US Soldier captured in Afghanistan

[Schmedlap]

via Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529816,00.html)...


KABUL — Insurgents have captured an American soldier in eastern Afghanistan, the U.S. military said Thursday. Spokeswoman Capt. Elizabeth Mathias said the soldier went missing Tuesday.
"We are using all of our resources to find him and provide for his safe return," Mathias said.


More info at the link...

Is this a first? And what are the prospects of this ending better than similar situations in Iraq?

[Entropy]

Bad news. A lot depends on who captured him.

[davidbfpo]

Based on a BBC comment I suspect the first to be captured: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8130476.stm

I recall reading a linked report on fighting in the Korengal Valley, to Taliban attempts to drag away wounded soldiers.

davidbfpo

[Brandon Friedman]

Wow. The Taliban claim to have him (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6623211.ece):


An American soldier has been captured by insurgents in Afghanistan, the first to be taken prisoner since the US-led invasion of 2001.

The US military refused to confirm details but a commander of the Taleban's hardline Haqqani faction said that his men had captured the soldier in the southeastern Paktika province, which borders Pakistan.

“One of our commanders named Mawlawi Sangin has captured a coalition soldier along with his three Afghan guards in Yousuf Khail district of Paktika province,” the commander, named only Bahram, told the AFP news agency.

[Brandon Friedman]

On CNN, Barbara Starr just suggested the possibility that they'll transport him to Pakistan.

[marct]

So, the question now is what do they do with him?

[IntelTrooper]

Something isn't adding up here... he just happened to wander off the FOB and there happened to be enough Taliban hanging around to capture him and the three guards? This reminds of me when that Marine disappeared and then reappeared in another country in perfect condition...

[Brandon Friedman]

Something isn't adding up here... he just happened to wander off the FOB and there happened to be enough Taliban hanging around to capture him and the three guards? This reminds of me when that Marine disappeared and then reappeared in another country in perfect condition...

Exactly. I can think up a few potential scenarios here of what happened, but they'd all amount to nothing but inappropriate speculation at this point. What I think is clear is that this is not a case of a soldier being captured despite doing everything he was supposed to be doing.

[yamiyugikun]

How does a person tell if a US soldier hasn't been captured and the enemy is bluffing? What does our military do if a soldier really is captured?

[IntelTrooper]

How does a person tell if a US soldier hasn't been captured and the enemy is bluffing? What does our military do if a soldier really is captured?

I imagine he would miss guard mount or some other activity, then his team and squad leader would conduct a search of the base, followed (probably) by 100% accountability formations, followed by the First Sergeant screaming at everyone, then the Company alerting the Battalion, etc. etc.

[Old Eagle]

Even curiouser and curiouser.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/07/02/afghan.missing.soldier/index.html

Did I goof again?

[IntelTrooper]

Even curiouser and curiouser.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/07/02/afghan.missing.soldier/index.html

Did I goof again?

This sounds more plausible... though I think his Afghan friends may be receiving a cut of whatever money is getting passed around.

[Brandon Friedman]

Some of you might have seen this story from CBS yesterday (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/07/16/world/worldwatch/entry5163670.shtml) about how the U.S. is delivering threatening leaflets in Afghanistan to coerce the release of the captured American soldier:


At least two Afghan villages have been blanketed with leaflets warning that if an American soldier kidnapped by the Taliban two weeks ago isn't freed, "you will be targeted."

Villagers near the border of two volatile provinces, Ghazni and Paktika, tell CBS News' Sami Yousafzai that aircraft dropped the leaflets during the past several days.

Military spokeswoman Capt. Elizabeth Mathias confirmed that the leaflets were produced at Bagram Air Base, the primary U.S. installation in Afghanistan, and distributed in the region. She told CBS News correspondent Mandy Clark, however, that they were distributed by hand, not aircraft.

The papers show on one side an image of a soldier with his head bowed so that his face is not visible (above). A message in the local Pashtun language over the image says, "If you do not free the American soldier, then..."

On the other side, an image shows Western troops breaking into a house. The rest of the message is printed across the photo: "...you will be targeted".

The leaflets literally show a soldier kicking in a door, and the significance isn't lost on CBS:


While American military and intelligence services have dropped leaflets on Afghanistan for years, most of them have clearly targeted militants -- frequently carrying photos or caricatures of Taliban leaders.

The new leaflet represents a broader, direct warning to local people in the region where the U.S. soldier was seized.

