"Hot Pursuit" Doctrine

[MattC86]

A quite interesting CFR Backgrounder on the legal doctrine of hot pursuit - originally part of the law of the seas, but now applied by countries seeking to justify cross-border raids. The backgrounder is focused on jihadist infiltration of Iraq over the Syrian border, but apples just as well to the Pakistan/Afghanistan border. It is undoubtedly a thorny legal issue:


Legal experts agree that the principle of “hot pursuit,” as it pertains to sovereign territories versus the high seas, remains unsettled. “Let’s say [U.S. forces] were to wait for a bunch of terrorists to cross into Iraq and launch an attack and then chase them over the [Syrian] border, no one will ever complain about that,” says Scharf. “But to invade another country without an actual pursuit on is going to stretch the idea of international law.”

Peter Danchin of the University of Maryland School of Law says if states want to prosecute someone for war crimes or crimes against humanity, usually they need to have them extradited. “This idea of ‘hot pursuit’ is just an attempt to twist the law of the sea doctrine into a self-defense idea. What you’re talking about is the use of force against the territory of another state,” which brings up touchy issues of state sovereignty. “Let’s say [the jihadis] go into Turkey?” he asks. “You’d have a hard time making the case that the 101st Airborne should go in and take them out without Turkish consent.” Further complicating the problem, Danchin argues, is that the United States is not the sovereign in Iraq. “It has fewer rights as an occupier than it does as a sovereign,” he says, referring to the legal use of force. David M. Crane, an expert on international law at Syracuse University, says if these foreign jihadis are apprehended on Syrian soil, they should be tried under Syrian domestic law. Any armed incursion by U.S. forces into Syria, he adds, would “ be a serious breach of international law and technically an act of war.”

Much more at http://www.cfr.org/publication/13440/.

(Additionally, the CFR just put out a report on the Pakistani Tribal Belt that I believed Westhawk referenced the other day, http://www.cfr.org/publication/16763/ )

Given the renewed attention to Afghanistan, and the calls for American troops to work over the border if necessary (as well as the revelation that the Pentagon and White House have restrained SOF commands eager to chase enemies into Pakistan), I think the legal niceties of the situation are irritating and inconvenient, but essential to the future of the US/Pakistan relationship. . . anyway, check it out for yourselves.

Regards,

Matt

[slapout9]

Thanks for posting and it is just another example of how law enforcment concepts are a great aid in the GWOT,Long War or what ever it is being called now.

[jmm99]

with some legal and histoirical assertions in the CFR article - e.g., on Villa and Caroline examples - as well as lack of specific references to those "some" who might agree with Max Boot's position.

Also, the domestic law enforcement rules on hot pursuit actually would cut agin allowing hot pursuit in this (international) context. I Law is still in the Bonnie & Clyde stage - Slapout will understand that.

Also, there are some practical problems with this very interesting theoretical problem. Right now, I don't have time to say much more.

The question, however, may become a reality.


Daily Times
Friday, July 18, 2008

Robert Gates warns of unilateral strikes

LAHORE: The United States has warned that it can conduct unilateral strikes inside Pakistan if it [Pakistan] does not take measures to stop Taliban activities, Aaj TV reported on Thursday. According to the channel, US Defence Secretary Robert Gates said that action in the Pak-Afghan border area was direly needed to mount pressure on the Taliban. He said it would be better if Pakistan exerted more pressure to check militant activities.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\07\18\story_18-7-2008_pg1_5

[jmm99]

from CFR article

Under what other legal circumstances could U.S. forces enter Syria?

..... Other experts point to the 1837 Caroline case, in which British and Canadian rebels crossed into U.S. territory and set the steamer Caroline ablaze, killing two Americans in the process. The Americans argued that the British claim of self-defense - the ship was suspected of ferrying arms to anti-British rebels - failed to “show a necessity of self-defense [that was] instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation,” a line of argument often cited by legal authorities to justify anticipatory self-defense.

This account is mostly screwed up (e.g., to point out only one serious error: not "British and Canadian rebels", but rather organized Canadian militia acting pursuant to their colonel's orders). The Brit claim was not "self-defense", but rather McLeod's "combatant immunity" (in modern terms) - which is quite a different thing.

The McLeod-Caroline case, in fact, is a US precedent for the proposition that there is no well-recognized general right of hot pursuit on land.

