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Rex Brynen
01-19-2010, 03:01 AM
Well, this is always helpful while undertaking COIN operations in the Muslim world...

U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794&page=1)
Pentagon Supplier for Rifle Sights Says It Has 'Always' Added New Testament References

By JOSEPH RHEE, TAHMAN BRADLEY and BRIAN ROSS
Jan. 18, 2010


Coded references to New Testament Bible passages about Jesus Christ are inscribed on high-powered rifle sights provided to the United States military by a Michigan company, an ABC News investigation has found.

The sights are used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the training of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers. The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $660 million multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the U.S. Army....

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Blotter/abc_scope_100118_mn.jpg
At the end of the serial number on Trijicon's ACOG gun sight, you can read "JN8:12", a reference to the New Testament book of John, Chapter 8, Verse 12, which reads: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." The ACOG is widely used by the U.S. military. (ABC News)

Trijicon confirmed to ABCNews.com that it adds the biblical codes to the sights sold to the U.S. military. Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, which is based in Wixom, Michigan, said the inscriptions "have always been there" and said there was nothing wrong or illegal with adding them. Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian."

Schmedlap
01-19-2010, 04:12 AM
Just because you can, it doesn't mean you should.

I'd love to know the justification for this one. W.T.F.

But, there is more than enough stupidity to go around here.

First off, what the story refers to as "Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes" are just shorthand notation for Bible verses. I guess you could call it a code, though I don't think the process of "decoding" the message is all that tricky. Furthermore, these "secret codes" are not even subject to copyright, let alone secret classification.


Weinstein, an attorney and former Air Force officer, said many members of his group who currently serve in the military have complained about the markings on the sights. He also claims they've told him that commanders have referred to weapons with the sights as "spiritually transformed firearm[s] of Jesus Christ."
And I'm sure that remark was made in all seriousness. Certainly not in jest. No way.:rolleyes:


"This is probably the best example of violation of the separation of church and state in this country," said Weinstein. "It's literally pushing fundamentalist Christianity at the point of a gun against the people that we're fighting. We're emboldening an enemy."
How can anybody that stupid have passed the bar exam in any state? The phrase "choke yourself" must have been coined specifically for him.

This seems like it could have been a simple matter of a phone call to the manufacturer stating, "knock this off, discontinue it, it is a substantive defect in the product given the missions that it will be used for," followed by a quiet order to troops to scrape this off any ACOGs. Nah. Let's not do that. Let's expose it, publish it, undercut our message... and then declare that the stupid Army is undercutting its message.

That's kind of like driving drunk and then mocking the police for failing to stop drunk drivers.

Ken White
01-19-2010, 04:57 AM
I foresee ACLU involvement. :rolleyes:

I also can foresee the Troops being told to remove the offending 'codes' and several filing through the outer casing of their sights causing a subsequent blanket order to cease filing and directing Cdrs to turn all the sights in to DS Maintenance for removal of the offending characters IAW MWO 9-236-10 followed by a GAO audit to determine how much the whole drill cost. :D

Oh. And the media report of J Troop, 10-73d Cav taking excess casualties due to the lack of optical sights, all having been in Maintenance for over three months, in the big fire fight at Fetterman's Sangar...

All for something that doesn't approach, much less pass the 'so what' test. :eek:

Backwards Observer
01-19-2010, 04:58 AM
Hey, it coulda been worse. MT 19:14?


Matthew 19:14 (New International Version)

14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19%3A14&version=NIV

jmm99
01-19-2010, 06:12 AM
would have been J15:8 & Q47:4:


Judg 15:8 .... smote them hip and thigh with a great slaughter...

and


Qur'an 47:4 .... in fight, smite at their necks...

William F. Owen
01-19-2010, 06:30 AM
And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. - Joel 2:30

Backwards Observer
01-19-2010, 06:50 AM
...who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.

The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Hand_Grenade_of_Antioch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk

Rex Brynen
01-19-2010, 12:32 PM
The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch

Perfectly, undoubtedly, for engagements with Killer Rabbits.