I think this is a clumsy and ham-handed way to go about doing things that ultimately won't work (and will likely do more harm than good). Earlier today, I offered the reasons why I think that (http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2964). Instead of taking up space re-printing the entire thing here, however, I'm interested to see what everyone else thinks of this technique.

[davidbfpo]

Brandon,

A bizarre tactic IMHO and how are the locals supposed to help the coalition locate the captured soldier? Where is the appeal to the pashtun code of honour and a reward?

davidbfpo

[Ken White]

and moved on. Thought it bad enough that I couldn't bring myself to post it here. Agree it's far more likely to do harm than good.

I'd like to report I'm always shocked :eek: when we do something dumb but I do try to be honest here... :rolleyes: :wry:

David's point is very appropriate; the leaflet sort of makes a mockery of 'knowing the culture.' Hopefully, the PsyOps people and the IO guys were not involved. David was quite polite, calling it "bizarre." True, it is that, however, I'm inclined to stick with my "stupid." :mad:

[George L. Singleton]

Too many knowns. The media needs to shut up and shut down as the did with their yellow journalist NYT captive until he escaped.

We, too, need to be quiet about unknowns.

Let it work it's way out.

[Brandon Friedman]

Too many knowns. The media needs to shut up and shut down as the did with their yellow journalist NYT captive until he escaped.

We, too, need to be quiet about unknowns.

Let it work it's way out.

This is not one of those situations. In context or out of context, this is clearly stupid and dangerous. It's something COL Steele would've done. And I'm glad I know about it.

[Greyhawk]

You have knowledge others lack, and thus higher confidence. No argument - I think that's a fine point with which to close the discussion.

[Brandon Friedman]

You have knowledge others lack, and thus higher confidence. No argument - I think that's a fine point with which to close the discussion.

Not quite sure what you're saying. You eager to close the discussion?

[Greyhawk]

...and hope it is "positive". I wouldn't presume to declare a discussion closed. But the leaflets represent the tip of an iceberg of effort that I personally haven't seen.

I'm confident enough that I don't know enough to discuss because I have been peripherally involved in similar efforts. Sometimes things don't make sense in isolation - even (or especially) when compared to other knowns. I concur with George re: unknowns.

[Greyhawk]

"It's something COL Steele would've done."

Extremely presumptive on many levels and unnecessary to this discussion.

[Brandon Friedman]

I think that's a fine point with which to close the discussion.


I'm confident enough that I don't know enough to discuss


A path best left untraveled

Extremely presumptive on many levels and unnecessary to this discussion.

I don't recall anyone forcing you to jump into this thread, Greyhawk. If you don't like the discussion--or the idea that I brought this topic up--you're certainly free to not participate. But I think it would be better if, rather than you telling me what I've said is "unnecessary" and that I'm on "a path best left untraveled," you simply rebutted my argument about the leaflets with either facts or your own opinions based on personal experience.

I made a comment that compared today's seemingly heavy-handed tactics in two Afghan villages with the known heavy-handed tactics of a man whose "leadership" not only tarnished the reputation of the unit with which I served in both Afghanistan and Iraq, but also set back efforts in working with the Iraqi populace. If you think that's presumptive of me, that's fine. Just explain why. . .instead of making three comments to suggest what I should or shouldn't be talking about.

[davidbfpo]

Since the capture of the US soldier and some of what has happened since is in the public domain I can see no reason why SWC cannot comment. Yes 'unknowns' exist and we have an abundance of experience and outlooks here; alongside - in reserve - robust moderation when required.

Returning to the leaflet drop are they the "tip of the iceberg" or a sign of desperation? Only those closer in will know; we can comment, OK some may call that speculation.

davidbfpo

[Schmedlap]

I made a comment that compared today's seemingly heavy-handed tactics in two Afghan villages with the known heavy-handed tactics of a man whose "leadership" not only tarnished the reputation of the unit with which I served in both Afghanistan and Iraq, but also set back efforts in working with the Iraqi populace. If you think that's presumptive of me, that's fine. Just explain why. . .instead of making three comments to suggest what I should or shouldn't be talking about.
I can only speak for myself, but that does not seem like a wise comparison at this time. We simply don't know the rationale behind this decision. When this episode is over and we have more information available, then we can determine whether or not this was too heavy-handed. "Heavy" is relative to the situation. I have endured the snail-like pace of developing PSYOP products. Most requests, in my experience, were turned down or were so watered down as to be pointless because of some overly cautious TA analysis.

