Cumulative impact of low calorie intake and sleep deficit in combat

In a recent blog post, Bernard Finel takes the military, and government in general, to task for "a weird macho culture" where there is an assumption that "working more hours inherently boosts productivity." I agree that this assumption is not wise, but where I part ways with Bernard is where he critiques McChrystal's now well-known routine of 4 or 5 hours of sleep, lots of running, and one meal per day. He suggests that the impact of such a regimen may be on par with the impairment brought about by small quantities of alcohol.

He specifically states: "We essentially have a general running the war in Afghanistan probably with the impairment level of someone with 2-3 beers in him 24/7, actually worse since sleep deprivation is cumulative."

I disagree with this. My comment is excerpted below...

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When you are this immersed in something that you are obsessed with, fatigue becomes less of a factor in your ability to focus... If you legitimately think his routine is too much, I’d say there are thousands of other Officers pushing themselves much harder and, in hindsight, I don’t think it affected anyone’s ability to function.

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He doesn't seem to agree. Just curious what the thoughts are from the council. I'm guessing that many here have had similar experiences and that many had experiences more demanding than mine.

We have all had the occasional, abnormal experience - whether in Ranger School, in combat, or in some other odd circumstance - where we knew that we had not had enough sleep and we were pushing ourselves beyond a reasonable limit, but sleeping simply was not an option. I am not asking about extreme, short bursts of no sleep, no food, etc. I am curious about the long-term, cumulative effect of less sleep, less food, more strenuous activity, and heightened mental activity.

Do any of you look back upon your deployments and think, "boy, I thought I was thinking straight, but in hindsight, I was way too tired."

I recall extended periods (weeks/months) of getting no more than a few hours of sleep per night - often going for days without sleep. The only time that it impacted me, imo, was when I was doing something that I absolutely hated and had no interest in - like reviewing the document control register or inspecting the always-substandard 5988E's that my crews would pencil-whip. If it was a tactical task, my head was in the game - regardless of the cumulated months of less sleep, less food, etc.

Thoughts? Comments?

Just to be clear, it is optional to begin your comments with "no sh--, there I was..."

He should be judged by performance, not by the exploitation of his potential.


On the performance part; I think it's a terrible example. Leaders should lead by example, and sleep deprivation and unhealthy eating habits are terrible examples.
Not a single captain should have the opportunity to justify excessive strains by pointing at the unhealthy lifestyle of the theater commander.

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Originally Posted by Fuchs

On the performance part; I think it's a terrible example. Leaders should lead by example, and sleep deprivation and unhealthy eating habits are terrible examples.

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Agreed, but is 4 or 5 hours "deprivation?" The Army only owes each Soldier 4 hours. At least that is what I was taught. And is his diet "unhealthy?" It looked like he was eating some pretty good food when I saw him chowing down on CBS. It was one meal, but I didn't hear a calorie count or any mention of inadequate nutritional value.

Being a thin mid-50s aged male is something I can speak to from current experience. I find I can do quite a lot now with only one meal a day, and that includes 1.5 to 2 hours of quite hard exercise (save the wisecracks). I don't lose weight and don't feel weak nor do I think it affects my mental acuity (save those wisecracks too). That one meal is supplemented by eating little things here and there during the day, equal to less than an additional meal.

This I attribute to the normal effects of aging, one of which seems to be a reduced metabolism. Chicks don't dig me no more but I'm cheaper to feed.

As far as his need for such a short amount of sleep, that I would guess is just
an individual variation in sleep habit and need.

I do have very extensive experience with fatigue and how it affects performance, all who fly for a living do. Microsleeps on a tight instrument approach in bad weather, especially when you know it is happening and just can't get yourself to care much because you are so damn tired, are a bit spooky. Fatigue absolutely does affect your performance and there is not much you can do about it except get some sleep. The only effective way I have found to partially compensate is to recognize the symptoms and intentionally give myself greater leeway and not give myself greater challenges than my reduced capability can handle. Fatigue is an extremely serious thing.

I do want a clarify a point. I am quite sure that because of effective training, it is possible for people to respond appropriately to "expected" stimuli even when sleep deprived. I mean, that is the point of training.

