"My assistance is bigger than your assistance" ;)
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Originally Posted by
motorfirebox
...I mean, heck, by that logic, it oughtta be okay for you and me to invest in some Somali pirates. After all, piracy doesn't take any US involvement to get going.
Well, that's circular... :D
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In terms of lives and money? The fishers and, especially, the dumpers. (Even before you add, as I do, the lives and money lost to piracy.)
I can buy that / them. Who can argue with rectitude. It's a good state. Getting there however requires more than desire and good intentions, it becomes not an academic exercise but an effort in a tough and real world. Thus I have to ask:
How do you propose to do that and who should do it?
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I'm not. I'm accepting them because they make sense. I see that fishing is a large part of the region's income. I see activities that depress fishing in the region. I see piracy increase, and I see pirates talking about retribution for the activities which depressed fishing in the first place.
They do? Make sense? Not totally, I think. Do you have a large consensus on that?
Fishing is a part, large is highly debatable. Given the relative impacts of pelagic fishing as opposed to subsistence and minor market fishing from small craft, there is depression -- but the amount is slight. Of course you see Piracy increase as any activity that is relatively lucrative, provides 'adventure' and a sense of illegality to young, unemployed males and requires little training or investment is going to increase unless curbs are introduced -- lack of a functional society or governance means there are no curbs. You see them talking retribution, I laugh and see them talking trash -- and seeking a somewhat specious justification they know will resonate with some who will rally to their defense.
So who's correct -- thee or me? Probably the answer is somewhere in between. However and regardless, I strongly suggest you consider the fact that things outside the west (or even inside it for that matter...) are rarely as they seem. It is all too easy to presume that other societies and people think and want as do we -- one learns over time that is rarely the case.
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How in the world is rule of law--a concept which has been espoused by everyone from Confucius to Buddha to the Koran to the Bible to, well, any number of western luminaries--a western concept? Or judges, for that matter--again, you can find examples in China and sharia law, to name two that come to mind.
All societies have laws, all have judges in some form. Only the west uses the phrase and attitude of the 'rule of law.' Go most anywhere in the world and use the phrase and do not be offended at the laughter it draws. See also this LINK and pick almost any of them. Western usage is basically that said 'rule' protects citizens from their governments -- that just absolutely will not fly on most of the rest of the globe. You try it on most places and they will eat your lunch and your shorts...
Westerners make money so they can influence power through the rule of law; non-westerners grab power so they can make money and rule the law. If you heed nothing else in this discussion, remember that....
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That's too broad a definition to be useful.
Oh. It is, huh. Unlike these from an earlier post of yours:
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""The US has a habit of making problems out of things which are not its problem.
Using our various adventures in those regions as a template for westernity.""
Eye of the beholder, I guess? Your broad definitions have value, others do not? Heh. :D
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Eh? I'm not assigning evil intent. Selfish intent, in some cases--but not in the case of anyone posting here.
Not to anyone posting here; to the above mentioned US and "westernity" elements and all those earlier interventions of which you apparently disapprove. They were 'wrong' but your proposals are 'right'...:rolleyes:
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I'm not sure what you mean...when I post, I post to discuss. Otherwise I'd just say "I don't think we should limit our response to simply shooting pirates" and be done.
I see. It appears to me that your discussing tends to adhere to the 'my way or the highway' school of thought. To wit, your 'arguments' are all sound and thoughts in opposition do not pass your test of acceptability. That may not be true but that's the appearance. You seem to reject any suggestion or thought that does not fit you preconceived assessment or received wisdom regarding the piracy. Dismissiveness is not always its own reward... :wry:
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The reality of the situation in Somalia has no bearing on making an argument on a discussion board--even a discussion board with members who are, were, or will be directly involved in that reality. Given the caliber of some of the members of this discussion board, it could be... argued... that an argument here could have an effect on the reality in Somalia.
Possibly correct, however, my comment was directed toward the academic aspects of nice theory crashing into the harsh reality of Somalia, a place where a number of other theories are dead and buried. I said at the end of that paragraph: "It's reality and those who endeavor to implement any interference, no matter how benign are not going to be popular or insulated from reality."
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I agree to a large extent--ie, no "period". You can't come in and impose a solution and expect it to work. But you can assist with solutions. Ethiopia is actually a good example, here.
Assisting is good and I'm all for it -- however, excessive assistance breeds both dependency and resentment and thus can be counterproductive -- even dangerous. Good intentions abound but their list of failures is mind boggling. The fact is also that assisting is not solving, thus my period - it's pretty well valid.
It behooves one to be very knowledgable of the environment as well as rather careful what one does and how one goes about it...
Hat tips to Sam from post #45
Great link and sad story by Information Dissemination on Somalia
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Somali Pirates Evolve Tactics After US Navy Incident
The tactical agility of pirates has long been something worth observing.
It seems this took about a day.
Pirates in Somalia said Wednesday they are ferrying ammunition and men to the 30 hijacked vessels still under their control, and they threatened to kill more captives following the violent end to a hostage standoff that left four Americans dead.
Pirates once were believed to be disgruntled and financially motivated Somali fishermen angry that international trawlers were illegally fishing Somalia's waters.
Now criminal gangs dominate the piracy trade, and have begun systematically torturing hostages, including locking them in freezers.
"What we're seeing is that because of the business model the pirates have adopted is so lucrative that you're now getting organized criminal gangs involved as opposed to fishermen who just decided to have a go at piracy," said Wing Commander Paddy O'Kennedy, spokesman for the European Union's anti-piracy force.
"Criminal gangs are more violent than your average fisherman who's turned to piracy," O'Kennedy said.
I think it's fairly clear we are in Africa !