The following quotes are from an account of that case, published in 1881, 1899:

http://www.econlib.org/library/YPDBooks/Lalor/llCy694.html

By way of background, a significant number of US residents (organized into Hunters' Lodges from NY to Ohio) were intent on an invasion of Canada. The US Federal government took a dim view of their activities. Two of their leaders (Mackenzie and Johnson) were indicted and convicted in US Circuit Court for the Northern District of New York for violation of the Neutrality Act of 1818.

The Caroline was a US registered ship which was used to supply some of Mackenzie's bunch, who had seized Navy Island in the Niagara River (in Canadian territory). The McLeod case ensued.


McLEOD CASE, The (IN U. S. HISTORY). In 1837, after the suppression of the Canadian rebellion, or patriot war, a number of Canadian refugees and Americans, using New York state as a base of operations, seized Navy island, in the Niagara river, about two miles above the falls and within British jurisdiction, in order to keep the war alive. Col. McNabb, commanding the Canadian militia, sent a party, on the night of Dec. 29, 1837, to capture the steamer Caroline, which carried supplies to Navy island. The attacking party found her at a wharf on the American side of the river, captured her, after a conflict in which one American, Amos Durfee, was killed, and sent her over the falls in flames. In January, 1838, the British government, in an official communication to the government of the United States, assumed the entire responsibility for the burning of the Caroline.

In November, 1840, Alexander McLeod, while in New York state on business, aroused intense feeling among the people there by boasting of his exploits in the attack on the Caroline. He was arrested, lodged in jail in Lockport, and indicted in February, 1841, for murder. At first, bail was accepted, but this increased the excitement, and he was remanded to jail. The British minister demanded his release, in a note to the secretary of state, for the reasons that McLeod was acting under orders in an enterprise planned, executed and avowed by his superiors; that the question was one of international law, to be settled by the two national governments; that the courts of New York had not the means to judge or the right to decide such a question; and that the British government could not recognize the state jurisdiction of the case, but must hold the government of the United States responsible for McLeod.

In short, the Brits claimed that McLeod had "combatant immunity" (in modern terms) as a Canadian militia member; and the US Federal government agreed with the Brits ! As it turned out, both governments were acting on incorrect data (as found by the jury in McLeod's trial).


The new president, Harrison, and his cabinet were unanimous in considering the British claim just; but the minister was informed that it was an impossibility to release a person confined under judicial process, except by operation of law. At first the administration hoped that Gov. Seward, of New York, would order the prosecuting officer of the state to enter a nolle prosequi. The governor, however, refused to interfere, but directed that the trial, March 22, 1841, should take place before the chief justice of the state. The president then directed the attorney general of the United States to proceed to Lockport, see that McLeod had skillful counsel, furnish them with the evidence of the British government's official avowal of the burning of the Caroline, and take steps to transfer the case to the supreme court by writ of error, if McLeod's defense should be overruled.

New York disgreed, since the murder took place in NY, outside of the Canadian militia's "writ". The criminal action then proceeded in the NY court system.


McLeod was brought before the court [NY Court of Appeals] on writ of habeas corpus, and his discharge was asked on the grounds assigned above. The court, however, held that its jurisdiction over the case was complete; that there was no war in existence at the time in any form; that the burning of the Caroline was not an act of magistracy on the part of the Canadian authorities, since it was committed out of Canadian jurisdiction; that all the persons concerned in the affair were "individuals proceeding on their own responsibility," and liable either for arson or for murder; and that the indictment precluded McLeod's discharge upon habeas corpus.

In short, in the eyes of NY, McLeod was an "unlawful enemy combatant" (in modern terms).


The case finally came to nothing. McLeod, who seems to have been a liar as well as a braggart, proved an alibi in October 1841, and was acquitted; and congress, by act of Aug. 29, 1842, provided that if such cases should thereafter arise they should be transferred to the United States courts by writ of habeas corpus (See HABEAS CORPUS.) The British government July 28, 1842, apologized for the violation of Territory, and regretted that "explanation and apology was not immediately made"; the American government declared its satisfaction; and the case was ended.

So, the UK government felt a fool - it said McLeod was there as a soldier; he and his witnesses said he wasn't there at all. The witnesses who were to testify to his presence at the scene became "unavailable". The original UK protest was thus factually unsound - based on the trial evidence (not necessarily reality).

The important point in I Law (and to the doctrine of hot pursuit) is that the UK government, in the end, apologized for its troops' violation of US territory. Thus, McLeod is a US precedent AGAINST a general right of hot pursuit across international land boundaries.

Of course, other facts - UN resolutions; treaties, executive agreements, etc. - can provide rights of hot pursuit. Which brings us to the next post on that question.