But no one is trained to be a theater commander, especially in a complex enviroment like COIN. He needs to be able to constantly process new information and analyze it thoroughly.

Also... I gotta say, in every clip and interview I see of him, he looks like an automaton. Walking around from village to village saying, "what do you need? What can I give you?" and responding, "We're working on it, but it takes times" to every response.

In neither the 60 Minutes piece nor the NYT Magazine essay does it seem like he's actually processing much information. Just seems like he's on autopilot. I don't know him. Everyone I know who does says he's sharp as a tack, etc.

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

Agreed, but is 4 or 5 hours "deprivation?" The Army only owes each Soldier 4 hours. At least that is what I was taught. And is his diet "unhealthy?" It looked like he was eating some pretty good food when I saw him chowing down on CBS. It was one meal, but I didn't hear a calorie count or any mention of inadequate nutritional value.

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I think what Army leaders need to remember is that everyone's body has different sleep and nutritional requirements. GEN McChrystal may only require 4 or 5 hours of sleep a night. I know lots of people who only sleep that much on a regular basis and suffer no ill effects. Personally, I need 8.5 hours of sleep per night in order to not feel like garbage all day. 4 to 5 hours would make me an angry zombie.

Once, we were up for nearly 48 hours due to a little situation we got into. Around hour 44, I decided I had figured out a solution, walked up to my team leader, and proceded to explain my brilliant plan. What came out of my mouth was a bunch of nonsense, as I gathered from the way his face contorted in a mixture of confusion and anger, so rather than try to explain, I just walked away. :(

While many in the military would be relatively unaffected by a stretch of two or three days without sleep, I am definitely not one of them.

I had real old Platoon Sergeant tell all a GI needs is a cigarette and cup of Coffey now and then and everything will be fine. Hmmmm things have changed:)

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Originally Posted by Bernard Finel

I do want a clarify a point. I am quite sure that because of effective training, it is possible for people to respond appropriately to "expected" stimuli even when sleep deprived. I mean, that is the point of training.

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This is absolutely not true. You can not train people to function effectively when sleep deprived. They may perform effectively. They may not. It is the luck of the draw. What you can do is train them to recognize this fact, to avoid fatigue to the extent they can and know when they are fatigued and act accordingly. This is a huge thing in aviation because of all the smoking wreckage containing the cinders of tired pilots.

McChrystal's or anyone elses eating and sleeping habits are not among those few things. People are different, all have different food and sleep needs and all this foolishness about sleep deprivation is true but not an issue and is very much individual condition, experience, practice and metabolism related.

Carl is right that exhaustion kills and Intel Trooper is correct in noting that about 40 straight hours gets you to the point of non compos -- everyone's heard about Ranger students talking to trees...:D

Fuchs may be correct in stating that McChrystal is setting a bad example -- but I'm quite sure there are hundreds of 'leaders' over there setting far worse examples on many counts. A guy who sleeps little, doesn't overeat is probably one of the most benign bad examples I've run across. Not to mention that everyone in combat gets too little sleep and eats poorly --sort of goes with the territory.

That said, combat forces you to do without sleep at all levels from PVT to GEN; the body and mind adapt as best they can. Some do it well, some less so. It's a non-issue. Everyone adapts as well as possible and most get to the point where they can go 24-30 hours or so at a stretch without too much stress and can do that several times over the period of a week or so before they need an overnight sleep. It usually works out as things cycle. :wry:

Thus, to Schmedlap's question

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Do any of you look back upon your deployments and think, "boy, I thought I was thinking straight, but in hindsight, I was way too tired."

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my answer is Sure, several times in all of them. Not much could have been done about them, though. Until we do combat as shift work (not unthinkable...) we're going to have that problem but as Slap says:

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"...all a GI needs is a cigarette and cup of Coffey now and then and everything will be fine."

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That's still true. Unfortunate, not ideal, not even marginally good -- but then war is unfortunate and not an ideal situation and there's nothing good about it...

