'Nigeria: the context for violence' (2006-2013)

Printable View

Show 50 post(s) from this thread on one page

11-15-2011
KingJaja

Quote:

Before accompanying my better half on a five week long stay in Burkina Faso last summer I was doing some poking around online for news and current events and came upon a piece about a recently concluded training operation centered in Ouagadougou. I encountered absolutely no mention of it during my stay there much less a revulsion. The usual caveats apply: I was a stranger in a strange land, there is good reason for folks not to talk about certain things, my French is poor and I know no Dioula nor Mor whatsoever. But a number of individuals did openly complain about things political and otherwise in my presence, and one of my girlfriends longtime friends with whom I had a number of (interpreter-aided) conversations had been inspired to join the LAT after Sankara came to power, viz., was of a nationalist bent and had some knowledge of things military.

The fellow in blue in the photo below is the head of the Burkinab gendarmerie. On the one hand you can look at the fact that CT training involves the gendarmerie as heartening because it would seem to indicate a knowledge of the duties of that institution. On the other hand you can look at the paunch on Colonel Traor and wonder how seriously those duties are taken at the highest levels.

Africans love training - especially those who work in Government employment. They love it when the training is free and comes with perks. African Governments love it when the US bears the cost of training and supplying their militaries because (a) it keeps them busy and less prone to mischief and (b) helps defray the defense budget, thus providing more money for embezzlement.

In the NGO community, this is called "capacity building", it normally translates to endless conferences and seminars and no tangible outcomes. This seems to be the military equivalent of that trend.

Secondly, do you know who exactly you are training? Some of the worst human rights abusers in Africa are currently being trained by the US military. The US military automatically becomes guilty by association. Have you done a proper independent audit of civilian-military relations in the host country before you put your feet there?

http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Ima...29971734_5.jpg

The picture above shows Nigerian security operatives killing "suspected Boko Haram" militants execution style in 2009. Many experts attribute the present spate of Boko Haram activity to this event. Are these your future trainees?

Who constitutes the military? Is it more of an ethnic militia than a national army?

Burkina Faso is a dictatorship - Blaise Campaore has been in power since 1987. People there are less likely to speak their minds to strangers and the news tends to be sanitised. In African nations with freer media like Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya and South Africa attitudes to Africom are more vocal and more antagonistic.

These nations are important because they set the tone for public discussion in Africa.

As I said earlier, Africom is still under the radar. But when it blows in the open, expect to hear an earful.

I am sorry to say this, but I suspect Americans are naive and this is very unfortunate. The French and the British are more cynical and tend to read Africa much better than Americans, because they have more experience dealing with Africa. Both the French and the British are either keeping their activities discreet or are tend to do short sharp interventions with measurable outcomes (e.g. Sierra Leone).

The "Hearts and Minds" model does not work, it did not work in Iraq and it did not work in Afghanistan. It will also not work in Africa. "Wallets and Stomachs" will always beat "Hearts and Minds". The appeal of America is the economic opportunities it provides, not the touchy-feely stuff.
11-15-2011
Misifus

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Africans love training - especially those who work in Government employment. They love it when the training is free and comes with perks.

You got that right! Especially if the training involves a trip somewhere nice. Same with the oil industry. Problem is they [the Africans] don't seem to learn anything. It's either from indolence or stupidity, but I suspect both. It's like trying to train rocks.

Quote:

African Governments love it when the US bears the cost...thus providing more money for embezzlement.

Yep, same with oil companies. American oil companies pay, so that more Africans can loot.

Quote:

In the NGO community...

Another set of looters as far as I am concerned.

Quote:

I am sorry to say this, but I suspect Americans are naive and this is very unfortunate.

Yes, and actually Americans are too nice.