[jmm99]

from CFR article

What are some historical examples of 'hot pursuit'?

History is replete with examples of foreign agents or armies crossing another state’s sovereign borders in pursuit of those suspected of committing crimes against another state. One famous example is the pursuit of Pancho Villa by U.S. forces into Mexico in 1916. The manhunt was in response to a cross-border raid of New Mexico by Pancho’s “Villistas,” though the pursuit failed and Villa escaped.

This is a famous example. Max Boot, The Savage Wars of Peace (2002), devotes a chapter to it (pp. 182-204). Villa's raid on Columbus, NM, on 9 Mar 1916, was reported to Pres. Wilson that morning. He immediately tasked the US Army to set off "in pursuit of Villa with the single object of capturing him and putting a stop to his forays." As we shall see, the Army modified the mission just a bit.

Lead elements of US forces crossed the border on 15 Mar (the main striking force of the 7th, 10th, 11th and 13th CAV would soon follow). The joint congressional resolution, approving the expedition, was duly enacted on 17 Mar (Boot, p.371 n.190). So, domestic US law was satisfied. What about I Law ?

Boot explains that as follows (p.190):


"To give an air of legality to this invasion of another country, President Wilson invoked an old U.S.-Mexico treaty that gave each side the right of "hot pursuit" into each other's territory on the trail of bandits. First Chief [President of Mexico] Carranza agreed to allow American troops to enter Mexican territory as long as the U.S. would agree to let Mexican troops enter U.S. territory in a similar situation in the future."

So, the Villa expedition was supported, in I Law, by both a treaty and an executive agreement.

Boot's tone seems (IMO) to suggest this was a "make weight" legal argument; e.g., dust off an old and unused treaty to justify an "invasion of another country" (his words, not mine). But, not so ...

The treaty had been used before by both sides because of the difficult border situation, where many "hostiles" (my words) attacked both countries from border sanctuaries. An example, from 30 years before, was Gen. Crooks 1885 expedition into Mexico.


In 1882, Crook was recalled to Territory of Arizona to conduct a campaign against the remaining Apaches. Geronimo surrendered in January 1884. Then, deprived of traditional tribal rights, short on rations and homesick Geronimo took flight from the San Carlos reservation in May 1885 and fled to Mexico to resume the life that he loved.

Crook ordered more than five-thousand U.S. troopers and more than 100 scouts, including Al Sieber, Tom Horn and Mickey Free (the white child Cochise was falsely accused of abducting), to take the field in southwestern New Mexico and southeastern Arizona with orders to protect settlers and hunt down the hostiles. As authorized by an earlier treaty with Mexico, Crook dispatched two columns across the border into Mexico and the Sierra Madre with the same orders.

http://www.vfw2951sf.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=64

So, the Villa expedition was not unique - and very legal, based on prior precedents.

What is very legal is not necessarily practical or guaranteed of good results. Thus, Boot notes (p.202):


"When Pershing entered Mexico, Villa had no more than 400 demoralized men. When he left, Villa had some 5,000 confident fighters and was more powerful than at any time since early 1915. Moreover, his resurgence may be attributed, at least in part, to his skill at playing on nationalistic resentment of the armed gringos in their midst."

A little blowback in that aspect of the expedition.

Another aspect of the Villa expedition, relevant to the present, was the Army's "modification" of its tasked mission (Boot at 189-190), which I will paraphrase. Newton Baker (SecWar) conveyed Wilson's order ("capture him") to Hugh Scott (Army CoS), who questioned making war on one man - what if Villa took a train to "Guatamala, Yucatan, or South America". Was the Army supposed to chase him there ? No, that was not what Baker wanted. So, Scott "suggested", what you really want us to do is to capture or destroy "his band". Yup, that's it, said Baker. Thus, military common sense won that day; and its modified task was to end when "Villa's band or bands are known to be broken up."


-------------------------------------------
Bonnie & Clyde

When automobiles became crime tools, law enforcement was faced with pursuit problems caused by ancient jurisdictional boundary lines, in two areas: intrastate and interstate.

The intrastate problem had two aspects. The first was the limit for municipal departments (down to the village constable). The second was the limit for county departments (county lines). The solution was adoption of state statutes, expanding the territorial limits in hot pursuit situations - e.g., county mounties could cross county lines in pursuit. The exact solution varied from state to state (I imagine that Michigan and Alabama have slightly different statutes). In any event, the various agencies within a state have SOPs spelling out what their officers should do in hot pursuit situations.

