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Russian Bronze Statue in Estonia
Quote:
Jan 25, 2007, TBT staff
On Wednesday, the upper house of the Russian parliament, the Federation Council, passed a resolution asking Estonia to halt its plans to remove a Soviet-Era Red Army monument in Tallinn. “The Federation Council is highly concerned over the adoption of the law on the protection of war graves in Estonia,” the Russian news agency Interfax quoted the document as saying.
This was a major accomplishment for Estonia's new government. The general population was up in arms over the annual tradition of flowering the monument. Dressed in former USSR military uniforms and parading in the general area with Russian flags, as if the Russians still think of themselves as Estonia's liberators. Pretty bold using the name liberator to an army which, after driving the Germans out, stayed on to loot, rape and commit grave crimes against Estonians.
These Russians are actually Estonian citizens (according to their passports that is), who most of the time enjoy their lifestyle in Estonia. Must be that, cause they don't seem to want to return to the Motherland :eek: )
Quote:
The leader of the Nashi (Russian) movement, Vasily Yakemenko, told the media present that if the bronze statue of a Soviet soldier in Tallinn is removed, then Nashi activists will start going to Estonia and take turns standing guard on the monument's former site garbed in military uniform.
While the Russian Federation Council claimed that tearing the statue down would create more divisions in society, the Estonian Prime Minister defended the decision and said just the opposite.
“What respect are we talking about if crowds keep treading on the grave, hold rallies, drink vodka or wait for a trolleybus there? This goes against Estonians' idea of the place of eternal rest of the dead,” he said.
The prime minister added that the bronze statue of a Soviet soldier at Tonismagi in Tallinn has become a monument which is dividing the nation instead of uniting and consolidating it.
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Stan Reber says:
"These Russians are actually Estonian citizens (according to their passports that is), who most of the time enjoy their lifestyle in Estonia. Must be that, cause they don't seem to want to return to the Motherland "
Stan, you must not forget the backround of most of those people. Most of them arrived to Estonian territory after USSR troops chased away German troops and started their own occupation. At first those Russians manned security organisations posts (read state terror organisations), but later came labour migrants to man that huge industrial complex, which was initiated from central planners from Moscow. One of the reasons for that migration was fact that thousands of Estonians were sent (mainly elite who survived first deportation in 1940 to Siberia and deadly II WW) to Siberian camps. All of the identy of those migrants was built around the II WW tiumph. Most of them have no idea about real history of Estonia (and I suppose that they really don't care. Despite that they live mainly in Russian propaganda room, because a lot of them watch only Russian TV programs due to fact that their Estonian language skills are too weak to follow Estonian TV channels). Statue of Soviet unkonown soldier in Tõnismäe is symbol for their being here. This is like changing paradigma. This has always been hard. The other problem is connected with the fact that modern Russia is bulding it new ideology. Part of it rests on fight against Nazi Germany. Statue of un-known soldier is part of this narrative building.
Here is quite objective story from Moscow Times.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/storie...01/25/001.html
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Statue of un-known soldier is part of this narrative building.
Hey Kaur !
Did you know that your Cousel ID is actually an Estonian Male's first name ?
In April of this year I will celebrate my 12th year of living and working in Estonia. Not some US Embassy employee hiding behind the "magic forcefield" of the Embassy walls, but right there with everybody. 5 years in the Ministry of Defense and in April, 5 years with the Rescue Services Special Demining Center and Northern Bomb Group.
That said, I can tell you that you will never convince Estonians that anything good will come out of this.
Yes, I am well aware of Estonia's history and Russia's use of "labor Migrants" to offset those Estonians sent to Siberia. I worked right along side of a man at the MOD, now in his early 80s. He was one of those sent to siberia. He cannot for a second explain what happened without breaking into emotional tears and has to sit down.
That's but one of how many ?
This is why I concur with sending that bronze thing back home. The Russian government may need to rethink the situation, before the Estonian public does the dirty deed themselves. Cheap economic threats by the Russians won't work, they depend on Estonia and the trade from Russia is less than 10 percent, thus nothing more than words and indeed a cheap threat.
Lastly, regarding the inability to learn Estonian after 50 years, is just Bravo Sierra. I learned Estonian in 13 weeks in Arlington. I have taken and passed the Estonian Living and Working Permit exam 7 times.
Regards, Stan
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Estonians in Siberia
Quote:
that migration was fact that thousands of Estonians were sent (mainly elite who survived first deportation in 1940 to Siberia and deadly II WW) to Siberian camps.
Hi Kaur,
I neglected to mention that my 80-year old friend at the MOD taught high school history and his brother (who later died there), was an actor.
They were then among the "elite" souls from Estonia ?
Quote:
Lastly, regarding the inability to learn Estonian after 50 years, is just Bravo Sierra. I learned Estonian in 13 weeks in Arlington. I have taken and passed the Estonian Living and Working Permit exam 7 times.
Just to preclude an obvious question to my previous paragraph, Estonia back in the mid-90's would only issue one-year work/living permits to foreigners. Then in 2003, I was given a 5-year permit and no longer have to take a high school-level language and cultural exam :D
Regards, Stan
Regards, Stan
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Stan, I'm Estonian and living in Tallinn. I was just trying to give little deeper backround to your topic that other forum members could understand this problem better. We, as Estonians, and parlamentarians who represent our thoughts, want do this statue removal in civilized way. Enough is enough (especially after Russia started to use this monument in their propaganda offencive) and it's time to take this statue to cemetery where people can bring flowers. At present time it's just symbol of occupation (in the center of our capital) for over 70% of people (this is the percentage of Estonians in Estonia) and real soruce of misunderstanding between ethnic groups. I know a lot of Russians who understand things the same way as we do. The problem is that a lot of them still see things opposite way, which means via Soviet (now Russian) propaganda prisma. There are several reasons. First, Russian TV ja radio, whisch is real PSYOPS maschine. Second, history lessons in Estonian Russian secondary schools (Russia is trying to give them even history books published in Russia).Third, Russian grandparents who tell to their grandchildren their version of history (hallelujah to Soviet Union) etc.
