This latest commentary will take time to print and read. First glance the language is rather odd, especially for an author from that conservative think tank viewpoint.
Another time.
davidbfpo
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This latest commentary will take time to print and read. First glance the language is rather odd, especially for an author from that conservative think tank viewpoint.
Another time.
davidbfpo
Came across this podcast by Peter Hain, the former Northern Ireland Secretary, talking in London in December 2008 on the peace process: http://www.mtcmedia.co.uk/icsr/seminar.php and the podcast is 27 minutes long. Interesting summary and points.
This thread could fit elsewhere and took time to choose here.
davidbfpo
Op Banner was the British Army's name for their operation in Northern Ireland and one of the army's authors of a report on the conflict recently spoke:
http://www.militaryhistorysociety.co...etingNotes.doc
davidbfpo
Earlier in 2009 at the University of Oxford, as part of a series by a specialist department on war, there was a seminar on 'Detainees in Northern Ireland' by a historian from the UK Staff College and just found a short report. The seminar is a rather bland title for internment and hard interrogation in 1971: http://ccw.politics.ox.ac.uk/events/...09_bennett.asp
This is from the conclusion:davidbfpoQuote:
Enacting deep interrogation in Northern Ireland, despite warnings about the consequences from military advisers, proved a hugely symbolic moment in alienating an entire community. Once allowed the notorious five techniques by their political masters, military commanders were reluctant to give them up, devising elaborate schemes for retaining them in the face of widespread political outrage in Britain and abroad.
Comments on the peace process in Northern Ireland / Ulster pop up in the oddest places. This might be better in a thread on talking to he taliban, but there isn't one - according to my memory.
Published earlier in 2009 was a book 'Talking to Terrorists: Making Peace in Northern Ireland and the Basque Country', by John Bew, Martyn Framptom, and Inigo Gurruchagaby. The book's website: http://www.talkingtoterrorists.org/blog/main.php
In a review by the conservative US think tank, AEI, on their new defence site, note the author Gary Schmitt is is ex-Project for the New American Century: http://www.aei.org/article/100871
The review highlight:Another UK conservative comment: http://www.henryjacksonsociety.org/stories.asp?id=1194Quote:
According to this marvelous new study, there are serious reasons to doubt that the model of conflict resolution relied on here is an accurate account of what actually happened in Northern Ireland and, therefore, a realistic guide for dealing with similar terrorist insurgencies.
Clearly some of the lessons learned could apply to Afghanistan as Schmitt's review indicates.Quote:
On the basis of the British experience in Northern Ireland, it is now widely argued that talking to terrorists is a pre-requisite for peace, and that governments should avoid rigid pre-conditions in their attempts to bring extremists into the political process...But does this understanding really reflect how peace was brought to Northern Ireland? And can it be applied to other areas where democratic governments face threats from terrorist organisations?
In challenging this idea, the authors of "Talking to Terrorists: Making Peace in Northern Ireland and the Basque Country" suggest that what really matters is not the act of talking to terrorists itself, but a range of other variables including the role of state actors, intelligence agencies, hard power and the wider democratic process. In some cases, talking can do more harm than good. But above all, there is a crucial difference between talking to terrorists who believe that their strategy is succeeding and engaging with those who have been made to realise that their aims are unattainable by violence.
davidbfpo
I think that says most of it.Quote:
In some cases, talking can do more harm than good. But above all, there is a crucial difference between talking to terrorists who believe that their strategy is succeeding and engaging with those who have been made to realise that their aims are unattainable by violence.
Twentyfive years ago today the Provisional IRA (PIRA) nearly decapitated the UK government, with a bomb left in the hotel used by Mrs Thatcher and others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_hotel_bombing
Lord Tebbitt has written this article, he was trapped in the blast, with his wife: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...hton-bomb.html
A shorter podcast is within this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8301851.stm and an excellent, fifty minute documentary by Peter Taylor: http://www.viddler.com/explore/An_Finineach/videos/7/
Patrick Magee the man convicted of planting the bomb was released as part of the Good Friday Agreement.
davidbfpo
After 12 years and thousands of witness statements, the official "Bloody Sunday" inquiry report was issued today--you'll find the full text here.
According to the BBC report of PM Cameron's statement to the House of Commons:
Quote:
Bloody Sunday killings 'unjustified and unjustifiable'
Page last updated at 16:06 GMT, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 17:06 UK
The Bloody Sunday killings were unjustified and unjustifiable, the Prime Minster has said.
