Slapout has done you a favor, Xander.
You'll note that the linked article he provides mirrors your beliefs to a great extent. I believe that reflects the common wisdom of academia, the political classes and the media -- however I and others disagree with that on several counts.
I'll use Record's words and give my counterpoint. I say 'my' because these words are mine however I've found a large number of people all over the country -- not members of the academy or media -- who essentially agree.
Quoth the abstract of Record's essay:
Quote:
"Americans are averse to risking American lives when vital national interests are not at stake. Expecting that America's conventional military superiority can deliver quick, cheap, and decisive success, Americans are surprised and politically demoralized when confronted by Vietnam- and Iraq-like quagmires."
I strongly agree with his first point and more strongly disagree with his second. SOME Americans feel that way and they tend to move in the social circles in which Jeffrey moves; more Americans, I think are disappointed (not demoralized) that the armed forces have not succeeded and they are generally not surprised. The 'wisdom of crowds' syndrome applies; most are less surprised at failure or tedium than are the political and chattering classes.
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"...Since the early 1940s, the Army has trained, equipped, and organized for large-scale conventional operations against like adversaries, and it has traditionally employed conventional military operations even against irregular enemies.
He's showing his ignorance -- that's been true since 1787; that Prussian influence...It has been particularly true since 1900-17.
Having said all that, he's correct in his inference:
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"Barring profound change in America's political and military culture, the United States runs a significant risk of failure when it enters small wars of choice, and great power intervention in small wars is almost always a matter of choice. Most such wars, moreover, do not engage core U.S. security interests other than placing the limits of American military power on embarrassing display. Indeed, the very act of intervention in small wars risks gratuitous damage to America's military reputation.
but wrong, IMO, on three counts in the way he arrived at that inference; (1) his attribution of the risk aversion of the public is wrong as I stated above; (2) he does not understand or state all the drivers for the Army's predilection for avoiding small wars -- quite simply, they're very messy, very tedious and hard on the troops. That simple. Congress aids in this because of their misperception that the public is vehemently opposed (they are not, the 1/3 and two year rules apply) and their, Congress', desire to fund the big ticket procurement items as opposed to necessary training as vote buyers; (3) the statement that "the very act of intervention in small wars risks gratuitous damage to America's military reputation." is a left leaning ideological statement that is highly arguable if not downright ludicrous.
He ends with:
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"The United States should abstain from intervention in such wars, except in those rare cases when military intervention is essential to protecting or advancing U.S. national security."
I agree with that and again say he got the correct result but for the wrong reasons. :rolleyes:
The real reason to avoid such wars aside from the fact that they're messy and tedious (the Army position) is that we Americans are too impatient to prosecute them properly (the two year rule), too politically diverse and / or divided to develop unity of purpose in most cases (the 1/3 rule) and that most of them are, indeed, not necessary to secure US interests (Record's first and only accurate point...). IMO, of course. ;)
Thanks, John. My laziness again gets caught...
The 1/3 and two year rules are of course nothing but very simplistic rules of thumb, shorthand for American diversity / divisiveness and impatience. I know the psych-folks say there's no such thing as a national trait. Perhaps, but those two things come close to disproving that idea...
The 'rules' are a convenient and concise way to express two phenomena for which as you say there is evidence -- and there's certainly some practical accuracy there, subject as always to the exceptions. My general observation has been that a majority of Americans will support the effort for far longer if they perceive it is being prosecuted as well as can be expected and see a real American interest in the outcome. :cool:
I'm also convinced that most Americans are little affected by bodybags -- provided they see a return or prospect of one for the loss. ADDED, for Xander -- that's the great unwashed, the American public. Politicians and Academia are affected by them; the former for unreasoning fear of voter turnoff, the latter due to ideological persuasion. The media here in the US will affect sadness and dismay while they revel behind the scenes at the thought of greater sales; "if it bleeds, it leads" being their watchwords.
The thing that has always bothered me is not the fickleness of that 1/3 of the public in the center who vacillate depending on how well things seem to be going (though they're mildly annoying; either the effort is worthwhile or it is not) but the large ideological component of either Yea or Nay sayers. :confused:
I am unable to understand people or politicians (not the same thing, I think...) who put party loyalty or personal ideology above the needs of the nation. I understand that 'good' is a relative and viewpoint dependent judgment but it seems to me that a large number of good and bad determinations pertaining to a particular war or military operation are based mostly upon political affiliation or leaning...
Allowing ideology to affect ones choices I can understand -- if one is inclined to dislike war, then non-support of most or all wars is understandable and even correct IMO -- to like this or that war dependent upon which party started it is particularly pathetic and borderline indefensible IMO. :mad:
You could largely be correct.
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Originally Posted by
Schmedlap
Regarding the people, I think they see wars as a part of the political power struggle within the country and truly believe that the political power struggle is more important to the fate of the nation than the outcome of the war.
I'm sure this is true but still question the rationale for such a belief.
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Presidents get good approval ratings when the war kicks off (See 41 and 43).
That's the 1/3 rule kicking in. One could make the same comment about Clinton and the Balkans or Kennedy and Viet Nam. Initial support about 60% ±; then when things didn't go well, support declines to about 30% ± as the fickle, 'how well is it going' middle third abandon ship (then come back as things improve -- or not...). In all those cases, the bulk of the less than hard core Anti-war types in the 30% ± opposition to the war were supporters of the out of power political party of the time. Same thing has been true in most of our wars. That makes political sense but is still, to me, illogical and perverse.
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There is a political interest in the opposition party to remove public support so as to erode the political clout gained by the executive and his party. I think that many in the party truly think that this is in the country's long-term best interests.
I'm sure you're correct, I think pretty much the same thing but submit in the first case that is totally venal IMO and in the latter case, that's just dumb because both parties have done enough wrong along the same line that no one should have much faith in either of them to do much that's good for the nation. :rolleyes:
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Regarding the politicians, I think they (most) are just power-hungry sociopaths. The rest are probably motivated by sentiments similar to the people.
We can totally agree on that... ;)
As I said, you're probably, almost certainly, right -- but I'm still at a loss to really understand it. Maybe that's because I own more than one firearm??? :wry:
Probably true. However, the problem is that
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Originally Posted by
AmericanPride
I think most people believe, knowingly or not, that what's "good" for them is also "good" for the country as a whole.
what is good for Person no. 1 is slightly different for Person no. 2 which is slightly different fer Person no. 3 -- and so on to no.301,214,726. IOW, the sliding scale of what's perceived as 'good' is infinite -- and changes almost daily as the age, circumstances, locations and situation of people change in multitudinous ways. Ergo, there is no real thread of continuity or logic so I still question the rationale. Sorry. ;)
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Political factions are always busy rewriting history and reality to illustrate the significance and necessity of their own existence.
True. That's bad enough; they also tend when in power to write dippy laws based on those skewed perspectives and including some that they hope will cement their hold on that power -- thus I strongly question the need for their existence even if they don't. :mad:
Federal office holders, including elected politicians all seem to forget their oath of office:
"I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."
I see no mention of party -- or, indeed, of District or State in there (nor, for the Armed Forces, of Branch or Service... :D ).
The admission oath at SCOTUS
is even simpler:
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I, __, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that as an attorney and counselor of this Court I will conduct myself uprightly and according to law, and that I will support the Constitution of the United States.
Interestingly enough, under Rule 8 (attorney discipline), a majority of the Court decides without an adversarial merits hearing whether "conduct unbecoming" (the standard for disbarment) has occured - the burden is then on the attorney to prove innocence. So it has been from the gitgo.