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DDilegge
12-20-2005, 10:15 PM
20 Dec. Voice of America - Germany Frees Convicted TWA Hijacker (http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-12-20-voa70.cfm).


Germany has freed a Lebanese man who was sentenced to life in prison for hijacking an American airliner and killing a U.S. Navy diver 20 years ago.

German justice officials confirmed Tuesday that Mohammed Ali Hamadi was released on parole after a routine review of his case, and they say he already has left Germany.

Sources in Lebanon say Hamadi, a member of the Hezbollah militant group, has returned to Beirut, the focal point of the 1985 hijacking.

Hamadi was convicted in the hijacking of a TWA airliner that took off from Athens in 1985. U.S. Navy diver Robert Stethem, a passenger on the plane, was killed while the commandeered jet was on the ground in Beirut.

The German Foreign Ministry has denied any link between Hamadi's parole and the recent release of a German hostage in Iraq.

Lest we forget...


September 5, 2001
Volker Christian Rath
Staatsanwaltschaft bei dem landgericht
Frankfurt Main
GERMANY

Dear Mr. Rath:

It has come to our attention that Mohammad Hamadei has recently had a parole hearing and that his parole is under consideration. Really? This is shocking to our family. We believed that he was sentenced to life in prison and expected him to serve it in full. This is unconscionable.

As mother and father of slain United States Diver, Robert D. Stethem, killed at the hands of Mohamadi Ali Hamadi and Hasan 'Izz-a l-Din aboard TWA Flight 847 in June of 1985, and on behalf of Robert's siblings, I want to express our grave concern to you that his release is even being considered after serving just 15 years of a life sentence. As you know, in the United States, prosecution of Mohammed Ali Hamadei would have given him the death penalty. In the United States a life sentence for Hamadei would also have warranted him a life sentence without parole. Because he was prosecuted in the Republic of Germany, his fate is out of the American justice system's hands.

Our family spent a year in Germany attending the trial for this criminal, which robbed us of sharing the life of our children and very young grandchildren. We thought the German justice system awarded him a just sentence. To release him at this time would undo all that your justice system so carefully set forth in their opinion and declslon.

I would like to quote a few lines from that opinion:

The court is thus convinced that the accused, were he to be set free today or tomorrow, would re-engage as a Hizbullah fighter. Page 119 of the opinion

It is also not conceivable that prison officials can resocialize the accused and eliminate his violence-based conceptual framework. Even . . . the observation of the accused over many months leads to a specific prediction that even in prison he will remain impenetrable and will remain fixed in his ideological-religious views and will not be susceptible to a change in the sense of living a violent-free life. Furthermore, it can be expected that prison will be experienced by the accused as an unjustified, but God-willed test of patience and that the accused will hope to achieve his freedom through further appeals. This can only mean that there is no real chance of reintegrating the accused into society. There are therefore no reasons to neglect the goals of atonement and consideration of the safety of the general public because of any potential of the accused reintegrating into society. Page 119 of the opinion

Our son was brutally beaten for many hours, shot in the head point blank, and thrown on the Beirut Airport tarmac. He died a violent death at the hands of the hijackers, who did not know this young man, and who showed no mercy when it came to killing him. For this alone, he deserves to suffer prison confinement for the rest of his natural life! After the hijacking, Hamadei and his accomplices stayed in West Beirut, dominated by the Shiite militia, and finally stayed in Iran, protected by the Foreign Ministry of Iran. This too, is recorded in the opinion on page 109.

Now, I will give further reasons that will convince any sane individual how wrong it would be to release this criminal. He belongs to a family that has been a part of the Hizbollah organization for many years. His older brother, Abd al-Hadi Hamadei is today assigned a top security position in the Hezbollah organization. I would expect if Hamadei were released from prison, he would be sent to Lebanon, his homeland. Hamadei's education is limited, so the first place he would go, would more than likely be with his older brother who is a top security person in the movement of the Hezbollah organization.

When Hamadei was arrested, he was in possession of very volatile explosives. Those explosives were destined to do harm and destruction to further the terrorism that already plagued the cities in Europe. I would expect that money and power would reign once more and because Hamadei has no future, would once again seek out his brother's Hezbollah organization, since that organization does employ and pay salary to each member.

Hamadei had no feeling for the rights of others, especially for Americans and those who associated with the Americans. His hatred for Americans could only have worsened during his years of imprisonment and to allow his freedom puts all public citizens at risk.

Our family wants justice in this case. While the American Department of Justice is still actively seeking the apprehension of the other terrorists involved in the TWA flight 847 hijacking, it would be a travesty of justice to have Mohammed Ali Hamadei released. Since Lebanon has not cooperated in the capture of Hamadei's accomplices, it shows that terrorism and all the terrorism training is tolerated within the borders of Lebanon. Surely his release would guarantee that once again the terrorists have won out!

Please, before releasing Mohammed Ali Hamadei, read in full the opinion and decision by the Court that sentenced Hamadei to life in prison.

Sincerely, Richard and Patricia L. Stethem
P.O. Box 331 Port Tobacco, MD 20677

Bill Moore
12-21-2005, 06:21 AM
Don't take it to the bank yet, but Debka.com is reporting that Germany released Hammadi in exchange for the German Hostage being held in Iraq who was released recently. If true, and it probably is, then not surprisingly this draws a clear connection between some of the insurgents/terrorists in Iraq and the Hizballah in Lebanon. I'm sure this story will get more interesting in time. Germany recently completed a very close election (the parties are still struggling to build popular support), and then there are rumors that this move positioned the new German head of intelligence to be more influencial in the Middle East etc. Bad news for now, but there may be a silver lining in this story yet, we'll see in a few days.

DDilegge
12-22-2005, 09:04 AM
Diver's Killer Set Free in Lebanon (http://www.washtimes.com/world/20051222-121538-4330r.htm) (Wash. Times).


U.S. officials yesterday said the killer of a U.S. Navy diver had been released from "temporary custody" in Lebanon but refused to rule out bringing him to the United States by force.

The Lebanese government criticized Washington's request to hand over Mohammad Ali Hamadi, saying the militant already had served a prison sentence for the 1985 murder of Robert Dean Stethem of Waldorf, Md.

Hamadi, a member of the Hezbollah guerrilla group, was taken into custody upon returning to Lebanon after his release from a German prison Thursday. He had served 18 years for hijacking a TWA plane to Beirut and fatally shooting Petty Officer 2nd Class Stethem, who was 23 when he was killed.

"What I can assure anybody who's listening, including Mr. Hamadi, is that we will track him down, we will find him, and we will bring him to justice in the United States for what he's done," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

A Legacy of Courage (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/21/AR2005122102088.html) (Wash. Post Editorial).


This story is about others, mainly a young man from our own area named Robert Dean Stethem. He was a Navy diver and the victim of that murder, committed in the course of a torturously long airplane hijacking carried out by members of Hezbollah in 1985. Mr. Stethem, who came from Waldorf, was beaten savagely aboard the plane while it sat on a runway in Beirut. Afterward, a 16-year-old girl from Australia, Ruth Henderson, talked quietly with the sailor, seeking to comfort him. "He said how it may be better that he died," she testified later in a German court. "He believed that someone would die on the plane, someone from the Navy men [there were five other divers on the plane], and he said that because he was the only one who wasn't married, that he should be the one to die. He spoke with a clear mind. . . . He didn't believe that all of us could get out alive. He felt it was fair that he dies so that the rest of us could live." Mr. Stethem was killed not long afterward.

Stethem was probably the bravest young man I have ever seen in my life," said John L. Testrake, captain of the hijacked TWA Flight 847. Mr. Testrake himself won praise for his coolness during the 17-day ordeal, in which the plane was directed back and forth across the Mediterranean a number of times. Another hero of the flight, one whose essential humanity and courage undoubtedly prevented additional bloodshed, was Ulrike Derickson, a flight attendant who tried to stop the abuse of Mr. Stethem and who intervened to prevent the killing of a second Navy diver. She sought to calm the hijackers when they became agitated and to protect the passengers in whatever ways she could.

Like Mr. Stethem, they are gone now. Mr. Testrake died in 1996 and Ms. Derickson just this year. In the season of life, names such as these should live.

SWJED
01-10-2006, 08:55 AM
Date: January 8, 2006 4:15:57 PM PST

To: president@whitehouse.gov

Cc: vicepresident@whitehouse.gov

Subject: ROBERT DEAN STETHEM

Mr. President,

I would like to provide you with an explanation as to why Muhammed Ali Hammadi's recent release by Germany, and your Administration's lack of any attempt to prevent it, is so upsetting to our family and to Americans everywhere. I am not writing you out of grief or anger but out of a hope that his example will inspire you to follow act on your own words and the dictates of your conscious in this War on Terror.

Robert Dean Stethem was singled out, beaten beyond recognition and tortured in order to make him scream into a transmitter (so that the tower would send a fuel truck). Not a cry was heard to come from him, despite the brutal beating he endured. Instead he chose to remain silent and endure the beatings because he knew that the only way a rescue attempt could be conducted by U.S. forces was if the aircraft remained on the ground.

After Robert was beaten and tortured and bleeding from puncture wounds all over his body, he was placed next to a 16-year old Australian girl. As bad as Robert was beaten, he had the courage and strength to comfort and console her. He told her that, "She would be okay and that she would get out of here alive." When she tried to return the comfort, he said, "No, I don't think so. I am the only one in my group that is not married and some of the guys have children, too." Some time later, Robert was again taken up to the cockpit and tortured in order to get the fuel. But it didn't work, he would not give in to them.

One of the hijackers, Muhammed Ali Hammadi, was so enraged that he dragged Robert to the door, pulled a trigger and shot Robert in the head. Then he dumped Robert's body onto the tarmac. While Robert was being dragged to the door, he knew that all he had to do in order to live was to cry into that transmitter, but he wouldn't do it. He would not give in to the demands of the terrorists. He would not allow the honor and dignity of America to be intimidated by the fear and pain that Hammadi and terrorists everywhere represent. Robert sacrificed his life in order to protect our liberty and defend our way of life.

You have rightly said, "Whether we bring our enemies to justice, or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done." You have truly said that "We are in a fight for our principles, and our first responsibility is to live by them." Robert lived by them. Robert also died by them. The motto of the USS SSTETHEM (DDG-63), named in Robert's honor, is "Steadfast and Courageous." I hope that his example, and the example of other heroes like him can inspire you to understand why allowing Germany to release Hammadi was a wrong. Justice was not done, Robert was not honored and Americans are not safer by allowing Hammadi to return to Lebanon and Hezbollah.

You know this, we know this and the American people know this.

The Stethem family

marct
01-31-2007, 03:50 PM
Another story from CBC.ca. We really don't need this type of operation going on...


Berlin issues warrants for 13 CIA agents in German kidnapping
Last Updated: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 | 5:51 AM ET
The Associated Press

Arrest warrants have been issued for 13 people in connection with the alleged CIA-orchestrated kidnapping of a German citizen, a Munich prosecutor said Wednesday.

Prosecutor Christian Schmidt-Sommerfeld said the warrants were issued in the past few days. He did not say for whom the warrants were issued, but indicated a statement would be issued later Wednesday.

Munich prosecutors have previously said that they had received from Spanish investigators the names of several U.S. secret agents believed to be involved in the kidnapping of Khaled al-Masri, a German citizen of Lebanese descent.

Al-Masri says he was abducted in December 2003 at the Serbian-Macedonia border and flown by the CIA to a detention centre in Kabul, Afghanistan, where he was abused. Al-Masri says he was released in Albania in May 2004 after the CIA discovered they had the wrong person.

More... (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/01/31/cia-kidnapping-070131.html)

RTK
01-31-2007, 04:22 PM
Another story from CBC.ca. We really don't need this type of operation going on...

Throw this into the catagory of "Bad PR." I completely concur with Marc is that its stories like this that do very little for the greater common good. If true, it's a damning statement about the state of the intel community.

tequila
01-31-2007, 04:32 PM
That el-Masri was released (apparently dumped off on some street in Albania, oddly) and that Chancellor Merkel feels comfortable stating that Condoleeza Rice told her that el-Masri was innocent should indicate that the man was obviously not someone who deserved to be taken to Bagram and beaten the crap out of.

Now whether or not CIA agents should be subject to arrest for this is another story. Frankly I am amazed that there is not some kind of program to make amends and hush money to people we have snatched up in error (see also this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar)). What happens instead is that these folks sue in righteous outrage and expose lots of things that the U.S. would rather not see come to light.

Stan
01-31-2007, 04:37 PM
Gentlemen, It gets worse.
Jane Fonda's little party raiser in DC is storming the Baltic press.
She even managed to keep her banner with their website in plain view. Go figure. The bad part is on their site.

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/


A solid majority of people in this country oppose the Iraq War. Imagine if, instead of sitting on the sidelines, all these millions joined the movement to bring the troops home. It's up to all of us to make the peace movement visible in our communities every day and to inspire others to get involved.

Together with this paragraph is a link for the attached T-shirt. Yep, for 20.00 bucks you get this T from "Good Storm dot com" :wry:

What a bunch of Bravo Sierra !

Regards, Stan

120mm
02-01-2007, 08:28 AM
This is a disturbing trend: European nations or their citizens suing or charging with crimes folks who make "mistakes" (or not) in the prosecution of the "War on Terror."

Innocents are killed, detained or otherwise in war. There needs to be a mechanism to deal with this.

Guilty folks are also detained and later released, and being detained and released shouldn't be financially lucrative, whatever the compensation scheme.

I served as an Interrogator for a few years, and nowhere in my training was it considered "okay" to torture a subject. Are we just throwing around the word "torture" liberally here, or are there really CIA guys with cattle prods out there torturing people? Either scenario is unacceptable, by my view.

Stan
02-01-2007, 09:20 AM
In yesterday's press:
http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/314720
Here's a brief translation (Slapout's still studying his Estonian :) :


The Finnish media quoted a Human Rights Watch report, which indicated that somewhere in the beginning of 2003, aircraft N313P was destined for Pärnu, Estonia.

Pärnu is Estonia's Summer resort town, 170 clicks south of the capital.


Estonia's Foreign Ministry Public Affairs Officer, referring to the US aircraft landing in Pärnu, replied "this was a USA/Estonian military and security police exercise, and the content of this cooperation is protected by the "State Secrets Act". The government has already reported that no kidnapped persons have been brought into Estonia by aircraft."

tequila
02-01-2007, 10:21 AM
120mm, I think the main accusation in Maher Arar and Khaled el-Masri is that these men were kidnapped and then rendered to Syria and Afghanistan, respectively, where they both say they were tortured by foreign nationals for the CIA.

Not sure why you believe there should be no compensation. These men were innocent. They were summarily kidnapped, imprisoned for months at a time, and brutally tortured both mentally and physically, with no recourse to appeal or due process. Why should the government not compensate them for the government's error?

120mm
02-01-2007, 11:59 AM
I'm sorry you misunderstood my post. I never wanted to even imply that there should be no compensation.

Note that I said there needs to be a mechanism for this. That mechanism would need to include compensation for real loss of income, inconvenience and may even be punitive in nature (accounting for pain/suffering).

On the other hand, when we pick up a bad guy and then return him/her into the wild for whatever reason, we need to avoid rewarding them for "not being prosecutable just yet."

I think the phrase "kidnapped" is being thrown around pretty loosely, here, as well.

tequila
02-01-2007, 12:22 PM
I see --- so we are actually pretty much in total agreement about compensation, then.

I would not use the word "arrested" because these men were taken into a system that was explicitly extra-legal and were not accorded due process. Also, given the warrants issued in both Italy and Germany, it appears that the local and national authorities were not made aware (odd that this does not appear to have occurred in Canada, where the local authorities were complicit and have recently paid millions in compensation to Arar). "Detained" sounds, frankly, a bit too neutral given the ultimate fate of these and many other men. We did not take them to Syria for interrogation of the usual sort, for instance.

marct
02-01-2007, 02:31 PM
Hi 120mm,


Note that I said there needs to be a mechanism for this. That mechanism would need to include compensation for real loss of income, inconvenience and may even be punitive in nature (accounting for pain/suffering).

I think that this lack of a streamlined mechanism is one of the problems; lawsuits just don't, to my mind, cut it. Every time we see a lawsuit, it just creates too many problems by re-interpreting the legal situation. In the Arar case, I think a lawsuit was justified since the RCMP certain appear to have acted in a manner that was, and is, illegal. I would honestly like to see a much more clearcut mechanism for detention / investigation.


On the other hand, when we pick up a bad guy and then return him/her into the wild for whatever reason, we need to avoid rewarding them for "not being prosecutable just yet."

Yupper. I think that clearer legal guidelines would help immeasurably as well in making the decision to pick them up.


I think the phrase "kidnapped" is being thrown around pretty loosely, here, as well.

In the Arar case and in the el-Masri case, it is the correct legal terminology. Under existing Canadian law, Arar could have been quite legally picked up and detained for questioning for an indefinite period. This would not have been "kidnapping". Instead, the RCMP contacted the CIA and gt them to do the dirty work. What always bothered me about the Arar case was that the RCMP didn't have the guts to arrest him themselves. If they believed he was guilty, they should have investigated and arrested him. If they thought there was an imminent danger, they could have held him indefinitely. They didn't.


I would not use the word "arrested" because these men were taken into a system that was explicitly extra-legal and were not accorded due process. Also, given the warrants issued in both Italy and Germany, it appears that the local and national authorities were not made aware (odd that this does not appear to have occurred in Canada, where the local authorities were complicit and have recently paid millions in compensation to Arar). "Detained" sounds, frankly, a bit too neutral given the ultimate fate of these and many other men. We did not take them to Syria for interrogation of the usual sort, for instance.

I have to admit that a lot of my anger over these cases is based around the breach of law at the same time as we keep hearing rhetoric about the rule of law. Situations like this just serve to reduce overall social trust in government agencies. Sure, there are times when a government agent, LE, Intel, military, etc., will have to break the law in order to achieve their mission. This should end up as a situation where the law then comes under scrutiny as well as their actions; for example, arresting someone without proof and sweating them to stop a bomb plot. It's the legal concept of "immanent danger" that should be used to decide whether or not to breach the law, not convenience, and those breaches should be examined afterwards.

Marc

Tom Odom
02-01-2007, 04:25 PM
My fundamental concern is like Marc's but with a strategic self-interest:

If GWOT is COIN then the target is the global population. Short term benefits get overwhelmed by larger and longer lasting negative effects.

It is basic risk versus gain analysis.

Tom

goesh
02-01-2007, 04:36 PM
This sad turn of events only reflects the general state of affairs of Europe. From the Jerusalem Post came an interview with Prof. Bernard Lewis, a prominent islamic historian, who made the following comment taken from the Post article:

"...He dismissed Europe in a few sentences, a continent doomed to Islamist domination by dint of its own "self-abasement... in the name of political correctness and multiculturalism."

- that pretty much sums it up IMHO.

tequila
02-01-2007, 05:08 PM
I believe it pretty much sums up Bernard Lewis' level of hysteria and detachment from the real world.

This is a man who proclaimed that the proper solution to our Mesopotamian governance problem was to impose the brother of the King of Jordan as the new King of Iraq. (http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004230) I think that would have made for an interesting contest as to who would have dragged the sword-hacked corpse of King Hassan through the dust first --- the Mahdi Army, the Badr Brigades, or the Islamic Army in Iraq?

goesh
02-01-2007, 07:03 PM
seem collaberated with the thousands of burned cars in France and the drastic increase in assaults and the protection racket offenses in Nordic countries, Tequila. Some even say it is not safe to walk in any islamic enclave in most large European cities if one is not a true believer but who am I to challenge rumors of increasing violence amongst the ummah?

pcmfr
02-02-2007, 01:24 AM
My fundamental concern is like Marc's but with a strategic self-interest:

If GWOT is COIN then the target is the global population. Short term benefits get overwhelmed by larger and longer lasting negative effects.

It is basic risk versus gain analysis.

Tom

I think this is the most compelling argument against these types of activities, if in fact they are occurring. That said, if there is an immininent threat, and other countries aren't dealing with their own problems, I see a need for this type of rendition. There is a reason they call it "covert."

tequila
02-02-2007, 09:42 AM
Goesh,

I grew up in a part of Brooklyn that most NYPD cops will not venture into alone. Let's just say that when I saw the French "riots" on TV, I laughed pretty hard. Burning cars? Are you serious?

How many French people got killed in that riot, or even got their ass kicked? Let's just say it's a lot fewer than if certain types walked around my old neighborhood in the wee hours, or if my friends walked around other neighborhoods at similar hours. What's the homicide rate in France or the Netherlands? Come talk to me when it gets above the number of homicides in, oh, I don't know, Finland.

Sarajevo071
04-15-2007, 09:25 PM
A video showing a German army instructor telling one of his soldiers to envision African-Americans in the Bronx while firing his machine gun was broadcast Saturday on national television.

The video, coming after scandals involving photos of German soldiers posing with skulls in Afghanistan and the abuse of recruits by instructors, seemed likely to raise more questions about training practices in Germany's conscript army.
.....


The instructor tells the soldier, "You are in the Bronx. A black van is stopping in front of you. Three African-Americans are getting out and they are insulting your mother in the worst ways ... Act."

The soldier fires his machine gun several times and yells an obscenity several times in English. The instructor then tells the soldier to curse even louder.
.....

story link:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/04/14/germany.race.ap

video link:
http://www.nowpublic.com/video_of_racist_incident_at_german_army_barracks_a ppears_on_video_portal_1

tequila
04-16-2007, 09:35 AM
Listening to Germans saying "mother####er!" is just funny. :D

Let me just say I am shocked, shocked! to find racism in the armed forces.

Sarajevo071
04-16-2007, 10:46 AM
First time I heard that I didn't know am I going to laugh or cry!? :confused: :D I know US Military using derogative terms for arabs to train troops but for Germans to use Bronx "example" I am just puzzled where that came from!??

I guess, racism is never "funny" when turns against you...

tequila
04-16-2007, 11:01 AM
That's sort of what makes it bizarre - but I have no idea about racial politics in Germany or where it would come from.


I guess, racism is never "funny" when turns against you...

This is true. Lots of the Southerners who made fun of black or Hispanic or Asian recruits in the squadbay had the nerve to get butthurt over cracker incest jokes. Rather amusing in the end.

It would be great to have a non-racist population or military, but I doubt we will ever get there.

marct
04-16-2007, 12:32 PM
I think it's important to point out that there is a difference, albeit one that is glossed over by man commentators, between "stereotyping" and "racism". Racism implies a hierarchy of value between distinguishable groups and is based on a completely faulty understanding of both biology and social dynamics. If you dig a touch deeper, you will find that it is also based on Spencer's concept of "Survival of the Fittest" (yeah, that was Spencer, not Darwin) applied to a skewed, unilinear teleology.

Stereotyping on the other hand is a result of the way our brains have evolved and is a pro-survival trait. Stereotyping is the action of taking limited sensory input and reacting to it - it's not always right, but it does tend to be fast. Let me give you an example of why I say that stereotyping is "pro-survival". Imagine you are on the savanna and you see the top of one piece of grass moving against the wind. Are you going to rationally analyze it or are you going to react? If you rationally try to analyze it, you will probably end up being killed by the lion whose tail tip you mistook for a grass stem, while the other person who just ran will live to have kids.

Stereotyping may harden into racism once you start getting an inter-locking set of "rational" justifications for why the stereotypes are not only "valid" but "why" they are "true". This is a process some Sociologists call "crystallization" where perceptions "become" social "truths", and it's why so many people will say that "racism" is learned.

Let's bring this out of the lecture hall :D

Most people have difficulty killing other people (those that don't are usually called sociopaths). So, here's the problem - how do you get someone to kill someone else in an organized fashion, but not indiscriminately? One way to do this is to "train" them such that they will engage an opponent only when they receive certain stereotypical sensory input. In an ongoing fight, this stereotypical sensory input starts to get crystallized into names - the "muj", the "geek", the "Hun". At other times, you end up picking a stereotype that already exists in the culture and is perceived as "dangerous" and use that. Since cultural stereotypes can come from almost any medium, I'm not at all surprised to hear about the German example. Anyone played any video games recently?

Marc

Sarajevo071
04-16-2007, 01:29 PM
I understand all that, especially about military “conditional mind”, but I am still finding damn funny when my friend tells me that she was called “sand niger” (she is muslim-american, living in Ohio) and that name calling coming from her - black co-worker!? One would expect at least black americans would be sensitive on “N” word…

Sarajevo071
04-16-2007, 01:30 PM
It would be great to have a non-racist population or military, but I doubt we will ever get there.

Sadly, I agree.

sullygoarmy
04-16-2007, 01:59 PM
My wife is German and her family lives in Nurnberg. I remember when I first me them, I told them that my father was born and raised in the bronx (1940s-1950s). They were shocked. Their version of the bronx was based on the movie "Fort Apache" and had no other visions of how that area looked like other than how it was portrayed in media venues in Germany. Years later I took my wife down into the Bronx to see where my Dad was born and worked as a NYPD officer there for 20 years. I wasn't anything like she had pictured.

Interesting observations on racism, media portrayal and cross-cultural understandings. I agree with Tequila. All we can do is try to educate our own people, our allies and approach other cultures with an open mind. We all know the hollywood portrayal of America is 1) no where accurate and 2) often the only cultural exposure other nations have to America.

Tom Odom
04-16-2007, 02:18 PM
I know US Military using derogative terms for arabs to train troops but for Germans to use Bronx "example" I am just puzzled where that came from!??

Sarajevo,

Just what would those terms be and where does this happen? I can tell you that as a matter of course, this sort of stuff gets stamped on pretty hard where I work. I would be quite curious to know what your source of information is.

Tom

tequila
04-16-2007, 03:22 PM
Hmmm ... let me just say that in USMC recruit training and at ITB, the NCOs who conduct the training do not practice much racial sensitivity towards people of Middle Eastern extraction or Muslim beliefs. That isn't their job, either.

sullygoarmy
04-16-2007, 03:26 PM
Here we go.

Sarajevo071
04-16-2007, 03:33 PM
Sarajevo,

Just what would those terms be and where does this happen? I can tell you that as a matter of course, this sort of stuff gets stamped on pretty hard where I work. I would be quite curious to know what your source of information is.

Tom

Hi, Tom

First “source” that came in my mind is “Ground Truth” DVD showing interviews of US military veterans where they explain they training and then frames from boot camp (Marines maybe!?) and drill sergeant yelling, “kill that haji! stab that towel-head!” and stuff like it. Plus number other videos and soldiers stories of time there and they training/conditioning before Iraq. You think all those massacres and abusing coming from nowhere!?

But, I believe marct explaned that way better and tequila helped.

tequila
04-16-2007, 03:43 PM
You think all those massacres and abusing coming from nowhere!?


Sarajevo - One should note that for all the "massacres" and "abusing", which there have been in Iraq and Afghanistan, there has been far less of this in almost any counterinsurgency war on record.