The interstate problem is more akin to I Law, since our states are sovereign (more or less). The problem of crossing state lines was solved by uniform state acts (e.g., Uniform Act on Fresh Pursuit) and/or by interstate compacts ("treaties" between states). Those solutions were well in place by the 1930's.

See, as examples (you can Google up a ton of stuff):


(snip, but has relevant provisions)
Interstate Rendition. Uniform Act on Fresh Pursuit
Columbia Law Review, Vol. 38, No. 4 (Apr., 1938), pp. 705-709 (article consists of 5 pages)
Published by: Columbia Law Review Association, Inc.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1116451


(snip, but has relevant provisions)
The Interstate Compact. A Device for Crime Repression
Gordon Dean
Law and Contemporary Problems, Vol. 1, No. 4, Extending Federal Powers over Crime (Oct., 1934), pp. 460-471 (article consists of 12 pages)
Published by: Duke University School of Law

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1189662

International law (except as to high seas piracy, which has always been a "universal jurisdiction") is more in the pre-Bonnie & Clyde state. Cases such as McLeod-Caroline establish that there is no well-recognized general right of hot pursuit on land. However, the right of hot pursuit can be established by treaty (a public document) as in the Villa and Apache examples. It can also be established by executive agreements (which can be public or secret) between heads of state.

The question of hot pursuit by Afghan-NATO-US forces into Pakistan has been the subject of a number of Pakistani news reports over the last 8 months - many more recently. Some evidence suggests that there is an executive agreement covering that issue; but that there is some dispute as to its exact parameters. See attached .doc file (too many URLs and leads to set out in this post); the main texts (not included in the attached file for obvious reasons) have the "rest of the story".

[Fuchs]

No matter what legal experts say (especially those from the pursuing country are pretty much irrelevant) - any more violations of foreign nation's sovereignty by specific countries would only deteriorate the international security situation.

Something like the violation of national sovereignty for such a low-ranking reason like pursuit of some irregular fighters can over time create (reinforce) the perception that a country considers all non-allied countries as fair game.

It's pretty bad that the Israelis and Turks very often cross their borders.
The Turks have the excuse that Northern Iraq is/was not controlled by the central government and the Israelis pay for their behaviour with 'poor' relations to all nearby nations.

It's really not worth it.

[jmm99]

The US-Mexico treaty allowing hot pursuit was made in 1880.


The US Army on the Mexican Border: A Historical Perspective
Matt M. Matthews
CSI - The Long War Series, Occasional Paper 22
....
(p.53)
With the Mexican Government now fully committed to policing its side of the border, President Hays repealed his order of hot pursuit in early 1880. Under a new treaty with Diaz, both countries would have limited correlative rights to conduct hot pursuits across the border. By the summer of 1880, relations between the United States and Mexico had greatly improved. As an example, the US Army and the Mexican Army worked together in a limited fashion to hunt down Apaches under Victorio and Geronimo in the 1880s. By the end of the 1880s, the US Army and the Mexican Army, as Leiker earlier suggested, had indeed transformed the frontier into a border.

http://bibdaily.com/pdfs/Army%20on%20Mexican%20border%20OP22.pdf

Some good history in this paper.

[jmm99]

by Fuchs

...any more violations of foreign nation's sovereignty by specific countries...

...such a low-ranking reason like pursuit of some irregular fighters...

1. For discussion purposes, what "specific countries" (besides Turkey and Israel) ?

2. Are there "middle-ranking" or "high ranking" reasons that (IYO) allow either self-defense (Article 52) or hot pursuit reactions ?

BTW: the general Turkish position on PKK seems to be this:


COUNTERING TERRORISM AND INTERNATIONAL LAW: THE TURKISH EXPERIENCE
Sadi CAYCI
.....
(pp 141-142)
Rules of Engagement

The legal basis for using armed force is different in law enforcement and combat operations. Because the Turkish Government did not recognize the existence of a state of armed conflict in countering PKK terrorism, security forces had to operate within a limited authority. As a rule, use of force was limited to self-defence, execution of a legitimate mission and enforcing the law. Military necessity, use of minimal force, and proportionality were the other relevant criteria.
.....
For cross-border military operations, troops must be educated on the nuance between a self-defence operation and hot pursuit, and in the context of hot pursuit, operations in international spaces or a foreign territory. Any operation in foreign territory requires a special agreement, arrangement, or permission by the State in which it occurs. In all other cases, where the territorial State is either unable / unwilling or itself the enemy, the legal basis for using armed force will be self-defence.

from TERRORISM AND INTERNATIONAL LAW (2002)

http://www.michaelschmitt.org/images/4996terr.pdf

As I understand it, they claim an executive agreement with Saddam as justifying hot pursuit. Generally, a successor government takes on its predecessor's international agreements. They also claim self-defense (Article 51) because of PKK intrusions, etc. Since the PKK are "irregular fighters", the Turks' actions would seem to be based on "such a low-ranking reason" - nicht wahr ?