As for McChrystal and the automaton bit; Generals are people. People vary. Everyone doesn't make useless chit chat or idle comments answering inane questions at length without saying anything of substance (thank goodness!). Creighton Abrams was one of our better products, probably with Ridgeway the best post WW II type and he was not a chatterer -- his best line was "Generals should be noted for their silences." :cool:

Note lengthy answer with little substance. ;)

Something is badly wrong in his staff if a theater commander needs to work for more than 60 hrs a week.
He's the guy who is supposed to be shielded from micromanagement and administration annoyances in order to free up his mind for thought.


Eating only once per day is easily possible, but it's a really bad idea for performance, especially mental performance. His brain is only well-supplied a third or quarter of the day and is running on low supply the remainder of the day.

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Originally Posted by Fuchs

Something is badly wrong in his staff if a theater commander needs to work for more than 60 hrs a week.

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Needs to and does are different things...

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He's the guy who is supposed to be shielded from micromanagement and administration annoyances in order to free up his mind for thought.

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Totally agree. Recall however that survey after survey says Americans put in more hours at work than do most other nations in all fields of endeavor. It's a national affliction... :rolleyes:

We have thus developed a military culture of micromanagement and our Generals, unfortunately, are gauged not on their strategic strengths and tactical and technical competence (though most are at least acceptable in those area; a few are quite sharp) but on how well they micromanage. They do tend to get too far down in the weeds. That's a bit on the simplistic side but not by much... :(

I used to OPD this ARMOR Article from 1994 - still truthful to me. It highlights the scientific effects of sleep deprivation and correlates it with some historical battles where the mental exhaustion of the commander affected the outcome.

I'm someone that knows I need 7-8h sleep for best functionality.

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Originally Posted by "Rest for the Weary" by Captain Patrick Chaisson

As mentioned before, sleep depriva-
tion takes its heaviest toll on the
mind’s ability to process and evaluate
information. Those most affected by
sleep deficiency, then, are soldiers
who think for a living — fire direc-
tion center crews, radar operators,
leaders at all levels.

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and ...

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Maintaining the Initiative
Effective sleep management is a
combat multiplier. A commander who
can apply unrelenting pressure to a
weary foe will have the advantage.
Well-rested, mentally alert soldiers
fight better than troops who are ex-
hausted. Sleep management begins
with command emphasis — leaders
must set the example!
Those who regularly deny them-
selves sleep in misguided attempts to
prove their endurance will fail. The
smart field leader recognizes his limi-
tations and those of his men. Tech-
niques such as those described above
will allow our maneuver forces to
maintain the initiative even after
weeks and months of intensive com-
bat. In conclusion, remember that the
ultimate objective of sleep manage-
ment is to let us fight smarter so we
can fight harder.

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Originally Posted by slapout9

I had real old Platoon Sergeant tell all a GI needs is a cigarette and cup of Coffey now and then and everything will be fine. Hmmmm things have changed:)

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Lack of sleep cann affect your spellin an stuff two:wry:

Finel's right about the macho culture. How many senior NCOs and Officers do you know that stay at work just to stay. For what? They aren't working. It's so stupid. It's the same with the sleep thing. I knew a Major that was always the last out of the TOC at night and the first one there in the morning. He probably slept 4 hours or less. And you know what? He was an asshole all the time and didn't make very good decisions, nor could he remember anyone's callsign.

McChrystal is the commanding general. He could get 6 or 7 hours of sleep. Why doesn't he? Is that two more hours he is awake going to defeat AQ or the Taliban? No. It's a silly culture the "zero-defect" folks created in the Army to judge performance. Lame.

One meal a day? Does he smoke or dip? Then I would understand. If I can have some snuff, then I can operate off of one meal a day. Well, I need coffee too.

Looks like you are right, Slap.

We are better than we used to be at this but we still have a way to go...

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Originally Posted by jkm_101_fso

Finel's right about the macho culture. How many senior NCOs and Officers do you know that stay at work just to stay. For what? They aren't working. It's so stupid. It's the same with the sleep thing. I knew a Major that was always the last out of the TOC at night and the first one there in the morning. He probably slept 4 hours or less. And you know what? He was an asshole all the time and didn't make very good decisions, nor could he remember anyone's callsign.

