Steve, the Persian Empire ...
held all of the areas of which you speak (except for North Africa; and the littoral areas and Anatolia taken by the Romans and held by the Byzantines) for much of the 1000-year period until they were conquered by the Arabs.
I have no claim to fame as a Persian SME; but something had to rub off in 1000 years.
Yup, basically al-Sadr & Nasrallah family link
is what I was looking at ....
Quote:
from tribalguy
I believe, but am not 100% sure, that Nasarallah is ((Musawi)) as well, if that is what you were referring to.
So, I don't know & you don't know. So far, we're batting 0-2 (one heck of a baseball team :) ).
Not an SME on the Jabal Amel, its history, genealogies and migrations; and definitely not an Arabist. Just looking at some folks involved in killing US Marines and agency people in Beirut a long time ago.
Here are some notes on genealogies [lots of current history on the folks named], for whatever they might be worth:
-----------------------
As-Sadr (or al-Sadr) - here used of a current family named after Grand Ayatollah Sadr al-Din bin Saleh ("heart of the religion") of Qom, a branch of the Sharafeddine family from Jabal Amel [1]. The Sharafeddine family itself is a branch of the Noureddine family, which traces its lineage to Imam Musa al-Kazim (the seventh Shi'a Imam), and through him to the first Imam, Ali ibn Abi Talib and Fatima Zahra, the daughter of the prophet Muhammad.
Iraqi & Lebanese al-Sadr descent from 1. Sadr-ed-Deen bin Saleh
[1X. Mohammad as-Sadr, Baghdadi leader of the 1920 revolution against the British government; exact fit in family presently unclear]
1. Grand Ayatollah Sadr-ed-Deen bin Saleh,
2. Grand Ayatollah Ismail as-Sadr (d. 1919-1920), son of Sadr-ed-Deen bin Saleh,
------------------- Branch A
3A. Muhammad Mahdi as-Sadr, son of Ismail as-Sadr,
4A. Ayatollah Mohammad Sadeq es-Sadr, a leading Iraqi cleric and father of Muhammad Muhammad Sadiq as-Sadr
5A. Grand Ayatollah Mohammad Mohammad Sadeq es-Sadr (1943 - 1999), also known as "Sadr II".
6A. Muqtada al-Sadr (1973-), son of Sadr II [5A], son-in-law of Sadr I [4C2], and great-grandnephew of Mohammad as-Sadr [1X].
---------------------- Branch B
3B. Grand Ayatollah Sadr al-Din al-Sadr (d.1954), 2nd son of Ismail as-Sadr,
4B. Imam Musa as-Sadr (1928-1978?), son of Sadr al-Din al-Sadr; a Lebanese political & religious leader and a cousin of Sadeq and Baqir. [2]
---------------------- Branch C
3C. Ayatollah Haydar al-Sadr (1891-1937), son of Ismail as-Sadr,
4C1. Isma'il, son of Haydar al-Sadr
4C2 Grand Ayatollah Mohammad Baqir al-Sadr (1935-1980), son of Haydar al-Sadr and a major Islamic thinker. He is also known as the "Third martyr" or "Sadr I". He is the father-in-law of Muqtada al-Sadr.
4C3. Amina Sadr bint al-Huda, daughter of Haydar al-Sadr, killed together with her brother.
----------------------------
[1] Jabal Amel - mountainous region of Southern Lebanon; shortened over the centuries from "mountains of the Banu 'Amilah", a Yemenite tribe (kindred to the Hamadan, Lakhm and Judham) settled in Syria, Palestine, parts of Jordan, and Lebanon (by its mythology, in pre-Islamic times). A Shi'ite Muslim area since ca. 7th cent. CE - Abi Dharr Al Ghafari, companion of the Apostle & Ali Bin Abi Talib, as initial proponents.
Hassan Nasrallah, August 31, 1960, in East Beirut's Bourj Hammoud neighborhood, ninth of ten children of Abdul Karim, born in Bazouriyeh, a village in Jabal Amel (to which, Hassan Nasrallah later fled). Nasrallah, after education in al-Sadr schools in Lebanon & Iraq, succeeded Abbas al-Musawi (ca.1952–1992) as leader of Hezbollah after Musawi was killed by Israeli forces, February 16, 1992. No genealogy in English (that I found) showing descent from Muhammad (possibly in Arabic).
