Troops in Iraq allowed to drink beer on Super Bowl Sunday!

GEN Odierno is awesome.

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For One Night, GIs in Iraq Get a Taste of Home: Football and Beer
By Ernesto Londoño
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, January 9, 2009; Page A12

BAGHDAD, Jan. 8 -- Of all the missives the top U.S. military commander in Iraq has signed, probably none generated more cheer than the one issued this week authorizing all U.S. troops to drink beer.

Two catches: only two per person and only on Super Bowl night.

The waiver, issued Wednesday by Gen. Ray Odierno, marks the first time all American service members in Iraq will be allowed to break the ban on liquor in combat zones without risking being court-martialed.

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...=moreheadlines

Its sad when the only thing you have to celebrate is 4-hour ceasefire in the beatings.

We don't have to be an alcohol-fueled army like the ones that fought every war in the history of man prior to the first Gulf War; but there is no excuse for not having 2-beer a day ration for our soldiers to consume in the quantitiy and manner they choose, as reasonably controlled and supervised by their immediate chain of command.

Perhaps this is a chink in the armor of this long enduring travesty.

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Originally Posted by Bob's World

Perhaps this is a chink in the armor of this long enduring travesty.

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travesty of which you speak? Just idly curious.

the no alcohol policy

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Originally Posted by Bob's World

the no alcohol policy

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The long takeover of the Army by the Women's Christian Temperance Union?
:rolleyes:

As late as 2002 we were allowed to have beer @ Tank Table VIII following a successful qualification run. Then MG Sanchez in late 2002 prohibited drinking while training in Bavaria under any circumstances. My BN CO tried it anyway at our Jan 03 gunnery and got reamed for it.

I have a forever lasting respect for MG Zilmer and the USMC for allowing all the Army troops serving in 1 MEF to have 2 beers in celebration of the USMC birthday. It obviously has taken until 2009 for the Army to consider the same.

Hopefully the pendulum is swinging back some.

Not a particularly wise policy. It really needs a relook.

I recall no alcohol related problems in either Korea or Viet Nam. In the Dominican Republic, for three days, everyone drank beer when the erroneous word got out the rebels had poisoned the water... :D

The Table VIII tale doesn't surprise me, IIRC the same guy went into Kosovo, found the 82d had platoon leaders and even occasional squad leaders out being de facto Mayors of villages and doing a good job of keeping the peace, pulled them in, insisted on building the 900+ acre Fort Bonehead Apache (which was almost as dumb as occupying former Saddam palaces in Iraq IMO) and put out the diktat that all patrols would have a field grade accompanying -- and issued G.O. Number 1, no booze...

That is beyond travesty...

I don't think this would have been possible on any of my deployments, simply due to the logistics, unless beer is palletized like bottled water and there were a super special LOGPAC run on Super Sunday. It seems foolish to even ponder it - a special beer shipment to the FOB/LSA at least one day before Super Sunday. I am sure this requires guards and accountability procedures almost akin to arms room SOPs. Bn support platoon makes a special trip to receive it, unless it happens to fall on the day that they normally go to the FOB/LSA, then they bring it to the Bn. Unless there is a scheduled LOGPAC for that day from Bn to Co/Plt (generally not the case), then it sits at Bn and probably requires someone to guard it. When it finally does get sent to company/platoon, I suppose the guys on "red" cycle consume their 2 beers as they rotate off of guard duty. And the guys out in sector (strongpoints/ambushes/sniper recon/etc) - I guess we call them in early (beer first, mission second) or just let them drink it on the following day and don't tell anyone (especially not the General)?

Talk to someone currently serving in a staff billet in theater and I guarantee many units have tasked some Captain or Major to honcho this effort - to coordinate the special trip to pick it up, to figure out the distribution time/place/quantity, accountability procedures - this is a good solid 20 PowerPoint slides with lots of potential for flashy images, probably including 2 or 3 slides that have animations and at least 1 with sound.

This sounds like one of those ideas that some folks on the FOB cheer for, but the guys in the patrol bases and outposts react to in the same way that they react to "TGIF!" Seems like a morale booster for people who really shouldn't need one.

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

I don't think this would have been possible on any of my deployments, simply due to the logistics, unless beer is palletized like bottled water and there were a super special LOGPAC run on Super Sunday. It seems foolish to even ponder it - a special beer shipment to the FOB/LSA at least one day before Super Sunday. I am sure this requires guards and accountability procedures almost akin to arms room SOPs. Bn support platoon makes a special trip to receive it, unless it happens to fall on the day that they normally go to the FOB/LSA, then they bring it to the Bn. Unless there is a scheduled LOGPAC for that day from Bn to Co/Plt (generally not the case), then it sits at Bn and probably requires someone to guard it. When it finally does get sent to company/platoon, I suppose the guys on "red" cycle consume their 2 beers as they rotate off of guard duty. And the guys out in sector (strongpoints/ambushes/sniper recon/etc) - I guess we call them in early (beer first, mission second) or just let them drink it on the following day and don't tell anyone (especially not the General)?

