Good solid western thought processes...
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Originally Posted by
Rank amateur
In all years, and all your experiences, have you ever seen people who were more likely to resolve their differences when there was no pressure to resolve them?
In the ME, pressure is more likely to create resistance. These are people who essentially do not discipline their kids much; the kid grows up not having any concept of the meaning of 'no.' For example, April Glaspies comment to Saddam that the US had 'no interest in his claim to Kuwait' was seen by him as carte blannche to take it -- and he did.
They are people that, if you admire something they have , will insist on giving it to you -- and will quite frequently be offended if you do not take it. Thery also believe they are supposed to tell you what they think you want to hear. This has caused a number of westerners to think they had agreement on a process or item only to find out they had no such thing.
They are people who will kill family members for bringing 'dishonor' on the family. They are studiously polite people who will be almost obsequeious in front of you and arrange your murder ten minutes later.
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Honestly, it is. David Ogilvy said, "The consumer isn't stupid, she's your wife." Meaning, that if the ad sounded like BS to your wife, it would sound like BS to all the other customers.
If David erred, something would not sell. No real harm. If the soldier errs, someone dies unnecessarily. More to the point; they have finely tuned BS detectors and they have long memories. We have a reputation for BSing them. They have not forgotten. We are also kafir ferenghi -- they always remember that...
The counterpoint to that is they do like results, proven proper performance currently can outweigh previous sins. They are very pragmatic.
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If you wouldn't want a foreign company named Blackwater to be able to shoot Americans without fear of reprisals, they won't want that in Iraq. If you felt something was worth fighting for, you'd fight for it. So will they. If you were willing to accept help, but not a hand out, they're not willing to accept a hand out either. If you're willing to fight with the French, but would never trust them, your new "allies" in Iraq will never trust you.
The first part of that is correct; they wouldn't want that. The second part is partly correct. If you threaten a fight with an area resident, he will look around. if there is no one in the crowd he knows, he will beg and whine, will get down on his knees and grovel. If there is someone he knows, depending on the closeness of acquaintance, he may or may not fight. If there is a family member present he will fight, possibly to the death. Again, they are a very pragmatic people...
The third part is way wrong. They will take a hand out in a second; will even ask for one. they're proud but that 'no hand out' routine is a western norm, it doesn't work in the ME; they will take all they can get and ask for more -- and if you offer a concession or compromise on anything, they will take that as a weakness. Haggling is an are pastime.
The fourth part is even more wrong -- no one in the ME will ever 'trust' anyone who is not family (preferably) or tribe / clan / moetie, etc (secondarily).
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People are people. They always have been and always will be.
True -- but cultures vary. In the words of R. Kipling; "Asia is not going to be civilized after the methods of the West. There is too much Asia and she is too old. "
That, BTW, is quite important.
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Before the Shiite dominated Army was responsible for security. This could just be a tactical change, but as a spin doctor I suspect that we are moving back to the Reagan strategy of using the Iraqi Sunni as a force against Iran and that no one has the cajones to admit that we've invested 100s of billions and 3,000 lives to go back in time 20 years to implement a strategy that would be more effective if Saddam were still alive.
Actually, Regan's approach was generally conciliation and avoiding conflict. Carter erred mightily in his handling of the Tehran Embassy seizure and started a downhill spiral in the ME -- show a weakness there of any kind and it will be exploited. Reagan's failure to react to the kidnappings and bombings in Beirut confirmed in the minds of the ME that we were morally weak. Bush 41 failing to go to Baghdad confirmed that in their minds and everything Clinton did just embedded it that much deeper. They, like you did not understand the very significant cultural differences. Every thing they did was correct in accordance with western values -- and totally wrong with respect to ME values.
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(I fully admit that I'm cynical, and my cynicism is why I don't serve, and that I am sometimes wrong, but I'm not always wrong.)
No, you aren't, nor is there anything wrong with not having served. Your logic above is impeccable in western terms. Regrettably, the ME operates on a different wave length.
Another Kipling quote:
"Now it is not good for the Christian's health To hustle the Aryan brown, For the Christian riles and the Aryan smiles, And it weareth the Christian down. And the end of the fight is a tombstone white With the name of the late deceased-- And the epitaph drear: "A fool lies here Who tried to hustle the East."
Thanks, Guys. I had to learn all that the hard way.
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Originally Posted by
Watcher In The Middle
Ken:
. . .
. . .
First, would many of these same "guidelines" also apply to the Persians (Iran)?
Definitely. It applies generically to the ME, Christians and all sects included. Not just Arabs and Persians but all races. The Arabs and Persians are most inclined that way but vestiges of it can be seen everywhere. I managed to spend some time in all the countries except Yemen and Israel and the traits were universal.
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Second, if so, then you just provided the base outline for all our negotiations in any talks with Iran. I've often thought that maybe our best team of negotiators with the Iranian government shouldn't be from the DOS or the military, but should be a group made up of the best "Texas Holdem" players in the world. If the Iranians want to grandstand and play geopolitical poker, no prob. Sometimes you got to show 'em you can play the game, too.