Quote:

The "Hearts and Minds" model does not work, it did not work in Iraq and it did not work in Afghanistan. It will also not work in Africa

Yep, we should have focused more on a Smash & Trash approach in those countries, i.e., punitive expeditions. Cheaper and earns more respect.
11-15-2011
ganulv

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Africans love training - especially those who work in Government employment. They love it when the training is free and comes with perks. African Governments love it when the US bears the cost of training and supplying their militaries because (a) it keeps them busy and less prone to mischief and (b) helps defray the defense budget, thus providing more money for embezzlement.

Ergo my comment above regarding the well-fed gendarme.

Quote:

Burkina Faso is a dictatorship - Blaise Campaore has been in power since 1987.

Oh, come on. Just because Blaise picks the guy running against him you’re going to call the place a dictatorship? :p

Quote:

People there are less likely to speak their minds to strangers and the news tends to be sanitised.

As stated previously :rolleyes:, the usual caveats apply: I was a stranger in a strange land, there is good reason for folks not to talk about certain things, my French is poor and I know no Dioula nor Mòoré whatsoever. But a number of individuals did openly complain about things political and otherwise in my presence, and one of my girlfriend’s longtime friends with whom I had a number of (interpreter-aided) conversations had been inspired to join the LAT after Sankara came to power, viz., was of a nationalist bent and had some knowledge of things military.

Sanitized or not, news is only going to make so much of an impact when less than a third of the population is literate as is the case in Burkina and Mali.

Quote:

In African nations with freer media like Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya and South Africa attitudes to Africom are more vocal and more antagonistic.

The media in the United States is the freest but most of its content has the value of teats on a boar. I don’t doubt that media outlets contribute to public opinion regarding AFRICOM, but do they contribute to informed opinion regarding AFRICOM?
11-15-2011
Stan

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

These are early days. When the US military assumes a wider role in Africa (as it will - the dynamics of the Military Industrial Complex will push it there), it will suffer the same fate as the French. You are getting there pretty fast. Cooperation with the local strong man on "counter-terrorism" increases the likelihood that he will be in a position to make a demand you cannot refuse to whack whoever he labels as "subversives", "militants" or "internal security threats". The US military will VERY EASILY be drawn into the numerous inter-ethnic and inter-religious crises that characterise Sub-Saharan Africa.

Given what I feel is a mistake for the military in general, I agree with you. But, as you are only too well aware of, the US Military does not dictate where and when it goes. The US Military however does not function even remotely like the French and I seriously doubt we will want much to do with colonization. The US Military will not be easily drawn into anything - they could however be sent in when politicians dictate said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

We are opposed to Africom, not because we don't like pictures of US soldiers cuddling cute African babies, because we can see a little bit further down the line. I give it ten years, max.

I never in my years did that. I don’t get off on public affairs. I’m glad you and others from you generation can in fact see 10 years down the road. It certainly beats the current situations that plague your country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Secondly, as trivial as it sounds, names matters. Africom is only marginally better than "Afrika Korps".

Indeed a very hopeless name, patch and thoughtless creation. But then, I know some of those people and we’ve had some good jokes among the Africa Hands. We are a long ways from getting our people culturally aware. It’s a two-way street Jaja - We’re not alone !

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Thirdly, we are treated to the spectacle of Africom organising everything from veterinary clinics to pandemic workshops. It points to a deeply confused foreign policy establishment in Washington. We know the Peace Corps and USAID and we can smell a fish a mile away when the US military attempts to do the job of both these organisations. Africa is neither Afghanistan nor Iraq and the Peace Corps and USAID can do their jobs pretty well in most of Africa.

I just said that in my previous post. As for the PC and AID, that’s their bailiwick and I do not support military being used in non-traditional roles. There are lessons that the PC could teach our military and there are areas where AID should be cut – what a waste of money IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Fourthly, why are you needlessly militarising your Africa policy? Sometimes it is difficult to understand who speaks for the US in Africa - is it the local ambassador or Carter Ham? This is because Carter Ham addresses the same topics as the local ambassador (counter-terrorism, investment, trade, energy, education, polio eradication, aids prevention etc). He is also better funded, treated with more respect by congress and reports to a different boss (Secretary of Defense).