McChrystal is the commanding general. He could get 6 or 7 hours of sleep. Why doesn't he? Is that two more hours he is awake going to defeat AQ or the Taliban? No. It's a silly culture the "zero-defect" folks created in the Army to judge performance. Lame.

One meal a day? Does he smoke or dip? Then I would understand. If I can have some snuff, then I can operate off of one meal a day. Well, I need coffee too.

Looks like you are right, Slap.

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McChrystal is a very highly accomplished, fit, middle aged man. I think he knows exactly what he, as an individual, needs to function properly; how much sleep, how much food. If he only sleeps so much and eats so much per day, I suspect he isn't doing that for show, but because that is all he requires.

Now, if he expected all his people to do the same that is foolish and he could be faulted for that. If he observed his people imitating him and didn't tell them to tailor their actions to their personal needs, he could be faulted for that too. I have no idea if he does either of those things.

This comment is about McChrystal's habits only. As far as the culture goes, I defer to you guys with the experience.

Here is a link to something called the Fatigue Avoidance Scheduling Tool-FAST.
It is a computer program that displays the relation between sleep, or lack thereof, and performance. It is meant to help schedule activities when those activities occur at odd hours or for long durations. The Air Force uses it I believe. It is quite illuminating to plug in the numbers and see how low the level of performance is after not getting enough sleep. I think it quite good.

http://novasci.ms11.net/

I think there is a very significant mental component to this stuff that is not accounted for in the equations and rules of thumb.

If I am doing something that I am interested in, then I can get completely immersed in it and lose track of time. There were occasions on deployments where our optempo increased to the point where I was continuously busy and stayed awake for days on end - not because I was trying to impress anyone, but because I had so much stuff to do, wanted to get it all done, lost track of time, and then suddenly realized that I was tired and it dawned on me that I hadn't slept in days. On the other hand, when I was a first year law student, I could have gotten 12 hours of sleep and still fallen asleep after 15 minutes of listening to my Contracts professor ramble on about the uniform commercial code.

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

I think there is a very significant mental component to this stuff that is not accounted for in the equations and rules of thumb.

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That may be true for certain types of activities and certain people. I've heard tales of programmers who can stay up for days as you did on the op.

For other types of activities, flying for example, no matter how interested you are in not crashing, there is nothing, nothing, that can make up for the lack of sleep.

I'm going a little off topic, but they say (and who is "they," anyway :rolleyes: ) that sleep deprived drivers are as dangerous as drunk drivers.

And one of the leading groups of sleep deprived drivers (perhaps second after truckdrivers) is.....cops. :eek:

I've never seen a study on this, and admittedly it's the stuff of patrol room legend, but it does sound reasonable.

I think it is somewhere in the FAST program, I'll have to look for it, but there has been work done that directly relates sleep deficits to BAC, short by x hours = a BAC of .04 etc.

A for tired cops, absolutely positively true.

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

I think there is a very significant mental component to this stuff that is not accounted for in the equations and rules of thumb.

If I am doing something that I am interested in, then I can get completely immersed in it and lose track of time.

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I got to thinking I heard that somewhere before regarding sleep deprivation among soldiers.

Turns out the U.S. Army Infantry School conducted sleep management and soldier readiness in 2005. Among other tips for leaders was...

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* Never put Soldiers in a position where they must choose between sleep and something else they would enjoy.

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Go Figure :rolleyes:

And, here's one for Slapout !

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If Sleep Loss Can't be Avoided:

* Use caffeine--drink the equivalent of two cups of coffee (~200 mg of caffeine) every two to four hours. Caffeine use as described above will help maintain performance even in the face of moderate sleep loss.

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My personal preference with a good smoke is a beer :D

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Originally Posted by carl

That may be true for certain types of activities and certain people. I've heard tales of programmers who can stay up for days as you did on the op.

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That happened to me when I was creating my website. There was a blizzard, road crews could barely keep up with the rate of snowfall to keep the roads clear, stores were closed, so I just brewed some coffee and went to work on the site at my kitchen table. I think I worked on it for 36 hours and then realized that I hadn't eaten or slept. Once I realized what had happened, I thought, "oh crap. Does this make me a computer geek?" I immediately went to the gym for 2 hours to atone for my geekery.