Massacres and abuse are not solely the result of racism or ethno/religious differences. Germans massacred Belgian civilians in WWI. Egyptians used chemical weapons and indiscriminate shelling and airpower on Yemenis in 1963. In a famous example, Syria used indiscriminate artillery on Hama to wipe out a nascent Muslim Brotherhood insurgency, while the civil war in Algeria speaks to the horrific brutality that can occur between men who speak the same language and worship the same God. The worst massacres in Iraq are taking place between Iraqis, and almost all Iraqis, including insurgents, prefer to be taken prisoner by Americans than by their own people because Americans are far less likely to abuse or kill them than Iraqi security forces.

Sarajevo071
04-16-2007, 04:01 PM
Sarajevo - One should note that for all the "massacres" and "abusing", which there have been in Iraq and Afghanistan, there has been far less of this in almost any counterinsurgency war on record.

Of course I agree with all that, tequila. In my time I use to carry hollow point in my breast pocket if I will run out of ammo or get surrounded or cut off… No one will cut me alive in pieces.

I am just (sadly) noting that side who should show better judgment and higher standards of behavior, more civilize if you will (if one can talk about being civil in war!?) failing to do so…

I mean, this is message U.S. trying to send around, right!? And, if someone (minority) does something evil and bad, don’t hide them or cover for them but use SAME rules and judgment you wish others to rule and judge you.

That would be my idea of better conduct.

Tom Odom
04-16-2007, 04:49 PM
Hi, Tom

First “source” that came in my mind is “Ground Truth” DVD showing interviews of US military veterans where they explain they training and then frames from boot camp (Marines maybe!?) and drill sergeant yelling, “kill that haji! stab that towel-head!” and stuff like it. Plus number other videos and soldiers stories of time there and they training/conditioning before Iraq. You think all those massacres and abusing coming from nowhere!?

But, I believe marct explaned that way better and tequila helped.


The use of the term, Hajji, was somewhat common, especially in the 2003-2004 time frame before we started to get our heads straight. Gratefully leaders like COL McMasterrs in 3rd ACR and others started to get a handle on it. I know we do not use it here or any of the other typical terms you cite. First of all as you no using Hajji as a diminutive is ultimately stupid because it identifies the user as at best ignorant--since Hajji is a title of respect.

Secondly as Marc states below, we have used this technique in larger conflicts. I have an WWII lessons learned pamphlet circa 1943 that said we must teach our soldiers to hate. Such training makes it easier to kill.

Most people have difficulty killing other people (those that don't are usually called sociopaths). So, here's the problem - how do you get someone to kill someone else in an organized fashion, but not indiscriminately? One way to do this is to "train" them such that they will engage an opponent only when they receive certain stereotypical sensory input. In an ongoing fight, this stereotypical sensory input starts to get crystallized into names - the "muj", the "geek", the "Hun". At other times, you end up picking a stereotype that already exists in the culture and is perceived as "dangerous" and use that. Since cultural stereotypes can come from almost any medium, I'm not at all surprised to hear about the German example. Anyone played any video games recently?

But in a COIN environment, that sort of training is ultimately counter-productive because if you are fighting to win the support and trust of the locals, you have to put a human face on those locals. Moreover you can ill-afford to dehumanize the enemy or worse demonize the enemy because ultimately, you hope to win him over too, through amnesty or similar programs.

Finally such terms are in fact self-destructive in the long run--I go back to my Rwanda experience in saying this--because once you successfuly dehumanize your opponent you are dehuminizing yourself at the same time. The Hutu extremists took this to the extreme; Dallaire talks about being in the presence of pure evil. Stan and I along with a female former peace corps member got to where we made black jokes about bodies. All of us by the end of Goma would have welcomed a volcanic eruption--often promised never delivered--as a final solution to the refugee/killers. By my second month in Rwanda, I began to despise the killers in a way that left me in a slow boil anger. I pretty much stayed that way for the next year and a half and I paid for it when I got home.

Best

Tom

Rob Thornton
04-16-2007, 06:08 PM
One of the things I noticed when I started listening and thinking - was the use of the IA to jokingly use the term Ali-Baba when describing AIF activity. This was a hold over from young US soldiers looking for a word that would communicate a thought to Iraqis in 2003-2004 in order to collect information. Interestingly the word Ali-Baba was decreasing in favor of "Al havae" (bad spelling, but such are translations) which comes about as close as possible to terrorist in meaning. CFs working more closely with ISF have also picked up on this word, and Ali Baba is rarely heard anymore. Hajji - meaning among other things - one who has made the trip - is now used mostly in its proper context(s). Much of this has to do with soldiers and marines understanding more an more of the culture as they make multiple deployments, and the cultural training in the CTCs. I suspect if there is large scale residual use of deregatory terms, its by folks who made the initial 2003 (maybe 2004) deployments, but none since or the train up that accompanies them. Our soldiers are becoming culturally saavy, and astute. The only other people I've heard use deragatory terms were some of the people who never left the FOB or interacted with Iraqis (Arab, Kurdish, Turkoman, or other) as people.

marct
04-16-2007, 06:28 PM
Hi Tom,


But in a COIN environment, that sort of training is ultimately counter-productive because if you are fighting to win the support and trust of the locals, you have to put a human face on those locals. Moreover you can ill-afford to dehumanize the enemy or worse demonize the enemy because ultimately, you hope to win him over too, through amnesty or similar programs.

Exactly! What's even worse about it is that we can be 99.9% sure that it is going to keep happening since the process is part of our neurophysiology <sigh>. On the whole, "we" have gotten rather lazy when it comes to stereotyping, and this is a really good example of how we have gotten lazy.

Consider who we a "fighting" against. It's not "the locals", but the "insurgents" (another stereotype). What are we really fighting against? Actually, as that small unit leaders handbook points out so well, we are really fighting against a set of perceptions held by individuals rather than against a collection of individuals. The AO, in addition to be geographic, is also perceptual and in the minds of "the locals".

So, given this, why do we keep using words (the "ordinance" of perceptions) in a manner that supports the insurgents? That, reworded somewhat, was the essence of Jim Guirard's condemnation of the Western (mis)usage of Arabic terminology (see the SWJ Blog (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/03/words-have-meaning/) for an intro on this). One of the things I really like about Jim's points is that he gives us "categories" (words) to describe who we are fighting that already exist inside the cultural matrix of the "perceptual battlespace" (i.e. the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqi in the street).

So, given this, why do we hear terms like "muj"? The slang comes from "mujahadeen" and denegrates the entirety of Islam. Why not cal them, in a diminutive, stereotype fashion as "irhabi"? That already has the semantic connotations in the Iraqi mind of "evil", "piece of sierra", etc. Calling them this, since we can be positive that slang diminutives will be used, has one added benefit - a local may shift from being a "irhabi" back to being a "true muslim".


Finally such terms are in fact self-destructive in the long run.... By my second month in Rwanda, I began to despise the killers in a way that left me in a slow boil anger. I pretty much stayed that way for the next year and a half and I paid for it when I got home.

Too true, Tom. In some ways, the "ideal" mindset for dealing with combat was described by Musashi in the Book of Five Rings. Unfortunately, that thype of mindset requires so many precursors and skills to achieve that are a very low priority in the West that we are unlikely to be able to properly achieve them at the general, social level <sigh - No Dave, I'm not angling for a new emoticon :D).

In all honesty, Tom, the corrosive effect of activating a hate-filled stereotype based on actions rather than phenotype is, probably, less than the other type, but it is still there. What is missing, at the general social level, is the psychological (spiritual?) technologies for dealing with those effects. A long time ago, I spent a number of years counseling street kids - I've seen the effects and how the social system doesn't know how to deal with them.

Marc

Rob Thornton
04-16-2007, 06:31 PM
"irhabi"? That already has the semantic connotations in the Iraqi mind of "evil", "piece of sierra", etc.

Marc, thanks - that's the spelling I was looking for:)

marct
04-16-2007, 06:33 PM
Marc, thanks - that's the spelling I was looking for:)

No worries, Rob. So, are you still in Mossul?

Marc

goesh
04-17-2007, 02:23 AM
Distance, high tech killing doesn't require visceral fear and loathing that can only be attached to those wanting you dead first and God knows we love our technology. The clinical is the antithesis of the emotive. Adrenalin jolts, partial paralysis, tunnel vision, acid reflux, shaking, slow motion perception of real time and blurred auditory reception precede instinctive action based on fight or flight instincts. These psychic jolts as I call them can't be overcome by cultural awareness and sensitivity. The Clinical/analytical can't sharpen the emotive to prep the psyche for what has to be done and it never can. So on the one hand you have to condition young minds to kill, on the other they need to be culturally sensitive. I think cultural relativism has no real place in Army/Marine boot camp but must come later. The precepts of COIN put the individual Marine/Soldier more on a one-to-one basis with the indigenous people and that alone dimishes stereotypes and negative perceptions of them simply as human beings better than any seminar can. Certainly the onus of this need must bear significantly heavier on the Officer Corps than the enlisted ranks.I've been watching that PBS show about Iraq and already 2 years ago the necessity of interacting with humans as humans was being put in play, yet in the course of an ambush videoed, someone yelled "####" and you could tell that was the word being used and it got bleeped out. What a hoot! Here the Public is supposed to be getting the real deal, yet they are denied a full plate. It reminds me of the firing of Don Imus in which it is now acclaimed that cultural harm to Black people has taken a big hit, yet nothing is being done about the denigrating rap music and other cultural things whose message and impact is 100 times that of Imus. I think this same analogy can be applied in attempting to sensitize reactive instinct that must be fast and brutal. In short, one should not proclaim too much success in this endeavor but certainly progress can be expected and demanded. Lastly, Sarajevo you should realize that the concerns you expressed have been well anticipated already and mechanisms put in place for correction and improvement a long time ago already.

bismark17
04-17-2007, 05:46 AM
You can almost hear the strains of, Ich Hatt Einen Kameraden, or Deutschland Uber Alles while watching that video....:eek:

tequila
04-17-2007, 09:19 AM
I suspect if there is large scale residual use of deregatory terms, its by folks who made the initial 2003 (maybe 2004) deployments, but none since or the train up that accompanies them. Our soldiers are becoming culturally saavy, and astute. The only other people I've heard use deragatory terms were some of the people who never left the FOB or interacted with Iraqis (Arab, Kurdish, Turkoman, or other) as people.

I'll note that this may be the case for some, but many Marine veterans I know who have just returned from a third deployment had some rather, shall we say, insensitive things to say about Iraqis. To be clear, these are guys who have lost friends over there.

This is, of course, not everyone.

Stan
04-17-2007, 12:39 PM
Hmmm, let's go back a few years. George however was never exposed to PC :D

"We want to get the hell over there. The quicker we clean up this Goddamned mess, the quicker we can take a little jaunt against the purple pissing Japs and clean out their nest, too. Before the Goddamned Marines get all of the credit."
- General George S. Patton, Jr
(addressing to his troops before Operation Overlord, June 5, 1944)

Tom Odom
04-17-2007, 01:55 PM
Hate Your Enemy! “Our men do not ordinarily hate. They must hate. They are better soldiers when they hate. They must not fraternize with prisoners-must not give them cigarettes and foodthe moment they are taken. Hate can be taught men by meticulous example. The Rangers are so taught.”

It was a different time and it most certainly was a very different war...

Tom

Surferbeetle
01-26-2008, 08:14 PM
All,

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zietung is reporting that Spain has captured some 14 Al Qaida types planning strikes in Germany & Spain http://www.faz.net/s/RubDDBDABB9457A437BAA85A49C26FB23A0/Doc~E49DDABEF5FE34FD78DA1415347783DD9~ATpl~Ecommon ~Scontent.html

Spiegel is carrying the same story

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/

FAZ and Spiegel are referencing El Pais but so far I have had no joy searching their website http://www.elpais.com/archivo/buscando.html

IHT, BBC, and Guardian had nothing on this topic at this time...

This website is reporting 10 individuals were planning suicide attacks against public trains in Barcelona. Three were identified as suicide bombers: Mohamed Shoaib, Mehmooh Khalib and Imran Cheema

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/338878/0/islamistas/terroristas/terrorismo/

davidbfpo
01-26-2008, 10:43 PM
Some are not convinced:

Under the title 'Spain doubts alleged terror cell's plan' http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080125/ap_on_re_eu/spain_terror_arrests

Compared to a CBS report that treats the plot seriously:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/25/eveningnews/main3754062.shtml?source=RSSattr=World_3754062

All very odd.

davidbfpo

davidbfpo
01-27-2008, 12:02 AM
Just found on Reuters this story:

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL2650359520080126?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=22&sp=true

Based on an informant's evidence and four of those arrested were released for lack of evidence.

davidbfpo

Mike in Hilo
01-27-2008, 01:38 AM
Your Spiegel link (scroll down) has another, unrelated, interesting brief item--George (PFLP) Habash dead in Amman of a heart attack...

Cheers,
Mike.

davidbfpo
02-10-2008, 09:39 PM
On this link: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/10/europe/spain.php

More reporting on the alleged plot and the role of a French informant. All very murky and why all the revelations to the press? Read and draw your own conclusions.

davidbfpo

Fuchs
05-30-2008, 09:41 AM
I know that some unrest exists in the English-speaking world on this topic, so I'd like to provide some bachkground. If really necessary, I could add the references for much of this.

I don't want to argue, but to inform as well as possible.


# War on terror in general

Germans don't feel really threatened by terrorists. Our secretary for internal security pushed some law changes to fight terrorism better (much like his predecessor), but that was regarded with a lot of skepticism (as the state becomes probably too powerful) and he didn't do much in the past months anymore. Most of his new anti-terror methods are regarded as ineffective anyway. His reputation among young citizens (about 14-35) seems to be an unparalleled disaster, I know lots of despising jokes and images.

# Anti-terror laws

We still have some legacy laws from the anti-RAF years, and were rather surprised that some politicians deemed it necessary to add additional methods of fighting terrorists at home.

# War on extreme Islam in general

Gates mentioned this, but Germans don't feel like at war with extreme Islam in general. We didn't declare such a war and are not aware of such a war going on against us.

# Terror vs. Germans

Is considered as marginal threat. We seem to care more about smoking in pubs or not, for example.
We had some terror victims in 9/11, some in Tunisia IIRC in 2002, but not much else. AQ sometime declared us as their foe due to our involvement in Afghanistan, so far without significant consequences.

# Spoiled terror attacks

Our executive was generally successful at spoiling some AQ projects, but none of these was grand scale anyway.

# Afghanistan ISAF

Huge disapprovement in the population (consistently more than 50% want to withdraw in polls). Our previous SecDef asserted that Germany is to be defended in Afghanistan, but few seem to buy into this theory. Our casualties are sporadic (and initially in great part the result of terrible equipment...we had some KIA/WIA in a bus!).

# Afghanistan OEF

Limited to 100 special forces, this mission is even mroe rejected than ISAF. It's not being much in the focus, though. Few news. Most don't feel like Germany is involved in a combat mission in Afghanistan.
That's probably the planned result of public relations, as up to 4/5th of the population reject the idea of Bundeswehr combat mission in Afghanistan.

The overall opinion on the relevance of the Afghanistan civil war for our national security seems to be very low.

# Other missions (like patrols in front of Lebanon, Somalia)

Mostly ignored, few news, imho not considered as vital most of the time.
One apparently common rumor is that especially the Schröder government used UN expeditions with German participation to buy goodwill for a permanent German UNSC seat. This plan (the plan existed, whether the method description si accurate is debatable) seems to have been cancelled as unrealistic.

# Pro-Americanism, Anti-Americanism, Contra-Americanism

Hatred for the USA is really rare, but its foreign policy is almost universally despised. Even internet forums on weapons which are full of weapon freaks and soldiers tend to be very critical about military actions.

# Pro/Anti War

War is generally considered as a very bad idea.
This needs to be seen in context. Historically, it turned out to be a very bad idea since four generations.
The world pushed us to become peaceful, we did on oru 2nd attempt.
The recent push for a more martial stance finds little understanding.
We cannot easily undo two generations worth of anti-war indoctrination, institutional changes and the like.

# Economic / political power

Political power is not considered as very desirable. We care much more about our economy.

# NATO

Is considered as the original collective defense treaty that it was. It's extremely rare that a German believes in NATO as a club for collective expeditions.
We're aware that article 5 was declared active in 2001, but seriously - nobody seemed to have thought about sending troops to very distant places.
It was seen as a revive for NATO and a symbolic act of solidarity.

# Iraq

~ "We told you not to do it, but you didn't listen."
Germans usually don't see a connection between AQ and Iraq.

# Terror and military operations

The reasoning link between terrorism and military operations to prevent/retaliate terrorism is generally being considered as not very solid.

# Lobbyism

No real pro-war lobbyism seems to be known in public.
Our pro-Israel lobby is nto very powerful and keeps a low profile. It was weakened because prominent speakers died or had a horrible scandal (cocaine+ forced prostitutes+photo+assertion superior morality in public discussions) in the past years.
Pro-America lobbyism is mediocre at best, anti-America lobbyism is probably not really organized as such (at least not in credible institutions).
Our news media seems to be pro-America most of the time to others and overly critical of Israel/America to others.
Criticizing Israel is almost politically incorrect, but happens.

# Politicians and Israel/USA

Generally interested in strong friendships, but apparently still critical of their actions/non-cooperative on some issues.

# Ability to wage war

Seriously, give us a good reason and we'd fight fiercely. We jsut don't seem to be really motivated to wage war at the time.

# Political system

Every military operation outside of NATO (except visits, but including a single OECD or UN observer in a crisis country) requires approval of the parliament (~congress).
Our ruling coalition is composed of the two largest parties and can change the constitution on its own, but is almost at a political stalemate. One ruling party is rather anti-war (social democrats), although its former chancellor participated in the 1999 Kosovo air war (even the supposedly pacifist greens agreed then).
More common is in our history a coalition of one large and one small (liberal or green) party, but the rise of a fifth (left) party coplicated matters. A majority without participation of green or social democrats seems to be impossible in the next 10 years.

# Average German and particular German

We're heterogenous adn pluralistic, of course. You'll easily be able to find Germans who disagree on most if not all of this. I'm talking about poll results, policy, statements, personal perceptions. I'm talking about majorities/averages.

# Schröder government

Schröder is quite despised today for his marginal ethics and was quite inconsequential on the Iraq issue. Don't be confused by this. He's irrelevant right now.

# Right wing

The only relevant right wing is the CSU, which exists only in Bavaria and might lose power there soon. The outer right wing (neonazis) is quite irrelevant and utterly incompetent. We don't have an effective nationalism/patriotism political force.

---------------------

My own opinions inadvertedly influenced these descriptions, but you can imho consider it as 70-90% accurate description.

120mm
05-30-2008, 12:11 PM
I find your post "spot-on" in its entirety.

It roughly mirrors my experience living in Deutschland.

I also find the simultaneous beating of Germany for being militaristic and aggressive, in the past, and the beatings for not being militaristic and aggressive enough in the present/future as being cryptic.

I can see where the typical German would be confused about what America wants out of them....

Fuchs
05-30-2008, 01:02 PM
An addition might be appropriate:

# Muslims in Germany
Many people seem to consider Germany and othr parts of Europe as somehow infested by Muslim minorities who might weaken the nation's resolve.
Actually Turkish emigrants live in Germany (usually 1st to 3rd generation) in great numbers (few millions).
Many of them have a German passport.
Today, Turkish emigration to Germany is almost impossible if the Turk don#t marry Germans.

The Turks and German-Turks are no Arabs. They are partly Alevites (moderate Muslims) and msot of them come from rural, not highly developed regions of Turkey, being actually more conservative than modern Turkey at times (1st generation). The first generation is now approaching the retirement age and some of them might soon return to Turkey for a cheaper living.

The 3rd generation is not really Turkish anymore, but very often close to a stereotype that resembles the stereotype of Young black ghetto children.
Their education is on average inferior, their command of both German and Turkish often not satisfactory, they haven't been fully raised as German nor as Turk. Most of them don't appear to be prone to become terrorist.
In short: They want to have a black BMW series 3 car much more than some dozen virgins in paradise. Almost all have a German passport or are entitled to get one.

The real troublemakers are some non-EU citizens Imams from Turkey without knowledge of Germany who sometimes preach rather radical Islam which is not possible in Turkey due to the Turkish laws. We could easily send them away, as their entitlement to stay can easily be revoked in almost all cases.
The other problem group consists of convertites who tend to be (as in all religions) rather radical.

Steve Blair
05-30-2008, 01:17 PM
I find your post "spot-on" in its entirety.

It roughly mirrors my experience living in Deutschland.

I also find the simultaneous beating of Germany for being militaristic and aggressive, in the past, and the beatings for not being militaristic and aggressive enough in the present/future as being cryptic.

I can see where the typical German would be confused about what America wants out of them....

Which is also colored by the 'typical' German view of America which (when I was there in the early 1980s) was formed almost entirely by "Dallas," "Dynasty," and "Rambo." I suspect these days it's a mish-mash of "The Real World" and one gangsta video/film too many.

I remember the Turkish 'guest worker' situation being a bit of a high-temp subject back in the early '80s, though not the hotbed of bomb-throwing radicalism that many seem to think it might be (that distinction was reserved for students from the Free University in Berlin). The change mentioned by Fuchs was evident even then. Of course, reunification has changed the social makeup of Germany considerably since then. I think many in the US (and elsewhere) underestimate the impact that had on Germany in many ways (social, economic, political).

BRUZ_LEE
05-30-2008, 02:19 PM
Steve Blair said:
"Which is also colored by the 'typical' German view of America which was formed ... in the early 1980s almost entirely by "Dallas," "Dynasty," and "Rambo." I suspect these days it's a mish-mash of "The Real World" and one gangsta video/film too many."

1. The first sentence is a nice example for illegitimate generalization & misinformation. - How long was Mr. Blair in Germany and how many people did he meet? Apparently he hasn't been there for over 20 years but still wants to talk about things he cannot have current information about. I would rather go with Fuchs who is actually a German/or at least currently living there.

2. The "Aero Outcasts" badge Mr. Blair displays is IMO much more inspired by "Rambo" than anything else ...

3. "I suspect...": Lets hope this site goes back from "suspicion" to "information".

Steve Blair
05-30-2008, 02:26 PM
Got some bad news for you, Bruz...the patch from First Squadron, Fourth Cavalry predates Rambo by some years.

Surferbeetle
05-30-2008, 02:28 PM
Fuchs,

Herzlich wilkommen und vielen dank fur ihren rat auf dieser thema (Deutschland).

I would be very interested in any references that you would be willing to share. At the moment I am a bit short on time however I have a few topics that I have been following and would enjoy your take on any that of interest to you; The German Navy had been (continues?) to patrol off of Lebanon, Die Ziet has had a series of interesting articles about computer/State monitoring of late, energy costs are of concern, and I note that commerce with Russia and Germany is very robust. I also find it fascinating that Germany is so strong with regards to photovoltaics - Germany is an engineering powerhouse however the weather (often overcast) is not really conducive to pv as compared to other parts of the world. Weather-wise I have also seen reports of Tornados! in Germany, this is something I expect in Kansas but certainly not Germany. Finally, the German PRT's in the north of Afghanistan have also captured my interest and I would appreciate your insights.

Regards,

Steve

Fuchs
05-30-2008, 04:08 PM
I guess a source on the Afghanistan polls would be a good start.

http://www.infratest-dimap.de/images/trends/deutschlandtrend/dt0709/dt0709_12.gif
The blue line (34% in Sep 07)says how many want our troops to stay in Iraq, the red one how many say they should withdraw.
The results are sometimes published in journals, the source institute Infratest dimap does the poll quite often with the same questions, but doesn't publish all results for an easy access like this one.

The Spiegel published these Infratest dimap numbers in IIRC February 08:

"Should the Bundeswehr continue to be stationed in Afghanistan?"
yes: 42% no: 55%

"Should the Bundeswehr do combat missions in Afghanistan like other nations' troops do?"
yes: 13% no: 86%


The navy is still at the coastline of Lebanon (pointless) and Somalia (blocking AQ - pointless as well. But it comes handy due to the recent pirate activity. The frigate has collected lots of intel on the situation there before the piracy problem erupted).
The present numbers of soldiers in so-called "out-of-area" missions is always up-to-date here:
http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd443DgoESYGZASH6kT CxoJRUfV-P_NxUfW_9AP2C3IhyR0dFRQD-G0VU/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvd0ZNQUFzQUMvNElVRS82X0NfNDJE
http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/PA_1_0_P3/PortalFiles/C1256EF40036B05B/W276AFL2506INFODE/Einsatzkarte_640.jpg?yw_repository=youatweb
Actually, I forgot to mention a handful of Tornados that are now included in OEF as well.

Germany's trade with many nations is very "robust". We export and import extremely much (especially in comparison to GNP,see the CIA World Factbook for some easy statistics), and our balance surplus is a quite unknown problem.
Trade with Russia is sometimes in the news because natural gas sources are not diversified enough. We get too much natural gas from Russia.

Photovoltaic power; well, the other solar power technologies work with direct radiation, photovoltaic power works with scattered solar radiation as well. That's why we're looking at it: Because of our clouds.

Tornados. Well, every country has at least one ####ty newspaper, I guess.
But I've got something more interesting. Yesterday we had a cloud over parts of Western Germany that dropped not only an unbelievable volume of water - it also darkened whole regions like an eclipse. I had 10m sight range at 11 o'clock in the morning!

The PRT in Northern Afghanistan is outside of the originally allowed mission and it required quite some discussions to set it up with originally 42 men (with new parliament's mandate). It looks successful (although it had some troubles with harassing fires that stopped only when additional infantry began to patrol the area. There were also some IED/RPG attacks.)
I don't know much about its activities - Afghanistan news are very rare in Germany anyway and I'm out of uniform since some years. I saw a NGO-made map about deterioration/improvement of travel safety in Afghanistan which highlighted the Kunduz and Kabul regions as (almost) the only two regions with major improvements IIRC.
I personally consider the Afghan war as a civil war and don't think that we need to participate.

P.S.: I'm sorry about the many typos in the opening post. I used a browser without spelling check...

Steve Blair
05-30-2008, 04:22 PM
Interesting stuff, Fuchs. Thanks!

Tacitus
05-30-2008, 06:21 PM
# Terror vs. Germans

Is considered as marginal threat. We seem to care more about smoking in pubs or not, for example.
We had some terror victims in 9/11, some in Tunisia IIRC in 2002, but not much else. AQ sometime declared us as their foe due to our involvement in Afghanistan, so far without significant consequences.


Left out of this summary is anything about Mohamed Atta.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Atta#Germany
He apparently felt comfortable enough operating in Hamburg to create the Hamburg Cell, which was central to carrying out the 9/11 assault.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_Cell

I've been to several places in Germany, but never Hamburg. Is Hamburg especially hospitable for radical Islamists, for some reason?

I'm not a big fan at all of this democracy project of ours in Mesopotamia. But if the USA was discovered to be used as a base of planning operations for an Al Qaeda attack on another place (say Germany), I would regard this as a pretty serious development. If they feel comfortable planning something like that from here, then we've got a problem.

Fuchs
05-30-2008, 06:37 PM
Left out of this summary is anything about Mohamed Atta.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Atta#Germany
He apparently felt comfortable enough operating in Hamburg to create the Hamburg Cell, which was central to carrying out the 9/11 assault.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_Cell

I've been to several places in Germany, but never Hamburg. Is Hamburg especially hospitable for radical Islamists, for some reason?

