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Council,
My unit is scheduled to deploy within the next 60 days. I am trying to develop a series of classes and readings for the soldier level. What I am struggling with is what I want them to know versus what they will be receptive to and retain. Any resources the council can provide would be helpful. I'm looking for a broad spectrum of sources; video, short readings (excerpts, articles etc.) class suggestions. Your help and experience would be greatly appreciated.
Couple quick steps for you to take:Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategic LT
1. Send me an e-mail. You're FA, right?
2. Read the 3d ACR reading list COL McMaster came up with and I'm sure COL Bills added to.
3. Focus on security operations, sensitive site exploitation, bilateral engagement.
After the e-mail, I'll get in contact with you for more refined guidance.
I'll try to remember to share with you an example of the Marine Corps' Pre-Deployment Training Program (PTP). It is pretty well organized, and although I don't have access to all of the classes, it is a good starting point.
I'm perplexed though, are you active duty and deploying as part of a larger unit, or AR/NG and about to mobilize and fall in on a gaining force command.
Either way, why hasn't HHQ directed the tasks that your Soldiers need to be proficient in? Or has that guidance been poor?
j,Quote:
Originally Posted by jcustis
PM enroute to you....
j,
Not NG. (Read Profile) We are getting your standard stuff. However, I would like to expand and go more in depth. Appreciate any help you can provide.
I wouldn't bother using any of the standard directed PTP courses. If the Army's is anything like the Marine Corps', it's a joke. (And most of the Marine Corps' consists of Army classes) I've been thinking about this issue for a while. The issue is training high school kids in the graduate level of war, to use a cliched analogy. Are you going to pull a high school senior out of AP Biology and then give him a test from an M.A. Molecular Biology course? No. But that's what we need to do. I haven't really come up with an answer yet, although I think Mojave/Cajun Viper is a step in the right direction. I do know that Death by Powerpoint ain't it. The problem isn't just with young enlisted soldiers. You're one of the select few company grade officers that "get it." We can debate every aspect of COIN to the smallest intellectual minutiae and have a grand old time doing it, but until Lieutenants like you and me and NCOs that "get it" come up with a good way to engage those officers, NCOs, and nonrates, make them "get it" and make them believe in it, we're spinning our wheels.
I fortunately don't have to deal with it at the moment. I'm deploying with a MTT team in December and all of our enlisted Marines volunteered quite enthusiastically. They already get it. Good luck with yours.
So are you saying, Xenophon, that directing a Marine to know his IFAK, crew-served proficiency, and IED awareness, is a joke?
Remember, we're talking individual skills here, not collective stuff at Blocks III, IV and V. Have you been through a PTP rotation? While CLS training may be based off of Army precepts, I'm not sure where you can substantiate that the majority of classes are Army in nature. They may be joint, but by all means, they are definitely Marine flavored or at least should be driven by the commander as such.
I don't think anyone says you have to use death by Powerpoint. In fact, there is no better way to train IED awareness than to do it in the field, while moving tactically.
There is no substitute for UXO and/or IED/IEDD training. One cannot and does not train EOD from Powerpoint. It's hands on or death.
The courses from LE, Army, Marines and Navy are one in the same. 'bout time we realized that at the end of each day, we are still on the same team - Officers or NCOs, Army or Marines.
This is not a joke.
Parochialism is more damaging to us than AQ et.al. ever will be... :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan
Sumarize for me, if you will, your biggest issue. I'm not sure I "get it." Further, what's your proposed fix to the issue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenophon
Quote:
So are you saying, Xenophon, that directing a Marine to know his IFAK, crew-served proficiency, and IED awareness, is a joke?
Have you taken those courses? Do you really think staring at a computer screen trains a Marine to clear an M240 jam under fire? Or give a buddy a needle decompression under fire? Those things require muscle memory. Getting kids to care about media relations and big picture, war on terror adversaries requires involved leadership, something Marinenet takes out of the training process. Quality in training is being completely destroyed by expediency. The only saving grace of the PTP Marinenet courses is that the test is one question, "Did you view the course?", so the Marine can simply skip to the test, click yes, and not waste his time.
A collaborative effort by the PSGs and LTs in my unit have come up with a list of things they would like to accomplish so far.
CLS refresher.....scenario based
Land Nav....open terrain and urban (we will use Killeen)
Individual weapons refreshers
Crew serve weapons refreshers
Battle Drills
Convoy Trainer (Interactive trainer, uses tv screens etc.)