Thirteen marchers were shot dead on 30 January 1972 in Londonderry when British paratroopers opened fire on crowds at a civil rights demonstration.
...
Fourteen others were wounded, one later died. The Saville Report is heavily critical of the Army and found that soldiers fired the first shot.
Prime Minister David Cameron said he was "deeply sorry".
He said that the findings of the Saville Report were "shocking".
A huge cheer erupted in Guildhall Square in Derry as Mr Cameron delivered the findings which unequivocally blamed the Army for one of the most controversial days in Northern Ireland's history.
...
Mr Cameron said:
- No warning had been given to any civilians before the soldiers opened fire
- None of the soldiers fired in response to attacks by petrol bombers or stone throwers
- Some of those killed or injured were clearly fleeing or going to help those injured or dying
- None of the casualties was posing a threat or doing anything that would justify their shooting
- Many of the soldiers lied about their actions
- The events of Bloody Sunday were not premeditated
- Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness, Sinn Fein, was present at the time of the violence and "probably armed with a submachine gun" but did not engage in "any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire"
The head of the Army, General Sir David Richards, said he fully supported Mr Cameron's apology.
...
The sad follow on from here is that:
Bloody Sunday: Soldiers may face prosecution over 'unjustifiable' killings
I agree with the following quote from the news article:
As per my comments on Algeria... why single out these acts?Quote:
Lord Maginnis of Drumglas, an Ulster Unionist peer, said the report was "one-eyed" in its emphasis on just 14 of the 180 violent deaths in the province in the preceding year.
By all means prosecute these soldiers if there is a case to answer but lets see the next inquiry into the other deaths begin immediately.
Unsurprisingly the strong feeling in my quarters is that it would be duplicitous at best if soldiers were prosecuted for past wrongs committed in the heat of the moment, when under the Good Friday Agreement terrorists received an amnesty.
It will be interesting to see what the various Republican agendas in Northern Ireland will make from this.
Of note, although it rarely makes the news, is that the levels of terrorist violence in Northern Ireland have (IMHO) now passed those seen in the 1990s and are approaching 1980s levels. They do not make the news because they do not have the Sein Feinn propaganda machine behind them and they have been largely ineffective in killing people (although marginally more effective in maiming). As ever though, with trial and error they are gaining in competence.
An interesting viewpoint by General Sir Michael Rose, a soldier who served in Londonderry on the day and rose to fame later, notably in Bosnia:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...criminals.html
Will Saville like enquiries re-appear in today's campaigns?Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...#ixzz0qy1gnPm5Quote:
Nor should the effect of the Saville Inquiry on the British soldiers fighting today in Afghanistan be underestimated. Some will be the sons and even grandsons of those being accused of unlawful killing.
Even if they are not, they will be asking themselves whether each time they open fire on the Taliban, they might not, in some distant future inquiry, be asked to justify their actions. This is no way to go to war.
I have not read today's news, but do recall watching from the "mainland" how Northern Ireland plunged into violence after 'Bloody Sunday'.
The points made in a pre-publication article in The Spectator strike a chord with me:Link:http://newstaging.spectator.widearea...y-sunday.thtmlQuote:
(On Pg.5) In 1999, in an otherwise unwise Radio 4 interview, Colonel Wilford, the man who commanded 1 Para that day, gave vent to the feelings of many. ‘I have to ask,’ he said, ‘what about Bloody Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and every day of the week?
‘What about Bloody Omagh? What about Bloody Warrenpoint, Enniskillen, Hyde Park, or Bloody Aldershot and Brighton — bloody everything the IRA have ever touched.’
It is a good question. Colonel Wilford, like his men, lives in his retirement wondering whether the law will come for him. Yet one other commander, a paramilitary commander, has, like certain other men who fired that day, never looked back and shares none of the worries of British soldiers. The man I watched grandstanding in the Guildhall of Londonderry is too busy being Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. And nobody, but nobody, would order an inquiry into him. Or any of the other bloody things he and his bloody movement ever bloody touched. This is one-directional justice. Each individual will have to work out for themselves whether this constitutes the mature behaviour of a democracy at its very best, or a wasteful exercise in appeasing a political sympathy that has been appeased for too many years.
Of course, it might also be argued that had some of the paras "thought twice" in 1972 some of the Troubles might have been a little less troubled.Quote:
Nor should the effect of the Saville Inquiry on the British soldiers fighting today in Afghanistan be underestimated. Some will be the sons and even grandsons of those being accused of unlawful killing.
