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Isn't there a wrestling sport in Afghanistan?
Maybe wrestling could be introduced as some kind of duel for honour.
Whoever feels offended could allowed to try to humiliate his offender in a public fight.
In cases of actual offending actions, our superior officer could order our offender to lose the fight.
I know, a military bureaucracy wouldn't even come close to imagine to institute such a thing.
Disruptive thinking ... I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuchs
I actually believe something along this line may be what is required.
Well, Nazif is an Uzbek, so of course he would say that. ;) As a non-expert on such things I labor under the impression that a big part of the appeal of Karzai for the West was the package deal of a Pashtun head of government (to placate Afghanistan’s majority ethnic group) with acceptably moderate (by Western standards) political leanings. A formulation like that doesn’t take into account the fact that there is often factionalism within ethnic groups, as is the case with the Pastun.Quote:
Originally Posted by carl
Again, my impression as a non-expert.
Ganulv: Uzbekian (spell check tells me that is not a word but if I use enough maybe I can make it one) chauvinism may have something to do with his observation but it seems to fit the very broad historical outline.
Curmudgeon and Fuchs and anybody else:
Do either one of you know if these types of murders have been committed against Indian or Turkish troops and trainers in Afghanistan? It would be interesting to see that data if it exists at all. It would be interesting not from the standpoint of religion but to see if non-western troops are provoking the same reactions.
Also it has been my experience and observation that the most important thing in not pissing off the locals in other countries isn't knowledge of the cultural mores and practices, nor even knowledge of the language. The most important thing is that you conduct yourself, for lack of a better word, as a gentleman. Respectful attitude, friendlyness (sic), punctiliousness about courtesy, restraint etc are the most important things. If the locals see you acting like that they will cut you a tremendous amount of slack on all the gaffes you WILL make and teach you how not to make them again. In other words, you have to conduct yourself in another person's country as you would conduct yourself as a guest in another person's house.
Given the culture of the American military, of which I know only a little, can that be inculcated into the 20 year olds by the 30 year olds? I know people can do it, the Gurkas I've read are real good at that. But can the American military do that as of this date?
I have no statistics, but I expect that whatever statistics exist would lack statistic significance because of the rather small quantities (personnel x years) of such troops there.Quote:
Originally Posted by carl
I saw Americans, Germans, and Italians. Did not see any Turks or Indians.
The report cited is pretty interesting.
A crisis of trust and cultural incompatibilityQuote:
ANSF members recalled a rather large number of social altercations that they self- reported as near-fratricide murder incidents (N = 14). These often entailed perceptions of U.S. Soldiers disrespecting them or civilians (especially by cursing), where they deemed a home search as a theological violation, or where Afghan women were not perceived as being accorded privacy and/or proper respect (often, this meant not being seen at all). These findings add further credence to the concern that fratricide-murder risks have become fairly common within the last nineteen months, and often stem from personal and social altercations and cultural clashes rather than from insurgent infiltration.
So if these things were the cause the assumption would be that Turks or Indians (at least Muslim Indians) would not make these mistakes.
I get the impression from the report that there was more depth to what was going on ... that the ANSF were suffering from a lack of pride in themselves and their social status. If they had to stand by as American's did things they felt strongly were wrong while the people they were supposed to be protecting begged them to help, then it is easy to see how the resentment at their own inability could turn to rage. I could be projecting, but the report is at least worth scanning.
Carl,
In regards to your "gentlemen" comment:
emphasis in originalQuote:
ANSF members further remarked that they thought U.S. Soldiers were uncouth and ignorant in the proper mannerism of Afghan cultural behaviors, particularly Pashtun (this study was completed in a largely Pashtun region). They found their lack of modesty infuriating. They often stated that when they tried to correct U.S. Soldiers’ behaviors, they were reproached through verbal abuse, insults and shouted profanities, or were simply ignored, with the soldiers continuing with the same obnoxious behaviors. Participants often complained that they have had their fill with such abrasive personalities and offensive and vulgar behaviors and that only their orders not to take action has prevented more serious confrontations with U.S. Soldiers. Some said that retraining those that commit these offenses would do no good; that they were born with personality defects that lack decency. These numerous complaints across focus groups indicate that vastly improved cultural sensitivity and human relations (consideration of others) education programs need to be implemented for pre-deployment training as well as during regular ongoing training. Instruction should include how offensive arrogance, insults, bullying and profanity are to Afghans. Leadership at all levels must enforce these standards of conduct. It also seems quite obvious that certain personality types are not suitable for fulfilling the requirements of a counter-insurgency strategy. Those manifesting the abrasive characteristics cited in this study cause great harm with ANSF and Afghan civilian relations; they do not contribute to the mission, they jeopardize it. Therefore, if satisfactory ‘COIN attitude’ adjustments (i.e., a civil demeanor) cannot be instilled during training, then such soldiers should not be deployed. (Recruiting standards addressing such personality traits might also be implemented.) They will be and have been a liability. It only takes the actions of a very few of these types to completely negate everyone else’s work.
What's the share of Muslims in the Indian army?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon
Their main threat is Muslim Pakistan, so Muslim units would probably be ill-motivated while mixed troops would be not very cohesive.
The border with China could be guarded by Muslim Indian army troops, but said border is mountainous just as the critical sections of the border with Pakistan.