[2] Disappeared in 1978 on a trip to Libya. Founded Amal - see Abbas al-Musawi & Hassan Nasrallah.
Seth Godin on the tribes we lead
An interesting discussion of social networks and network theory useable in ways he likely never considered. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/se...s_we_lead.html
Glibidity and Assumptions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William F. Owen
Knowing not a lot about Hezbollah, other than what is relevant to their use of violence for political aims, I would be amazed if they had any tribal affiliation at all. Even if they did, it would be almost entirely irrelevant.
Very interesting Mr. Owen. How many books have been written in Arabic about tribes in Lebanon? Is Hezballah not a manifestation of currents within Lebanese society? Are not tribes a part of Lebanese society? Isn't it easier for terrorist organizations to recruit through kinship groups? Are there any Arab tribes that are common to both Iran and Lebanon/Syria? Isn't moving lethal aid through kinship groups that have been involved in smuggling for hundreds of years easier than trying to fabricate them out of people that don't know each other? Haven't Iran and Iraq been using kinship groups to undermine each others' states since their inception? Are recruitment and lethal aid irrelevant when it comes to terrorist organizations such as Hezballah?
What makes you think that tribes are irrelevant to Hezballah when you don't know the answer to the above questions - the answer to which all point directly towards the importance of tribes in all aspects of middle eastern society, not just Hezballah (SADR family of the ((Al-Musuwi)) tribe, Nasrallah related to Muqtada Al-Sadr, Baqir Al-Hakim AND Bahar Al-'Ulum!!!)? As if they all reached the same conclusions because they aren't related to each other? As if noble tribes weren't important in Lebanon as elsewhere?
Your assumption and bias against the relevance of tribes is based on not knowing the precise answers to these questions. In other words, you don't know what you don't know yet. Please post relevant questions or answers in the future, not assumptions.
The answers to all of those questions are unamazing to me and assuredly well known by Syria and Iran. And you had better believe that tribes are relevant to Hezballah. And please, don't come at me with what all of your Lebanese friends say. I have heard it far too often. Lebanese scholars have well defined the importance of tribes, as have Syrians and Iraqis. Or, go ahead and let the all knowing natives run their mind jobs about how sophisticated they are compared to other Arab nations. I don't drink their kool aid.
Tribes are not the only fruit...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tribeguy
What you said above negates what William Owen said. He thinks that tribalism is irrelevant in Lebanon. I wonder how much time he has spent with the ((Al-Luhayb)) of the ((Al-Jubur)) - they spend their time going between Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq!
Tribeguy,
Actually, what I posted was a link to the opinion of another commentator. Although having both studied tribal structures in the MENA at Uni as well as having experienced them in Yemen personally I can only speak for myself. Thus, I belive that the methodological reductionism that logically follows from your over-emphasis on tribal systems of governance does an injustice to the extremely complex political imbroglio currently extant in the MENA. That said, we know that tribalism played an immensely important role in Saddam Hussein's regime, which was deliberate and heightened, and still does though it is partly superveined upon buy sectarianism which was "supressed" as a politically motivating force. Also tribalism is very important in Jordan ,Yemen ,Pakistan and Afghanistan but less so in Egypt and Lebanon (previous caveats aside). In Pakistan and Afghanistan the tribal aspect is almost wholly isomorphic with the ethnic divisions of each country to such an extent that the explanatory value of isolating the tribal elements alone is about as useful as only focusing on the ethnic, linguistic or sectarian aspects. The structural metamorphosis that tribes underwent under the Egyptian and Lebanese regimes did not remove them but altered their significance and modus operandi. Tribes are not unimportant; their importance derives from the presence or absence of other political forces, trends, structures. As Lenin said (and, IMO, it was perhaps the only thing he said that ever had a ring of truth to it) "everything is connected to everything thing else". We must take that to the grundnorm of any comprehensive understanding of any political/military phenomena.