No point in rehashing opinions, mine or yours.
Reference to David's call was with respect to this statement by me:
Quote:
from JMM
UK is similar to US. The differences favor / unfavor perps are probably a push; except that the UK has more EU conventions, etc. that they take seriously - and I think, make the job tougher as to terrs. David has the final call on UK issues.
If I am wrong on UK issues, I expect David to correct me because he has more expertise. Frankly, it had nothing to do with you or your opinions.
Then it probably didn't need to be said in a comment
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jmm99
Reference to David's call was with respect to this statement by me:...If I am wrong on UK issues, I expect David to correct me because he has more expertise. Frankly, it had nothing to do with you or your opinions.
nominally addressed to the three quotes from moi, Eh? ;)
As for rehashing opinions, your or mine; certainly true. I doubt we're entertaining anyone or that either of us is learning a thing...:wry:
9/11 Report: quick comment
Legal Barriers to Information Sharing: The Erection of a Wall Between Intelligence and Law Enforcement Investigations Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
I have just read the document, much of which IMHO has appeared before, possibly in parts; rightly the conclusion needs to be read - as a lesson learnt I hope! Yes, it is written in a prose and style that some will find difficult.
Good catch.
davidbfpo
Well I finally got around to reading it JMM...
and the Falkenrath too. :)
For the first, the last paragraph seems to have little correlation to what the author was writing. If anything, it shows the great difficulties the admin is going to have if they really want to use the Federal criminal process to handle terrorists. It may crimp our intel methods once that road is taken and it clearly slows, in fact did slow our decision making processes when time was precious. I'd disagree with the author's premise.
As an aside, after reading this, I wonder if there will be a time where terrorists will send some of their ilk to US law schools to become their own "mob" attorneys. There are clearly some seams to pick here and a lawyer could help them. With the admin's recent decision to emphasize the courts, this may be an unintended consequence, and a new weapon to be "acquired" by terror organizations. If the mob and drug cartels can do it, so can they now that they may end up in the courts.
As for the second article I'm depressed I didn't get a chance to see that. Quite, quite interesting for me, especially as some of my work got brought up in it (not me personally, but my work ). And I'd have loved to have pinged him on it because I disagree with his position (I'll leave you to guess what I am talking about. :)
That said, I thought he made some good cautioning arguments of the second hand effects that may result from using the federal courts. I hadn't seen the effect on law enforcement resources articulated like that before.
Minneapolis 'home' of radicalization?
A fascinating NYT article on the home grown radicalized Somali youth from Minneapolis, who are reported to have left for Somalia and an active part in the violent Jihad: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/us...pagewanted=all
It has all the ingredients of the process - as the NYPD report illustrated.
The FBI are investigating and the community itself has taken some action, e.g. parents hiding children's (US) passports.
davidbfpo
The USA is different: FBI investigations
Thanks to a vigilant US press watcher: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/29/us...l.html?_r=2&hp and linked is a FBI December 2008 'Domestic Investigations Current Operations Guide', obtained in a FOI court case and has large parts blanked out: http://documents.nytimes.com/the-new...-the-f-b-i#p=1
Too large, 269 pgs, to readily absorb on a fine autumn afternoon. So try this;
Quote:
“It raises fundamental questions about whether a domestic intelligence agency can protect civil liberties if they feel they have a right to collect broad personal information about people they don’t even suspect of wrongdoing,” said Mike German, a former F.B.I. agent who now works for the American Civil Liberties Union.
Interesting that this domestic issue has similar echoes in the UK, not over invesigations, but preventative activity by public agencies to stop the flow of recriuits to violent extremism.
davidbfpo
The USA is different: LAPD on surveillance
Slightly dated as this was a speech on 22nd October 2009, entitled Los Angeles Police Department's Counterterrorism and Criminal Intelligence Bureau "Counterterrorism and Crime Fighting in Los Angeles": http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/h...LAPD-Stein.pdf (Hat tip http://counterterrorismblog.org/ ).
Amidst the speech is a section on Legitimacy and Constitutionality and
Quote:
Legitimacy and intelligence are equally important tools for U.S. law enforcement to use in counterterrorism efforts. Legitimacy starts with an organizational knowledge and pride in operating constitutionally and within the law. The need for transparency - being perceived to be and authentically honoring this principle - in intelligence and counterterrorism activities cannot be understated. Taking great care to ensure that intelligence and enforcement operations are narrowly targeted against terrorist cells determined to go operational is critical.