IED training....scenario based
none of which are COIN concepts, but your regular soldier skills
COIN Related
Region Orientation (Struggle with this, S2 related)
Culture training (We have an Iraqi Professor, very good source)
I will add to the list based on what I have seen here
Route and Area Recon
Bilateral Talks....scenario and classes(Both soldier and Leader)
What else?
Like some suggestions for simple reads for them. I would like for them to read The Ugly American, comments on that are welcome.
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken White
Those whose experience or knowledge base is only powerpoint deep scare me. I usually get out of their SDZ as fast as possible. It's like demo. There's the classroom calculations then there's the emplacement. If you don't know how to emplace the boom boom on the bridge, I don't care how good you are at the Sheffield Method.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan
Your last part is something I live every day. I teach at "The" Armor School. I have USMC, US Army, and other nation students in my classes. It isn't the US Army Armor school, it's The Armor School. My Devilpups do the same things the Army guys do. It's one team, one endstate - to win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategic LT
Reporting:
Contact Report
"Red, Red 1,
Contact,
East,
RPG,
OUT"
Spot Reports:
"Xray, Red 1,
Slant 4,
ES 123456,
Contact with 1 RPG team,
establishing support by fire position, maneuvering 1 section to western flank, over"
Hey RTK,Quote:
Originally Posted by RTK
Go Army !
Sorry about that :D
I'm often disgusted at hearing inexperienced people I know telling me they're (as an indivdual) ready, only to drop them from the courses we teach.
"none of us is as good as all of us."
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTK
Let It Rain !
Here's my question to you: What are you doing to raise the bar in your Devilpups' training? How are you enhancing their training experience?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenophon
I take issue with the highlighted and underlined sentence. It sounds as if The "system" is bringing you down, which, to be honest with you, is a pretty weak excuse. Here's a list of questions designed to determine training planning and strategy at your level. It should help you identify weaknesses within your own plan that you can affect at your level.
-What restrictions or parameters are being placed upon you as a leader that prevents you from conducting good training at your lowest organizational level?
-Further, if there are restrictions, what actions are you taking as a leader to counter those restrictions?
-What do motorpool operations look like in your unit? Is it four guys doing the work in the platoon while the balance talks about what they did last weekend? -How involved do your NCOs get in the training?
-How involved do you get in the training?
- How far out do you plan training?
-What guidance do you give them for individual, crew, section, and platoon collective training?
-Does the Company have a Mission Essential Task List?
-Have you determined the platoon critical tasks that support the Company METL?
-Have you conducted METL crosswalk to the individual task level?
- Do you have training themes for the month (ie. We'll work on individual tasks supporting the Comapny's Offensive METL task for the month of March)
-What is your training strategy to train your Marines/Soldiers at the individual level that will feed into the crew/section/platoon collective tasks?
Here's why I write this: I'm of the opinion that training management has taken a backseat in the last 5 years to the point where few remember how to do it anymore. This is one of those "if the shoe fits" catagories. If you've got sound answers to all of the above questions, then you're tracking well. If you don't, you're tracking like an aborted TOW Missle.
I see Stan in the area. Perhaps an old(er) NCO could give some good training management pearls of wisdom....
You are spot on with your comments on training management. Few commanders are doing it. The excuse you often hear is "there is not enough time, we deploy in only a 10,9,8,7,6.... months" What it really is, is piss-poor time management. I have been through two commanders and neither one of them were wizards when it came to planning training. As the XO this makes the my job even harder because I don't have the buffer built in that allows me to resource the training to the max. I have essentially resorted to driving training by getting resources and forcing the commander to plan training for it. Anyway, where was I.....Quote:
Originally Posted by RTK
Had to add an avatar, since the big guns were put on display!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan
I'd add that what many also fail to do is realize that not only can they train in theater, they must. You owe it to the kids to do that even though they'd rather you did not. I'd also point out that most of them can pick up the important things -- the critically important basics -- pretty quickly and integration instead of subject tackling is the key.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategic LT
You and RTK got it; training is everything is training and all that. :)
Welcome aboard LT !Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategic LT
And a nice one it is...Well done :)
I would like to recommend a book on this subject.