Talk to someone currently serving in a staff billet in theater and I guarantee many units have tasked some Captain or Major to honcho this effort - to coordinate the special trip to pick it up, to figure out the distribution time/place/quantity, accountability procedures - this is a good solid 20 PowerPoint slides with lots of potential for flashy images, probably including 2 or 3 slides that have animations and at least 1 with sound.

This sounds like one of those ideas that some folks on the FOB cheer for, but the guys in the patrol bases and outposts react to in the same way that they react to "TGIF!" Seems like a morale booster for people who really shouldn't need one.

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I was thinking they could just get it from the Iraqis...

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Originally Posted by jkm_101_fso

I was thinking they could just get it from the Iraqis...

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I don't think that's an image that we want to project: beer swilling Americans swarming the local grocer for his booze.

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

I don't think this would have been possible on any of my deployments, simply due to the logistics, unless beer is palletized like bottled water and there were a super special LOGPAC run on Super Sunday. It seems foolish to even ponder it - a special beer shipment to the FOB/LSA at least one day before Super Sunday. I am sure this requires guards and accountability procedures almost akin to arms room SOPs. Bn support platoon makes a special trip to receive it, unless it happens to fall on the day that they normally go to the FOB/LSA, then they bring it to the Bn. Unless there is a scheduled LOGPAC for that day from Bn to Co/Plt (generally not the case), then it sits at Bn and probably requires someone to guard it. When it finally does get sent to company/platoon, I suppose the guys on "red" cycle consume their 2 beers as they rotate off of guard duty. And the guys out in sector (strongpoints/ambushes/sniper recon/etc) - I guess we call them in early (beer first, mission second) or just let them drink it on the following day and don't tell anyone (especially not the General)?

Talk to someone currently serving in a staff billet in theater and I guarantee many units have tasked some Captain or Major to honcho this effort - to coordinate the special trip to pick it up, to figure out the distribution time/place/quantity, accountability procedures - this is a good solid 20 PowerPoint slides with lots of potential for flashy images, probably including 2 or 3 slides that have animations and at least 1 with sound.

This sounds like one of those ideas that some folks on the FOB cheer for, but the guys in the patrol bases and outposts react to in the same way that they react to "TGIF!" Seems like a morale booster for people who really shouldn't need one.

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I will say I wrote the OPORD for our BCT to impliment the USMC birthday beer.

Yes, it had lots of admin and security implications along what you descibed.

However, It was very well received in the BCT. No one was unhappy after 11 months of deployment (with 4 to go) at getting 2 beers, extra LOGPAC or not.

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Originally Posted by jkm_101_fso

I was thinking they could just get it from the Iraqis...

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We actually had some Iraqi beer captured in OIF1 during a cache sweep. It didn't look that great.

For the USMC drink, they brought in Warsteiner and Heiniken, as I recall.

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

I don't think that's an image that we want to project: beer swilling Americans swarming the local grocer for his booze.

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I thought that maybe we could hire some "resourceful" Iraqis to deliver beer to FOBs, JSS, etc. I'm confident in their ability to make it happen.

Plus, we will help Iraq's struggling beer industry!

For the many times as I was offered booze by terps, jundees, contractors, local leaders, etc, I know it's readily available...

Something else to consider, the convoys with the beer in them would be the most closely guarded and safe in all of Iraq, safer even than the Green Zone. Need something safely delivered in Iraq? Put it on the beer convoy, Joe will make absolutely sure that it get there.

SFC W

Amazing the value of common sense/decency...

Causes me to remember how a good friend had two mini-bottles of Jack shipped in the mail and subsequently saved, so as to toast the birth of my first daughter in the middle of the Iraqi desert during Desert Storm.

Cheers Lew!

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Originally Posted by Cavguy

I will say I wrote the OPORD for our BCT to impliment the USMC birthday beer.

Yes, it had lots of admin and security implications along what you descibed.

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Count that among the reasons that I got out. No unit that I was in would have had the time, inclination, or spare manpower to jump through the hoops necessary to make this "morale booster" happen for the same reasons that I doubt this unit would have. On the contrary, it would have just pissed us all off that higher echelons would concern themselves with such foolishness when we're busy focusing on the mission.