There are elections coming in March in Estonia. In Estonia, there are couple Russian parties. The fact is that they have not won seats in Estonian parliament. To get those seats they had to find painful issues to give new breathing to their institutions. As we know 1 issue parties are not very succsessful in long term and i hope that this rule is valid also here.
PS. My grandfather was police officer in independent Estonian Republic, before II WW. He was taken to Siberia in 1940 in animal carriage. He was there over 10 years and came back. Relatives say that he was never the same man.
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It depends how to define elite. If we define it as a class, who as potential to resist and organise insurgency to occupying power, then elite is very large portion of people. I defined elite this way. Among other geographical parts in Soviet Union, occupying force had it's counter-insurgency campaign also in Estonia. One of the solutions was also deportation of people who could resist.
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Olen Nõus (errr, I agree)
Tervist Kaur !
Ei tea miks, aga ma ju arvansingi, et olete Eestlane :cool:
A slightly refreshing approach. I am often used as a perfect example of integration. But then, I take my life and job seriously and my collegues at work expect me to pull my own weight, even if it means in another language and culture.
Regards, Stan
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The Bronze Soldier Soap Opera
http://www.citypaper.ee/paper/articles/1511/
Quote:
On a television near you.
This week, Estonia’s parliament deliberates a draft law which would allow penal measures to be applied when symbols of the Soviet Union, Communist Party, and Hitler-era Germany are used knowingly to disturb public order. The Russians, obviously, are not pleased, since the law would seem to enable the immediate removal of The Bronze Soldier monument.
This otta be good ! It will also be a problem; Estonia's 3 chapters of skinheads will have to do something with all those tattoos (from head-to-toe), clothing embellished with "ESTLAND" (Former German military embroidered sleeve emblems from the "era" in question and SS (Super Stock of course).
Quote:
According to the Russian newspaper, Kommersant, Russian President Vladimir Putin, when meeting the German Chancellor Angela Merkel, remarked: “Aah, Estonia! Estonia wants to win a seat in the front row and gain some sort of advantages on that basis.” Putin reminded Merkel of the German government’s decision to remove the monument of the liberator from Berlin’s Treptow Park, a decision which was not carried out.
Does this mean we have to wait for Germany to go (move bronze) first ?
Regards, Stan
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More Brass, err Bronze
Quote:
The analogy is inapposite, however, on at least two counts. Germany, a country defeated in war, has accepted this particular symbol of one of the victorious powers in the country’s capital. Estonia, however, did not take part in any war, being simply occupied by two powers successively, the second occupation lasting almost half-century. Second, the notion that Germany’s defeat actually liberated the country from totalitarianism is a notion accepted and internalized by German society, whereas the Soviet occupation -- of which the Soviet Soldier’s Tallinn monument is the conspicuous symbol -- cemented totalitarian rule over Estonia and her Baltic neighbors.
(BNS, Interfax, January 17 through 25; see EDM, January 11)
Hommikust !
Kaur, Thanks for the link. Good detailed information and exposes the typical Russian view. Funny, Vasily Yakimenko threatens to send 300 of "these upstanding Russians" to guard the bronze wonder. He should have done that earlier in the year, then we could have used the police and fences in other parts of Estonia where they were more needed.
Regards, Stan
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Tere, Stan!
It's interesting that Russian side is not understanding the issue correctly and overreacting because of that. They think that Estonian side is trying to destroy the statue. No, Estonian the side is talking about moving the statue to the appropriate site, for example military cemetary.
Treptow park with it's Soviet memorial is not located in the middle of Berlin and Jamestown commentary said correctly that there is no analogy between Germany and Russia, concerning history.
Here is my extreme analogy. Soviet soldiers statue in the centre of Estonia's capital, it's like leaving Saddam's statue standing in Sadr city and saying that Saddam's tribe has right to come there to mourn. How does this sound?
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Russian Statues
Tere Kaur !
Well, we know what happened to Sadam's statue (an M88 crew assisted the removal), and if we wait much longer, the Estonian public will do the same, or maybe even worse.
Have you been to Narva lately ? (The city of Narva is an Estonian/Russian border town complete with old fortresses, cannons and the like).
Somebody put lenin's statue in the farthest eastern corner of the Estonian fortress with his hand high pointing to Russia. In the corner like a bad child in kindergarten !
I had Navy and Army deminers with me, asking about Lenin's location as if he was supposed to be in the corner.
I couldn't answer because I was laughing too much (had few Saku brews as well :D )
regards, Stan
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A reasonable Russian PM !
Jan 30, 2007, By TBT staff
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/17224/
Quote:
Russian foreign minister opposes sanctions against Estonia
TALLINN - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said he is against imposing sanctions against Estonia in response to plans to relocate the Soviet Bronze Soldier monument.
"Our reaction must be robust and firm, and be aimed at mobilizing public opinion and the political position of European countries in the first place, in order to not permit this kind of blasphemous attitude toward the memory of those who fought against fascism," Interfax news agency quoted the Russian minister as saying.
"However, I would not resort to reacting with sanctions. We are not dependent on Estonia to any such degree as to fear sanctions. Simply we need to put our actions into correlation with the position of those constructive, sensible forces that exist in Estonia," Lavrov said.
This sounds somewhat strange for us here at ground zero, being they had just threatened sanctions and now a reversal ?
Regards, Stan
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Russian official slams Estonia
www.baltictimes.com
Feb 07, 2007 By TBT staff
Quote:
MOSCOW - Sergei Ivanov, Russia’s deputy prime minister and minister of defense, on Wednesday repeated his criticism of the possibility that Estonia would relocate the Bronze Soldier monument.
“We called things by their right names. I, for instance, called it state vandalism,” Ivanov was quoted by Interfax news agency as saying after a meeting by the State Duma (Russia’s lower chamber of parliament).
Ivanov argued that political posturing ahead of certain internal political events, a vague reference to the upcoming national elections in March, lay behind Estonian authorities’ decision.
Putin: Return buried soldiers to Russia
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Russian President Vladimir Putin has called for the remains of fallen Soviet fighters buried under Tallinn’s Bronze Soldier monument to be returned to Russian soil. “If it comes to the demolition of the monument and the reburial of our soldiers’ sacred remains, we are ready to propose to the present Estonian leadership to rebury them in the territory of the Russian Federation,” Putin told the Interfax news agency.
