater reward for him. He also had no real concern with the impact of his plane crashing on the other passengers and those who might be in the path of the debris.

I think it is probably pretty hard to engage in a rational argument with those who hold ardently to such beliefs about the impact of one's actions in the here and now on the folks who continue to live on after that person goes to his/her "reward."

[marct]

The unformulated question in my mind is could this be an example of America producing our own radical Christian analog to Al Queda?....

When patterns start to emerge there is usually agency behind them even if we don't understand it.

You know, Sam, you folks have had your AQ analog for quite some time now both at the ideological level (e.g. the Moral Majority, some of the extremist White Supremacist groups, etc. BTW, I'm not saying they are the same outside of their analog as fanatical ideological groups ;)) and at the level of action cells (the Militia movements, etc.).


Religions that focus on eschatology, which BTW includes the whole Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, tend to be much more focussed on what happens in the afterlife than in the current life. As a result, such true believers have little problem with martyrdom and the effects on the living of other actions that they may take in this world, as long as those actions do not hinder the actors' chances of achieving a better state in their afterlives.

Good point, WM. The type of radical transcendentalist theology that really pushes the eschatalogical agendas in this tradition usually doesn't change until its believers get their faces rubbed in it. For Judaism, it was the period from 68 bce to 135 ce that did it, for most of Western Christianity, it was the Thirty Years War and its aftermath. So far, no analog fr Islam comes to mind...


I think it is probably pretty hard to engage in a rational argument with those who hold ardently to such beliefs about the impact of one's actions in the here and now on the folks who continue to live on after that person goes to his/her "reward."

True. And have you also noticed that, in its extreme form, it also never seems to impact their judgement of what will happen to them in the afterlife?

[wm]

You know, Sam, you folks have had your AQ analog for quite some time now both at the ideological level (e.g. the Moral Majority, some of the extremist White Supremacist groups, etc. BTW, I'm not saying they are the same outside of their analog as fanatical ideological groups ;)) and at the level of action cells (the Militia movements, etc.).

Actually, I think it has been around in what was to become the USA since around 1620 when a group of folks landed at Plymouth Rock.


Good point, WM. The type of radical transcendentalist theology that really pushes the eschatalogical agendas in this tradition usually doesn't change until its believers get their faces rubbed in it. For Judaism, it was the period from 68 bce to 135 ce that did it, for most of Western Christianity, it was the Thirty Years War and its aftermath. So far, no analog fr Islam comes to mind... It has a habit of resurrecting itself (pun intended) until it gets slapped back down through other corrective belief experiences--I think most folks can identify further, more modern examples for Judaism after the Zealot Rebellion or Bar Kochba. And WWI played an analogue to the 30 Years War for Christianity IMHO. I think the latter half of the 19th Century and the establishment/success of the modern Israeli nation state ought to be belief correcting experiences for eschatological Islam but, for reasons that elude me, have not yet become such.

[Cavguy]

Good comments by all.

I actually am surprised it took this long for an incident like this to happen, given the strength of the evangelical movement inside the military. I'll never forget walking patrol in Tal Afar past a poor Iraqi kid in a 'Jesus Loves Me' t-shirt that obviously had been given out by a prior unit. No one had an objection, but I'm not sure anyone in that particular dirt poor area could read English.

[marct]

Hi WM,


Actually, I think it has been around in what was to become the USA since around 1620 when a group of folks landed at Plymouth Rock.

Could be - there is certainly a long history of millennial movements in the US, and they tend to be the ones who produce extreme fanatics.


It has a habit of resurrecting itself (pun intended) until it gets slapped back down through other corrective belief experiences--I think most folks can identify further, more modern examples for Judaism after the Zealot Rebellion or Bar Kochba.

Possible. I suspect that both the Expulsion from Spain and the 16th century millennial movements in Eastern Europe (e.g. Sabbatai Sevi) could play a part in it.


And WWI played an analogue to the 30 Years War for Christianity IMHO.

I would agree that it did so for the concept of unilinear evolution (e.g. progress towards perfection; sort of the secular eschatology developed by Social Darwinists and others). For Christianity itself? I don't know about that, although maybe for Christianity in Europe.


I think the latter half of the 19th Century and the establishment/success of the modern Israeli nation state ought to be belief correcting experiences for eschatological Islam but, for reasons that elude me, have not yet become such.

