Cops or Police in Counterinsurgency COIN

I'm torn on this one: part of me wants to argue that street gangs have been fighting a small, dirty, limited war against the government and the police for years; but as soon as I say that, there's a part of me that's gonna want to point out that the government and the police have been losing that war.

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Originally Posted by 40below

I'm torn on this one: part of me wants to argue that street gangs have been fighting a small, dirty, limited war against the government and the police for years; but as soon as I say that, there's a part of me that's gonna want to point out that the government and the police have been losing that war.

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If you're interested, we've compared and contrasted the nature of gangs and insurgencies in various threads. This one is about the issues in NorCal.

John P. Sullivan has also written extensively in SWJ on the issues in LA and future threats.

This is some really interesting stuff and in my opinion, should have happened a while ago. Not only are we possibly causing the Taliban to appear as criminals (which may or may not be good as Rex mentioned), but we are strengthening the enforcement of the law. Having guys trained take down gangs with the proper law enforcement techniques is better than sending in heavily armed guys that start a firefight for obvious reasons. Ideal results: Less "gangs" through action that doesn't completely disturb and annoy the population.

It would even be better if we could try to pass this law enforcement training to the Afghan National Police. Yes the ANP have alot of issues to work out, but we are mainly providing them with paramilitary training right now. If they learn how to do "proper" law enforcement (methods of handling evidence, undercover agents, CSI, etc), then in the long term, I think they would be more efficient and the situation would be better. An interesting article discussing this was published by FP a couple of weeks ago.

This is a good step, especially when thinking long term. We will see how it works out.

I will make sure to check out John Sullivan's work.

This is exactly how you attack the counter message. They are "fakers" of Islam. They are not heroes they are punks. Battles for legitimate rules of neighborhoods happen everyday. Insurgencies can be gangs/organized crime on empowered to the level of direct action against it rivals or legitimate government. The other way to combat them would be through a rival gang. Crips vs blood then their resources are expended at that level instead of government actors. Gang A kills Gang B and you put Gang B in prison two for the price of one.

Interesting article and great initiative by the Marines...certainly supports various findings over the years that this 'new war' is possibly more akin to policing and CRIMINT than it is to the Fulda Gap...

...however I'm a little wary about criminalising the Taliban at the same as they are one of the key power blocs that needs to be brought to the table. It's just not a simple case of black and white, good v bad where groups can be categorised and boxed up that easily - and as Rex points out the bigger criminals maybe those in the Afghan government. I think that we might be better off int he long term considering the Taliban as competitors in AFG as opposed to direct adversaries/enemies (as we may once have thought of Soviet Russia, China, Nazi Germany, etc) and accept that this new environment just multiple layers of grey and that means that we will probably need to accept unsavoury partnerships and alliances in support of the long term game...

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Originally Posted by SJPONeill

Interesting article and great initiative by the Marines...certainly supports various findings over the years that this 'new war' is possibly more akin to policing and CRIMINT than it is to the Fulda Gap...

...however I'm a little wary about criminalising the Taliban at the same as they are one of the key power blocs that needs to be brought to the table. It's just not a simple case of black and white, good v bad where groups can be categorised and boxed up that easily - and as Rex points out the bigger criminals maybe those in the Afghan government. I think that we might be better off int he long term considering the Taliban as competitors in AFG as opposed to direct adversaries/enemies (as we may once have thought of Soviet Russia, China, Nazi Germany, etc) and accept that this new environment just multiple layers of grey and that means that we will probably need to accept unsavoury partnerships and alliances in support of the long term game...

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Thomas Barnett

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Originally Posted by MikeF

If you're interested, we've compared and contrasted the nature of gangs and insurgencies in various threads. This one is about the issues in NorCal.

John P. Sullivan has also written extensively in SWJ on the issues in LA and future threats.

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This topic has actually come up at a few NA security conferences I've attended, with fun sidebars like how Iran is underwriting Columbia's cocaine industry. Thanks for the link, I'm reading.

Ian

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Originally Posted by huskerguy7

This is some really interesting stuff and in my opinion, should have happened a while ago. Not only are we possibly causing the Taliban to appear as criminals (which may or may not be good as Rex mentioned), but we are strengthening the enforcement of the law.

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If you enforce the law without favoring any side but the Law itself you will gain the respect of the people.....may take awhile but if you are really fair, I think they will come around.

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Originally Posted by OfTheTroops

This is exactly how you attack the counter message. They are "fakers" of Islam.

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Fakers of Islam....I like that;)

Sullivan's writings can be found here. My favorite is his last with Adam Elkus, an up and coming defense analyst. Adam has his own blog on strategy and security issues here.

IRT Taliban/AQ as criminals, I still tend towards the thoughts of some of my Pak Army brothers that I got to spend some time with in Monterey.

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Mike, they are nothing more than miscreants. Your stupid GWOT gives them credence and credibility of which they do not deserve.

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Originally Posted by 40below

I'm torn on this one: part of me wants to argue that street gangs have been fighting a small, dirty, limited war against the government and the police for years; but as soon as I say that, there's a part of me that's gonna want to point out that the government and the police have been losing that war.

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The Police just like the military can enforce the Law and enforce the Peace but only the Government can win it. The Police always win the battles unless our budget gets cut. What happens is the Government never addresses the underlying causes of the problem, it is easier just to call 911.

A recent article by FP discussing this was published. May be of interest to SWC. LINK

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Originally Posted by huskerguy7

A recent article by FP discussing this was published. May be of interest to SWC. LINK

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There is often one critical element that is overlooked in these constant engagement programs. In America we(police) can constantly engage the community because we all speak the same language:eek:

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Originally Posted by slapout9

There is often one critical element that is overlooked in these constant engagement programs. In America we(police) can constantly engage the community because we all speak the same language:eek:

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That's a very good point. I wonder how much the language barrier in Afghanistan will bog down law enforcement (by ISAF). I bet it will not only slow things down, but hamper the development of relationships with people in neighborhoods.

Gretchen Peters adds her experienced viewpoint:http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...dahar?page=0,0

So, how does this wonderful framework account for LAPD's response under fire?

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Originally Posted by Presley Cannady

So, how does this wonderful framework account for LAPD's response under fire?

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Presley,

For a non-American member, what do you refer to? I know LAPD have been accused of being too harsh in the past, e.g. Rodney King, but have seen little on the current situation and especially since Bratton has been Chief of Police.

Moderator's Note

This thread contains two old threads 'Send more cops' and 'Cops Show Marines How To Take On Taliban'. It has been renamed 'Cops or Police in Counterinsurgency' following today's post.

There is another related thread, but that refers to COIN coming home to assist law enforcement (mainly in the USA):http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=5424 (ends).

Found in the IISS Library, London thsi week is a hitherto unknown book: Policing Insurgencies: Cops as Counterinsurgents. Edited by C. Christine Fair and Sumit Ganguly. Published by OUP (India) in 2013.

Contents: http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprofso/9780198094883.001.0001/acprof-9780198094883

No reviews on either Amazon websites: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Policing-Ins...nterinsurgents

A lengthy review of the book 'Policing Insurgencies: Cops as Counterinsurgents'. Edited by C. Christine Fair and Sumit Ganguly; is attached; it concerns all the chapters, not just those on India.