Quote:
The hardware of surveillance --CCTV cameras, license plate readers, "rings of steel" - which has become widespread despite a demonstrable lack of effectiveness in crime prevention or solution is less compatible with the freedoms and privacies Americans expect. Those methods, designed to fill a gap in law enforcement capabilities, are the worst of all worlds when compared with proper intelligence gathering; they are intrusive - despite the legalistic arguments that there should be limited expectations of privacy in public spaces; they are without question damaging to the freedoms of expression and speech that are constitutionally enshrined (unless you are of the persuasion that authorities should be the uninvited guest at the party whenever they choose to join in); they fail the test of logic (can cameras and license plate readers effectively stop secret plans?); they turn on its head the value systems we hold dear because like it or not, their placement speaks for itself -- they enshrine property and capital above human life.
Coming from a police officer in CT this is fascinating and shows how different the USA is from the UK on the use of mass surveillance, notably CCTV. Admittedly CCTV is invariably post-incident and may act as a deterrent. This is regular debate in the UK, albeit on the fringes and in some surprising places, like a conservative paper - The Daily Telegraph.
davidbfpo
Plotters at home (USA) grading the threat
In recent weeks it appears that a series of un-connected 'home grown' plots to attack targets in the USA have been revealed. The first article suggests a way of grading threats: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=114343626 Note the reference to the Zazi plot (Denver to NYC) having a direct link and communications with AQ. Hence the assessment this was the most serious threat since 9/11.
There is a good descriptive piece on the Zazi plot: http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscel...verArrests.pdf This IMHO lacks a good analysis and Bruce Hoffman has provided that - if wanted please PM (no link found for a recent lecture he gave at Oxford University).
Al-Amriki - sealed indictment
The indictment (one probably exists) is still sealed - so, the actual facts and charges are not known. There has been a good deal of media speculation about this case. Until al-Amriki is captured and returned to the States, speculation is what we are likely to know - except for his media efforts in Somalia if they continue.
Zazi case not that threatening?
A more unusual review of the Zazi case:http://www.juancole.com/2009/11/muel...his-is-it.html
Quote:
Zazi allegedly spent the better part of a year trying to concoct the bomb he had supposedly learned how to make.
Mueller also cites an academic whose work I recommend:
Quote:
It follows that any terrorism problem within the United States principally derives from homegrown people like Zazi, often isolated from each other, who fantasize about performing dire deeds. Penn State’s Michael Kenney has interviewed dozens of officials and intelligence agents and analyzed court documents, and finds homegrown Islamic militants to be operationally unsophisticated, short on know-how, prone to make mistakes, poor at planning, and severely hampered by a limited capacity to learn.
The cited work of Kenney's is around a hundred pages, so yet to read fully: http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/226808.pdf
Yes, I know Juan Cole and Mueller are not universally loved.
From one of my favourite blogsites:http://www.schneier.com/blog/
Quote:
(Note written in 2007)Terrorism is a real threat, and one that needs to be addressed by appropriate means. But allowing ourselves to be terrorized by wannabe terrorists and unrealistic plots -- and worse, allowing our essential freedoms to be lost by using them as an excuse -- is wrong.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't have all the facts in any of these cases. None of us do. So let's have some healthy skepticism. Skepticism when we read about these terrorist masterminds who were poised to kill thousands of people and do incalculable damage. Skepticism when we're told that their arrest proves that we need to give away our own freedoms and liberties. And skepticism that those arrested are even guilty in the first place.
davidbfpo
The Somali homegrown threat
From this across the water vantage point the tiny exodus of US born Somali male youths to Somalia appears to have "fallen off the radar", although I know Bruce Hoffman reminds audiences here the exodus is part of a worrying trend in the USA.
Quote:
On November 23, federal prosecutors in the United States unsealed indictments against members of a group of Minneapolis natives accused of being at the heart of a cell sending men and boys to fight with al-Shabaab, a radical Islamist movement in Somalia with close ties to al-Qaeda.
...the role of a former fighter in the recruitment of others highlights the risk of such individuals returning home.
Using that and other open sources Raffaello Pantucci has added a commentary:
http://raffaellopantucci.wordpress.c...ihad/#more-181
Foreigners and suicide in Somalia
An interesting addenda to this is why is it that there are so many foreigners who appear to get involved in suicide attacks in Somalia? Are they simply more zealous? or is this some tactic?
Updated on theme and on Europhobe
Quote:
Originally Posted by
europhobe
An interesting addenda to this is why is it that there are so many foreigners who appear to get involved in suicide attacks in Somalia? Are they simply more zealous? or is this some tactic?