I suspect that the process goes back to a combination of Hoffer's observations on True Believers and to having a geographical locus for a religious group and seeing that religion being used as an excuse to smash the geographic locus. Just a guess, but it might be worth following up.

[120mm]

Good comments by all.

I actually am surprised it took this long for an incident like this to happen, given the strength of the evangelical movement inside the military. I'll never forget walking patrol in Tal Afar past a poor Iraqi kid in a 'Jesus Loves Me' t-shirt that obviously had been given out by a prior unit. No one had an objection, but I'm not sure anyone in that particular dirt poor area could read English.

My own experience was kind of the inverse of this. When we encountered Iraqi vendors in the opening days of OIF I, they were well-stocked with "Christian" paraphenalia and were vainly trying to sell it to us. Icons, crosses, coffee cups, t-shirts, decorated bibles, you name it, they were trying to push it on us...

Unfortunately for them, I think their marketing was based on an incorrect assumption of that same "evangelical movement inside the military". (We WERE "Christian Invaders" after all:rolleyes:) Much is made about this supposed "movement", but in reality, I think it has more to do with American society's radical move to atheism, while the military isn't moving that direction quite as fast.

My experience, as a Christian in the US Army, is that the vast majority of soldiers are much more interested in getting laid, getting drunk, getting high (without getting caught, of course) and avoiding work (extra points are awarded if you work harder to avoid the work, than just doing the work itself, of course....) ;)more than proselytizing....

But I'm interested in how many of the higher ranks become "neo-Christians" once they take command/get in que for a choice, promotable job....

[Sarajevo071]

However ... I doubt that the story is as big as made out to be in this article. It sounds to me like someone was searching for a story to write.


You have no idea how this is playing in the bayous and backwoods of the bible belt. Oh my gosh the absolute riot that any muslim who takes offense should be crucified (direct quote).... Ouch...

You should see what Salafi sites saying on all this... It is not that small incident for them.

This story remind me on time when Catholic "humanitarian" organization (CARITAS) refused to gave food and milk to people unless they can show them that one is Christian... So, I guess, story is big in many different circles regardless on polarity and with different reasons.

[Sarajevo071]

The unformulated question in my mind is could this be an example of America producing our own radical Christian analog to Al Queda?

Do you mean something like this?

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

[Tacitus]

... I think it has more to do with American society's radical move to atheism, while the military isn't moving that direction quite as fast.

America's radical move to Atheism? I've traveled fairly widely across the country the last few years and can't recall anyplace without a healthy number of places of worship: church, cathedral, storefront, mosque, synagogue, commune, Buddhist temple, you name it. I also read about Wiccan, Druid, and assorted New Age meeting places. That polygamous Mormon compound in Texas currently in the news just serves to show you that there is SOME theistic association, no matter what floats your boat.

Theism, of whatever form and denomination, seems firmly rooted in the USA. This is probably because of our lack of a state sponsored religion, which has proven quite detrimental for theism in other places.

I have co-workers and inlaws who throw out the term "atheism" as a shorthand word for any group which is NOT characterized by a Protestant Christian, fundamentalist, Evangelical, premillenial dispensationalism approach to God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premillennialism
But this is mainly because they believe that if you don't bring this kind of theistic approach, you are doomed to roast in eternal hellfire. Obviously this would include atheists. But a fiery eternity also awaits other theists, who just don't have the right theological answers.

[SWJED]

Do you mean something like this?

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

... Sarajevo. No, if you think that "Jesus Camp" is representative of our culture you'd be mistaken by magnitudes.

[marct]

Do you mean something like this?

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/


... Sarajevo. No, if you think that "Jesus Camp" is representative of our culture you'd be mistaken by magnitudes.

Great to see you back! The "Jesus Camp" stuff is definitely not representative of US culture - far be it from me to say what is :eek:;). So, what are the Safali and Wahabi boards saying about the incident?

Marc

[Rex Brynen]

Sarajevo's point, however, was that the film depicted "our own [US] radical Christian analog to Al Queda," not that it was representative of US mainstream culture.

(Of course, despite some of the statements on the film, the camp's graduates don't typically engage in mass-casualty attacks on civilians.)

[Sarajevo071]

Sarajevo's point, however, was that the film depicted "our own [US] radical Christian analog to Al Queda," not that it was representative of US mainstream culture.

