H&K G3 market in East Africa

[M-A Lagrange]

Hello,

H&K G3, the former basic german army assault riffle is more and more popular in East Africa. At least from what I see on the field. Few years ago it was not the case.
Now comes my question:
Most of the combattants in South Sudan have AK47. Former SAF (Sudan Armed Forces, Khartoum army) were having G3 guns. So now, many former SAF supporters or people living close to past SAF opositions are having G3.
But from what I understood, G3 and AK47 ammunitions are not compatibles.
AK47 use 762x39 bullets and G3 762x51 bullets.
So my question is double:
1) Is it possible to use AK47 ammunitions with G3? If yes or no, why?
2) If no, that would mean you need a separate supply source for G3 ammunitions. As I am in South Sudan, where those ammunitions could come from.
For info, I already have with me the Small Arms Survey reports and othyer NGO reports on South Sudan weapons smuggling. But they do not cover the most recent years (2007-2010).

Thanks for your support.

M-A

[Fuchs]

AK-47 is 7.62x39 while G3 is 7.62x51 (7.62NATO). It doesn't work at all.

The G3's mechanical system is a roller-locked design that requires great calculations and design tuning to function. As far as I know even out-of-spec ammunition can be a major problem.

The Chinese don't sell 7.62NATO ammo as far as I know, but ammo factories for both calibres exist in several Third World countries. They're two of the three most wide-spread military small arms calibres and it should be no problem to get that kind of ammo.

I've seen photos of African militias mixing AK, RPK, RPG, G3 and FAL - and rarely if ever more than one spare magazine/rocket per man. FAL uses same ammo as G3.

[Kiwigrunt]

To answer your ‘why’ [the two are not interchangeable], the bullets/projectiles may be of equal diameter, but the shell cases are not. They differ in shape all together. So the case of one will not fit into the breach of the other. Even if the length was the only difference, it still would not work because the neck of the case needs to fit snugly into the breach while the back/rim needs to be held by the bolt and struck by the firing pin. So an exact fit is crucial. The left two rounds are 7.62 x 51 and 7.62 x 39.

[Stan]

MA,
We purchase Czech-made 7.62mm ball surplus ammo. These rounds were originally intended for the 308 market and for the price, a good bargain.

150 grain bullets run about 350.00 USD for 1,000 rounds. Honestly, some of the most economical ammo comes from MIDUSA (www.midwayusa.com)

We're also informed that the Polish ammo for their UKM-2000 is standard NATO 7.62.

Interesting... H&K tried making weapons for the 7.62x39 market as well as the USA SAW. Both failed. One would think the Chinese have already got the NATO 7.62 product in Africa :cool:

[MattM]

KiwiGrunt,

Is that a 6.5 Grendel cartridge in your photo?

-- Matt

[Kiwigrunt]

KiwiGrunt,

Is that a 6.5 Grendel cartridge in your photo?

-- Matt

Yes, don't she look purdy?

[M-A Lagrange]

Thanks Fuchs and Kiwigrunt for the technical details. I had the gut feeling this would be the case but you just gave me the right data.

Stan, when you say China would probably be already producing 7.62 NATO in Africa, do you have any idea of where?

What I see is that this could come from Khartoum, Eritrea, Somalia; all through Ethiopia or Northern Kenya. But that would mean the production plan would be located in one of those places.
Do you think it could be the case?

One of my colleague said that G3 where also used in Irak during Sadam times. Most of SAF guys were trained there. It would make sense that some of those ammunitions could come from Irak during the last years (at least during 2003 to 2006). Do you think this could be the case?

[sgmgrumpy]

M-A Lagrange Have you seen this report dated 2009?


In its October 2009 report, the UN Panel of Experts noted that ‘an increasing proportion of 12.7 mm, 7.62 x 39 mm and 7.62 x 54 mm ammunition, as well as 4 x 4 vehicles, in use by all parties to the conflict in Darfur was produced postembargo’, indicating increasing embargo violations.34 According to the Panel of Experts, the violators include both Darfurian and Darfur-based Chadian groups, including the JEM, the Sudan Liberation Army (SLA)- Abdul Wahid, and the Union of Forces of the Resistance.35

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/files/portal/spotlight/sudan/Sudan_pdf/SIB-15-arms-flows-and-holdings-in-Sudan.pdf

[M-A Lagrange]

sgmgrumpy,

Thanks for the link. Actually I did have that one. I recommand it for anyone who is interrested into weapon trafficking in Darfur.

I'll be very specific: I am looking at specific ethnic groups access to small weapons and more especially to the G3 ammunitions.
The ethnic groups I am looking at are living long the Ethiopian border in Jongley and Eastern Equatoria.
The main problem I have with small arms survey is that they look mainly at organised groups weapons purchases. I am looking at individual or micro local communities access to small weapons.
Also, most of the UN efforts are turned on Darfur. I believe there can be some links between South Sudan and Darfur for weapon smuggling but it's too far from where I am.

