Deja vu, all over again ...
Or, can one find truth in Pravda ?
Just the headlines, without leads - full articles linked at link
Quote:
Georgian troops burn South Ossetian refugees alive
[10.08.2008; today's lead]
....
Putin: Georgia’s actions are criminal, whereas Russia’s actions are absolutely legitimate
09.08.2008
....
War between Russia and Georgia orchestrated from USA
09.08.2008
...
Russian tanks enter South Ossetia to oust Georgian troops
08.08.2008
http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/
And whose news in Izvestia ?
Quote:
Russia's Gazprom sells stake in Izvestia newspaper
Wed May 21, 2008 12:02pm EDT
MOSCOW, May 21 (Reuters) - Russian gas monopoly Gazprom ... has sold its majority stake in the Izvestia newspaper to a firm linked to a businessman reported to be a close ally of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.
http://www.reuters.com/article/compa...89780820080521
Finally, the third member of the deja vu triangle
Quote:
ITAR-TASS
[10.08.2008; today's lead]
Tskhinvali totally cleared of Georgia troops - peacekeepers HQ.
Tskhinvali has been totally cleared of Georgian troops that are being forced towards the administrative border of South Ossetia with Georgia, aide to the commander of the Joint Peacekeeping Force (JPKF) Vladimir Ivanov told Itar-Tass...
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?GroupID=146
-------------------------
Sorry to interrupt the White-Fuchs debate. Nothing to add to that (despite tongue biting on BoP).
South Ossetia is about the size of my Copper Country (4 county area, 50K+ pop.) - just to provide some perspective of the real estate involved. We do have people in Georgia - and that does mean something.
Hey Ken, based on Fuchs' map, it looks like the Georgians north of Tskhinvali didn't occupy the high ground - no Puller in command there.
Hey Ken ... Possibly, GA was occupying areas
occupied by Georgian ethnic populations (1/5 to 1/3 of So. Ossetia pop., depending on source).
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/...tia-Glance.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War
http://www.forcedmigration.org/guides/fmo001/fmo001.pdf
Insert to Fuchs' map showing (orange) areas controlled by Georgia 7 Aug looks more like an patchwork, possibly following river valleys (seems so, from SO2 map below).
That insert has some resemblence to the agency's ethnic map for Caucasian region, but the latter is at too small a scale to match exact areas in the insert.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Im...sus-ethnic.jpg
Here is a blowup of the Georgian-controlled areas (ultimate source ?)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...s/d/d1/SO2.jpg
The map (post by kaur #40) has the villages identified (Geo vs Oss). Looks like a GA march north to the Roki Tunnel would have been an uphill climb through unfriendly (Oss) mountain country. Remind you of another war a long time ago ?
So, perhaps the GA deployed in an effort to protect their own by being there - a noble political thought, but maybe not the best plan to repel an invasion. Wasn't ARVN strung out something like that at the end ?
Which goes to prove that, if one (JMM) has no experience in an area; and has incomplete maps re: troops, population, etc. - one be a-guessin big time in reaching any military or political conclusion.
PS1: Rus Maps (link by kaur # 38) has topo maps (slow dl) + a cute little Velo Gal for you youngsters. Also has an English page linked, with same Velo Gal.
http://www.topomaps.eu/
PS2: For anyone out there who might be a cold war lover, multi-beaked birds can still fly on both sides.
All the President's Men ?
Pop in and take a gander at President Medvedev's working meetings and conferences :rolleyes:
Beginning of Working Meeting with Minister of Internal Affairs Rashid Nurgaliev
August 11, 2008
The Kremlin, Moscow
Quote:
DMITRY MEDVEDEV: Rashid Gumarovich, I have received information, and you have probably also heard this, that the Georgian authorities are forcibly detaining Russian citizens on Georgian territory. This is, of course, in complete violation of international law. I do not know why they are doing this. Maybe they think they can use these people as a human shield. This is a completely unacceptable situation.