THANK YOU !

Finally someone will read and understand words without having his bias implying something that was NOT said.

[Sarajevo071]

... Sarajevo. No, if you think that "Jesus Camp" is representative of our culture you'd be mistaken by magnitudes.

Where did I said that!?

:confused: :mad:

[marct]

Where did I said that!?

You didn't say that ;). It's a really good example of how extremist groups can come to be seen as "representative" of a culture, especially when they aren't :D. Actually, it's a good example of how stereotyping works, especially when there is a propaganda message associated with the stereotype. That, quoth he taking the conversation back to the Fallujah Affair, is why I was asking about what was being said on the Safali boards.

Marc

[120mm]

America's radical move to Atheism? I've traveled fairly widely across the country the last few years and can't recall anyplace without a healthy number of places of worship: church, cathedral, storefront, mosque, synagogue, commune, Buddhist temple, you name it. I also read about Wiccan, Druid, and assorted New Age meeting places. That polygamous Mormon compound in Texas currently in the news just serves to show you that there is SOME theistic association, no matter what floats your boat.

Theism, of whatever form and denomination, seems firmly rooted in the USA. This is probably because of our lack of a state sponsored religion, which has proven quite detrimental for theism in other places.

I have co-workers and inlaws who throw out the term "atheism" as a shorthand word for any group which is NOT characterized by a Protestant Christian, fundamentalist, Evangelical, premillenial dispensationalism approach to God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premillennialism
But this is mainly because they believe that if you don't bring this kind of theistic approach, you are doomed to roast in eternal hellfire. Obviously this would include atheists. But a fiery eternity also awaits other theists, who just don't have the right theological answers.

I'm simply referring to the large amount of people who are not associated, or do not submit to the discipline of their "religion". I tend to include those who belong to "invented" religions, such as Wicca, etc... (Show me their "Wiccan" heritage, and I'll think otherwise....) I guess if pressed, I'd tend to include the Easter/Christmas Christians as being functionally atheist.

Combine this with the "American Taliban Is Consuming the Country" drivel that is being spouted by neo-atheists to rally their "base".

The US is demonstrably becoming less religious, and less conservative. Despite the "double-speak" one hears from the anti-religious bigots.... One only needs to watch a movie, surf the web, listen to contemporary music, or read books on the bestseller list to understand that simple fact.

While we do NOT need an "American Taliban" I think it is just as likely that "Taliban" will come from the Left as from the Right.

[Sarajevo071]

You didn't say that ;). It's a really good example of how extremist groups can come to be seen as "representative" of a culture, especially when they aren't :D. Actually, it's a good example of how stereotyping works, especially when there is a propaganda message associated with the stereotype. That, quoth he taking the conversation back to the Fallujah Affair, is why I was asking about what was being said on the Safali boards.

Marc

Oh, one can easy imagine what they saying, right?! That is clear proof of "Americans trying to convert Muslims", "they are finally admitting what they are doing all this years", etc. Same old rhetoric from people who self appoint them self to safe guard religion... Never actually explaining if one is strong in they beliefs and have knowledge, why would one be afraid of someone else's talk or beliefs!?

[marct]

Hi 120,


I'm simply referring to the large amount of people who are not associated, or do not submit to the discipline of their "religion".

Ah, okay, that makes a lot more sense :). The term "atheist" is a tricky one, simply because it has been used as a pejorative by so many people to apply to any group that disagrees with them. Personally, I wouldn't use it to apply to people who don't "submit to the discipline of their "religion"", the technical term would be "heretic" assuming they did not meet the bare minimum disciplinary requirements. As a note, I'm not using "heretic" in the pejorative sense, I'm using it in the technical sense of one who exercise their free will to choose to do or not do something that is (or is not) mandated by their religion.

That first sense, however, of being "unassociated" is much more tricky and, I suspect, totally inaccurate in a number of cases. Their appears to be a presumption of association with an organized group, a "religion" in the sociological sense, but this is not necessarily a requirement for someone who is not an atheist. This is the "gray area" where we see the overlap of "spirituality" and "religion" with the first having to do with an individuals relationship with their god(s) and the second having to do with their relationship to other humans.


I tend to include those who belong to "invented" religions, such as Wicca, etc... (Show me their "Wiccan" heritage, and I'll think otherwise....) I guess if pressed, I'd tend to include the Easter/Christmas Christians as being functionally atheist.