Furthermore, "'Muslim' customs barely exist at all. What people perceive as 'Muslim' customs are usually regional / ethnical customs whose more oppressive parts are being 'justified' by reference to religion.
Lots of people in Africa believe you need to cut off genitals from girls because of Muslim faith or they need to hide their faces when neither is true. Ironically, there's often a neighbouring ethnic with the same religion and different if not mirrored customs. Some tribes for example think that covering the face is a male privilege (IIRC the Imuhagh aka Touaregs).
Besides, what would protect our occupation troops from the Muslim Indian sensibilities if the custom incompatibility was really about spiritual issues? ;)
Fuchs
Good point. My own ignorance showing.
What is "murder" in an insurgency?Quote:
Originally Posted by carl
Is it murder when we shoot a kid off his motorcycle for failing to slow down when we flash a light at him?
Is it murder when a head of household rushes to see who is invading his home with an old Russian single-shot shotgun in hand, only to be cut in half by the lead man of a team looking for some HVT?
Is it murder when an IED blows up non-combatants of any ilk?
Comfortable civilian peacetime constructs of law and justice do not readily apply. To write off even most of these Green on Blue events as murders of individual and personal purpose and intent is, IMO, naive at best, and intentionally disingenuous at worst.
They should be considered as yet another powerful metric of the inappropriate nature of our actions and the unlikelihood that current approaches and polices can produce the results we hope for.
Bob:
Nice stump speechifying. You know what we are all talking about even if you don't approve and want to steer things in another direction.
Carl raises a good point on the details of ISAF deaths; are the non-Western ISAF contributors, like Turkey (1300 men currently, there since 2003) and the very separate, now gone, Indian contingent suffering too?
Wiki shows fourteen Turkish deaths, none from "green on blue", in fact none from hostilities:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaliti...in_Afghanistan and http://icasualties.org/OEF/Index.aspx
Neither show "green on blue" deaths separately alas.
It appears the para-military Indian contingent had two deaths - when guarding the Kabul Embassy and none from the two deployed companies:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Tibetan_Border_Police
Fuchs:
I have another question. Some of the displaced persons that my Mom knew and worked with here in the US in the 10 years or so after WWII said German troops were much better behaved than American troops. (This is not counting reprisals and thing like that.) They said that in the normal course of events they preferred having German troops in the area. I think I read that elsewhere also but can't remember where.
Do you know if that is true? If it is, did specific training cover that or was it just a part of the overall system of discipline and training?
The Wehrmacht grew to about nine million men, plus Waffen-SS half a million or more. Both were large enough to be bound to have both good and bad apples among their ranks.Quote:
Originally Posted by carl
Moreover, the quality of a military unit is largely being determined by its commander. There's no reason to believe that an overall poorly-reputed army hasn't some nice units and no reason to believe that an overall well-reputed army hasn't some really stinking bad apple units.
So an entirely well-mannered unit was probably the consequence of fine and well-intentioned leadership of that unit. The same applies to an entirely bad unit.
Military organisations are highly authoritarian, and lots of psychological experiments (edit: example) have shown that many humans are incredibly obedient even to fake authority. Add in the power of enforcement of orders that a military bureaucracy has and it's easily visible how a commander can shape a unit to either evil or well-mannered. It's even possible within few weeks if the unit is a reservist unit or had previously been rather neutral on the good/evil scale.
Last but not least, Nazi ideology (which was increasingly fed to troops beginning in 1942 because of the harshness of warfare in the East and possibly because the Wehrmacht had to compete with the expanding Waffen-SS for political favour) did not treat all foreign nationalities the same. The Dutch, English, Danish and Norwegians were considered almost equals, while even the allied Hungarians were looked down at (by ideologues) as supposed descendants of the Huns.
That being said, the most likely candidate for well-reputed German units were probably Luftwaffe troops, for they did not act so much as enforcers of occupation as they did act as spenders. The typical problems involving Luftwaffe troops were probably about girls or booze.
Fuchs asked:After sometime researching via Google it appears that:Quote:
What's the share of Muslims in the Indian army?
1) no official figures for today exist
2) in 1947 Muslims accounted for 30-35% of the army
3) 13% of Indians are Muslim
4) reported in 2011-2012 3% of the army were Muslim, approx. 29k
I find that a rather low number, especially since I've seen reports on locally recruited Kashmiri infantry units.
As they say I know someone who should know, so will ask.
The whole issue hinges on the culture and mindset!
You all don't understand the language, but try getting these translated.Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbfpo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3EHD...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_M0S...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26lC3...layer_embedded
There are units that are totally Muslim in the Indian Army as in the Grenadiers and Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuchs
There are many Muslim who have won the highest gallantry awards of the Indian Army.
The Muslims of the Indian Army are as good as any other.
In the Indian Army, the tradition is that all adhere to the religion and customs of the troops. Hence, it is not surprising to see non Muslim officers of a Muslim unit undertaking Ramzan and being on a fast and anyway, all have to attend the Mosque prayers.
Likewise, I was in a 90% Buddhist unit and underwent all Buddhist religious customs and festivals since it was the majority religion.
In the Indian Army where there is a mixed religious composition, we have an All Faith Temple.
It was no big deal!
And anyway, religion is the last thing on the mind when performing our duties!
Ray:
What would the reaction be of the NCOs and officers to troops from one unit taunting troops from another unit based upon religious or regional differences? Say guys from a predominantly Sikh unit making fun of Gurkas, though the question is not limited to those groups.