Sorry, but I don't think so. My Boss and I were on the train from Tehran to Ahvaz many years ago. We traveled with two Iranian Colonels and were introduced to "Persian poker" -- the Iranian dealing made up the rules as he went along for that hand while the Emrikai dealing were held to Hoyle -- which both Colonels knew well. The Arab Legion in Jordan played generally the same way.
They approach negotiations with the same idea; they know their rules and you do not. Haggling throughout the ME is a blood sport. The south Asians do it also but not as well -- thus Khalilzad was only fairly effective as Ambassador to Iraq.
They really do not bluff -- and will generally spot one and call it quickly. They change the rules so they do not have to bluff. If you bluff and get called, you lose great face with them. You find that almost no stores have price tags on items for sale, they live to haggle. If you accept the first price offered, you'll lose their respect and they'll try to take you for everything you've got. If you hold out to the fifth or sixth, you'll get a little respect and a little less rapaciousness. Go to ten or fifteen and you're mildly okay in their book. You will never be fully okay because you're a westerner.
You may or may not have seen the picture of Bush in Iraq last time; one with Sheik Abdul-Sattar Abu Risha. Several leftish blogs linked to the picture and said the Sheik was showing his contempt for Bush. Don't think so. I think that look was seething hatred at being forced to consort with a man who had invaded his country and killed members of his tribe. As stated, they are pragmatic to a fault and will deal with anyone who offers them an advantage. But all deals are temporary...
I also left out two important items (it was late and I'm old... :( ). The bit about if you if you admire something they have, they'll insist on giving it to you -- and will quite frequently be offended if you do not take it. True -- and they emphatically expect total reciprocity.
It is considered not only permissible but desirable to lie (as we in the west see it -- they do not look at it that way) to a customer -- or a foreigner...
Thanks. Your point on assimilation is important.
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Originally Posted by
marct
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The only thing I would like to note is that there is an extension to this that goes back to a critical error many observers seem to make in interpreting this comment. First off, every clan based society has to have some way of dealing with inter-clan feuds (and the mechanisms for doing so are really varied, but always there). Second, every clan system I am aware of has developed a system of bringing non-clan members into the clan; again, the forms vary, but it is always there. It strikes me that one of the really crucial things that we tend to overlook is the search for these two mechanisms.
I've seen that on both sides of the globe. It even extends to foreigners as individuals -- a grouping will reject all or some foreigners or other races as a class but still accord select individuals the rights of kinship, as it were.
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The same is not really true in the ME, which, on the whole, has a radically different conception of State organizations. Generally speaking, and this is really a broad brush generalization, ME cultures tend to produce God Kings who co-opt clan structures rather than Kings (or volkmoots) who mediate clan structures/disputes. This style of state organization goes back in many areas of the ME to at least the 4th millennium BC, and is still apparent in some current ME states and is also a major characteristic of Islam itself where Allah is the God King ("Muslim" literally means "one who submits [to God]").
True -- and it's still apparent today. It has been said that in the west, one makes money in order to influence politics and power; in the ME one gets into politics and gains power to accrue money... :)
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Back to the point about inter-clan (tribe, lineage, etc.) mechanisms for a) stopping conflicts and b) incorporating outsiders into the system. These mechanisms are radically different from those in the Anglo Culture Complex as are the behaviours that they generate and we cannot afford to make the mistake of assuming that they are the same.
Marc
Critical and accurate point. The British were masters at having a person accepted as a kinsman in societies around the world -- Freya Stark and Wilfrid Thesiger come to mind. We Americans don't seem to do that well. Yet we do have people who truly understand the cultures of regions of interest. That knowledge has been used, too rarely, to stop conflicts. Regrettably, the knowledgeable folks are too often ignored by the power structure... :wry:
All true - and I'm pleased to report the same
folks respond the same way to the appallingly ignorant American Farmer type in the same manner... :wry:
To underscore your point on context, it did not work in Iraq,. Even without a visa in my passport, they knew I'd been in Iran. :eek:
The limits of rank, even 4-stars
Oblong,
Your questioning of the GEN Petraeus' venue is understandable but misguided. Despite the commonly held perception that a 4-star general is "in charge" nothing could be farther from the truth wrt this type of media engagement. "Experts" in DoD most assuredly directed who the General would speak to and who he wouldn't, at least on the record and in conjunction with official testimony. That's not to say that they control GEN Petraeus' testimony, I spent too much time in his company to imagine his intellect much less his ego would allow that type of manipulation. The man is not without fault, but he's far from a mouth piece.
Live well and row
Armchair guy. Sorry, somwehow I missed this
earlier. I agree with Marc, would only add that my perception is that the defense of guest effort is more solid in Afghanistan than it is in the ME -- other than among the Kurds, where it is quite strongly entrenched. Mountain folks the world over tend to have slightly different mores than their flatland counterparts.
The Arabs and Persians IMO occasionally seem to be inclined to a more, er, pragmatic approach...