Drawing a comparison to Steele is to suggest recklessness or incompetence. It surprises me that products like this were fielded. But having some familiarity with how the development process works, I am very hesitant to assume that this was just some reckless or poorly thought-out decision. Of course, this is the Army, so there is always the possibility that your hunch is correct. But it seems a bit early and information a bit scarce to start making such comparisons.

But aside from that narrow point, discussion is good. I concur with david - it's already in the public domain.

[Greyhawk]

I was trying to be brief in hopes of not being misunderstood, and I failed quite completely. Schmedlap's longer, thoughtful response captures what I was attempting to say. (If he gleaned any of that from what I said, then perhaps I'm only a partial failure.:o)

I was entirely wrong to say anything approaching "close the discussion". That was ill considered on my part. I further failed at attempting to fully clarify that in a follow up comment - bad on me again. Apologies to all in that regard.

Brandon: I'm also saying that based on all we know, you're right.

[Kevin23]

Even though there is a good likelihood this soldier has been captured.

How sure are we that he really has been picked up by the Taliban or other hostiles out there. Because I remember hearing on the news that a Taliban commander in the area he was captured was threatening to kill this soldier was believed by intel not to even be in possession of the man. Even though this may sound kind of silly but does anyone think the soldier after having this breakdown could be in hiding out there and just afraid to return back to American forces or Coalition forces despite the unlikelihood of that?

[Ken White]

Even though there is a good likelihood this soldier has been captured...How sure are we that he really has been picked up by the Taliban or other hostiles out there... could be in hiding out there and just afraid to return back to American forces or Coalition forces despite the unlikelihood of that?All possible. We'll see, it'll all come out eventually. Based on what little we do know, the leaflets seem heavy handed and ill advised but even that is perhaps premature.

First news reports are usually pretty poor; generally best to wait until you get three or four reports, hopefully conflicting, then you can sort them out and make up your mind -- and then you'll have a better chance of being right. Even then it's still a just chance... :wry:

[Kevin23]

All possible. We'll see, it'll all come out eventually. Based on what little we do know, the leaflets seem heavy handed and ill advised but even that is perhaps premature.

First news reports are usually pretty poor; generally best to wait until you get three or four reports, hopefully conflicting, then you can sort them out and make up your mind -- and then you'll have a better chance of being right. Even then it's still a just chance... :wry:

Also to add to this point I find it odd no other factions other then this Taliban Commander have come forward to claim this guy. Having an American or other Coalition soldier as a hostage is some valuable regardless of any negotiation value.

[IntelTrooper]

Also to add to this point I find it odd no other factions other then this Taliban Commander have come forward to claim this guy. Having an American or other Coalition soldier as a hostage is some valuable regardless of any negotiation value.
My friends in the Tora Bora Front, LET, et al. are too smart to do something like that. It's one thing to make claims about the number of US, ANA, humvees, etc. destroyed in another province. It's hard to confirm or deny such a thing. But in the end, only one group has this soldier, if any at all. The situation is high-profile enough that when the truth comes out, some people could look very silly and stand to lose a lot of credibility. The IO campaign for most of these groups is just too sophisticated to do something clumsy like that.

[Ron Humphrey]

here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533808,00.html)

[IntelTrooper]

here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533808,00.html)
Hmmn... captured after getting left behind on a patrol is certainly different from wandering off base... I wonder which account is more accurate.

[Brandon Friedman]

Drawing a comparison to Steele is to suggest recklessness or incompetence. It surprises me that products like this were fielded. But having some familiarity with how the development process works, I am very hesitant to assume that this was just some reckless or poorly thought-out decision. Of course, this is the Army, so there is always the possibility that your hunch is correct. But it seems a bit early and information a bit scarce to start making such comparisons.

Yes, I’m speculating. I’m not there on the ground, so there’s obviously a lot I/we don’t know. And like I said, I’d love to be proved wrong. I just can’t think of a context or scenario where threatening the civilian population could end well. Even if it gets positive results initially (like, say, we get the soldier back), it’ll still likely end with Jed carrying his brother out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRjMzLV7mb8) past a disillusioned Cuban counterinsurgent.

