Unfortunately the same phenomenon struck during
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmericanPride
Are these trends unique to Ft Campbell/101st? Or is it the tip of the spear for underlying Army-wide problems? Why are American soldiers dying by suicide and recklessness at rates at times higher than those killed in action? What can junior leaders do to mitigate these problems in their units?
both the Korean and Viet Nam wars. As Schmedlap says, sort of goes with the job. I doubt much can be done without a significant improvement in the US K-12 educational system and / or better parenting, both of which are unlikely. All you can do is try to educate without hectoring or being condescending -- that'll just make 'em push harder.
Part of the problem is that we treat them like children so they act that way. Instead of punishing miscreants, we punish all by restrictive and corrosive measures so they get their petty revenge by doing dumb stuff. I suspect the Legions had the same problem with they younger troops -- but a 25 year enlistment probably kept some of that down...:wry:
I've been accused by experts of being deranged...
What is this 'real job' stuff -- not I, not I... :D
Traumatic Stress as a growing experience
The Comprehensive Soldier Fitness program plants lot of flags on resiliency and growing from traumatic events. http://www.army.mil/csf/
Good order and discipline
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ken White
both the Korean and Viet Nam wars. As Schmedlap says, Part of the problem is that we treat them like children so they act that way. Instead of punishing miscreants, we punish all by restrictive and corrosive measures so they get their petty revenge by doing dumb stuff. ...:wry:
Struck a chord Ken... Long ago in a battery far away... I used that approach...
Soldiers deserve to be treated (rewarded/disciplined) as men and women - Since we are all human, second chances are appropriate for offenses that don't warrant immediate dismissal... a third strike was not a given... of course we could administratively remove under-performing soldiers back then... point being... my Soldiers had the lowest DWI and serious incident rate in the Corps... when asked for our unit's "secret" and I explained why... The senior leaders were usually dissatisfied with the response.
Now I caveat.... I had to deal with long deployments with tax free dollars, but not the mental aftermath of close combat stress...
beginning of a trend unfortunately no
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmericanPride
Are these trends unique to Ft Campbell/101st? Or is it the tip of the spear for underlying Army-wide problems?
Well the army has been walking down the High-risk behavior and suicide prevention. I have seen a lot of attention in that direction as it is a serious issue but I don't know how much we have improved at preventing these tragedies but God knows we try.
Number one rule is the guy that takes care of me is to my left and my right and i take care of them but sometimes it just ain't enough.
PTSD - From a different context
My personal view on PTSD (which includes having symptoms for years) is that it is an adaptation. Consider what the result is:
- Ehanced startle reflex and instant capacity for violence (i.e. rapid response capacity)
- Hyper-alertness (i.e. situational awareness)
- Light sleep and disrupted sleep patterns (i.e. less easy to creep up on while asleep.)
- Tendency to be unpredictable and make sudden changes of plan. (i.e. less predictable.)
All of those characteristics are survival adaptations when a person is hunted or at risk.
Those adaptations can be problematic when one returns to "normal society", and they can be very problematic if the person thinks there is something seriously wrong with them. The adaptation comes out when needed, for some it is harder to put away than for others.
My experience was that starting about 4 or 5 months after coming home for good, I began to have issues. My unconscious was in overdrive trying to find the threats so I could avoid them. But since I couldn't find any, that mechanism just kept amping up more. I suspect quite a few people start drinking or doing pot or whatever to calm down, but that just makes it worse.
What I recommend to people I talk to is first, do a few things to keep cool. Instead of fighting the impulse to lock down, go ahead if you have to. Skip the firearms unless you are in a real bad area, but keep some minor thing like a heavy flashlight on hand if it helps you sleep. Most of all, focus on reality testing and staying social. Don't withdraw, get out and do something. Doesn't have to be a lot of talk-talk unless a guy wants it. I never found talk "about it" helpful myself. But getting out cycling, or hiking, or doing some project together is. It can be very surreal being out there with "regular folks" for a while though. I've had that feeling for days sometimes like I'm walking around in someone else's life, almost a dream I'm having. The unconscious is like a 2 year old toddler inside, not terribly smart, and has to be shown or told clearly what is going on, that things are ok. It will work to say or do it, but it can take time. It takes time and work to bring out the PTSD adaptations when they are needed. It takes time and work to mellow later.
Aside from that, yeah, it's a change and you won't ever be the same again. That's just how it is. Things mellow out with time, and there are good things with the bad. For instance, I prevented a woman getting kidnapped around here because seeing that swift economy of motion of an experienced attacker set me off - bang.