PS: In general, I do believe that cross-border intrusions are often "not worth it"; and, in many cases, are illegal or of questionable legality. Also, legal experts do have biases - for and against.

[slapout9]

Interesting discussion.
My comments as far as hot pursuit. As jmm has mentioned in jurisdictions within the US, states,counties,cities have special procedures that allow them to do this. In the International situation you would also need these agreements before or you could have big problems:eek:

Also inside the US, Law Enforcement is responsible for paying for everything they break or damage in the act of the pursuit. That could be a real issue with International pursuits if you injure,kill a lot of people or destroy a lot of property.


Much as been talked about the law in a COIN/GWOT type environment and this is a classic case where the Lawyers:eek: should be doing something to allow such agreements between countries and on a larger scale the US legal community should have reviewed and or made recommendations to change or modify any International legal agreement that is binding on the US to make sure the enemy can not use it against us in away that the original agreement was not intended. Synchronize the Spirit of the Law with the Letter of the Law.

[selil]

Along the United States with Canada there was an interesting incident in the 80s(?). In hot pursuit of a fleeing felon a Sheriffs deputy crossed into Canada and drove about 500 yards (no border crossing or anything). Stopping the fleeing bad guy figured he was home free (so to speak) the RCMP showed up. The RCMP turned the felon loose and stripped the Deputy of all his weapons, locked him up, and for several hours were none to nice. Not, but a few months later the exact opposite happened. The RCMP crossed into the United States and the bad guy (thinking "hey I'm out of your country neener neener") stopped a few hundred yards into the USA. The Sheriffs deputies who showed up helped the RCMP out, handed the bad guy over, and escorted them to the border.

Now the veracity of the above I can't be sure of because I remember it from my classes which are so many decades ago. The example stuck with me because the doctrine, treaties, and extraditions for hot pursuit involved are not fair, they are not equal, and effect each side differently.

[Norfolk]

Along the United States with Canada there was an interesting incident in the 80s(?). In hot pursuit of a fleeing felon a Sheriffs deputy crossed into Canada and drove about 500 yards (no border crossing or anything). Stopping the fleeing bad guy figured he was home free (so to speak) the RCMP showed up. The RCMP turned the felon loose and stripped the Deputy of all his weapons, locked him up, and for several hours were none to nice. Not, but a few months later the exact opposite happened. The RCMP crossed into the United States and the bad guy (thinking "hey I'm out of your country neener neener") stopped a few hundred yards into the USA. The Sheriffs deputies who showed up helped the RCMP out, handed the bad guy over, and escorted them to the border.

Now the veracity of the above I can't be sure of because I remember it from my classes which are so many decades ago. The example stuck with me because the doctrine, treaties, and extraditions for hot pursuit involved are not fair, they are not equal, and effect each side differently.

There was an incident last year where much the same happened as in your first example, Sam: the Sheriff's Deputy crossed the Peace Bridge between Buffalo and Fort Erie in hot pursuit of an armed suspect. Canada Customs border agents are not armed (something that the present Government is trying to change, but with considerable difficulty), so the suspect simply barrelled on through the Customs check points. Caused a bit of a fuss, but really, when one side will not take full responsibility for security on its side of a border, then incidents like these are just waiting to happen.

[jmm99]

One way to avoid international border issues is this Weslaco, Texas, Police Department SOP.


Weslaco Police Department
Emergency Driving
......
Section 4: High Speed Pursuit Policy
.....
4.06 - A peace officer in high-speed pursuit may never enter the Republic of Mexico, and any such high-speed pursuit must cease at the International border.

http://www.textfiles.com/law/crimeftr.023

Given the fatality rate among Mexican police officers, this might be a life-saving policy for Texan officers.

On a more northern note, here is an article in the Blue Line (April 2005; Canadian LE mag), where a very large problem is firearms policy.


by Morley Lymburner

The US Department of Homeland Security is working with a severe handicap. It is called Canada. In my recent investigations along the Canadian/US border in BC I have found that this ailment is experienced by US County Sheriffs Departments as well as the Canadian Border Security Agency(CBSA). It is more clearly recognized as the Canadian Firearms Registration laws and an awkward Department of External Affairs.