Even if they are not, they will be asking themselves whether each time they open fire on the Taliban, they might not, in some distant future inquiry, be asked to justify their actions. This is no way to go to war.
which is why it's a really bad idea to send them if you do not want want dead bodies at the destination...
This is not really a threadjacking, it is a reminder that using general purpose forces as police is fraught with potential problems. The Paras were sent, they did what Paras do and they pay the price while the politicians that caused them to be there left for comfortable retirements with no after effects.
Still, it's all a matter of the right tool for the job because in some circumstances they can be helpful:
Having spent a few hours reading the report – obviously only a small part – I hope the current generation of soldiers do take note. More importantly I hope it is read by lots of politicians and they take Ken’s point that these people were not cut-out for crowd control. They ignored their rules of engagement and, after the event, closed ranks and lied about what had occurred. Never having served I do not know if this was just poor unit discipline or is it part of esprit the corp that you lie to cover for your mates. The report also looked at the arrests and came to the conclusion that the abuse of prisoners was institutionalised rather than specific to this incident. If this is how the troops were treating the locals it is little wonder it took so long to resolve. If it is typical, and ongoing in Afghanistan and elsewhere, then we will never win militarily or by COIN and should withdraw before we do any more harm.
At £190 million this has not been a cheap exercise but if we actually learn something form it I am happy to have contributed to it in a small way.
From Time, Northern Ireland: Bloody Sunday Inquiry Says Victims Were Innocent (15 Jun 2010):
From near the end:
Barf.Quote:
But the latest Bloody Sunday inquiry is not without its critics. Intended to only last a year, it took 12 to complete, at a cost of almost $295 million. Most of the money was spent on lawyers' fees. As Northern Ireland seeks to move on from decades of sectarian conflict, many have also questioned the merit of revisiting such a painful episode of its past.
Mike
It was needed. The actions of our troops were bad enough but the government of the day then rubbed salt in to the wound with the Widgery Inquiry. This one may have been costly and time consuming but reading it I have little doubt it is an honest attempt to find out what happened - which the first report was not. This is a dark episode in our history and Catholic community deserved the apology and a truthful report. The rest of us need the honesty if we do not want to risk simmering resentments leading to new round of 'the troubles'.
Yes the Good Friday Agreement. You are saying it was not a general amnesty?
Hay?Quote:
It will be interesting to see what the various Republican agendas in Northern Ireland will make from this.
Very interesting... and whom may I ask is behind this?Quote:
Of note, although it rarely makes the news, is that the levels of terrorist violence in Northern Ireland have (IMHO) now passed those seen in the 1990s and are approaching 1980s levels. They do not make the news because they do not have the Sein Feinn propaganda machine behind them and they have been largely ineffective in killing people (although marginally more effective in maiming). As ever though, with trial and error they are gaining in competence.
once upon a time, in 1967 in Detroit, the Paras were called in, showed professionalism, coolness and restraint - an outstanding performance for a non-gendarmerie unit. But, those Paras had one Ken White among them - so, all is explained. :D
Regards
Mike
-----------------
PS: Loved the 82nd Airborne poster, which is from the Battle of the Bulge for anyone who doesn't know the story. The 82nd and the 30ID (my dad's division) were tasked to box in the German advance in the northwest part of the salient - 82nd on west, 30ID on north.
Attachment 1117
I have a nonagenarian client who was with the 82nd there. He still is lively and puts the make on my paralegal when he comes in. As you say, Paras do what Paras do. :D
Bloody Sunday reminds me in some respects of the Kent State incident in 1969, when the Ohio National Guard opened fire during a disturbance on the university campus during protests against the U.S. incursion into Cambodia. All it takes is for one guy to open fire on a crowd and then have others join in to produce lots of casualties during a very brief period. The missteps or bad judgement of one side at a civil disturbance does not necessarily imply that virtue is on the other. If I recall correctly Army training for responding to civil disturbances, particularly regarding the loading of weapons, was said to have been revamped after Kent State.
I do not know about the current generation, but back in the 1980's those of us serving basically knew the whole story. We knew this was how NOT to do it, and most of the sentiment was "why shoot un-armed Civvies running away? That's not hard."
I have not read the report, but it has again been common knowledge within the British Army that the Battalion concerned "had issues" concerning discipline - otherwise what happened simply would not have occurred.Quote:
They ignored their rules of engagement and, after the event, closed ranks and lied about what had occurred. Never having served I do not know if this was just poor unit discipline or is it part of esprit the corp that you lie to cover for your mates.