Got time for a couple of pints, Drew :D? If you want the Wiccan linkages, read Ecstacies (http://www.amazon.com/Ecstasies-Deciphering-Witches-Carlo-Ginzburg/dp/0226296938/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212327453&sr=1-2) and The Night Battles (http://www.amazon.com/Night-Battles-Witchcraft-Sixteenth-Seventeenth/dp/0801843863) both by Carlo Ginzburg. The specific linkage runs from the Benandanti, to Aradia (http://www.amazon.com/ARADIA-Witches-Charles-Godfrey-Leland/dp/1602063028/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212327554&sr=1-1) and then to Gardnerian Wicca (there are also other lines as well, but none of them are well known). I also ran across groups during my MA fieldwork that I could track back over 500 years in continuous operation. To be totally fair, however, the groups that actually can be traced back are in a definite minority; probably less that 1% of the current Wiccan population.


Combine this with the "American Taliban Is Consuming the Country" drivel that is being spouted by neo-atheists to rally their "base".

Yeah, I've heard that drek as well. I tend to view it as just another example of "religion" in the secular, non-theistic sense; "atheistic" in the sense that they don't personalize their "deities", but definitely "theistic" in the sense that they make a "god" out of political correctness.


The US is demonstrably becoming less religious, and less conservative. Despite the "double-speak" one hears from the anti-religious bigots.... One only needs to watch a movie, surf the web, listen to contemporary music, or read books on the bestseller list to understand that simple fact.

If I were speaking as a scholar, I woud say that the US is becoming ore "religious", in the sense of being tied into group associations with transcendent symbol systems (not all of which are "religious" or "theistic"), and much less "spiritual". Your examples highlight, to me at least, the decreasing role of personal spirituality and its replacement with group-based "morality". Indeed, one of the common threads I have been following for some time is an increasing attack, usually by denigration, by many groups on individual spirituality, either inside a religious organization or outside of it. To me, this smacks of group-think hubris. W.B. Yeats said it better than me:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

[marct]

Hi Sarajevo,


Oh, one can easy imagine what they saying, right?! That is clear proof of "Americans trying to convert Muslims", "they are finally admitting what they are doing all this years", etc. Same old rhetoric from people who self appoint them self to safe guard religion... Never actually explaining if one is strong in they beliefs and have knowledge, why would one be afraid of someone else's talk or beliefs!?

Ah yes, the same old stuff! Honestly, I really loved your last point - why should they be afraid if they are strong in their beliefs?

[Adam L]

Sarajevo's point, however, was that the film depicted "our own [US] radical Christian analog to Al Queda," not that it was representative of US mainstream culture.

(Of course, despite some of the statements on the film, the camp's graduates don't typically engage in mass-casualty attacks on civilians.)

Good point.

What scares me about people who can be manipulated so easily is that I'm not sure how much it would take to get them to do something. I'm not saying they are going to pick up crowbars and start killing Muslims off the bat, but little stuff. Even being manipulated to look the other way scares me. When looking at the videos out of some mega churches, what worries a lot of people overseas (and here) is not that people are radical right now, but rather how easily manipulated they are or appear to be. They wonder what would happen if tomorrow or twenty years from now their minister starts preaching that they go out and smash the windows (or kill) of a ________ (Circle one: Muslim, Hindu, etc.) What I think is feeding these perceptions in the ME is that they look at us and they see themselves.

Although I believe this is very untrue for a very large majority of the population, I worry about those few who are that malleable. All it takes is a few radicals and enough people who are indifferent too or afraid and so remain neutral.

It's not just in the religious right that many people see it, I see the same thing happening in the far left. It's just another form of fundamentalism.

I have to state that in no way do I think we are anywhere near this now, but in a generation or two I worry about it. Again, nothing on the level of Al Qaeda, but I start to worry. (I am stating that I am in no way saying US mainstream culture is like this, but after watching some of they guys on tv in the middle of the night I can understand how one might think that.)

Adam L

[Sarajevo071]

I have to state that in no way do I think we are anywhere near this now, but in a generation or two I worry about it. Again, nothing on the level of Al Qaeda, but I start to worry. (I am stating that I am in no way saying US mainstream culture is like this, but after watching some of they guys on tv in the middle of the night I can understand how one might think that.)