I also want to say - and I want you to take this under your personal control – that all citizens of foreign states, who are legally in Russia, must not be subjected to any kind of discrimination and can remain in Russia in accordance with the agreements that our country has with the countries from which these people have come. Supervision of these matters is the Ministry of Internal Affairs’ responsibility and I ask you to ensure it is carried out.
RASHID NURGALIEV: Dmitry Anatolyevich, we issued just such instructions three days ago, when Georgia launched its aggression against South Ossetia. We immediately sent out precisely these instructions throughout the Southern Federal District, given that this is the part of the country where the biggest numbers of people from Georgia reside, and we also gave specific instructions to the Federal Migration Service to monitor these matters throughout the Russian Federation.
We understand that the people are not to blame for this aggression and we will therefore do everything we can to uphold the law and protect the rights and interests of citizens living in Russia or present on our territory.
We have ensured public order in the Republic of North Ossetia-Alania over these last three days. Registered crimes have dropped two-fold and there has been a four-fold drop in the number of serious crimes.
All the necessary conditions are now in place for providing humanitarian assistance to the Republic of South Ossetia. In particular, a column set out directly for Tskhinvali at 5 a.m. this morning, and an extra 37 KAMAZ vehicles have been made available for transporting humanitarian aid - food, medicines and medical equipment – that will be used on the ground to help people.
DMITRY MEDVEDEV: Good, keep working, keep it under your control and report to me periodically on the public order situation in North Ossetia, in the North Caucasus in general and in the country overall, of course.
RASHID NURGALIEV: I will.
:eek:
Much more at this link...
Well, yeah but I don't think it's gonna
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wm
Great political theatrics--each speaker reads his script well.
be an Oscar contender...
Quote:
...I am amazed that the Russians still play at these "Potemkin village" sham displays.
Old habits die hard...
Looking beyond the Obvious?
Some folks have pointed to this as a quid pro qou for Kosovo and as a direct lesson to Georgia wrt to joining NATO.
One might wonder how much of this activity on the part of the Russians (particularly the new reports of incursions from Abkhazia) is pointed at the Ukraine--both wrt to its NATO membership aspirations and to the lease on port facilities in Sevastapol that expires 9 years hence in 2017. Russia's warmwater port issue is a long standing sore point.
Also the purported use of Cossacks is an interesting twist, given that sizeable remnants of Cossack "hordes" exist in both the Ukraine and Kazakhstan. The Russians have used an appeal to Cossack "nationalism" in times past to help them in their foreign affairs.
Has the Great Game moved from the "roof of the world" to the mountains on the other side of the Caspian Sea?
Yes, I've noticed mouthpieces from
both fringes are blathering. Saying little to nothing of import as usual but just trying to stir up hate and discontent. I keep swearing I'll ignore them like most but alas, I fear that I'm addicted to pointing out how silly they are. It's a terrible burden... :(
As to your germane questions, I have answers:
We don't know but there's a lot of guessing going on mostly based on fragmentary information, misinformation and disinformation.
Few.
This is whats throwing me off
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ken White
both
We don't know but there's a lot of guessing going on mostly based on fragmentary information, misinformation and disinformation.
Few.
No matter how I look at it, so far whats going on seems to be focused on first order effects and the possible or at least more likely second or third order effects don't seem to pass the "what in it for me" test:confused:
Unless they actually think the rest of the "world" is too busy to be able to effectively deal with it.
Baltic states turn on Russia
The presidents of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, together with Poland, issued a joint statement at the weekend warning that the Georgian conflict would be a credibility “litmus test” for Nato and the EU.
Quote:
The Baltic states, past victims of Kremlin attacks, have called on the European Union to suspend its drive for closer relations with Russia after its invasion of Georgia.
“We have to review our policy. Can we consider a partner a country who behaves like this?” President Toomas Hendrik Ilves of Estonia said in an interview. He added: “It’s time to stop sticking our head in the sand.”
The presidents also criticise Nato’s failure to give Georgia a timetable for membership earlier this year: “We regret that the not granting of Nato’s Membership Action Plan (MAP) to Georgia was seen as a green light for aggression in the region,” their statement said.
Hat tips to Meatball One !