"Small Unit Leadership: A Commonsense Approach" by Col. Dandridge M. Malone. It is available at amazon including a look at the table of contents and a free excert. Go check it out!
Some of the posts on here are almost the same conversations that take place in the book. Especially the list of Questions RTK posted. It is Vietnam era oriented but still very good. This book has also been on the IACP (International Association of Chief's of Police) list for years.
Also RTK has previously reported about vacuum cleaners in Slapout. This is completely false!! we could never get them to work on our dirt floors so they have been banned.:wry:
My complaint isn't about the system bringing me down. Like I said, the required Marinenet PTP courses are easily bypassed so no unit training time is wasted. I advised Strategic LT to do as such. The quality of the Marinenet training is a tangent, the point is: prac app, prac app, prac app. To expect the Marinenet slide shows to produce effectively trained Marines is simply ludicrous, the only way to ingrain the covered skills is through effective, practical unit training. Since Marinenet does nothing to contribute to this, subjects covered by Marinenet need to be retaught by the Marine's unit. Teach it once as a unit, reinforce as needed, and don't waste time staring at a box.Quote:
I take issue with the highlighted and underlined sentence. It sounds as if The "system" is bringing you down, which, to be honest with you, is a pretty weak excuse. Here's a list of questions designed to determine training planning and strategy at your level. It should help you identify weaknesses within your own plan that you can affect at your level.
As for my team, I can't take credit for it since I'm not in charge but we just finished up DMOC. Who would you rather have working on your injury in a fire fight? My Lance Corporal and I who did a real life surgical tracheotomy on a live patient in less than 90 seconds yesterday or a soldier or Marine who cycled through Marinenet First Aid slides in between games of solitaire and repeated viewings of break.com videos
I think in your disdain and contempt for Marinenet you missed jcustis' point. It's the tasks that are important, not whether or not Marinenet is used. The bottom line is are your Marines/Soldiers trained properly for success on the modern battlefield? And at the end of the day did you aid in their training or impede it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenophon
PTP is the same thing as FORSCOM training guidance; a list of mandatory classes before deployment. That's what jcustis was talking about, not the damnable computer program.
Xenophon,
I have a simple answer for you. If your leadership is directing that Marines absorb PTP training through Marinenet classes alone, then they have failed. Plain and simple. Although Marinenet has become the host of a wide range of training, there is nothing in the TECOM PTP order that says Marinenet is the primary source of training.
If your command made the courses mandatory, then yes, they chose expediency over effectiveness. I think you're looking at the PTP through the straw of your unit's choices. Although Marinenet is a resource, I know of no units that are using that resource alone. There are still many Marines and contractors running basic platform instruction, which is exactly what my soon-to-mobilize unit will leverage off of. Marinenet doesn't factor into the equation at all, beyond annual training requirements.Quote:
My complaint isn't about the system bringing me down. Like I said, the required Marinenet PTP courses are easily bypassed so no unit training time is wasted. I advised Strategic LT to do as such. The quality of the Marinenet training is a tangent, the point is: prac app, prac app, prac app. To expect the Marinenet slide shows to produce effectively trained Marines is simply ludicrous, the only way to ingrain the covered skills is through effective, practical unit training. Since Marinenet does nothing to contribute to this, subjects covered by Marinenet need to be retaught by the Marine's unit. Teach it once as a unit, reinforce as needed, and don't waste time staring at a box.
EDIT: Ok, I'm tracking that your issue is with Marinenet and you misunderstood my post. I was referring to the breakout of required training that the PTP order lays out. RTK was on point.
I have the book. It was a good read. I haven't looked at it in a while. I will check it out. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by slapout9
You're not an Army National Guard unit are you? Why are you redoing TTPs and basic skillsets everyone about the rank of E-1 already should know? If your SOPs aren't set 60 days before deployment, I don't know what to tell you.
You and your peeps have been there before, right? Or at least you've participated in NTC, JTC or some other advanced field exercise on conducting COIN in urban areas?
A great deal depends on where you're going. If its Anbar or Diyalah, there are skillsets and intel you will need that are inherent to those climes and places. If you're going to Baghdad or thereabouts, there are things you will need to know about that.
Theoretically, you have a forward party either participating in the departing or moving unit's RIPTOA, right? What does the advanced party think you should brush up on?
Your S-2 by now should have some idea about the place you're going. This will include a detailed ethnographic study of the tribal, kinship and clan-based structures of the population that depends on you for security and upon which you will depend for information and assistance.