Rex Brynen
01-19-2010, 12:39 PM
Although, I would have thought if you really wanted to motivate the troops, Genesis 19:8 (http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/sodom_and_gomorrah/gn19_08.html) might be the most effective...

Schmedlap
01-21-2010, 12:54 AM
Interesting observation at Ink Spots: Let there be light, so that I can kill you with it (http://tachesdhuile.blogspot.com/2010/01/let-there-be-light-so-that-i-can-kill.html)


... the two inscriptions that are mentioned in the Post article refer to verses dealing with illumination, which is what a tritium night sight is meant to provide!

Xenophon
01-21-2010, 01:41 AM
So the bottom line here is that base DRMOs are soon going to have a lot of sights for cheap that can't be used by the military anymore?

Noted.

Van
01-21-2010, 01:47 AM
Why don't scripture quoters ever use Matthew 6:5-7?


"5. And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words."

Backwards Observer
01-21-2010, 02:44 AM
Pillar 6 Change continents for Christ. Train, equip and support indigenous military leaders as they build Christian ministries in their own nations.


http://www.militaryministry.org/about/


Matthew 4:9 (New International Version)

9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:9&version=NIV

Uboat509
01-21-2010, 06:23 AM
So the bottom line here is that base DRMOs are soon going to have a lot of sights for cheap that can't be used by the military anymore?

Noted.

Excelent point. I will be watching.

SFC W

William F. Owen
01-21-2010, 08:24 AM
So the bottom line here is that base DRMOs are soon going to have a lot of sights for cheap that can't be used by the military anymore?

Noted.
While I agree with your sentiment, I would merely observe that what you see in this affair is merely a product of gross stupidity.

Supplying optic sights with Christian references on them to a Muslim Army = Good idea or less good idea, than if they merely had no religious reference at all.
Does the scripture quote support US policy better for being there?
Is US policy to advocate Christianity to Muslims. If yes, the scripture should stay. If no, then someone needs to be sacked - and the offending references be subject to a 30 seconds with a grinding wheel!

Xenophon
01-21-2010, 12:08 PM
I agree 100% that the whole thing is beyond stupid. But if I can get some optics for dirt cheap out of the deal, then I say, "allahu ackbar!"

Rex Brynen
01-21-2010, 12:54 PM
If yes, the scripture should stay. If no, then someone needs to be sacked - and the offending references be subject to a 30 seconds with a grinding wheel!

Or the Army can simply make ACOG sights available with a wide range of religious symbols and quotations for soldiers who happen to be Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Zoastrian, etc. Frankly, I think a Wiccan sight complete with a pentagram would be way cool, allowing the Army to move beyond the confining limits of the "warrior" ethos to embrace the the witch/wizard/warlock/etc ethos too.

Also, perhaps Kiwigrunt can comment on the implications of such a policy in New Zealand, where 1.5% of the population reported their religious affiliation as "Jedi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon) in the 2001 census. :D

Use the Force, Luke! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2we_B6hDrY)

William F. Owen
01-21-2010, 01:13 PM
Frankly, I think a Wiccan sight complete with a pentagram would be way cool, allowing the Army to move beyond the confining limits of the "warrior" ethos to embrace the the witch/wizard/warlock/etc ethos too.

I can dig that! Next time I meet some wazak calling himself a "Warrior" I can say "Hi! I'm Warlock!" - or as an e-mail in the UK MOD apparently called me, "Somewhat less polite than Simon Cowell and twice as bitchy!" :eek:

kaur
01-21-2010, 01:40 PM
Wilf, could you find out what is Trijicon's message to British sharpshooters?

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/01/21/lmt-l129a1-lmt-308/

Pete
01-21-2010, 09:08 PM
... as an e-mail in the UK MOD apparently called me, "Somewhat less polite than Simon Cowell and twice as bitchy!"
Why pray tell would the apparatchiks of MOD say such a thing? My reason for asking is regimental loyalty--in 1915-1919 my step-grandfather served in a black-buttoned battalion, the Poplar and Stepney Rifles, better known as the 17th London. His cap badge was similar to that of Rifle Brigade, bears that name, and has the battle honour "South Africa, 1899-1902."

