or not... :D
This of course applies to Sledge 142's post ending with "I think you need to suck it up..."
RTK's got faster fingers than I do...
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or not... :D
This of course applies to Sledge 142's post ending with "I think you need to suck it up..."
RTK's got faster fingers than I do...
Without heading too far down this road ...
I'm going to stick up for Sledge a little here.
First, he's new to the board. Even though he started with a rant, we shouldn't reinforce the (sometimes stated) perception that the SWC is an echo chamber "clique" where the new guys are beat up on, Ken dispenses sage wisdom, and then Steve Metz shows up with a joke to end the thread. ;)
Show a little patience and respect for what he is articulating as an injustice. Let's argue the points if we disagree rather than head down the road of personal insult.
Back on topic ....
While there is an amount of "call the waaahbulance" in the post (I lived in a hotel during my OBC and drove my POV to Knox), perhaps the arrangements for the students could be a little better. It does suck being mobility limited around a hotel.
However, I don't think this should be an insurmountable problem for Majors attending MEL 4. I'm suprised no one has a POV for car-pooling or loaning. RTK has a point, lots of guys are sucking down a lot more. Additionally, what good does complaining on SWC do? Have they taken it up with the chain of command? What was the response? Is there a middle ground rather than the Army paying for each student a POV rental for the duration? (When I go TDY with multiple people we have to share rentals 3x person).
Just some thoughts. Let's keep SWC professional and inclusive.
Niel
123456
What injustice was articulated? No reimbursement for miles in and around TDY site? A O4 or O5 may have to manage their time a little better?
"-car pooling to the gym (no longer are you able to make last minute decisions on when to study, go to the gym, eat, sleep, etc.)"
On a side note, I would love to know how this relates to COIN. Is it that we are losing experienced mid-level COIN officers because of rental car/milage reimbursment?
Maybe the huge amount of brain power on this site ( I am a self diagnosed dummy so I am not included) could contribute in other ways then to figure this one out.
The situation Sledge describes is not anything close to hardship, imo, but from my perspective it's just plain dumb and is probably false economy. I can see much to criticize in the system, but not for reasons of hardship. For example, it seems really stupid to me that the DFAC is closed on weekends and the authorized transport cannot be used to go to a restaurant. Where is one supposed to eat? It would piss me off too, but I'd just bring my PoV and that would be that. Still, I think Sledge's last sentance has some merit:
As an all-volunteer force, and as one that is experiencing problems with retention, one would think it would be in the Army's best interest to reduce queep as much as possible. In this case, simply establishing some rules to use the vans for authorized unofficial uses would go a long way to making everyone happier IMO.Quote:
So big Army, offer all the bonuses you want to keep people in, but this idea is as worthless an idea I have ever heard of...can someone explain the Army values to me again?
I'll use my own experience as an analogy. I first joined the Navy as an enlisted intel specialist in the early 1990's. I spent over a year in various intense schools along with the expense (to the government) of a high-level security clearance, etc. I finally got to my first duty assignment, inprocessed and after a week was told to report to the base Gym for my "TAD" or "Temporary Additional Duty." My job? Hand out towels for three months. Every E-4 and below gets a bit of TAD love, or at least they did back then. My job was actually cushier than most. Still, it seemed at the time, and it still seems to me all these years later, that it was an incredible waste, particularly right after all that schooling, not to mention a morale killer. I didn't, after all, join the f'ing Navy to pass out f'ing towels! :mad: All that information that had been crammed into my head wasn't exploited and built upon immediately at my new unit. If TAD is so important, why not let me apply my skills for a few months and then do my TAD? It's one of those memories that's stuck with me and continues to serve as the emblematic memory of all the things wrong with the Navy that I saw.
So, my point is that sometimes the little stuff matters. Sometimes the little stuff stays with you and often a lot of little stuff can add up to something big. False economy and queep are two little things that can add up. While I might criticize the tone of Sledge's post, the content, particularly how it might affect the big picture, deserves a look.
I'd say Ranger 94 also has a point:Seems to me that picking the proper forum for a complaint can be mildly important; pick the wrong one and one is likely to get wrong answers -- or raucous catcalls.Quote:
"On a side note, I would love to know how this relates to COIN. Is it that we are losing experienced mid-level COIN officers because of rental car/milage reimbursment?"
With that pearl of sophomoric wisdom; I'll now cue Steve.
Steve. Steve. Ste - STEEVE -- SHUT THAT THING OFF SO YOU can hear. Better. Thanks. Uh, you're up...
....before this gets cut off or moved can I do my touge-in-cheek rant about waiting in the long line at Potbelly in Crystal City underground? No? Fine, if you must (with dejected expression).