I am sure the motivation aspect of suicide bombing was covered on the main, if not only thread on that topic: http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=2304
Have a look there and give a thought to providing some introductory remarks, within privacy and OPSEC; many here like to know what lies behind the posts and it can be on your profile or in the 'Hail & Farewell' thread.
IIRC in Iraq at one point many suicide bombers were not Iraqis and in the Lebanon it was inter-denominational locals.
Zazi case nearly concluded
Quote:
On Feb. 22, Afghan native Najibullah Zazi pled guilty to conspiring to use weapons of mass destruction, conspiring to commit murder in a foreign country, and providing material support to a terrorist organization. Arrested in September, he now faces life in prison. Zazi and his associates -- two of whom were charged on Feb. 25 -- had allegedly planned to bomb targets in New York City.
The plea deal marks a victory for Attorney General Holder, who said that "the criminal justice system has proved to be an invaluable weapon for disrupting plots and incapacitating terrorists, one that works in concert with the intelligence community and our military".
From:http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...02/25/the_lwot
Time for JMM to leap in again...
2 quick points (for his consideration): (1) Frank Keating, formerGov of OK and former DOJ official argued in an op ed that the arrest of Abdulmutallab took place in the air before he entered the US and therefore he was not entitled to Miranda rights. (2) The SCOTUS just accepted a case based on a provision of the Patriot Act which makes material aid (including advice on now to negotiate peace) to any DOS designated terrorist org a crime.
On #2 I have to problems with the law as currently interpreted: How can we define material assistance so broadly? And, the DOS designation has no appeal nor does it only affect terrorist orgs. Caught up in that was the denial of a visa to the US to one of the key FMLN leaders who negotiated peace with the GOES just because State had once designated the FMLN a terrorist org.
Cheers
JohnT
The rising threat of home grown extremism in US
A BBC TV report on the five US-Pakistanis who left for the Jihad and were arrested in Pakistan, under the title 'The rising threat of home grown extremism in US' and a chunky quote:
Quote:
Five US citizens accused of plotting jihad, attempting to join Al-Qaeda and planning terrorist attacks are due to appear in court in Pakistan's Punjab province on Tuesday. Peter Marshall considers whether a lack of opportunity for open debate in the US might have led these young Muslims to extremism.
When five US students were reported missing in November last year, their relatives had no inkling they had left the country. Yet nine days later the young men had turned up on the other side of the world in deep trouble.
So how did these young men go from quiet lives in a Virginia suburb to terrorism charges and a prison cell in Pakistan in little more than a week?
Link:
A view from across the water
Jedburgh,
A good catch the CSIS paper, although I note many of the cited examples have featured here - in other threads. Descriptive part aside tackling the Jihadist narrative is acknowledged to be key and then IMHO is not grasped.
I do wonder if the 'home grown threat' has just become more visible. IIRC there was a period when this threat was far greater, during the Vietnam War era with almost daily bombings and the militia movement's antics (including Oklahoma City '95).
Zazi to Pakistan via Manchester?
Refer to Post No.12 for the original report of a link between the Zazi plot and arrests in the Manchester & Liverpool.
Those arrested and none were charged with terrorism offences, bar one who is a UK citizen, are now subject of proceedings before an immigration tribunal (SIAC):
With the headline:
Quote:
Al-Qaeda came within days of terror attack on Britain last year, court hears. An alleged al-Qaeda terrorist cell arrested in the North West was within days of launching an attack on Britain a senior officer in MI5 has told a tribunal.
Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...urt-hears.html
Militia Charged With Plotting to Murder Officers
Militia Charged With Plotting to Murder Officers
Quote:
In an indictment against the nine unsealed on Monday, the Justice Department said they were part of a group of apocalyptic Christian militants who were plotting to kill law enforcement officers in hopes of inciting an antigovernment uprising, the latest in a recent surge in right-wing militia activity.
The court filing said the group, which called itself the Hutaree, planned to kill an unidentified law enforcement officer and then bomb the funeral caravan using improvised explosive devices based on designs used against American troops by insurgents in Iraq.
I have a hard time to fit this in, but it sounds rather dangerous than mere idiotic. Any thoughts on that matter?
Firn
Comments from over the ocean
Firn,
This reported plot does fit in with open source comments, some of which are on the Law Enforcement thread.
It will be interesting when in the court documents are in the public domain how the plot was discovered, especially if the group were infiltrated by law enforcement.
In contrast most extreme right wing plots here are discovered by chance encounters with the police, along some investigations, although there is a history of infiltration years ago.