As a LT, I imagine your role will be no higher than that of the platoon commander. As a platoon commander, if you haven't been to Iraq then you need to discuss this issue with a more senior officer who has conducted a competent COIN there, or one of your own more senior NCOs.
They will be the first to tell you that the more Arabic language and cultural skills you embrace now, the better you will be when you get to Iraq. How much Gulf or Iraqi Arabic do you know? Do you at least have a phrase book? Have you brushed up on the etiquette necessary to not completely alienate kinship leaders in your AO when you get there?
Has the 3-shop sent to you detailed paraphrases of the AAs left to your unit by the previous commander and his staff? If you will be working jointly with other service's units, such as USMC CAG, has the forward sent you the previous two CAG or PRT reports on their operations?
If your battalion (or another) has rotated there before, there should be a series of saved op ords (probably, inevitably, in PowerPoint). See if you can get a hold of those so you can see how other operations went down.
If you're not going to the same, or a similar AO, then your advance party should have requested some sample operational documents to look at. Ask your S-2 or your CO if he's seen anything like that.
Your 2 also probably has a list of every tribal and kinship leader in your likely sector, not to mention all the BOLOs you should be worried about. He can send it to you as a scanned document on AKO. Memorize it.
What will you be doing in OIF? Are you infantry? Scouts? Medical? Convoy escorts? REMFs?
Each speciality will require its own unique skillsets. If you're bound for an infantry placement, go over and over again the SOPs you've developed for operations out of your COP. Think divide the pie room clearing, detainee processing, et al. Ensure that every member of your platoon can easily transition to do the job just above and just below him. Stress weapons maintenance and complete proficiency on all aspects of crew served weapon operations.
If you're a convoy escort, you can't do too many reaction to IED drills. Build up that muscle memory. Understand how you will treat casualties and destroyed vehicles. Make sure that you, too often, are the casualty. Make Ensure that EVERY member of EVERY vehicle understands how to operate the radios and BFT. If you've never been in a complex attack, go through every possible contingency for SAF, IED/EFP/Mine, RPG, mortar, et al, attacks in all their various forms.
Assume, always, that there will be casualties. Assume that casualty might very well be you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcustis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategic LT
These are all refreshers, not initial training.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategic LT
Man alive I didn't think there would be so much criticism for opening up a subject like this. I am just trying to tie up any loose ends and add a few more things to our kit bag before we go. I don't want to be a jerk but I would appreciate subject areas to cover and not ridicule for a unit you know nothing about. I apologize if I made it sound like we haven't been preparing, nor has our higher command been feeding us requirements. I will be more clear next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by soldiernolongeriniraq
I don't think he's redoing anything, so before we lay out the linear ambush and pile on, let's get some things in order.Quote:
Originally Posted by soldiernolongeriniraq
StrategicLT is doing what a good leader does: Making sure his "i's" are dotted and "t's" are crossed before he deploys and getting an azimuth check from those who have BTDT.
The training management tangent was a pet peeve of mine. This was as good an entry point to cover it as any.
I've dialoged with him on AKO with a WARNO to bring it to SIPR. He's got what he needs and will do fine in theater. It never hurts to double check.
You're doing what you should be doing and apparently doing it well. No apology is required of you. Keep on keepin' on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategic LT
Strategic LT,
You are doing what you need to do as far s the train-up goes. Your big COIN focus is that you are apparently preparing your soldiers to perform non-traditional artillery tasks which is good. The biggest thing that you can teach your soldiers at the platoon level are the following things:
Treat the locals with dignity in respect (sounds easy, until you are hot, tired, hungry, and IED'd) You and your soldiers have to understand patience and keeping tempers under control. That is a key COIN task at the platoon level.
Train and Educate your soldiers as how to discern the information pearls that come up from the people. You and your guys are where the proverbial rubber meets the road. You and your soldiers will become intimately familiar with an area and its people. You guys are going to be successful if you figure out how to judge what is a legitimate piece of intelligence and what is settling a grudge.
Most COIN readings focus on issues that are bigger issues than normally dealt with at the platoon level. At the platoon level, good TTP's are usually enough to keep yourselves safe, and to keep the "bad guys" heads down. The COIN spin is your interaction with the locals. If you and your soldiers understand the above two points you guys will do just fine. Good Luck.