Selil wrote:
I have about 10 years in the private sector, before, after, and during my graduate education. For a lot of it, I was a paralegal, so I like to think of it as being "prior enlisted." I was like a gunny.Quote:
A couple months back I realized that there were very few people on SWJ/C that have extensive business world experience. Though I'm the age of most of the majors or ltcols I got out of the Marines in 1986, and left law enforcement for corporate in 1993. Most of the academics are traditional academics. I've been all the way to a director level position in a fortune 500 company and I have never once been paid to move.
Of course, I worked mostly for law firms and we were treated quite well. The defense consultancy was not quite so.
Sledge wrote:
Two points: First: Historically, the guys at the absolute front line have traditionally suffered shortfalls in just about everything needed to fight a war. An American force has never lost a war because of this. You can get the job done without all the resources needed -- it's the rule of 4/6ths, where you only ever get 4/6ths of what you need to get the job done. Comes from a great quote from Chosin, a battle weary Marine tells a female reporter that the most difficult part of the campaign was trying to get four inches of [bleeeeep] out of 6 inches of clothing. Apparently you can. Yeah, you don't have everything you need -- consider it a tactical problem. To the extent that you need to take care of people, you need to focus on those at the pointy end first. That might mean some scraping for the garrison folks. So be it. (And yes, there remain problems at the pointy end, even in the age of DFAC's Five Flavors.) Second: Did you not notice that there has been a precipitous rise in gas prices? Vanpooling and driving around less sounds sensible. I stay at plenty of crappy motels in the middle of nowhere. When I'm staying there, I walk from Ft. McNair to the metro station/Safeway at night. You can always walk somewhere.Quote:
the fact that there are many people who receive substandard care or live in substandard conditions in the Army is not an argument that everyone should suck it up...perhaps the culture should become a culture of taking care of as many people as possible instead of one that wears substandard treatment, equipment, and conditions as a source of pride
I hope you have tremendous pride that you can get the mission done regardless of what you are given...while that is admirable in most cases; in other cases it means not really getting the mission done, what it probably means is that you did something short of the mission...that significant shortfalls (not immediately apparent) most likely will arise down the line because you were not given appropriate resources...however, that is not your problem, you will have moved onto another job (after receiving your top block) and the long term problem is someone else's...another cultural weakness of the military (short term thinking)
But then, I'm just a poor grad student, and we pay for all my research and other related trips ourselves -- on a Major's salary (and that's a no-bonus Major in the Marine Corps -- artillery has never, ever received a bonus). So, take it from me, it could be worse. [Imagine a cutesy emoticon here.]
Cheers,
Jill
The reactions on this thread are a mix of confusion and incredulity that a field grade officer would complain about such trifles and express such a sense of entitlement. None of us were owed anything more than what it took to get the mission accomplished, plus 4 hours of sleep. Sometimes, it is just amazing to behold what some people complain about.
This reminds me of a trip that I made to a FOB in OIF III. We only went to drop some stuff off at mortuary affairs and to get warlocks installed, but we happened upon the PX and were in dire need of AA batteries and 9-volts. I hadn't had a shower in 2 months, most of my Soldiers hadn't had one in at least 3 or 4 weeks. We lived on MREs, except for 2 hot meals per week, so when we went into the PX we were looking around like a family on its first visit to Disney World, wide-eyed, in awe of the absurd selection of pop-tarts, chips, condoms, video games, et cetera. One of my Soldiers commented about all of the food. Someone in her IPFU and reflective belt dryly pointed out, "it's usually not this good. They run out of chocolate pudding every other day." That moment has been seared into my memory. I felt like I was in a bad B-rated war movie. I thought it was foolish to complain when living amidst such luxury, variety, and security. But complaining about accomodations here in the US kind of takes the cake.
Everybody says or types something stupid every now and then. It is best to just acknowledge it and move on. I'm not sure why sledge chooses to keep arguing this. But, it could be worse. At least sledge had the good judgment to use a pseudonym.
123456
but didn't wanta ask... :o. Weird in my book. Made me wonder if the Army senior NCOS have their Dress Blues over there??? :D )
It is my understanding that it is a force protection issue - too many people were being run over on FOBs by lunatic driving. Someone's analysis of the situation obviously suggested that one of the reasons they were being run over was that they were not been seen. We were 'issued' said belts at a Coalition staging base in the Middle East prior to entering Iraq. We never wore them again the minute we left that base.