Putin’s comments are a tad premature. The Estonian government is still divided on the issue (The Center Party votes to keep the Bronze thing, while the opposition parties and Reformists (lead coalition partner) want it gone. Parliament passed laws permitting the relocation, but no decision to act on those laws has been made.
Hmmm, who cleans the bird droppings ?
Putin would later point out:
Quote:
“In many states of Europe, the monuments to Soviet soldiers are not simply standing, they are even, I’m ashamed to say, looked after better than we do it in Russia,” Putin said.
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A Step At A Time - The Victory Symbol
Mari-Ann Kelam comments on the recent and current controversy surrounding the removal of the Soviet war monument in the Estonian capital, Tallinn:
Sunday, 18 February 2007
Quote:
So often the media emphasis is on what Estonia is or is not doing with the Soviet victory symbol. The focus should be on Russia and its behaviour in this situation. With its vacillating the current Estonian coalition government (Reform, Center and People’s parties) has not handled the problem at all well. But when you really think about it, why should a huge country like Russia raise such a protest, threaten a small neighboring sovereign nation to retain one Soviet statue, a reminder of 50 years of occupation?
Absurd on the face of it, but this shows clearly how today’s Russia is still very much living in and glorifying its Soviet past. Putin’s Cold War style speech in Munich just confirms the situation.
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A gang of bandits, Nazis, was expelled by another gang - Soviet troops.
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An Interesting Interview
Thanks Kaur !
I like Ilves, he will make some significant changes in Estonia.
Regards,
Stan
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Analyst: Soldier fails to sway election
Looks like he's staying in Estonia :mad:
Feb 21, 2007
By Joel Alas
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/17358/
Quote:
TALLINN - Toomas Hendrik Ilves was forced to make his first major decision as president when he last week vetoed a bill that would have forced the removal of the Bronze Soldier monument. The decision was considered inevitable – the bill that sought the statue’s removal was deemed unconstitutional. Its passage through parliament was read only as a populist play ahead of an increasingly divisive election.
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If they are in power, we could see bulldozers moving in
Reformists pull off surprise victory, consider dumping Centrists
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/17446/
Mar 07, 2007
By Joel Alas
Quote:
The result may finalize one of the most contentious issues in Estonia – the Bronze Soldier monument. The election was seen on one level as a referendum on the Bronze Soldier. While Reform and IRL were outspoken in their desire to see the Soviet statue removed, the Center Party was adamant that it should stay.
Pettai said if Reform and IRL form a government, the fate of the soldier was sealed.
“They were clearly keen on removing it. If they are in power, we could see bulldozers moving in,” Pettai said.
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Preparations for the relocation of the monument
It may truely be on its way home following a Russia vs Estonia football match.
Sadly, Estonia lost 2 nill :(
Estonian prime minister says relocation of Soldier Liberator monument to begin soon :D
http://shaan.typepad.com/shaanou/200...an_prime_.html
Quote:
TALLINN - Preparations for the relocation of the monument to the Soldier-Liberator in Tallinn are under way in Estonia, Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip said on Thursday.
"The commission for military burials has made its proposals, preparations are under way," Ansip said.
He noted that the parties to be included in his future coalition government have not discussed the issue. "This is not a subject for coalition talks," he said.
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Estonian fascists lay barbed wire wreath to monument of Soviet Warrior-Liberator
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A group of radical Estonian nationalists attempted to lay a wreath of barbed wire to the monument of Soviet Warrior the Liberator in Tallinn. The slogan written on the ribbons attached to the wreath said : “To the murderer of the Estonian nation.”
The defenders of the monument who were informed about the imminent provocation gathered near the Bronze Soldier in Tallinn to express their own protest. They formed a live chain near the monument. The police later encircled the people to prevent a possible outbreak of violence.
The Estonian nationalists decided to conduct an action of sacrilege to mark the anniversary of the deportation of Estonians, which Soviet leader Joseph Stalin signed on March 25, 1949.
More here
http://shaan.typepad.com/shaanou/
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Russians and Balts are trapped by the past
Just a little history !
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20070326/62633158.html
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Russians think that Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians are arrogant, that their countries are malicious gnomes with an all-but-Nazi ideology, and that they hate Russia and treat Russian-speaking residents of their countries as second-class people. To be honest, Russians dislike the Balts for three reasons :
To start with, they were the first to leave the Soviet Union - how ungrateful !
Second, these pro-Western countries rushed into the EU and NATO - joined our enemies !
Third, they make claims on our territory or demand compensation for what they call "the Soviet occupation."
Discontent with the status of local Russians and other grievances are rooted in these causes. There are ex-Soviet countries where Russians are really having a hard time, but Moscow does not want to mess with dictatorships. It is much safer to lash out at the three Baltic democracies.
Our protests against SS veterans' rallies or SS monuments in the Baltics are also affected in many respects. In Russia, people freely march under overtly Nazi slogans, and Nazi literature is sold in the open, but society does not worry too much about this.
Moscow's traditionally high-handed attitude to small European countries and its habit of resolving all issues only with its big partners - America, Germany or France - is a source of rightful irritation in the Baltic nations. Russian policy towards them is hardly dexterous. What has our diplomacy done to build new relations with them ? Incidentally, when transport links with Kaliningrad turned into a big problem, Moscow desperately needed good relations with Lithuania, but there were none to be had.
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Well, He's on his way...Somewhere else :)
Work to dismantle soldier monument to be continued in Tallinn
Quote:
Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip said that the remains of Soviet soldiers could be removed from a common grave in downtown Tallinn and reburied, and that the monument to the Liberator Soldier could be relocated by May 9.
"The new government, to assume duties soon, will continue the work to pull down the Bronze Soldier," Ansip told the press on Wednesday.
The outgoing government has formed a commission for military graves which has made proposals. "Preparations for reburial are under way and this work will be continued," he said.
Ansip announced that a place is being prepared at Tallinn's military cemetery where the remains will be buried and the Bronze Soldier placed.
