Top General in Afghanistan Expels Marines
23 March Washington Examiner - Top General in Afghanistan Expels Marines by Rowan Scarborough.
Quote:
The top American general in Afghanistan has expelled a U.S. Marine special operations company for the way the men responded to an ambush March 4, Marine sources said.
Maj. Cliff Gilmore, a spokesman for Marine Special Operations Command, confirmed to The Examiner that the company of 120 Marines is redeploying.
He said the decision followed an ambush on the company's convoy by a vehicle-borne improvised explosive device. A second Marine source said the Marines retaliated and some civilians were killed.
The action brought an abrupt end to what promised to be a historic deployment. The unit sailed in January from Camp Lejuene, N.C., as the first Marine Corps special operations company sent overseas. The Corps joined U.S. Special Operations Command a year ago.
The company is now redeploying to Kuwait after just a few weeks in Afghanistan in what was supposed to be a six-month tour.
A Marine officer assigned to special operations said Lt. Gen. Karl Eikenberry, the top U.S. commander, took the extraordinary step of expelling the unit after he consulted with Afghan Prime Minister Hamid Karzai...
Marines expelled from Afganistan ?
From the sparse info the Special Ops Company seems to have shot their way out of an ambush . Very curious .
Not a scape goat, but darn close
I concur, I wouldn't say the unit is necessarily a scapegoat, because removing them seemed to be a counter propaganda effort to counter AQ and/or Taliban propaganda. Apparently a political line of operation, but was it the right thing to do?
Of course from where I sit, I don't have a clue on the "rest" of the story, but it "seems" we may have set a bad precedent. Will the Taliban push to get every unit that accidently kills civilians removed from country? Talk about a potentially slippery slope! Where was the counter IO effort putting the blame on the ambushers who sprung an ambush in a populated area?
Now You See, Now You Don't - A Guerilla's Sleight of Hand
The unit gets hit, they shoot and scoot, regroup and return. Some the taliban fighters that were seen going down now have no weapons on or near them. Said weapons are now hidden or on their way to market or back to the taliban by the time the unit returns. The unit Commander is apprised that x number of taliban went down and now their weapons are gone and journalists are snapping pictures of their bodies. It was the right action and right order to confiscate. If it was a safe environment to spring an ambush it would be suitable too for some Afghans present to claim the KIAs were innocent civilians and quite possible for some to intentionally remove AKs, etc from the scene, for whatever purpose. I think Eikenberry is the one who acted irrationally here.
Readiness of Ousted Spec Ops Unit Questioned
30 March Army Times - Readiness of Ousted Spec Ops Unit Questioned by Gidget Fuentes.
Quote:
The recent expulsion from Afghanistan of the Marine Corps’ first special operations company did more than just put the relatively new leatherneck command in the spotlight. It has made many question whether the company was up to the task in the first place.
The removal of Marine Special Operations Company-Fox came sometime after a March 4 suicide attack and ambush on the Marines’ convoy in Afghanistan left at least eight Afghans dead and another 34 wounded along a highway, about a month after the company had arrived in the country.
The Marines’ response on that day is under scrutiny by at least one major investigation. The region’s top commander, Army Maj. Gen. Frank Kearney — head of U.S. Special Operations Command-Central Command — ordered the expulsion, citing concerns about the unit’s ability to conduct counterinsurgency in the area, a spokesman for Kearney said March 23.
The Army-led investigation into the incident is continuing, and officials were mum on details of the incident. A Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command spokesman said the company would rejoin the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit — with whom it deployed from the East Coast in January — and take on other spec-ops missions in the region as needed.
But conversations in some Marine circles — both active and retired — and on the Internet since the expulsion have stirred speculation about the company’s reassignment, and the Corps’ future in the world of spec ops...
Continued at the link...