Everytime that someone 6 degrees of separation away from the guys on the line came up with some bright idea that would be "good for morale" it was almost universally met with anger. For example, a Sergeant Major on one of my deployments who always seemed to have a fresh clean uniform and an interceptor that looked like it was fresh out of the plastic thought it would be a "morale booster" to pull a fire team away from our company for 48 hours at a time and send them off to a giant FOB to "decompress." Aside from the trip being a several-hour hassle each way, and aside from the unneeded additional strain that this put on an already undermanned and overtasked unit, one fire team did it and they were so disgusted upon seeing the Fobbit lifestyle that they requested to never be given such an opportunity again. Fortunately, the chain of command stepped in shortly thereafter and veto'd future trips because it was too much of a logistically intensive nutroll to justify. And they also realized that this was just an opportunity for 3 or 4 guys at a time to get a glimpse of the people who, instead of repairing their weapons and filling their supply orders, were going sunbathing and shopping for condoms and CDs at the PX. I am sure that Sergeant Major, afterwards, told his fellow FOB dwellers (over a relaxing dinner at the KBR DFAC) that he came up with an ingenious plan to assure the morale of the troops, but that it was quashed by some out-of-touch officer.

These gestures sound really neat in the palace that they're written in. But the message so often received is that the guy who wrote it is out of touch. I can envision how my Soldiers would have received the two-beer message: "wow, two beers. Should I drink one before I help the mounted crews change track on the Brads and then the other right before I head out for a 48-hour shift on a 3-man OP? Or should I shotgun both before I get my 4 hours of rack and hope that we don't get attacked for 30 minutes or so?"

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Originally Posted by Cavguy

However, It was very well received in the BCT. No one was unhappy after 11 months of deployment (with 4 to go) at getting 2 beers, extra LOGPAC or not.

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My hunch is that the farther removed from the flag you got, the less well received it was. But hopefully I'm completely wrong. If I were concerned about FOB morale, then I would push a beer night, too. It's probably the only amenity that they don't have. But for the guys in the PB's and COP's, numerous other options come to mind.

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

My hunch is that the farther removed from the flag you got, the less well received it was. But hopefully I'm completely wrong. If I were concerned about FOB morale, then I would push a beer night, too. It's probably the only amenity that they don't have. But for the guys in the PB's and COP's, numerous other options come to mind.

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True, but Super Bowl Shower Night doesn't have quite the same ring . . .

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Originally Posted by Ken White

I recall no alcohol related problems in either Korea or Viet Nam. In the Dominican Republic, for three days, everyone drank beer when the erroneous word got out the rebels had poisoned the water... :D

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You wouldn't have any special knowledge of how that "erroneous word got out," would you? ;)

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Originally Posted by J Wolfsberger

You wouldn't have any special knowledge of how that "erroneous word got out," would you? ;)

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I'd thought of it. :D

We heard it was a Navy Corpsman with 6 MEU...

The WaPo didn't get the full story. Stars & Stripes had an article on this back before Christmas. At the time, it only applied to MND-Baghdad. They followed up recently, with reactions from other units. From the sound of it, MND-B will be the only command allowing its members to drink beer. Even MND-Center soldiers living on the same bases as MND-B won't be allowed to drink. Luckily, I'm in Qatar for a pass, enjoying my 3 daily beers.

lift on the beer ban will only be in the Green Zone. :confused:

Don't worry. We're stoopid too. After happily conquering 2/3 of the globe (especially you...sorry about the White House again by the way) whilst blind drunk, we operate an all dry policy in both theatres, rather than the perfectly manageable 2-can rule which sufficed during the dark days of Northern Ireland and indeed the Balkans. God forbid we should treat the boys like adults. Countless Yes Men Lemmings will bleat that there are now no G1 discipline issues whatsoever on operations (2 legs baaad...4 legs good...). Of course they're wrong. I seem to recall 2 cleansing weak beers helped keep the demons at bay after a day of exhuming mass graves in Bosnia and Kosovo. Never mind! At least the Grown Ups get to swill the odd bottle of Red while 'entertaining VIPs'

I approve of the 2 beer policy as in keeping with the best traditions of Our Army.

Washington I know approved rum; essentially as a weather effects remedy and now I've read he also allowed beer. All from a man who forbade profanity.

I perceive that, even though GEN Odierno's policy has been extended beer will still be missing our base camp.

I'll let you know if it happens. I'm actually cool with the Bitburger etc. that we now enjoy from the NA Lager markets of the world.

I guess my question about the no alcohol policy and 'breaking' it for the Super Bowl is this:

Do you have to drink to have a good time? I mean, really, are you not going to enjoy the Super Bowl because there's no alcohol present?

I'm not saying adults shouldn't be able to drink, as long as they can drink responsibly. But to say they should have to have a beer, or that alcohol prohibitions are inherently evil under all circumstances certainly sounds like someone with a borderline addiction problem.