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Russia upset with Estonia's plans to remove statue
Apr 04, 2007
TBT staff
Quote:
Sergei Ivanov, the first deputy prime minister of Russia, on tuesday appealed to Russians at a WWII veterans meeting to refrain from buying Estonian goods and from travelling to Estonia. Ivanov said that the Estonian authorities' plans to remove the Red Army monument – known as the Bronze Soldier – from Tonismagi in central Tallinn was an act of vandalism which “will not pass without leaving a trace on Estonian-Russian relations.”
He then urged the members of the meeting to refrain from buying Estonian goods, which he said Russians were buying eagerly, or from travelling to Estonia on holidays. Ivanov also said that the construction of the Ust-Luga port in the Leningrad region should be sped up in order to cut the profits of Estonian ports.
Andrei Denisov, the first deputy foreign minister of Russia, said that while Moscow is not planning to take any official measures of pressure against Estonia, it is not satisfied with the present situation of Russian-Estonian relations.
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Vacation in our Kaliningrad,” the first deputy premier said.
No measures against Estonia over monument
Sure wish these Russkies would figure out what they want to do with the Broze dude !
The Estonian police no longer guard it, and the drunk youth certainly add a new dimension. Nice touch, empty vodka bottles and cigarette butts liter the grass every Friday and Saturday. That's kinda sorta honor...right ?
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MOSCOW -- Russia is not going to take any economic measures against Estonia over the situation regarding the monument to the Liberator Soldier in Tallinn, Andrei Denisov, the Russian first deputy foreign minister, said on Tuesday. “No measures against Estonia are considered,” he said.
Denisov said the statement by First Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Sergei Ivanov on this subject on Tuesday “was an emotional statement.”
Ivanov said at the meeting with Russian veterans that the actions of the Estonian authorities regarding the monument to the Liberator Solder in Tallinn “cannot but affect Russian-Estonian relations.” “The construction of (of a port) in Ust-Luga of the Leningrad region should be completed prompter so as not to augment the budget of Estonia in the ports of which 85 percent of the cargoes are Russian,” the first deputy premier said.
“Civil society should manifest its stand, too,” Ivanov said. “Many products manufactured in Estonia, including sour milk products, are sold in north west Russia. People can keep from buying them and thus express their attitude to the policy of the Estonian authorities,” he said.
“I don’t call for a boycott,” Ivanov said. “This is not a matter of our state sanctions. This is a civil stand. Don’t buy Estonian. Don’t vacation in Estonia. Vacation in our Kaliningrad,” the first deputy premier said.
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Soviet WWII veterans demand ban on nationalist demonstration
Juri Liim had been arrested for holding the Estonian Colors last year. Imagine that ! Now it's his turn at the helm. I say "good on ya Juri !" The Russians normally hold their annual 'vodka' contests with 'Red' flags this day. Too bad folks, the party is over :D
Apr 11, 2007
from wire reports
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/17673/
Quote:
In the latest on the controversy surrounding the Tonismagi monument – also known as the Bronze Soldier – an organization aimed at bringing together WWII veterans who fought with the Soviet Union has asked the authorities to ban a public event that Juri Liim, a nationalist activist, is planning to stage on May 9 at the site.
A letter by the association of veterans' organizations with the request to ban the nationalist event was sent to President Toomas Hendrik Ilves, Prime Minister Andrus Ansip and Interior Minister Juri Pihl.
The letter signed by Karl Velts, vice chairman of the association, says that gatherings at the monument used to go peacefully until "right-wing radicals started to stage provocations."
The monument grounds usually serve as venue for a large gathering of members of the Russian-speaking community on May 9.
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Estonian President for dialog with Russia
More on the bronze soldier. Must be a burning issue with Russians to receive a Presidential explanation.
Quote:
Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves is for a dialogue with Russia on the shifting of the monument to the Soviet Liberator Soldier in Tallinn.
“I’d prefer that a solution of this question would include a dialogue with the Russian side. But there was virtually no dialogue, and, therefore, if an approach changes, we can discuss this question,” he emphasized, replying to questions by readers of BBC and the Russian Rambler Internet portal.
Ilves noted at the same time that “if the Estonian government decides to do something in the country’s territory, it has the right to do so, as Russia has the right to decide what it can do in its territory”.
More here:
http://shaan.typepad.com/
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Another Brick In The Wall
The controversy surrounding the red army monument in Tallinn contributes to poor Russian-Estonian relations
Apr 18, 2007
Staff and wire reports
Russia, Estonia, and the EU: the saga of the bronze soldier continues...
With buldozers in place and the praised 9 May celebration closing, Estonia intends for this era to end on a high note. I hope so too. I have to drive past that intersection each day. Be a true shame to close it, my favorite waterin hole is near by :)
Quote:
Relations between Russia, Estonia and the EU have been on the rocks lately, due in large part to the bronze statue controversy.
A series of recent statements and planned events by both Estonia and Russian authorities have highlighted this rift. Igor Ivanov, Russian secretary of the Security Council, said on April 18 that Russia plans to try to keep the spotlight on the bronze soldier – a red army monument in downtown Tallinn – which he said signifies the glorification of Nazism in Estonia. Ivanov said that they were prepared to use the wide variety of means at their disposal to accomplish this, including “all legal norms and mechanisms arising from our common membership in one or another intenational organization.”
“I don't think the arsenal we have at our disposal is limited,” Ivanov said. “We shall carry on this work in various international organizations and on the bilateral level.”
The Russian community in Tallinn has been galvanized into action by the bronze soldier row. Veterans of the Soviet army are planning a flower laying ceremony on May 9 to commemorate their fellow soldiers. Meanwhile, members of Nochnoi Dozor (Night Watch), a informal group of mostly young Russian-speakers set up to defend a Red Army monument in downtown Tallinn, are going to Strasbourg to stage a picket in defense of the monument.
Estonian MEP Tunne Kelam expressed concern with Russia’s trends away from European values. “Repeated expressions of concern about the reversal of democratic development (in Russia) make no impact if they do not carry the EU's clear message that we cannot proceed with certain issues if other questions remain without an answer,” he said.