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When a group of officials came to see Lincoln about the rumors of Grant's drinking, Lincoln is supposed to have said, "If it [drink] makes fighting men like Grant, then find out what he drinks, and send my other commanders a case!".

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Same holds true for GEN Patraeus and McChrystal. I don't care what their preferences are just let them keep trucking.

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Originally Posted by slapout9

I had real old Platoon Sergeant tell all a GI needs is a cigarette and cup of Coffey now and then and everything will be fine. Hmmmm things have changed:)

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Wise words. What concerns me more today is soldier's are drinking Monster energy drinks during the day and using Ambien to sleep. That's not good. Better to stick with black coffee and nicotene.

v/r

Mike

My Platoon Sgt. second piece of wisdom was 8 hours wrapped up in a pancho liner on the ground in the rain does not equal 8 hours in the rack. Point being the quality of sleep and the environment has a lot to do with it. His words were a little more graphic but I think he had a point.

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Originally Posted by MikeF

Wise words. What concerns me more today is soldier's are drinking Monster energy drinks during the day and using Ambien to sleep.

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The only time that I got Ambien was when it was given out to the entire unit for the plane ride to Iraq in 2007, to avoid jet lag. Have you seen it handed it for more casual use?

In regard to the energy drinks, why are we buying that stuff and stocking it in our PX and DFAC in-country? I don't get it. (Of course, I have the same question for most of the stuff that I saw in the PX and DFAC - and for most of the amenities provided).

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

The only time that I got Ambien was when it was given out to the entire unit for the plane ride to Iraq in 2007, to avoid jet lag. Have you seen it handed it for more casual use?

In regard to the energy drinks, why are we buying that stuff and stocking it in our PX and DFAC in-country? I don't get it. (Of course, I have the same question for most of the stuff that I saw in the PX and DFAC - and for most of the amenities provided).

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Energy drinks- I saw that from direct observation. Not good IMO.

Ambien- word of mouth. Guys talking about taking uppers during the day and downers at night. Really bad stuff over a long period of time.

v/r

Mike

When I read the title, I was prepared for a smart-a** comment about ranger school. After reading the article and seeing that it doesn't apply, I won't. The Gen's routine doesn't sound ideal, but it hardly sounds dangerous. Reads like someone trying to make a story to me.
Reed
P.S. If there are so many rational individuals that understand that sleep deprivation is not something that can be "trained" for, why is there such rabid defense of Ranger school as it is?

bottle of Dextroamphetamine Sulfate 5mg in their Aid Bags. They were authorized to pass 'em out to the Troops in combat or on exercises for 'Go pills.' They were occasionally passed out in combat, never to my knowledge in exercises -- though the Medics always said they passed out a bunch on exercises and thus got a resupply for personal use or sale... :D

They also had Benzodiazepine, the forerunner of Ambien, for stop pills. Not much call for them, people had no problem getting to sleep. Tranquilizer so some probably sold 'em from time to time. :cool:

I guess in today's paranoid and PC climate they or something like them are both gone from aid bags. Or perhaps there but a well kept secret... :wry:

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Originally Posted by Ken White

bottle of Dextroamphetamine Sulfate 5mg in their Aid Bags. They were authorized to pass 'em out to the Troops in combat or on exercises for 'Go pills.' They were occasionally passed out in combat, never to my knowledge in exercises -- though the Medics always said they passed out a bunch on exercises and thus got a resupply for personal use or sale... :D

They also had Benzodiazepine, the forerunner of Ambien, for stop pills. Not much call for them, people had no problem getting to sleep. Tranquilizer so some probably sold 'em from time to time. :cool:

I guess in today's paranoid and PC climate they or something like them are both gone from aid bags. Or perhaps there but a well kept secret... :wry:

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytiy2...eature=related

I heard McChrystal say in an interview that he munches on pretzels during the day and eats a large meal in the evening (he said he was a very large LT). While a nutritionist will no doubt say you shouldn't eat a large meal before bed, McChrystal probably goes to sleep late and runs an hour every morning, thus offsetting that. As long as he is consuming sufficient calories it probably doesn't matter too much, given his active life style, if he gets those calories in one meal or spread over three.