Yes, you do lie to cover your mates. It's not right, but some time in uniform is pretty essential to understanding why.
Based on what I know, I do not believe it is, in theatre at the moment, but for where it has gone wrong, look at the British Army prisoner abuse allegations in Iraq.Quote:
If it is typical, and ongoing in Afghanistan and elsewhere, then we will never win militarily or by COIN and should withdraw before we do any more harm.
Prisoner handling is a specialist skill. It needs training.
I don't think so. Under the terms terrorists convicted get an early (immediate) release, so we can still prosecute terrorists for past crimes but it is not really achieving anything. Of course if the cease-fire goes then the early release goes. The Good Friday Agreement (GFA) does not apply to members of the security forces.
CIRA and RIRA, the 'Continuity' and 'Real' IRA respectively. Some hardline Republicans were against the GFA and went their own way, they have got better over the years and seem to be tapping into some PIRA expertise and stores. No strong polical support, but enough bored youths in Counties South Armargh, Fermanagh and Derry to keep things ticking over.
Apart from the fact that Republican violence has not finished, if we are not careful the next round of Troubles will come from an increasingly beleagured and embittered Loyalist community who feel sold out by the Good Friday Agreement.
Honesty cuts both ways, Martin McGuinness was interviewed in his capacity as OC Derry PIRA in the 70s and several well researched books have stated the both Mr Adams and Mr McGuinness were members of the PIRA 'Army Council'. If we want to reconcile communities then we need to reconcile the two Northern Irish communities to each other as well as recociling one of them to the British Government.
A more nuanced, short review of the Saville Report and interesting as it accepts some myths why have now been shown to be false. I do wonder how the report appears to push much of the blame so far down the army command chain. No doubt the author has had time to read the report volumes.
Link:http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourking.../bloody-sunday
http://www.aolnews.com/story/police-.../871411?cid=13Quote:
DUBLIN -Northern Ireland police came under live fire during a third straight night of Belfast unrest in scenes that a Catholic priest described Wednesday as "a Disney theme park for rioting." ... The Rev. Gary Donegan said violence that continued until 2 a.m. Wednesday in Ardoyne featured rioters aged 8 to 18 — backed by crowds of girls capturing the mayhem on their cell phones for posting on social networking Web sites.
"Recreational rioting is the term," the 46-year-old priest said. "It was like a Disney theme park for rioting. It was ludicrous." ...The priest said girls, many of them dressed for a night out — "At one stage it looked like a Milan catwalk," he quipped — had come to watch the boys riot. The boys in turn appeared determined to impress the girls with their bravery. He said alcohol and drug abuse fueled their dangerous behavior as police doused the crowd with jets from a water cannon.
Fantastic! We no longer have to film them for evidence purposes, they do it themselves! :DQuote:
." ... The Rev. Gary Donegan said violence that continued until 2 a.m. Wednesday in Ardoyne featured rioters aged 8 to 18 — backed by crowds of girls capturing the mayhem on their cell phones for posting on social networking Web sites.
Probably not on the wider news network is two sizeable viable devices in the last two weeks. One of which was in a house and an attempt to get police into the house (a 'come on'), and a second which blew up in situ but prematurely on a country road. Plus 4 rounds fired at a police patrol with a short barrelled weapon. All in the last 2 weeks and separate from the well publicised rioting.
It is likely to get worse before it get better. The N Ireland property bubble has burst and the economy depends heavily on public sector jobs (of which Britain expects to shed 750,000 in the next two years). With increased deprivation we can expect an increase in crime as well more extreme politics.
Can't believe what I see on TV about what abuse the police must be prepared to take and DO NOTHING! Now if I threw a petrol bomb at someone and it set them alight (I have a long list) I guess I would be up for attempted murder or at least assault GBH. Why don't the yobs on the streets of Northern Ireland not get held to the same standard?
So forget about the X-13 tazer shotguns (like from the Moat incident) and speak nicely to your good uncle Sam and see if he will sell/loan/give you some of these babies.
Active Denial System
"The ADS projects a focused beam of millimeter waves to induce an intolerable heating sensation on an adversary's skin, repelling the individual with minimal risk of injury."
Generally UK Police forces prefer to contain public order situations, preventing damage to property and minimising risk to life. They prefer a longer term solution which sees them contain the situation and then with things have died down they go in days and weeks later and arrest those involved using evidence they have gathered during the riots.