So yes, it's real. Someone finding themselves revving up when society around them says they should be relaxed and out of the storm is, I think, much of the problem. Relax and understand this too will pass.
Good post. Well said in all aspects
and I can identify with all of it. :cool:
Re: your question. We may and I'll see if I can find it.
Someone may know and beat me to it. In the interim, I'd posit a thought.
The kind of person, male or female that enlists in the combat arms or for a potential combat assignment in any service is almost certainly into accepting more risk than are most people. Those who indulge in risky behavior tend to err more frequently than do the Turtles of the world (who rarely get anywhere because they're afraid to stick their necks out... :rolleyes:).
I would be surprised if veterans were not over represented in prisons or homeless shelters among other places. I know PTSD exists and I also know people handle it in different ways -- I also know that some will uh, enhance, their 'symptoms' for various reasons and I know that prisoners will look for any angle that gives them a break, no matter how slight. :cool:
And no, Slap, I will not tell you how I know that last... :D
Concern for the welfare of the troops is necessary and good but I hope we don't go too far in trying to stifle risky behavior -- Armies would get bogged down without that. Oh, wait...
Quantitative Physiological differences...
I'm going to double-post this image b/c it's important. SPECT scans are allowing us to understand the impact a bit more...
Here's the latest research. I've seen better images, but this is the best that I could find on google.
http://www.clementsclinic.com/anxiet...in-spect-scans
v/r
Mike
Post-combat stress as a defense
So far as I know, this is the first PTSD case decided by SCOTUS. Analysis by Lyle Denniston at SCOTUSblog:
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Post-combat stress as a defense
Monday, November 30th, 2009 1:14 pm | Lyle Denniston
The Supreme Court, in a sign of the times for a nation at war on two fronts, on Monday put defense lawyers on notice that they should be prepared to use evidence of “post-traumatic stress disorder” to try to save accused veterans from the death penalty. Ruling without full briefing or a hearing, and with no dissent noted, the Court apparently overturned the death sentence of a Florida veteran whose “combat service unfortunately left him a traumatized, changed man,” as the Court put it in Porter v. McCollum (08-10537), involving Korean war veteran George Porter, Jr.
Quote:
“Our Nation has a long tradition of according leniency to veterans in recognition of their service, especially for those who fought on the front lines as Porter did,” the opinion said. “The relevance of Porter’s extensive combat experience is not only that he served honorably under extreme hardship and gruesome conditions, but also that the jury might find mitigating the intense stress and mental and emotional toll that combat took on Porter.”
Because the case turned mainly on the specific facts of the prosecution and defense of Porter for murdering his former girlfriend and her boyfriend, it is not clear that the ruling will have a direct impact on other criminal cases in which combat stress might be a key factor. However, parts of the Court’s opinion read as if the Justices did intend to speak more broadly.....
Please note the 16 page opinion (here) is a Per Curium (all Justices agreeing). It raises no novel legal issues; and the guilty verdict stays in place. The trial will address solely the sentence (death or not), with the jury hearing the PTSD evidence.
So, discuss freely, if you are so inclined.
Schmedlap, maybe, maybe not
This comment applies only to the guilt phase of the trial.
By using the PTSD argument in this phase, you might have to say that the PTSD caused him to do the act (in effect, admitting the crime).
So, you run the risk of doing to your client what Mike Tyson's lawyer did to him. Paraphrasing the argument as I recall it - His childhood and life were so traumatic it turned him into an animal, just an animal.
A jury might well symphathize with a vet, but it is not likely to symphathize with an animalistic murderer, rapist or home invader.
Now, PTSD might work in a case that has some other redeeming factors, such as Anatomy of a Murder where temporary loss of mental capacity was allowed as a defense (with PTSD claimed as a basis for that). Or, in the Astan HT case, where premeditated murder ended up as a manslaughter plea - and the judge gave a light sentence.
In most jurisdictions in non-death cases, the jury decides guilt and the judge sets sentence. So, the PTSD evidence would most likely be heard by the judge if not introduced in the guilt phase.
Situational awareness needed on the part of the lawyer - plus good luck of the draw as to judge and jury. :)
Rusty on criminal law, Schmedlap ?
Hell, you just took it - relative to this oldster.
GBMI Defense = Guilty but mentally ill
NGBI defense = Not Guilty by reason of insanity.
Huge difference to the client between these defenses.
1. GBMI Defense. There are two aspects to the sentence: (1) court ordered mental treatment; and (2) the punitive sentence. Logically, the mental treartment comes first; and that fits in with the usual intake system for felons given prison terms, a pre-incarceration psychologocal examination. BTW: if you have a client or are faced with a witness who has done prison time, obtain copies of his psychologiocal examinations. After the mental treatment ends, the prisoner is then sent off to prison to complete the punitive sentence.