It seems to me that most everyone agrees that, as presented, this is a bad idea. And I just stopped being uncritical of the leadership in these types of situations after witnessing the abysmal lack of COIN prowess at times by individuals like Odierno (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/23/AR2006072300495.html), Steele (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/21/world/middleeast/21abuse.html?pagewanted=print), and Craddock (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/31/world/asia/31nato.html?_r=1) (not to mention in places like Abu Ghraib (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse)).


I was trying to be brief in hopes of not being misunderstood. . . .

No worries, man.


here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533808,00.html)

And ABC News has now posted the video. They’re a media organization, so competition presumably dictates that they must post this video if they have it. But I probably wouldn’t have helped the Taliban spread propaganda by posting it if it were up to me.

[Ken White]

... COIN prowess..I'm always interested in learning new things...

[George L. Singleton]

And ABC News has now posted the video. They’re a media organization, so competition presumably dictates that they must post this video if they have it. But I probably wouldn’t have helped the Taliban spread propaganda by posting it if it were up to me.

Mr. Friedman, having been in SW Asia uniquely years ago, lack of widespread public education uninfected by religious mumbo jumbo leaves millions still desperate illiterate and subject to the broadcast media, radio and TV, as their sole source of information.

Hence my push started in April 2008 to improve our use of Voice of America, radio and TV, in conjunction with improved psyops and civil affairs on the ground by our military remains my humble but sharpest focus of how to overcome misinformation which is 50% of our enemy in the war on terrorism. The other 50% of course being the literaly bloody enemy, whose motives and understanding of "why they fight" are what I want VOA, psyops, and civil affiars to address 24/7.

[George L. Singleton]

We now need VOA TV and radio broadcasts "advertsing" to return for a reward the kidnapped PFC currently being held hostage.

All broadcasts need to be in the native dialects common on both sides of the Durland Line. Ads offering rewards and quoting the Qu'ran about peace and about helping other "People of the Book", ie, as we are all literally descendants of Abraham [as described both in our Holy Bible and in the Qu'ran] I believe this would work better than leaflets which many native illiterates cannot read, even though they can look at a cheap picture on a leaflet.

We are dealing here with terrorist "rug merchants" treating a soldier as a trading property of value.

Kidnapped, he apparently has been sold by a lower level Taliban outfit to a higher level Taliban outfit who want to now use him as a bargaining chip to gain release of other Taliban prisoners and on the side also want money, ie, to be "paid off."

Taliban alleged remarks for the whole war to stop over one PFC's kidnapping are off the wall and most likely not the result these rug merchants realistically hope for...which is the release of many Taliban prisoners and being literally paid off in money, too.

The less said about this whole fiasco by the media the better as I have said before. Right now the Talaiban are getting millions of dollars worth of free public relations, albeit negative public relations...the old political addage here in the South regarding politicians, which the Taliban are a sort of, is "spell my name in your newspaper correctly no matter what you say about me!"

A "hostage" is not a prisoner of war.

[davidbfpo]

The last time an American service member went missing in Afghanistan was in June, when Pfc. Bowe R. Bergdahl was captured after straying from a US base near the eastern border with Pakistan. On July 18, Taliban insurgents released a video of the 23-year-old soldier from Idaho. Bergdahl has not been found.

From:http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-afghanistan-missing7-2009nov07,0,1106216.story

Let's hope he has not been forgotten and this is an appropriate update as Rememberance Sunday is tomorrow (US equivalent: Veterans Day?).

davidbfpo

[carl]

Here is a link to NYT reporter David Rohde's account of his 7 month captivity in the hands of the Taliban. I don't know if it has been posted on SWJ before but it might be relevant to this discussion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/world/asia/18hostage.html

[jmm99]

= the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, 1918, when the guns fell silent on the Western Front in the War to End All Wars. Short Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Day).

Best

Mike

[davidbfpo]

A short video clip of the prisoner in uniform: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8430431.stm

Surprisingly short summary article; cannot fault the timing for Info Warfare.

[davidbfpo]

The first, public news since Xmas 2009:
The Taliban released a video Wednesday of a man identified as an American soldier captured in Afghanistan last June, showing him pleading for his freedom and to be returned home.
In the video, Pfc. Bowe Bergdahl says he wants to return to his family in Idaho and that the war in Afghanistan is not worth the number of lives that have been lost or wasted in prison. It is the first he has been seen since the Taliban released a video of him on Christmas Day.

