Interesting thread, we can title it
'Dueling Opinons'
Because that's what it's degenerated to. On the one hand we have the Spartans, on the other the sybaritic Persians... :D
I guess I'm a Persian, I got Steak every now and then in a couple of wars; I thought it was a good idea even as I ached for the kids who later scuffled through our garbage for something edible.
For Jill: If you believe that the original intent was to remain in Iraq long term, you may want to delve into that in more depth.
For Ski: You enjoy the Spartan existence -- does every other soldier you know believe in the same standard? How would our enlistment rate look were your view to prevail?
Seems to me to be a lot of "If I were God..." and that valid points made by folks who were there are sort of overlooked. The most egregious overlooking being in the area of how (to include methods and times), even if you dispense with contractors and the troops do the CSS jobs, you are going to feed the guys outside the wire in the COPs the same meals you are able to feed in the base camps. That doesn't even get into how you're going to retain, in a volunteer force, those Fobbits and / or REMFs if you forced them to eat like the line guys.
No one has yet come up with a viable alternative that will meet the needs and goals of the nation, the army -- or of today's troops who are very emphatically not Spartans, Roman Legionaires, Revolutionary Continentals or even post Civil War troopies. I'll wait for that.
They don't want ice cream, they want hot coffee.
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Originally Posted by
Sargent
...I do not, however, have much tolerance for a system that can leave some out in the cold when but a few miles away guys are eating ice cream -- all the while, the contractor is still paid. That's just ridiculous.
The guys out in the heat in OTOH may well want Ice Cream -- unlike you, they understand why they can't have it (as has been repeatedly explained by several others above) and they don't get too wrapped around the axle about luck of the draw REMFs eating better (as has also been repeatedly stated).
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Now it's your turn. Explain for me and Ski how the sort of quality of life efforts being made on behalf of the vast majority of Americans deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan is not harming our COIN effort...
Good try. Hard to prove a negative. :D
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...Can you justify generators being run non-stop to keep the lobsters and ice cream on ice while most Iraqis are still without a reliable electrical system?
Sure. Those generators are running lights, computers, defensive systems and hospitals -- and the vaccines, serum and blood the treatment facilities need. The lobsters and ice cream are only a microscopically small part of the mass of food it takes to feed the troops. Most of that food is cheap stringy contract beef, pork and chicken plus vegetables. Most of it also doesn't taste that great, the steak and lobster can be tough and stringy too but at least they make up for Chili Mac and Roasted Chicken.
The Iraqis have more electricity now than they had in 2002 and they know it. They are unlikely to ever have the relative luxury the US does and takes with it where ever it goes.That may offend some but it's a fact of life and has been true in every war we've been in during my lifetime. I doubt it will change. Even if we get a Spartan for CJCS... ;)
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How do you propose for the Iraqi Army to learn how to DIY their own logistics at the battalion level when they have no model from which to learn?
One should expect them to resurrect the previous logistic system they had, copied from the British and that worked for them through a pretty big war in the 1980-88. That's a fact of history. They'll take on a few US modifications but it will basically be an Iraqi log system as it should be.
We do BTW, have log systems at Bn level to include cooks. It's cheaper and easier to use the contract mess to cook huge quantities and the Bn picks up and distributes it to the Outposts (not the contractor, the Bn and the units in that Bn).
Doesn't have to be your way, Ski's way or my way to work...
And I'm still waiting for this:
"No one has yet come up with a viable alternative that will meet the needs and goals of the nation, the army -- or of today's troops who are very emphatically not Spartans, Roman Legionaires, Revolutionary Continentals or even post Civil War troopies. I'll wait for that."
I don't think that's what I said...
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Originally Posted by
Sargent
...According to your logic, there is no need for the advisors, because the Iraqis had an army that could fight -- all they need to do is resurrect the previous operational capability they had, copied from [and often educated by] the British and that had worked for them through a pretty big war in 1980-88. That's a fact of history as well.
I'll just repeat this part:"...They'll take on a few US modifications but it will basically be an Iraqi log system as it should be."
Don't agree that building up a good fighting capability is all that much easier than building the Log capability -- but I certainly acknowledge that the Log piece is not easy. All of which has little to do with US practice and capabilities...
The logisitics capability of
the Italian Army fascinated me when I was a young soldier; red wine, real pasta, and naps for lunch out in the brush of the Po River Valley and cappuccino and pasticcini's for afternoon breaks in hills and mountains of the Veneto region (apparently there are mobile versions of the cappuccino machine). I would always mentally compare and contrast what I had read about the history of the Romans with what I observed in modern times.
In general my take on things is that 'lighter is righter'. That outlook helps to keep me mentally and physically sharper out in the field and it helps with building rapport with the local populace; they are in fact very aware of how we fight and live.
As an 'Economics' data-point the 2008 Pocket World in Figures published by the Economist notes that 49.1% of the US population is employed, 29.3% of the Syrian population is employed, and 33.5% of the Turkish population is employed. The percentages for Afghanistan, Jordan, Iraq & Iran are not given and the Cayman Islands is listed as number one with 68.9% of the populace employed. 'Global Competitiveness' rankings were built on 259 different criteria, with the US being listed as number one.
Tooth to tail ratios over the years and over various campaigns for different armies would be interesting. Does anybody have any insights?
Just started in on this Rand study on US Forces (OP 23 The Other End of the Spear: The Tooth to-Tail Ratio (T3R) in Modern Military Operations)...
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McGrath’s study finds that the tooth-to-tail ratio, among types of deployed US forces, has steadily declined since World War II, just as the nature of warfare itself has changed. At the same time, the percentage of deployed forces devoted to logistics functions and to base and life support functions have both increased, especially with the advent of the large-scale of use of civilian contractors.
Well, I’ve never really cared for lobster…
and the steaks were usually too overdone.
While the grunt/line doggie will always bitch and moan about the REMF, it is after all a prerogative of the position ;) , they also almost universally understand that without those folks in the rear with the gear and the beer there wouldn’t be somewhere to rotate back to for some decent hot chow, real showers, etc.
It isn’t that you cannot live on Cs/MREs for quite a long period of time; it is they just get a bit mundane. The REMFs just get to enjoy the American largess daily because they happen to work there, but if they are not there then no one gets any perks. As has been noted here, and elsewhere, if you do not have to live in misery then why do it?
Having quality small unit time during chow is important and in my experience that time is mostly when you are eating field rats in a remote area. Everyone huddles up to horse trade items and often we just combined all the meats into a hash so all could enjoy the repast (especially relevant when the early MREs had the nutritious and delicious dehydrated beef patty, mmmmm). Seems to me that chow halls, rather than bringing folks together, tend to facilitate folks splitting up.
As to Surferbeetle’s experience with the Italians I would also say the French Foreign Legion is not lacking in the mastery of field epicureanism. The 2 REP seemed to have some marvelous scroungers and the cook (not his MOS just an additional duty) was always in fine form when “la soupe” was served in the western reaches of Djibouti. :D