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MikeF
04-14-2009, 11:08 PM
One thing that we seem to not yet have a handle on is what the true nature of our enemy is. After reading 3 Cups of Tea, I started given some serious thought to GEN Bashir's comment that the enemy was ignorance.

I'm not sure if you've ever watched a suicide bomber's video where he gives his testimony before martyrdom, but it is intense. In Zaganiyah, we started recovering the videos after the blast. These were our neighbors blowing themselves up so it became a bit personal. After we redeployed, non-religious teenage girls from Diyala River Valley began volunteering or being coerced. I wanted to understand why because that is the only way to stop it- not counter-IED measures- a holistic approach...I read through every translated document available on Open Source that I could find.

Here's my take:

In the same parallel that x is a function derived from y and depicted numerically on a graph, the Arab world is a wonderful, mystical land full of multiple paradoxes competing and contrasting directly with traditional western rational thought, norms, and values. This land that provided the world with Hammurabi’s law, algebra, and three religions coexists within the same mosaic that introduced honor killings, suicide bombers, and assassins. This cradle of civilization ebbs and flows in the persistent and unrelenting current of conflict with modernity while defying western utopian dreams of perpetual peace. This land contradicts and conforms in a beauty unresolved leaving most unfamiliar unnerved striving to determine some rhyme and reason to it all.

What is al Qaeda? The active absence of hope and passion skewed in anger. Tumbling, spiraling down, the Islamic Revolution unfolds in search of deep introspection. Nearly four score past, Sayyid Qutb questioned his isolation, unhappiness, and loneliness. Bitterness derived from grievances revealed, theorems proposed juxtaposed to uneducated masses; Muslim Brotherhood evolves. All for naught in distaste for compassion. Self-denial self-inflicted for naught in the lack of creativity, curiosity, and thought. No renewal of the mind, the martyr self-destructs. Who will teach the children to read? Temporal thoughts temper tolerance tolerant to teaching towards temperance. Anarchy ensues. Victims victimized verily refusing validation.

Most of this can be described by The Sayyid Qutb Reader by Albert Bergesen.

Today, two authors suggested a radical approach to defeating AQ.

How to Beat al Qaeda at Its Own Game (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4820)

By Frank J. Cilluffo, Daniel Kimmage


You've probably never heard of Badr Mish'al al-Harbi, but to many, he's a hero. The star of a June 2008 Internet video called "The State of Islam [Shall] Endure," Harbi appeared under the nom de guerre Abu Omar al-Kuwaiti to sing the praises of martyrdom. Two months earlier, the Kuwaiti newspaper Al-Qabas had profiled him, describing the young man as brave and pious. Today, there are 2,000 Google Arabic hits for his pseudonym.
Harbi's ticket to stardom came postmortem: On April 26, 2008, he blew himself up during a series of al Qaeda attacks in Mosul, Iraq. Soon after, Harbi's comrades in arms succeeded in turning him into an online hero. The victims, Iraqi Muslims, became a statistic.

The story of Badr al-Harbi is a case study of a battleground in the "war on terror" that has long been ignored: the struggle to control the narrative. Contrast the murderer-hero's popularity with the anonymity of his victims, and it becomes clear that al Qaeda has mastered and monopolized the storytelling.

Although elaborate tales such as Harbi's might appear to border on fiction, al Qaeda's control over the publicly told narrative has real consequences across the world. Terrorist radicalization and recruitment are a byproduct of the movies, songs, poetry, essays, and books that tell an emotionally charged story with distinctive vocabulary, clear-cut heroes and villains, and larger-than-life symbols. The story al Qaeda and its ilk tell is about a forceful response to victimization. It works by tapping into real and perceived grievances and peppering the narrative with analogies that fuse history and myth into a powerful sense of identity and purpose.


They may be onto something. The real question is- Is it really this simple?

v/r

Mike

George L. Singleton
04-15-2009, 03:18 AM
Yes Mike it really is that simple.

And better use of Voice of America, radio and TV, could help turn this whole war around.

We are talking psyops and better propaganda, which we have thus far done a punk job on.

ODB
04-15-2009, 03:50 AM
this in terms the family can understand. I get them to think, what if a foreign nation was here in the States? How would you react? If one thinks in terms of the number of people who would have the conviction to do whatever necessary to win vs. those who would take no stance, is it really any different? How would our media operate differently? Think of the psyops you would develop, the propaganda opportunities.

jmm99
04-15-2009, 04:20 AM
Starting with the enemy, Zawahiri's "Jihad, Martyrdom, and the Killing of Innocents", found in the Al Qaeda Reader (http://www.amazon.com/Al-Qaeda-Reader-Raymond-Ibrahim/dp/038551655X) (with other important statements), is required reading.

There are theological holes (from the Islamic perspective) in his arguments; but they have to addressed by Muslims - not Christians, such as George, JMM and MikeF.

For a different kind of martyr, study the pre-Constantinian Christian martyrs, who as pacifists were willing to die for their faith; but not to kill for it. Then fast forward to the Jesuit Order (not pacific) and its martyrs - as to which, the Jesuit Relations (http://puffin.creighton.edu/jesuit/relations/) (Thwaites English translation) are a ready source.

While I agree with the content of the message which the authors in Mike's link want to convey,


The story of al Qaeda's victims must be told compellingly and exhaustively -- from the World Trade Center to the weddings, funerals, schools, mosques, and hotels where suicide bombers have brought untold grief to thousands of families, tribes, and communities throughout the Muslim world. That narrative could tap online social networks, creating a Facebook of the bereaved that crosses borders and cultures. A series of public service announcements, timed after attacks, could detail the innocent lives snuffed out by al Qaeda.

A recent symposium hosted by the secretary-general of the United Nations points the way forward: an international, multilingual effort to sponsor networks of Web sites, publications, and television programming. The United Nations can and should play a significant convening role, bringing together victims to help meet their material needs and raising awareness by providing platforms through which to share their stories.

The U.S. government also has a critical role to play in creating a framework for victims' stories. No single agency will lead; the days of centralized, top-down communications campaigns are over. Nongovernmental organizations and millions of private citizens will make this work by adding their own experiences to the tales. Adopting this kind of decentralization, the Obama administration can make a clean break with its predecessor's strategy.

I believe that message will be effective only if it is delivered and controlled by Muslims.

--------------------------

One could also contrast the Canadian Jesuits' cult of martyrdom with the culture of the CFM-Canada, which was often at odds.

William F. Owen
04-15-2009, 05:41 AM
You've probably never heard of Badr Mish'al al-Harbi, but to many, he's a hero. The star of a June 2008 Internet video called "The State of Islam [Shall] Endure," Harbi appeared under the nom de guerre Abu Omar al-Kuwaiti to sing the praises of martyrdom.

Never heard of him, and exactly how many people think he's a hero. What is more, how many of those people can actually exert operational and strategic influence.

Sorry, I can't take this stuff seriously. It's an argument without evidence, and like a lot of stuff that sounds good, leads you no where, unless you enjoy rubbing your chin, about all "wicked problems" and "complexity" some cling to in order to promote agendas.

Majormarginal
04-15-2009, 07:54 AM
jmm99 How do you know all this stuff? I am amazed.

MikeF
04-15-2009, 01:41 PM
Never heard of him, and exactly how many people think he's a hero. What is more, how many of those people can actually exert operational and strategic influence.

Sorry, I can't take this stuff seriously. It's an argument without evidence, and like a lot of stuff that sounds good, leads you no where, unless you enjoy rubbing your chin, about all "wicked problems" and "complexity" some cling to in order to promote agendas.

I'm sorry you feel that way Wilf. I don't have any answers that is why I ask the questions. The only agenda is that maybe people will talk about it. That's it. Personally, I think you and others here come the closest in defining anything towards pragmatic, realistic answers.

My counter-argument would be that if we don't talk about it, it will lead us to nowhere. Furthermore, no "solution" currently being implement is supported by evidence.



v/r

Mike

jmm99
04-15-2009, 05:30 PM
I read a lot in certain areas that are of special interest to me. Move a bit outside of those areas and I'm a total dummy :D - which means I listen up a lot to what others say.