In the old days when the army supported the RUC we were often deployed to knock heads if things did get bad, allowing the RUC to keep their hands unsullied and mend fences later (Many a happy summer spent with the jocks skulking with intent in support of the RUC!). But again, there had to be risk to life or property for us to get involved. Where I was based (Londonderry) we just used to bottle them up in the 'Bogside' and let them vent there. They would throw petrol bombs we would fire baton rounds. We would go in to disperse only if they were trying to get into the city centre for pillage or trying to cross sectarian divides for pillage, arson and rape.
What is more ominous is this, reported in the Daily Telegraph:
Link:www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/northernireland/7896588/Sinn-Fein-are-yesterdays-men.htmQuote:
It was a brief verbal exchange that spoke volumes. By a burned-out car that still smouldered, its blackened bonnet strewn with broken bottles that the night before had been fashioned into lethal Molotov cocktails and hurled at police officers, the pair stood face to face, only inches apart. One, grey-haired and balding, 6ft 4in with a distinctly age-stooped gait, folded his arms across his chest and narrowed his eyes in a flinty glare. The other, a swaggering teenager in a hoodie, his face swathed in a Manchester United scarf to conceal his identity, stared straight back. "Shove off, old man," he said mockingly. "Sure, you sold out your community. Just so that the likes of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness could parade about in posh suits and sit up in Stormont. What do they care about the Ardoyne now? You lot don't speak for us any more. Why don't you just f––– off.''
It wasn't the response the older man, Bobby Storey, had expected. Nor the reaction to which he was accustomed. Storey, a veteran IRA man, a legendary godfather of terror in the nationalist heartland of north Belfast, is not a man many would challenge.
Known in paramilitary parlance as "The Enforcer", Storey served 18 years for gun attacks on the Army. In 1983 he was among 38 Provisionals who escaped from Northern Ireland's Maze prison – the largest jailbreak in British history. Maudlin republican ballads eulogise his terrorist exploits, and his portrait glares down from the gable walls of republican west Belfast.
In short, among the nationalist community, when Bobby Storey, in his trademark low, menacing voice, says jump, the required response is: "How high?"
Here, however, in the riot-scarred streets of Ardoyne, the young pretender in his hoodie and mask was far from intimidated. All week he had led locals, some as young as eight, in pitched battles against the police – hurling stones, bricks and home-made grenades.
Bristling with bravado, he jabbed a stubby finger into Storey's chest and told him: "We rule our own roost here, Storey. Back off. Nobody cares what you think."
This was not just the common confrontation of age and youth one witnesses in Northern Ireland's tribal sectarian strongholds. Instead this was the IRA's dissident offspring telling the veteran forefathers of Northern Ireland's Troubles that they no longer commanded respect. That their word was no longer law. That the day to which Sinn Féin's time-honoured slogan, Tiocfaidh ár lá ("Our day will come") refers had been and gone – and a new generation are preparing to have theirs.
Today, the republican men of violence who orchestrated the terror campaign that punctuated the Seventies and Eighties are respected ministers and MLAs (Members of the Legislative Assembly) in the Province's fledgling government. The men of war now speak the language of peace. Except the dissidents are not listening. And it is the shadowy "new-style" IRA who have whipped up passions among disaffected youngsters in north Belfast, where unemployment is still high and allegiances to a 32-county united Ireland are still an impassioned aim.
Leaders from the Real and Continuity IRA run regular training camps in counties Louth and Monaghan in Eire, where a new generation of terrorists eagerly learn the lessons and logistics of terrorism. As one senior security source points out: "We know the IRA dissidents are plotting a major bombing campaign to derail the peace process. And to do that they need to win over hearts and minds in the nationalist community. So they've come into Ardoyne to ferment unrest and dissent.
"Intelligence chiefs have warned ministers that splinter groups like the Real and Continuity IRA are on the verge of a wave of killings. We believe a new generation of republican fanatics are planning a campaign. The hardcore are in their twenties and they are building bombs from designs pioneered by the PIRA. Recent bombings, like the bridge at Cullyhanna, show they are overcoming their technical problems with detonators. Our big fear is an attempt to emulate the 1984 Brighton bomb attack. And those preparing for the Conservative conference in Birmingham in October have factored the threat into their security preparations."