My investigation to determine if there is any common ground to get around these issues was met with the blank stares of a lot of dedicated but long suffering faces on both sides of the border.
........
Why not have a unified border patrol? At the present time we have the US Border Patrol to the south and effectively nothing (or at most not much) north of the border.
......
If anyone had doubts about the effectiveness of Canada’s border policing one need not go any further than recent events in Quebec. The last vestiges of RCMP Border Patrol was effectively abandoned in favour of a centralized anti-organized crime unit based in Montreal.

www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/Borders2005_04.pdf

A good article.

Our tri-county area has no problem with land-based international hot pursuit, since our Canadian border is out in Lake Superior. And yes, Houghton County SD has a cruiser (not much of a speedboat, though); and yes, there have been hot pursuits. Also a Coast Guard station here (better equipped). No recollection of anyone having to chase to the border - so, no war stories.

PS (to Slapout) - legal review (for US best interests) should be by State's Legal Advisor's office; but that reflects a culture that is not mine - and probably not yours. Call up your friend Condi and suggest she hire the two of us. I don't mind working with cops - even ancient ones.

[selil]

When it comes to border disputes this is my favorite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War

Check out the section "resolution"... Tea and crumpets with the other side is the civilized form of occupation.

[Ken White]

"I don't mind working with cops - even ancient ones." (emphasis added / kw)

Respectfully,

Ken the Kid

[jmm99]

In reviewing my posts above, I may have created some confusion between what was the rule of law adopted by the NY state court in trying McLeod [the McLeod Case];


People v McLeod, 25 Wend. (NY) 483 (1841) (unanimous opinion of 3 justice panel denying habeas corpus, written by Justice Esel Cowen); Review of the Opinion of Judge Cowen, 26 Wend (NY) 663 (1841) (condemnation of Justice Cowen's opinion, originally in pamphlet form, written by Judge David B. Talmadge, of the Superior Court of the City of New York, a lower court judge)

Holding in McLeod Case:

1. that its [NY's] jurisdiction over the case was complete;

2. that there was no war in existence at the time in any form;

3. that the burning of the Caroline was not an act of magistracy on the part of the Canadian authorities, since it was committed out of Canadian jurisdiction;

4. that all the persons concerned in the affair were "individuals proceeding on their own responsibility," and liable either for arson or for murder; and

5. that the indictment precluded McLeod's discharge upon habeas corpus.

and the rule of law arising out of the US-UK Diplomatic Correspondence leading to Treaty of 1842, between Daniel Webster and his counterpart, Lord Ashburton (Jul-Aug 1842; 3 letters) [the Caroline Affair]. While their statements were obiter dicta (not adopted by the contemporaneous case, nor included in the 1842 treaty), they became the "Caroline Rule" in international law.

The NY rule in McLeod's Case limited interventionists much more (and denied combatant immunity) than the "Caroline Rule". The latter was still strict as to interventions (e.g., hot pursuit and self-defense), but allowed combatant immunity whether the intervention was legal or not.

The following article, by a former Canadian Forces officer, outlines the development of the "Caroline Rule" from the diplomatic correspondence through WWII, and then with particular attention to the UN Charter and developments thereafter.


Journal of the International Law Department of the University of Miskolc
Miskolc Journal of International Law
Miskolci Nemzetközi Jogi Közlemények
Vol. 1. (2004) No. 2. pp. 104-120.
Louis-Philippe ROUILLARD [1]:
The Caroline Case : Anticipatory Self-Defence in Contemporary International Law

On June 1st, 2002, the President of the Republic of the United States of America announced to the graduating class of the United States Military Academy at West Point, and to the world at large, that his Government is determined to guarantee the safety of America and that it is determined to wage preventive wars to do so if necessary [2]. The following National Security Strategy released in September 2002 reflected this change of policy [3]. It went from deterrence and containment to first strike against rogue States and terrorists. Its chapter V stipulates that this is rooted in the changes of circumstances, mainly that terrorists and rogue States will not be deterred from using weapons of mass destruction. Therefore, it argues that the United States can rest upon a long-held option of pre-emptive action to counter a threat to national security. In fact, chapter V goes as far as to say that this option has long been recognised under international law and that the United States need not suffer injury before they can take action to defend themselves [4].