William F. Owen
04-15-2009, 06:50 PM
I'm sorry you feel that way Wilf. I don't have any answers that is why I ask the questions. The only agenda is that maybe people will talk about it. That's it. Personally, I think you and others here come the closest in defining anything towards pragmatic, realistic answers.

...and I am sorry not to be more constructive. It was not your agenda I was referring to. Your question is one worth asking, but I strongly caution against assuming all the questions and observations posed by such articles are worthwhile.

If there is merit in understanding an enemy, it is in how to break his will and subvert his arguments, not understanding him, so as you can empathise with the SOB, and live happily ever after.

Until the enemy gives up the policies you find unacceptable, his physical defeat has got to be the primary purpose.

That is as close to being pragmatic and realistic as I might ever get.

jmm99
04-15-2009, 07:31 PM
from Wilf
Until the enemy gives up the policies you find unacceptable, his physical defeat has got to be the primary purpose.

the appropriate tactic was physically to defeat Gandhi ?

Not a very strenuous task, based on his photographs. ;)

MikeF
04-15-2009, 09:18 PM
If there is merit in understanding an enemy, it is in how to break his will and subvert his arguments, not understanding him, so as you can empathise with the SOB, and live happily ever after.

Until the enemy gives up the policies you find unacceptable, his physical defeat has got to be the primary purpose.

As usual, I agree with you, but we do not seem to want to use our nuclear weapons as a true deterrance so I'm just looking for other alternatives.

JMM may be onto something with the Gandhi stuff.

And no, I have not joined the "Go Nuke or go home crowd.":eek:

v/r

Mike

William F. Owen
04-16-2009, 04:20 AM
the appropriate tactic was physically to defeat Gandhi ?

Not a very strenuous task, based on his photographs. ;)

Good one...but that was Politics, that never became war. Gandhi was a lawyer. The British had already crushed the violent means, and what many don't know is Gandhi implicitly threatened violence. He always told the British they did not have enough troops to suppress an Indian wide violent rebellion.

jcustis
04-16-2009, 04:37 AM
Yes Mike it really is that simple.

And better use of Voice of America, radio and TV, could help turn this whole war around.

We are talking psyops and better propaganda, which we have thus far done a punk job on.


I don't think so, and don't agree that better propaganda (via VoA) is the answer. Sometimes, folks see through that for the sham work that it is. Often, the simple fact remains that our ideas and constructs just don't translate over. Add to that the fact that within societies such as the tribal, Arab, and Islamic one we worked so hard to shape and control in Iraq, any message coming from us is going to be ignored and downplayed, and information operations can be a tall order.

Providing accurate facts that get ahead of jihadist information, is sometimes the best that we can do, methinks.

ODB
04-16-2009, 05:24 AM
How we think we can:

a. Figure out another culture

b. Figure out why they do what they do

c. Figure out how to change them

When we can't even do it in our own country.

That just might be the problem, stop putting so much thought into, crush their "nuts" and eventually they'll get tired of it or run out of people......

MikeF
04-16-2009, 05:37 AM
How we think we can:

a. Figure out another culture

b. Figure out why they do what they do

c. Figure out how to change them

When we can't even do it in our own country.

That just might be the problem, stop putting so much thought into, crush their "nuts" and eventually they'll get tired of it or run out of people......


That leads to the real questions we don't seem to want to ask...

1. What are we doing?

2. Is it possible for this to work?

3. Why are we doing this?



v/r

Mike

jcustis
04-16-2009, 05:54 AM
That leads to the real questions we don't seem to want to ask...

1. What are we doing?

2. Is it possible for this to work?

3. Why are we doing this?



v/r

Mike


I think we often don't like to ask the questions because framing them the right way is hard, or permits a sense of weakness to invade...and finally we often do not like the answers that are likely to arise, even if they speak the truth.

ODB
04-16-2009, 06:00 AM
That leads to the real questions we don't seem to want to ask...

1. What are we doing?

2. Is it possible for this to work?

3. Why are we doing this?



v/r

Mike

Unfortunately what works for one will not work for the next, but is there a common ground that can be exploited?

MikeF
04-16-2009, 06:08 AM
the answers to those questions, but I don't.

However, my concern is if they are not asked, then we will continually do the same thing over and over again.

marct
04-16-2009, 01:41 PM
That leads to the real questions we don't seem to want to ask...

1. What are we doing?
2. Is it possible for this to work?
3. Why are we doing this?

v/r
Mike


I think we often don't like to ask the questions because framing them the right way is hard, or permits a sense of weakness to invade...and finally we often do not like the answers that are likely to arise, even if they speak the truth.

Very good points, JC.


the answers to those questions, but I don't.

However, my concern is if they are not asked, then we will continually do the same thing over and over again.

Pulling off of JC's comments, and getting back to the original post, have you noticed that few in the US (or outside it) buy into the narrative offered? Most "answers", if they aren't of an "X=Y" form, tend to be implicit stories, i.e. they have a meaning, moral and story line attached to them. The story about bringing democracy to _____ (fill in the blank) isn't selling well, mainly because there is a lot of comptetition.

Will we do the same thing over and over? Probably... most cultures do.

William F. Owen
04-16-2009, 03:06 PM
I don't think so, and don't agree that better propaganda (via VoA) is the answer. Sometimes, folks see through that for the sham work that it is. Often, the simple fact remains that our ideas and constructs just don't translate over. Add to that the fact that within societies such as the tribal, Arab, and Islamic one we worked so hard to shape and control in Iraq, any message coming from us is going to be ignored and downplayed, and information operations can be a tall order.

Providing accurate facts that get ahead of jihadist information, is sometimes the best that we can do, methinks.

Concur with all. Exactly right in my experience. No evidence you ever produce will convince most (not all) anti-western Arabs that the Israeli's didn't commit 911, and that the British SIS didn't murder Princess Diana.

Try and tell folks who believe in UFOs that they don't exist.

...and I don't think it is the job of any Army to alter beliefs. It's to make the cost of acting on those beliefs too high, for most people to risk.

Ken White
04-16-2009, 03:24 PM
"Why are we doing this" holds the key to the other two.

If there is no good answer to that final question in the eyes of the beholder -- not in the eyes of he, she or they who made the commitment to do 'this' whatever it was -- then the other issues become clouded and people get confused.

For example, attacking Iraq made perfect sense to me on the basis that we had responded poorly or not at all to 22 years of provocations emanating from the ME. Having lived there for a while and thus having some small insights into the prevailing mentality there, I took it for what it was (to me and simplistically here stated); a massive response by the entire Tribe to numerous assaults on the dignity of the Tribe in the form of typical desert pin-prick raids which of themselves are not terribly effective or harmful but which do tend to erode the superior position of the Tribe. Thus, in my view, the attack was worthwhile and made a great deal of sense. I believe that my view was shared by some, particuarly in the ME (who none the less objected because they didn't like the precedent).

A more west-centric view would discard my thought process and opt for the belief that the attack was ill advised. IF the west-centric viewer in question was sorting out TTP or solutions to use in Iraq, the probability is that some bad decisions would be made simply because the 'why' quotient was not known or was misunderstood...

Thus, as Marc says, "most cultures do" make the same mistakes over and over because they do not do a good job of determining why they are doing what they are doing -- or of properly explaining why they are doing what they are doing. Proper understanding by all concerned of that last point is the factor that causes confusion on the answers to the other two questions.

That's why WW II got broad popular support (on both sides), the 'why we are doing this' was quite clear and unambiguous. Most wars since then have been poorly handled in most regards because even the fighters weren't sure why they were doing what they were doing. That, I suspect will get worse before it gets better.

MikeF
04-16-2009, 09:10 PM
We're trained that if we are stuck in restricted terrain and misoriented, then we stop, take a knee, pull out the map and compass, and reorient ourselves...

I don't see why that simple tactic should not be applied to many other issues.

v/r

Mike

Ron Humphrey
04-16-2009, 09:37 PM
We're trained that if we are stuck in restricted terrain and misoriented, then we stop, take a knee, pull out the map and compass, and reorient ourselves...

I don't see why that simple tactic should not be applied to many other issues.

v/r

Mike

The problem is that 24/7 media cycles, international agendas, and internal bickering never take a break so a lot of times you won't see changes until after they have actually already started.