The link does not have the video:http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gyu1qy-NrWNKbuwyEXg5D463YYDgD9EUHSMG0

The video is on:http://news.google.com/news?hl=en-US&ned=&q=Bowe+Bergdahl

[davidbfpo]

Sgt Bowe Bergdahl, a US soldier being held prisoner by the Taliban after disappearing from his base had told his parents he was disgusted with the Afghan war and ashamed to be American.

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9319215/US-soldier-Bowe-Bergdahl-was-disgusted-with-Afghan-war-and-ashamed-to-be-American.html

[Wyatt]

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9319215/US-soldier-Bowe-Bergdahl-was-disgusted-with-Afghan-war-and-ashamed-to-be-American.html

From the reports of him walking off base, and his subsequent statements, he's likely a defector.

[Bill Moore]

Let's not be too quick to pass judgment, it was clear he was frustrated with the lack of discipline and what he perceived to poor discipline in his unit, so he may well have deserted, but it does not appear he defected. Both are crimes, but one is much more serious than the other.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/americas-last-prisoner-of-war-20120607?page=5


The next morning, more than 24 hours after Bowe had vanished, U.S. intelligence intercepted a conversation between two Taliban fighters:

"I SWEAR THAT I HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING YET. WHAT HAPPENED. IS THAT TRUE THAT THEY CAPTURED AN AMERICAN GUY?"

"YES THEY DID. HE IS ALIVE. THERE IS NO WHERE HE CAN GO (LOL)" "IS HE STILL ALIVE?"

"YES HE IS ALIVE. BUT I DONT HAVE THE WHOLE STORY. DONT KNOW IF THEY WERE FIGHTING. ALL I KNOW IF THEY WERE FIGHTING. ALL I KNOW THAT THEY CAPTURE HIM ALIVE AND THEY ARE WITH HIM RIGHT NOW."

Then another intercept was picked up:

"CUT THE HEAD OFF"

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/06/u-s-prisoner-bowe-bergdahl-s-failed-attempt-to-escape-from-taliban.html


In exclusive interviews, Afghan insurgents reveal how Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, imprisoned by the Taliban in Pakistan since 2009, made a bold bid for freedom—but was quickly recaptured.

A lot more details in the article, and if accurate there was a serious failure in leadership in the unit. Most reports indicate SGT Bowe was very hard core and dedicated, so I suspect his expectations of his leaders and peers were unrealistic and when reality didn't fit his expectations he quit believing.

[davidbfpo]

BBC News has just reported that the Taliban have offered to swap five Guantanamo prisoners for the US soldier. All part of the diplomatic ploys under-way:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-22980892

[davidbfpo]

NYT story:
A video of an American soldier held captive by Afghan insurgents for the past four and a half years is in the possession of the United States government, and officials said Wednesday that it showed the soldier, Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, alive but in declining health.

Not much else, although he is alive somewhere.

Link:http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/16/world/asia/gi-long-held-by-afghan-militants-is-shown-alive-in-video.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_ee_20140116&_r=0

[davidbfpo]

America's only prisoner of war has been freed in Afghanistan after the US agreed to release five Taliban fighters held at Guantnamo Bay. President Barack Obama announced that Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl had been released nearly five years after he was captured near the Pakistani border.



(Later) The five released detainees - Mohammad Fazl, Mullah Norullah Noori, Mohammed Nabi, Khairullah Khairkhwa and Abdul Haq Wasiq - were the most senior Afghan fighters held at Guantnamo Bay.


Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10867353/Americas-only-prisoner-of-war-released-in-exchange-for-Taliban-fighters.html

[AmericanPride]

The domestic blow-back is expected, but I'm interested in the political and ethical questions it raises about negotiating with 'the enemy' during an armed conflict, specifically when that enemy is not a recognized state belligerent and is a party to unlawful forms of warfare. It appears that (1) our legal norms can potentially obstruct the formulation of political solutions (in this case, a negotiation), and (2) that the circumstances of the soldier's capture is less important than the perceived gain in his exchange. Assuming that the exchange facilitates further dialogue with the aim of stabilizing the inevitable transition with the American withdrawal by the end of 2015, I think Bergdahl's conduct, while of great concern in itself, is irrelevant within the context of the conflict as a whole. Bottom line: does the exchange provide the US with a favorable political opening?

On a related note - the act of negotiation itself does not incentivize further activity. The gains made by the process of negotiation can potentially incentivize repeated behavior. US soldiers are already valuable POWs so I fail to see how this exchange increases that risk, especially given the factors that have made the Iraq and Afghanistan wars so low in POWs in the first place. If anything, the exchange indicates that the Taliban is a rational organization capable of responding to incentives.