I’ve read and continue to read African concerns over AFRICOM and her intentions. It however should not be difficult to determine who in country represents the POTUS. The Ambassador is the POTUS’ representative. Glad to hear that both the AMB and Mr Ham address the same subjects though – wasn’t long ago we couldn’t do that without some riot act ! Mr Ham can’t be better funded than DOS; it’s the same pot of money and State drives the train. Sounds like the confusion is on your end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

You had/have great tools at your disposal (USAID, Peace Corps, the defunct USIS), but you seem to be deliberately de-funding them or emasculating them in favour of the military. This is not the America I used to know.

I’m no finance wizard but I doubt that AID and PC programs were liquidated to support military programs in Africa. Better to ask AID or the PC why they left. USIS has a new name, they are not defunct. A little research and you’ll turn up those fellas just fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Fifthly, this thing neatly coincides with the rise of Chinese influence in Africa. A more activist China could very easily set up a Chinese Africom. You won't be able to oppose it then because you'd have set up a bad precedent (the same thing applies to how you use drones - consider your drone usage policy very carefully). Quite quickly, all the best intentions of Africom could degenerate into hot wars of influence between the Chinese and Americans in Africa.

We’ve gone way off the deep end here but I’ll entertain your temper a tad longer. I could give a rat’s Alpha what the Chinese do and I have no control over drone usage; They are kind of cool toys though. Please check out our extensive threads on China in Africa and direct your thoughts there as time permits you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

It might not happen today, but I can see it happening in ten years time.

What’s with the ten year thing anyway ? Your projected life expectancy according to UNICEF is 48 years. I hope you not already 39 because I’d really like to know what you envision happening 10 from now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Finally, if the advent of Africom was balanced with a push for diplomacy, cultural understanding, trade and investment, it would be more palatable. No US Commerce secretary has attended the AGOA summit in ten years and there is something slightly disturbing (to those of us that admire the US) to see the US expend diplomatic energy trying to site bases on African soil while the Chinese are practically being begged to site free trade zones on Africa (they are building a 16,500 hectare free trade zone in Lagos).

Fair question that I cannot answer - wrong department. I do have this link however with the SECSTATE addressing your concerns and the details regarding AGOA, etc. Sounds complicated however :eek:

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Uncle Mo was a megalomaniac and a kleptocrat who destroyed Zaire. He is a bad example. In more "moderate collegiate" regimes like Nigeria under military rule, the power base is more diffuse (similar tribes - Northern and Muslim tend to dominate).

Consider Southern Sudan - Southern Sudan is incredibly diverse, yet is different in many respects (culture, religion) from the North. Southern Sudan will not be a Switzerland in the near term, but the relationship between the rulers and the governed is bound to be better than what obtained under Omar Bashir. When tribes follow different religious traditions (Islam/Christianity) these differences tend to be brought to sharp relief, but when outsiders have trouble identifying the distinguishing characteristics of one tribe over another (all bloody Africans), the differences and similarities are less appreciated.

Congo DRC is a lot more similar to Sudan than you imagine. Tribes may speak different languages, but have similar cultures. If you share a similar culture and religious tradition, it is much easier to reach an accommodation than if you don't. If you look at Nigeria, the major crises have been between the Islamised tribes of the North and the Christian tribes of the Middle Belt. Inter-tribal violence in Southern Nigeria is minimal, because cultures are similar and conflict resolution mechanisms tend to be similar.

Until you discovered I actually spent a great deal of time in Sub-Sahara and speak the local lingo you were fine with telling me how we failed. To dump all this on the US Military now is Bravo Sierra and requires no answer. Thank ganulv for my new abilities at remaining diplomatic (I wasn't before and you may actually break me of my current and pathetic habits).
11-15-2011
Stan

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Africans love training - especially those who work in Government employment. They love it when the training is free and comes with perks. African Governments love it when the US bears the cost of training and supplying their militaries because (a) it keeps them busy and less prone to mischief and (b) helps defray the defense budget, thus providing more money for embezzlement.