Kinda brings back why doing whats right is a better direction than doing things the "right" way. The former generally remains the same for everyone while the latter tends to be a reflection of prisms.

Ken White
04-16-2009, 10:43 PM
Generals (among others... ) do not like to admit error for obvious reasons in most cases -- to the extent of not making course corrections because that implies an earlier failing -- and you have a recipe for a screw up. Complicate that by putting in another relatively clueless person high up the food chain and it only gets worse. Until someone comes along and unsticks it..

Plenty of historical examples. Some hysterical ones also -- unfortunately, when the occur in conjunction with geopolitics and this trade, they're rarely funny.

jcustis
04-16-2009, 11:05 PM
Some of this goes back to the classic thread most of us posted on concerning the issuance of a single narrative. When you are trying to state the facts only and do so in a manner that outcycles the bad guys, the single narrative is critical.

I absolutely agree that the azimuth check is important beyond words. Simply blundering forward without any deliberation on what is working (and why) dooms not only you to failure down the road, but also others who cover down on your TTPs.

Sometimes we are faced with the single narrative, as addressed in the initial part of this thread, that is so strong that we cannot hope to ever outcycle or overcome its power, emotional draw, and mobilization effect. We can make the cost of acting on beliefs very high, but as the COIN fight drags out, I think history bears out that the phases of the campaign shift and become more convoluted. The masses might not be mobilized to action, but their implicit support for the insurgent remains...almost like the mother who cannot turn her thug son away from the door when he comes knocking, bleeding from a gang war gunfight.

MikeF
04-17-2009, 04:09 PM
The current narrative is best defined by Abu Bakr Naji's The Management of Savagery: The Most Critical Stage through which the Umma will Pass (http://ctc.usma.edu/publications/pdf/Management_of_Savagery.pdf).

It is the evolution of radical Islamic thought deriving from Sayyid Qutb's work long ago in an Egyptian cell. For some fringe movements, it lays out a methodical, rational explanation of the corruption and disenfranchisement and grievances provoked of western democracy and capitalism.

For Americans, this text is difficult to comprehend. Marc- please let me know if I'm off base with this. I believe it is simply how we think and actually process our thoughts.

For example, Americans think and read in terms of left to right, and our thought centers around I. I walked to school today. I visited small wars journal.

For Germans, thought and words are the direct opposite. It is how the world affects them not vice versa.

For Chinese, one-hundred and eleven is translated one, one, one.

I'm not sure how the Arab mind works besides understanding they read right to left, and they tend to think more romantically in verse rather than prose.

I think this insight is the distinction in our lack of communication. I'd enjoy y'alls feedback particularly if I'm off base.

v/r

Mike

Ken White
04-17-2009, 08:56 PM
in response to your post is: Yes, it's complex -- and we have to insure that in an effort to understand, we do not over simplify.

Some time ago in a thread not worth regurgitating; Wilf and 120mm contended that cultural differences were not significant, that people were, in effect, people. While there is a great deal of truth in that belief, as there is in your stated theories, I said then that I think the truth is far more nuanced. Still think that.

I lived and operated on the local economy (everything from where I lived, to all food, people I hung out with and to how I traveled throughout the country and indeed, the entire region -- with a couple of exceptions...) in Iran for a couple of years. That allowed me to arrive at some insights on Middle Eastern thought processes, particularly about military or combat things -- but I absolutely, positively did not become an 'expert.' So be skeptical.

I also have several years each in North and Southeast Asia but not that much time on the local economy. However I did learn a little about operating modes and local cultures. Less time in Europe and Latin America but I was struck in those two by far more similarities than differences. Anyway, I'm well traveled but am emphatically not a know-it-all. So with respect to what I say on the topic of cultural knowledge, be skeptical.

Since then and particularly in the last few years, I've read a great deal written by purported ME experts and I'll tell anyone this: The western 'experts' often get it really wrong for various reasons. Be skeptical.

The Middle Easterners who write in the west (in English) often tell it wrong and rarely tell all they know. Those of the ME in the ME will frequently write or say one thing in English (or any western tongue) and quite another in Arabic or Farsi. Everyone in the ME has an agenda and it will usually be concealed as it supposed to be (Zaher versus Batin). Be skeptical.

I do not believe it is possible for one raised in the west to really understand either Asian or ME thought processes other than superficially -- and I suspect the reverse is true. One can obtain some knowledge and use that knowledge. What I do not think can be done, other than in very few quite rare individuals of all races, is to truly understand another, very different culture.

The entire ME, for example spent many years under the domination of one or another Persian Empires (and the Iraniha recall this, yes, they do...) and thus many mores and attitudes are derived from the Persian ( to include Zaher and Batin and, very importantly, the concept of Class and a pecking order, Ta'arof). Other than Iran, they were later dominated by the Desert Arab tribes and acquired some added ideas (not least of escalating small raids as an economy of force measure). Then they were ruled by the Turks accumulating still more and different ideas (including personal bravery and manipulating reports). That was followed by western intrusion (introducing greed and selfishness as well as geopolitical manipulation) and the City dwellers took over from the rural Tribes (bringing deviousness and haggling to new heights). Oh and don't forget the Greeks and the Romans also puttered around, dropping seed and whatever -- unless one has all those sometimes complimentary (but different) ideas and competing ideas inculcated from birth, one is highly likely to get the cultural milieu wrong if one tries too hard.

Pay attention to the big things and try to get them right while accepting that you're unlikely to ever fully understand the finer things. That usually will be okay. Above all and always -- be skeptical.

CPT Foley
04-17-2009, 10:13 PM
We do need to better understand the Muslim world to win the IO battle. It's less about understanding the enemy than understanding the complex culture that produces the enemy.

We don't need to turn Soldiers into Fouad Ajami, but we need an Officer & NCO Corps committed to learning Arab culture/history & Islam just as well as they learned Air-Land Battle. Lots of our Soldiers are, but it still needs more focus. Soldiers interested in pursuing Middle Eastern Study degrees should get exponentially greater tuition assistance incentives, etc.

There are no guarantees that we will ever gain 'understanding', but we will be better equipped to.

jmm99
04-17-2009, 10:27 PM
I've managed to read through it up to p.107.

Here are some initial thoughts.

Some background on "Abu Bakr Naji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_of_Savagery)" - apparently a covert and clandestine personality. :)

Sayyeed Abdul A'la Maududi, "Jihad in Islam (http://www.muhammadanism.org/Terrorism/jihah_in_islam/jihad_in_islam.pdf)"; Sayyid Qutb, "Milestones (http://web.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/hold/index_2.htm)"; Abdullah Azzam, "Defense of the Muslim Lands (http://www.scribd.com/doc/103147/Defence-of-the-Muslim-Lands)"; Ayman al-Zawahiri, "Knights Under the Prophet's Banner (http://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Words-Translation-Writings/dp/1847288804/ref=pd_sim_b_1#)"; and the AQ statements in the Al Qaeda Reader, are useful background.

Modern Western readers will find several features foreign to modern "Western Constructs" governing political action and military action:

1. Belief in the real presence of God and Satin, with religious principles governing all aspects of the Umma's life and its relationahip to others (a theonomy; last seen in Western polity in the Middle Ages). This construct was not foreign to Westerners of the past, even after the Middle Ages (e.g., the Jesuit Relations); but today, secularism and the concept of church-state separation make it seem quite foreign.

2. Non-acceptance of Western constructs, such as the UN and the GCs. That is not to say that rules similar to the GCs will not be applied in specific situations; but, in other sitauations, rules contrary to the GCs will be applied (I've touched on that elsewhere). These folks have their own JAG officers !