[JMA]

It is interesting as a non-American to observe this unfolding matter.

My gut feeling is that Bergdahl is a side issue to the release of the 5 Taliban linked to the 'safe' withdrawal of ISAF men and equipment up to the end of the year.

Interesting to observe the position of this administration in respect of the much vaunted policy of never negotiating with terrorists.

[AmericanPride]

JMA,

It's not so much a 'policy' as it is a 'mantra' and of course a domestic political weapon. But the US has negotiated with 'terroists' before (even sold them weapons in exchange for hostages!) so it's not without precedent. And it's it without precedent in Western policy - IRA, ETA, PLO, etc. Of course, the rhetoric makes the policy confusing (like the non-coup coup in Egypt).

[jcustis]

On a related note - the act of negotiation itself does not incentivize further activity. The gains made by the process of negotiation can potentially incentivize repeated behavior. US soldiers are already valuable POWs so I fail to see how this exchange increases that risk, especially given the factors that have made the Iraq and Afghanistan wars so low in POWs in the first place. If anything, the exchange indicates that the Taliban is a rational organization capable of responding to incentives.

Concur. I haven't been able to get my head wrapped around how some could calculate that this in any way increases the risk to troops in the field.

Then again, the folks bumping their gums about it likely have 0% time spent in the field in the first place. Mix that in with partisanship and the howls are predictable.

[carl]

It seems to me it was just a poor deal, for 5 high guys we got back one, at best very confused, private; at worst one deserter/possible defector.

[WGEwald]

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/code_of_conduct/the-code-of-conduct.shtml




II

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

[Ray]

It seems to me it was just a poor deal, for 5 high guys we got back one, at best very confused, private; at worst one deserter/possible defector.

Looks like a poor deal, but maybe there is a silver lining too?

Since this chap maybe a indoctrinated AQ sympathiser (or else why did he 'walk off'), and so, maybe during interrogation he will be a gold mine of information about the ways of the AQ/ Taliban.

[AmericanPride]

Ray,

One of the things the U.S. Army is poor at doing IMO is understanding group dynamics, especially when someone does something seemingly irrational like walk off a FOB. And this is ironic, I think, given our emphasis on leadership, et. al. We have a serious problem of groupthink and we have an ideological predisposition to focus almost exclusively on individual agency to the exclusion of structural incentives and restraints. Apparently Bergdahl's comrades were aware of his odd behavior prior to the deployment - why didn't they or the leadership do something about it? I've also read that the unit had some problems of its own. Combine that with the isolation of being deployed, and then further ostracized within your own unit, and it's not surprising that he did something 'irrational'. He probably regretted it from the moment he was captured. That's just speculation on my part.

[Ray]

Ray,

One of the things the U.S. Army is poor at doing IMO is understanding group dynamics, especially when someone does something seemingly irrational like walk off a FOB. And this is ironic, I think, given our emphasis on leadership, et. al. We have a serious problem of groupthink and we have an ideological predisposition to focus almost exclusively on individual agency to the exclusion of structural incentives and restraints. Apparently Bergdahl's comrades were aware of his odd behavior prior to the deployment - why didn't they or the leadership do something about it? I've also read that the unit had some problems of its own. Combine that with the isolation of being deployed, and then further ostracized within your own unit, and it's not surprising that he did something 'irrational'. He probably regretted it from the moment he was captured. That's just speculation on my part.

The bold part reminds of the film 'A Few Good Men'.

[JMA]

Not sure why this thread has almost died in terms of the essential matter of how Bergdahl fell into the hands of the Taliban?

Full Testimony of SPC. Cody Full (http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4501241/full-testimony-spc-cody-full)

I am much less interested in the swap than with the preliminaries.

[JMA]

I dunno... this is an exceptional case surely? Bergdahl is but one soldier out of how many hundred thousand soldiers who rotated through Afghanistan over the years.


Ray,

One of the things the U.S. Army is poor at doing IMO is understanding group dynamics, especially when someone does something seemingly irrational like walk off a FOB. And this is ironic, I think, given our emphasis on leadership, et. al. We have a serious problem of groupthink and we have an ideological predisposition to focus almost exclusively on individual agency to the exclusion of structural incentives and restraints. Apparently Bergdahl's comrades were aware of his odd behavior prior to the deployment - why didn't they or the leadership do something about it? I've also read that the unit had some problems of its own. Combine that with the isolation of being deployed, and then further ostracized within your own unit, and it's not surprising that he did something 'irrational'. He probably regretted it from the moment he was captured. That's just speculation on my part.