No side is above reproach
Let's get this straight, no side in this or any conflict is above reproach. The baseline difference is that here-today the Coalition, NATO-US forces do not deliberatly target civilians as a means of terror based coercion. Those who have faced battle understand that 30 seconds of combat is a very long time, within that time frame hundreds of actions take place, far faster than the average human can think. Reaction: the time it takes to squeeze a trigger; the speed of the bullet once it is fired is far faster than the time it takes to discern the difference between a non-uniformed insurgent and a non-combatant civilian. Once fired the bullet cannot be pulled back. Psychology: there is a thing called emotional contagion and terrain amplification, these affect everyone particularly in combat. Emotional contagion is a generally unanticipated response to tone of voice, facial expression or body language that illicits an involuntary empathic reaction and Terrain Amplification is the use of terrain (human and physical) to mask or amplify the strength of a military force, generally causing it to seem larger and more effective than it actually is. The goal of any good ambush. IED attack or guerilla force action is to combine terrain amplification and emotional contagion to increase the shock of an ambush or percieved ambush causing a negative emotional response to the ambushee increasing fear and over-reaction. -TROUFION
AP Story on Human Rights Watch: Rights group: Taliban targets civilians, By ALISA TANG, Associated
Press Writer
Quote:
The Taliban and other militant groups are committing war crimes by targeting Afghan civilians, killing nearly 700 last year, according to a report issued Monday by Human Rights Watch that also pointed to dramatically escalating violence since 2005.
The death toll caused by the Islamic groups is more than three times the civilian deaths attributed to U.S. and NATO forces, which have been criticized for excessive use of force in civilian areas.
In the latest suicide attack against the Western-backed government, a bomber in the relatively stable north struck a crowd of police on Monday, killing 10 and wounding 32.
The New York-based rights group said the number of suicide attacks spiked to 136 last year from 21 the previous year as the Taliban turned to increasingly indiscriminate, Iraq-style tactics. The surge in violence made 2006 "the deadliest year for civilians in Afghanistan since 2001," the report said....
___
On the Net: Human Rights Watch
Media and Military Terms...often confusing
Hi Sarajevo !
Please allow me to further explain herein:
I have two points and do not pretend to defend anyone with these, merely explain my thoughts and my thought process.
The Media, specifically Mr. ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer
Do a quick 'dogpile' search and see what he's all about. Now that you generally know who he is, you can better assess the way he 'pens'. For example, in September of 2006 he wrote: "The Army is ending its best recruiting year since 1997" which created nothing more than Bravo Sierra everywhere. He even wrote about 'air samples being taken from a nuclear blast.
Hell, I don't know too many people (Marc is one of them) that can discuss nuclear fallout and insurgency all in one breath. :cool:
Fact is, these stories are barely true. They do however make for some good paper sales :D
The Military: It seems every time we hear CID or Criminal Investigation, we conclude immediate wrong doing. That's not at all the case. This is the CID's job, be it Army, Air Force, Navy or Marines. A military commander can only go so far. He or She then determines (and not all the time) whether such investigations should continue, or worse, He or She is not even capable of performing said.
Going to your link (allow me one more pathetic rant):
Quote:
A U.S. military commander has determined that Marines accused of killing civilians after a suicide bombing in Afghanistan last month used excessive force, and he has referred the case for possible criminal inquiry, The Associated Press has learned.
"A US Military Commander and Associated Press has learned"
Is there any information there ? Which US Military Commander ? WTF does 'has learned mean' ? Where did this Bravo Sierra come from ?
Here's a better one:
Quote:
The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the probe's results have not been released. The findings have been forwarded to Central Command, which has responsibility for U.S. military operations in the Middle East and Central Asia.
This Chicken Sierra wishes to spread Sierra but has no 'nuts'. Forwarding issues to the appropriate command is also a very appropriate and normal situation much like the CID.
I hope this helps just a tad, but more than happy to explain.
Regards, Stan
Report on Afghan deaths released...
Hi, Stan
This is the newest... Hope it helps explaining situation better. This is not first, not the least time, for some unit to open 360 degres fire on everyone in Afghanistan and Iraq, and I believe you know that.
Quote:
No sign Marines were fired upon
by Ann Scott Tyson
Washington Post, April 15, 2007
A preliminary US military investigation has found no evidence that Marines came under small-arms fire before they killed and wounded more than 40 Afghan civilians in a village near Jalalabad last month, the US commander who ordered the inquiry said yesterday.
Members of a Marine Special Operations platoon shot at scores of civilian vehicles on a highway after their convoy was attacked by a suicide bomber March 4.
Although the Marines reported taking enemy fire and seeing people with weapons, Major General Frank Kearney, head of Special Operations Command Central, said yesterday that there is no evidence the platoon came under small-arms fire after the bombing.
The troops continued shooting at perceived threats as they traveled miles from the site of the attack and hit several vehicles carrying civilians, he said.
…
http://www.boston.com/news/world/asi...p1=MEWell_Pos3
Perception and Belief on the ground
Hi Sarajevo !
Sorry, took a while to go through the myriad of articles.
Most of all the hits are worded exactly like Ann Scott Tyson's and I wanted something different to view. Makes me wonder who is copying from whom anymore.