[Stan]

The Sergeant Major beat me to it :cool:

Years ago there were reports of 7.62 NATO coming into DRC. Nothing directly pointed to the Chinese but there was sufficient rumor to make one wonder.

I doubt the ammo is coming from The Czech or Polish republics, but one quick look at the head stamps and/or primers will do the trick.

Keep in mind there's some real old ammunition in Africa and may have nothing to do with recent illegal trafficking. I "obtained" a rather rare box of steel-cased .45 acp in 1992 with head stamps from 1943! Not a single misfire :eek:

Regards, Stan


sgmgrumpy,

Thanks for the link. Actually I did have that one. I recommand it for anyone who is interrested into weapon trafficking in Darfur.

I'll be very specific: I am looking at specific ethnic groups access to small weapons and more especially to the G3 ammunitions.
The ethnic groups I am looking at are living long the Ethiopian border in Jongley and Eastern Equatoria.
The main problem I have with small arms survey is that they look mainly at organised groups weapons purchases. I am looking at individual or micro local communities access to small weapons.
Also, most of the UN efforts are turned on Darfur. I believe there can be some links between South Sudan and Darfur for weapon smuggling but it's too far from where I am.




Stan, when you say China would probably be already producing 7.62 NATO in Africa, do you have any idea of where?

What I see is that this could come from Khartoum, Eritrea, Somalia; all through Ethiopia or Northern Kenya. But that would mean the production plan would be located in one of those places.
Do you think it could be the case?

Production Plants: Kenya maybe, but the other countries ? I read the ammo was being shipped in direct from the manufacturer. Somalia sounds like the easiest point of entry and great for sales.

[JarodParker]

Ethiopia
Hibret Machine Tools Engineering Complex - Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibret_Machine_Tools_Engineering_Complex)
MoD Begins Manufacturing Military Hardware (unsure about reliability of site)Link (http://allafrica.com/stories/200704230215.html)

Kenya Ordnance Factories CorporationWebsite (http://www.kofc.co.ke/products.htm)

[SethB]

Countries don't always check to make sure where their surplus ammo goes. South Afric sold a whole bunch to a German firm that later resold it on the US market...

It took them about 15 years to figure it out.

[sgmgrumpy]

Stan, Sorry. At least we both seem to immediately point in the same direction:D

M-A Lagrange

I thought you where also asking "where it was coming from". Checking the Stamp marks on the ammo would be a start.

As per Small Arms Survey:
Example (61) stamped on casing is from factory 61 (China). SAS website has a great document for tracing ammo. Ammunition Tracing Kit (http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/files/sas/publications/b_series_pdf/ATK/ATK.pdf)

[Stan]

Ethiopia
Hibret Machine Tools Engineering Complex - Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibret_Machine_Tools_Engineering_Complex)


That one supposedly closed in 2003, but definitely worth wondering if any surplus ammo made its way elsewhere.


Kenya Ordnance Factories CorporationWebsite (http://www.kofc.co.ke/products.htm)



ALL OUR AMMUNITIONS ARE MADE TO NATO MILITARY STANDARDS.

:eek:

[Kiwigrunt]

Keep in mind there's some real old ammunition in Africa and may have nothing to do with recent illegal trafficking. I "obtained" a rather rare box of steel-cased .45 acp in 1992 with head stamps from 1943! Not a single misfire :eek:



What about surplus R1 from SA? A few years ago a (few?) container load came into NZ and I purchased a case. Excellent ammo, and cheap:).

[JarodParker]

That one supposedly closed in 2003, but definitely worth wondering if any surplus ammo made its way elsewhere.

According to Wiki, it was re-opened in 2004 under a new name. No despot would shut down a munitions factory.

[Stan]

What about surplus R1 from SA? A few years ago a (few?) container load came into NZ and I purchased a case. Excellent ammo, and cheap:).

Hey Kiwi,
Good point although we experienced problems with some M1s donated to the Baltic States years ago using ammo previously designed for the R1.

Two issues - weapon chamber with head space in excess of 1.636 and a lacquer coating found on some of the SA surplus ammo.

As I recall the R1 was never designed to be a high volume repeater and would heat up after only 10 rounds - never understood why someone would bring an automatic to go deer hunting :rolleyes:

[Stan]

According to Wiki, it was re-opened in 2004 under a new name. No despot would shut down a munitions factory.

Hey Jarod,
I read that but I'm not confident with most Wiki entries without a little more research.