Precisely why I have been against dumping money into a hole. There are however great examples of African doctors and pilots that sadly left for greener pastures. A significant problem all over the world when talent leaves home forever. There needs to be binding contracts that force those back for 4 years in their own country. This is not a free ride and the politics that back these programs were intended to pay the system back. A concept that Africans generally disregard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

In the NGO community, this is called "capacity building", it normally translates to endless conferences and seminars and no tangible outcomes. This seems to be the military equivalent of that trend.

Again, you're dead on the mark. However, some countries evolve and end up being a provider of security and helping out their neighbors. That's the purpose of the program.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Secondly, do you know who exactly you are training? Some of the worst human rights abusers in Africa are currently being trained by the US military. The US military automatically becomes guilty by association. Have you done a proper independent audit of civilian-military relations in the host country before you put your feet there?

The vetting process begins in country and without assistance from the host government, the process and intent are a waste of time. Good point !

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

The picture above shows Nigerian security operatives killing "suspected Boko Haram" militants execution style in 2009. Many experts attribute the present spate of Boko Haram activity to this event. Are these your future trainees?

You know how many executions I witnessed in 12 years ? I was literally invited as a guest along with other military. Your point is what ? With all those cell phones and decades later I expected very little would change and you insisted the dynamics have. Seems not. Are you trying to say the US Military teach executions ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

I am sorry to say this, but I suspect Americans are naive and this is very unfortunate. The French and the British are more cynical and tend to read Africa much better than Americans, because they have more experience dealing with Africa. Both the French and the British are either keeping their activities discreet or are tend to do short sharp interventions with measurable outcomes (e.g. Sierra Leone).

The "Hearts and Minds" model does not work, it did not work in Iraq and it did not work in Afghanistan. It will also not work in Africa. "Wallets and Stomachs" will always beat "Hearts and Minds". The appeal of America is the economic opportunities it provides, not the touchy-feely stuff.

Looking for sympathy ? I'd prefer the money went into feeding our own and taking care of our national debt. Barking up the wrong tree Jaja.
11-15-2011
KingJaja

Quote:

The media in the United States is the freest but most of its content has the value of teats on a boar. I don’t doubt that media outlets contribute to public opinion regarding AFRICOM, but do they contribute to informed opinion regarding AFRICOM?

That's not the point, perception is reality. All the "Als" - Al Qaeda, Al Jazeera and Al Sharpton realise that. That this simple fact is lost on the USG is tragic and difficult to understand.

A textbook case of "how not to do it" was the clumsy announcement of Africom's formation in 2008 and the equally more clumsy search for basing rights in Africa. These two events created a buzz in the local media and generated a lot of negative publicity. Today, the Africom brand is toxic.

Libya didn't help matter either (the reasoning behind this in Sub-Saharan Africa is complex, I don't want to get into that now).

Secondly, Africa in 2011 is slightly different from Africa in 1980 or Africa in the nineties. The USG still behaves as if nothing has changed in Africa since then. Africa is better connected and more democratic and the ability of the small but growing middle class to shape public opinion is rising.

Let me tell you how it goes. You send a US military civil affairs team to my village. My cousin meets you and is happy to collect freebies from you. When you leave, he calls me on his cellphone and tells me that some white men in military uniform came to visit him. I explain to him who you are (i.e. my understanding of Africom), but I tell him not to disclose anything I said to you but to watch you carefully.

These kind of transactions tend to happen more frequently than you imagine. So it is important to understand / appreciate the links between even the most remote rural villages and the urban centers.

Thirdly, you are Westerners. We've had 500 hundred years of a shared bloody history. We will never fully trust you (sad truth). African leaders instinctively retreat to "anti-imperialism" the same way Arab leaders retreat to "anti-semitism" when the going gets tough. In the Muslim parts of Sub-Saharan Africa, you have two counts against you (you support Israel and the residual animosity from the slave trade / colonialism).