Adam L
As long those people have U.S. Military to do fighting and killing for them there is no need for any Christian militia to start doing that on they own... If one have state apparatus and power behind him, there is no need to have revenge groups like that. Saying that, you are completely right pointing on those groups who are crawling on late night tv and calling for Armagedon.

My opinion is, they are looking for official U.S. policy to support them and stand behind them (something like Jewish state behind zionist policy) with they military and financial support. Something maybe McCain can do since he openly welcomed John Hagee support... Not to say that Obama or Clinton are against supporting zionist or neocon policy without any question. They are ready stated such in they recent speeches.

I think, we all have many reasons to be afraid all of that.

[marct]

Hi Sarajevo,


As long those people have U.S. Military to do fighting and killing for them there is no need for any Christian militia to start doing that on they own... If one have state apparatus and power behind him, there is no need to have revenge groups like that. Saying that, you are completely right pointing on those groups who are crawling on late night tv and calling for Armagedon.

That's a very good point, especially since it deals with one possible interpretation of what is happening. I can certainly see how such a view could easily be spun in a media campaign, regardless of any truth to it. Personally, I have suspicions regarding the initial motivations of the neo-cons for going into Iraq; suspicions that really haven't been set at ease by some of the recent "I wasn't MY fault" books (not the Feith comes to mind, but...).

At the same time, I really think that the vast majority of the US population thinks that these Christian "militias" (and I really don't like that term because it implies discipline and a willingness to suffer) are a bunch of twits. On a personal level, I've had run ins with two of them and, IMO, their "leaders" are power hungry materialists while many of their followers are deluded fools. As such, I suspect they are a god analog for fanatical splinter groups everywhere; they just haven't had to put their lives or material comfort on the line, and I doubt that the majority of them will :wry:.

At the same time, there are a (larger) number of Christian sects that I have run across who truly practice what they preach but do not support or condone violence (as a note, I've also run a cross a number of Muslims who are exact analogs of them). People who have a strong, personal relationship with their god(s) tend not to be threatened by others who believe differently :cool:.

Marc

[Sarajevo071]

You will need to forgive me but word "interpretation" can very easily be apply to anyone else's look on what and why is all this happening right now. Real truth is in actions (individuals or countries) and reasons why they do such a things...

But, with everything else I will easily agree with you. I agree with you regards the US population and some (true) believers. Problem today is that there are many wrongs which stopping those groups and/or individuals to step out more. In their minds dilemma is bothering them:

If we are same, like some lip service we heard, how come that brute of fighting and killings, sanctions and bombing are only in they cities and homes? And, why when they go on democratic elections they are not accepted just because "others" don't like them, even that majority of people vote freely?

So, I guess, my point would be that there are many different reasons why would one look at certain action and perceive it this or that way. After years of occupation and killings by the foreign troops, how would any of us look at they actions (those of occupation forces) and what would our reaction be?!

[Adam L]

As long those people have U.S. Military to do fighting and killing for them there is no need for any Christian militia to start doing that on they own... If one have state apparatus and power behind him, there is no need to have revenge groups like that. Saying that, you are completely right pointing on those groups who are crawling on late night tv and calling for Armagedon.


I was referring to having them go out and commit violence here in the US. This has nothing to do with revenge. There doesn't really even have to be logic behind it at all. My point was that people are becoming more and more easily manipulated and controlled. People are getting more and more desperate to be, and reamain, "happy." "Happiness", is like a drug. It is very complex, but it is something most people will do almost anything to avoid losing. We like to act otherwise, but people will ignore and/or do some pretty horrible things to maintain that state.

Sareajevo71, there are two recruiting methods here in the US for radicals. The first is the classic kind where a group goes out and finds someone down on their luck and gives them stuff and then tries to convert them to their cause. Ironically, they try to convert people using the methods a lot of religions have and do utilize. The second is pretty much the same except people aren't really down on their luck. It is very easy to convert (to a cause) board, disinterested and unsatisfied people. A lot of people just can't deal with the meaninglessness and dull character of everyday life. Look at how many people are on Prozac. It's not that everyone is clinically depressed. The more radical ideologies, whether religious or secular, often give a great sense of meaning and purpose.