3. Political action and military action are not intersections of two coins, or the flip sides of the same coin; but are the face of the same coin:


(p.85, 86-87 .pdf)
We urge that most of the leaders of the Islamic movement be military leaders or have the ability to fight in the ranks, at the very least. Likewise, we also urge that those leaders work to master political science just as they would work to master military science.
....
The interest in understanding the rules of the political game and the political reality of the enemies and their fellow travelers and then mastering disciplined political action through sharia politics and opposing this reality is not less than the importance of military action, especially if we consider that the moment of gathering the fruit—a moment which is considered the recompense for the sacrifices offered by the mujahids during long decades—is a moment resulting from a political strike and a decisive political decision. Of course, military strikes preceded and even accompanied it; but the final moment and the fate (of the movement) depends on skillful political management. Even the whole course of fighting requires good political managment so that the best results will be achieved. Additionally, there is a very important point: The meaning of every reference in this paragraph to political management is that the political decision issues from the military leader, but the entire political administration or most of it should be made up of warriors from among the assistants of the military leaders and their troops. Those are the people who should take an interest in studying the political dimension. The battle is their battle before it is the battle of others, so one should emphasize the danger of leaving the political decision in the hands of those who do not engage in military battles for any reason.

The concept is that war is too important to be left to the politicians - I'm getting close to being too cute by half; but that is what it boils down to.

A corollary is that any operation involving violence (small, medium or large) is considered part of the military wing - in short, the operators are deemed to be soldiers, regardless of whether we accept or reject that definition.

Naji's construct involves three stages; but they seem to be somewhat different from those of Mao, etc. More of that in the rest of the book, which I have to finish reading.

MikeF
04-18-2009, 12:23 AM
Excellent posts by all. Thanks for the input. Here is a cross-post from Goesh that seems to fit inside this thread. Give it some thought.


By no means am I a scholar or academic despite having a Masters Degree and one (1) year of postgraduate work under my belt. Having never been in Iraq, my opinions are simply that. My involvement in a 3rd world war, Viet Nam and direct living experience with two (2) other groups of 3rd worlders, one of which was Muslim, gives me pause to suggest that "the wicked problem" is by no means unique and distinctive to Iraq. We are collectively the wicked problem and always have been and each generation views their predicament as the most intense and difficult ever. I would suggest that our Western linear thinking heightens our sensitivity, at times to the point of compulsive thinking but this is not to deny that a 'mess' exists in Iraq, or for that matter East Lost Angeles or South side Chicago or rural Appalachia or the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation - talk about disparate culture clashes and wicked problems, they are with us everywhere, vibrant, transgenerational and immune to any fix our logic and rationality can come up with.

After hanging around here for a couple of years or so and being exposed to so many professional and experienced people, I believe COIN's existence centers on four (4) principles: understanding the cultures, respecting the cultures, adopting the cultures and generating meaningful employment for those capable of bearing arms against us. We have failed with the latter two principles hence we remain in a twilight zone of being neither the occupier nor the enabler.

The most successful COIN operatives in our history were the free trappers, the mountain men operating in a 14 year period of time from 1820-1834, the rise and fall of the beaver trade. They went in small numbers hundreds of miles into uknown territory and at times lethal territory without any logistics and Intel. They successfully implemented the 4 COIN principles and survived and it can be argued they even thrived. The analogy applicable for our current dilemma would be if at the time of the invasion, separate squads of grunts dispersed from Basra and walked to Fallujah and up to Kurd land, passing through Baghdad, all done with no communication and no backup, just their packs and rifles. 60% of them would have returned south alive in 14 years using Arabic as often as English, half their attire would be Iraqi style clothing, they would have fathered some children, they would prefer a lot of Iraqi type food over American fare and they would feel a bit of a connection to Allah.

That is the core of the wicked problem, an inability to mingle and adopt. The only real shot we had at adopting was language but how many boots on the ground have basic communication skills and see any merit to speaking Arabic other than using it as a tactical tool? Secondly, and to resort to the mountain man analogy, we haven't traded for beaver pelts with young men capable of bearing arms against us. Sure, jobs have been created; Green Zone type jobs, camp followers abound but not so at the grass roots level. We could have and should have given temporary economic fixes/employment using the principles developed in our own great economic crisis, the Great Depression of the 1930s, namely the Public Works programs and Civilian Conservation Corps. Some people quickly realized back then that idle young men can easily become very discontented. How many unemployed young Iraqi males have been in at least one fire fight or provided services to those thus engaged? We will never know. Very early on, I noted via TV thousands of young Iraqi males standing idle and tens of thousands of tons of rubble - it was work waiting to be done and I presume the rubble still abounds. I'm not suggesting this was/is the solution but it was/is a most viable option for developing relationships and enabling/nurturing. What unemployed family man would have turned down good wages for 8-10-14-20 months of steady labor? 1 truck, 6 men with leather gloves, water, the noon MRE meal and cash at the end of the day and you don't have 6 enemies or potential enemies. If the reader can't envision this, then he is locked into glitches and obstacles and thinking linear while being involved in a circular environment.

Our forces and leadership are to be commended for the understanding and respect of Iraqi cultures that has been fostered and grown with remarkable speed and this at least is keeping us in the ball game. A big tip of the hat to General P. and his crew. I recall in Viet Nam a guy building a house and I inquired as to when he thought he might have it completed. He responded that his sons or grandkids would finish the job and so it is with the world's wicked problems that will require our blood and resources.

MikeF
04-18-2009, 02:22 AM
Concur with all. Exactly right in my experience. No evidence you ever produce will convince most (not all) anti-western Arabs that the Israeli's didn't commit 911, and that the British SIS didn't murder Princess Diana.

Try and tell folks who believe in UFOs that they don't exist.

...and I don't think it is the job of any Army to alter beliefs. It's to make the cost of acting on those beliefs too high, for most people to risk.

With Wilf's valid insight and Goesh's suggestion, where do we go?

Here's how I describe it...

If everything is interconnected and intertwined, all we have to do is connect the dots to comprehend.

Max Weber’s Protestant Ethic and Spirit of Capitalism expresses the crux of American Intervention mirrored in the self-denial conflicted with an internal desire to evangelize. Democracy works for us. Freedom isn’t free. Thus, we must free others with democracy. As good Christians, it is our duty to fix everyone else. One plus one equals three. The ghost of scarlet letters resounds in the western version of Wahabists Shar’iah law, yet we pretend it is not religious. Parables of Pharisees provoked thou screamest loudest as if you know truth. Jesus wept. John joins in joint justification.

In Vietnam, we propped up an artificial government in the hopes that they
would conform. Unfortunately, they only conformed to the corruption. Corrosion of conformity, our opportunity to assist a Vietnam in transition failed when we discarded Ho Chi Minh to salvage our relationship with France.

In Iraq, we tried Maliki.

Today, we strive to save Afghanistan. What are we attempting to save it from? Itself? To what effect? Is Hamid Karzai our friend? We assume that because he dresses well in tailored suits and speaks the Queen’s English that he shares our values, beliefs, and norms. In truth, he may be using us as a comparative advantage to unbalance the balanced opposition much as the Taliban uses al Qaeda.

Twenty years ago, we allied with the Taliban to defeat the Soviets in a marriage of convenience. After the Bear fell, we left. The Taliban did not forget. Kipling echoed for naught, yet we rationalize in the hopes of a natural gas pipeline emerging from the ashes. Phoenix is in Arizona not Kabul. A tendency of good war is oxymoron.

No doubt I weep for the deprived women of Afghanistan, but I must accept that I did not cause their suffering. It existed long before my birth. All I can control is the parameters of my family and closest friends. All I can help are those that first inquire to help themselves. I am neither an isolationist nor anti-war. That reasoning is as foolish as pretending that I am not man. I am simply taking a moment to consider our passion in some form of analysis lest we continue along the foreboding path that shadows and conforms.

Maybe it is time to leave well enough alone.

I am by no means trying to make policy statements. In all actuality, as Schmedlap voices in other threads, I'm sorting through my own personal decision matrix....I would be the first to volunteer for Goesh's expedition....

Ok, with that said, and all the politics aside, what do you think?

There is much validity in Wilf's crushing the enemy as there is in Mortenson's building schools. Where is the intersection point?

All I submit that it is better to discuss the issue rather than remaining stuck. Or rather, as Ken suggest, I'm skeptical of any translation.

Let me know if I've simplified matters too far.

In true detail to other cultures, I'd submit that we must add music...this seems appropriate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhtcaRRngcw

v/r

Mike

Ken White
04-18-2009, 04:38 AM
Or even try to do so.

Viet Nam wasn't that simple. Of course Karzai is using us -- anyone in the west who thinks he is our -- Generic western collective our -- friend is a fool. Afghanistan 20 years ago was also not that simple.