This is why the USG's misreading of the complex factors that shape public opinion here and its failure to sell its Africa policy to the African public is baffling. There are so many crazy stories flying up and down about America's intentions in SS Africa. If they are not countered, they could do real damage.

It is the job of the US State Department and Africom to contribute to informed opinion on Africom. If you cannot "encourage" prominent columnists / bloggers to write favourable stories, then you shouldn't be in the business of public diplomacy.
11-15-2011
KingJaja

Quote:

You know how many executions I witnessed in 12 years ? I was literally invited as a guest along with other military. Your point is what ? With all those cell phones and decades later I expected very little would change and you insisted the dynamics have. Seems not. Are you trying to say the US Military teach executions ?

I've witnessed a fair amount of executions and "necklacing" in my short life, but it doesn't make it right. These people were rounded up at random and shot in the back without due process. I have seen the video of the execution and it is horrifying.

I never said that the US military should teach executions.

Anyway, I think I've spent enough time on this site. Cheers.
11-15-2011
Misifus

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

...Let me tell you how it goes. You send a US military civil affairs team to my village. My cousin meets you and is happy to collect freebies from you. When you leave, he calls me on his cellphone and tells me that some white men in military uniform came to visit him. I explain to him who you are (i.e. my understanding of Africom), but I tell him not to disclose anything I said to you but to watch you carefully.

These kind of transactions tend to happen more frequently than you imagine...

You are so correct. I've been telling people for years that's what it's really like. They laugh at me.

The problem with the USG is that they do not believe in the duplicity of the very people they are trying to help. Africans have been screwing each other over for centuries, and there does not seem to be any tendency for that to stop. Personally, I'm happy to buy oils and minerals from y'all and from whoever is in charge at the time, but as for making African culture progress into modernity, y'all can do that without our help, either peacefully or with the continued internal strife that y'all seem to enjoy so much.
11-15-2011
Stan

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

A textbook case of "how not to do it" was the clumsy announcement of Africom's formation in 2008 and the equally more clumsy search for basing rights in Africa. These two events created a buzz in the local media and generated a lot of negative publicity. Today, the Africom brand is toxic.

Funny how we each perceive this situation so differently. Care to cover how the Africans were more concerned over how much the USG wanted to pay for basing rights?

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Libya didn't help matter either (the reasoning behind this in Sub-Saharan Africa is complex, I don't want to get into that now).

Is Libya now part of Sub Sahara ? One of the overall reasons the US took back seat and forced the "knowledgeable" Europeans into the fray. Ironic how it turned out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Let me tell you how it goes. You send a US military civil affairs team to my village. My cousin meets you and is happy to collect freebies from you. When you leave, he calls me on his cellphone and tells me that some white men in military uniform came to visit him. I explain to him who you are (i.e. my understanding of Africom), but I tell him not to disclose anything I said to you but to watch you carefully.

These kind of transactions tend to happen more frequently than you imagine. So it is important to understand / appreciate the links between even the most remote rural villages and the urban centers.

I doubt ganulv has been involved in CA or PSYOPS in Africa, but I'm certain that your rendition is hardly palatable. CA ops rarely just wander out into some village without the express permission of both the Embassy and host government's approval, and more unlikely that they just turn up handing out gifts. Trust me; been there, done that, and, still am doing said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Thirdly, you are Westerners. We've had 500 hundred years of a shared bloody history. We will never fully trust you (sad truth). African leaders instinctively retreat to "anti-imperialism" the same way Arab leaders retreat to "anti-semitism" when the going gets tough. In the Muslim parts of Sub-Saharan Africa, you have two counts against you (you support Israel and the residual animosity from the slave trade / colonialism).