Mart Laar, chairman of the Pro Patria and Res Publica Union Faction of Estonian parliament, said on April 18 that the long entertained hope that Russia would in time develop into a law-governed state has been foiled. He said that Russia is trying to use Europe’s lack of solidarity to play member states against one another.
The president of the European Parliament, Hans-Gert Poettering, also thought that this was a large issue with Russia, arguing that best and most tangible remedy for Russia-related apprehensions is the EU's rallying for a common and solidaristic policy.
Meanwhile, in an effort to help improve relations, Estonian Interior Minister Juri Pihl will take part in a meeting to be held in Luxembourg on Thursday and Friday is to make a decision on the EU-Russian readmission treaty and easing of the issuance of short-term visas.
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Excavation to begin on Bronze Soldier site
Apr 20, 2007
From wire reports
In cooperation with BNS
Yesterday evening the intersection was being fenced off with more than 20 police officers performing foot patrols into the night (about 5 times more than normal, especially for a single intersection).
Hope they get this done before the 9th of May, or there will be some very interesting rallies to watch :wry:
Quote:
Estonia's Defense Minister Jaak Aaviksoo has sent the Tallinn city government notification of the start of excavation and identification works on the site of the controversial Bronze Soldier monument at Tonismagi in downtown Tallinn.
The purpose of the planned excavation is to establish the number and identity of persons who are assumed to lie buried on the site, the governmental press service said.
The Estonian government plans to move the monument to a nearby military cemetery, a plan which has drawn fire from veterans groups as well as from Russia, which continually berates Estonia over the issue. No firm date has been set for the move.
Aaviksoo later briefed members of the Cabinet on preparations for works to be carried out on the site pursuant to the War Graves Protection Act, and the government assigned tasks to state institutions to ensure that the work is carried out in an appropriate manner and in keeping with all international norms.
Members of the government agreed that the Interior Ministry will secure public order in the area during the excavation. The ministry's task is also to rearrange traffic if necessary.
The late 1940s Red Army monument, locally known as the Bronze Soldier, commemorates Soviet soldiers who died in World War II and has traditionally been a rallying point each May 9 for veterans celebrating the Soviet Union’s defeat of Nazi Germany. Because the Red Army’s invasion of Estonia at the end of the war and decades of Soviet occupation and repression, however, many Estonians find the monument offensive.
The monument has been a source of tension since last May 9, when police prevented a group of Estonian nationalists from demonstrating at the site, where a veterans’ rally was already taking place.
The Tallinn city government has taken legal action to prevent the excavations. However, the administrative court did not accept the city's complaint as it was deficient. The court also rejected a repeat application for initial legal protection filed by the city government last Wednesday to stop the works from going ahead.
The previous defense minister, Jurgen Ligi, decided shortly before leaving office to start excavations at Tonismagi to remove the remains of Red Army soldiers believed to be buried there to a more suitable place as recommended by the War Graves Commission, a body set up at the Defense Ministry. He said the works to dig out war graves and identify the remains would start in April.
Meanwhile Russia’s foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, said at a news conference in Madrid on Wednesday that the plan to relocate the monument cannot be described other than as "blasphemous and an insult to the memory of those who freed Europe from Nazism," Russian news agency Interfax reports.
A poll taken April 13 - 16 showed that more than half inhabitants of Russia, 59 percent, believe the removal of the monument is discriminatory and provokes further tension in Estonian-Russian relations, the Russian news agency Interfax reported.
At the same time 20 percent of the polled said both parties to the row over the monument should behave in a more restrained and wiser manner.
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1 Attachment(s)
According to multiple reports, the Estonian government will spend up to $125,000 for every 24-hour period in order to maintain order surrounding the bronze soldier.
Following reports of telephonic messaging offering Estonia’s Russian youth $6.50 an hour to guard against the monument’s removal, police officers from all across the country have been called back from leave and ordered to the capital.
At 0430 this morning, law enforcement barricades were erected and archeologists set up their equipment to commence digging.
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Here are 2 reports about German and Soviet occupations in Estonia. If you read those, then you understand that Estonia is victim of both regimes. That's why it is very disturbing for Estonians to understand that Nazis are bad and Soviets are good. Russia occupied us until 1994, when last soldiers left bases. Until 1991. when Estonia became independent Soviet repression machine worked in full gear. Russia is trying to built it's identity on Soviet traditions and big victories and that's why it is very painful for them to see us making our own decisions. I added also pictures about their own reburial in Himki district in Moscow. ... and there were no problems. This is exactly the same thing in Tallinn, that our government intends relocate monument to cemetary.
http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/index.htm
http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/index.htm
http://www.just.ee/orb.aw/class=file...eWhiteBook.pdf
About Himki.
http://drugoi.livejournal.com/2161390.html#cutid1
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Coming soon to a theater near you
Thanks for the links Kaur !
I have but one thing to add at this point regarding Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov's last and recent threat:
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There will be "severe consequences" for moving the monument to a cemetery.
I have to wonder, will such consequences include the rape and mutilation of women, the mass execution of Estonian leaders, and carting President Ilves off for a lengthy stay in Tver? Or just a boycott of Estonian Sour Cream ?
Stay tuned.
PS
Is Lavrov representing the Russian Federation or the Russian Mafia? Protesting is one thing, but "threatening consequences" is quite another -- bullying a sovereign country which also happens to be a member of NATO.
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Probably the last post for this thread
For those who viewed this thread from time-to-time, this will be my last one.
The controversial Bronze Soldier monument was removed this morning at about 0400 following an Estonian government emergency meeting in the interests of national security after a night of heavy rioting.
One man was killed; over 50 reported injuries and over 300 arrests.
Violence broke out yesterday evening after skirmishes between police and several hundred Russian-speaking youths, gathered throughout the day and early evening to protest what was only to be exploratory excavation work. The rioters (mainly teenagers in their 20's), after being pushed back from the monument onto side streets, smashed nearly every ground floor window and some 2nd and 3rd story windows in the first city block leading to the monument's site.
Based on reports that many of those who participated in disturbances were drinking, Tallinn authorities have banned the sale of alcohol beginning today at 1400 until the morning of May 2nd.