I can't say you've simplified it too far though I do believe that in trying to understand things, many use the technique of trying to identify component bits, an effort that IMO generally leads to excessive fragmentation. Micro views do not solve or lead to solutions for macro problems. I offer the US Army's Tasks, condition and standards approach as an excellent example of how not to do it.

Is the task at issue your definition of that task, the other guys definition or that of a third (or greater) party? Or are there three or more different tasks being worked by many people, some known and some unknown with respect to the same time, location and issue?

Are the conditions you unilaterally impose universal or context dependent; if the latter, who or what determines the context -- you, the enemy, the weather, the terrain all of the preceding. Or does someone or something else determine the condition...

I won't even discuss the vagaries of a standard -- suffice to say that Hamid Karzai in his role does not operate with the understanding that I would were I in that role, thus his standard -- and that of most Afghan males -- of treatment of females differs considerably from mine. Since he is nominally a leader of Afghans, his standard is probably more pragmatically correct than mine would be. That means, whether I like it or not, that in that regard, on that topic, he's a better man for that job than I would be.

That's okay with me. He does not have to like or agree with me nor I with him for us to work together for mutual benefit. Either or both of us should back off if it's determined that the benefits are skewed or not mutual. We do not have to be friends. Probably could not be for many reasons. That's okay as well. It's okay because it has to be, that's reality.

I have spent a fair amount of time trying to export US missionary zeal in various climes and terrains on three continents -- most of those times, the entire operation was fouled up partly due to said zeal overriding common sense, partly because we did not understand the major defining facets of the culture we were operating in, partly as a generic result of inadequate training and education precipitating strategic, operational and really dumb tactical errors -- and once we were there partly because people expended a lot of angst over the minutia of cultural differences that they were never going to really understand -- and did not need to...

Occasionally, though it all worked -- and every time that was the case, it did so because of the right Commander, sheer professional competence of most involved and adequate as opposed to excessive and unnecessary cultural knowledge. Those successful efforts, by the way ran the full spectrum of combat from simple SFA to COIN to HIC.

Adequate cultural knowledge is not simple but it is easy, just recall everything learned in Kindergarten and apply common sense, read a bit, ask sensible questions and learn and heed the big issues -- realizing that one cannot ever answer some questions and does not need to do so.

Long way of answering your question; "With Wilf's valid insight and Goesh's suggestion, where do we go?"

Can't say. People are too different to provide an answer to that question, though it can certainly be asked. There are probably almost as many answers as there are people and that should be acceptable. Ideally, anyway -- because that degree of complexity of the human condition is unlikely to change.

To get to the root of this Thread --I believe it is futile to try to understand an enemy from a different culture; the more different, the more futile. You can learn his operating modes and define his TTP -- and you must do that. If it's assistance to another nation, you must learn the major cultural factors and must heed the local rules with local people. There is absolutely no need to try to get inside their heads and I believe that attempting to do so will only lead to great frustration and due to excessive simplification and / or inability to completely understand all the nuances of very complex human emotions and imperatives can actually cause harm.

MikeF
04-18-2009, 04:45 AM
I'm no expert; I'm just trying to provoke conversation...

Direction and azimuth as I look on the map I suppose....

We've discussed this in private- people are people and you cannot control hearts and minds...

As always, I'll take it to an extreme so everyone else can realize that the sky is not falling down...Lest we presume that our straights are more dire than our parents...


If I had the answers, then we wouldn't have to run around in circles :)

And BTW Ken, well said...Bottom line is that we will employ the policy that our civilian's master.

v/r

Mike

Ken White
04-18-2009, 04:56 AM
As always, I'll take it to an extreme so everyone else can realize that the sky is not falling down...Lest we presume that our straights are more dire than our parents...I'm not sure that everyone else thinks that. In fact, I don't think they do. Nor am I at all sure what that has to do with Understanding the Enemy -- but then I'm old and slow... :o
If I had the answers, then we wouldn't have to run around in circles :)I'm not running around in circles, nor do I think many are -- but then, I could've missed something. I do that a lot. ;)

MikeF
04-18-2009, 05:02 AM
And that's why I had to turn off my TV.:D

Eight years after 9/11, I simply started questioning...I don't have any answers...I'll lead point- just tell me where you want to go.

v/r

Mike

Ken White
04-18-2009, 05:23 AM
that we all do things in our own way and that I'm pretty sure that there's no way to gain the depth of understanding you appear to be seeking, though I certainly hope you succeed. I don't think I've done that very well -- proving yet again that one mans answers may miss another question... :wry:

All I can tell you is that 68 years after 07/12/41 I have far more questions than answers. My defining moment precedes yours by a bit, my wife's younger than I am and hers was the Kennedy assassination. To both of us 9/11 was a minor incident but we understand it was defining for many -- including our daughter who missed earlier traumas. Each generation -- in each nation -- gets its own defining issues. Consider there are people who do not even today know what 9/11 even refers to. Life is complicated that way. :cool:

Having acknowledged I have questions and few answers, I obviously am not one to tell anyone where to go -- but that does remind me of the old saw; "My get up and go has got up and went but I sure can grin when I recall where my get up got up and went."

On that note, I can tell I have nothing worthwhile to contribute here. But then you probably already knew that. :o

MikeF
04-18-2009, 05:33 AM
I just jest with you b/c it's fun and you have a lot of knowledge to share...with that said, others read what we say...

I think Emerson sums it up best

In truth, undoubtedly we have no questions to ask which are unanswerable. We must trust the perfection of the creation so far, as to believe that whatever curiosity the order of things has awakened in our minds, the order of things can satisfy. Every man’s condition is a solution in hieroglyphic to those inquiries he would put. He acts it as life, before he apprehends it as truth. In like manner, nature is already, in its forms and tendencies, describing its own design. Let us interrogate the great apparition that shines so peacefully around us. Let us inquire, to what end is nature?

Ken White
04-18-2009, 05:38 AM
That's it -- You Left Coast folks can stay up a bit longer but us senile old east coast coots are off to the sack. Mo' later... ;)

Take care.

MikeF
04-18-2009, 05:56 AM
Yeah, I know...:cool: What else can I do? The Army decided to send me to school.:p

Coming of Age

When the storms come along, most people run inside the comfort and security of their homes. As a child, I thought like a child. I stepped outside and gazed. I never knew why, but I loved the storms. I simply allowed the cold rain to penetrate my soul. As a man, I think like a man, and I’m starting to understand. The true beauty of nature is contrasted in the messy, wicked, dynamic and hostile nature of the storm. The marvelous breath of God flows along. I cannot run away. I am drawn. I step outside.

When the winds brew over the Monterey Bay, everything unravels. The quiet tranquillest spins out of control. Sands spews across the beach, seagulls fight to maintain their form, sailboats sputter back and forth, and the waves crash along the shore. Zooming deep inside the periphery of the surface is another never-ending chaos. As the wave crests and slams back into the ocean, thousands of sea-creatures, plants, and organisms absorb the shock. It is neither right nor wrong; it is neither good nor bad. While most run to the safety of shelter, I am magnetically drawn to the sea. I have to stand in the chaos and absorb the Messiah’s wonder. It is who I am. In the midst of the turmoil, I am centered. For a moment, everything makes sense.

It is part of the cycle of life- the yen and yang that ebbs and flows.

Sometimes, the storm rages with Allah’s fury; sometimes, tsunamis and hurricanes form ravishing the land and consuming life. Yet, eventually they dissipate. The sun will rise the next morning, the damage assessed, recovery in process, and life moves on.

It is what it is.

I was never supposed to go into the Army. I was early acceptance to the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and Duke considered me to wrestle for them. Although I was merely a product of the North Carolina public education system, I thought that one only went into the Army if one could not get accepted into college. It was the1990’s: the Clinton years, the boom of Microsoft, and the Peace Dividend in the wake of the Cold War. I was supposed to go to study business, join the fraternity, marry the sorority girl, earn an MBA, join the country club, and work my way through the social network of the good ole boy’s club until I was living on the eighteenth hole. This path was all too taken; it was all too calm.