As to sleep everyone is different and it is said that as you get older you need less sleep. I usually get 6 to 7. Any more than that and I actually feel sluggish the following day. It was said Napoleon slept very little, but was prone to taking power naps in the field.

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Originally Posted by Ken White

Back in the day, the Medics ALL had a 100 tablet
bottle of Dextroamphetamine Sulfate 5mg in their Aid Bags.

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Ken,
I think those were called "anti-fatigue" pills :D, and after 3 days you could smell them in the sweat.
SnT

an inclination to babble after about six hours... :D

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

The only time that I got Ambien was when it was given out to the entire unit for the plane ride to Iraq in 2007, to avoid jet lag. Have you seen it handed it for more casual use?

In regard to the energy drinks, why are we buying that stuff and stocking it in our PX and DFAC in-country? I don't get it. (Of course, I have the same question for most of the stuff that I saw in the PX and DFAC - and for most of the amenities provided).

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From my personal observations, the young Marines and Soldiers today are living on a steady stream of monster, rip it, red bull, whatever. When you're at a patrol base without power for days at a time, it's hard to brew coffee, so the energy drinks are the way to go. Not the perfect answer, but when you have to stay up, you find a way.

Then, when you come back, they have to sleep, so they take ambien to get rest. I know my docs were getting a little of it from our higher HQ, but we got a ton of it from SF medics we worked with. Also, with non-prescription versions becoming prevalent, they can get it sent from home.

As leaders, we just have to be cognizant of what's happening and keep an eye on our guys.

S/F
Ben

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Originally Posted by Ben_0802

Then, when you come back, they have to sleep, so they take ambien to get rest. I know my docs were getting a little of it from our higher HQ, but we got a ton of it from SF medics we worked with.

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I don't dispute that it happens, but I question the rationale. If troops are so tired that they need coffee or energy drinks to stay awake, then doesn't it follow that when their work is done, they should be exhausted and able to fall asleep without ambien? None of my medics had access to it, let alone considered handing it out. I don't think we were superhuman. I think that the availability of things like this increase the tendency for it to be overprescribed.

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

If troops are so tired that they need coffee or energy drinks to stay awake, then doesn't it follow that when their work is done, they should be exhausted and able to fall asleep without ambien?

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That depends on where in the circadian rhythm they are when they try to sleep. If they are in the wrong place they won't be able to sleep or will get very poor quality sleep. If their rhythm is all mixed up, the result will be the same. It is a very difficult problem.

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Originally Posted by carl

That depends on where in the circadian rhythm they are when they try to sleep. If they are in the wrong place they won't be able to sleep or will get very poor quality sleep. If their rhythm is all mixed up, the result will be the same. It is a very difficult problem.

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This is, admittedly, anecdotal, but my experience was that our routines were necessarily so random that it was impossible to develop a rhythm. Most of the time, when I stepped outside of the windowless CP of our patrol base, I wasn't sure whether to expect to see daylight or darkness unless I had just checked my watch. I've also never been awake for two days and then thought, "gee I should get some sleep, but who can fall asleep while the sun's up?"

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure it's applicable in an environment where schedules are so erratic.

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Originally Posted by Ben_0802

When you're at a patrol base without power for days at a time, it's hard to brew coffee, so the energy drinks are the way to go. Not the perfect answer, but when you have to stay up, you find a way.

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I can see the kids on energy drinks -- most of 'em will not thus far have acquired the coffee habit. However, no power = no coffee? :eek:

A lump of C4 on the bottom of a canteen cup will fix that. Or one could forego a nice to have but not totally necessary $300.00 Suunto and buy one of these: LINK, or put some Diesel in a can full of sand... :D

In 2005, a large attack on our patrol base knocked out our generator and we didn't have any power for our CP for about a week (other than a tiny backup generator that was just barely sufficient to power the radios). Without coffee, I was starting to really drag ass after a few days - not necessarily due to insufficient sleep, but rather due to an over-reliance on coffee. After returning from a patrol on day 5 of no coffee, I slumped down behind my desk and started poring over the always-substandard 5988E's that the crews had pencil-whipped. One of my NCOs stepped in, slapped a box of Marlboro Reds on my desk and said, "sir, you look like you're dragging ass. Let's go light up." We went outside and split the pack, chain-smoking the whole thing.