[AmericanPride]

I dunno... this is an exceptional case surely? Bergdahl is but one soldier out of how many hundred thousand soldiers who rotated through Afghanistan over the years.

It's exceptional insofar he was captured by the Taliban. But he wasn't the only one to have ever walked off a FOB or attempted to do so. I don't know the full numbers but I count at least four between Iraq and Afghanstan. I think what's unexceptional is the stress, poor discipline, and 'breaking point' - most soldiers who reach this point seem to prefer to kill themselves or abuse a spouse rather than hike the Hindu Kush. One soldier notably stole thousands of digital documents. When someone is away from the security of home, ostracized by their comrades in close quarters, and disillusioned by their role in what's going on, unpredictable things happen.

I'm in no way excusing Bergdahl's behavior but I firmly think that the causes are more complex than the competing media narratives of his alleged Taliban sympathies or his mental state.

[WGEwald]

...he wasn't the only one to have ever walked off a FOB or attempted to do so. I don't know the full numbers but I count at least four between Iraq and Afghanstan...One soldier notably stole thousands of digital documents. When someone is away from the security of home, ostracized by their comrades in close quarters, and disillusioned by their role in what's going on, unpredictable things happen.



Are you referring to Bradley Manning?

[AmericanPride]

Are you referring to Bradley Manning?

Yes. He was reportedly an odd-ball in his own unit. His unit had lax security oversight. And according to his account, he was disillusioned with the war. In these conditions, unpredictable things happen. Why does one person steal documents in the hopes of exposing his perception of the truth, another walk of a FOB, another kill himself or kill others? Whatever outlet these individuals choose, many of the structural problems and enablers remain the same because they are frequently left unaddressed.

[JMA]

The Bergdahl case is obviously too hot for the US military to handle. Can it be anticipated to fizzle out like the Garwood matter back then?


I'm in no way excusing Bergdahl's behavior but I firmly think that the causes are more complex than the competing media narratives of his alleged Taliban sympathies or his mental state.

[carl]

JMA:

Yeah it will fizzle out. The Army will follow the standard DC inside the beltway drill. They will withhold information of all types and keep the guy from talking for months and months and maybe years. Then they will let out only what they have to and only a tiny bit at a time. The idea is it will be perceived as old news by the time it all gets out and nobody will pay attention.

The drill works very well.

[JMA]

JMA:

Yeah it will fizzle out. The Army will follow the standard DC inside the beltway drill. They will withhold information of all types and keep the guy from talking for months and months and maybe years. Then they will let out only what they have to and only a tiny bit at a time. The idea is it will be perceived as old news by the time it all gets out and nobody will pay attention.

The drill works very well.

And you guys - the voters - have been conditioned to just accept this stuff without even a whimper?

Perhaps there is more than a grain of truth in James Bovard's book: Attention Deficit Democracy (http://www.amazon.com/Attention-Deficit-Democracy-James-Bovard/dp/140397666X)


Delusions about democracy are subverting peace and freedom. The American system of government is collapsing thanks to ignorant citizens, lying politicians, and a government leashed neither by law nor Constitution. While presidents and pundits harp on democracy’s inevitable spread around the world, it is perishing at home.

[carl]

And you guys - the voters - have been conditioned to just accept this stuff without even a whimper?

Perhaps there is more than a grain of truth in James Bovard's book: Attention Deficit Democracy (http://www.amazon.com/Attention-Deficit-Democracy-James-Bovard/dp/140397666X)

Again I can't find any strong argument to make against what you say. It is happening.

I wonder if the system that developed during a time when the printed word was the only means of mass communication, and entertainment was only to be found by being an eyeballs on spectator, can survive television, both broadcast and cable fed. In the old days people were forced to read about politics and thereby forced to think some about it. Politics was entertainment to a large extent too because there weren't many other sources of diversion. Nowadays you can lose yourself in diverting media and never come out. The old system based upon the printed word almost forced the average guy to pay attention, the new electronic age allows the average man to be frivolous and opens the door that much wider to the schemers.

We may have to make adjustments, say prohibiting any political advertisement on tv or radio. Prohibit any tv news coverage of political races. Things like that are just off the top of my head ideas but we must do something to get the average guy back into the game.