Red Rat partial citation:Yes, on the mainland UK there has been a strategy and practice of containment and post-event arrests using CCTV, photos etc. This can work in some situations, partly as few in the crowd appear to consider the consequences of identication and predictably stern sentencing by the courts. Police forces across the mainland have used this, not always successfully as large numbers of rioters remain unknown; it probably best works with predictable crowds, notably football match day violence as the numbers are small and often very well known.Quote:
Generally UK Police forces prefer to contain public order situations, preventing damage to property and minimising risk to life. They prefer a longer term solution which sees them contain the situation and then with things have died down they go in days and weeks later and arrest those involved using evidence they have gathered during the riots.
For reasons that are not clear there has been a far more offensive strategy and practice for public disorder, often when political causes are involved, from the protests outside arms fairs to large-scale demos in London. This has led to much criticism, from across the spectrum and not the "usual suspects" e.g anti-hunting ban demo in London a few years ago, with baton charges, on a largely rural, conservative, white demo. The policing of the G8 protests in London being a cause celebre and the resulting report by the Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary (HMIC) documents this very well. The report is:http://www.derbyshire.police.uk/sei/s/760/f1120.pdf
There's also a KoW item on this, wider issue:http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/05/on-crowds-and-coin/
Yes, the police can contain or disperse and other options. What is the level of support they have, from the local community to the national level?
Turning to the short spasm of rioting in Northern Ireland, if the police (PSNI) had taken the non-containment route what support would they have had? It is apparent from previous incidents that "community leaders" and youth workers have been able to reduce the level of violence and numbers involved.
"Jocks"? Yes out of all the Brits that came out to Rhodesia the jocks as a group were nicely "aggressive". Perhaps it was the unintended consequence of Hadrian's and Antonine's walls that protected the jocks from the deleterious effects of enforced Roman civilization around 122-142 AD? If one was to recruit a force of independent units to take on the Taliban on equal terms I couldn't think you could do better than with a few thousand highland maniacs.
Rape? Must admit my ignorance in this out of NI. Wow, and the degree of prevalence?
Be aware the situation is not like the ANC in South Africa.
The ANC leadership fill parliament and government positions and pay lip service to everything that keeps international opinion sweet while the "Youth League" are total nutters behaving and saying the most outrageous things. The ANC leadership say they are just kids and will grow up in time while the general opinion is that the youth league are speaking and behaving the like the ANC leadership would love to still be doing. Maybe a similar situation in NI?
JMA cited:No, there is little similarity between the ANC and Provisional Sein Fein (PIRA). What we do have is history repeating itself, with nationalist supporters splitting over peace now and unification etc later -v- stay at war and we will get unification. The Provisionals split off from the Official IRA:Quote:
The ANC leadership fill parliament and government positions and pay lip service to everything that keeps international opinion sweet while the "Youth League" are total nutters behaving and saying the most outrageous things. The ANC leadership say they are just kids and will grow up in time while the general opinion is that the youth league are speaking and behaving the like the ANC leadership would love to still be doing. Maybe a similar situation in NI?
From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisi...epublican_ArmyQuote:
It emerged out of the December 1969 split of the Irish Republican Army due to differences over ideology and over how to respond to violence against the nationalist community.
Now the Provisionals face the rump of "let's fight on" and their campaign to recruit new supporters in Northern Ireland. It is quite clear there remains support in the Irish Republic.
and how many phone booths do these SIRA (Splinter IRA) supporters occupy in the Republic ?Quote:
from David
It is quite clear there remains support in the Irish Republic.
We have to work our way through from the start.
Irish Republican Army - Wiki. This divergent bunch (the Óglaigh na hÉireann) then split because of the Civil War, with the majority going with the Treaty Government and remaining the Óglaigh na hÉireann - the official Gaelic for the Irish Defense Forces:
Irish Republican Army (1922–1969), which didn't amount to much. Victor McLaglen in The Informer drew better reviews and much more in revenue and support.Quote:
The pro-treaty IRA soon became the nucleus of the new (regular) Irish National Army created by Collins and Richard Mulcahy. British pressure, and tensions between the pro- and anti-Treaty factions of the IRA, led to a bloody civil war, ending in the defeat of the anti-Treaty faction. On May 24, 1923, Frank Aiken, the (anti-treaty) IRA Chief-of-Staff, called a cease-fire. Many left political activity altogether, but a minority continued to insist that the new Irish Free State, created by the "illegitimate" Treaty, was an illegitimate state. They asserted that their "IRA Army Executive" was the real government of a still-existing Irish Republic. The IRA of the Civil War and subsequent organisations that have used the name claim lineage from that group, which is covered in full at Irish Republican Army (1922–1969).