There's another AllAfrica story (http://allafrica.com/stories/200806060745.html) regarding Hibret Machine Tools. Based on this para from the article, I gotta wonder exactly what they really do :D


Besides, different size bullets, 60 and 82 mm Mortars and other miscellaneous non-lethal metal equipments by Hibret Machine Tools Engineering complex were some of the war equipments displayed at the 6-day long exhibition.

[M-A Lagrange]

Sergent Major Grumpy,

Yes I am looking at where it comes from and thanks again for the link. My point was just that the roads for Darfur are quite different than the roads of East part of South Sudan. Especially as there are a lot of traditional cross border movement by the cattle breeders.
As Small Arms Survey shown in several reports, those roads are the ones that were used up to 2005 by civilians to access small arms and ammunitions. They were going in the desertic part of West Ethiopia or West Kenya and exchanged cattles agains weapons.
I believe it is still the case but this could be different.
So my where it comes from question has 2 levels:
- where it comes from locally in that part of African, what are the roads taken by the weapons on the continent?
-And where it comes from: who is manufacturing the ammo.

Thanks again for your advices. Will be difficult for me to access directly the ammo as I am often moving with Sudanese military observors... :rolleyes:

M-A

[Kiwigrunt]

As I recall the R1 was never designed to be a high volume repeater and would heat up after only 10 rounds - never understood why someone would bring an automatic to go deer hunting :rolleyes:

Hmmm, I'm surprised to hear that. The R1 is really just a SA made FN FAL. I plink the R1 ammo through my G1 which is for all intent and purposes the same toy. Never had a problem with it (in saying that, it's not as if I've gone through thousands of rounds).



M-A Lagrange:
Thanks again for your advices. Will be difficult for me to access directly the ammo as I am often moving with Sudanese military observors...

If you have trouble getting your hands on the ammo, try to keep an eye open for the packaging, boxes, cases etc. Even just colours etc may perhaps give some clues.

[Stan]

Hmmm, I'm surprised to hear that. The R1 is really just a SA made FN FAL. I plink the R1 ammo through my G1 which is for all intent and purposes the same toy. Never had a problem with it (in saying that, it's not as if I've gone through thousands of rounds).

As I reluctantly recall from my Sub-Saharan days, it was more the SA ammo than the weapon. I also seem to recall the FN having a heavier barrel. Perhaps I got that Sierra backwards :o



M-A Lagrange:

If you have trouble getting your hands on the ammo, try to keep an eye open for the packaging, boxes, cases etc. Even just colours etc may perhaps give some clues.

Valid point going back to the Sergeant Major's link to the Small Arms Survey. The head stamp will identify the manufacturer's country of origin, but the packaging will identify many other things such as the original destination. Either way you are in for a ton of investigative work.

My best guess still resides with Kenya - Their historic love for the G3 (during that period of time twice as expensive as the AK) together with cheap and easy access to 7.62 NATO :D

[sgmgrumpy]

M-A


So my where it comes from question has 2 levels:


- where it comes from locally in that part of African, what are the roads taken by the weapons on the continent?

The million dollar answer...



-And where it comes from: who is manufacturing the ammo.

I would start by finding DDR points. Those monitors your walking with should know all to well, or should! Alot of information on your second question could be answered. If you ever observed a DDR point, it's a treasure trove for information, and a real treat if your a gun nut.:D

In my opionion this will not give you a 100% answer, but it would be a good source. However, even if you determine the actual place it was produced, it does not really mean alot until you put a few other pieces together. If you have say both AK and H&K ammo with the same stamps, now that would be interesting.:wry:


Good Luck

[JarodParker]

Hey Jarod,
I read that but I'm not confident with most Wiki entries without a little more research.

There's another AllAfrica story (http://allafrica.com/stories/200806060745.html) regarding Hibret Machine Tools. Based on this para from the article, I gotta wonder exactly what they really do :D

Hey Stan,
I agree with not completely relying on wiki articles, especially something this obscure. The Homicho Complex does get a nod on this USA War College doc from 2009 Link (http://www.csl.army.mil/usacsl/publications/IP_13_09_EnhancingProfessionalMilEdintheHOA.pdf). So I'm inclined to think that it's still in operation. Next time I'm in that corner of the world, I'll drop by the front gate and ask the nice man at the gate holding the AK whether a tour of the facility can be arranged. And of course I will report back here on the hilarity that will ensue.

[M-A Lagrange]

Does anyone have an idea about the small arms (G3 especially) in far west Ethiopia?
I am thinking of the Ikoroma ethnic group in particular but the whole area is under interrest.

Thanks

M-A

[William F. Owen]

Does anyone have an idea about the small arms (G3 especially) in far west Ethiopia?
I am thinking of the Ikoroma ethnic group in particular but the whole area is under interrest.


You'll find G3's anywhere in Africa where the National Armies had them, or with anyone which had backing from Saudi Arabia. My guess is, there will almost certainly be some.