I'm not a big fan at all of this democracy project of ours in Mesopotamia. But if the USA was discovered to be used as a base of planning operations for an Al Qaeda attack on another place (say Germany), I would regard this as a pretty serious development. If they feel comfortable planning something like that from here, then we've got a problem.

"# Terror vs. Germans"

He behaved reasonably in Germany. I mean, besides preparing a terror strike.
His terror cell pretty much wiped itself out on 9/11 (one or two alleged supporters were sent to our courts, but iirc the police wasn't able to prove anything).

They happened to be in Hamburg to study at the university (something technical iirc), no other specific reason that I know about. You can find more Muslims in the Ruhrgebiet (west) than in Hamburg (north).

Btw, did you miss that the 9/11 pilots learned to fly in Florida? ;)

Tom Odom
05-30-2008, 07:43 PM
Btw, did you miss that the 9/11 pilots learned to fly in Florida?

Yep and that is why SWC has its chief insurgent, Ken White, on a recce for us...

Tacitus
05-30-2008, 09:12 PM
Btw, did you miss that the 9/11 pilots learned to fly in Florida? ;)

Why some flight students were so interested in learning to fly a jet airplane, but unconcerned with how to land it, ought to have caused somebody down there in Florida to wonder just WHAT kind of pilot they were training to be. Since the demand for Kamikaze pilots dried up on September 2, 1945, this sort of pilot training has gone out of fashion, I believe.

I'm just saying that if an Al Qaeda sleeper agent pulled off some big 9/11 style attack on Canada tomorrow, and it turns out he was organizing the thing out of a farmhouse in Indiana, the fact that he decided to attack elsewhere wouldn't make me feel any safer or immune from whatever this terrorist group might pull next. I am pretty sure most Americans would feel the same. But maybe we are a unique nation for feeling that way.

Where Americans differ amongst themselves is this Iraq thing. Some think this Iraq democracy project is "the central front in the war on terror".

Others, perhaps thinking that the mere idea of a front applied to a terrorist group is a strange metaphor to begin with, are skeptical of this.

I'll tell you in November which political leader of these respective groups will have the most say in what happens next.

Fuchs
05-30-2008, 09:28 PM
I'm just saying that if an Al Qaeda sleeper agent pulled off some big 9/11 style attack on Canada tomorrow, and it turns out he was organizing the thing out of a farmhouse in Indiana, the fact that he decided to attack elsewhere wouldn't make me feel any safer or immune from whatever this terrorist group might pull next.

The reason why Germans don't feel as being really threatened by AQ is more that we didn't piss the Arabs off for 25 years (well, just a little bit - about twice since 2002; OEF and Mohammed caricature re-prints).

Ken White
05-30-2008, 09:42 PM
The reason why Germans don't feel as being really threatened by AQ is more that we didn't piss the Arabs off for 25 years (well, just a little bit - about twice since 2002; OEF and Mohammed caricature re-prints).far longer than that... :D

selil
05-31-2008, 12:05 AM
I'm just saying that if an Al Qaeda sleeper agent pulled off some big 9/11 style attack on Canada tomorrow, and it turns out he was organizing the thing out of a farmhouse in Indiana, the fact that he decided to attack elsewhere wouldn't make me feel any safer or immune from whatever this terrorist group might pull next.

There are terrorists in Indiana!!!??? I bet they are hiding in the corn... I'll get my gun.

120mm
05-31-2008, 01:24 PM
Tornados. Well, every country has at least one ####ty newspaper, I guess.
But I've got something more interesting. Yesterday we had a cloud over parts of Western Germany that dropped not only an unbelievable volume of water - it also darkened whole regions like an eclipse. I had 10m sight range at 11 o'clock in the morning!

It got to Oberpfalz by 1900. Scary high winds and great big hammerhead clouds.

We are from Iowa, where tornadoes and really big thunderstorms are normally a nightly occurence at this time of year, and we were outside when it happened. My wife and I looked at each other, and said "uh oh!" thinking tornadic activity all the way.

And the temperature drop/extreme darkness was unreal....

Tacitus
05-31-2008, 09:34 PM
far longer than that... :D

Amen to that, Ken.

You could trace the USA's conflict with violent, Islamic elements all the way back to 1784, when the ink was barely dry on the peace treaty with Britain. The Barbary Pirates, anyone?

In 1786, Thomas Jefferson, then the ambassador to France, and John Adams, then the ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the ambassador to Britain from Tripoli. The Americans asked Adja why his government was hostile to American ships, even though there had been no provocation. The ambassador's response was reported to the Continental Congress:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

Citing the Koran as a justification to kill, rob, and/or enslave American infidels was well chronicled in history long before Nixon or Carter occupied the White House. U.S. Marines singing about fighting "to the shores of Tripoli", doesn't have anything to do with Colonel Khadaffi.

davidbfpo
05-31-2008, 09:58 PM
Excellent thread, especially Fuchs comments.

I do wonder, nay ask, whether the FRG has not changed its counter-terrorism laws and techniques as they are quite adequate to the threat? There are some, on both sides of the Atlantic, that feel many of the legislation passed since 9/11 has been more "spin" than substance.

Inidentally it was important in the UK to make illegal private possession of nuclear material, an important gap in our laws.

davidbfpo

Fuchs
05-31-2008, 10:19 PM
Thanks, Davidbfpo.
The CT changes of laws have mostly increased the ability of the state to spy on and find (in population databases) extremists in Germany. Attempts to establish a domestic CT role of the Bundeswehr have been repelled.

One problem with the new competencies is that their success is often reported as marginal, but greater success is probably simply kept as secret.
I personally believe that many new competencies have become useless against all but the dumbest wannabe-terrorists simply because these competencies have become publicly known and suspects can adapt to the new situation.

Classic example: A Muslim terrorist might book a flight and order a pork meal, but simply doesn't eat the pork. The competence to look at databases for specific behaviours (like to not order the pork meal because you're probably Muslim) to add suspicion points could easily be fooled like this. With up to several years of intense discussion on the law changes you can bet that the suspects have adapted even before the new laws were in force. What's left? Our state moved some steps towards police state for probably no real benefit.


Tacitus, Ken White;
I believe the today really relevant conflicts with Arabs began in 1973 when the USA attempted to save Israel. It had a rather low profile till then. I believe that older conflicts are quite irrelevant and were not of greater scope than conflicts with Europeans (which remained much less troublesome than 9/11 except of course the Algerian war of independence).

The U.S. conflict with Persians might date back due to the support (or establishment?) of the Shah regime, but concerning the Arabs I'd say 25 years = since 1973.

Ken White
06-01-2008, 05:24 PM
...I believe the today really relevant conflicts with Arabs began in 1973 when the USA attempted to save Israel. It had a rather low profile till then. I believe that older conflicts are quite irrelevant and were not of greater scope than conflicts with Europeans (which remained much less troublesome than 9/11 except of course the Algerian war of independence).

The U.S. conflict with Persians might date back due to the support (or establishment?) of the Shah regime, but concerning the Arabs I'd say 25 years = since 1973.but our intrusion into the area with the British during WW II started the trend; immediate post war efforts by us alone aimed at eclipsing the British and French made us the focus of concern (and predictably aroused the ire of those two western Nations but that's another thread).

Placing Mohammed Reza on the Peacock throne and then colluding with the British to keep him there in 1953 did not help. That was all survivable but Lyndon Johnson's massive support of Israel in 1967 -- it had really been sort of tepid prior to that -- tilted the balance. The support in 1973 just went further in reinforcing that downward trend.

Add to that the intrusion of despised western (but mostly American) 'culture' from 1945 forward with acceleration due to better global communication in the post 1960 era and we are correctly and widely seen as having far more than our nose under the tent.

Couple all that with inappropriate responses to the to be expected lashing out at the Great Satan from folks in the ME and we have a classic example of unthinking and unsophisticated intrusion coupled with an ignorance bred response to the utterly predictable strikes which merely exacerbated the problem.

We haven't done much in the ME very well and we've been doing that for a good many years...

Sarajevo071
06-01-2008, 07:21 PM
Tacitus, Ken White;
I believe the today really relevant conflicts with Arabs began in 1973 when the USA attempted to save Israel. It had a rather low profile till then. I believe that older conflicts are quite irrelevant and were not of greater scope than conflicts with Europeans (which remained much less troublesome than 9/11 except of course the Algerian war of independence).

The U.S. conflict with Persians might date back due to the support (or establishment?) of the Shah regime, but concerning the Arabs I'd say 25 years = since 1973.

If I may to inject myself into this with a litle comment, I would agree and say that is 100% on point with regards to U.S. Until then main fight was against UK & French imperialism.

Also, I would like to remind everyone when talking about Germany (in particular) and Europe (in general) that one can not talk about Muslim anger, and reasons for action of some individuals, without to mention hostility of EU against Turkey and they membership (purely based on history, hate and xenophobia), and West inaction in Bosnia. That was main rally call of "Hamburg group", right?

Fuchs
06-01-2008, 08:17 PM
Well, the Turks and German-Turks in Germany are worker class or unemployed.
It's an often denied fact, but they are in competition with the German worker class and unemployed workers for jobs. The social situation also causes unfavourable criminal statistics and low respect of middle and upper classes.
That's not helpful.

Another aspect is that the Turkish culture is quite different, especially the very backward version that's in use with the emigrants (who often stick to a culture as of 1950's rural Turkey). They provide occasionally terrible examples (like murder of sister because she was too Western and 'dishonoured' the family and such nonsense).

Finally we have some really stupid newspapers in both languages.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

About racism and national conflicts in Germany in general:
There's no real "racism" in Germany. It's rather an antipathy towards specific nationalities.

positive:
UK
Scandinavian countries
France (although they're not particularly friendly to us)
Spain & Portugal
Italy
Austria & Switzerland (they speak German...kind of)
Australia & New Zealand
Canada
Asians (India to Japan)
Netherlands (although they dislike us)

divided:
Poland (hard-working helpers in agriculture and grey market in general, but also notorious for stealing cars)
USA (this goes to negative for sure if McCain gets elected)
Russia ("drunk")
Arabs (quickly drifting to negative due to corruption and extremists)

neutral:
Bulgaria
Slovakia
Czech
Belgium
Latin Americans
most non-Russian Eastern Europeans
most Africans
Carribbean countries

negative:
Romania (Romanian gangs had serious looting campaigns in Germany in the early 90's. They crashed into stores, about 10 Romanians stole as much as possible and loaded the truck, then they drove to next town. Seriously.)
Ghana (quite many Africans sitting unemployed in cities and supposedly dealing drugs - many of them are assumed to be from Ghana for some unknown reason)
Afghans (drug troubles)
Vietnamese (cigarette smuggling, most of them are a leftover of DDR friendship policy with Vietnam in 70's and 80's)
Albania (lots of very violent criminals)
Turkey (mentioned above)

An American black man would feel next to no discrimination in office clothes in Germany, but if misunderstood for a Ghanaan seeking asylum he might run into troubles monthly.
A Romanian would be under close scrutiny, a Bulgarian likely not.
A Macedonian would have little if any troubles (I had a Macedonian friend and he never had serious problems), but an Albanian would likely get no job.
Skin colour and religions are quite unimportant, nationality is much more important in Germany.

Ken White
06-01-2008, 08:23 PM
If I may to inject myself into this with a litle comment, I would agree and say that is 100% on point with regards to U.S. Until then main fight was against UK & French imperialism.the US effectively killed any and all UK and French imperialism in the ME on 6 November 1956 and everyone in the ME knew that had occurred. Thus, the US became the bad guy everyone loved to hate...

So 1973 is too late; Johnson's massive aid and total support in 1967, to the extent of swallowing the attack by the Israelis on the USS Liberty merely continued and cemented the trend of the US replacing the British and French in ME eyes that began in 1956. By 1973 that process had been in effect for 17 years.

Sarajevo071
06-01-2008, 08:42 PM
Skin colour and religions are quite unimportant, nationality is much more important in Germany.

Generally speaking, yes I will agree... Nationalism was always bigger in Europe.

Back to Turks... Majority of them are secular, right? And talking about different culture, would you say that Serbs have same culture values like Europeans? And if so, why would they be more accepted (being responsible for genocide in Bosnia and Croatia, and still harboring war criminals which did not stop Europeans to have talks with them about joining EU) then Turks?

Can I assume that you know that Serbs also recognize "honor" killings in they culture and instances of that crimes are often in serbian villages? Or you think European hate for those crimes is only limited on Muslims?! BTW, I read International Crisis Group report on Turks in Germany and it was interesting read that explained allot about Turks in Germany, they life and hopes... You should look into it (if you didn't by now).

What I am trying to say is that bias in Europe (together with they own background, education level and culture) has to do with how others are treated there and how will they respond on it. Germany, having the experience with migrant workers and WWII history is maybe less engage in racist profiling but they are coming around and quickly choosing sides.

Sarajevo071
06-01-2008, 08:49 PM
the US effectively killed any and all UK and French imperialism in the ME on 6 November 1956 and everyone in the ME knew that had occurred. Thus, the US became the bad guy everyone loved to hate...

So 1973 is too late; Johnson's massive aid and total support in 1967, to the extent of swallowing the attack by the Israelis on the USS Liberty merely continued and cemented the trend of the US replacing the British and French in ME eyes that began in 1956. By 1973 that process had been in effect for 17 years.

It was never clear to me why did Liberty happened and why didn't US Goverment responded and defend those sailors?! Some of them even spoke about pressure to stay silent.

Anyways, maybe US did help end of Imperialisms in ME but very fast US step up to fill vacuum and become neo-imperialistic force to this day (replaced with economic pressures, small war/interventions, regime changes and financial control and black mails). I remember reading something from Truman office (some report) about ME and Islam and it is pure bias and full of imperialistic ideas.

Fuchs
06-01-2008, 09:02 PM
Serbia is difficult.
Slovenia is no problem at all, Croatia is (if known at all) rather positive.
Serbia otherwise is still stained by the reporting about the Yugoslavian civil wars.

Serbs usually get little appreciation for their political positions in Germany.
I cannot tell much about private relationships, I only knew one Serbian female 11 years ago.

Serbia is no doubt being considered as "European" (unlike Turkey or Georgia, for example).

Ken White
06-01-2008, 09:07 PM
It was never clear to me why did Liberty happened and why didn't US Goverment responded and defend those sailors?! Some of them even spoke about pressure to stay silent.Nor is it clear to many anywhere; lot of arguments and discussions back and forth with no real resolution. It happened; it's over.
Anyways, maybe US did help end of Imperialisms in ME but very fast US step up to fill vacuum and become neo-imperialistic force to this day (replaced with economic pressures, small war/interventions, regime changes and financial control and black mails). I remember reading something from Truman office (some report) about ME and Islam and it is pure bias and full of imperialistic ideas.I thought that's what I said? Also, you seem to forget I said this above in this thread: ""We haven't done much in the ME very well and we've been doing that for a good many years...""

There are plenty of dummies on both sides of this, the ME has some; we have some. Neither side has done well. not looking all that good for the future, either... :(

bourbon
06-01-2008, 10:24 PM
Left out of this summary is anything about Mohamed Atta.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Atta#Germany
He apparently felt comfortable enough operating in Hamburg to create the Hamburg Cell, which was central to carrying out the 9/11 assault.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_Cell

I've been to several places in Germany, but never Hamburg. Is Hamburg especially hospitable for radical Islamists, for some reason?

I'm not a big fan at all of this democracy project of ours in Mesopotamia. But if the USA was discovered to be used as a base of planning operations for an Al Qaeda attack on another place (say Germany), I would regard this as a pretty serious development. If they feel comfortable planning something like that from here, then we've got a problem.

Tacitus,
I believe the Hamburg Cell’s radicalization process was the “bunch of guys” dynamic. The key was their recruitment, what happened once they decided they wanted to join an armed Jihadi front. Their original aim was to fight in Chechnya, but they were selected for a bigger mission while they were in the AQ training process. Two individuals also located in Hamburg are involved in linking them into this process, Mohammed Haydar Zammar (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=mohammed_haydar_zammar) and Mamoun Darkazanli (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=mamoun_darkazanli).

Zammar and Darkazanli were both born in Allepo, Syria, both are German citizens, and both are members of the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood. Zammar was active in the 1990’s in supplying foreign fighters and arms to Bosnian Muslims. It is known that Germany covertly aided Croatia and the Bosnian Muslims, as did we-overtly once the arms embargo was dropped. Islamic NGO’s based in German (and in the U.S.) also provided humanitarian and military aide to the Bosnian Muslims with little interference by both governments.

Surferbeetle
06-01-2008, 10:54 PM
Thanks, Davidbfpo.

I believe the today really relevant conflicts with Arabs began in 1973 when the USA attempted to save Israel. It had a rather low profile till then. I believe that older conflicts are quite irrelevant and were not of greater scope than conflicts with Europeans (which remained much less troublesome than 9/11 except of course the Algerian war of independence).

The U.S. conflict with Persians might date back due to the support (or establishment?) of the Shah regime, but concerning the Arabs I'd say 25 years = since 1973.

Fuchs,

During my year in Iraq I was amazed to find that people really and truly cared about Sunni-Shia split in 632 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni-Shia_relations) and what the Ottoman Turks did in Iraq 1831 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq).

Herr Uhrlau of the BND (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,475676,00.html) has an interesting take on things...


Uhrlau: We mustn't fool ourselves. From the standpoint of the sponsors of terrorism and their accomplices, we belong to the "crusaders." German soldiers are deployed in Afghanistan, and the German navy is patrolling the waters off the Horn of Africa and in the Mediterranean off the Lebanese coast. From the perspective of the terrorists, we have adopted a clear position in this conflict -- they see us as being on the side of the attackers.

Do you see Otto von Bismarck's alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck) with the Ottoman Turks as a positive and how does that square with the EU's current stance on the accession of Turkey (http://www.economist.com/countries/Turkey/)?

Regards,

Steve

Sarajevo071
06-02-2008, 07:09 AM
Nor is it clear to many anywhere; lot of arguments and discussions back and forth with no real resolution. It happened; it's over.I thought that's what I said? Also, you seem to forget I said this above in this thread: ""We haven't done much in the ME very well and we've been doing that for a good many years...""

There are plenty of dummies on both sides of this, the ME has some; we have some. Neither side has done well. not looking all that good for the future, either... :(
Sorry if I miss your point. And, I do agree with you latest statement in full.

Sarajevo071
06-02-2008, 07:29 AM
It is known that Germany covertly aided Croatia and the Bosnian Muslims, as did we-overtly once the arms embargo was dropped. Islamic NGO’s based in German (and in the U.S.) also provided humanitarian and military aide to the Bosnian Muslims with little interference by both governments.
Helping Croatia sure and maybe Croats in Bosnia but helping Bosnian Muslims Germany did not. Or, at least I never heard of and i was there for years... U.S. did have couple covert operations before embargo was lifted. I know for some of them and I manage to meat couple guys who was there.

Sarajevo071
06-02-2008, 07:40 AM
Serbia is difficult.
Slovenia is no problem at all, Croatia is (if known at all) rather positive.
Serbia otherwise is still stained by the reporting about the Yugoslavian civil wars.

Serbs usually get little appreciation for their political positions in Germany.
I cannot tell much about private relationships, I only knew one Serbian female 11 years ago.

Serbia is no doubt being considered as "European" (unlike Turkey or Georgia, for example).
Yes all that is right but my point was:

Serbia was perpetrator for 5 wars (all of them they lost), for genocide and death camps, still sheltering war criminals and still they are regard better by the Germany and EU! Turkie's military elite on other hand go as far to forbid ezan from the Islambul's mosques and forcing veils from womans head, doing they worst to the Muslims and yet they are ignored and kicked on the side by the EU countries... Reason why is Serbia better then Turkey is not geographical (if Israel can be part of Eurovision, European songs competition, then Turkey can be Europe since half of them is in Europe anyways). It is xenophobia, old history and racism that looks better on white, Christian Serb then on dark skinned, Asiatic Muslims.

Fuchs
06-02-2008, 07:55 AM
Trust me, it's not about skin colour.
Israel (not European imo) shares the culture with Europe, Turkey does not have an European culture.
The border to Turkey marks the frontier between "Morgenland" (orient) and "Abendland" (occident).

This cultural division is the key. They are simply not (considered as) European, although they managed to keep a tiny bit of European ground on their withdrawal from the former Ottoman Empire's size.
They're sitting between Arabs/Persians and Europeans, don't belong to either group (but much more to Arabs/Persians than to Europeans).

Steve;
Uhrlau is part of the very small scaremonger faction in Germany (which consists of federal Secretary or Interior, some state Seretaries of Interior, BND head, and some Internal Intelligence Service (Verfassungsschutz / constitution defence service) officials.

He's right, our participation has moved us into crosshairs instead of protecting us. But we're part of a huge group of countries in the crosshairs and the overall perception fo threat is very low.

The "Crusaders" affiliation should bother the Israelis the most, they're a perfect copy of crusaders imho. I expect them to collapse as well in some generations like the Crusaders did once support from overseas dwindled.

The connection between the 2nd Reich and the Ottoman Empre is 99% unknown today and can be regarded as utterly unimportant.

Sarajevo071
06-02-2008, 10:36 PM
Trust me, it's not about skin colour.
Israel (not European imo) shares the culture with Europe, Turkey does not have an European culture.
The border to Turkey marks the frontier between "Morgenland" (orient) and "Abendland" (occident).

This cultural division is the key. They are simply not (considered as) European, although they managed to keep a tiny bit of European ground on their withdrawal from the former Ottoman Empire's size.
They're sitting between Arabs/Persians and Europeans, don't belong to either group (but much more to Arabs/Persians than to Europeans).

OK, I think I can agree with that. Thank you for you explanations and patience.

davidbfpo
06-06-2008, 09:29 PM
Nearly forgot this odd incident and found this Pakistani newspaper report that some suspects have now been charged: http://www.dawn.com/2008/06/06/top10.htm . A second press report: http://www.expatica.com/es/articles/news/Islamist-terror-cell-was-poised-to-attack_-says-judge.html

davidbfpo

rankamateur
06-11-2008, 12:58 PM
Interesting thread. Does anyone know anything about the proposed changes to the German intelligence community?

Wagram
07-30-2008, 02:22 PM
A snippet of information linked to the thread; Sarkozy has recently offered Germany the possibility of basing some german units in France within the frame of the Franco-German brigade (FGB).

Everybody in France thinks the germans will decline.

This has been presented as a way of silencing local german opposition to the withdrawal to France of a Mech unit (16 BC in Saarburg) and to the possible return to France of two other units (110 RI and 3 RH), both part of the FGB and based in Donaueschingen and Immendigen.

Bob's World
12-06-2008, 03:48 PM
The problem isn't Germany, the real problem is NATO. This was a great organization for waging the Cold War. Now that the Cold War is 20 years into the rearview mirror it has taken on a disturbing new role. If the U.S. pulled out of NATO, I suspect the EU would stand it down shortly thereafter as being either redundant to the EU or simply irrelevant.

The U.S., however clings to this organization as it gives us tremendous leverage to coerce our allies to do things in support of US national interests that are not necessarily in support of their own. The old Cold Warrior crowd are also using NATO to push Russia back into a corner for reasons that escape me.

I for one believe it is time to seriously reconsider our role in NATO and to be careful on how our current approach is wearing thin with our allies and competitors alike.

Surferbeetle
12-06-2008, 11:04 PM
The problem isn't Germany, the real problem is NATO. This was a great organization for waging the Cold War. Now that the Cold War is 20 years into the rearview mirror it has taken on a disturbing new role. If the U.S. pulled out of NATO, I suspect the EU would stand it down shortly thereafter as being either redundant to the EU or simply irrelevant.

The U.S., however clings to this organization as it gives us tremendous leverage to coerce our allies to do things in support of US national interests that are not necessarily in support of their own. The old Cold Warrior crowd are also using NATO to push Russia back into a corner for reasons that escape me.

I for one believe it is time to seriously reconsider our role in NATO and to be careful on how our current approach is wearing thin with our allies and competitors alike.

Bob, I appreciate your contributions to FID/SOF/SF analysis, however I disagree with your analysis of NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO). The US is not an Island; globalization impacts us even more than it has in the past.

Regards,

Steve

A critic’s (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article3419840.ece) analysis of the cost of WW II


…the Second World War, when 16.3 million U.S. troops fought in a campaign lasting four years, at a total cost (in 2007 dollars, after adjusting for inflation) of about $5 trillion...

2000 Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/2000/11/02/1102atg.html) Analysis of the cost of NATO


Were it not for keeping the peace in the Balkan states of Bosnia and Kosovo, a reasonable mission that is more suited to the United Nations, NATO would have nothing else to do. NATO is a military alliance--and having added three members in 1998, a growing military alliance--that has no adversary. Barring the unlikely event that Russia suddenly goes back to being a militaristic power with expansionist leanings, NATO will have little to do other than prepare for a war that will never come, and endlessly contemplate its role in the world.

With an estimated annual budget of $1.56 billion, the U.S. shouldered about 29% of NATO's operating budget in 1999, or about $452 million. Each of the member nations pays into NATO based on its gross domestic product, making the U.S. the biggest single contributor. That fund pays for NATO's basic day-to-day operations like staffing and communications, and will presumably pay for NATO's new headquarters, a 557,000-square-foot complex in Brussels


2005 IHT (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/17/news/nato.php) NATO Analysis of the cost of NATO


NATO has a civilian budget of around €130 million, or $167 million, and a military budget of around € 780 million. The United States, Britain, Germany and France are the largest contributors to both segments, with payments ranging from 15 percent to over 23 percent into those budgets while Belgium, Turkey, Denmark, Poland and the Netherlands pay under 2.75 percent.

Bob's World
12-06-2008, 11:19 PM
Last thing I want is the US to be an island. I am, however, far from alone in being concerned with how the U.S. is using its NATO membership since the Cold War.

Personally, I believe that all of the institutions, (UN, World Bank, NATO, etc) born of the Cold War, and US foreign policy in general, and our governmental organization for implementing it are long overdue for a major refreshing. Don't throw out the baby, but after 60 years its time to change the water.

All are based on a understanding of the world as it existed in 1947, and were used to good effect through a very different Cold War world '47-89. Then even as globalization grew and the Soviet threat faded as new post cold war threats emerged, we continued to ride that same tired horse. I am very optimistic that the incoming administration is going to take this on, and just last week a major proposal along these lines was published.

I try to imagine how Americans would feel if the Cold War had gone the other way, and if the Soviet Union was expanding the Warsaw Pact into former NATO nations, and if they had just positioned missile defense systems in Canada to protect them from Iranian missiles... Or if they were using this treaty organization to lead regime change efforts in the name of promoting communism. I think we'd see it much the way the Russians see it today. They dont like it.

Entropy
12-06-2008, 11:52 PM
The problem with NATO is the most Europeans don't want their forces in Afghanistan. I think we need realize what is and is not politically possible for fo the governments of European allies. We can and should try to convince them to do more, but unless and until the people's view changes we should not expect much more.

davidbfpo
12-07-2008, 12:02 AM
This week a UK opinion poll reported 73% opposed our role in Afghanistan. I am reasonably sure NATO gets a high level of public support.