We were on duty last night, performing typical EOD response calls and couldn't comprehend the destruction and violence along a major BLVD taking place. As we came up behind one of the local fire company trucks and fire investigator's Subaru, a hail of stones and various other projectiles hit the fire truck and the driver brought the beast to a dead halt. The road now nearly blocked and almost nowhere to go, we cranked our Patrol into high gear over the curbs and hauled ass. The fire truck decided to follow us!
I realize that this crowd was predominately Russian and very drunk, but our vehicles are red and white (Police vehicles are blue), with 'Rescue Services' and '112' all over the vehicle (police emergency is 110).
As one firefighter said to me, “I’ve been rescuing these Russians from burning buildings for years, and this is the thanks I get”.
There are over 15 videos on you tube, but this one shows the beginning and subsequent lootings.
Footage from "Bronze Soldier" Riot 2
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I'd like to add to Stan's post that 1 victim was not result of riot police job, but victim of stabbing among two persons with Slavic names.
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Drunk Russians! No! What is the world coming to!? Glad to hear you didn't have to grapple with any of the Bolsheviks on hand.
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Estonian Government has removed the grave marker
Hey Goesh !
We had sidearms, but were already instructed to leave, not shoot. A damn shame if you ask me. I'll go to the range this weekend as promised and use my imagination :wry:
A little more from the Estonian MFA. Well put, Mr. Minister !
http://www.vm.ee/eng/kat_138/8370.html
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Originating from the situation in Tallinn and acting based on the “Protection of War Graves Act” §8 article 2, the Estonian Government has decided to immediately remove the Tõnismäe grave marker (Bronze Soldier).
The objective of the government’s decision is to avert further brutal acts of public violence, which are realistic threats to the health and property of citizens. The decision to immediately remove the Bronze Soldier was made to ensure that it cannot be used in the future as a reason or cause for extensive and dangerous rioting.
Yesterday’s rioters found the police presence and the assembly of people to be a good reason to act destructively.
The rioters showed clearly that their real goal was to riot, destroy, break and loot.
These actions confirm that they have nothing to do with respecting and protecting the memories of those who fell during World War II.
Meanwhile, the Russians are considering -- and probably will -- sever diplomatic relations with Estonia.
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Estonian government cuts up WWII memorial
What a load of malarkey !
The entire monument is hiden and still in one piece.
The Russian propaganda machine is alive and funtioning.
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"The Bronze Soldier has been cut up into separate pieces and taken out of the city center. Currently it is under police protection. Information about its whereabouts is not being released," the press service said. The press service declined to say whether the monument will ever be restored. "I cannot answer this question," the spokesman said.
More here...
and CNN as well..
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More riots, looting and mayhem
Estonia’s capital was calm this morning after a second night of rioting.
Reports are approx. 60 injured, 47 hospitalized and 600 detained.
Groups of ethnic Russian teens roamed the streets battling with police and looting shops for a second night.
Yesterday evening rioting also started in the northeastern town of Jõhvi. An Estonian radio correspondent said that a crowd of about 200 gathered in the Center Square at around 2200 and within the next hour rampaging had gained full force. In true Russian form, smashing windows at two different shopping centers and traffic signs pulled out of the ground, one of which was thrown into a window of a local bank office. By 2400, Estonian TV reported police had subdued the rioting in Jõhvi.
A New Twist
Police began an early counter attack and now armed with 12-ga. shotguns moved into a proactive role pushing the rioters well outside of previous perimeters. Local Estonians bearing their own flags joined police and clashed with Russians, bring the tempo up a notch...as well as a good warm and fuzzy patriotic feeling :D
The Estonian media also began doing their part by publishing pictures of looters asking for residents to assist police in identifying suspects. In the last 3 hours more than 40 have been picked up and cross-referenced with footage.
Russian authorities strongly criticized the monument’s relocation as pro-Nazi in public statements. Estonia continues to support the relocation because the monument has become a focal point of extremist activity for nationals, and its presence glorifies a repressive Stalin regime that the Russian Army brought with it.
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Jamestow writes:
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Some 1,500 people, mostly local Russians, some of them mobilized by the Nochnoy Dozor (Night Watch) red-brown group, had gathered around the Bronze Soldier in the pre-midnight hours. Some tried unsuccessfully to break through police lines, while most of them rampaged on shopping and residential streets downtown. The rioting received a second wind after the looting of liquor from bars on Tatari Street. Scores were injured, many of them by glass from vandalized shops. One death was reported in a stabbing incident. Thirteen policemen received injuries requiring hospitalization. Some 300 rioters were arrested throughout the night.
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Clearly, Moscow calculated that “anti-fascist” protests in Estonia would fit well into Russia’s overall political campaign against the Baltic states on the international level as well as in Russia itself. However, the spree of drunken vandalism that actually ensued in Tallinn will not easily be ennobled by Moscow as “political protest.”
http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article...cle_id=2372127
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So it seems the government of Estonia is "inhuman" because it dares to disagree with Russia. Perhaps that means it should be "exterminated" like an infestation? Break diplomatic relations? Mironov is the same person who is calling for appointing Vladimir Putin an indefinite rule as dictators, the same one who stood by watching trainees use Alexander Litvinenko's photograph for target practice. Who are the Russians kidding? Estonia is a part of NATO and the EU. Attacking Estonia is attacking NATO and the EU -- and, come to think of it, Putin just announced a pullout from a major security treaty in Europe. Maybe war is just what Russia wants?
http://russophobe.blogspot.com/
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1 Attachment(s)
May he rest in peace
After nearly 3 full days of rioting and looting, our little town is on its way back to normal, the bronze soldier relocated (just behind the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier) and a Russian Duma delegation visiting.
Suprisingly enough, Estonia is still taking hits from Europe over the recent decisions and aftermath:
Leading article: Don't let Russia bully the Baltics
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We have had the strange spectacle of the EU nodding with apparent respect as Vladimir Putin's ministers lecture Estonia on civil rights. This is hypocrisy on a grand scale, given Russia's treatment of its unhappy Chechens and its rough handling of recent anti-government protests in Moscow and St Petersburg.