Instead, I moved to the storm. I did not know it at the time, but I was being drawn to Zaganiyah. “I chose the path less taken. It made all the difference” (Frost). This misnomer is common about those that serve. We are not deprived; most of my boys had more degrees than me. We choose to serve, and we have no regrets. We are proud. For a moment, we become the man in the arena.

As with the natural condition of mankind, over time we swell with the pride of nationalism, disdain for our neighbors, or coveting of another’s property. In those times, we make war. From the secret jealousy of Cain to the collective madness of Hitler’s Germany, we murder one or millions. This decision is reached regardless of the state of modernity, industrialization, democracy, or rationalization- it is part of the cycle of life. John Locke’s social contract becomes void.

We enter a state of compartmentalized psychosis, and it can only be resolved by the sword.

It is what it is.

Zaganiyah reached this Break Point. After years of suffering diminished their humanity, the Sunnis of Zaganiyah turned on their brothers, the neighbors, and themselves. They banished some, occupied their homes, stole their belongings, and farmed their farms sending the produce across Iraq and into Jordan for profit. With others, they brought their children to the town square and cheered as the severed heads were displayed. They gave thanks to Allah for their victory. They gloated in their moment.

Once again, I stepped outside into the storm. I would not run away from the sound of a gun. My boys would follow. As with the witch doctors of old, I recognized this diagnosis was fatal. I would bleed it out. It nearly cost me my soul.

MikeF
04-18-2009, 06:09 AM
Katy wrote this...

Round I walk, only questions to bide time
Searching, longing- but for naught
Sweet whispers of her breath call for me
I cannot reach her. Grasping, clutching,
Naught but hope. And so I wait,
Aching, bleeding.
Keep strength and rise sweet moon
Rouse dreams of quieted passion,
Kiss them sweetly and dance
Let not sun send them to bed.
Fly sweet loves, breathe her breath
Be filled with her, she is precious.
I will find her. By chance of quest
I shall learn her secrets. But now
For now, sweet whispers, sing me to sleep,
And rise sweet moon, rouse my dreams.

MikeF
04-18-2009, 06:13 AM
Problems are a fact of life. They are life. So is endurance. We Sheep Dogs just need to train the Sheep a bit... - Ken White

Where do we go from here? With radical acceptance, we can discern where to intervene. Reagan alluded that we were the shining city on a hill. He never suggested that we must convert the rest of the world to suburbs. I submit that it time to take measure of others intentions whether pure or deceptive. We can only help those that first desire.

Ask not what your country, lest you are prepared for what to receive…Ask what you can do. Strive stubborn strife.

In the absence of zero-sum, eventually philosophy and abstract thought must merge towards policy. Once again, attitude is everything. Regardless of intent, desire, or virtue, we cannot help those who refuse to help themselves.

So what can we do? Sometimes the voice inside our head must scream “STOP” so we can refocus. Sometimes we simply have to feel.

Once you face death, once you overcome your fears, then you are free to live.* These are the lessons that I've learned....

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. More is less, less is more. Light in village; heavy in urban. Strykers medium fill the void. I will go in this way and find my own way out stepping outside a box never really in. Shadows subside as storms pass…Walk with me once more…For a moment, give me voice; it takes two to listen.



I apologize for my conjecture...I'm simply trying to connect the dots...

v/r

Mike

MikeF
04-18-2009, 06:43 AM
In his final address, George Washington cautioned us to avoid treaties with other nations and to evade meddling within others internal affairs.

Conversely, as Andrew Jackson secured the office of the President, we evoked Manifest Destiny beginning a process of neutralizing or eradicating the ancient Native American tribes. Later, Roosevelt flaunted the Great White Fleet stirring Japan’s reach. What fire burns in such sweet sorrow that forces the perpetual dilemma?

Recently my friend inquired, “How are you so certain?* How do you know?”* I can neither express nor articulate the intuition flooding through my damaged hippocampus pouring south along the tributaries of my brain stem, channeling through my broken thyroid, and merging into my heart swelling in calm warm springs like the hot baths of Big Sur.* The dam burst.* I just know. It just is.
In a world of uncertainty, chance and circumstance are masked by notions of reason and rationale.* Some things are best left undefined.* All things considered, some mysteries are left only to God.* They just are.* How does a squirrel know to spread the tree’s seed?* How does a rooster know when to crow?*

Does it make me crazy to believe that the dreams of my youth can unfold after all that I’ve done, all that I’ve witnessed, all that corrupted?* Certainly not.* Quite possibly, the crucible of tragedy tempers the coal melding rough and coarse into beauty sparking creative thought. Maybe we simply must let go of expectation, dream with arms wide open, breathe deeply, and embrace the storms.* The storms bring rain, but they also bring rainbows. Maybe one cannot appreciate the rainbow unless he has walked through the storm.
This is how I know. This essay (or maybe it is simple conversation) will explore our collective national thought and attempt to expand towards a refined diplomacy and policy. I will continue to rely on my individual experience as that is my field of expertise. Hopefully, conversation will be generated and new ideas emerge.

MikeF
04-18-2009, 06:46 AM
absolute construct....


On Compassion

In mountaineering school, a Special Forces soldier learns the power of patience. A knuckle dragger would love to run up the mountain, but he will inevitably become exhausted. Instead one learns to traverse back and forth along the route in a seemingly never-ending spiral, a casual pace until the peak is reached. Henceforth, a soldier learns the power of mental toughness over physical shortcomings. We still have so much to learn.

We scaled Mount Manuel. I scanned the Big Sur website to find an appropriate day trip for hiking. As usual, I choose the most difficult trek- eight miles, 3300 feet in elevation, strenuous. My ego naturally ascends my capabilities. Five hundred meters from the summit, my legs were exhausted- stick a fork in me, I was done.

Rob reminded me that at least I can feel the pain.

Rob recently ran the Big Sur marathon, and he was surpassed by a one-legged soldier. Here’s a kid who has had his leg blown off in an IED, and he’s running a marathon. Here we are wallowing in our sorrow. I continued to walk; I did not quit.

As we continued to march, we ran across a Canuck descending the trail. It seemed like a reasonable excuse to stop and chat, and I could rest for a moment. My boy was out of water. I gave him a liter, and we continued along the path. At the crest, we paused for a moment to enjoy the view- it was simply amazing. You could see forever- the Big Sur lighthouse, the kids frolicking in the stream, the campsites, and the $1000 a night resorts. We were in nirvana. However, we did not plan for the mosquitoes. They ate away at our skin.

Reality set in.

We began the march down; we worked our way home.

An hour later, we ran into the Canuck again. He was sitting down resting in the shade. He was brawny- about six feet, a little pudge in the center, and broad shoulders. He was hiking alone. Rob and I approached with broad smiles. As we engaged in seemingly nonchalant conversation, we scanned his pupils and his complexion for signs of heat exhaustion. He was fine. He was simply tired.

After a few minutes, we determined that he was out of water. I gave him the remainder of mine. Without trying to dishonor his ego, we kindly asked if he would like to walk we us. He smiled; his face lit up, and we worked our way down the mountain. All was well.

It felt so good to help someone who was hurting. That is how I grew up. That was how I was taught. Jesus lived amongst those that suffered. As Paul instructed the restless men and women of Corinth, there are but three gifts- faith, hope and love. Yet, I constantly wrestle with the destructiveness and self-serving nature of man-so fickle. I have seen man in his most primal state, and it was not pretty. I am more betwixt than in between. I long for the tenderness of my youth.

Is this irrelevant?

MikeF
04-18-2009, 06:58 AM
Considering the social contract...

Perhaps love is not meant for me
Heartache persist no matter what happens
Maybe I’m incapable of marriage or love
That last a lifetime

Love is neither the absence of sorrow nor grief
Do you think I don’t desire to run from this passion that consumes?
Let it fade,
Restored in faith.

I’m not going anywhere
I will wait

Intuition, passion, and creativity are double-edge
One moment love erupts as the volcano burst
Next, the wave crashes and the sky falls down
Ride it out; you are strong

No doubt I weep; I will not sleep
But rest knowing I am near

The paths have merged, no longer to diverge
Patience is practice in perpetual peace

This to shall pass; the storm shall fade.
Today I help you; tomorrow, you me.
In hopes of better days
I hope you gaze upon the star gazer lilies

At times I doubt, I am but man
Fickle fallen forth, I do not know lest
Frolic to and fro
Ever more I persist

No worries all you have so do is say yes when I ask
Thoughts tempered time to delay
Is not the crux of every man?
You will go in this way and find your own way out.

