Off topic: mainland affairs
Red Rat partial citation:
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Generally UK Police forces prefer to contain public order situations, preventing damage to property and minimising risk to life. They prefer a longer term solution which sees them contain the situation and then with things have died down they go in days and weeks later and arrest those involved using evidence they have gathered during the riots.
Yes, on the mainland UK there has been a strategy and practice of containment and post-event arrests using CCTV, photos etc. This can work in some situations, partly as few in the crowd appear to consider the consequences of identication and predictably stern sentencing by the courts. Police forces across the mainland have used this, not always successfully as large numbers of rioters remain unknown; it probably best works with predictable crowds, notably football match day violence as the numbers are small and often very well known.
For reasons that are not clear there has been a far more offensive strategy and practice for public disorder, often when political causes are involved, from the protests outside arms fairs to large-scale demos in London. This has led to much criticism, from across the spectrum and not the "usual suspects" e.g anti-hunting ban demo in London a few years ago, with baton charges, on a largely rural, conservative, white demo. The policing of the G8 protests in London being a cause celebre and the resulting report by the Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary (HMIC) documents this very well. The report is:http://www.derbyshire.police.uk/sei/s/760/f1120.pdf
There's also a KoW item on this, wider issue:http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/05/on-crowds-and-coin/
Yes, the police can contain or disperse and other options. What is the level of support they have, from the local community to the national level?
Turning to the short spasm of rioting in Northern Ireland, if the police (PSNI) had taken the non-containment route what support would they have had? It is apparent from previous incidents that "community leaders" and youth workers have been able to reduce the level of violence and numbers involved.
Ulster-South Africa similar?
JMA cited:
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The ANC leadership fill parliament and government positions and pay lip service to everything that keeps international opinion sweet while the "Youth League" are total nutters behaving and saying the most outrageous things. The ANC leadership say they are just kids and will grow up in time while the general opinion is that the youth league are speaking and behaving the like the ANC leadership would love to still be doing. Maybe a similar situation in NI?
No, there is little similarity between the ANC and Provisional Sein Fein (PIRA). What we do have is history repeating itself, with nationalist supporters splitting over peace now and unification etc later -v- stay at war and we will get unification. The Provisionals split off from the Official IRA:
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It emerged out of the December 1969 split of the Irish Republican Army due to differences over ideology and over how to respond to violence against the nationalist community.
From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisi...epublican_Army
Now the Provisionals face the rump of "let's fight on" and their campaign to recruit new supporters in Northern Ireland. It is quite clear there remains support in the Irish Republic.
Splinters in phone booths?
JMM,
You partly cited my comment on:
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support in the Irish Republic
and asked:
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how many phone booths do these SIRA (Splinter IRA) supporters occupy in the Republic ?
I did not qualify or attempt to quantify the level of support in the Irish Republic, from this "armchair" I would speculate a few hundred who are prepared to assist directly, e.g. fund raising and a slightly larger audience who are only prepared to applaud. That is alas enough to keep the "hardliners" active.
There is a very good book on the motivation of the Irish Republican movement, by a US journalist, 'Rebel Hearts; Journeys within the IRA's soul' by Kevin Toolis (Pub. 1995). What I learnt from that in particular was how the appeal of the 'fight' lived on in memories far stronger further away from Northern Ireland.
(Abridged title) Irish and Muslim Experiences of COIN
This item could go elsewhere as it fits in several threads IMHO.
'Countering Terror or Counter-Productive? Comparing Irish and Muslim Experiences of Counter-insurgency Law and Policy'
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This report is a record of, and reflection on, two days of discussions that took place in Belfast in June 2009 between a group of Irish human rights and community activists and political ex-prisoners, ... and representatives of a number of Muslim groups working on similar issues today.
(from the summary)The aim of the event was to explore comparisons between Irish and Muslim experiences of the impact of counter-terror measures. Three key themes were established; The Nature of Counter-insurgency Law and Policy Experiencing Counter-insurgency Policies: ommunities, Prisoners, Families and Young People Counter-insurgency, Campaigning and Communities. The idea to hold such a meeting emerged after initial conversations about the potential value of bringing together people from the North of Ireland and Muslim communities in Britain who had experience in dealing with the impact and consequences at a community evel of state anti-terror (or counter-insurgency) strategies.
Yes, some of the groups involved come from a particular strand of opinion. So the activities of paramilitaries appear rarely - on a quick read. Making such comparisons are not unknown, in the academic world and amongst community groups.
Link:http://www.ihrc.org.uk/publications/...law-and-policy
We're back and the response is surprising
Comments made after another bomb and criticism of the lack of intelligence on the 'new' enemy in 'old bottles'; link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-tactics.html
The bombing:
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The fact that police received a warning that a device was left in one area and a device actually exploded in another has similarities to the Omagh bombing that we would not like to see repeated.
On the criticism:
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It is time for everyone to face up to some inconvenient political truths about this violence. It is now very clear that MI5 is not up to the task of leading intelligence-gathering in the north. The SDLP believes we need an aggressive, high-profile, all-Ireland intelligence-gathering operation based on the bond of trust which has grown between police and public.
Elsewhere some, hopefully good news:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-10984738
From Ulster to Afghanistan: the Blair way?
As former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair's memoirs sell well amidst the vairiety of reviews is this rather pithy comment on his part in the Northern Ireland peace process:http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourking...-09-06%2012:17
What struck me was the final comment:Citing the SDLP leader Seamus Mallon
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In reality his whole strategy in terms of resolution of the Northern Ireland problem—I don’t use the term peace process—was “who do I buy and who do I sell”?
Sorry to be so cynical or critical that sounds like an Afghan exit strategy.