This is the proverbial road to hell paved with good intentions. Indulging Russia's imperial attitudes towards the Baltic states, which it invaded in 1940 and ruled harshly for the next half-century, is not going to get us anywhere. We merely are feeding Moscow's appetite to re-establish influence over those former Soviet republics that it revealingly refers to as the "near abroad".
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Translation?
This thread has been getting a lot of attention (visitors) from Estonia via this link - Postimees.ee. Translation anyone?
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SWJED, this is Estonian's daily newspaper "Postimees" blog and author of this short story is former Estonian prime minister Mart Laar. He says that it's time for Estonians (and non-Estonians like Stan) to say in international forums what is going on here. He mentions this forum with link, Stan's and my name. He says that Estonia is under Russian porpaganda offence and situation is similar to 1940 when Soviet Union sent their delegation to orchestrate so called revolution here and this time among Russian speaking population. Russian Duma delegation visited Estonia Monday and Tuesday and according to plan they leave today. Estonian officials gave them overview about events in Estonia during last week riots and according to delegation they got very good overview - they found out that statue is in one pieace, riots were handled correctly, human rights were not violated. The last point was most imoprtant for them, because they got complaints about bad handling and detention (people were held in huge storage hose for 3-6 hours to id them) from Russian and Russian-speaking people. During last meeting they got good explanations form mr. Allar Jõks, Chancellor of Justice, that according to law in special emergency cases people can be handled this way. He said that for this short time the conditions were very ok. He said that if you can't give me any evidences then we can't talk about violations anymore. Russians couldn't produce evidences there. Jõks added that all compalints are welcome and his team will handle them according to law. Russian delegation seemed pleased. There is one more aspect. Some sources claim that delegation met privatly with Edgar Savisaar, who is leader Central party and whose voters are mostly elders and Russian speaking people. He is not in coalition which decided to remove statute. He is head of Tallinn, Estonian capital, where statue is located. His party is in opposition and it is workind against coalition and his statements may become source of inter-ethnic conflict. Estonians have gathered already over 70 000 signatures that he steps back. This is situation in Estonia. Different situation is in Moscow where our embassy is under siege by Russian youth movements that are usually guided by Kremlin and especially Surkov. I suppose personally that Russia is using internationally piecemail stratey (according to Beaufre) to step-by-step devide our allies and destroy our internal stabilty.
Here is one new article by Jamestown.
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Russia’s state-controlled television channels misleadingly claimed that the monument had been “cut to pieces,” whereas it is actually being transferred intact to a military cemetery on the outskirts of Tallinn. The Russian channels reported very little about the vandalism and drunkenness. Instead, they blamed Estonian police for “brutality,” characterized the gangs as “Russian school pupils,” “monument defenders,” and “anti-fascists,” and ran archival footage of Soviet-era festivities around the monument. Russian TV generalized that “British MPs” disapproved of Estonia, only to produce the eccentric leftist George Galloway expressing that view.
http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article...cle_id=2372133
Article by Moscow Times "Rhetoric Only Outdone by The Hypocrisy"
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/storie...05/02/005.html
I hope that Stan, with his fluent English will and couple words and comments.
PS. One of the most voiceful members of Russian delegation who critisized Estonia about human rights was mr Slutski, member of Shirinovski party, whose good firend is Chechnya's Kadõrov. Here is story how Slutski gave present to Kadõrov's zoo.
http://fmnews.ru/oddly/news.php?date...3200&det=gifts
Here is Mart Laar's blog in English with his explanation why Russia likes Soviet occupation monuments?
http://blog.irl.ee/Mart/
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Thanks!
Kaur,
Much appreciated.
Dave
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In my previous post I just dug into details and forgot most imortant thing. Before departure from Moscow, head of Russian delegation (ex FSB general), made statement that Estonian people should get rid of this kind of government that made such bad decision to relocate statue. After 2 day visit they hadn't changed their point. They just added that this is their personal opinion. They started with this statement to influence Estonian internal political processes and contiuned this during all their visit (in 2 press conferences and telephone interviews) and i think they will contiue this back in Russia despite all explanations about events and reasons of action by Estonian authorities. Who is the person they would like to be new prime minister? This is Edgar Savisaar I mentioned in previous post. Estonia got new parliament in the beginning of March and it was bitter thing for Savisaar to be left out of government despite fact that his party was second in the list of resluts. During election campaign, Russian Jedinaja Rossija party members suggested to elect for Savisaar in public ads and Russian-speaking people did this. That time peaceful plan didn't work out and seems that Duma delegation visit is new try by Russia to boost Savisaar's career.
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Sorry for the delays. I had tried to take some much needed leave, and got called back.
The blog's author, Mart Laar, now a leader in one of the strongest right wing fractions (Res Publica - The Republic) struck comparisons with the 1940's occupation and today's current problems. I'll post those separately herein.
Regarding the SWJ, Mart opined "Thanks to the Prime Minister for standing up for us in our hour of need, and thanks to people like Kaur and Sten (sic) in getting Estonia's word out via forums such as the SWC. You could say 'kudos' :)
Res Publica holds 5 ministry positions and boasts members such as the former Chief of Defense, Gold-Medal Olympic winners, and staunch right wingers. In a word, backed by the people.
More to follow...Translating mucho text :cool:
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One has to wonder why the EU has been under attack lately.
That’s an easy one…because Russia is attacking Estonia.
The Bronze Soldier and the rioting/vandalism in Tallinn were and still are Estonia’s domestic matters. But Russia’s coordinated actions against Estonia are an EU problem. EU-Russia relations have entered a very complicated phase, while Estonia witnesses Virtual, Psychological and Real attacks.
Various LE CI reports indicate that before the riots, representatives of the Russian Embassy met with the principle ‘riot’ organizers in Tallinn and other Estonian cities. Said meetings took place “in the strangest of places such as Tallinn’s Botanical Gardens”.
It has also been established that cyber terrorist attacks took place against Estonian governmental institutional websites (to include the President’s Office). Links were discovered from IP addresses of “concrete computers and by concrete individuals from Russian government organs”.
The Russian State Duma (Senate) delegation visited Estonia through the intermediation of the EU’s Presidency this past week. Upon arrival, they demanded the resignation of the government and refused to cooperate or enter into dialogue with Estonian officials.