My understanding is that the first time someone tries a cigarette, it is an unpleasant experience and it takes at least a few days before they smoke more than one or two in one sitting. That half-a-pack chain smoke was the first 10 cigarettes that I had ever smoked in my life. I was awake, but really felt like crap, afterward.

What's so difficult about making coffee without electrical power? :confused:

There's always a way to make coffee- that's why God made fire and the french press :cool:. As far as generators go, my back-up ran the radios and the coffee pot.

I should clarify my earlier comments. The new "Go" and "Stop" pills (Coffee, Redbull, tobacco, Ambien, etc) are necessary for many extended combat operations. What I failed to mention before is dependency issues. When guys are using them back in garrison (Ambien mostly to "Stop"), then that is not condusive to long-term health.

Obviously, I'm not a medical doctor, but I think that one of the post-deployment fixes is an aggressive PT plan coupled with healthy eating and relaxation techniques (surfing, yoga, rugby:D, whatever).

v/r

Mike

When on patrol, dump the MRE instant coffee packet into your lower lip like a wad of snuff.

Ignore the bitterness, let it dissolve, and try not to bounce off the trees. :wry:

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

This is, admittedly, anecdotal, but my experience was that our routines were necessarily so random that it was impossible to develop a rhythm. Most of the time, when I stepped outside of the windowless CP of our patrol base, I wasn't sure whether to expect to see daylight or darkness unless I had just checked my watch. I've also never been awake for two days and then thought, "gee I should get some sleep, but who can fall asleep while the sun's up?"

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure it's applicable in an environment where schedules are so erratic.

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That is where quality of sleep comes in. With an erratic sked, people can sleep some when they get the chance, but often not too long and not too well. It is something that in the situations you guys were in is a devilishly difficult problem. But it is something people should think about and do what they can to mitigate when they can.

It is a very big thing in aviation. Maybe that is because decreases in levels of performance are easier to detect and measure, and the people who pay the bills get upset if their machines get broken. When the Air Force was running the F-117s they used to go to extraordinary lengths to keep their people's skeds conducive to good sleep.

Aviation has taken a long time to get to this point however. In the past it was marked by the macho attitude that Reed mentioned in relation to Ranger school. Interestingly enough, that same macho attitude used to prevail (it may still, I don't know) in medicine when it came to interns and residents. 24 hours on, if you could catch some sleep great, if not tough. If a horrible case came in at hour 23.5 of a sleepless day, tough luck again. It's yours buddy. That is something to think about when the next time you go to the ER.

As has been noted, how much sleep an individual needs is very personal and it may be that the General only needs 4-5 hours of sleep at night to function. That said, many studies have shown that the average person needs at least 7 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period to maintain max effectiveness. We have all learned that we can perform with less sleep for a time, and how much less sleep and for how long is, again, very personal. When I was in Iraq for OIF V, I was working eighteen hour days, seven days a week. I made it a month like that before I realized that I just couldn't function like that any more. That means that my performance was probably sub-standard for at least a week before that.

The military has a number of myths about sleep that refuse to die out no matter how much research debunks these myths. The first, and my personal favorite, is the idea that you can train your body to need less sleep. Now, it is true that if you are fit and healthy then you will need less sleep than when you are sick or out of shape, but that only goes to a point. I have had many leaders who honestly believed that if you intentionally deprive yourself of sleep then eventually you will need less. After eighteen years of active federal service I have never trained my body to need less sleep. And yet, the myth refuses to die. Another myth is the idea that nicotine can keep you awake. Nicotine has no stimulant properties. It is a vaso-constrictor which can lead to a slight rise in heart rate and blood pressure but it does not do anything to ward off sleep. Any stimulant effects are largely psychological. And yet this myth also refuses to die.

SFC W