However, the legal basis for such a bold policy has not been clearly stated by the United States’ government. And of what has been stated, there has been a very one-sided version of the applicable international law of the use of force prior to the suffering of an armed attack. While the Administration has claim high and mighty its right to use force pre-emptively, most scholars have disputed this notion and minimized the reach of the custom that is currently recognised in international law. While a history of the use of force has existed for centuries, the right of self-defence under the Charter of the United Nations does not support a broad right of pre-emptive actions.
.....
[1] ] The author is Captain (ret’d) Louis-Philippe F. Rouillard, Canadian Forces. He has served in Bosnia-Hercegovina in 2001-2002 and has been granted BMASc, LL.L., DEEI, MA War Studies and LL.M. He is a former lecturer in International Humanitarian Law at the Royal Military College of Canada and currently is a Ph.D. candidate at Pázmány Péter Catholic University, Budapest

http://www.uni-miskolc.hu/~wwwdrint/20042rouillard1.htm

He and I would generally agree on Afghanistan; but disagree on Iraq (stage 1). The latter is not within the scope of this thread (hot pursuit and limited self-defense interventions) - IMO.

[jmm99]

It turns out that the pig was owned by an Irishman, Charles Griffin, who was employed by the Hudson's Bay Company to run the sheep ranch.

Sounds suspicious to me.

Ireland, O Ireland,
Land of my forefathers,
A land where men are men,
And sheep are very nervous.

Baaaaaa........

[Rifleman]

"A peace officer in high-speed pursuit may never enter the Republic of Mexico, and any such high-speed pursuit must cease at the International border."

So, looks lahk ye gotta PIT that sumbuck before he hits the border, raht? ;)

Hmmm.....how'd you like to see an up armored Hummer PIT a Toyota pickup running for the Syrian border? :rolleyes:

[selil]

I looked for evidence on the net with no luck so it is likely a folk tale but I thought the Texas Rangers since the days of the Republic of Texas reserved the right to enter Mexico in pursuit of fugitives. This was supposedly agreed to by Mexico. Nothing on the net I can find so likely a tall tale like many surrounding the rangers.

[Rifleman]

In retired Texas Ranger Joaquin Jackson's book One Ranger, he tells of going into Mexico twice. He had to have permission from the Mexican authorities.

[selil]

In retired Texas Ranger Joaquin Jackson's book One Ranger, he tells of going into Mexico twice. He had to have permission from the Mexican authorities.

So it sounds like it may be "sort of" true. Interesting. Adding another book to the Amazon wish list.

[Rifleman]

IIRC, he was accompanied by Mexican authorities and did not operate independently. I can't remember for sure and I have no way to check it at the moment, since I loaned the book to someone in my department.

One of the incidents was the Colorado Canyon shootings in 1988. Several Mexican boys fired at a rafting party in the Rio Grande from the Mexican side, so there were crime scenes on both sides of the river that had to be worked.

I can't remember the exact nature of the other incident but it seems like he went after a fugitive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaquin_Jackson

[selil]

Just as an aside "hot pursuit" doctrine is very interesting as it has wider implications when dealing with telecommunications. Between network treaties, tariffs, neutrality restrictions and national laws chasing thieves through the winding structures of the global grid and financial systems is daunting. The differing laws and social constructs become huge issues for even local constabulary forces. The interesting thing contrary to public perception is that the United States systems are often the offending locus for entities.

[davidbfpo]

One of the odd, apparently un-expected lessons of the Lockerbie bombing, in 1988, was the lack of any law on cross-border law enforcement issues between England and Scotland. I recall reading a document on what happened and what was required. No idea if anything changed. I know we were taught that a police officer from England and Wales crossed the border we had no legal powers and had to be accompanied by a Scottish officer(s).

Vaguely recall some legislation was mooted to allow for national law enforcement. Incidentally Northern Ireland, seperated by a stretch of sea, is in the same position - no mainland police have powers there.

davidbfpo

[slapout9]

(emphasis added / kw)

Respectfully,

Ken the Kid


Yea, I read that. :eek:

[jmm99]

-----------------------------------
Texas Rangers

CSI article cited in post # 7 above.

http://bibdaily.com/pdfs/Army%20on%20Mexican%20border%20OP22.pdf

has some Texas Ranger history in chap. 2 (mid-1800's) and chap 4 (Villa era) - which led to some problems in those eras. Nothing on Texas Rangers in that article after the Villa era.

