http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jxid-Wwk4Zk
Any comments?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jxid-Wwk4Zk
Any comments?
It's kinda like bringing Sniper training to the masses, great concept, still working on the execution.
Currently it is a MTT training package that is part of the PTP. GTB is trying to work it into a simulation, along the same lines as Defense of Duffer's Drift.
Thanks Nichols- what are your thoughts on the aspects of profiling and tracking, and of every Marine being issued a pair of binos?
Don't say SNIPER!! The skills jerkers that protect the edifice of sniping will go nuts!! Don't you know it's a sacred art. Don't you know you have to pass the "Course."Quote:
Originally Posted by nichols
I found this out to my cost when I presented my ideas on Patrol Based Infantry training at the Royal United Services Institute three years ago.
When I said recruits should be trained in a way "similar" to snipers, there was uproar. When I next went to the Infantry NCO school at Brecon, three or four instructors, said they were "insulted" by my suggestion.
Combat Hunter looks good. It's not what I would do, or the way I would do it, but it's sure as hell better than nothing. Kudos to the men who got it running. Methinks I see the hand of H John Poole in there somewhere!
I hear you. I view sniping and tracking as a little similar in that there are those in both camps that peddle the idea that they are "dark arts" relying on equal parts magic and incredible skill. There are others however that take a more pragmatic approach and are teaching those on the ground how to do both.
While both are arts/sciences that one can devote a lifetime to; the basics of a stable shooting platform, range estimation, a smooth trigger press, stalking, IDing and following spoor, and reducing your own spoor, are all skills that can be acquired without mystery in a relatively short space of time.
They are two areas that knowedge of will have a dramatic effect on lethality and survivability. I therefore hope we see more education in both.
My dumb a$$ can only call it as I see it;) Got the t-shirt and wore it for 4 years during the best part of my career.Quote:
Originally Posted by William F. Owen
I need to add this in; I have seen many T-shirt wearers that could shoot consistant V rings on the range all the way out to 1000 yards but they had no field craft skills what so ever. These 'snipers' are better off joining the service's rifle match teams. They usually don't provide actionable intel to the Commander nor get the target because they just don't get it.
I spent $460 on a pair of Steiners back in 87 as a Sergeant.....that should pretty much tell you howI feel about every Marine being issued a pair of binos.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Clark
There are aspects of the profiling that Combat Hunter doesn't cover that I would like to see in the program. The profiling and tracking covers badguys in the immediate vicinity and is human centric. I would like to see something along the lines of 'terrain profiling.' This stand off capability tied in with a good pair of binos (bino use training is critical) will allow the Marine to get instead the badguys OODA-Loop before the badguy realizes that his OODA has been compromised.
If you like the Steiners you should find a pair of Vortex Vultures or one of their other high end binos.Quote:
Originally Posted by nichols
I do think that the sniping, hunting, tracking aspects of training soldiers and marines is over rated. I've got lots of acquaintances that can sneak up on cervids who are way more attached to their environment than any human. I do think that culture in the Americas is being eroded much like it has in Europe.
to compensate for that erosion which is mostly due to urbanization?Quote:
Originally Posted by selil
Thanks for the info...but I'm married with three kids, I'm a Former Action Guy (FAG) that is more concerned about getting invisible line bi-focals:DQuote:
Originally Posted by selil
Good point, it really is about situational awareness. It's really easy to be distracted by the right hand as your opponent's left hand coldcocks you.:oQuote:
Originally Posted by selil
That is one of my fears concerning binos, scheme of manuever and other aspects of Daniel Boonery that causes people to miss the boat on opportunities.
Spending so much time on the binos that you miss the badguy coming up the left flank and kissing you on the right cheek. Not understanding the environmental situational awareness to the point where you don't know what to do so you throw away decision making and lock step in line with the scheme of manuever that was written before you crossed the LOD and probably didn't take into account the current situation that you find yourself in.