Adam L



My opinion is, they are looking for official U.S. policy to support them and stand behind them (something like Jewish state behind zionist policy) with they military and financial support. Something maybe McCain can do since he openly welcomed John Hagee support... Not to say that Obama or Clinton are against supporting zionist or neocon policy without any question. They are ready stated such in they recent speeches.

I think, we all have many reasons to be afraid all of that.

I really disagree with this. More what is happening is that they will vote for anyone who will take a hard line stance at creating what they believe the bible is telling them to do about the ME. I'm starting to wonder if the reason some of the far far out guys want people to support Obama and Clinton, is because they want more conflict. I don't think this is unreasonable thing to say. After Pat Robertson went after Ariel Sharon, saying his stroke was G-d punishing him if I remember correctly, for pulling settlers out of the territories and having talks.

Adam L

[Adam L]

I should make it clear that I am no way saying that I feel that this trend I am mentioning is in anyway specific to Christians. I see this search for "happiness" going on across the board. Some people find Jesus (or other religious equivalents,) while others buy hybrids, find Chomsky or create a belief system out of anything including athiesm, agnostocism, (If Sagan were around he would put Dawkins and Hitchens in their place. He was a brilliant man who opened up the universe to millions around the globe. The universe sure is smaller without him.) environmentalism and perhaps one day football. (I believe this already exists. Its called NFL Sunday Ticket. Unfortunately those of us with cable can't join so it isn't allowed to be a religion under tax law. LOL!)

Adam L

[Sarajevo071]

I was referring to having them go out and commit violence here in the US. This has nothing to do with revenge. There doesn't really even have to be logic behind it at all. My point was that people are becoming more and more easily manipulated and controlled. People are getting more and more desperate to be, and reamain, "happy." "Happiness", is like a drug. It is very complex, but it is something most people will do almost anything to avoid losing. We like to act otherwise, but people will ignore and/or do some pretty horrible things to maintain that state.
I didn't talk about revenge either but since you mention, sure I can put that to into reasoning I see.

Your point about flocks of people is spot on! I saw that for many years and I saw product(s) of those things... And it was not pretty.

[Sarajevo071]

Afghanistan flooded by Christian missionaries

After the US and NATO invasion of Afghanistan, a wave of Christian missionaries poured to the country.

In support of Bush's words about the so-called "war on terrorism" - is in fact a war against Islam, missionaries and the occupation troops operate synchronously and fully coordinate their actions.

The purpose of the troops is destruction, physical violence, provoking poverty, hunger, devastation.

The purpose of missionaries is recruitment of poor and strangulated by massive violence, hunger and devastation Muslims to Christianity.

The Afghan puppet ulema (scholars) warned West-backed puppet president Hamid Karzai over growing Christian proselytizing by foreign aid groups in Afghanistan.
...
http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2008/01/10/9241.shtml


Afghan Clerics Warn Karzai Against Missionaries

Afghanistan’s Islamic council has told President Hamid Karzai to stop foreign aid groups from converting local people to Christianity and has demanded the reintroduction of public executions.

The council, an influential group that lacks binding authority, is made up of the Islamic clergy and ulema, or religious scholars, from various parts of Afghanistan. It made the warning in a statement Friday during a meeting with Mr. Karzai.

The ulema have always played a crucial role in Afghanistan and have been behind several revolts against past governments.

The council said it was concerned about the activities of some “missionary and atheistic” groups, saying that the actions were “against Islamic Shariah, the Constitution, and political stability,” according to a copy of the statement. “If not prevented, God forbid, catastrophe will emerge, which will not only destabilize the country, but the region and the world.”
...
http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-31259720080105


Christian Missionaries Battle For Hearts and Minds in Iraq
...
When he arrived, however, Chang concluded his mission should be more humanitarian than religious. After speaking with Iraqis, he saw how closely people associated colonialism with missionaries, and he learned how angry some people were about comments Christian leaders in the United States had made about Islam and violence. Chang didn't want to appear to insult his new friends by aggressively proselytizing.

...
Carlos Cardoza-Orlandi, associate professor of world Christianity at the Columbia Theological Seminary in Atlanta, said some missionaries compound the tensions in Iraq because they enter with a sense of "victory and triumph."

"They come with here's an opportunity for Christianity to grow and because the U.S. is the occupier and the U.S. is a Christian country. That's pure ignorance," Orlandi said.