I recall an earlier thread reported on how European NATO members public opinion regarded Afghanistan; with large majorities opposed.

davidbfpo

Surferbeetle
12-07-2008, 12:06 AM
Bob,

We all hope for world peace and prosperity and all of us hope we will navigate (http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070701faessay86401/barack-obama/renewing-american-leadership.html) our way towards these goals in a wiser and more effective way than we have in the past. I myself have devoted one or two hours towards the study and application of indirect methods to accomplish this. But….as I suspect we both know firsthand, it’s a dangerous world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons) out there and the stakes are very high.

Mr. Gates is someone who exhibits an intuitive understanding of these ideas and I find his latest thoughts (http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20090101faessay88103/robert-m-gates/how-to-reprogram-the-pentagon.html) to be of intense interest:


The defining principle of the Pentagon's new National Defense Strategy is balance. The United States cannot expect to eliminate national security risks through higher defense budgets, to do everything and buy everything. The Department of Defense must set priorities and consider inescapable tradeoffs and opportunity costs.

The strategy strives for balance in three areas: between trying to prevail in current conflicts and preparing for other contingencies, between institutionalizing capabilities such as counterinsurgency and foreign military assistance and maintaining the United States' existing conventional and strategic technological edge against other military forces, and between retaining those cultural traits that have made the U.S. armed forces successful and shedding those that hamper their ability to do what needs to be done.


I would be interested in a link to the proposal of which you speak and wonder if it is the one posted above.

With respect to Russia, I find it to be a fascinating country and agree that we could have approached some things in a more productive way than we have. The Economist has a timely 14 page analysis in its November 29th Edition (http://www.economist.com/printedition/index.cfm?d=20081129) that may be of interest. Having served on the other end of Russian intentions however, I am a big fan of the saying ‘trust but verify’.

Regards,

Steve

Bob's World
12-07-2008, 12:17 AM
I agree that we underestimate Russian nationalism at our peril. I just wish we didn't let the old Cold War gang keep poking the Russian bear in his nads. As to NATO, I believe it is high time for the US to quit burdening our own economy with the EU's defense bill. They'll let us do it for as long as we are willing to pay it, and pay us back with token forces to support our efforts, that they then, like the German example in this string, they restrict from full participation. Just seems like a sucker's bet to me.

General Jones was the original lead on the commission, but I noticed his name was not on the final; but as he is the new NSA, I suspect much of it will get implemented. Don't have the link. It hit my in box late this week, and I only had time to read the exec summary and scan it quickly so far. Someone else might have it handy.

Surferbeetle
12-07-2008, 01:55 AM
From today’s FT (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4fe7f0de-c220-11dd-a350-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1)



Unilateral Germany threatens to weaken Europe

Finally, the same three capitals despair of Germany’s commitment to Nato and EU defence. Germany’s 4,500 troops in Afghanistan – in the north and not allowed to fight – are little help to the Nato mission there. Germany shows scant enthusiasm for French president Nicolas Sarkozy’s efforts to strengthen EU defence.

Germany is the world’s biggest exporter of goods, and its industrial lobbies hold more sway over foreign policy than is the case in most other countries. Germany Inc demands good relations with Russia, its fastest-growing export market after China last year. Its heavy industry is trying to weaken the ambitious EU climate change package that Ms Merkel herself brokered in 2007. And if Germany is more reluctant than its partners to sanction Iran, that may be because it out-sells them in that market.


From today’s Economist (http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12724878)



German politics

Ms Merkel is the CDU’s greatest asset. On a good day 38% of German voters support the party (more than any other). But over half would vote for Ms Merkel if the chancellor were elected directly. The party is counting on a “chancellor bonus” to lift it over several electoral hurdles in 2009. In September it hopes to secure a big enough victory to end its grand coalition with the Social Democratic Party (SPD) and govern with the liberal Free Democrats, a smaller and more congenial partner.

From the July/August 2008 Foreign Affairs (http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20080701faessay87407/james-p-rubin/building-a-new-atlantic-alliance.html)



Building a New Atlantic Alliance

This year, Germany, not the United States, played the role of NATO power broker. All the key NATO foreign ministers were huddled with German Chancellor Angela Merkel to determine the future of NATO enlargement. When their decision was announced, Georgia and Ukraine were stunned that the clout of the United States was not enough to put them on the path to NATO membership.

Bob's World
12-07-2008, 11:33 AM
We've been tracking this. France had the foresight to create more energy independence than its neighbors, all of which are almost wholly dependent on Russian energy. I think we need to respect Germany's perspective on Russia, because we certainly cannot empathize with it. This is why France was the only Euro to really protest the Georgia event. Probably why they are the ones talking again here.

Russia can, and has, turned off the pipelines to enforce their will. It becomes a game of chicken, as they need the steady revenue to fund their own economy, as to who blinks first. Germany is wise to fear a Russian incursion in the name of nationalism into the Ukraine. If Georgia is any example it would be met with extremely broad nationalist support in Russia.

Anyway, good to see Europeans taking back the lead in Europe.

Bob's World
12-08-2008, 01:05 PM
http://www.pnsr.org/web/page/583/sectionid/554/pagelevel/2/interior.asp

This probably requires a thread all of its own. Link is to PNSR: Project on National Security Reform. Recommend that those interested in potential trends for the bigger picture of how our Nation's national security writ large operates read the exsum in the "reports" section, then into "Major reports" for the propsals for National Security Reform. Report is called "Forging a new Shield." A lot of heavy hitters here, to include the newly nominated NSC advisor, Gen(ret) James Jones.

Ken White
12-08-2008, 03:20 PM
Wes Clark...

Yet another Commission with yet another report -- saying the same things are needed that we've known since the 50s. Better Intel, less bureaucracy, centralized planning (not totally beneficial), decentralized execution -- old wine in new bottles as the saying goes...

Here's the big problem with their recommendations:
"We must build a better executive-legislative branch partnership."Until Congress gets on board and gets considerably less venal and concerned with reelection there will be no reform; we will continue to blunder about -- fortunately, doing more right than wrong.

Surferbeetle
09-19-2009, 08:18 AM
From American Institute for Contemporary German Studies (John Hopkins) by Gunther Hellman (http://www.aicgs.org/about/scholars/hellmann.aspx): A Status-Conscious Germany between Adolescence and Retirement: Foreign Policy Commemorations on the 60th Anniversary of the Federal Republic (http://www.aicgs.org/documents/pubs/hellmann.atp09.pdf)


One way to recount the history of Germany’s foreign policy over the past sixty years is to tell it as a story of an unflagging yet patient drive for equal status. It is almost entirely a success story—particularly because the status of all the other states relative to which Germans aspired to be treated as “equal” has continuously risen. Membership in the European Coal and Steel Community, the predecessor to the European Union, in the early 1950s; then NATO in 1955; the UN and the G7 in 1970s; and, most recently, the “P5 plus Germany” group, the exclusive club made up of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council plus Germany that tries to tackle the Iranian nuclear program—all this marks an impressive line of continuous successes of (West) German diplomacy rising within the ranks of the international hierarchy of power and prestige. Given the lack of hard military resources upon which ascending powers had traditionally relied in pushing for admission to the great power club, Germany’s success is undoubtedly due in no small part to its “civilian power” qualities—i.e., the emphasis on soft power tools such as diplomacy, economic aid, and restraint.

jmm99
09-19-2009, 05:52 PM
Germany is a 'great power", given this from Economy of Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Germany):


As of 2007[update], comparable IMF figures, billion dollars, current prices:

United States: 13,807.550
Japan: 4,381.576
Germany: 3,320.913
China: 3,280.224

As of 2008[update], IMF staff estimates:

United States: 14,334.034
Japan: 4,844.362
China: 4,222.423
Germany: 3,818.470

"Report for Selected Countries and Subjects (http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/weorept.aspx?sy=2006&ey=2008&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=924%2C134%2C158%2C111&s=NGDPD&grp=0&a=&pr1.x=78&pr1.y=8)". World Economic Outlook Database, October 2008. International Monetary Fund. Retrieved today (JMM).

Some times power comes from the barrel of a gun; most times, it comes from the barrels of smokestacks. The Germans also seem to have a reasonably working health care program, which I suppose has its roots in the Bismarck era.

Still surviving are such pioneers as Deutz AG (http://www.deutz.de/live_deutz_com/file/chronik_en/app.html) (the successor to Otto's engine factory, the first in the world - use full screen view - F11 - to scroll though pages); and new amalgamations such as Otto GmbH & Co KG (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Otto_Group), the world's largest mail-order company (second largest online IIRC). Some bias in favor of those two companies because I know one of their directors; but they exemplify both tradition and adaptation which have served German businesses well.

Fuchs
09-19-2009, 09:24 PM
The core of the German economy are the SMEs (small&medium enterprises) - many of them date back to the 1950's reconstruction era while many large companies have their roots in the Bismarck era. The larger ones need the SMEs as innovative suppliers because most large companies lack innovative power or have only innovative power in areas that require huge investments for progress (like pharmaceuticals).

The quantitative economic comparisons among countries become even more interesting if you look at the goods production only (ignoring the services).
Or - really hardcore - look at the production sector in terms of purchasing power parities.

A comparison of economies in PP in general is also interesting.

I did a quick table.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/a0ahg2c/n/G9_pdf (http://www.filefactory.com/file/a0ahg2c/n/G9_pdf)

About Germany and great power; it's true in a European context (Germany can essentially move the EU if it teams up with France - and did so many times already), but global ambitions are limited to conference halls.

Surferbeetle
09-20-2009, 03:29 AM
From the Economist, 17 September 2009, Germany's election: A change of partners? (http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14447093&source=hptextfeature)


SAARLAND, the smallest German state without the excuse of being just a city, is a thumbnail caricature of Germany. It was here, among the woods and hills, that Goethe in 1770 claimed to discover that “passion for reflection on economic and technical matters” that occupied much of his life. For decades the thick coal seams underneath it made Saarland a pawn in the power-games of Germany and France. And because of that history, the sort of industry that Germany is known for—cars, steel and machines—looms even larger in its economy than in the rest of the country.


Yet the election will not be a coronation. The main choice voters face is whether to extend Ms Merkel’s cranky partnership with the SPD or to heed her plea for a change of coalition: she would rather govern with the smaller Free Democratic Party (FDP). That would not be a trivial change. The SPD and FDP stand almost at opposite poles of Germany’s political spectrum. The SPD preaches “solidarity”, which entails strong worker protection, minimum wages and robust social welfare. The FDP champions “freedom”, which goes along with sharply lower taxes, less regulation and friendliness to private enterprise. Ms Merkel ’s CDU and its Bavarian sister party, the Christian Social Union, stand uneasily in the middle. All four accept the tenets of Germany’s “social market economy”. Both the Social Democrats and the Liberals have mellowed, which means that the next government is unlikely to bring in radical change, no matter what its makeup. But a government with liberal leanings is more likely to keep Germany vigorous as it ages, and is what Ms Merkel says she wants.

Igel
09-29-2009, 03:16 PM
Partners changed. But propably no change in Germanys GWOT Operations.

Few foreign policy shifts expected from new German coalition (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4731038,00.html)

Things are unlikely to change, however, as both Merkel's conservatives and Westerwelle's liberals support Germany's involvement in Afghanistan. Westerwelle himself has made it clear that he opposes widening the role of German troops deployed against the Taliban, a consistent irritant to US military planners who regularly called on the previous government to commit Bundeswehr troops to combat operations. It is therefore unlikely that the new coalition will cave in to increased calls from the US and other NATO partners to move German troops into more dangerous areas of Afghanistan.


Though I disagree with this statement:


"In fact the new government will find it marginally easier to pursue the policy of the previous government. The Afghanistan mission is widely unpopular within the German electorate and it was particularly hard for the Social Democrats with their pacifist traditions to defend Germany’s involvement. It should be easier for the CDU/CSU-FDP coalition government to sustain Germany’s engagement even if it remains a position which is unpopular at home and with a large part of their own electorate."

If the socialdemocrats move to an anti-war position it will be much harder to pursue the current GWOT policy. An anti-war stance by the SPD would give a large part of the german electorat a more serious voting alternative to end the mission than the far-left "Linke". Depending on how the war in Afghanistan develops, rising election chances of the SPD could force the new goverment to be even more reculant about the fighting deployments of the german troops, to put more pressure on NATO to end the mission or could even lead to a retreat of the german troops.
Then again this is a rather big "if" and I would hardly describe the SPD as "pacifist". In any case after that defeat the SPD will have its hands full with internal party politics for quite a time.

Fuchs
09-29-2009, 04:31 PM
We don't even know the future SecDef or the coalition agreement.
That will likely take 4+ more weeks.

The only quite certain things are that Merkel will remain chancellor and Westerwelle will become minister for foreign affairs.
I don't know much about his foreign affairs attitude, though.


Jung will likely not remain SecDef, although his state party agitates in order to keep him in the cabinet in whatever position.

davidbfpo
10-02-2009, 10:33 PM
Originally reported last week in Die Spiegel and picked up elsewhere (not sure if it appeared here):


The German government is trying to secure the release of a group of suspected German terrorists, arrested by Pakistani authorities while they were on their way to a jihadi colony in Waziristan Agency. A report in the German newspaper Speigel claimed that entire families from Germany, and Europe, were moving to the region to take part in jihad. In a recent jihadi video surfacing in Germany, a young speaker, who called himself “Abu Adam”, praises his stay in the mountains. “Doesn’t it appeal to you? We warmly invite you to join us!” Abu Adam said. The latest recruitment video from the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) is 30 minutes in length and is addressed to “beloved” brothers and sisters back in Germany. The video was presented by, among others, Mounir Chouka, alias “Abu Adam”, who grew up in the western German city of Bonn. The video showed shacks erected against a backdrop of lush greenery and craggy rock formations, with women wearing blue burqas seen surrounded by children, the paper said. The video appeals seem to be finding fertile ground in Germany. German security officials believe the IMU is currently the largest and most active Islamic group recruiting in the country. But what was worrying them more was that the terrorists did not usually recruit women and children, as the IMU appeared doing. Villages: Families are moving to “mujahideen villages” in the Tribal Areas, which are used as bases for supporting the battle against the US troops and the Afghan army, Speigel claimed.

There is a current court trial in Germany of a terrorist group, called the Saurland plot to attack US targets, who were mainly Turks recruited by the Uzbek group (IMU) - German legend was that German-Turks were not attrcated by AQ ideology (3m of the 4.3m Muslims in Germany are Turks). Four defendants have made admissions and indicated there was a previously unknown group of German-Turks in Waziristan. Of note is that those recruited were encouraged to return home to launch attacks.

There are too many links on Google and some background is in: http://www.swp-berlin.org/common/get_document.php?asset_id=5147

hHelps to put the context of German concerns over terrorism; which is little reported in the UK except headlines.

Fuchs - any reaction being closer to the scene?

davidbfpo

Fuchs
10-03-2009, 07:18 AM
A guy was yesterday arrested in Germany for recruiting for AQ, but the whole terrorism thing isn't worth to be watched closely.
It's better to look at these kinds of things in retrospect, for the initial info is too often crappy.

Surferbeetle
12-04-2009, 05:26 PM
From today's WSJ By JAY SOLOMON: NATO Pledges More Afghan Troops (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125992554118976499.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENextto WhatsNewsTop)


BRUSSELS -- The North Atlantic Treaty Organization's top official said twenty-five countries have committed to send an additional 7,000 troops to Afghanistan next year, providing the Obama administration with an important infusion of additional firepower to prosecute its war in Central Asia.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and other American officials who visited Friday, however, voiced optimism that NATO allies and other nonmember partners would agree to send even more soldiers to Afghanistan in a bid to salvage a mission viewed as critical to the organization's future.

Fuchs
12-04-2009, 05:50 PM
We've been tracking this. France had the foresight to create more energy independence than its neighbors, all of which are almost wholly dependent on Russian energy.

Well, I understand that this quote is really old, but I seem to have missed it till today.

My short response: Wrong. It's irresponsible, wrong and completely misleading to write such a quote.

This energy dependence works two ways an, is an old and not very dramatic story - and it's the tiny basis of a wrong myth that seems to be rampant in the U.S..


Zahl der Woche Nr.002 vom 13.01.2009

Russland ist Deutschlands wichtigster Energielieferant
Januar bis Oktober 2008: Erdöl und Erdgas für 22,5 Milliarden Euro importiert

WIESBADEN – Wie das Statistische Bundesamt (Destatis) anlässlich des Staatsbesuchs des russischen Ministerpräsidenten Wladimir Putin am 16. Januar 2009 mitteilt, wurden von Januar bis Oktober 2008 Erdöl und Erdgas im Wert von 22,5 Milliarden Euro aus Russland nach Deutschland eingeführt. Gegenüber dem vergleichbaren Vorjahres*zeit*raum ist die Einfuhr wertmäßig um 41,3% gestiegen. In der Rangfolge der wichtigsten Lieferländer von Erdöl und Erdgas lag Russland mit einem Anteil von 32,5% auf Rang 1 vor Norwegen (21,9%) und dem Vereinigten Königreich (9,8%) und war damit Deutschlands wichtigster Energielieferant.

Der Anteil der deutschen Importe von Erdöl und Erdgas aus Russland an allen deutschen Importen aus Russland lag bei 73,8%.
http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/Internet/DE/Presse/pm/zdw/2009/PD09__002__p002.psml

(Information from the German federal agency for statistic that says that German crude oil and natural gas imports from Russia in 01/2008-10/2008 were worth EUR 22.5 billion. Russia supplied 32.5% of German crude oil and natural gas imports, Norway 21.9% and UK 9.8%.)

32.5% of crude oil and natural gas (I assume they added it up in terms of cost, not in terms of weight or heating energy content).

That's one third of a faction of the overall energy consumption (there's still Uranium, lots of Coal, water, wind, waste and solar energy in the mix.


I beg you; don't multiply this ignorant and wrong myth. It's dangerously close to nation bashing.


Besides; natural gas can be easily substituted with other materials and techniques. A natural gas crisis would likely last no longer than half a year or at most a year.
A single serious natural gas crisis inflicted by Russia and Russia would permanently lose most well-paying customers for one of its main export products.

davidbfpo
09-04-2010, 01:23 PM
Hat tip to Kings of War for spotting this:
A German Islamist held by U.S. troops in Afghanistan and interrogated since July has revealed details of planned attacks on targets in Germany and Europe.

Link:http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6830WQ20100904?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+reuters/topNews+(News+/+US+/+Top+News)

Note suspect linked to the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan.

Fuchs
09-04-2010, 01:43 PM
A direct link to the mentioned Spiegel article (in German):
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,715697,00.html



German police shut down the mosque last month, saying it had links with armed Islamist groups in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

That's (if I remember correctly) misleading. Clubs and parties can be forbidden in Germany if they are criminal organisations or opposing the core of our constitution (this was originally meant to outlaw a revival of the NSdAP and its organisations). The Club which maintained the 'cultural centre' and mosque there has been forbidden by Hamburg's minister of the interior based on this law.

Fuchs
09-18-2010, 08:45 PM
A new contribution for a better understanding of Germany by foreigners:

The Grand Strategy of Germany (FRG) (http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.com/2010/09/grand-strategy-of-germany-frg.html)

anna
11-16-2010, 11:45 PM
what fuchs is not admitting is that the whole EU is bankrupt!
The whole EU is under threat from the Turks, Germany, Austria and Benelux countries are over run with "refugees" that brought -and bring- all kinds of
terror connections with them.
The EU countries take them in, put them on welfare, house them and turn them loose on their indiginouse population without propper protection!

So what is fuchs saying now?

Fuchs
11-16-2010, 11:51 PM
what fuchs is not admitting is that the whole EU is bankrupt!
The whole EU is under threat from the Turks, Germany, Austria and Benelux countries are over run with "refugees" that brought -and bring- all kinds of
terror connections with them.
The EU countries take them in, put them on welfare, house them and turn them loose on their indiginouse population without propper protection!

So what is fuchs saying now?

I'm saying "now" that it's too late to respond in length before going to sleep.

Maybe I'll remember the question tomorrow and respond not very positively.

Fuchs
11-17-2010, 10:41 AM
OK, piece by piece.

"whole EU is bankrupt"

Wikipedia: "Bankruptcy is a legally declared inability or impairment of ability [...] to pay its creditors."

The EU has no real debt, just some bills to be paid in the next few weeks. It is legally impossible for the EU to have a deficit and thuis there's no regular debt.

Maybe you meant the dozens of member states; in this case your assertion is ridiculous because of the vast differences. It's even more ridiculous considering your context (which appears to be about nations, not mere fiscal policy).
Germany is a surplus nation, for example. The trade balance surplus has become a tradition and grew to sick proportions in the previous decade. The moderate budget deficit is a mere matter of policy, not of economic ability.

"under threat"


I wrote it before and I'll write it again; the inflationary use of the word "threat" appears to be an indicator for fearful characters. I cannot elaborate on this further because of beoard nettiquette.

"the Turks"


That's actually a very diverse group. Well-educated or poorly educated, Turkish or Kurdish, Sunni-Alvite-secular, ...
"Turks" are furthermore mostly relevant for Germany and Cyprus, but irrelevant in other European countries.

"overrun"

Hardly. Immigration is de facto limited to family members of those who are already in Germany. The real worker immigration was stopped decades ago.

"refugees"

Turkish passport holders are very rarely refugees.

"terror connections".

Your logic reminds me of this (http://armchairgeneralist.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/11/repub-logic-on-iran.html).
Which terror connections, really? The only one that appears to count is the connection between Kurds and the PKK. The PKK has been at a low for years, is long since outlawed in Germany and was no real problem to Europe anyway - it's opposing the Turkish oppression of Kurdistan.
A single tired bus driver is a greater problem.

The very few people with AQ ties appear to have forged these ties inside the EU, not in Turkey. It's therefore a homegrown, not imported problem.

"The EU countries take them in, put them on welfare, house them [...]"


They "take" very few nowadays, not all are on welfare, and living under a roof is in practice considered to be a human right in Europe.

"and turn them loose on their indiginouse population without propper protection!"

I can not really imagine how much prejudice and hate it takes to write something like that. High five for the funny typos, though.

"So what is fuchs saying now?"


I didn't say a word while I wrote this.


Fuchs

Pete
11-22-2010, 06:33 PM
From today's Guardian, UK:

The German government has announced plans to abolish compulsory military service by next summer, marking the most radical overhaul of the armed forces since its postwar founding and a major change to German society.

Under the reforms, which will transform the Bundeswehr into a fully professional defence force by July 2011, the size of the existing military and its inefficient bureaucratic apparatus will be considerably reduced as part of a cost-cutting exercise aimed at shaving about €8bn (£6.8bn) from the defence spending budget.

The entire story can be read at this link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/22/germany-abolish-compulsory-military-service).

Fuchs
11-22-2010, 07:37 PM
That's inaccurate. July 2011 is the date when conscription call-ups will end. Conscripts will stay in the forces for four to six more months.

Conscripts are a small minority in today's Bundeswehr anyway, employed in the least important jobs only.

Fuchs
11-22-2010, 11:11 PM
Full steam back, the last conscripts will be called upon on 1 January, will leave in late July. Only conscripts who volunteered for a few more months will stay beyond that date, but then they're volunteers, obviously.

Some early reports were misleading and I assumed that the English source was a more likely candidate for a misunderstanding.

Details are here http://augengeradeaus.net/2010/11/zahlen-auf-dem-tisch/

Surferbeetle
02-19-2011, 04:21 AM
From Security and Defence Agenda, 8-27-2010, GERMANY TO CONDUCT MAJOR RESTRUCTURING OF MILITARY (http://www.securitydefenceagenda.org/Contentnavigation/Library/Libraryoverview/tabid/1299/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1177/Germany-to-conduct-major-restructuring-of-military.aspx)


Under the plan, the existing military which totals 252,000 soldiers will be downsized to 163,500 and conscription will be suspended, but will retain its place in the constitution. Guttenburg claimed that the proposals will make the German military smaller, but more functional in operations overseas. "By the end of the year it ought to become clear that the Bundeswehr will become smaller, but better," Guttenberg said.

Not all commentators are convinced and many worry about the effect of the reforms on Germany’s ability to successfully fulfil its international military obligations. Markus Kaim, a defence expert at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs points out, “The flaw is that the reforms have neither been coordinated with the EU nor NATO, particularly since Germany is involved in so many of the EU and NATO missions.”

From BBC, By Stephen Evans, 18 Feb 2011, Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg: Baron without a title (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12504356)


At 39, he is young for a politician. He is often mentioned as a possible successor to Germany's chancellorship.


He told a swarm of reporters enquiring about the plagiarism allegations swirling around him: "I will temporarily - I repeat temporarily - give up my doctoral title."

He will do so, he said, while the university that gave him the doctorate completes its investigation into whether it really was all his own work.

The Internet, Political Participation and Election Turnout A Case Study of Germany's www.abgeordnetenwatch.de (http://berghahn.publisher.ingentaconnect.com/content/berghahn/gerpol/2010/00000028/00000003/art00009;jsessionid=7n82nrbmkltuo.alice), Author: Pautz, Hartwig, German Politics & Society, Volume 28, Number 3, Fall 2010 , pp. 156-175(20)


Germany's parliamentary democracy appears to be in crisis. The major parties' membership is in decline and barely existing in East Germany, election turnout is decreasing at all levels, and the reputation of politicians has never been worse. At the same time, however, Germans are more interested in politics than in the 1990s, overwhelmingly support democracy, and are keen on participating particularly in local political decision making. Out of this situation emerged www.abgeordnetenwatch.de— a website that aims to re-establish the link between electors and elected by allowing voters and representatives to communicate via a publicly accessible question-andanswer structure. This article addresses the questions of whether such an instrument can revitalize representative democracy and whether it has done so in the context of the 2009 federal elections.

www.abgeordnetenwatch.de (http://www.abgeordnetenwatch.de/)

Die copy & paste-Abgeordneten (http://blog.abgeordnetenwatch.de/2011/02/18/die-copy-paste-abgeordneten/)

Fuchs
03-07-2011, 02:25 AM
Forget the reform planning. The minister is gone (for certain reasons), his right hand was fired by the successor and said successor has no real background on military affairs. They're starting from a blank sheet of paper.

-----------------

"Germany's stiff upper lip
Germany's surprisingly healthy attitude toward terrorism (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/04/germanys_stiff_upper_lip)"
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/04/germanys_stiff_upper_lip


These both are related; the previous minister of the interior has become minister of defence. He has a reputation for a cool approach to CT with no fear-mongering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_de_Maizi%C3%A8re

We didn't have a good minister of defence after Wörner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_defence_ministers) ('88).

davidbfpo
03-19-2011, 06:45 PM
Hat tip to ICSR blogsite for an interview with the FRG's most prominent expert on the topic of radicalisation in Germany:http://icsr.info/blog/Terror-in-Germany-An-interview-with-Guido-Steinberg

There is another thread on the recent Frankfurt Airport shooting.