Provisional Irish Republican Army, which brings us to David's point and to its offspring, 1986 Continuity IRA, and 1997 Real IRA.Quote:
In the 1960s the IRA once more came under the influence of left-wing thinkers, especially those such as Desmond Greaves active in the Connolly Association in London. This move to a class-based political outlook and the consequent rejection of any stance that could be seen as sectarian — including the use of IRA arms to defend the beleaguered Catholic communities of Belfast in the Northern Ireland riots of August 1969 — was to be one of the factors in the 1969 split between the Provisional IRA wing of the republican movement, with some subscribing to a traditional republican analysis of the situation while the others embraced Marxism.
The Provisional IRA embarked on a thirty year armed campaign against the British presence in Northern Ireland that claimed 1707 lives.[6] In 1997 it announced a ceasefire which effectively marked the end of its campaign. In 2005 it formally announced the end of its campaign and destroyed much of its weaponry under international supervision. The movement's political wing, Provisional Sinn Féin, is a growing electoral force in both Northern Ireland and the Republic.
The Official IRA mounted their own armed campaign in the Troubles up to 1972, when they called a ceasefire. However, their members on the ground engaged in some armed activities for the rest of the 1970s before effectively disbanding[7]. By the 1980s, they were an essentially political movement and distanced themselves from traditional republicanism, re-naming their political wing Sinn Féin the Workers Party in the Republic of Ireland in 1979 while in Northern Ireland they were known as Republican Clubs until 1981 and The Workers Party Republican Clubs until 1982 before both Northern and Southern sections became The Workers' Party in 1982.
So, we are dealing with splinter groups (CIRA, RIRA, etc.) of a splinter group (PIRA) of a splinter group (IRA 1922-1969) of a non-splinter group (IRA) - not much tradition there for substantial support in the Republic. I'd wager a quid that an unbiased poll in the Republic would show a majority against an actual takeover of the North - like right now today, not in some dim constitutional future. Who would want it and why ?
Nonetheless, I expect the North will continue to generate its young jerkoffs until the North is made part of the Republic. At that point, the young jerkoff will say FOAD to the Garda and Óglaigh na hÉireann - and the young jerkoff will meet the fate of Cathal Brugha.
Regards
Mike
JMM,
You partly cited my comment on:and asked:Quote:
support in the Irish Republic
I did not qualify or attempt to quantify the level of support in the Irish Republic, from this "armchair" I would speculate a few hundred who are prepared to assist directly, e.g. fund raising and a slightly larger audience who are only prepared to applaud. That is alas enough to keep the "hardliners" active.Quote:
how many phone booths do these SIRA (Splinter IRA) supporters occupy in the Republic ?
There is a very good book on the motivation of the Irish Republican movement, by a US journalist, 'Rebel Hearts; Journeys within the IRA's soul' by Kevin Toolis (Pub. 1995). What I learnt from that in particular was how the appeal of the 'fight' lived on in memories far stronger further away from Northern Ireland.
Steve Blair posted:Steve,Quote:
This is something that should be obvious based on the survival of groups like the RAF and Red Brigades. Sadly it doesn't take much to keep the wild-eyed splinter groups active and spun up enough to set bombs and whatever.
That is almost spooky as I am currently reading 'The Baader-Meinhof Complex' by Stefan Aust and it is a good read on small group radicalisation, let alone how the then modern state reacted. A longer review when finished.
We all too easily forget that splinter groups, even individuals like the Unabomber, can create mayhem and take time to dismantle - the Greek November 28 group comes to mind. For later see:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3299349.stm
In that sense we are lucky that splinter groups are so few, maybe excluding the Corsican separatists whose activities run and run on the island mainly.
This item could go elsewhere as it fits in several threads IMHO.
'Countering Terror or Counter-Productive? Comparing Irish and Muslim Experiences of Counter-insurgency Law and Policy'
Yes, some of the groups involved come from a particular strand of opinion. So the activities of paramilitaries appear rarely - on a quick read. Making such comparisons are not unknown, in the academic world and amongst community groups.Quote:
This report is a record of, and reflection on, two days of discussions that took place in Belfast in June 2009 between a group of Irish human rights and community activists and political ex-prisoners, ... and representatives of a number of Muslim groups working on similar issues today.
(from the summary)The aim of the event was to explore comparisons between Irish and Muslim experiences of the impact of counter-terror measures. Three key themes were established; The Nature of Counter-insurgency Law and Policy Experiencing Counter-insurgency Policies: ommunities, Prisoners, Families and Young People Counter-insurgency, Campaigning and Communities. The idea to hold such a meeting emerged after initial conversations about the potential value of bringing together people from the North of Ireland and Muslim communities in Britain who had experience in dealing with the impact and consequences at a community evel of state anti-terror (or counter-insurgency) strategies.