"The word 'missionary' carries with it a lot of baggage. It's tainted with notions of Western hegemony and the seeming need to establish political, economic and religious domination," said Jonathan Bonk, editor of the International Bulletin of Missionary Research, which publishes scholarly articles on the topic.

...
Zainab Badran, 36, a pharmacist, said one missionary gave him a Bible.

Although he has no intention of converting from Islam to Christianity, he read it out of curiosity and said it was nice to learn about other religions. He believes Christian aid workers should be more open about their aims.

"I can hear their thoughts and this won't harm me," he said. "I can accept them or refuse."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30001-2004May15.html

[RTK]

http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2008/01/10/9241.shtml


http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-31259720080105


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30001-2004May15.html

I don't doubt this; hell I've seen them. But I can say, catagorically, the Christian Ministries are not part of a larger Scheme of Maneuver. We can't even get tank parts to the right place at the right time. The fact that we could get Billy Bob and his Bible to the right place after heavy kinetics is amusing to me.

[marct]

Hi RTK,


I don't doubt this; hell I've seen them. But I can say, catagorically, the Christian Ministries are not part of a larger Scheme of Maneuver. We can't even get tank parts to the right place at the right time. The fact that we could get Billy Bob and his Bible to the right place after heavy kinetics is amusing to me.

"Amusing" isn't exactly the word I would choose :wry:! I don't believe that the Christian missionaries are part of a larger maneuver plan; some appear to have gone in for humanitarian reasons, which I have no problems with. The ones who have gone in, on the other hand, with a "mission to convert" should be, IMO, charged with interfering in the mission. I keep thinking back to the effects of one particular cult leader who stirred up all sorts of trouble in the Southern Sudan with his outrageous actions and promises....

Sarajevo, you are absolutely correct in pointing out the problems these people can, and in a number of cases, are causing. As I said, I have no problems with the ones on a humanitarian mission - their actions speak for themselves. The ones who pull the "convert and you'll eat" type of scenario, OTOH, should be dealt with severely.

You know, RTK's right; it's not a conspiracy, it's a problem with "free riders" - people who take advantage of a situation that they contributed nothing to.

[RTK]

Hi RTK,



"Amusing" isn't exactly the word I would choose :wry:! I don't believe that the Christian missionaries are part of a larger maneuver plan; some appear to have gone in for humanitarian reasons, which I have no problems with. The ones who have gone in, on the other hand, with a "mission to convert" should be, IMO, charged with interfering in the mission. I keep thinking back to the effects of one particular cult leader who stirred up all sorts of trouble in the Southern Sudan with his outrageous actions and promises....

Sarajevo, you are absolutely correct in pointing out the problems these people can, and in a number of cases, are causing. As I said, I have no problems with the ones on a humanitarian mission - their actions speak for themselves. The ones who pull the "convert and you'll eat" type of scenario, OTOH, should be dealt with severely.

You know, RTK's right; it's not a conspiracy, it's a problem with "free riders" - people who take advantage of a situation that they contributed nothing to.


That's why I like you, Marc. You point out the double entendres in my sarcasm.

I agree. Those who are in either country and present the "I'll give you food if you follow Christ" argument need their heads examined.

I remember the kid in Tal Afar Cavguy was talking about. I did not give him that shirt.

[marct]

Hi RTK,


I agree. Those who are in either country and present the "I'll give you food if you follow Christ" argument need their heads examined.

Preferably with a cricket bat at high velocity :D! Okay, my prejudice is really showing here, but that type of sleazy action really makes my blood boil. Then again, I've had run-ins with this type of slug too many times and had to deal with the aftermath of their "Christian charity". They are a disgrace to their religion and have done more to damage Christianity than any other group I can think of.

Sorry, this is a real soap-box issue for me. I spent about 4 years counselling kids whose lives had been destroyed by people like this, and dealing with suicidal teens who have been beaten and abused in the name of "religion" and "morality" still makes my blood boil even now :mad:.

[/rant}

Marc

[Tom Odom]

Hi RTK,



Preferably with a cricket bat at high velocity :D! Okay, my prejudice is really showing here, but that type of sleazy action really makes my blood boil. Then again, I've had run-ins with this type of slug too many times and had to deal with the aftermath of their "Christian charity". They are a disgrace to their religion and have done more to damage Christianity than any other group I can think of.