Fuchs
03-19-2011, 09:05 PM
*shameless self-promotion*
On the German stance towards Libya (http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.com/2011/03/on-german-stance-towards-libya.html)
*/shameless self-promotion*

There's some strange talk about the recent UNSC vote in the world, so I did put out a blog post in an attempt to set the record (and point of view) straight.

davidbfpo
04-30-2011, 09:57 PM
A BBC report on three arrests made, from a cell of eight and I'd expect the report is all from government sources:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13248107

davidbfpo
05-12-2011, 09:48 PM
An interesting article and worth a read IMHO, especially on the terror threat before the German federal elections last year:http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,761391,00.html

Note the estimated flow of Jihadists to training camps in Pakistan.

Bill Moore
05-13-2011, 04:58 AM
As the article states this has been going a while, it woulld be interesting to see the estimated numbers of Europeans going to these camps from France, England, Netherlands, etc.

Also of interest would be how many are seriously pursuing jihad versus going to a summer adventure camp? Based on the number of attacks, etc. is clear not all those attending are serious jihadis. Just a thought.

davidbfpo
05-13-2011, 09:30 AM
As the article states this has been going a while, it woulld be interesting to see the estimated numbers of Europeans going to these camps from France, England, Netherlands, etc.

Also of interest would be how many are seriously pursuing jihad versus going to a summer adventure camp? Based on the number of attacks, etc. is clear not all those attending are serious jihadis. Just a thought.

Bill,

I know of no open source / published estimate of traffic to the camps from the UK and I'd be surprised if the French were open to this.

Valid point about
summer adventure camp and IIRC Guido Steinberg referred to that in an article I've linked here before. I've read a few papers on foreign fighters and only rarely is leaving the process of radicalisation / training mentioned. Try this for more:http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/pubPDFs/PolicyFocus101.pdf

Leopard 2A4
05-19-2011, 08:21 AM
Hello @ all...

I´d like to read some statements of US-, UK-, canadian- (what ever)guys who serve/served in Afghanistan about the germans in AFG.
What do you think, how we are doing our job there?

In my opinion we had to develop from a peace-army to a fighting-army during our engagement in AFG. We were not being prepared for that rising hostility there. We were sent there with the mission to build shools or fountains, but not for fighting. In the last four years these things changed. We had more and more troops in contact. We lost men and habe lots of wounded. PTSD became a big problem for us.

In the first contacts, our troops withdrew. But by the time our CO´s, our platoon-leaders and our team-leaders got sick of getting away. They decided to engeage the INS who attacked us, not the officers of staff in the HQ.

I remember a situation in Kunduz in 2009. A german patrol was under fire by an overwhelming enemy formation. A company of our Quick-Reaction-Force was in the near and decided to get there for support. I think the INS did not belived their eyes when the first APC apeared an fired some rounds of HE-ammo on them. And then the infantry went out and started to roll them off. This was the tourning point for our role in AFG. Now every leader has the opportunity to decide what to do in situations of contact. He can decide to engage or to withdrawl. And I do not remember one leader in the field who wants to get away without trying to kick some INS-asses.

How do you see us?

Greetz

uwew
05-22-2011, 12:02 PM
I posted a similar question some time ago and -like you - did not get an answer.

I think that it is out of politeness, that nobody on this forum wants to give his opinion about the German army. But what might this opinion be?

Let me give you some examples. Dr. Tony Korn, who works for U. S. state department, wrote in his recent article "From Mars to Minerva":
"Germany‘s subsequent performance in Afghanistan has shown that, for better and for worse, the German Way of War these days involves much beer drinking
(278 liters a year per soldier, to be exact) and very little fighting."
Pretty flattering.

ISAF command used KSK as prison guards, not as a fighting force.

McChrystal choose to publicly humiliate Oberst Klein after the Kundus bombing, as if a German officer was rather answering to the U. S media than to BMVG.

These facts allow a pretty good guess on what US diplomats and soldiers might think about Germany's contribution in Afghanistan, don't you think so?

Bob's World
05-22-2011, 12:37 PM
I would not blame this on the German Army. This is a reflection of Germany's government and a pretty clear metric that they do not perceive any great German interest's to be at stake.

Reportedly however, a significant portion of the foreign fighters who have traveled to Pakistan to support AQ are German. One must look at both of these circumstances together to understand either one, I suspect.

The US calls for our NATO allies to act against their interests in Afghanistan, and we then agonize over the results.

The US calls for Pakistan to act against her interests at home and in Afghanistan, and we agonize over the results.

The US most recently calls for Israel to act against her interests at home, and we agonize over the results.

I'll go out on a limb here, but perhaps, just maybe, US interests are not shared by every other state on the planet? I'll risk an other assumption, that perhaps even some of these allies have a clearer perspective on what our interests are and how they are best addressed than we do ourselves??

(How many times have you had to wake a friend up who could not see his own destructive behavior on some girl, job, etc issue that he had grown too close too? Or had the same done for you??)

We bully our friends and foes alike. We really should become a bit more self-aware and reassess that situation before it is too late.

Fuchs
05-22-2011, 01:21 PM
The beer story has long been debunked. Import in a period is not the same as consumption in a period, foreign soldiers and policemen and civilians consumed some of that beer as well and besides that, the average German soldier hardly gets drunk even by one liter in a day. So what's the problem? Beer is healthier than Cola.

JMA
05-22-2011, 02:26 PM
The beer story has long been debunked. Import in a period is not the same as consumption in a period, foreign soldiers and policemen and civilians consumed some of that beer as well and besides that, the average German soldier hardly gets drunk even by one liter in a day. So what's the problem? Beer is healthier than Cola.

Man, and to think I thought the Germans could put away the beers. Must be a continental problem because in the good old bad days of South West Africa (before Namibia) when our "kraut" friends arrived with the very cold schnaps on ice we knew the party was on.

Funny thing about schnaps... after a bottle one finds oneself able to sing along word perfect with all the German marching songs. Amazing stuff!

278 litres per year is the equivalent of 2 x 375ml bottles per soldier per day. Considering they are in base most (if not every) night the low beer consumption must be put down to operational consumption restrictions and/or logistic limitations.

uwew
05-22-2011, 03:09 PM
I would not blame this on the German Army. This is a reflection of Germany's government and a pretty clear metric that they do not perceive any great German interest's to be at stake.

IMHO the German government does not reflect about German interest.
They think about how something is going to influence the polls
or the next election. So they send soldiers abroad to be seen as acting
decisively, defending freedom and human rights or fighting global terrorism.
On the other hand, they do not want to take responsibility for casualties,
so force protection is the no1 priority for those forces they send.



Reportedly however, a significant portion of the foreign fighters who have traveled to Pakistan to support AQ are German. One must look at both of these circumstances together to understand either one, I suspect.

These fighters are mainly naturalized Turks and Arabs. I do not think that
their taking part in global jihadism is really influencing German policy in Afghanistan.

uwew
05-22-2011, 03:12 PM
The beer story has long been debunked. Import in a period is not the same as consumption in a period, foreign soldiers and policemen and civilians consumed some of that beer as well and besides that, the average German soldier hardly gets drunk even by one liter in a day. So what's the problem? Beer is healthier than Cola.

It does not matter whether this story is true or false. It is all about
perception. And Mr. Korn's perception seems to be that Germans in
Afghanistan are a bunch of useless drunks.

jcustis
05-22-2011, 05:15 PM
I don't have much in the way of a personal reflection on the subject, but many fighting men who have come across the Germans and posted their impressions elsewhere, considered them useless. I do understand how national policy factors in to operational actions, however. As was already mention, impressions can be a bitch...

I'd hazard a guess that not many American members have commented here so as to be charitable, or because they prefer to not comment on a divisive topic they have not seen firsthand.

Fuchs
05-22-2011, 08:27 PM
IMHO the German government does not reflect about German interest.
They think about how something is going to influence the polls
or the next election. So they send soldiers abroad to be seen as acting
decisively, defending freedom and human rights or fighting global terrorism.
On the other hand, they do not want to take responsibility for casualties,
so force protection is the no1 priority for those forces they send.

Participation in ISAF is rather a problem in elections than helpful in any way. A stable majority is against the involvement. Even party bases are largely against participation. It looks like stupid foreign policy gaming to me; keyword UNSC seat.


@jcustis:
Restrictions changed in iirc 2009. Previously, German troops in Afghanistan pretty much had restrictions as if they were policemen in Germany.



Overall it's a bit as for the Italians in 1940-43; neither did we prepare for this mess nor are we interested. It's no wonder that the troops don't gain a reputation for fierce activity. Moral is still > everything else.


I've been saying for a decade that this idiocy of so-called "out-of-area missions" is not indicative about our military potential. The Bundeswehr has deep in its institution what it takes to wage a war ferociously and send bolts of fear into opposing armies - but there's simply no reason to build and unleash this beast.
Tired bus drivers are a greater threat to us than all terrorists combined.
The whole ISAF thing is a mere self-inflicted cutting of our arms over and over again for no rational purpose.
The official ISAF mission that the government still refers to is an idiotic daydream.


Most Germans realise that it's not our defence that happens in AFG "Deutschland wird am Hindukusch verteidigt" - "Germany is being defended in the Hindu Kush"), but political adventurism if not braindead followership.
I personally are especially frustrated by the supposed attempts to lend "relevance" to NATO - as if keeping peace for its members in Europe wasn't a great mission and achievement already.


It does not matter whether this story is true or false. It is all about
perception. And Mr. Korn's perception seems to be that Germans in
Afghanistan are a bunch of useless drunks.

Some people are serious and others are mere morons.
The Americans are gifted in giving morons heir own national newspaper OP-Eds, radio talk shows, think tank jobs...
This does not mean that their opinion has any value.

jcustis
05-22-2011, 10:28 PM
The Americans are gifted in giving morons heir own national newspaper OP-Eds, radio talk shows, think tank jobs...

Unfortunately, every nation does that. We do not hold a monopoly in that regard. :D

Fuchs
05-22-2011, 11:04 PM
Well, in Germany I know only three persons who (still) punch far above their weight: An economist who's almost always 180° wrong, a super-arrogant bank CEO and a special interest minority guy who should never have recovered from the huge scandal he had a few years ago.

Here's no real think tank culture and no such pundit culture as in the U.S..


In the U.S., it appears as if for every tiny topic there's someone ready to offer a stupid opinion about it on national media. This turns such opinions into quite useless indicators.

Entropy
05-23-2011, 04:11 AM
Guess we should be thankful the so-called "national media" isn't nearly as important as it once was.

On the topic at hand I can't give an opinion since I had no interaction with the Germans during my time in Afghanistan.

carl
05-23-2011, 05:15 AM
In the first contacts, our troops withdrew. But by the time our CO´s, our platoon-leaders and our team-leaders got sick of getting away. They decided to engeage the INS who attacked us, not the officers of staff in the HQ.

This is very interesting. Do you mean the lower level leaders eventually decided to fight in spite of what the HQ officers were telling them to do?

Infanteer
05-23-2011, 04:46 PM
I can't offer anything either, although I've heard lots of second hand stories about some frustration in the early ISAF days (think 2004-ish) that we had working with other NATO countries and specifically Germany. One staff officer seemed to figure that the Euro contribution to NATO was a bunch of uniformed tourists.

I can see where this came from; as Fuchs alluded to the Afghan mission seems to be a political distraction for Germany as opposed to a top issue for us in the Anglosphere.

Fuchs post above from 0227 PM sounds pretty good to me - I can't see how the German Army, considering its professional and social history and the brains behind building the modern Bundeswehr, can have its potential judged by its performance in a sideshow in Afghanistan that it never really had the heart for.

Ken White
05-24-2011, 01:52 AM
This is very interesting. Do you mean the lower level leaders eventually decided to fight in spite of what the HQ officers were telling them to do?Most subordinate leaders use one of two techniques, generally type of task or validity of guidance determined. Either selective neglect or selective compliance. That's called exercising 'initiative.' We used to encourage it before we got all touchy feely and nambyish. Now it's not encouraged but few Armies would get much accomplished if that didn't happen constantly.

Alsultani
05-25-2011, 04:23 PM
First of all...

RIP to the German soldier killed here via IED today.

I have nothing but respect and good things to say about the German troopers. They volunteer to come here.

The Bundeswehr is downsizing. You have to serve 35 years to get retirement. Political survival is a strong instinct in staff officers and commanders, especially when you've invested so much time.

Markus
05-26-2011, 09:01 PM
From my desk thousands of kilometres from Afghanistan, my impression is that the Germans have been crippled by particularly strict Rules of Engagement. I think this is criminal. I have come to believe, mainly from the little I have read of the Germans' experience in Afghanistan, that limp-wristed ROE kill soldiers faster than a gung-ho mentality - not directly, as one might think, but through the crippling effect on morale. I am curious to know how the German soldiers over there feel about this.

As far as I know, this is the Germans' first excursion since WWII, so I don't think anyone should be too judgemental. But just as the Dutch seem to have used this opportunity to rebuild their mojo after the embarrassment of Bosnia, so too I think the Germans should have been given the opportunity to do the same. I feel that you have been let down by your politicians. However, from your post, Leopard, I gather that you have been building up your institutional confidence over there.

davidbfpo
05-26-2011, 09:31 PM
Markus,

You stated:
As far as I know, this is the Germans' first excursion since WWII

No, they have been active of late and is well documented:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr Note this cites seventy deaths up to February 2011.

I particularly remember their role in Kosovo, due to one news clip with a very assertive Bundeswehr officer telling a Serbian officer he had to leave. they were also the first military to acknowledge that the Bosnia-Herzegovina commitment would last a long time and started to build proper barracks.

Fuchs
05-26-2011, 10:01 PM
The previous missions weren't fighting missions despite some checkpoint shootout, though.

IIRC the Eastern Germans sent advisers to Angola and North Vietnam.
It's an almost completely unpublished chapter of German military history, and I have no details.

Leopard 2A4
05-27-2011, 08:56 AM
Hello @all...

no, I am not in kunduz right now. I am in good old germany!

The Beer Story: I had to smile while reading it. it´s true that we germans are allowed to drink two beer a day. Therefor we get so called ration cards. And two beers are not much. I think it´s ok! But believe me, you can find ways to get much more beer a day. You give the guys in the suply-chain some bugs and you get as much beer as you want to. An can remenmber at least five nights when I was drunk during my last tour. And there were a lot of americans drinking with us. As they recognized that the germans have beer they came everey evening and asked for some bottles. And on a few nights we sat togehther an had a lot o fun in unfunny environment...

The HQ-Story: In germany now, after the fuel-truck-strike by Col. Klein nearly every Officer in the HQ is affraid of ordering high intensively fire. They are afraid of killing civilians and getting fired or judged. So the troops outside the camp are often not enough secured in the background. It´s bad.
The german army has the so called "orders-tactic". That means you get an order to achieve a goal. And you can decide what is to do to achieve it. So the leaders in the field often decide to attack the enemy, while the career-type of officer in the HQ whants them to withdrawl. Just to avoid colateral casualties.

In germany, tactical dicisions are made by lawyers and not by military men...

RIP to the Cpt. who was killed by an IED on Wednesday...

davidbfpo
05-27-2011, 09:32 AM
Fuchs,

I've spent sometime with an ex-SADF soldier who fought in Angola and he has vivid memories of attacking a camp (SWAPO?) where their usual sweep tactic failed when hitting an entrenched, well defended position and lost several dead in minutes. After a full attack, with support (K-Cars), they found it was a platoon of East German paratroopers, who had been acting as "hands on" trainers and not one survived.

I have a vague recollection of a presence in Ethiopia during the Ogaden conflict and will check around one day.

Alsultani
05-27-2011, 10:35 AM
I spent some time with a German senior NCO last night comparing war stories. He is been in Kosovo, Macedonia, Congo and now here. He is tuned in and street smart.

I am a grad of US Army Infantry school at Benning and spent 5 years in US Mechanized Infantry during my younger years.

I have participated in platoon level tactical patrols with the German infantry protection company here. I have been very impressed and am well satisified with their force posture and ability to react effectively to contact. I would go out with them anywhere.

RTK
05-27-2011, 02:41 PM
I got to spend time at the Fuhrengsakademie on exchange for two weeks this past year as well as working closely with quite a few German General Staff officers. I am impressed by their attention to detail, their ability to undertand the problem quickly, and their near-mathematical ability to construct and deconstruct all phases of the operation to understand shortcomings and provide recommendations. I'd be happy with them on my flank.

Tukhachevskii
06-01-2011, 03:43 PM
I am impressed by their attention to detail, their ability to undertand the problem quickly, and their near-mathematical ability to construct and deconstruct all phases of the operation to understand shortcomings and provide recommendations.

Nice to know some things don't change. Beck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Beck) would have been proud. It's a good thing so many Wehrmacht era officers were enrolled into the Bundeswehr so that traditions could find new bearers.

davidbfpo
06-24-2011, 05:40 PM
A fascinating article and summarised as:
Austrian authorities have detained an alleged Islamist extremist from Berlin as he was traveling back from Afghanistan, where he had undergone terror training. The 26-year-old had boasted about attacking "infidels," but it is unclear whether he was embarking on a terror plot or simply heading home after becoming disillusioned with his cause.

Link:http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,769405,00.html

Curious the potential / actual role of Austria, a small country at the "crossroads of Europe" and IIRC with little experience of terrorist attacks for a long time (OPEC ministers seized way back in the 1970's).

Old Eagle
06-24-2011, 09:01 PM
Yeah, Carlos did his thing, but there were later attacks by the RAF and a guest appearance by PFLP-GC (as I recall) at the El Al counter at the aprt. In fact, last time I lived there, the Austrian police ended up killing a RAF alumnus and wounding another. The former terror pair tried to knock over a store or bank and ended up in a shoot out.

Been following this issue in various Austrian sources. It is absolutely unclear exactly what is going on. Guess we'll have to let it play itself out a little further.

JMA
07-15-2011, 09:52 PM
The previous missions weren't fighting missions despite some checkpoint shootout, though.

IIRC the Eastern Germans sent advisers to Angola and North Vietnam.
It's an almost completely unpublished chapter of German military history, and I have no details.

Fuchs, found reference to this article in Der Spiegel circa 1980 - Honeckers Afrika-Korps (http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-21113109.html)

http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/titel/SP/1980/10/312/titel.jpg

If there is no free download available from there you can get it here (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5AXAN32H).

Seems to me that at that time there were 1,000 East Germans in Angola and 600 in Mozambique.

Perhaps you can give a short summary of the article as the translation I have seen is poor.

Fuchs
07-15-2011, 10:53 PM
East Germany, 1980:

# 2700 German advisors and trainers in Africa (2 Arabian and 5 sub-Saharan countries)
# effective, disciplined in comparison to Cubans, direct training instead of leadership positions as Soviet trainers
# planned Ethiopian offensive against Eritrean rebels
# training army, air forces, domestic intelligence services
# some KIA
# also training Africans in East Germany, including police
# up to 200 million Mark annual military equipment exports, especially infantry equipment
# 60's: Focus on upcoming powers (rebels) who might recognise East Germany as a state when in power
# 70's more geostrategic (supposedly); countries with useful location and neighbourhood
# some payments of East German supplies in form of raw materials (the East Germans had difficulties to import world market goods because of their currency and because the Warsaw Pact/COMECON absorbed most exports)

Plus the usual childish who's-got-more-friends competition.


I looked a bit and found this statement of the German military history research agency;
http://www.mgfa-potsdam.de/html/einsatzunterstuetzung/downloads/1_wwaestorkmann.pdf
They stress that the East Germans had no combat missions, try to downplay the missions after confirming them.


West Germany did afaik also train non-allied foreigners in German language and in military skills before 1990 (100% in West Germany itself).

davidbfpo
08-31-2011, 11:04 AM
An update on the attack at Frankfurt airport, March 2010:
A Kosovo man has told a German court he shot dead two American servicemen at Frankfurt airport but said he did not understand why he had acted as he did....

"What I did was wrong, but I cannot undo what I did," Uka told the court in Frankfurt at the opening of his trial. Uka said he carried out the attack after watching a video purporting to show US servicemen raping a Muslim girl in Iraq.

In fact, the video was a scene from Brian De Palma's anti-war film, Redacted.

"I thought what I saw in that video, these people would do in Afghanistan," Uka said.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14727975

A strange case of a 'Lone Wolf' attacker, although maybe not so unexpected given all the propaganda in the public domain.

Bill Moore
08-31-2011, 01:57 PM
Perception is reality in the mind.

dc3freightdog
09-01-2011, 11:55 AM
Auf den Punkt gebracht,

Exellent post, right on. It is a cultural think. If you grew up in Germany you were looked down if you were interested in guns or military. Military insterlations are named after deserters. What you expect? At school we had flyers providing information how do avoid being drafted. The guild indoctrination for the lost war was part of your school curiculum. You only got a good "Abi" if you wrote the right esseay about Anne Frank.
It will probably take a while untill Gemany realizes the situation. Samual Hunnington was right when he wrote about cultural falt lines.

davidbfpo
10-14-2011, 06:21 PM
Caught this low-key item on the BBC:
German police have discovered an explosive device on a train line in the Berlin area - the fourth day in a row that devices have been found in and around the German capital. So far, there have been eight incidents of explosive devices being found. Police suspect a left-wing group of planting the firebombs, some of them on high-speed railway lines.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15287806

The BBC links this other story:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14585600

This appears to be the first, possible violent campaign in Western Europe by those opposed to a role in Afghanistan. From this armchair it could be one person or a very small group.

Fuchs
10-14-2011, 06:31 PM
Incendiary devices (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-73968.html), not explosive devices.

Some people (allegedly young left-wing radicals, but more likely just terribly bored people) have been playing arsonists on upper class cars in Berlin and elsewhere for years (highly publicised and thus fuelled by public attention only in Berlin).

These dozens of incendiary devices were probably just a variation of that vandalism.

davidbfpo
10-24-2011, 04:30 PM
A BBC report which explains:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15429744

Which cites:
"He wasn't motivated by politics but rather social envy," said senior police official Oliver Stepien. "He said in essence: 'I've got debts, my life stinks and others with fancy cars are better off and they deserve this'."

Earlier this month, the Berlin railway system was hit by arson attacks. Explosive devices were placed in a number of locations, including at least one on a high-speed rail track. A previously unknown left-wing group, calling itself the Hekla Reception Committee, said it had planted the devices.

davidbfpo
11-14-2011, 08:45 PM
There is a separate thread 'Germany - terrorism/military operations/America' which provides some background, but on a quick scan the focus is on the Islamic threat, so today's news deserves a new thread. Old thread:http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=5483

BBC News:
New arrest as Germany links neo-Nazis to 10 murders...Police in Germany have made a second arrest after the dramatic discovery of evidence linking a self-styled Nazi group to the murder of nine foreigners...The murders were committed in several German cities ...between 2000 and 2007.

The group only came to light this week after one alleged member surrendered and two others killed themselves....She handed herself in on Tuesday after allegedly blowing up the flat she had rented in the eastern town of Zwickau.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15714084

The murky world of intelligence gathering appears:
Allegations surfaced Sunday that one or more members of the group, which called itself the National Socialist Underground, may have worked as confidential informants for Germany’s domestic intelligence service.

The NYT story has other details:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/14/world/europe/neo-nazis-suspected-in-wave-of-crimes-in-germany.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=world

Neo-Nazi activities in Germany are a controversial subject, some press coverage has referred to a lack of political will in responding and this evening's BBC Radio 4 News the Bundestag made this the first item and listened to the Chancellor's report. See:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15727841

No doubt some will describe the undetected crime series as an example of "failing to join the dots".

We shall to watch what happens.

Fuchs
11-14-2011, 09:23 PM
It's still a bit early to discuss this. Judging by the press reports, even the police is busy trying to form an accurate picture.

They had apparently been unable to connect multiple violent crimes over a decade to a common theme because the 'terrorists' (judging by the news, "sociopaths" would be as accurate) did not publish anything.

davidbfpo
11-14-2011, 11:19 PM
Fuchs,

Agreed. It is rather a strange phenomena for political killers to act and not publicise their actions. Which hardly makes them terrorists either. Plus the traditional difficulties for law enforcement of linking crimes and linking suspects to crimes. Add in keeping the secret within such a small group, who appear to be all bound together and living together until the end.

Hardly "Lone Wolves" of course, more like a pack of wolves.

It will be interesting to see what books etc they have been reading.

Reminds me of the Greek November 17th group, who lasted from 1975 to 2002:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_November They were finally ended when one member was captured and the "dominoes" fell.

Odd that in Olso Brevik made a court appearance today:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15720289

bourbon
11-15-2011, 05:29 PM
The murky world of intelligence gathering appears:

German Lawmakers to Probe Neo-Nazi Cell as Agencies Questioned (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-15/german-lawmakers-to-probe-neo-nazi-cell-as-agencies-questioned.html), by Patrick Donahue. Bloomberg, 15 November 2011.

Nov. 15 (Bloomberg) -- German officials pledged to find out how an underground neo-Nazi cell could have carried out murders, attacks and bank robberies for over a decade as the widening scandal turned to the role played by domestic intelligence.

Lawmakers who oversee intelligence matters in the lower house of parliament will investigate what security agents knew about an organization calling itself the National Socialist Underground, a group of at least three extremists that has in the past week been accused of carrying out 10 primarily race- motivated killings throughout Germany since 2000.

Oppermann confirmed that an undercover agent was at the crime scene of an April 2006 shooting of an Internet cafe owner in the western city of Kassel, though the agent told authorities he’d left before the killing took place.

davidbfpo
11-15-2011, 11:24 PM
A German report, added in case a nearer to the scene report helps:http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,797572,00.html

Plus a graphic for background:http://www.spiegel.de/flash/flash-27425.html

Firn
11-16-2011, 05:36 PM
A German report, added in case a nearer to the scene report helps:http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,797572,00.html

Plus a graphic for background:http://www.spiegel.de/flash/flash-27425.html

I'm usually not the guy to jumb conclusions, but it really seems to be an affair with many questions for many persons in the Bund and the Lnder, in the politics and the police. Especially the role of the Verfassungsschutz and it's V-men. It is difficult to declare as terrorism for the reason given by others, but maybe it is a posthumous one which can not be directly tackled by the police as most of the terrorist cell are already dead.

The nickname "little Adolf" for a key V-men of the whole affair has a dark shade perhaps not know by many. The orignal worked as a V-men in the chaotic years after the end of the Great war. Maybe his role as V-man was well know to important others in the Neo-movement?

davidbfpo
11-16-2011, 06:49 PM
Firn,

Thank you for the update.

Verfassungsschutz is the German word for 'Protection of the Constitution' or internal security.

I am aware that both Federal and Lander (State) bodies are intelligence agencies and do not have powers of arrest & search. Due to the constitution, history and politics even some of their information gathering is limited, so placing a greater reliance on the relationship with the police.

Fuchs
11-17-2011, 12:10 PM
Some background:

Right wing terror was an invention of the post-WWI period (1919). The leftists attempted revolutions, were defeated in civil-war like scenes on the streets and then the right wingers proceeded to try some coup d'etats. The army was largely neutral, but paramilitary right-wing militias (Freikorps) participated.

The open combat of the 1919-1923 period subsided after the hyperinflation, but right and left wing continued (sporadic) violence.