Thanks for words encourage.
I’m sorry I’m out.
Can’t be helped.
All for tonight.

I know love. No need to talk tonight
Just know I’m here.
I love you with every breath. This I know.

Thank you means a lot.
Sleep refreshingly.
Drearily dreaming in some form of truth
Distraught no more

In the midst of suffering,
I embrace and enjoy you delightfulness
I never thought it could be true
Disregard doubt

MikeF
04-18-2009, 07:01 AM
Tempered thoughts traverse towards truth.
Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold.
Turning and turning evermore.
The Falcon cannot hear the Falconer.

By saving ourselves, by saving each other; we change the world.
Go forth to Ohio, conclude conclusion. I will wait here embracing seclusion.
Be not long, another night goes by, missing you without reply.
I miss you once more awaiting resolution.

To what root does seclusion cling,
Stealing faith the water brings?
Breathe deep and let it flow,
For there is something you must truly know.

Entwined in fear I reach the edge, make bare my feet.
Recall the words you said
With heartbeat paused and all released,
I spread my arms and make real thy feat.

Solidarity let it go,
Seeking fortune times a throw,
Resolution not regard
Searching something much remark

I know not where this path will lead,
Nor from which lofty height I soar,
But I do know every moment,
I love you more and more.

Last shot fired no end realized; no time for fear no time to release.
I’m so tired lay down my gun
Thank god such a fortunate son.
Say a prayer for me American I be.

I think we’re going two different ways with this. You ok?

Yes and yes just let me finish truth no longer to diminish.
Scale the sail I arise to replenish;
Knowing knows what has been, I love you more I must transcend.
No longer to soldier it is ok, seeking once more a bright new day.

I can’t sleep, I can’t eat,
My heart longs the enduring love
But what is left but to breathe your breath, taste your taste,
feel you felt, Hear you hear, see you see me?

Once conflicted, now resolved,
I changed the world because I changed myself
Now nothing left,
but to love and play as it is my right

Play with me perpetually, love with me longingly
Walk with me the rest of days as it is our right
I know I am right seeking God’s wisdom in new light
Everything else fades away

May that love never end ever more we continually pray
Fasting, dancing, rejoicing in bright new day
Humbly now, I must accept the gift of life no longer to reject
He saved me again and again, no longer to control

He is my friend; I am love because he loves
Soaring together towards a life well lived
Her perfection gleams. She requires not plastic beaming natural.
So surreal, is she real or simply dream?

All for naught but hope
In faith of better days
Let us be the next greatest generation
In the capacity that converges continually

Again, I grieve that neither fear nor greed teaches me nothing
Transcend my friends once again
As the streams merge in hope
Only to pervade if you emerge the storm

Re-emerge dear friend once more
Retreating nevermore
As the streams converge
Shelter from the storm

Sorry for the verse, but if you wish to merge cultures, then you must.....

MikeF
04-18-2009, 04:38 PM
I'll clear the floor so others can speak. I wanted to share some of the thoughts that Katy and I worked through in trying to gain some understanding. I think that I'm going to propose my model back in the RFI section for y'all to consider. Not sure if it's right, but it helped me understand.

With that, please continue to contribute towards understanding the enemy. This is the best discussion that I've ever seen.

v/r

Mike

Bill Moore
04-18-2009, 06:18 PM
That leads to the real questions we don't seem to want to ask...

1. What are we doing?

2. Is it possible for this to work?

3. Why are we doing this?

After being lectured and after several discussions with several in our diplomatic community, I now believe that the Dept of State and perhaps the non-kinetic side of our military is more offensive than our air power and infantry could ever be. The diplomats and psychological operatives want to challenge the very essence of a culture's belief system. We're not looking for ways to co-exist acceptably, we want them to embrace our religion of democracy and free markets and embrace the Judeo-Christian value system. We don't simply want to win the war, we want to alter their society. When two extremists go to battle there is very little room for pragmatic compromise.

I think, as do many others, that we can defeat Al Qaeda's extreme ideology relatively easily if we quit attempting to "radically" alter everyone's social norms. We need to focus more on simply providing the promised bread and butter and peace, than preaching the benefits of democracy. We co-existed in relative peace before Al Qaeda surfaced, we can still live with Muslim States that don't embrace democracy, free markets, and Judeo-Christian values in the future. They'll evolve into the modern world at their own pace and in their own way.

I am as much as idealist as anyone else, but there are limits to our power. We need to focus on defeating the threats to our national interests (using realism not idealism). Longer term we continue to provide a model State for the world to look up to. Hopefully our model will provide a goal to other States to strive for, and when a people "desire" help because they are ready to make the step to democracy and more effective economic models, then we reach out to help. We can't force it down the throats of those who are not receptive to these ideas.

Ken White
04-18-2009, 07:23 PM
All true -- I believe that translates as 'know and accept your limitations.'

bluegreencody
04-20-2009, 02:44 AM
Is this where Sageman's suggestion to replace the "war of ideas" with the inspiration of new dreams and hopes for young Muslims comes in?
One of the questions spurred by Sageman I have always thought about is how we apply the lessons from our own experience with the Civil Rights movement to the current situation... I always thought it was an interesting point to make, but he is totally unclear as to what he means by this...
http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/062707Sageman.pdf.

I am especially interested to know how this concept for action can fit within William F. Owen's viewpoint...


If there is merit in understanding an enemy, it is in how to break his will and subvert his arguments, not understanding him, so as you can empathise with the SOB, and live happily ever after.

Until the enemy gives up the policies you find unacceptable, his physical defeat has got to be the primary purpose.

jcustis
04-20-2009, 02:57 AM
We need to focus more on simply providing the promised bread and butter and peace, than preaching the benefits of democracy.

I have totally believed in this, down to my roots and everything that I stand for.

That is why Bush's proclamations of "Democracy for Iraq and victory for the American people" used to rub me so freaking raw.

Everytime we presume to know that the rest of the world wants democracy, and it is put forth in images, broadcasts, executive summaries, talking points, and sound bites, we flip some sort of switch in the minds of the exact folks we are trying to influence.

It's like that classic case of "yeah, you had me going for a little while, until you opened your mouth and started talking." :D

This thread just reminded me that I have not had the opportunity to rant against so many of the idiotic things that I think the previous administration did in the name of democracy. It is Bush's actions that make Obama's seem so strikingly different and unusual in terms of foreign policy. Should have been that course all along, methinks.

MikeF
04-20-2009, 02:58 AM
that you side more with Wilf than Sageman...

Sageman was merely an academic taking a moment to diagnose the data that he had before him...Wilf is a soldier...He puts it all in context...

v/r

Mike

bluegreencody
04-20-2009, 03:16 AM
I just want to know how these two points-of-view can be integrated. They certainly seem contradictory to me at first glance. It seems that a basic lesson of the Civil Rights movement was that sympathy and empathy were major components of change. I am trying to understand how this point of view would have advanced the Civil Rights movement:


I believe it is futile to try to understand an enemy from a different culture; the more different, the more futile... There is absolutely no need to try to get inside their heads and I believe that attempting to do so will only lead to great frustration and due to excessive simplification and / or inability to completely understand all the nuances of very complex human emotions and imperatives can actually cause harm.

MikeF
04-20-2009, 03:26 AM
you'll have to discern for yourself what is truth...

George L. Singleton
04-20-2009, 11:55 AM
I don't think so, and don't agree that better propaganda (via VoA) is the answer. Sometimes, folks see through that for the sham work that it is. Often, the simple fact remains that our ideas and constructs just don't translate over. Add to that the fact that within societies such as the tribal, Arab, and Islamic one we worked so hard to shape and control in Iraq, any message coming from us is going to be ignored and downplayed, and information operations can be a tall order.

Providing accurate facts that get ahead of jihadist information, is sometimes the best that we can do, methinks.