[WGEwald]

Yes. [Manning] was reportedly an odd-ball in his own unit. His unit had lax security oversight. And according to his account, he was disillusioned with the war. In these conditions, unpredictable things happen. Why does one person steal documents in the hopes of exposing his perception of the truth, another walk of a FOB, another kill himself or kill others? Whatever outlet these individuals choose, many of the structural problems and enablers remain the same because they are frequently left unaddressed.

My point would be that Manning did not leave his duty station, did he? My belief is he had too much time on his hands (ASAS :rolleyes:) and access which he did not need. His security manager must have been asleep. His immediate supervisor was disciplined, I believe. His case is quite distinct from Bergdahl, I think.

[WGEwald]

The bold part reminds of the film 'A Few Good Men'.


I would not be surprised if Hollywood is working on "The Bowe Bergdahl Story" with Sean Penn cast as "Taliban Bob" Bergdahl.

[WGEwald]

Army Clears Bergdahl of Any Misconduct During Captivity

http://www.thewire.com/national/2014/06/army-clears-bergdahl-of-any-misconduct-during-captivity/373485/

[carl]

JMA:

Yeah it will fizzle out. The Army will follow the standard DC inside the beltway drill. They will withhold information of all types and keep the guy from talking for months and months and maybe years. Then they will let out only what they have to and only a tiny bit at a time. The idea is it will be perceived as old news by the time it all gets out and nobody will pay attention.

The drill works very well.


Army Clears Bergdahl of Any Misconduct During Captivity

http://www.thewire.com/national/2014/06/army-clears-bergdahl-of-any-misconduct-during-captivity/373485/

Yep, the drill is in full swing and being carried out in plain view. The Army just let out the first tiny bit of info, that he is cleared of misconduct "during captivity". We still haven't heard from him, even his parents haven't heard from him so he is basically being held incommunicado.

If only our big military could fight as well as it can spin.

[Wyatt]

Hopefully he gets charged with desertion. I doubt there were many similarities between himself and Col Rowe during his time as a pow

[jcustis]

Perhaps a reminder is in order.

Bergdahl is a grown adult male. He isn't a dependent of his parents. That stopped years ago when he raised his right hand and stated an oath.

Bergdahl's parents are his next of kin and really nothing more, in the strict sense of many things military, like the UCMJ, dependency regulations, etc.

It for sure can be easy to look at this and go, "Wow, why haven't his parents been linked up with him...why isn't he home...why...?"

The US military does its best to support the next of kin in cases of injury and death, and yes, POW cases. Bergdahl's case is not black and white, and so until the Army gets its run at Bergdahl to determine what happened, his parents can damn wait.

[JMA]

Another blast from the past...

Marine who disappeared in Iraq in 2004 is back in US custody (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/29/marine-who-disappeared-in-iraq-in-2004-is-back-in-us-custody/)


A Marine who was declared a deserter nearly 10 years ago after disappearing in Iraq and then returning to the U.S. claiming he had been kidnapped, only to disappear again, is back in U.S. custody, officials said Sunday.

[carl]

Perhaps a reminder is in order.

Bergdahl is a grown adult male. He isn't a dependent of his parents. That stopped years ago when he raised his right hand and stated an oath.

Bergdahl's parents are his next of kin and really nothing more, in the strict sense of many things military, like the UCMJ, dependency regulations, etc.

It for sure can be easy to look at this and go, "Wow, why haven't his parents been linked up with him...why isn't he home...why...?"

The US military does its best to support the next of kin in cases of injury and death, and yes, POW cases. Bergdahl's case is not black and white, and so until the Army gets its run at Bergdahl to determine what happened, his parents can damn wait.

That could all be true, but in my view it falls into the category of leaning over backwards, carnival sideshow backwards, to find a not suspicious explanation to what has gone on. It just isn't normal that a 25 year old gone from home for 5 years under very stressful circumstances doesn't want to contact his relations. And given our media culture, it just isn't normal that he has spoken to nobody outside the Army at all as far as I know. So given all this, and given the Tillman and Lynch cases, I figure the Army is playing games.

[WGEwald]

http://nypost.com/2014/07/10/captivity-pic-of-sgt-bergdahl-and-taliban-commander-surfaces/


Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, who was held captive by the Taliban for nearly five years, is seen in a new image mugging for a picture with a jolly jihadi who #has his arm resting casually on Bergdahl’s shoulder.