This is why the USG's misreading of the complex factors that shape public opinion here and its failure to sell its Africa policy to the African public is baffling. There are so many crazy stories flying up and down about America's intentions in SS Africa. If they are not countered, they could do real damage.

It is the job of the US State Department and Africom to contribute to informed opinion on Africom. If you cannot "encourage" prominent columnists / bloggers to write favourable stories, then you shouldn't be in the business of public diplomacy.

Quite an agenda for one evening !
11-15-2011
Stan

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

I've witnessed a fair amount of executions and "necklacing" in my short life, but it doesn't make it right. These people were rounded up at random and shot in the back without due process. I have seen the video of the execution and it is horrifying.

I never said that the US military should teach executions.

Anyway, I think I've spent enough time on this site. Cheers.

Have a safe trip !
11-15-2011
omarali50

I think some of the tone while talking to a middle class African is unfortunate and unnecessarily patronizing. But whatever, I just wanted to jump in with a very tangential observation but one that bugs me whenever I see it: Stan said "life expectancy is 48, I hope you are not 39". I know it was mostly a joke, but versions of this are heard all the time and can be a sign that people are misled about what these statistics mean. Stan may know and may just be joking, but I will jump in anyway with a lecture:
Life expectancy AT BIRTH is the average any baby in a given population is expected to live. If 10% of babies die before age 1 (very common in some places even today) and 25% die by age 5, those guys all get counted and the average goes down...a lot. In a population with life expectancy 48, 48 is the average when everyone is counted at birth..including all the babies that died at age 1. It is NOT the typical age at which an adult may expect to shuffle off this mortal coil.
If someone happens to be 39, he or she has already passed the big cull in early childhood and made it to adult life. His or her life expectancy AT THAT POINT is not 48. For a well fed urban middle class person, its probably in the 60s. For someone with long lived parents, its even higher.
People sometimes say about a few centuries ago: "in those days, the average person was dead by age 30". NOT TRUE. The average adult lived longer than that even in underdeveloped countries. That's why nobody found it remarkable that Mohammed died at 63 in an Arab population where average life expectancy at birth was maybe 33. Thats why its the "biblical three score years and ten" and not the "biblical 2 score years", which is what life expectancy probably was in Judea and Samarea in those days.
Very high rates of violence, disease and malnutrition may bring the usual adult life span down a lot in some hunter-gatherer societies but the typical adult in the middle ages or in Roman Palestine or in modern (very underdeveloped) Africa still does not conk off at 40 or even 48. The average at birth is 40 or 48 or whatever.
I know its completely off topic, but there it is.
11-15-2011
Misifus

The problem with MAAG type programs and political assistance programs is that the participants only deal with others of their own type in a given host nation. Hence military guys from the US deal with military guys from the target nation, politicans deal with politicians, etc. There is much that is not revealed between these parties, so KingJaja is correct in that respect. In other words, the host nation counterpart is often engaged in a masquerade. As an example...

...I have gone into countries with a US passport, and I will hear how great Americans are. I can go into the same country with a non-US, 3rd World passport and I will still hear how great Americans are, but as soon as the Americans leave the room, those same people will comment on how they dislike Americans. See what I mean? I've seen this too many times now to consider it coincidence.

With regards to industry, it provides better insight into the host nation culture, but not much better. Those in an industry deal with the counterparts of their industry, but they also deal with the local people since many are embedded with the true economy of the host nation. Hence they get a better perspective on what the true pulse is going on within a given host country, then say what some diplomat or MAAG type would get, or CIA idiot. The truth of the matter is that international businessmen/workers make better "Global Scouts" than those who come from some sort of officialdom like DOS, DOD, etc., who actually trained to be such.

So what KingJaja says about sending the CA guy to his village is true. I've lived it, in and out of uniform ;)
11-15-2011
Misifus

Quote:

Originally Posted by omarali50

...Stan said "life expectancy is 48, I hope you are not 39". I know it was mostly a joke, but versions of this are heard all the time and can be a sign that people are misled about what these statistics mean...