Link:http://www.ihrc.org.uk/publications/...law-and-policy
Red Rat, Post 12, stated in part:The police (PSNI) have started their arrests for the violent disorder two weeks ago:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-10791364Quote:
Generally UK Police forces prefer to contain public order situations, preventing damage to property and minimising risk to life....then with things have died down they go in days and weeks later and arrest those involved using evidence they have gathered during the riots.
Referring to a juvenile arrested and at court opposing bail:Quote:
A detective sergeant who said he could connect him with the offences told the court: This individual I would say, having examined CCTV footage, would be one of the most prominent individuals within that riot. From the very start right through until the early hours of the morning his activities were wide-ranging from attacking police officers with poles, pipes and other materials to the hijacking of the vehicle which was set alight.
Comments made after another bomb and criticism of the lack of intelligence on the 'new' enemy in 'old bottles'; link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-tactics.html
The bombing:On the criticism:Quote:
The fact that police received a warning that a device was left in one area and a device actually exploded in another has similarities to the Omagh bombing that we would not like to see repeated.
Elsewhere some, hopefully good news:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-10984738Quote:
It is time for everyone to face up to some inconvenient political truths about this violence. It is now very clear that MI5 is not up to the task of leading intelligence-gathering in the north. The SDLP believes we need an aggressive, high-profile, all-Ireland intelligence-gathering operation based on the bond of trust which has grown between police and public.
As former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair's memoirs sell well amidst the vairiety of reviews is this rather pithy comment on his part in the Northern Ireland peace process:http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourking...-09-06%2012:17
What struck me was the final comment:Citing the SDLP leader Seamus MallonSorry to be so cynical or critical that sounds like an Afghan exit strategy.Quote:
In reality his whole strategy in terms of resolution of the Northern Ireland problem—I don’t use the term peace process—was “who do I buy and who do I sell”?
From ICSR @ Kings College London, a new paper on the situation in Northern Ireland:Link to report:http://icsr.info/paper/return-of-the...-republicanismQuote:
On Thursday, BBC Newsnight featured an exclusive report based on ICSR’s latest publication, Return of the Militants: Violent Dissident Republicanism, by our Associate Fellow, Dr Martyn Frampton.
According to the report, which is released today, the danger posed by groups such as the Real IRA and Continuity IRA is at its greatest level in over a decade, and is likely to increase. In the recent National Strategic Defence and Security Review, ‘residual terrorism linked to Northern Ireland’ was identified as a Tier One risk to national security. MI5 has also raised the official threat level from dissident republican groups from ‘moderate’ to ‘substantial’ and warned against the real possibility of a strike on the British mainland, in addition to the ongoing threat posed to the police, army and security services in Northern Ireland.
Return of the Militants is the most authoritative and comprehensive attempt to address the recent upsurge of violent republicanism to date. It analyses the origins and the nature of the threat posed by violent dissidents, provides a timeline of recent dissident republican activities, and introduces the various groups involved. Drawing on the expert testimony of former security service personnel, the report also examines the changing security environment and evaluates potential responses to the increase of the threat.
Link to a nine minute BBC Newsnight report:http://www.youtube.com/user/ICSRLond.../1/AUAeQl0RZlg
Approx 110 attacks in 2009.
180 plus attacks this year and counting.
For those who know the history of 'the Troubles' the same places are cropping up; West Belfast, Londonderry, S Armagh.
History repeating itself. Mainstream Irish Republicanism comes to terms, becomes part of the establishment. Fringe element dislike the terms, proclaim themselves the 'true Republicans' and carry on the struggle.
JMA asked:I expect there is an official definition, but here goes. Attack will include: bombs, sniping, possibly armed robbery for funds, but not the preparations. Not sure about bomb hoaxes and civil disorder / rioting.Quote:
For my edification, what constitutes an "attack" by definition?
Might even be a military definition back from "The Troubles" and not the criminal law definition.
There probably is an official definition but the stats I use look at the following:
Bombs (including: UVIEDs, RCIED, proxy and VOIED and ranging from small (pipe bombs) to large (500lb culvert bombs and bigger)).
Shoots
Hoaxes and criminality (even if conducted by Republican groupings) are not included. Rioting and paramilitary style 'civil-action' beatings are also not included.