---------------------------------------
For a general overview of international police cooperation, see list of Mathieu Deflem's publications at

http://www.cas.sc.edu/socy/faculty/deflem/zcvpubl.html#articles

and more specifically, as to US, Canada and Mexico:


International Police Cooperation in Northern America:
A Review of Practices, Strategies, and Goals in the United States, Mexico, and Canada

http://www.cas.sc.edu/socy/faculty/deflem/zAMINPO.htm


The Boundaries of International Cooperation:
Problems and Prospects of U.S.-Mexican Policing

http://www.cas.sc.edu/socy/faculty/deflem/zintcor.htm

-----------------------------------------------
Hummer


Report: Border Patrol confirms 29 incursions by Mexican officials into U.S. in 2006
By Olga R. Rodriguez
ASSOCIATED PRESS

3:33 p.m. January 9, 2008

MEXICO CITY – The U.S. Border Patrol confirmed 29 recorded incursions into the U.S. by Mexican military or other government agents in the last 12 months, according to a report made public Wednesday by a watchdog group.

Judicial Watch, a conservative, U.S.-based public interest group, said in a news release that Mexican officials were armed in 17 of the 29 incursions during the fiscal year between October 2005 to October 2006.
......
U.S. officials also have been accused of incursions into Mexico. In November 2006, U.S. Border Patrol agents chasing suspected drug traffickers on the Texas border allegedly crossed into Mexico and had a brief standoff with Mexican police officers.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20080109-1533-mexico-us-borderincursions.html


Mexican incursions inflame border situation
House panel told of shootings by gunmen in Mexican military uniforms
By Brock N. Meeks
Chief Washington correspondent
MSNBC
updated 9:33 p.m. ET, Tues., Feb. 7, 2006
......
An incident last month in Hudspeth County, Texas, along the border east of El Paso
.....
On Jan. 23, a group of Texas deputy sheriffs, acting on a tip, intercepted a group of drug smugglers
.....
When confronted by the deputies, the drug smugglers raced back across the border while men in Mexican military uniforms, driving a Humvee, “took up a defensive position” that Hudspeth County Sheriff Arvin West described as a "military maneuver."
.....
Nothing unusual

Mexican soldiers caught inside U.S. boundaries “isn’t a new phenomenon,” said David Aguilar, chief of the U.S. Border Patrol. Although the Mexican military has an “internal policy” that states they won’t operate within about two miles of the U.S., that policy is routinely violated or simply ignored, he said. “We often spot them” near or inside U.S. borders, Aguilar said.

And on several occasions the U.S. has chased, apprehended and even detained members of the Mexican military, Aguilar said during his testimony. However, the U.S. has no concrete evidence that the Mexican military is in any way involved in drug smuggling, Aguilar was quick to point out.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11226144

Looks like the Hummer is more likely to be heading north to protect the Toyota heading south to the RG.


(photo caption from above url)
Unidentified men unload bundles of drugs from a SUV that became stuck in the Rio Grande at Neely's Crossing, east of El Paso. Men in Mexican military uniforms and armed with automatic weapons provided cover for the group, according to Hudspeth County Sheriff deputies that confronted the group.

[jmm99]

Are there three folks standing around the HV ?

[slapout9]

Ah Ha:eek: I new the shots came from the Grassy Knoll:wry:

[jmm99]

right - and the photo quality is on the same par.

Are you old enough to remember that motorcade ?

I was a punk kid in college, sitting in the Dean of Students office, when someone ran by yelling "the President's been shot". The thought went through my head - "who the hell would want to shoot Van Pelt (the president of MTU)". Which proves that initial impressions are often wrong.

[slapout9]

right - and the photo quality is on the same par.

Are you old enough to remember that motorcade ?

I was a punk kid in college, sitting in the Dean of Students office, when someone ran by yelling "the President's been shot". The thought went through my head - "who the hell would want to shoot Van Pelt (the president of MTU)". Which proves that initial impressions are often wrong.


The truth comes out you are older than me:) I was in the 4rd grade home sick from school and will never forget it. Since then I have followed all the investigations and re-investigations about who did what.

[jmm99]

on that one. From my perspective (66 in August), you are still in the little kid range - but fast approaching ancienthood.

But, not in KW's league, since I was 8 when I was reading about his adventures (actually USMC's) at Inchon and the frozen North in the Saturday Evening Post.

[Ken White]

...But, not in KW's league, since I was 8 when I was reading about his adventures (actually USMC's) at Inchon and the frozen North in the Saturday Evening Post.a party in the late 70s that she recalled being in the Second grade (8? Probably...) and watching as the local National Guard unit went off to fight in Korea.

But it's close... :D

Okay, slap, you're home free. ;)