Again, I am not here to defend either side, but trying to provide an objective approach as a soldier and now civilian who has been to Afghanistan several times (with firearms and dead fear).
Strange, I found contradictory text at the Washington Post where Ann reportedly works:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...400603_pf.html
Quote:
The six-Humvee convoy had stopped at another U.S. camp near the Pakistan border and was on its way back to Jalalabad when a Toyota van moved to the shoulder along with other oncoming traffic. The van suddenly swerved between the first and second Humvees, and the suicide bomber detonated the bomb, Kearney said.
Marines in the convoy believed that they were taking enemy fire from several locations along the sides of the road, Kearney said. They deemed vehicles along the road threats and shot at five or six of them -- one because it failed to respond to their direction, and another because it appeared to be trying to force them in a certain direction, Kearney said.
"They reported receiving enemy fire from a number of locations. . . . They believed they saw folks with weapons," he said.
I cannot comment on what they saw, only they can. I can however look at the circumstances that led up to the shootings and would only wonder what the service men were feeling. Certainly nothing good comes to mind. With that, the following shouldn't surprise anyone:
Quote:
The Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission released its report on the incident yesterday, along with a separate, more general report on violations of international humanitarian law across the country in recent months. The second study said actions by the Taliban, Afghan national forces and international forces regularly put civilian lives at risk.
What the General had to do was logical, but does not assume guilt:
Quote:
"If we employed them and they had another engagement . . . they would never get a fair judgment regardless of what occurred," Kearney said. The Marines are easily distinguishable because they wear different uniforms from other U.S. forces.
Regards, Stan
”believed that they were taking enemy fire…”
Glad to see you back, Sarajevo !
Quote:
I am failing to see (from that quote you provide for me) where is said that someone shoot at Marines? Reading like this, that Marines ”believed that they were taking enemy fire…”
It is perception. I admit, hard to explain when you stuff yourself under the vehicle and huddle down. Perception then becomes everything.
I remember your PMs to me about your life in New York. A place I have visited only twice in 49 years. You think it's home, but for me it's a battle field. Perception my friend !
"Marines in the convoy believed that they were taking enemy fire from several locations along the sides of the road, Kearney said. They deemed vehicles along the road threats and shot at five or six of them -- one because it failed to respond to their direction, and another because it appeared to be trying to force them in a certain direction, Kearney said.
Quote:
Now, how some strangers who invade their country can order them how to drive, where and punish them (shoot at them, maim or kill them) if they fail to obey them or understand they foreign langue-is totally different issue. I do not raising those questions since this is not place for it but I think it should have some merit in making decisions to kill people.
I don't know much about an invasion, I was invited there five times.
Yes, directing traffic in any foreign country without language and cultural background would be hard to do.
They had just survived an VBIED jammed between their convoy and following that, I think I would have a hard time with more vehicles, even if they didn't understand hand signals.
I understand your stance, but I am unwilling to convict those without the burden of proof.
Glass 3 miles later is not in my opinion proof of anything.
Take care, Stan
Perception is everything.
I agree.
I understand everything what you said and I am humble with job that you did there... You will always have my deepest respect for that, Stan. Hope you will remember that.
Thank you for your input and conversation.
night
You never have to agree..........
Hi Sarajevo !
I am glad that you feel you understand a little more. I may later ask you to explain some things to me :) They will definitely be hard ones :D
Much like you and the fine folks herein, I also think that even one human loss is terrible, no matter how it happened.
Please continue to find those "difficult subjects" and post them for us.
Good night, Stan
Incident Under Investigation
For those following this thread, here is the latest from the UNOFFICIAL Marine Corps Times:
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news...marsoc_070420/
Bottom line, Commanding Officer and Senior Enlisted relieved of duty and sent home awaiting the results of the investigation (several other team members have also been sent home early). It would appear despite confusion around the initial reporting and chaos of the event that the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the Laws of Land Warfare and U.S. Law will be fully engaged in this matter. This action is entirely in keeping with agreements between the U.S. Government and the Government of Afghanistan regarding status of forces.
It is important to remember that while the Marines in question are being investigated for a response to a suicide ambush that was initially investigated and deemed “out of proportion to the threat…” under the UCMJ, U.S. and International law there remains the Presumption of Innocence.
Further the incident took place on 4 March 2007. Today is 24 April 2007. This is a period of 50 DAYS not weeks or months. This is a speedy pursuit of truth and justice.
-T