During this time it became obvious that the establishment's police and courts (old national-conservative men) were biased.
The police was effectively in its work against left-wing criminals and the judges preferred maximum sentences on them.
Against right wing violence (even homicides) there was rarely an arrest and there were even cases where right wing murderers only had to pay a fine.

This (and some unpleasant experiences in the early Federal Republic history till the '68s) led to the phrase 'auf dem rechten Auge blind' (blind on the right eye.
This phrase has already been revived in regard to the current scandal, becuase it appears to be the only explanation that survives Occam's Razor.
The quantity of cases of ineffectiveness on part of police and intelligence agents in this case is so great that randomness is a poor explanation.

---------------------

The whole thing is terribly embarrassing on many levels, for
multiple states, the federal level, multiple parties in power, multiple types of agencies were failing.
On top of that it plays into the hands of the left-wing Antifa (anti-fascists, a very wide definition) and multiple minority groups (Muslim groups are already complaining that they were under scrutiny, but the group of right wingers killed more than Muslim terrorists in Germany and it wasn't even known).

It's also amazing how in a country of increased domestic espionage, a need to register at the county when you move your appartment and so on at least one of the group was able to live in the underground for more than 10 years. On top of that, the Verfassungsschutz surely had to spot him sometime in this period.



I'd also like to point out that during the roughly ten years of right wing killings, several bus drivers killed more people than the whole right wing. Or left wing. Or Muslims.
Bus drivers are scary as a group by comparison!
(Well, either that of these errorists aren't exactly scary. Make your choice!)


Sven <--- still using busses

Firn
11-17-2011, 07:14 PM
It seems that the various agencies were not only blind on the right eye, but also deaf on the right ear.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/neonazi-mordserie-auch-boese-menschen-kennen-lieder-11532117.html


„Dönerkiller“ heißt der [2010] Song aus der CD „Adolf Hitler lebt!“, in dem die Band die Mordserie an acht türkischen und einem griechischen Geschäftsmann klar als zusammenhängende, ausländerfeindliche Taten eines „Dönerkillers“ feiert und sich daran ergötzt, dass die Behörden einem Phantom nachjagen: „Neun mal hat er es jetzt schon getan“, die Ermittler „drehen durch, weil man ihn nicht findet. Er kommt, er tötet und verschwindet“.

"Gigi und die braunen Stadtmusikanten" ( somewhat a pun on the Bremer Stadtmusikanten) made a song in 2010 which it was taken for granted that the various killing were committed by a Dönerkiller which spreads fear in the Kebabs (turkish fast food rest.) which was not sated with 9 (victims). This band is said to be among the most prominent extreme right-wing bands.


Die mythisch-musikalische Überhöhung der drei Mitglieder der Terrorzelle wiederum hatte schon kurz nach ihrem Abtauchen in die Illegalität begonnen. In einem Lied aus dem Jahr 1999 thematisiert das rechtsextremistische Duo „Eichenlaub“ das Verschwinden der drei. „Eichenlaub“ war direkt mit der Kameradschaft „Thüringer Heimatschutz“ verbunden, aus der Böhnhardt, Mundlos und Frau Z. kamen. „Ihr hattet wohl keine andere Wahl“, heißt es in dem Lied. Und: „Der Kampf geht weiter, für unser deutsches Vaterland.“

A small band "Eichenlaub" (Oak being the "German" tree) linked to the Thuringian Homeguard from which the three suspects come, sung about them and their disappearing. "You had probably no other chance", and "The fight goes on, for our German fatherland".

----

Of course it is pretty difficult to know if rumours by good comrades caused dear Gigi to write such a wonderful song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q25l3zG4oAs) or if it was just hopeful speculation. And with hindsight it is easy to connect the dots. But it shows that it was thinkable to view the seemingly unlinked killings in such a specific context.

It really is, as Fuchs wrote, a big scandal and pretty hard to argue that it was a massive failure on many levels. Maybe the most lentinent view on the whole business is that the Verfassungsschutz felt that they had such good info about the various Neonazis groups, especially with the many V-men, that they could do nothing of such scale without their knowledge.

P.S: This guy featured (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRL5Z1k60tg) in the propaganda material compiled by the trio.

jmm99
11-18-2011, 07:03 PM
From Bobby Chesney (Lawfare), Prosecuting Conspiracies Before Attacks Occur: Comparing German to American Law in the El-Kabir Case (http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/11/conspiracy-kabir/):


Last week I noted that the United States seeks the extradition of Abdeladim El-Kabir, a man currently held in Germany based on allegations that he was part of an al Qaeda-related cell trained in Pakistan and now planning a bombing somewhere in Europe. I posed the question why the Germans would be willing to extradite him rather than prosecute him themselves. The answer may turn on the particularities of the elements of the offense with which El-Kabir was charged.

My understanding is that he is charged there with “membership in a terrorist organization,” in violation of section 129a of the German Penal Code (http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/StGB.htm#129a). That law provides, in relevant part:


(1) Whoever forms an organization, the objectives or activity of which are directed towards the commission of:

1. murder, manslaughter or genocide (Sections 211,212 or 220a);

2. crimes against personal liberty in cases under Sections 239a or 239b; or

3. crimes under Section 305a or crimes dangerous to the public in cases under Sections 306 to 306c or 307 subsections (1) to (3), 308 subsections (1) to (4), 309 subsections (1) to (5), 313, 314 or 315 subsections (1),3 or 4, 316b subsections (1) or (3), or 316c subsections (1) to (3), or whoever participates in such an organization as a member,

shall be punished with imprisonment from one year to ten years.



(3) Whoever supports an organization indicated in subsection (1) or recruits for it, shall be punished with imprisonment from six months to five years.



The key point is that prosecutors must show that El-Kabir either formed or supported an organization directed toward the commission of one of the listed offenses, which in this case would include murder.

Now it may seem at first blush that this would be simple enough, since the reporting is focused on the idea that these guys were planning to carry out a bombing. But there is a spectrum that runs from having the general idea of carrying out such an attack, through the preliminary steps of preparing and selecting a target, and culminating in the attempt - and the million dollar question here is where German law attaches liability on that spectrum for this purpose.

I’m no expert on German law, but my impression is that it requires at least some degree of specificity as to the particular target, as opposed to attaching liability at the point where the men simply agree to carry out a bombing against someone. If that is correct, it is easy to see how it might make it hard to convict these men. American conspiracy law, in contrast, would permit prosecution so long as the men had agreed to carry out an unlawful attack, even if the particulars were to be determined later. This, in short, may explain why the U.S. is stepping in with an extradition request.

Chesney's 2007 Article, Beyond Conspiracy? Anticipatory Prosecution and the Challenge of Unaffiliated Terrorism (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=932608), explains the scope of US law in 2006:


Abstract:

How early does criminal liability attach along the continuum between planning and committing a terrorist act? And in light of the answer to that question, have we struck an appropriate balance between the benefits of prevention and the off-setting costs in terms of a potentially-increased rate of false-positives and foregone opportunities to gather additional intelligence and evidence? These questions are pressing, particularly in light of statements from senior government officials that the Justice Department will be forward-leaning in its interpretation of its anticipatory-prosecution powers. My aim in this article is to establish a shared understanding regarding the first question in order to facilitate an intelligent debate regarding the second.

In some respects, this is well-trodden ground. I and others have written previously of the government's sweeping capacity under 18 U.S.C. Section 2339B to prosecute potential terrorists who can be linked in some fashion to a designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs). But it is becoming clear that the utility of Section 2339B is eroding in the face of several developments, most notably the ongoing decentralization of what might be called the global jihad movement. Simply put, it is becoming less common for a suspected terrorist to be vulnerable to a Section 2339B FTO-support prosecution. What, then, is the government's capacity for anticipatory prosecution when confronted with unaffiliated terrorism?

Setting aside the possibility of a pretextual charge based on some unrelated offense by a suspect, the basic options are a conspiracy charge under a terrorism-related provision such as 18 U.S.C. Section 956(a) or a charge under 18 U.S.C. Section 2339A, the lesser-known of the two material-support statutes. The article identifies the earliest plausible point of intervention under both options, and examines the extent to which indictments in post-9/11 prosecutions have stayed within these boundaries. My most notable conclusion, perhaps, is that Section 2339A can be and arguably has been used to create a capacious form of inchoate liability in circumstances that otherwise would have to be charged under the relatively-demanding standards of attempt.

If anything, the scope of US law has expanded from 2006 to the present (thread, Terrorism in the USA:threat & response (merged thread) (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=8828) ) and its penalties are stiffer than the German law.

Regards

Mike

davidbfpo
11-19-2011, 09:20 PM
As expected journalists have descended upon Zwichau, ostensibly to get first-hand information, there is some in this article, although this section struck me as reflecting media briefings:


...if the German authorities know the significance of the logo, they are not saying yet. But it is clear that they have much more information on the gang. The trio first came to their attention in the mid 1990s, when they belonged to a far-Right Kameradschaft, or comradeship group, in the east German town of Jena, where they all grew up.

Germany's equivalent of MI5 had 24 fat files on the group's activities, including details of Bhnhardt's arrest for hanging a Jewish mannequin from a highway bridge, and Miss Zschpe being charged with hate speech for having a Monopoly board with a "concentration camp" instead of a "jail" square.
But in 1998, after being accused of a pipe bomb plot, the three went on the run remaining free despite what German police claimed was an "extensive manhunt".

Some believe that Germany's recent experience of Islamic terrorists in particular the so-called Hamburg cell, who were key to the September 11 attacks led the country's security services to overlook domestic threats

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/8901815/Pink-Panther-murders-see-Nazi-ghosts-return-to-haunt-Germany.html

bourbon
11-20-2011, 03:42 AM
What is the point committing symbolic terrorism (murdering Turkish workers) if a cause or group is not claimed (which these guys didn't do)?

Turkish workers are not terrorized if they do not know that the victims were killed just for being Turkish workers. To borrow from my signature quote: “terrorism [is] almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries”.

davidbfpo
11-20-2011, 11:49 AM
Bourbon,

Yes, it is. I'm still trying to recall another extremist group that have used the tactic 'Survival without publicity'.

Perhaps their motivation was purely internal within the group. It appears some of the communities affected were saying "It could be the Nazis you know", but this appears to have gained no traction or acceptance, either officially or from the media.

Given the antagonism towards some communities - not solely immigrants - in the political extremes across Europe, one wonders could there be similar violent crimes series where those responsible use 'Survival without publicity'.

Bill Moore
11-20-2011, 07:01 PM
Turkish workers are not terrorized if they do not know that the victims were killed just for being Turkish workers. To borrow from my signature quote: “terrorism [is] almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries”.

Interesting points, since terrorism is normally viewed as violent political messaging, so are the crimes committed by this group terrorism or rather just murder? When the KKK was conducting similiar hate crimes in the U.S. they made quite a show out of it to spread terror, so in my view it was clearly terrorism. If a group of "true believers" get together to kill Jews, Turks, Drug runners, hookers, or whatever group they have a beef against and they don't advertise it, or execute the murders in a way to propagate a message of fear is it is terrorism or hate crime without terrorism being involved?

Firn
11-20-2011, 07:51 PM
Interesting points, since terrorism is normally viewed as violent political messaging, so are the crimes committed by this group terrorism or rather just murder? When the KKK was conducting similiar hate crimes in the U.S. they made quite a show out of it to spread terror, so in my view it was clearly terrorism. If a group of "true believers" get together to kill Jews, Turks, Drug runners, hookers, or whatever group they have a beef against and they don't advertise it, or execute the murders in a way to propagate a message of fear is it is terrorism or hate crime without terrorism being involved?

Perhaps it was a bloody show for their right-wing comrades? Some sort of "(not so) lonely heroism" for the good of the brown fatherland? Some perverted Mutprobe (boyish "test of courage") to be circulated among the like-minded in childish comics starring the Pink Panther? The lack of publicity, the right-wing songs and the wider net of supporters as suspected before might indicate that.

Fuchs
11-21-2011, 11:12 AM
Gang initiation ritual is not applicable.

The far right wing in Germany is a filter that only keeps back the dumbest people and a couple people who have mediocre intellect and seize on the opportunity to look smart in comparison and lead someone.

It's furthermore known that many people in far right wing groups are hired by domestic intelligence for reporting.

So basically if you tell your own (brown) people, you could just as well send a propagand avideo to a TV station. That bunch of loudmouths with little brain is not going to keep a secret.


My guess is on simple sociopaths. They probbaly justified their criminal live with some ideological BS about fighting against some BS threat.

bourbon
11-21-2011, 04:41 PM
Interesting points, since terrorism is normally viewed as violent political messaging, so are the crimes committed by this group terrorism or rather just murder?
Without knowing more it looks more like crime and murder, and less like terrorism.

If a group of "true believers" get together to kill Jews, Turks, Drug runners, hookers, or whatever group they have a beef against and they don't advertise it, or execute the murders in a way to propagate a message of fear is it is terrorism or hate crime without terrorism being involved?
Hate crime or just crime. Serial killers frequently have a pattern of victims that will fall into a group, does that make them terrorists? I think more than target profile and selection needs to be considered when calling someone a terrorist.

bourbon
11-21-2011, 05:00 PM
It's furthermore known that many people in far right wing groups are hired by domestic intelligence for reporting.

So basically if you tell your own (brown) people, you could just as well send a propagand avideo to a TV station. That bunch of loudmouths with little brain is not going to keep a secret.
Which makes me wonder if they even showed the videos to anyone else at all?

If their videos implicate them in the murders as articles say, they were would have been exposed to both informants and cyber-monitoring if they disseminated the video over an internet forum. In addition to domestic intelligence there may be private groups that conduct these activities as well; such is the case in the US.

Which would lend credence to:

My guess is on simple sociopaths. They probbaly justified their criminal live with some ideological BS about fighting against some BS threat.

davidbfpo
11-29-2011, 04:20 PM
Catching up on my reading, hat tip to Legal War on Terror's weekly mailing for the pointers.

This paragraph appears almost standard crime reporting and with the caveat 'innocent till proven guilty':
Another suspect has been arrested in the eastern German city of Jena in connection with a series of murders linked to neo-Nazis. The 36-year-old is accused of being an accessory to murder and of attempted murder.

Not exactly standard reporting IMHO:
Prosecutors believe the 36-year-old German helped provide the group with money and weapons, allowing the cell to live undetected for years. Ralf W. has reportedly been active in right-wing extremist circles in the state of Thuringia since 1995. In 2002, he became the deputy head of the far-right National Democratic Party (NPD) in Thuringia.

From:http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15563635,00.html

The NPD is a small political party, with no Federal MPs, it does have elected member sin two Lander (State) assemblies and has long been recognised by German internal intelligence agencies as a threat.

A short background article:http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE7AN1YE20111124?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true

AdamG
02-02-2012, 05:12 PM
Haven't seen this in any other threads, might as well drop it here :


FRANKFURT, Germany — Both prosecutors and defense attorneys discounted testimony Thursday by a journalist who said he had gathered evidence showing that the man charged with killing two U.S. airmen at Frankfurt Airport last March had been in Bosnia-Herzegovina the previous summer and was likely associated with radical Islamists.

Arid Uka, charged with two counts of murder and three counts of attempted murder in the March 2 shooting of U.S. airmen as they boarded a bus at Frankfurt Airport, was to have been sentenced last month. But the publication of an article in a Stuttgart newspaper alleging that Uka had been seen in the central Bosnian town of Zenica in the summer of 2010 led the court to call the journalist to testify.

http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/germany/attorneys-on-both-sides-discount-reporter-s-testimony-in-airport-shooting-trial-1.167515

Fuchs
02-02-2012, 07:16 PM
An interesting consequence of the NSU pseudo terror affair is that the Verfassungsschutz ('constitution security'; 17 interior intelligence services; 1 per state + a federal one) has come under scrutiny.

It has spent more attention on the left wing (PDS, later "Die Linke", a leftist party in many German parliaments) than on the right wing (mostly NPD). It was first accused of being blind on the right eye (and a certain blindness cannot be contested given its failure) and now the discussion turns to the ridiculous list of "Die LINKE" members of parliament who are under observation by the Verfassungsschutz (don't remember if this discussion is about state or federal level, I cannot distinguish their characters anyway).
The agency observes 27 of them, apparently all of them are rather reformers and moderates in their party.

It's not in the news as interpretation, but my interpretation and probably the implication in most reports is that the observation was more aimed at discovering something that could hurt politically successful leftists rather than about observing leftist radicals who are actually dangerous.
The former is obviously not the job of the Verfassungsschutz, but of journalists.

Fuchs
05-10-2012, 10:39 PM
I cannot stand the "COIN comes home to assist policing" thread, so I won't post this there.


Here's something that's no doubt more inspiring than warfare for policemen:

boingboing.net: German police fired 85 bullets in 2011 (http://boingboing.net/2012/05/09/german-police-fired-85-bullets.html)

google translate version of original German message (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fpanorama%2Fjustiz% 2Fpolizei-schoss-2011-seltener-im-dienst-a-832037.html)

Six persons killed, 15 wounded by police gunshots in an entire year.
Population: 81.8 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)

tequila
05-11-2012, 12:26 AM
Itwilllbeok sez, "According to the German Police University police officers used exactly 85 bullets in 2011 - 49 warning shots, 36 shots on suspects. 15 persons were injured, 6 were killed. Germany has a population of about 80 million. (This does only take into account shots in connection with crimes. There were an additional 9000 shots on dangerous, sick and injured animals)."

It's okay, Germany, Ricky Bobby is all over your problem (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keP4MBI1taY).

Backwards Observer
05-11-2012, 12:34 AM
Humor.

Chris Rock - Bullet Control (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZrFVtmRXrw) - Youtube

slapout9
05-11-2012, 06:53 AM
49 warning shots!? We don't do that hear.

Fuchs
05-16-2012, 02:35 PM
In einer Befragung des Meinungsforschungsinstituts YouGov sprachen sich 65,3 Prozent der Befragten fr eine Beendigung des Kampfeinsatzes vor dem vereinbarten Termin Ende 2014 aus. Nur 20,5 Prozent waren dafr, an dem innerhalb der NATO abgestimmten Zeitplan festzuhalten.
http://www.sat1.de/news/politik/deutsche-fuer-schnellen-afghanistan-abzug-102469

In a poll of [...] YouGov expressed 65.3 per cent of the polled for an end of the combat mission prior to the agreed date of end of 2014. Only 20.5 per cent favoured to stick to the [...] timetable.


The German government is still ruling against its own people in regard to Afghanistan, and the mass media is a passive supporter of this behaviour.

davidbfpo
06-15-2012, 01:25 PM
An ICSR comment on recent German law enforcement action, although described as a:
massive crackdown

There is as yet little detail on whether charges followed and what the scale of the action was:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18439914

(Added) More details on:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9331834/British-suspected-Islamic-terrorist-arrested-in-Germany.html

It does raise the question whether such megaphone users are just vocal or the activity is part of the "conveyor belt" to violence:
This emerging network is often dismissed as harmless because of its megaphone tactics. However, every new case makes it more obvious that many of its members are linked to Al Qaeda or go on to become involved in terrorism.

Link:http://icsr.info/publications/newsletters/1339691206ICSRInsightGermanArrestsandtheRiseoftheM egaphoneJihadists.pdf

Fuchs
06-15-2012, 01:50 PM
Painting them as criminals and disrupting their 'business' by confiscating computers and paperworks are probably the main effects of such a crackdown.


It's notable that the state has allies in form of moderate muslims who get into uncomfortable situations because of the extremists. They, too, had one more occasion to lay out their position.

davidbfpo
07-25-2012, 01:54 PM
A recommended German article, although the Google translation is not perfect, on a current trial in Germany:http://ojihad.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/wir-werden-helden/

What is of note is how the primary suspect was identified:
The profiles of hundreds of violent Islamists were analyzed. In the end, a man stuck in the grid....

bourbon
11-20-2012, 04:56 PM
Incendiary Informants - Did German Intelligence Fuel Far-Right Extremism? (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-police-document-says-informants-fuelled-far-right-extremism-a-865461.html), Spiegel Online, 11/06/2012.


A secret paper written by senior police officers paints a disastrous picture of Germany's domestic intelligence agency. It suggests that the service may have actually strengthened the country's far-right scene through its large network of far-right informants.

Very interesting, but painful to read.

davidbfpo
11-24-2012, 09:27 PM
A superb FT article on the context for the neo-Nazi or extreme nationalist fringe in Germany and those who use violence:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/dfda3010-3438-11e2-9ae7-00144feabdc0.html

The article asks:
What does the case reveal about the rise of the far right in the former GDR?.....the affair has also revived an equally fundamental concern: why has far right ideology gained a foothold in the former GDR, attracting young people who emerged from the wreckage of communism?

Interesting angle in:
Bernd Wagner was an East German policeman who began hunting neo-Nazis in the East in 1964, long before unification, when he was based at Berlin’s infamous police headquarters in the Alex#an#d#er#platz.....now runs an organisation called Exit from a nondescript office in east Berlin, dedicated to helping young people escape from the far-right “scene”. “We are a contact group for people who want to break with their ideology,” he says. “We’re here to help them give up.” It is not an easy task. “Don’t think these are just young people. Today’s activists are 25 to 55. They have ‘recruiters’ in the music scene, the clubs and culture scene. It’s a spider’s web right across Germany.

Fuchs
11-24-2012, 09:46 PM
Keep in mind that this far right is without actual political influence, a minority in just about everything (including at their own demonstrations, which are always outnumbered by counter-demonstrations) and are rarely taken seriously due to their let's say 'lack of intellectualism'.


The real risk of right extremist or authoritarian ideas exerting influence is to be found in the influence of closet right wingers in the conservative parties (especially in Bavaria) and in Schill's now-defunct Hamburg party in Hamburg.

The overt right extremist subculture (we have seemingly hundreds of subcultures in Germany!) is below marginalised in German society in all but a few rural areas of Saxony.

Just an example: This is the NPD's (their party) equivalent of the RNC/DNC:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/NPD-Hauptquartier.jpg/220px-NPD-Hauptquartier.jpg


So no matter how much is being told and written about their recruiting network and subculture; keep in mind it's being written because people are sensitive to the need to keep extremists marginalised at the far edge of society.

davidbfpo
12-13-2012, 11:25 PM
I'd not heard of this incident, but ICSR @ Kings College, London has provided a short commentary and asks:
The wider significance of this incident will become clear once investigators have determined whether Abdirazak had succeeded in joining a foreign terrorist group, received training, and acted on its behalf. If not, this incident might be a further example of the strategy of “lone actor” terrorism, which has been actively promoted by Al Qaeda.

Link:http://icsr.info/2012/12/icsr-insight-attempted-bomb-attack-in-bonngermany/

Fuchs
12-14-2012, 01:13 AM
A recommended German article, although the Google translation is not perfect, on a current trial in Germany:http://ojihad.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/wir-werden-helden/

What is of note is how the primary suspect was identified:

And as usual, the story shows how stupid and full of errors these errorists are.
Four Kings-like idiots.

Meanwhile, a man died in a car crash involving a bus, and about a dozen people were injured. Traffic accidents involving buses totally overpower the lethality and threat value of errorists in Germany and for Germans. (http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.de/2010/11/those-dangerous-bus-drivers.html)

So who's going to do something about unsafe buses !?

davidbfpo
01-20-2013, 12:06 PM
Only a few months remain for a parliamentary inquiry into failures by German security agencies over a series of murders carried out by the NSU right-wing terrorists. But important evidence is still missing.A short update and surprise, surprise:
Even in the agencies, there's a clear admission that the right hand did not know what the left hand was doing.
Link:http://www.dw.de/time-runs-out-for-far-right-terrorism-inquiry/a-16529520

SWJ Blog
03-01-2013, 09:10 AM
West German Law Enforcement Intelligence Analysis and Reaction to the Red Army Faction (http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/west-german-law-enforcement-intelligence-analysis-and-reaction-to-the-red-army-faction)

Entry Excerpt:



--------
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davidbfpo
06-04-2013, 09:38 PM
A new book by a respected author; this is the publisher's website:http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-15992-0/german-jihad

davidbfpo
08-24-2013, 10:01 PM
An interesting report, although probably familiar to Germans. 'German neo-Nazi trial gives insight into secret life of Beate Zschpe', sub-titled:
To her neighbours in the quiet German town of Zwickau, she was the "friendly, sociable and generous" young woman who liked to drop by for a glass of prosecco. To her comrades on the German far Right, she was a smart, assertive and violent member of their secret terrorist militia.

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10263998/German-neo-Nazi-trial-gives-insight-into-secret-life-of-Beate-Zschape.html

davidbfpo
12-09-2015, 10:37 AM
The group of neo-nazis responsible for racially motivated murders across Germany has appeared here before, last post is above, and then dropped out of sight. The BBC has two short reports and so I learmt:
Beate Zschaepe has been on trial for more than two years.Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35039672 and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35049586

Update: what did the lady say in court? See:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/09/german-woman-on-trial-for-neo-nazi-murders-breaks-silence-over-attacks

davidbfpo
01-19-2016, 08:22 PM
A statement by Gerry Adams about the Provisional IRA IRRC, but this time applies to Germany:
Three fugitive members of a notorious communist terror cell who have been on the run for 18 years have been traced to the scene of a botched armed robbery. Police believe three people who held up a security van last summer are former members of the far-left Red Army Faction (RAF), also known as the Baader-Meinhof gang...The terror group disbanded in 1998...
Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12108226/Baader-Meinhof-terrorists-on-run-for-18-years-leave-DNA-at-crime-scene.html

davidbfpo
06-27-2016, 02:04 PM
In the latest incident, the security van was held up in broad daylight by masked gunmen armed with an automatic rifle and an anti-tank rocket launcher.Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/trio-of-baader-meinhof-veterans-suspected-of-armed-robbery-in-ge/

OUTLAW 09
07-22-2016, 07:58 PM
Appears the single shooter today in Munich might have been a far right shooter based on a conversation he had with a local who videoed the exchange....

CONFIRMED
Shooter shouted: "Ihr Scheissturken!" - "You ####ing Turks!"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlnd3gqN61c

Shooter shouted: "I'm German. I was born here. I was in stationary treatment."

He spoke with a Munich dialect perfect German.....

If not the far right then mentally unstable.....
Impressive German Police use of Twitter in three languages........EU, FR, GM

AdamG
07-23-2016, 11:24 AM
Separate thread for maximum exposure.



MUNICH -- German police on Saturday appealed to members of the public to submit video and picture evidence after a lone gunman – with dual German-Iranian citizenship – killed nine people and injured 16 others after opening fire near a fast-food restaurant and at a shopping center before killing himself.
The attack was the third to target civilians in Europe in just over a week following a deadly assault in Nice that killed 84 people and a knife and ax rampage on a train in Bavaria that injured a group of Hong Kong tourists.

The man, 18, has not been named and his motive is not clear. He sparked a manhunt with 2,300 security forces across Germany's third largest city Friday after shooting at passersby outside a McDonald's restaurant and later at the Olympia mall. A "pistol" was used carry out the assault, police said.http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/german-police-calls-for-public-to-submit-footage-of-attack/ar-BBuI3xN?li=AA4Zpp&ocid=spartandhp

OUTLAW 09
10-25-2016, 11:31 AM
German authorities carry out 13 simultaneous counterterrorism raids across five statesGerman police have simultaneously raided a dozen apartments and a refugee center across five states, police in Thuringia have announced. Authorities say the raids are targeting asylum seekers suspected of joining IS.