Mike et al who disdain psyops and civil affiars, mere military power is not and will not by itself work. If you defy the reality of tactical, simple psyops used both against the Japanese in the jungles of the Pacific, simple loudspeakers...used both by the Japanese and our Allies...ditto same process via battlefield use of speaker psyops by the North Koreans in Korean War, then you are the get go are missing part of the total mix it took to win, only in the case of WW II where our commitment was nationally absolutely with the draft, etc., and go to the less absolute process of the Korean War where began the "incremental" 50+ year long Cold War mindset and process.

I'd like to resort to carpet bombing with no holds barred in Northern Pakistan and major areas of Afghanistan but it did not work, long term shortly after 911 in Afghanistan, and feeds the enemy's psyops if we tried it again now.

We all agree on one hard fact. Muslims are different and we are not about to change the goofy to us moraes and value system (whatever that means) of the enemy that runs across so many fabled, ficional, as well as factual histories of a tribal,ethnic, cultural level as to be like trying to hold your breath while taking an around the world trip.

William F. Owen
04-20-2009, 01:27 PM
Mike et al who disdain psyops and civil affiars, mere military power is not and will not by itself work. If you defy the reality of tactical, simple psyops used both against the Japanese in the jungles of the Pacific, simple loudspeakers...used both by the Japanese and our Allies...ditto same process via battlefield use of speaker psyops by the North Koreans in Korean War,....

Mere military power? I can think of countless campaigns and operations where PSYOPS and CA played no part, what is more there is not a huge raft of evidence that PSYOPS have ever consistently rewarded it's returns.

If playing cries of hungry baby or tortured animal over loud speakers, breaks will and makes sleep difficult then "hurrah" and we should do it, as long as it costs us very little and gets verifiable results.

MikeF
04-20-2009, 02:31 PM
Mike et al who disdain psyops and civil affiars, mere military power is not and will not by itself work.


First, I don't disdain Psyops. Some of our best work is being done in Africa right now below the radar by small SF and psyops teams. Your statement is simply wrong. Psyops is an enabler not a branch.

We all agree on one hard fact. Muslims are different and we are not about to change the goofy to us moraes and value system (whatever that means) of the enemy that runs across so many fabled, ficional, as well as factual histories of a tribal,ethnic, cultural level as to be like trying to hold your breath while taking an around the world trip.

We is relative. Many feel that there is an American living inside each and every person on this Earth. Maybe there is :D Just ask Paul Wolfowitz or GW.

Here's what Thomas Jefferson said about it...

"War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong;
and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses."
—Thomas Jefferson, 1810

Right now, I would submit that we are going about things in the most inefficient way possible. In the end, it drives down to money. That concerns me. When I look around to where we've had success, often times I see small groups of advisors working under the radar. What they do is cheap, quiet, and it seems to work.

But, I'm just a tanker that ended up jumping out of airplanes. I'm probably just confused. I did bump my head a lot.

v/r

Mike

CPT Foley
04-20-2009, 04:36 PM
Military thinkers are generally very good historians, but they tend to marginalize literature as "just fiction." I think it's also important to study a culture's literature to increase cultural awareness. When I read Fouad Ajami's "Dream Palace of the Arabs" I was struck by his constant references to poets and novelists, e.g., the Syrian exile Adonis (pen name). After reading the poems of Adonis I do feel like I have a better of the alienation of the modern Arab.

Ken White
04-20-2009, 05:07 PM
I just want to know how these two points-of-view can be integrated...Just to be certain the quote from me you provided is taken in context, from that same post of mine there was this:

""most of those times, the entire operation was fouled up partly due to said zeal overriding common sense, partly because we did not understand the major defining facets of the culture we were operating in, partly as a generic result of inadequate training and education precipitating strategic, operational and really dumb tactical errors -- and once we were there partly because people expended a lot of angst over the minutia of cultural differences that they were never going to really understand -- and did not need to...
...
Adequate cultural knowledge is not simple but it is easy, just recall everything learned in Kindergarten and apply common sense, read a bit, ask sensible questions and learn and heed the big issues -- realizing that one cannot ever answer some questions and does not need to do so.""

Just to clarify, all those comments apply to conventional military forces in combat in an alien culture. Note I said conventional -- those comments do NOT apply to forces, military or otherwise, that seek to bond with alien cultures for various reasons. In other words, in the US context, my comment applies to combat units such as Infantry or other Battalions and Cavalry Squadrons reasonably correctly employed for the mission, they do not apply to Special Forces, Civil Affairs, PsyOps and the like.

Most importantly, there is absolutely no correlation of the point of view I expressed with the US Civil rights movement. None.

CPT Foley
04-22-2009, 09:13 PM
Great essay on how we need to improve some of the terminology we use with the Muslim world.

IO Sphere, Fall 06: Choosing Words Carefully: Language to Help Fight Islamic Terrorism (http://www.au.af.mil/info-ops/iosphere/06fall/iosphere_fall06_tunnell.pdf)

jcustis
04-26-2009, 06:22 PM
Military thinkers are generally very good historians, but they tend to marginalize literature as "just fiction." I think it's also important to study a culture's literature to increase cultural awareness. When I read Fouad Ajami's "Dream Palace of the Arabs" I was struck by his constant references to poets and novelists, e.g., the Syrian exile Adonis (pen name). After reading the poems of Adonis I do feel like I have a better of the alienation of the modern Arab.

This is an excellent point, and it is being used all the time in Iraq, say by RCT/BCT cmdrs who sit down with the sheiks and uses stories to convey a particular message they need to get across. One commander told the story of the king who had a magical sword over his head as he sat on his throne, where the sword was there to ensure he did right by his people. He was speaking to a local sheik, and trying to get the point across, subtly, that the sheik would be in store for a little pain if he didn't do right and the sword plummeted down.

We don't do as well when it is a mass-produced message though.

MikeF
04-27-2009, 02:02 AM
This is an excellent point, and it is being used all the time in Iraq, say by RCT/BCT cmdrs who sit down with the sheiks and uses stories to convey a particular message they need to get across. One commander told the story of the king who had a magical sword over his head as he sat on his throne, where the sword was there to ensure he did right by his people. He was speaking to a local sheik, and trying to get the point across, subtly, that the sheik would be in store for a little pain if he didn't do right and the sword plummeted down.

We don't do as well when it is a mass-produced message though.

Well said, Jcustis. And that actually helped me a lot...I suppose that I was hanging out with the terps too long!!! I started turning everything into a metaphor:cool:

v/r

Mike

jcustis
04-27-2009, 02:19 AM
Well said, Jcustis. And that actually helped me a lot...I suppose that I was hanging out with the terps too long!!! I started turning everything into a metaphor:cool:

v/r

Mike


I think I picked up a similar sensitivity around Somali laborers I routinely guarded during my first OCONUS deploy.

MikeF
04-27-2009, 02:31 AM
I think I picked up a similar sensitivity around Somali laborers I routinely guarded during my first OCONUS deploy.

In contrast to bounded rationality....sorry if it makes your brain hurt :)

We routinely disqualify testimony that would plead for extenuation. That is, we are so persuaded of the rightness of our judgement as to invalidate evidence that does not confirm us in it. Nothing that deserves to be called truth could ever be arrived at by such means.
-Marilynne Robinson, The Death of Adam

There are times when you choose to believe something that would normally be considered absolutely irrational. It doesn't mean that it is actually irrational, but it is surely not rational. Perhaps it is suprarationality: reason beyond the normal definitions of fact or data-based logic; something that makes sense only if you can see a bigger picture of reality. Maybe that is where faith fits in. -Wm. Paul Young, The Shack

People who use (the words) I, my and mine have a greater risk of a heart attack," he said. "My conclusion is a more self-centered attitude makes our minds become more narrow and then even a small, tiny problem becomes unbearable. There are thousands, millions of people facing similar problems. Don't take oneself as the center of the world. Think of others, then your health will become better. That's my medicine. -Dalia Lama at Berkeley this weekend.

As a man in the Recon, paratroopers learn tried and true techniques to counter this fog and friction of life. When traversing through restricted terrain, when facing seemingly impassible obstacles, when the dark of night refuses to shed light, we stop, take a knee, listen to our surroundings, whisper amoungst each other lest the enemy hear us, pull out our map and compass, and determine our position. Then, we determine direction and distance to the next waypoint. We get back up and resume walking again.

v/r

Mike