Probably was a joke, but have you embedded yourself down there for any period of time? They die young down there. Here's an example.

I'm in Angola, I went away for a few weeks. When I get back...

Q. "Where's Joao?"
A. "He died."
Q. "What?!"
A. "He died of appendicitis."
Q. "Huh?"
A. "He goes home to his village on his days off. No doctors over there."

Joao was in his thirties. I have countless stories like this.
11-15-2011
Stan

Quote:

Originally Posted by omarali50

Stan may know and may just be joking, but I will jump in anyway with a lecture:

Thanks Omarli. It was just a joke of sorts given the context.

Just for the record, those were not my words nor calculations and yes, the link from UNICEF does not take into account all the variables that you carefully listed.
11-15-2011
Steve Blair

Warning shot, folks. Keep it civil and go after issues, not individuals. Thanks.
11-15-2011
Misifus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Blair

Warning shot, folks. Keep it civil and go after issues, not individuals. Thanks.

Thanks.
11-15-2011
KingJaja

Quote:

Yes, industry has always been ahead of the military and has the cash to back that up and train on. Better insight ? How's that ? My 12 years in Sub-Sahara dealt only with low paying locals. Not embedded but certainly the real economy that you speak of. I know that most embassy staff are content with staying at the embassy and going home, but that's not everyone. As far as officialdom training goes, that would depend on your position and ability to learn a foreign language. DOS and DOD don't spend time on weak students. So, I assume your global scout status means you speak at least two languages and to the level you could never be ID'd as an American (for starters). I also assume you routinely hang out where most white Westerners fear to go and get along with the locals as if you live next door. Those are my credentials from Africa and Estonia, and, I assume yours.

Stan,

I need to come in here.

You are the exception, not the rule. I met a few of your type whilst growing up. You have an ear to the ground and have a good appreciation of what is going on.

However, your experience does not apply to the vast majority of Americans in Africa.

I still stand by my previous comment. The visit of white men (especially soldiers) to African villages is not a common event and will attract a combination of excitement and suspicion. Africans tend to fear or despise soldiers (for good reason) and the fact that you are (a) foreign and (b) seemly good-intentioned does not entirely negate that feeling.

After your visit, the villagers will contact trusted and knowledgeable relatives to make sense of the day's events. These people usually reside in cities and whatever understanding they have of the wider US policy in Africa normally carries the day.

The visit will also be discussed during the town/village meetings, and processed by the local ethnic champion/"big man". You won't be privy to either of these events.

This is Africa, speaking the local language opens the door, but it does not give you the full picture of what is going on behind the scenes. I speak my local language fluently, but I won't have a hang of what is going on unless I attend frequent village / ethnic meetings that are usually closed to outsiders.

(This is why I wonder why you don't use your African diaspora more, they have a better understanding of Africa than most non-"African" Americans, attract less attention and can detect BS from local politicians at the speed of light. Anyway, I digress).

I also agree that folks in Industry have a better understanding than the military. For example, no one understands the Niger Delta better than Oil and Gas people. They even have dedicated departments (community affairs) to deal with the Niger Delta people.

This is an area where the Chinese may have an advantage over Americans. Their economic footprint may be smaller, but their business people are more dispersed, closer to the ground, more likely to interact with the locals and more likely to speak the local language (Pidgin, Hausa, Lingala etc). If Beijing decides to use them for intelligence gathering, they'll have an extremely useful database of relevant information.

Misifus,

Now to the question of dying at 48. I won't reveal my age, but I am not yet 39. My grandmother died last week - she was 87 and my mother is still going strong at 65 and my dad is even older. I have an uncle who is above 80 and he still drives himself to work.

Angola recently emerged from a devastating civil war. Do you really expect an Angolan to have the same life expectancy as a middle class Nigerian? Or is Africa one large undifferentiated mass of well, "bloody Africans". You should know better than that.
11-15-2011
Stan

Good evening, Jaja !