No, too much time on internet forums:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ken White
Sorry Ken....the door was wide open:D
Quote:
Originally Posted by nichols
You wanna know what I was doing in '87? hahahaha
Okay Brant.......you ain't no spring chicken either:DQuote:
Originally Posted by BayonetBrant
I think urbanization and a lack of activity in rural sports is a large factor. Riding your mountain bike on rail right of ways is great exercise but it is not wood craft. You have to break past the forrest edge, get into the critter trails, and seek out your prey. Sorry if "prey" offends anybody, but your intent is to hunt down, and kill something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken White
A story not to offend or distract from the discussion...
I have twin 8 year old boys. We've been shooting archery since they were a right around 4. For the last few years we would go shoot 3d which is foam animals in a variety of woodland settings. They got pretty good and figuring out kill zones, picking the targets out of the terrain, etc.. But, I didn't realize how well until we were on a long trip.
Driving down the interstate in the morning I pointed out a few deer along the Interstate and said we might see a lot more. The two hyper-kinetic-bouncing-monsters sat totally still for hours watching for, FINDING, and determining distances. I don't think using my laser range finder I could have been any closer than they were getting.
Now when we hike through the wild-life preserve behind our house I have started showing them spore and even tracking critters. I'll likely take them to Texas this winter to hunt white tail and hawgs.
Just like my dad did.
I am currently dealing with a tug of war over a suite of counter-IED / counter-sniper equipment that was developed and fielded by JIEDDO, with snipers in mind.
We currently own the gear, and are being told that we have to endure a redistribution based on the number of qualified snipers between us and another task force.
The funny thing is, the equipment can be used as an enabler for reconnaissance and surveillance missions in general as much as it may be for kinetic sniper activities (of which I can't fathom happening around our parts right now). Still, my opponents in the wrestling match are still clinging to the sniper bit, as if it were some magical dark art like someone mentioned earlier.
Just because JIEDDO "says so", don't necessarily make it so...
Dark art indeed. I am a "sniper sceptic", but a "close precision engagement" advocate. Some Snipers are their own worst enemy. They have used an entirely invented victim under dog status to pervert what is/was useful and carry it into a realm of creeping excellence.Quote:
Originally Posted by jcustis
If anyone really takes exception to my views, feel free to start another thread.
Haha...Don't get me started about the snipers who whine about unit commanders who mis-employ them because they are "risk averse" or are simply ignorant of the ways of the sniper...Quote:
Originally Posted by William F. Owen
I always go back to my points of 1) you are often mis-employed because you can't effectively articulate yourself in terms of goals, recommendations, and objectives; 2) you often tend to be no-talent assclowns with a penchant for glossing over details even though your training in the art of planning is some of the best to be had; and 3) you aren't supermen, so come down off your high horse stud.
The flip side of "dark arts" is that in an arena of "law of war" where proportionality and precision are hand in hand the sniper has a highly constrained mission. Since the sniper is by definition highly precise target selection must also be highly precise. If you have bad actors in an environment it may be much easier (and legal) to employ air-power or artillery with as much precision and less proportionality as suppression.
Which is why exactly why I see "Close precision engagement" as something that is very useful. Make no mistake. CPE is Sniping, but it's Quaker-Protestant sniping as opposed to Roman Catholic High Church Sniping, as we see today. (not trying to offend the Christians, but my hope my analogy holds water.... or wine!)Quote:
Originally Posted by selil
I get the CPE analogy William, just as I get the use of the term DDM. Interesting though that we are now forced to invent terms to make the "dark art of shooting small birds" more politically acceptable...
I'm sorry but; I look at this and think "Marines can shoot LAZER BEAMS...FROM THERE EYES!!!". I think the the situational awarness and body language aspects are probably very useful, but some of it may not be the best use of training time IMNSHO.
Reed
Don't get me wrong. I would love to use the word "Sniper" - but it has become so loaded, with "dark art" connotations, that it has ceased to be useful in progressing the need.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Clark
...and I'm no Sniper, but I have shot a snipe! My brothers still pissed as it was a little close to his head at the time!