The Foreign Minister openly stated to the press “I affirm to you that we have sufficient material to prove our accusations. This clearly shows that the future of people of Russian-decent in Estonia is merely being used for a rhetorical pretext, and our compatriots are being used for greater political gains.”
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Estonian Ambassador to Moscow was attacked
In a conference room where riot control gas was unsed
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Estonian Ambassador to the Russian Federation Marina Kaljurand was attacked at a press conference in Moscow on Wednesday, 2 May.
Ambassador Marina Kaljurand broke through the cordon of hooligans circling the Embassy to give a press conference at the offices of “Argumentõ i Faktõ”. The Ambassador was attacked in the press conference room and gas was used. Rioting youths also attacked the Ambassador’s car that was waiting outside. The youths proceeded to brutally tear off the car’s Estonian flag.
Physical attacks on the Estonian Republic’s diplomatic representative are unprecedented and absolutely unjustifiable. These attacks call for immediate actions from the international community.
The events clearly show that Russian authorities are blatantly violating the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.
"The direct links of hostile Russian youth organizations like Nashi and Molodaja Gvardija to the Kremlin are well known. Just as well known is the fact that persons holding the Estonian Embassy under siege are being paid 550 to 1,000 Roubles per day by the Kremlin."
"On Thursday, I will make a proposal to the Estonian Government as to which measures Estonia believes that the EU should apply to Russia. These measures have to influence Russia, so that it ends the attacks and its interference in Estonia's internal matters. Remind Russia of its obligations under the Vienna Convention regarding Diplomatic Relations. "
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Please publish this story as everyone in Estonia and in the Baltics has forgotten
Some indeed do remember !
If you need any further confirmation of this story, please contact the
Tallinn city archives and we will provide you with all the details.
linnaarhiiv@tallinnlv.ee
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While the Russian government today complains about the removal of the bronze soldier and the fact that 13 dead soviet soldiers are being moved to a military cemetery for a proper burial; they should first apologise for destroying one of the largest cemeteries in Tallinn in 1945-50.
Here is a forgotten story about the Soviet destruction of one of the
largest cemeteries in Tallinn in 1945-50.
In the Kopli area of Tallinn there used to be a very large Baltic German cemetery. This cemetery was created in the late 18th century when Catherine the Great of Russia decreed (for health reasons such as outbreaks of the plague) that people could no longer be buried in churches. The cemetery was called Ziegelskoppel and the first burials started around 1780 and the cemetery stood in Kopli until 1945. After the 2nd Russian occupation between 1945-1950 the Russian army declared the suburb of Kopli a military zone. Although there were no German soldiers buried there but only German families that had lived in Estonia for hundreds of years the Russian army destroyed the ENTIRE cemetery which at that point contained more than 10,000 graves and tombstones.
The gravestones were all taken away used to build wall and roads in Tallinn. Many coffins were opened and jewellery was removed from the dead bodies (some which had been dead for over a hundred years). No bodies were transferred to another location, no graves were set up elsewhere. The entire area was converted to a public park with no mention of the destroyed cemetery.
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Jamestown continues protection of Estonia.
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Kovalyov and the delegation’s second-in-command, Leonid Slutsky --- first vice-chairman of the Duma’s International Affairs Committee --- publicly demanded the return of the Red Army monument to downtown Tallinn, the resignation of Estonia’s government, and a criminal investigation into the “repression” of rioters, whom the delegation leaders characterized as “anti-fascists.” They voiced these demands through the mass media while boarding the plane in Moscow for Tallinn and again during their meeting with Russian journalists in the Russian embassy in Tallinn. The demand for government change reminded Estonians of Moscow’s proconsuls unseating and installing Baltic governments in the past. Kovalyov and Slutsky replied dialectically that it was Estonia’s right to form a government and their right to call for the government to be changed.
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General (ret.) Kovalyov is identified as the head of the FSB from 1996 to 1998, the immediate predecessor to Vladimir Putin in that post.
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In Moscow, the Estonian embassy is under siege continuously since April 27 by some 200 activists of the Kremlin-sponsored youth organizations Nashi and Molodaya Gvardiya (“Ours” and “Young Guard”) as well as the youth branch of the United Russia party of power. The siege began one day after Estonian President Toomas Ilves stayed at the embassy while attending Boris Yeltsin’s funeral in Moscow. The police are allowing those activists to daub the embassy’s outer walls with paint and hostile slogans, play loud Soviet military music 24 hours a day, and control or interdict the entry of visitors. The embassy staff is locked inside amid threats against their safety. On May 1, a protester tore off the Estonian flag from the embassy’s nine meter high flagpole (embassy staff managed to hoist another flag). The Kremlin-appointed “Nashi” leader Vasily Yakemenko is taking time off from the Estonian embassy siege to appear on Channel One and other TV programs.
Since April 30, picket leaders are publicly threatening to “dismantle” the Estonian embassy building and urging the Russian public via mass media to join in the “dismantling.”
http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article...cle_id=2372137
Purpose of strategy is to brake the will of opponent and make him agree with our demands. Our opponent Russia is using different methods to break our will. These are non-mllitary, but the situation may be described as war in a peacetime.
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The Kremlin’s assault on Estonia is intensifying on four levels of varying sophistication. These include: cyber attacks from within Russia’s Presidential Administration against the Estonian presidency’s and government’s electronic communications; political demands, backed by economic sanctions threats, to change the Estonian government; siege laid by Kremlin-created organizations to the Estonian Embassy in Moscow; and instigatory coverage of the April 27-29 violent riots of Russian youth in Tallinn by Russia’s state television.
http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article...cle_id=2372136
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Russia to cut Estonia fuel transit amid statue row
Russian disruption in the delivery of oil products
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Russian state railways said planned maintenance on the railway link could lead to disruption in the delivery of oil products. Russia has in the past been accused of using its energy resources as a political weapon against its neighbors.
"We haven't imposed any economic sanctions against Estonia and have no plans to do so. But from May 1, we plan repair works. We therefore plan to change the delivery schedule," said a spokeswoman for Russian state railways.