Regarding wearing them in a 'combat' environment - the only people I saw wear them off a FOB were SOI / CLC - they were part of the initial uniform / identification kit that many were given. And for the most part I think it worked for them insofar as most coalition soldiers could not help but notice the reflective belts and hence would not immediately reach for a weapon at the sight of an armed Iraqi in civvie clothes dominating a street....
Quote:
Regarding wearing them in a 'combat' environment - the only people I saw wear them off a FOB were SOI / CLC - they were part of the initial uniform / identification kit that many were given. And for the most part I think it worked for them insofar as most coalition soldiers could not help but notice the reflective belts and hence would not immediately reach for a weapon at the sight of an armed Iraqi in civvie clothes dominating a street....
Ahh so they are VS17 panels for host nation forces? :D
Reminds me of being lectured in training about finding a place to live where I would blend in--when I got to Africa :wry:
Tom
Here's the decision briefing:
Reflective moments in history . . .
I considered writing a book about my FOB experiences. I even have drafts and a very good outline for how it would be structured. My only reservation about contacting a publisher is that it would be difficult to pull it off without the book reflecting poorly on the military. Therefore, it will probably never leave my hard drive and will only serve as a source of entertainment among my friends and I.
I never lived on a FOB, but I visited them about every 3 or 4 weeks (thankfully only for hours at a time) during OIF III and passed through them several times in OIF V. EVERY time that I visited a FOB, I discovered some new rule that made absolutely no sense. I am not just talking about a rule that one would regard as a little dumb. I mean rules that you could not make up. By OIF III, I had been in the Army for 6 years, so there were some weird rules that I could anticipate (ground guides, wearing a helmet to drive a HMMWV 50 meters, etc). But the rules at places like LSA Anaconda and FOB Speicher were just out-of-this-world, scratch-your-head, stand-up-and-scream stupid.
The reflective belt thing was, indeed, a safety measure to prevent people from being run over. It has since become one of those things that is so prevalent on FOBs that all FOB dwellers can relate to it and it is something that they can all laugh about - a shared garrison quirk that they were all subjected. A shared "hardship" I suppose. To some extent, the rule makes some sense. But, then there are other rules...
My personal favorite was the requirement for an "O-6 memo" in order to drive a HMMWV without a "TC." What O-6 has the time to write someone a memo to drive a HMMWV without a TC? The MP with the flashing blue lights who was doing the traffic stop couldn't answer that question either. And, of course, for those of us who do not live on FOBs, how are we supposed to know about such an obscure rule? He couldn't answer that one either. And whose idea was it to send the "traffic ticket" to my company commander at our patrol base? (It arrived 4 days later, via LOGPAC, with a pallet of track, roadwheels, and two pallets of water. I'm not kidding.)
SchmedlapQuote:
I considered writing a book about my FOB experiences.
Sounds like a wonderful submission to SWJ Magazine.
My favorite was returning to a FOB for a briefing and seeing that all the road signs were changed to Monopoly names. My boys started calling it FOB Candyland.
I preferred the patrol base. Although we did not have salsa night and green beans, we felt satisfied knowing that we were actually accomplishing the mission.
Fact Non Verba
Agreed there. It allowed a lot of freedom from the rampant FOB stupidites, like PT belts.
I remember having the BCT CSM come down to the CO COP and get mad because he saw guys lounging in T-Shirts without a blouse on (inside, and in the common areas outside). He chewed my 1SG for allowing lax uniform discipline, and lectured him that on the FOB there was no working or lounging in T-Shirts only. This was the same CSM who wanted the polar fleece worn under the ACU top. We rolled eyes and complied until he left the FOB for Green Beans. The advantage of living on the COP were able to do what makes sense, and my officers and NCO's maintained combat discipline. (Clean weapons, ready vehicles, etc).
All that said, not everyone on the FOB is a Fobbit, and everyone has their role. It's easy to throw stones at those who have it less hard, but they do perform vital roles. The vast majority also understand that as well and bend over backwards for the forward deployed, but there are always a few petty tyrants.
Just trying to bring a little humor and change the absurdity of this thread so we can move on to more important topics- minor issues like Iraq and Afghanistan instead of relentlessly debating the complexities and hardships of TDY.
I'll stop rambling now.
v/r
Mike
Please publish the book...you could always use your SWC name as the author! I have also regailed many of my rediculous experiences in Iraq on my hard drive, not limited to FOB madness. I also proudly never resided on a FOB; just patrol and fire bases. That has nothing to do with my performance or position, but just luck.
Per you quote, my first question would be, "WHY ARE THE MPs BEING UTILIZED AS FOB COPS AND NOT OUT IN SECTOR DOING THEIR JOB?" What an absolute waste of a combat asset! A perfect example of Army inefficiency and another reason why Iraq is (was) such a mess.