It's late so excuse my brief response.

Agreed, there are few that spend sufficient time learning while in Africa. The Army has a FAO program and that has seen some tough times with personnel. I am happy to say I know all the success stories though.

One of the things you mentioned and Misifus echoed grabbed my attention. Jaja, Eucom or AFRICOM are but tools and if America and/or China are intent on your minerals those tools are part of the deal.

It's a reality check, and part of the bargain is we either play with the big boys, or, we bow out.

In closing, I still agree with you - Nigeria is best left to take care of her problems because there are few in the west that could comprehend how complex the situation is and how to fix it. Africans compromise every day as a matter of routine and the west wants a sweet deal.

Natural resources is a business with no clear parameters and the language is cash. Too simple for any government to conceive.

I'm off to bed !

Regards, Stan

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Stan,

I need to come in here.

You are the exception, not the rule. I met a few of your type whilst growing up. You have an ear to the ground and have a good appreciation of what is going on.

However, your experience does not apply to the vast majority of Americans in Africa.

I still stand by my previous comment. The visit of white men (especially soldiers) to African villages is not a common event and will attract a combination of excitement and suspicion. Africans tend to fear or despise soldiers (for good reason) and the fact that you are (a) foreign and (b) seemly good-intentioned does not entirely negate that feeling.

After your visit, the villagers will contact trusted and knowledgeable relatives to make sense of the day's events. These people usually reside in cities and whatever understanding they have of the wider US policy in Africa normally carries the day.

The visit will also be discussed during the town/village meetings, and processed by the local ethnic champion/"big man". You won't be privy to either of these events.

This is Africa, speaking the local language opens the door, but it does not give you the full picture of what is going on behind the scenes. I speak my local language fluently, but I won't have a hang of what is going on unless I attend frequent village / ethnic meetings that are usually closed to outsiders.

(This is why I wonder why you don't use your African diaspora more, they have a better understanding of Africa than most non-"African" Americans, attract less attention and can detect BS from local politicians at the speed of light. Anyway, I digress).

I also agree that folks in Industry have a better understanding than the military. For example, no one understands the Niger Delta better than Oil and Gas people. They even have dedicated departments (community affairs) to deal with the Niger Delta people.

This is an area where the Chinese may have an advantage over Americans. Their economic footprint may be smaller, but their business people are more dispersed, closer to the ground, more likely to interact with the locals and more likely to speak the local language (Pidgin, Hausa, Lingala etc). If Beijing decides to use them for intelligence gathering, they'll have an extremely useful database of relevant information.

Misifus,

Now to the question of dying at 48. I won't reveal my age, but I am not yet 39. My grandmother died last week - she was 87 and my mother is still going strong at 65 and my dad is even older. I have an uncle who is above 80 and he still drives himself to work.

Angola recently emerged from a devastating civil war. Do you really expect an Angolan to have the same life expectancy as a middle class Nigerian? Or is Africa one large undifferentiated mass of well, "bloody Africans". You should know better than that.
11-16-2011
Dayuhan

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJaja

Anyway, I think I've spent enough time on this site. Cheers.

I for one hope you stick around and contribute. We could use a more diverse base of perception here. Of course people will always get cranky and argue, but in the process some interesting stuff comes out.
11-16-2011
KingJaja

Misfus,

Sorry for the mix up.

I doubt you'll notice one (middle class Nigeria). In my experience, most expatriates tend to hang around each other and live in very secluded locations (Victoria Island, Lekki, Ikoyi), they don't mix with the locals, so don't observe trends.

Nigeria has one of the largest middle class populations in Africa. As a proportion of the entire population, it is small, but it tends to be large in absolute numbers.

A total of 210,798 private vehicles were registered in Lagos alone in 2009 (Lagos Government Statistics). These numbers are significant, and they point to a large number of people with enough disposable income to buy a car with cash (we don't have a lot of credit options down here).

Show 50 post(s) from this thread on one page