Initially there are rumored to be 13 Russians that were also arrested in these raids...not confirmed as of yet...

OUTLAW 09
10-25-2016, 01:15 PM
Today's coordinated CT raids targeted 14 Russian nationals (incl 3 women) of Chechen background; explosives seized. 12 residences were targeted in 5 Federal States...well coordinated raids today...

OUTLAW 09
11-08-2016, 12:18 PM
Germany security services raided and captured five IS Islamists...including the top recruiter here in Germany rumored to be the IS number one in Germany...

Tip came from a German IS Syrian returnee who had broken from IS and who identified him....the security services had heard of him but had no photos to go on.....

OUTLAW 09
11-09-2016, 11:28 AM
The key lines from Merkel's message to Trump...watch now the moves made by France and Germany to led the EU WITHOUT US input as Trump has made his positions clear towards both Germany. EU and NATO....and where he wants to take the US which is retrenchment down the entire FP line......

AdamG
11-15-2016, 04:38 PM
On November 13 last year, three teams of militants from the so-called "Islamic State" (IS), armed with Kalashnikovs, stormed the Stade de France stadium, the Bataclan concert hall and several pubs in Paris. The rampage left 130 people dead, 85 of them in Bataclan, where the band, the Eagles of Death Metal, was playing.
Meanwhile, investigations have revealed that all nine men involved in the attacks had traveled to Europe together with the stream of refugees that entered the continent in 2015. According to German weekly "Welt am Sonntag," the country's spy agency, the "Bundesnachrichtendienst," (BND) has warned that IS is specifically training terrorists to merge with asylum seekers looking for safer havens in Europe. The report's authors say that the BND suggests that terrorists train potential attackers on how to answer questions during border interrogations so they can prove their credibility as refugees.

http://www.dw.com/en/islamic-state-reportedly-training-terrorists-to-enter-europe-as-asylum-seekers/a-36389389

CrowBat
11-17-2016, 08:21 AM
Unfortunately, the German government is not necessarily the best judge of what is a threat and what is not.Sorry, not sure about that.

No doubt, they might appear slow, too tolerant, not doing anything etc. But, AFAIK, they're kind of pedantic in their monitoring ops, and once they start acting, they're striking very precisely and massively (like few days ago, when they launched a simultaneous operation against some 200 points all over the country).


Today, Germans who oppose Merkel’s open border policy face official censorship and censure for discussing it on social media, in addition to being victims of migrant crime.
Re. 'censorship and censure' of those who oppose Merkel's policy: there is - and quite strict, really 'intensive' at that - censorship and censure of any kind of publications and/or behaviour related to specific topics already since decades. See topics like 'critique of Israel', which are an absolute 'no-no' in the German public (and eagerly misrepresented as 'denial of Holocaust', too).

Means: that (with censure of opinions opposing Merkel's policy) is neither something new, nor something happening 'today' only.

Re. 'victims of migrant crime': yes, there's a constant flow of rumours about all sorts of 'horrible', 'terrible' and whatever other kind of crimes supposedly committed by refugees/immigrants, ranging from murder and rape, to stealing livestock etc.

Curiously (and this is not to be understood as any kind of 'complaint': I'm just explaining conclusions based on my own findings), all are launched by people with obvious right-wing backgrounds, and nothing supported by any kind of empiric evidence.

Example: few months ago I had a vicious discussion with several other researchers and authors about this topic, several of whom insisted on pointing out such 'horrible', 'terrible' etc. crimes and whatever else. Not ONE of them could provide evidence for any of these. No photos; no eyewitness accounts. Just plain rumours.

On the contrary, such rumours are opposed by official statistics, which show that there is actually less crime than during the times from before September 2015 (and this in both, Germany and Austria).

I'm leaving it to everybody to make his/her own mind about this. But, from my POV, that alone is 'speaking volumes'.

***

Finally, let me 'admit' (if you like), or emphasise, that - while one can (with help of some careful sort) differentiate at least three different patterns within the right-wing movements here (Germany + Austria) - there is absolutely no doubt about the 'brown Gedankengut' (Neo-Nazi ideology/mindset) remaining present and influential within anything like 2-5% of the population (my own estimate, and including Germany and Austria).

I don't know what's your standpoint about this, but it simply makes me sad (often enough: 'mad', too).

But, that's also a reason more that - and beg your pardon - people like me are not the least curious to have that BS spread in the public. Indeed, I do not want to hear a single letter of that kind.

Plus: like few other of well-informed people here, I'm getting seriously fed up of all the sponsoring for groups with such Gedankengut by specific private persons from abroad - especially from the USA, recently from Russia too.

So, overall, I would say: there are damn good reasons why there is a sort of censorship and censure of specific kind of characters. Indeed, I'm all for it.

AdamG
12-04-2016, 04:13 PM
According to Der Spiegel, a German intelligence officer has been exposed as an Islamist terrorist infiltrator suspected of plotting to bomb the agency’s headquarters. A 51-year-old official has been arrested after being said to have made a “partial confession” to plotting the attack. An official told Der Spiegel that the suspect tried passing on “sensitive information” about the Germany’s domestic security agency, the BfV, which “could lead to a threat” at their spy office.
http://americanmilitarynews.com/2016/12/german-intel-officer-exposed-as-islamic-terrorist-infiltrator-plotting-attack-on-headquarters


Es sei dem Verfassungsschutz gelungen, "einen mutmaßlichen Islamisten unter seinen Mitarbeitern zu enttarnen", bestätigte das Bundesamt (BfV) am Dienstagabend gegenüber dem SPIEGEL. Der 51-Jährige Deutsche sitzt in U-Haft, die Staatsanwaltschaft Düsseldorf ermittelt. http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/geheimdienst-islamist-schleicht-sich-bei-verfassungsschutz-ein-a-1123676.html

OUTLAW 09
12-19-2016, 08:06 PM
Moderator's Note

Created to cover reporting and posts after last night's terrorism-inspired attack on a Xmas market in Berlin. So previous posts will be moved here soon and this post will drop from being first.(Ends)

Appears to have been a truck attack into a Xmas market here in Berlin this evening....am lucky.... we were there this afternoon to avoid the evening large crowds....no barriers as the market is bordered by two major roads..

Terror attack not being ruled out....several dead and a high number of injured being first reported...by the Berlin Fire Department

BREAKING: Driver of the truck is on the run according to German media sources

Lorry crash at Christmas market at Breitscheidplatz in Berlin is deliberate attack, German police say

OUTLAW 09
12-19-2016, 08:58 PM
Multiple reports are saying multiple figures..right now trending is 9 killed and 50 plus injured....

A mob of #Americans now tries to tell me, that because Germans aren't reacting like a hysteric mob, #Germany is in trouble... ... ...

Azor
12-19-2016, 09:46 PM
The truck had Polish plates and apparently the driver has gone missing...

The transport company is frantic that the driver was waylaid and killed.

http://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2016_51/1838391/161219-berlin-truck-christmas-market-309p_70c3c08545f1c4cf6d728f77e799c030.nbcnews-fp-1200-800.jpg

OUTLAW 09
12-20-2016, 10:43 AM
Multiple reports are saying multiple figures..right now trending is 9 killed and 50 plus injured....

A mob of #Americans now tries to tell me, that because Germans aren't reacting like a hysteric mob, #Germany is in trouble... ... ...

Those speculating should note that Germany already experienced three attacks this year. They only had a marginal impact on political polls


UPDATE.....12 killed...49 injured with a large number seriously...truck was carrying a massive steel shipment from Italy heading to Poland....

NEW jihadi attack TTP...they physically truck jacked the truck killing the driver ...his shipping company had lost contact to the driver at 1600 German time and his wife had also repeatedly attempted to reach him. Police are using the trucks GPS system to retrace the route taken from 1600...all EU long haul trucks are required to carry a GPS recording system when the engine is engaged....

One passerby on his bicycle noticed the driver running away from the scene which at that time first looked like a traffic accident as the jihadi did not drive at an angle into the market but along the edge and solid decorative steel pole barriers kept the truck along the sidewalk and it ended up at an angle but not going deeper into the market area.

The bicyclist started chasing the fleeing driver all the while talking with the Berlin SWAT (SEK) on his blue tooth in his ear....SEK then surrounded and arrested him roughly five miles from the scene near the Victory Column for those that know Berlin....

At the moment of impact there is a solid rumor still not confirmed by the Berlin Police that a group of men (number not identified) started shouting "God is Great".....market goers immediately notified the on site police team (20 of them that were providing market security)...and there were arrests...number not confirmed nor is the arrest confirmed.....

At 0400 this morning the Berlin SEK raided into a refugee center at the old Templehof airport...reason for the raid and that the raid even took place although people observed the raid is not being confirmed as well.....

While some might call this a lone wolf attack...the use of a pistol in a highly weapons controlled country indicates a logistic supply element as does the group of arrested men shouting "Good is Great"...coupled with the actual hijacking of the truck and then killing the driver.

Truck driver was known to the police as a small time criminal after a number of arrests....they cannot/will not confirm if he is Pakistani and or from AFG....he arrived in Berlin in FEB 2016 via the Balkan smuggle route and has used various different names when arrested in the past 10 months....

Case has been turned over to the German Federal Prosecutors Office and the arrested individual flown to a Federal Prison location not named yet for further questioning....

Berlin was lucky as the truck was travelling a heavily congested road in the evening and the speed limit there is 30mph/50kms and the truck was heavily loaded so the speed of the truck was limited...and it came to rest faster than an unloaded semi trailer...otherwise he would have landed deeper into the crowded marketplace ...most of the killed were rolled over and under the truck due to the heavy load....

davidbfpo
12-20-2016, 11:16 AM
Created to cover reporting and posts after last night's terrorism-inspired attack on a Xmas market in Berlin. So previous posts will be moved here soon and this post will drop from being first.

There are several relevant threads in the Forum's Europe area, notably the attacks in France and the main thread on Germany into which this is likely to be merged one day.

TheCurmudgeon
12-20-2016, 01:08 PM
While some might call this a lone wolf attack...the use of a pistol in a highly weapons controlled country indicates a logistic supply element as does the group of arrested men shouting "Good is Great"...coupled with the actual hijacking of the truck and then killing the driver.

Truck driver was known to the police as a small time criminal after a number of arrests......

What is the likelihood that the pistol belonged to the driver of the truck?

How hard is it to get a pistol in Poland?

OUTLAW 09
12-20-2016, 03:43 PM
What is the likelihood that the pistol belonged to the driver of the truck?

How hard is it to get a pistol in Poland?

The Polish driver was the cousin of the trucking owner and had driven for 15 years...he had replaced the owner who had his driving hours in and was to bring the steel load into Poland...and both the owner and wife had tried to reach him at 1600........

He was killed by a head shot and there was no blood evidence in the cabin of the truck.....so the assumption is he was truck jacked at a truck stop outside Berlin....there are virtually no locations inside Berlin where a lot of trucks can pull over and park....the route the attack driver used indicates he had come in a road off of the outer Berlin Ring highway thus the truck stop hijacking is a good assumption......

The arrested alleged driver a Pakistani adamantly claims he was not the attacker and initial forensics seems to indicate no gun powder trace on the arrested individual....

Pistols on the black market are hard to get unless one knows the right criminal circles.....since the Russian invasion of Ukraine weapons are running amok on the black market right now....

OUTLAW 09
12-20-2016, 04:24 PM
Reminder: in March 2016 Kremlin's Sergey Markov announced terrorists attacks in Berlin in case if Merkel doesn't cave in to Putn's demands

Actually an interesting comment from March 2016 as IS has not claimed this attack yet...and they should have been far faster if it was indeed IS.....

Berlin #TruckJihad was just the beginning. German police say to expect more Xmas attacks by #ISIS-inspired killers.
http://observer.com/2016/12/jihad-takes-ankara-zurich-berlin/#

davidbfpo
12-20-2016, 04:27 PM
From the BBC News summary for the attack, two of six points:


German police are questioning a suspect, believed to be a Pakistani migrant
The arrested man denies involvement and police say it is not clear he was the driver
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has said it is a terrorist attack
Mrs Merkel said Germans would find the strength to live 'free and open lives'

Link to the running update:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-38370364

Thanks to our local member, Outlaw 09, who has given the reported details and context.

davidbfpo
12-21-2016, 02:18 PM
From The Soufan Group's conclusion on Berlin:
Among the many counterterrorism challenges European authorities face (http://soufangroup.us4.list-manage.com/track/click?u=3fe77a4916f69c37ee2ac1cbe&id=99b48190c0&e=8aef956530), they will now face even greater pressure to secure venues that were not designed to be secure, against a weapon that was not designed to be a weapon.
Link:http://soufangroup.com/tsg-intelbrief-terror-by-truck-in-berlin/

This point has been made, when it is quieter by those who advise on preventing attacks, that the enemy can easily adapt and bypass such static defences - however sophisticated (see BBC story with much "spin"). When vehicles were stopped from parking directly outside airport terminals here it was pointed out transferring an IED to a luggage trolley(s) would be just as effective - sadly as proved by Brussels airport.

Yesterday's BBC story:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36806691

A better BBC report today, by a different author:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38377884

OUTLAW 09
12-21-2016, 02:34 PM
UPDATE:

The Polish driver of the long haul truck parked it at a construction site at 1500 because the steel parts were for this construction site on the day of the attack....and then went to eat...

At 1600 the truck's GPS which is integrated into the entire truck's electronics indicated that someone other than the driver attempted to start the 40ton truck...but was not successful......

Indicating a possible truck break in by the now wanted Tunisian....the truck remained stationary until 1900 when it began to move towards Berlin City West ie the Kudamm.....where the attack occurred at 20:08

Concerning the truck jacking.....while the German FBI is chasing a Tunisian they still are thinking quietly that more were involved......as it is impossible to control a strong 37 year old physical fit hostage with just a knife and or pistol and drive a 40 ton truck at the same time so someone else is being assumed to have been in the cab controlling the Polish driver.

The Polish driver was stabbed several times and it appears that he fought with the terrorist driver and was able to steer the truck largely away from the intended target area....as the German FBI indicated there were strong signs of a fight in the cab....then after the truck impacted and then stopped the terrorist driver appears to have shot the Polish driver in the head and fled...

German authorities are giving the Polish driver high marks for fighting and diverting the truck in the final moments of the attack.....

Reference the wanted Tunisian ---he has given upon registering as a refugee three different names ...is known to the police due to petty crime activities and has been caught carrying a number of different passports...the German FBI is not sure of his actual age other than what he has given ie 21 during registration as a refugee and sometimes 23 when arrested for a petty crime....

NOTE: and this is important....THIS is not your typical IS jihadi attack....

The German FBI has an online site to upload videos...photos...and any witness statements which has led to over 700 witness statements and a lot of videos.....

Today it has been under a massive and strong DDoS attack attempting to knock it off the net and to hinder any further witness information from getting to the German FBI...

THIS has never been done anywhere in Europe in past IS attacks....

We have been tracking two attacks avenues one coming out of the ME area and another coming out of the Russian area....yes IS can use any number of worldwide servers for a DDoS attack, but Russian criminal groups often use Russian servers for these type of attacks themselves and or "rent out those severs to whoever pays well"......

OUTLAW 09
12-21-2016, 02:52 PM
BREAKING: German state minister says security agencies have identified Berlin attack suspect as being in contact with Islamist network

German FBI is indicating that the driver was under suspicion of planning and attack but the investigation was stopped as they had no concrete evidence in order to charge him....

He had been the target of tight surveillance as a suspected terrorist but was lost as he was constantly changing his town of residence ....and moving daily

OUTLAW 09
12-21-2016, 03:41 PM
Reminder: in March 2016 Kremlin's Sergey Markov announced terrorists attacks in Berlin in case if Merkel doesn't cave in to Putn's demands

[B]Actually an interesting comment from March 2016 as IS has not claimed this attack yet...and they should have been far faster if it was indeed IS.....


Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda
I wrote this five days ago for @observer.
After the horrible Berlin attack, Kremlin disinformation ops started to run full-scale assault.

OUTLAW 09
12-21-2016, 03:45 PM
Cited in part:
UPDATE: The Polish driver of the long haul truck parked it at a construction site at 1500 because the steel parts were for this construction site on the day of the attack....and then went to eat...

Something is not normal about this attack...the Tunisian who is being manhurted for had contacts to various radical jihadist individuals and groups in Germany BUT not to definitively not IS....

IS did not name him in their claiming statement which is not normal for them...almost as they really did not know who the attacker was AND now the hacking attack not your standard IS TPP.........

If we take the Russian voiced threat seriously from Mar 2016 could this actually have been a false flag attack using a radicalized Muslim refugee?

OUTLAW 09
12-21-2016, 03:51 PM
German police search migrant shelter near Netherlands border: media
http://www.geo.tv/latest/124504-German-police-search-migrant-shelter-near-Netherlands-border-media#

OUTLAW 09
12-21-2016, 05:22 PM
German government is serious about arresting him....they just released a 100,000 Euro reward for any tip leading to his arrest and or those that supported him........

BMJV ‏@BMJV_Bund 26m
26 minutes ago

Fahndung Anis AMRI im Zusammenh. #breitscheidplatz:
Erklärung #GBA: http://www.generalbundesanwalt.de/de/showpress.php?newsid=654#…
Fahndungsplakat @bka:
https://www.bka.de/DE/IhreSicherheit/Fahndungen/Personen/BekanntePersonen/Amri/Sachverhalt_Amri.html?nn=61060#…


This amount of money will definitely loosen tongues in the refugee and general population....wanted photos being spread all across Germany and in every major Germany city...countries bordering Germany have instituted border checks of all vehicles...trains and or buses....

OUTLAW 09
12-21-2016, 05:24 PM
Paris operatives did same. 2 interned in Cyprus because the 'Iraqi' couldn't speak Arabic and the 'Syrian' couldn't find Aleppo on a map.

OUTLAW 09
12-21-2016, 05:39 PM
BBC News - Berlin truck attack suspect: What do we know?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38396987#

Berlin terror suspect said to have moved within Abu Walaa's circle. Who's he?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37906960#

OUTLAW 09
12-21-2016, 05:58 PM
Fake news outlet @SputnikInt yet again turns to far-right racist party to attack western policy.

OUTLAW 09
12-21-2016, 07:23 PM
Cited in part:

Something is not normal about this attack...the Tunisian who is being manhurted for had contacts to various radical jihadist individuals and groups in Germany BUT not to definitively not IS....

IS did not name him in their claiming statement which is not normal for them...almost as they really did not know who the attacker was AND now the hacking attack not your standard IS TPP.........

If we take the Russian voiced threat seriously from Mar 2016 could this actually have been a false flag attack using a radicalized Muslim refugee?

Why do non-suicide ISIS terrorists tend to leave their passports on the crime scene? This makes no sense. First in Paris, now in Berlin.

davidbfpo
12-21-2016, 08:40 PM
Why do non-suicide ISIS terrorists tend to leave their passports on the crime scene? This makes no sense. First in Paris, now in Berlin.

Outlaw 09,

The wish for martyrdom I think. Plus if they escape from the scene the publicity for a known suspect amplifies the message.

IIRC in the 7/7 suicide bombings in London (in 2005) at least one suspect was carrying personal ID, which accelerated the investigation and quickly id'd the "bomb factory" @ Leeds.

Azor
12-21-2016, 09:47 PM
Cited in part:

Something is not normal about this attack...the Tunisian who is being manhurted for had contacts to various radical jihadist individuals and groups in Germany BUT not to definitively not IS....

IS did not name him in their claiming statement which is not normal for them...almost as they really did not know who the attacker was AND now the hacking attack not your standard IS TPP.........

If we take the Russian voiced threat seriously from Mar 2016 could this actually have been a false flag attack using a radicalized Muslim refugee?

Are you saying that Russia would stage a terrorist attack in Berlin in order to ensure Merkel's electoral defeat?

Are you serious?

To what end? Sanctions relief? Is there no other way for Putin to weaken European resolve over Ukraine other than potentially triggering an Article V response if discovered? Certainly, Merkel couldn't keep quiet if this was state terror...

Azor
12-21-2016, 09:55 PM
Outlaw 09,

The wish for martyrdom I think. Plus if they escape from the scene the publicity for a known suspect amplifies the message.

IIRC in the 7/7 suicide bombings in London (in 2005) at least one suspect was carrying personal ID, which accelerated the investigation and quickly id'd the "bomb factory" @ Leeds.

Thanks David.

I'm afraid that there is some denial about Muslim supremacist terrorism here. I add the "supremacist" label, because that is what it is. We don't call white supremacist terrorism "white terrorism" now do we?

Accusing Russia of a false flag attack does nothing to change the fact that there is a supremacist strain within Islam (up to 4%), that is growing, speaking for all Muslims, suppressing dissent within Islam and from which jihadis come.

The Western approach to Muslim supremacism is akin to letting Christian Identity off the hook out of "religious tolerance".

OUTLAW 09
12-22-2016, 06:00 AM
Thanks David.

I'm afraid that there is some denial about Muslim supremacist terrorism here. I add the "supremacist" label, because that is what it is. We don't call white supremacist terrorism "white terrorism" now do we?

Accusing Russia of a false flag attack does nothing to change the fact that there is a supremacist strain within Islam (up to 4%), that is growing, speaking for all Muslims, suppressing dissent within Islam and from which jihadis come.

The Western approach to Muslim supremacism is akin to letting Christian Identity off the hook out of "religious tolerance".

Azor.....I am sick and tired of comments such as these coming from what people call an educated man (Mr Trump)......who thinks he is smart and does not need intel briefings because he is smart....

TRUMP......
Trump Suggests Berlin Attack Affirms His Plan to Bar Muslims

WHAT Trump did not apparently know is how tight the German government had him under surveillance and was attempting to deport him...BUT naturally Trump being smarter than Germans knew this already...

Statistically seen every known ethnic community has at least 1% of the group that is violent in some form and YES that includes Americans.

The German BKA and MAD had this guy under tight surveillance for exactly 180 days...which is the longest possible under German law...leftover from Hitler days to protect the common man.....during that period they had info he was going to rob something in order to get money for weapons.......nothing happened in those 180 days and they were forced to stop surveillance.

The Germans are having a problem confirming the past history of those that came into Germany.....remember this is 2016 not 1980 when the Allies controlled Berlin and every single person arriving in Berlin went through a serious security check even escaping GDR Border Guards....

This attacker was from a deep Salafist area inside Tunisian.....and only after this attack did the Tunisians do an interrogation of his family.

Germany was ready to deport him and had him under surveillance BUT Tunisia refused to accept him back into the country....THEREIN lies the core problem.....the native countries for jihadists/common criminals do not want them back....

The second problem is that no government not even the US government can tell you exactly what someone thinks in their own mind if they say nothing...we are not at the mind control stage....YET.....

I am still standing by my comment...this is/was not your common typical IS attack.....truck jacking used...kidnapping used....knife and gun used....someone had to have helped with the jacking....and he fled instead of "dying in the name of god"............

AND this is critical...WHILE IS claimed it they did not name the attacker...they used the term "fighter"....which loosely means he identified with us but was not one of us....in jihadi speak....

There have been multiple raids late last night against known Salafists....do not think for a moment German security agencies do not know their opponents....

OUTLAW 09
12-22-2016, 11:09 AM
THIS is just how pathetic the new incoming US president thinks and acts...BUT WAIT did he not state for the record he is smarter than yes even his intel briefers.....

He is dangerous and will cause the clash of civilizations if he is not careful with his statements and actions towards Muslims in general.....


President-elect Donald Trump emerged from his Mar-a-Lago estate in Palm Beach, Fla., on Wednesday afternoon to briefly address questions from reporters about this week’s deadly attacks in Europe. And Trump appeared to stand by his plan for both a temporary ban on Muslims entering the United States and the creation of a registry of Muslims who live here.

Trump was asked whether Monday’s violence in Germany#and Turkey had caused him to “rethink or reevaluate” his plan to create a Muslim registry or a ban on Muslim immigration.

“You know my plans,” Trump replied. “All along, I’ve been proven to be right — 100 percent correct. What’s happening is disgraceful.”

Following the 2015 terror attacks in Paris, Trump called for a temporary ban on all Muslims entering the United States, a database tracking American Muslims, and expanded surveillance of “certain” mosques. But following sharp criticism from both Democrats and Republicans, he#appeared to soften his stance, saying the proposals were “just a suggestion until we find out what’s going on.”

In June, after the deadly mass shooting at Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Fla., Trump said the profiling of U.S. Muslims might be part of his counterterrorism plan.

Members of his transition team have since stated that they intend to suspend immigration from “regions where it cannot be safely processed or vetted” and impose “extreme vetting” on immigrants who are allowed to enter the United States.

Some Trump aides and advisers have suggested that the proposed database of the U.S. Muslim population will not in fact be created, but the proposal for the ban remains on the Trump campaign website and it’s unclear which statements reflect the incoming administration’s current thinking.

Following Monday’s truck attack on a Christmas market in Berlin, Trump issued a statement suggesting ISIS had carried out the attack as part of its continued “slaughter” of Christians in “their global jihad.”

But on Wednesday, Trump appeared to be unaware of his own on-paper assertion that Christians were the target.

“Who said that?” Trump said.

“I believe you said it in a press release,” one of the pool reporters replied. “I’m wondering how this might affect relations with Muslims.”

“It’s an attack on humanity,” Trump replied. “That’s what it is. An attack on humanity, and it’s got to be stopped.”


SO WHEN Trump starts a war with Muslims...will he remember exactly what he previously said..as it appears that he cannot remember anything from day to day.

WE the US had a WW2 registry when we placed all US Japanese citizens into internment camps.....a stain that have never been erased .....AND we the US tried it again after 9/11 but it failed as well......AND Trump and his advisors ALL know this......

IS the new Muslim registry similar to the Jews being forced in Germany to wear the yellow Star of David on their clothes.....????

THIS is what Trump does not fully understand about Berlin.......

On Tuesday a Syrian refugee father and his 14 year old son were attacked and being beaten by a group of four neo Nazi's as they were approaching their refugee center.....

A group of teenagers 7...boys and girls from the local low income blue collar neighborhood then jumped into the fray and started beating on the neo Nazi's after calling the police for help......

SEVEN teenagers NON Muslim in a blue collar neighborhood stood up and defend Syrian refugees .........AND they were as Trump stated Christians......

NOW what would Trump say to that.....?????

OUTLAW 09
12-22-2016, 11:17 AM
UPDATE.....there have been NYTs reports that the wanted attacker had been on a no fly US list and had been on the internet searching for bomb making information....NONE of this passed to German security services....WHY NOT...???

THERE has been comments ALSO coming out of the US that German should have been surveilling him totally...and why did they lose him.......

Currently German security services carry a total of 550 on a list of potentially dangerous Islamists.....

In order to conduct round the clock total surveillance on these 550 individuals it would require a total of 15,000 well trained surveillance personnel....and that does not count their work against organized crime...ongoing at the same time as well as the standard espionage cases that require surveillance teams.