Sorry, this is a real soap-box issue for me. I spent about 4 years counselling kids whose lives had been destroyed by people like this, and dealing with suicidal teens who have been beaten and abused in the name of "religion" and "morality" still makes my blood boil even now :mad:.

[/rant}

Marc

As a veteran observer of 700 Club shenanigans in Lebanon and the Congo, the other victims in this are those who get bamboozled into supporting this stuff as a passport to the promised land. I feel much the same about the Christian Children's Orphonage operation as shown on TV by the well-fed grandpa figure holding up the underpriveleged child. We had a CC orphanage in southern Lebanon; they were warned repeatedly to leave and did not. Their director went home the hard way.

[marct]

Hi Tom,


As a veteran observer of 700 Club shenanigans in Lebanon and the Congo, the other victims in this are those who get bamboozled into supporting this stuff as a passport to the promised land.

Too true! I remember one friend of mine who got caught up in one of the sleazier Christian cults and, to his sorrow, learned the hard way that the cult leader was only out to aggrandize himself. The damage to his psyche was considerable and his anger at both himself and the people who conned him was, at times, scary to behold. 'twas a good thing he liked beer and Irish songs since I could get him to relieve his pent-up emotions by getting drink and singing :D. Re-building his faith, OTOH, was not so simple.

[Ron Humphrey]

It would seem to me that Faith in and of itself is very much a personal decision and as such faith really should stand on it's own without need for major input from outside interests. That said I think it important that any group be willing to help others in need when it comes to food, shelter, clothes, and economic / educational opportunities for further growth over time.

I will agree with most here that those who take this aid to the next level in requiring something in return or threatening something (or else) very quickly outstay their welcome. I believe for me the most important thing is that all those who choose to spread their faith in such a manner rather than letting their actions, and lives speak for them should be accountable to this standard.

Any one care to go over the number of religiously oriented groups who actively work under this premise right now. Pluralistic societies should at their baseline allow for those within them to know the truth (for themselves) and live to lead by example. The part which really boggles me is which societies feel it is so important to disallow even exposure to other faiths for fear of (??)

If you feel you must defend your faith by forcing it on others then I would say you may be missing some of the necessary elements of belief for yourself.

After all doesn't matter if your of Christian, Jewish, or Islamic faiths I think they all still purport that we were given the ability to choose between right and wrong from day one.

[Sarajevo071]

Sarajevo, you are absolutely correct in pointing out the problems these people can, and in a number of cases, are causing. As I said, I have no problems with the ones on a humanitarian mission - their actions speak for themselves. The ones who pull the "convert and you'll eat" type of scenario, OTOH, should be dealt with severely.

You know, RTK's right; it's not a conspiracy, it's a problem with "free riders" - people who take advantage of a situation that they contributed nothing to.
I never said that I see this like the organized US/Christian conspiracy but I do agree that there are groups who is solely purpose to go there and preach... Nothing else. And they use food like weapon to convert poor and hungry. That's sad. I was on one end of that and I know feeling of anger after it.

I posted those articles so one can see different stories and reactions on actions like that.

[Sarajevo071]

After all doesn't matter if your of Christian, Jewish, or Islamic faiths I think they all still purport that we were given the ability to choose between right and wrong from day one.

:) :)

[selil]

What does this say about military chaplaincy programs working with foreign populations instead of just with military members?

[RTK]

What does this say about military chaplaincy programs working with foreign populations instead of just with military members?

Not much, so long as the chaplain knows the bounds of his constituancy.

[Adam L]

I didn't talk about revenge either but since you mention, sure I can put that to into reasoning I see.

Your point about flocks of people is spot on! I saw that for many years and I saw product(s) of those things... And it was not pretty.

At one point you referred to "revenge groups" not being necessary. Sorry if I read too much into that.

Adam L

[Tom Odom]

Not much, so long as the chaplain knows the bounds of his constituancy.

Well at the risk of bucking the current of the day, I remain very sceptical of this as an intiative for reasons on both sides of the interactive equation.

I understand that it has worked well at least according to those who support it; I have however talked to chaplains who are not as comfortable with it.

But hey, that's me :wry:

Tom

[Ken White]

and me..........

[selil]

Aye me too!

[marct]

but I have no problems as long as they are doing humanitarian work or trying to reduce conflict. Then again, we've had this discussion before :D.