2. NGBI defense. No sentence; but only court ordered mental treatment. Once that ends, the client is as free as a bird. And, if the mental capacity problem is transitory (occured only at the time of the alleged offense), the client walks free from the courtroom.
So, the default rule is not to plead to a GBMI; unless it's a dodge out of a death penalty case. In fact, if the defendant pleads a NGBI defense, I would be well advised as a prosecutor to request a GBMI instruction to give the jury an option to send the guy to prison (eventually).
The NGBI defense, in its pure form, has some hurdles - ability to distinguish right from wrong. Of course, if the vet actually suffers from delusions and thought he was being attacked by Viet Cong, NGBI would apply in full measure.
PTSD could also come up indirectly in other circumstances.
1. Where a temporary loss of mental capacity is allowed as a NGBI defense - as in Michigan (Anatomy of a Murder), where the LT was acquitted. However, based on jury interviews, the jury found that his wife had been raped and beaten by the deceased; and that the LT was justified to take his retribution and defend her honor. So, there the proofs of PTSD (which were introduced) were a hook on which the jury could hang its hat.
2. Where intent, deliberation, premeditation is an issue - as in the Astan HT case where the gal was torched by the bad guy who was then executed by her bodyguard. PTSD could be a valid argument vs formation of intent, deliberation, premeditation. In fact, a fair argument could be made under the right facts that the killing was involuntary manslaughter.
3. Where the defendant's perception is an issue - as in self-defense situations. E.g., the defendant viewed the deceased as a hostile threat (even if objectively he might be viewed otherwise) and reactions kicked in, etc.
---------------------------------
Haditha is a timely citation, but involved a combat situation (not PTSD from events decades ago). LtCol Jeffrey Chessani's Board of Inquiry convenes today, December 2, at Camp Pendleton.
Polarbear1605 knows more about Haditha in his little claw than I know. Of course, you know the story about him. It began "in the snows of far off Northern lands ...", where the Marines found him behind a log as an abandoned cub. They took him back to Quantico, raised him and then made him an officer and gentleman. Truly, an inspiring saga. :)
Cheers
Mike
A Can of Worms always makes for a great Case Study
Ah Yes, Haditha! A bit surprised that it popped up in this discussion but probably a good example of how bad the government can goof up a high profile war crime/court martial. The case spun out of control when Rep Jack Murtha, spent two weeks hitting the news shows stating that the Haditha Marines “cracked’ and committed “cold blooded murder” while the investigation was still ongoing. The Marine Corps has since been trying to get all the worms back into the can (4 plus years). As a quick update: Eight Marines were referred to Court Martial in the Haditha incident where 26 Iraqis (16 civilians and the remained combatants but those numbers vary) were killed when a Marine rifle squad reacted to an ambush sprung on them in the recently occupied city of Haditha, in Nov 2005. Five of the cases were dismissed based on the Article 32 investigation. The sixth case, one of the battalion’s intelligence officers (Lt), went to court martial and was found not guilty. I should note that the Lieutenant was never charged with any of the deaths. He was charged with making false official statements and discharging himself illegally from the Marine Corps. He was found not guilty of all charges. The Battalion commander was next. At the beginning of the Court Martial the military judge found that undue command influence had tainted the case…case dismissed. The undue command influence was upheld by the Navy Appeals Board. Not to be denied, the Commandant referred the Bn CO to a Naval Board of Inquiry. The BOI started on Wednesday, Dec 2, at Camp Pendleton. The last case is against the squad leader (then Sgt now) SSgt Frank Wuterich. The SSgt did an interview with 60 Minutes and the prosecutor subpoenaed CBS for the out takes in hope of getting evidence. CBS, surprisingly, rolled over and provided the out-takes once it got to a federal court. Since the undue command influence goes back to the Marine Col (lawyer type) that did the Commander of Multi-National Corps – Iraq investigation and then was assigned to the Marine Command Convening Authorities staff, it also taints the squad leader’s case. I believe that the squad leader will eventually also receive a BOI after his court martial is dismissed for undue command influence.
Collateral Damage: A number of other officers were relieved and censored including a Capt, two Cols and a Marine general, again before the investigation was complete. The Capt was a company commander located in one of Haditha’s adjacent cities (never figured that one out); the Cols were the regimental commander and the chief of staff for the Marines Forces Hq Iraq; and of course the commanding general of the Marine Forces Hq Iraq.
This baby has worms and flaming ducks crawling all over the place. The best place to get additional information is at the DefendOurMarines web site:
http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKi...OurMarines.htm