BTW....the German government had wanted to deport the attacker in July 2016 but could not as the Tunisian government would not issue a valid Tunisian passport in order to be deport under German law...

SUDDENLY after the attack and his being identified as Tunisian....SUDDENLY the passport arrived yesterday.....

OUTLAW 09
12-22-2016, 11:44 AM
THIS is just how pathetic the new incoming US president thinks and acts...BUT WAIT did he not state for the record he is smarter than yes even his intel briefers.....

He is dangerous and will cause the clash of civilizations if he is not careful with his statements and actions towards Muslims in general.....



SO WHEN Trump starts a war with Muslims...will he remember exactly what he previously said..as it appears that he cannot remember anything from day to day.

WE the US had a WW2 registry when we placed all US Japanese citizens into internment camps.....a stain that have never been erased .....AND we the US tried it again after 9/11 but it failed as well......AND Trump and his advisors ALL know this......

IS the new Muslim registry similar to the Jews being forced in Germany to wear the yellow Star of David on their clothes.....????

THIS is what Trump does not fully understand about Berlin.......

On Tuesday a Syrian refugee father and his 14 year old son were attacked and being beaten by a group of four neo Nazi's as they were approaching their refugee center.....

A group of teenagers 7...boys and girls from the local low income blue collar neighborhood then jumped into the fray and started beating on the neo Nazi's after calling the police for help......

SEVEN teenagers NON Muslim in a blue collar neighborhood stood up and defended Syrian refugees .........AND they were as Trump stated Christians......

NOW what would Trump say to that.....?????

If Trump spoke German....maybe he would not have said what he did about the Berlin attack......he certainly does not understand that a vast majority of Germans do in fact support the refugees being in Germany...what some did/do not like is the hectic way it was done.....and the neo right plays the race card as did Trump and his surrogates and he still does....with a statement like this above....

THIS was given top location in a major Berlin newspaper this morning and it actually sums up the typical Berlin mentality to the attack that Trump will never get.....Berlin is a tough gritty blue collar acting major European city with a certain upscale flair not seen in other European capitals...and with it's own mind set.


Passt mal auf, ihr Radikal-Spinner: Das heir is Berlin. WIR sind Berlin....Manche von uns sind Turken....Oder Russen. Oder Amerikaner. Pakistani, ja!!! Oder sogar Baden-Wuettemberger.

Angst vor Euch?!. Dream on, Puss....s!. Ihr koennt uns mal!


Another example...last night the neo right group AfD tried to play the race card at a demonstration ...only 200 of their supporters showed up and a spontaneous counter demo drew over 2000....who booed them into the ground.

A well known German journalist who has worked the US and France said this in an interview yesterday...

When something like this happens in the US there are large crowd gatherings....when it happened in France they sang the Marseillaise extra loud and the streets of Paris were empty and there were snipers on the roof tops....

WHEN it happens in Berlin....Berliners act as they always do in a serious moment...they simply are totally not impressed and go about their daily lives and routine....nothing seems to bring them into a panic...maybe it has to do with their history of being a divided city for over 45 years...and two wars and being bombed into the ground and having to deal with millions of war refugees.....

BTW....there have been absolutely no wave of hotel and travel cancellations to Berlin...if anything they have increased over the last two days....when a German couple not from Berlin were asked why they felt secure after the attack..."your police and fire department acted in such a professional way and even with machine pistols and body armor they are so friendly and smiling"....

OUTLAW 09
12-22-2016, 12:03 PM
A leading French political scientist Olivier Roy from Paris well known for his studies and research into the radicalization of refugees and radicalization in general for over 20 years ....openly challenged Trump and many US commenters in their statements on refugees and Muslims in general........

There has been not a single recorded attack in Europe that was committed by a true registered refugee and or a member of that family...none whatsoever.....

Did and does IS and even AQ use the human smuggling route to slide their fighters back into Europe yes they did and still do....but these individuals are not the same as a true refugee...

Most of the attacks in at least Germany do/did not require an extensive logistics support group....and were often spontaneous in nature and not well planned out by those individuals radicalized before coming to say Germany...

Or they came out of immigrant families who basically had become German citizens and or were living/working for long periods inside Germany...the same exact thing occurred in France....

NONE of the current IS attacks were carried out by true registered refugees....

THAT is something Trump seriously needs to think about and fully understand in his demands for register all Muslims and ban all Muslims from entering the US.....

ALL he is doing is in fact playing the dog whistles of blatant racism.....AND providing IS and AQ excellent propaganda that proves them correct in their assessments of the West....

Azor
12-22-2016, 06:59 PM
There have been multiple raids late last night against known Salafists....do not think for a moment German security agencies do not know their opponents....

What does this have to do with your insinuation that the Berlin attack was a false flag by a Russian agent attempting to influence European immigration policy?

OUTLAW 09
12-22-2016, 07:15 PM
What does this have to do with your insinuation that the Berlin attack was a false flag by a Russian agent attempting to influence European immigration policy?

Azor...this whole attack does not make sense nor matches the standard IS TPPs...

While he ran along the edges of the Salafist circles he did not mix that deeply with them....which has made him harder to track right now.....his family stated out of Tunisia he never even prayed as a Muslim....

BUT again Berlin and several German cities where he was residing as he moved constantly has a large number of Russian SVR/FSB agents..do not challenge me on that fact....AND we have seen a reactivation of a number of former GDR MfS agents.......taken back into the FSB/SVR fold....

Go back to my post on the Russian threat issued out of Moscow in March 2016....that threat came from a well respected inner circle advisor of Putin....

Secondly.....Merkel is holding the Russian sanctions literally in place and the Russians know this..remember the US sanctions on Russia have virtually no impact as the US had limited trade with Russia...but not the EU....AND the dropping of those sanctions runs through Merkel.....NOT Trump....

OUTLAW 09
12-22-2016, 07:32 PM
Julian Reichelt

@jreichelt
Warum Terroristen den Geist von Berlin nicht brechen werden. Mein @BILD Kommentar. #BerlinAttack

OUTLAW 09
12-22-2016, 07:40 PM
Just got off the phone with the US and listening to the stories circulating around all the Merkel refugee mistakes and how the German security services failed....comments coming from Trump voters....BTW....

ALL comments are flying around in the States with absolutely no understanding of what actually is ongoing in Berlin...........

While we have the FBI....the Germans have their own Federal FBI...and Berlin Regional FBI....have their own version of MI5 WHICH we the US do not have and that in every German regional State....then they have a Special Police unit called Staatsschutz in every Regional State........

ALL tied to their German CIA which has an internal NSA.....AND tied as well to the German military CI.....

They probably have their Salafist scene in Germany under far better surveillance than the US does....especially our own home grown terrorists...and they are using largely Muslim officers for this......

Part of the problem or what is being called security failures in the States is really the Germans holding tightly to the rule of law built after Hitler...they would rather err on the side of the rule of law instead of running it into the ground as we have often done in the US especially with Gitmo....

Azor
12-22-2016, 08:57 PM
Azor...this whole attack does not make sense nor matches the standard IS TPPs...

While he ran along the edges of the Salafist circles he did not mix that deeply with them....which has made him harder to track right now.....his family stated out of Tunisia he never even prayed as a Muslim....

BUT again Berlin and several German cities where he was residing as he moved constantly has a large number of Russian SVR/FSB agents..do not challenge me on that fact....AND we have seen a reactivation of a number of former GDR MfS agents.......taken back into the FSB/SVR fold....

Go back to my post on the Russian threat issued out of Moscow in March 2016....that threat came from a well respected inner circle advisor of Putin....

Secondly.....Merkel is holding the Russian sanctions literally in place and the Russians know this..remember the US sanctions on Russia have virtually no impact as the US had limited trade with Russia...but not the EU....AND the dropping of those sanctions runs through Merkel.....NOT Trump....

Did they have a sale on tinfoil at Aldi?

You are making so many logical fallacies, I don't know where to begin.

You are starting from a desire to make the perpetrator not:


A practicing Muslim
A migrant posing as a refugee
A migrant posing as a minor
Motivated by anti-Western or anti-European sentiment


Then you are leaping to conclusions based upon, "if this man isn't a Muslim supremacist terrorist who could he be?".


Are their Russian intelligence officers all over Germany? Yes.
Are they trying to reactivate Cold War networks? Yes.
Does Russia want the EU sanctions lifted? Yes.
Is Germany key to keeping the sanctions in place? Yes.


But answer these questions:


Is Germany the only country that matters as far as sanctions go? No.
Does Russia have support in Germany and other EU members for sanctions relief? Yes.
Is sanctions relief worth staging an Article V-triggering terrorist attack? No.
Do Merkel's opponents need help from Putin to oust her? Not really.
Is German law enforcement stretched by the migrant crisis? Yes.
Are there much easier ways for Russia to get what it wants? Yes.

davidbfpo
12-22-2016, 09:38 PM
Not with lots of time to read today, but these items may help readers understand the puzzle pieces in Berlin and Germany.

First off, from Bellingcat:
We have found a video posted by Anis Amri, the man named by German prosecutors as a suspect in the Berlin Christmas market attack. The video was shared on September 26, 2016 in Berlin. We have geolocated it to this location
Link:https://www.facebook.com/bellingcat/videos/619755948212860/

A Canadian academic writes on the Germany internal security set-up, in places reminds us "all is not well":http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/after-berlin-atttack-the-cracks-in-germanys-security-are-showing/article33387839/

Shashank Joshi (RUSI) has a column on this too:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/22/berlin-terror-attack-shows-germanys-strained-intelligence-services/

By the far most useful, non-German explanation for the suspect is this rolling update:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/20/berlin-market-attack-suspect-named-23-year-old-asylum-seeker/

It has this item which makes me wonder at his IS credentials:
February 2011 Flees to Italy after being charged with armed robbery in home country of Tunisia. Claims asylum as a minor.
Sent to prison for four years after committing a series of crimes, including reportedly burning down a school.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0OUApiUAAAawy5.jpg

Circulated via Twitter.

OUTLAW 09
12-22-2016, 09:41 PM
Did they have a sale on tinfoil at Aldi?

You are making so many logical fallacies, I don't know where to begin.

You are starting from a desire to make the perpetrator not:


A practicing Muslim
A migrant posing as a refugee
A migrant posing as a minor
Motivated by anti-Western or anti-European sentiment


Then you are leaping to conclusions based upon, "if this man isn't a Muslim supremacist terrorist who could he be?".


Are their Russian intelligence officers all over Germany? Yes.
Are they trying to reactivate Cold War networks? Yes.
Does Russia want the EU sanctions lifted? Yes.
Is Germany key to keeping the sanctions in place? Yes.


But answer these questions:


Is Germany the only country that matters as far as sanctions go? No.
Does Russia have support in Germany and other EU members for sanctions relief? Yes.
Is sanctions relief worth staging an Article V-triggering terrorist attack? No.
Do Merkel's opponents need help from Putin to oust her? Not really.
Is German law enforcement stretched by the migrant crisis? Yes.
Are there much easier ways for Russia to get what it wants? Yes.

Ah...a tad aggressive are we......

1....he is known to have not prayed in any of the "more conservative mosques" in any city he stayed in...does that mean he is did not pray and or prayed in private apartments as did the Hamburg 11???

2. he entered Italy in 2011...did 4 yrs in jail and then hit Germany in June 2015.....A FULL year before the immigrant wave actually

3. he applied for asylum and was denied within one year...speedy for this decision actually as he could not prove any reason for being politically/physically at risk even from the Tunisians other than his sentence for 5 yrs in absentia.....

4. he never poised as a minor....always gave age as being between 21-24...but gave different names as he was arrested for minor crimes....

5. motivated by anti European thoughts....no comments about this has drifted up yet.....assume so if in fact a true member of IS but here is the problem...no one has connected him to an active cell and or an active conservative mosque anywhere in Germany as of yet



Are their Russian intelligence officers all over Germany? Yes.
Are they trying to reactivate Cold War networks? Yes.
Does Russia want the EU sanctions lifted? Yes.
Is Germany key to keeping the sanctions in place? Yes.
Glad you fully agree with me on these points.....

BUT...how would you know that the FSB/SVR has in fact reactivated their key Stasi former agents? That is not a truly proven and known fact outside a certain group....actually some of these former agents are active in the German neo right AfD....


But answer these questions:
Is Germany the only country that matters as far as sanctions go? No.
Does Russia have support in Germany and other EU members for sanctions relief? Yes.
Is sanctions relief worth staging an Article V-triggering terrorist attack? No.
Do Merkel's opponents need help from Putin to oust her? Not really.
Is German law enforcement stretched by the migrant crisis? Yes.
Are there much easier ways for Russia to get what it wants? Yes.
1. Germany is the paymaster for EU and follows what the pay master leads on....and right now the pay master wins every single sanctions debate within EU

2. Yes Russia has EU support including the German SPD but Merkel has been largely able to isolate the SPD in those demands but using Russia's own actions in eastern Ukraine and Syria

3. YOU have failed to notice that NATO has already triggered Article 5 ONCE...only once before ....to support the US right after 9/11..check your records....so why would not Article 5 be again triggered for a major attack on another NATO member...precedent has be already set...

4. Merkel's opponents in this case AfD..Pegida....need every assistance they can get as their potential percentage of votes will never cross more than 14% as their numbers are actually falling since Brexit and Trump....all other parties....CSU..SPD..Greens...will and or could form a coalition and she will remain ...

IF they did not assistance then why has Russian unleashed a cyber and info war against Merkel...

What is interesting is that in the face of all previous attacks and this one she has not taken a major hit on her popularity thus still presents a serious threat to Putin and keeping the sanctions in place....

5....stretched to the limit...not sure exactly what you mean by this....effectively by the end of Sept ALL 1.2M refugees have been biometrically handled and recorded ........security around the refugee centers is done largely by private security companies....

Stretched to the limit is the sheer volume of Federal Police overtime now at 6.7M hours.....which if the overtime was to be worked down and eliminated would require 13,000 new police.....but over the years of reductions started by Schoerder and the SPD as a way to lower the government costs...that is hurting them...not the refugees....

Example...3000 are to be hired in 2017 but 2000 are retiring....

Stretched on the security services side...yes as well but planned is a massive hiring in 2017 .........

BTW..being stretched is not only due to refugees...but a sheer unlimited it seems constant demonstrations in Berlin..over 1400 in 2016 that suck up manpower....and the increased patrolling in the rural areas to increase presence due to criminal activities in the rural areas of Germany...

Alone for the last Obama visit 3000 were pulled into Berlin and even German military police were used as well....

Stretched thin on their surveillance teams..they sure are but not even the US could constantly monitor with surveillance teams 550 individuals all at the same time...

If it was easier for Russia to get what it wants then why the massive spending on info warfare and the large number of cyber attacks in the last.
year????

AGAIN back to the core issue...this attack is not your norm IS attack for a surprisingly large number of reasons...and that alone is strange...

WHAT bothers me is actually the US role in this attack..if the attacker has been as NYTs reports on the US NF list for months..apparently this was not passed to the Germans.

There was a US travel alert for US tourists/military who would be visiting Christmas markets about a possible threat..but that was the standard normal yearly warning as part of their anti terror prevention alerts....some UK reporters are alluding to the fact in Sky that this warning came from the NSA because the Germans do not have a NSA equal...which reflects no knowledge of the German Federal Security Service BND and their abilities...

SO why was the attacker on the NF list and why did the US evidently not pass their info onto the Germans....

German surveillance did in fact pickup his plans to either commit a robbery and or sell drugs in order to get money for a weapon and or weapons....that led then to the twice 90 day surveillance which resulted on no evidence that could convict him of anything....

There are media rumors that he had offered himself as a suicider..not confirmed and if so...then what cell did he tag into to make this offer and if offered then why a truck jacking when he was prepared to commit suicide????

German law strictly controls surveillance both physical and electronic and it cannot exceed 180 days and if nothing happens during that period..security service are sh...t out of luck.....unless than can provide additional actual evidence that will lead then to an additional 90 days...

OUTLAW 09
12-22-2016, 10:16 PM
Hunting the Berlin Christmas Market Attack Suspect on Social Media via @bellingcathttps://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/12/22/hunting-berlin-christmas-market-suspect-social-media/#

Now we have dashcam video of the horrific Berlin Xmas market #TruckJihad attack which killed 12 + wounded 48.Try this link, very short video:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38411665

This link did not work: http://www.bild.de/news/inland/terrorberlin/der-moment-des-anschlags-49455400.bild.html#
(http://www.bild.de/news/inland/terrorberlin/der-moment-des-anschlags-49455400.bild.html#)

Azor
12-23-2016, 06:57 AM
Ah...a tad aggressive are we...

Well, your insinuation is in the realm of conspiracy theory I'm afraid. It isn't even in the same dimension as Ockham's Razor.

Amri may well be self-radicalized, which would not be unusual. Daesh takes credit for various lone wolf attacks throughout the West.


BUT...how would you know that the FSB/SVR has in fact reactivated their key Stasi former agents? That is not a truly proven and known fact outside a certain group...actually some of these former agents are active in the German neo right AfD...

It is a reasonable assumption based upon Russia’s increasing intelligence operations in the West during Putin’s tenure. Having said that, there is a major difference between a German person acting on behalf of the GDR and/or Communism, and one acting for Russia.

Over 15% of the population of the GDR informed to the StaSi at one time or another, so that would not surprise me. Yet both the GDR and FRG allowed many former National Socialists to occupy key military, political and intelligence positions. The Poles were much more thorough with their lustrationpolicy.

I would imagine that the SVR/GRU would have more luck recruiting Germans in the wake of the Iraq War, when anti-American sentiment was sweeping through Western Europe. Disapproval of one’s own side’s conduct provides fertile ground for being turned, as the Vietnam War and the crushing of the Prague Spring demonstrated.


1. Germany is the paymaster for EU and follows what the pay master leads on...and right now the pay master wins every single sanctions debate within EU

Yet there is dissent. Do you have any data on how the EU Council has voted with respect to the sanctions, and whether that vote has changed over time? At least 1/3 of the votes would be decidedly against sanctions, given the statements made by those EU members’ leaders.



2. Yes Russia has EU support including the German SPD but Merkel has been largely able to isolate the SPD in those demands but using Russia's own actions in eastern Ukraine and Syria.

Merkel and the CDU/CSU will likely be ousted by a combination of the SPD, Greens and The Left. The CSU would be open to any re-alignment that promises tough immigration and border control policies.


3. YOU have failed to notice that NATO has already triggered Article 5 ONCE...only once before ...to support the US right after 9/11...check your records...so why would not Article 5 be again triggered for a major attack on another NATO member...precedent has be already set...

Which is exactly my point. A Russian act of terror in Berlin would would be grounds for Article V. So why would Russia conduct such a risky operation?


IF they did not assistance then why has Russian unleashed a cyber and info war against Merkel...What is interesting is that in the face of all previous attacks and this one she has not taken a major hit on her popularity thus still presents a serious threat to Putin and keeping the sanctions in place...

Yet Merkel also relies upon censorship and cooperation with social media to suppress discussion and reporting on the migrant crisis. Germany’s definition of what constitutes expressions of hate has expanded over the decades well beyond that associated with National Socialism, allowing swathes of free expression to be criminalized. There are good reasons why the First Amendment is enshrined in the US Constitution, even though this freedom is abused by all types of supremacist and separatist groups.


5...stretched to the limit...not sure exactly what you mean by this...effectively by the end of Sept ALL 1.2M refugees have been biometrically handled and recorded ...security around the refugee centers is done largely by private security companies...

I mean that law enforcement is unable to protect migrants in their facilities from violence by other migrants, nor Germans from migrant violence, of which Koeln and Freiburg are examples.

Given the censorship noted above, I can only assume that statistics on ethnicity and crime in Germany are manipulated.

I know that you will have quite the response to my statements here, but I have been following this issue in Europe for many years before the recent wave of migrants, including the official disinformation on the subject. Angie may be concerned about rumor and gossip, but free press and social media would be preferable to Germans relying upon foreign sources, including British and Swedish tabloids.


If it was easier for Russia to get what it wants then why the massive spending on info warfare and the large number of cyber attacks in the last.
year?

Putin can hold a grudge for many years and revenge informs much of his aggression. But what keeps him up at night? The United States? Nope. Germany and China. Putin knows that birthrates and economic activity are more pertinent to Russian national security than tanks and submarines. As far as the AFD and NPD are concerned, they are mere sideshows, Russia’s real target is sympathetic elements of the CDU/CSU and SPD.


AGAIN back to the core issue...this attack is not your norm IS attack for a surprisingly large number of reasons...and that alone is strange...WHAT bothers me is actually the US role in this attack..if the attacker has been as NYTs reports on the US NF list for months..apparently this was not passed to the Germans...

It is not unusual as far as a Muslim supremacist terrorist act is concerned, irrespective of whether he had contact with Daesh or other groups.

Information falls through the cracks. Allegedly the Russians warned DHS or the FBI about the Tsarnaevs…

Perhaps the US shared the information and it was lost by the Europeans or Germans. If the Americans didn’t, there may be valid reasons. At present there is no “US role”.


German surveillance did in fact pickup his plans to either commit a robbery and or sell drugs in order to get money for a weapon and or weapons...that led then to the twice 90 day surveillance which resulted on no evidence that could convict him of anything...

So the BND had no mandate to surveil a non-citizen beyond 90 days? At this point, it appears as though the Germans dropped the ball on this one, despite their proficiency compared to the French. GSG-9 can tear-ass around Germany all they want. It won’t bring back any of the dead. And why were there no vehicle barriers?

OUTLAW 09
12-23-2016, 07:20 AM
Azor...you reflect much of what many do not fully understand about German law which is built on the principle of personal privacy/personal rights..actually head and shoulders above what Americans claim is a civil right and only American can/is providing those rights...due to that famous individual Hitler.... his SD and Gestapo........

Even in serious espionage cases they are held to a strict standard of 180 days...and yes that even includes non Germans as the case they are driving must survive a court trial for any civilian..........that is why they refrain from surveillance until they have a firm idea of what they will see and or find...

In the case of this attacker....they backed off from arresting him which they could have in theory done as a preventive measure but then his rights would have been violated because the Federal prosecutor would have had no case to present to the court.....in the US they would have simply arrested him....held him and then try to find evidence to charge him....here no one can be in fact charged unless there is solid evidence linking him or her to a specific criminal charge...again thank Hitler...when he is picked up the clock starts ticking for the prosecutor....

Again this whole attack does not make sense.....he is filmed on a surveillance camera of being in front of a known Salafist mosques several hours after the attack but approaching no one...he is then filmed again EIGTH full hours after the attack ACTUALLY at the attack site.....thus indicating he has not fled Berlin and that is a fatal mistake on his part....as the 100K reward is bringing info hourly....THAT has never been done in any previous IS attack....return to the scene....and he has released nor statement or video...all Paris attacks had prerecorded attacker statements released after the attacks...

Again his family is appealing to him stating you have brought shame on the entire family and Tunisia and indicating that if he committed the attack he alone must pay........

You see the Salafist world in Berlin being totally quiet and not uttering a word out of fear of being associated to him instead of cheering him as a IS fighter as did IS.... you

As I previously indicated the German security services know their bad apples as the arrest yesterday of two brothers that in fact were planning a Mall attack...the arrest of four in a Berlin apartment which the government has not said a single word on........

My complaint is the countless comments coming from US..UK interviews claiming that the Germans "failed on this and or that" or he slipped through the cracks etc.....all the while not fully understanding the legal ramifications the Germans jump through to ensure the "rule of law".....and these comments coming from US and UK sources all the while both US/UK claiming to be the epicenters of the rule of law....

While it is great to hear for the masses..."if he was so bad then why did they stop surveillance" ...without understanding what it takes to conduct manpower wise such a surveillance and with 550 known and identified bad apples that would require 14-15,000 surveillance personal and not even the US has that many...NOR does the US "know and track their own bad apples" as the repeated US homegrown attacks have shown us......

No one seems to mention that simple fact......

WHAT CrowBat mentioned to you recently....the German ability to raid in 200 locations at the exact same time when they forbid the Islamic religious group shows their ability to act in the face of "religious freedom" and protecting this civil society rule of law rights....has not been matched even by the US and UK...

davidbfpo
12-23-2016, 10:39 AM
BBC News reporting on this development, which has aspects not in the public domain:


Berlin market attack suspect Anis Amri has been shot dead by police in Milan, prosecutors say
Police say he was approached by officers during a routine patrol in the Sesto San Giovanni area on Friday
German officials have confirmed Amri's fingerprints were found inside the truck used in Monday's attack

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-38416137 and a little more on:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38415287

OUTLAW 09
12-23-2016, 03:01 PM
UPDATE....

The attacker was identified in a video of the attack scene eight hours after the attack…..there is a main train station stop within a ten minute walk from where he was videoed……

When he was stopped by a routine Carbineria person control point he opened fire……..he was carrying a rucksack with rail tickets inside….he first traveled to southern France and then via France to Milan……

Rumored that the Italian Carbineria was doing routine stops in the area where he had previously lived before going to jail in Italy……

Since he was being searched for across Europe surprised both the French did not check train passengers and the Italians checking on train arrivals in Milan which has one major exit point……

Amri pledges allegiance to Baghdadi in selfie video:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2468916/isis-release-video-of-berlin-attacker-anis-amri-pledging-allegiance-to-terror-leader-abu-bakr-al-baghdadi/

Appears this video was done after the attack which would confirm that he “joined” after the attack not before……this is reinforced by the fact that when IS released their claiming statement they did not name him...because they probably did not know who he was....

Secondary info…..he was seen in front of a well known Salafist mosque here in Berlin but talking with no one…….rumors have it the Berlin Salafist scene basically avoided him as he was to aggressive…..so again supports the fact he was not “radicalized” before the attack…….he seemed to have floated along the edges of the Salafist scene....

Another strange point….he elected to not go down shooting with Berlin police at the market after the attack and fled BUT chose to shot it out with the Italians….when he could have made a run for it....

Another strange point …his fleeing to France…….six weeks ago a Bulgarian resident here in Berlin was caught on CCTV kicking a young woman in her back and down a flight of concrete steps breaking her arm….the police went on social media and TV showing his photo…he was arrested on a bus arriving in Berlin from southern France……

There seems to be a southern France route known to local Berlin criminals….if they are fleeing Berlin…..and he was a common sight in those circles as he was dealing drugs at a number of the Berlin night scene locations......

OUTLAW 09
12-23-2016, 05:49 PM
1. Attacker video was made here in Berlin...a certain bridge in Alt Moabit during the daytime...from the weather in the background...was made day after the attack.....

2. Italian police stopped him at 0300 on a routine stop in a town near Milan..(there is a Salafist mosque in that town but no indication that he was headed there) as he was acting suspiciously to the police patrol..when they stopped him and asked for papers he opened fire on them....

3. Italians called him a "ghost" as he had no ID/travel documents on him...no cell phone ....just the train tickets in his rucksack

4. he had come via the French Alps into Turin....where he spent three hours before traveling on to Milan.... no indication why he spent 3 hours waiting in Turin when he could have gone straight through to Milan....

Northern Italy has a strong Salafist background.....how he got to the French town near the Italian border is not known at this time.....