Rex Brynen
01-21-2010, 09:44 PM
Why pray tell would the apparatchiks of MOD say such a thing?

I can tell you haven't met Wilf :D

yamiyugikun
01-22-2010, 01:38 AM
Hi,

Found this interesting on yahoo news. What do you think? I've heard about the evangelistic movement in the military and activist groups that protest it.

Naomi


Firm will remove Bible references from gun sights

By RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press Writer Richard Lardner, Associated Press Writer 44 mins ago

WASHINGTON A Michigan defense contractor will voluntarily stop stamping references to Bible verses on combat rifle sights made for the U.S. military, a major buyer of the company's gear.

In a statement released Thursday, Trijicon of Wixom, Mich., says it is also providing to the armed forces free of charge modification kits to remove the Scripture citations from the telescoping sights already in use. Through multimillion dollar contracts, the Marine Corps and Army have bought more than 300,000 Trijicon sights.

The references to Bible passages raised concerns that the citations break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, which are predominantly Muslim countries.

A spokesman for U.S. Central Command initially said the Trijicon sights didn't violate the ban and compared the citations on the sights to the "In God We Trust" inscription printed on U.S. currency.

On Thursday, however, Army Gen. David Petraeus, Central Command's top officer, called the practice "disturbing."

"This is a serious concern to me and the other commanders in Iraq and Afghanistan," Petraeus told an audience at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

In a statement issued later by the command, Petraeus said that "cultural and religious sensitivities are important considerations in the conduct of military operations."

New Zealand announced Thursday that they would remove the citations from the sights they have, and Australia, which also uses the sights, is assessing what to do.

New Zealand defense force spokesman Maj. Kristian Dunne said Trijicon would be instructed to remove the inscriptions from further orders of the gun sights for New Zealand and the letters would be removed from gun sights already in use by troops.

The inscriptions are not obvious and appear in raised lettering at the end of the stock number. Trijicon's rifle sights use tritium, a radioactive form of hydrogen, to create light and help shooters hit what they're aiming for.

Markings on the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight, which is standard issue to U.S. special operations forces, include "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.

Photos posted on a Defense Department Web site show Iraqi forces training with rifles equipped with the inscribed sights.

Rev. C. Welton Gaddy, president of the Interfaith Alliance, said in a letter sent Thursday to President Barack Obama that the gun sights "clearly violate" the rule against proselytizing. Gaddy added that "images of American soldiers as Christian crusaders come to mind when they are carrying weaponry bearing such verses."

Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, contacted The Associated Press last week about the Scripture citations. He said he had received complaints from active-duty and retired members of the military. Weinstein said he couldn't identify them because they fear retaliation.

The company's practice of putting Bible references on the sites began nearly 30 years ago by Trijicon's founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, has continued the practice.

"Trijicon has proudly served the U.S. military for more than two decades, and our decision to offer to voluntarily remove these references is both prudent and appropriate," Stephen Bindon said in the statement.

The statement does not provide an estimate on the removal costs. A company spokesman did not return a telephone call.

The company is also making the same offer to military in other countries that have purchased Trijicon's rifle sights.

An Army spokesman said Thursday the service was unaware of the coded biblical references until a few days ago.

"It is not the policy of the Army or the Department of Defense to put religious references of any kind on its equipment," Lt. Col. Jimmie Cummings said.

Marine Corps spokeswoman Capt. Geraldine Carey said the service "is making every effort to remove these markings from all of our scopes and will ensure that all future procurement of these scopes will not have these types of markings."

__

Associated Press writer Anne Flaherty contributed to this report.

marct
01-22-2010, 04:28 AM
Frankly, I think a Wiccan sight complete with a pentagram would be way cool, allowing the Army to move beyond the confining limits of the "warrior" ethos to embrace the the witch/wizard/warlock/etc ethos too.

LOL - I'm just waiting until the Thorists in the Asatruar crowd get to play with this one :D!