Off the helos and back on the ground...
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Originally Posted by
jcustis
Outside of a few spectacular successes along Route 1 that have garnered more media hype than had actual effect, the TB aren't very good at targeting the logistical tail. These are not your Daddy's mujahadeen.
And, at least for the USMC, logistical support convoys aren't a drain on combat formations. The CSS guys (and gals) do it themselves.
To get back to the original thrust of this poster's question (and BTW, I think we missed the fact that he has not resurfaced with any more input), if not the MRAP in future war, what is the alternative?
Glad to see that we can expand our discussion back to the "tail". That is where the biggest bang for the buck is :D Sorry, could not help myself.
Seesm to be general agreement that the current crop of MRAPs/M-ATVs are something less then ideal troop carriers out at the sharp end of the stick.
However, back in the "rear" where the MSRs live its another story. Not alot of stelly eyed killers (With a nod to our Marine breathen, who appear to be able to self-defend their convoys/Combat Logistic Patrols). For several years now, the Army has been deploying National Guard BCTs for the sole purpose of MSR security/convoy escort.
If that remains the case, then this maybe the best place for MRAPs to operate, in the rear along the MSRs. If not as equipment in mission profiled BCTs then as attachements or plus-ups to either MP companies, truck companies or both.
Yes, let's talk about on the ground...
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Originally Posted by
TAH
For several years now, the Army has been deploying National Guard BCTs for the sole purpose of MSR security/convoy escort.
If that remains the case, then this maybe the best place for MRAPs to operate, in the rear along the MSRs. If not as equipment in mission profiled BCTs then as attachements or plus-ups to either MP companies, truck companies or both.
Not only ArNG BCTs but also AC Airborne and other BCTs. That is a monumental and IMO inexcusable waste of combat power in the case of either component. It is a testimonial to outdated concepts and an abject failure to adapt.
People are expensive. Training is expensive. Misuse of both is fraud, waste and abuse. Failure to adapt to world conditions is borderline criminal. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that...:mad:
I go back to an earlier point on the MRAP -- their presence encourages misuses of units and personnel. The vehicles need to go or they will continue to do that.
Fuchs is pretty well correct, we do lack good portable water purifiers.
The problem is that the US Armed Forces are required by law to meet US civilian water purity standards. There are plenty of portable devices or methods out there that produce adequately safe drinking water -- not least Chlorine or Iodine tablet; Aquamira Tablets, among others, are better than either. The problem is that the tablets and most of the devices or filters don't meet the EPA standard. That standard is massive overkill but the bureaucracy will have its way...
For current bulk water production this is used (LINK .pdf) and it is to be replaced by this (LINK) with increased capability and it mounts in / on a HMMWV instead of a HMTT or Mk28 MTVR. The Army has a large number of Water Purification and Distribution units and was prepared for a major war and making much pure water. They were not prepared for a small war and making a little bit of pure water.
There are several smaller variants, including a number of Kärcher units and SOCOM in particular buys and uses outpost sized units. For regular Army Co / Plat size patrols, units buy these (LINK) with own funds. They don't advertise that they have and use them due to the extremely stringent US EPA Water Safety standards. This new item (LINK .pdf) apparently meets the standards and is to be bought on a major contract. Note that it already has a NSN and a GSA contract.
I would make a comment about just ignoring civilian rules in combat zone but that might be considered subversion so I will not do that. Sigh... ;)
The body deals well with poisons in reasonable amounts.
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Originally Posted by
SJPONeill
one of the factors that I think may have changed between then and know is that then most theatres had relatively good water i.e. not polluted or contaminated except by some local nasties...now, many of our AOs have water sources that are contaminated by industrial and agricultural products that are essentially poisons so the old 'crap it out, harden up' approach may not be as applicable as it once may have been...
My info from folks in several theaters now or recently is that it's still every bit as applicable, it's just less politically and socially acceptable. We are all risk averse now... :rolleyes:
Note that is with the caveat, as always, that a bit of common sense must be applied. Do it on first arrival in theater, in the base area where the sickness (if any) can be better tolerated, that way if you later have to do local water -- or food -- operationally, your body will have already been conditioned to the resident fauna, flora and creepy crawlies. A few toxins now and then keep the immune system well tuned.
Still, even then one has to think. For example, one should succumb to thirst in a rice paddy only if one is really extremely parched. A side benefit to paddy water is that you do get the small Crayfish for protein as well. :D
At least, I think they were Crayfish... :o