Interesting post on the logistics of Superbowl beer:

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Here is how it works: The people at the top said beer would be permitted only at Commanders’ discretion. Once Odierno said it was good then each MND Commander had to decide. Once they decided it trickled down to the Provincial level and finally reached us, about three days before I have to go and pick up 2000+ beers. It gets better. If, by chance, someone on my FOB doesn’t want one or both of their beverages the excess all has to be accounted for and then turned back in no later than three days after the Superbowl. To make the whole thing really convenient beers can only be consumed in the DFAC during the showing of the Superbowl which, I believe, is about 1am to 5am.

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For those who haven't heard, GEN Odierno extended the beer policy to everyone else in Iraq.:D All the Division commanders outside Baghdad weren't going to allow it, but he overrode them. As to how it will affect readiness? They're reshowing the game later in the day, to allow most others a chance to drink their 2 beers.

If getting joe some beer is really this big of a hassle, perhaps the problem is with those responsible for getting joe beer, not the policy of getting joe beer.

This truly is the bike helmet generation. I sincerely hope that officers at the lowest levels who have been degraded by such policies as no beer will pull their collective heads out and do something about it when they have the authority.

Those against this idea remind me of the major I worked for who would meekly allow some SF gaurd (that's Air Force, not green beanie) to inspect all our pax for ID cards instead of taking his word that his convoy was secure.

When I brought up that the gaurd has basically just insulted the hell out of his command and compentence, he became incensed with the policy and fired off a few hate mails. Probably to no effect. At least he is saved.

The point is that no man would allow another man to treat him this way, certainly without a great deal of bitching and kvetching. Our society has all but done away with men though, so the ranks are fairly quiet and accepting.

Hope I can remember this rant when I come into my "majority."

That unit's situation is due directly to our policy of not having doctrine defenses regarding pro-wire and claymores, something I ran into over and again in that country. Beer or no (in the case of that OP, no) we are always going to be prone to massive wave assualts. And I would take a drunk E1 with a good spread of claymores over a sober one without a single protective mine any day. Not that we have to choose, I just don't care for the red herring.

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Originally Posted by sapperfitz82

This truly is the bike helmet generation.

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It's always nice to know there are others out there... :cool:

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Originally Posted by sapperfitz82

This truly is the bike helmet generation.

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I just found my new signature, thank you sir!
Reed

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Those against this idea remind me of the major I worked for who would meekly allow some SF gaurd (that's Air Force, not green beanie) to inspect all our pax for ID cards instead of taking his word that his convoy was secure.

When I brought up that the gaurd has basically just insulted the hell out of his command and compentence, he became incensed with the policy and fired off a few hate mails. Probably to no effect. At least he is saved.

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That security guard doesn't make up ID-checking requirements on his own. Security (to include when and how ID's are checked) come from the installation/base/whatever commander or his/her designated representative. The SF guy was just doing his job by enforcing the current security posture and he insulted no one. If anything, the major insulted the installation Commander by complaining about his/her security measures. The reason there was no reply was probably because the guy was doing his J-O-B.

I've done basically the same thing. If there's some person I don't know in one of my classified briefings, I have every right, and indeed it is my duty, to ask for proof of the proper clearance, and I will ask. That's not an insult either. That's my job, and my authority to protect classified information does not get thrown away simply because someone happens to be a higher rank than me. This is often called "positional authority" and is separate from authority based on rank.

Obviously, in such cases, proper customs and courtesies must be observed and such positional authority should not be abused.

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Originally Posted by sapperfitz82

This truly is the bike helmet generation.

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AKA the Similic generation: in memory of the enzymes that made kids tough back in the day, kept them from whining, breaking bones, and being general pansies; enzymes that are present in breast milk but were left out of the chemical makeup of manufactured formula.

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Originally Posted by sapperfitz82

That unit's situation is due directly to our policy of not having doctrine defenses regarding pro-wire and claymores, something I ran into over and again in that country.

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Not sure if that's a policy or not. Granted this was Iraq, rather than Afghanistan, but we had claymores in OIF III. Lots of 'em. I remember it vividly because 3 months after we emplaced them, we were informed that we were not permitted to do so unless the - get this - the DIVISION COMMANDER personally improved their emplacement. No kidding, I had to draw detailed sector sketches (using Microsoft Paint) of every OP, strongpoint, and our patrol base, showing the detailed position of about 40 claymores (12-digit grids to each), orientation (in degrees), where the trigger mechanism(s) would be, and give detailed orders regarding when it would be detonated, and then email this up the chain to Division. Of course, I had nothing better to do, right? We were running a 24/7 graphic design and Kinko's office in that lovely, dust-covered patrol base. This small task was nothing in comparison to submitting individual award packets for each Soldier, for each CIB and service award, in triplicate (4 or 5 times because Bde and Div kept changing the standards).

Thankfully, two months later, the Division Commander graciously gave his warmest blessings for the emplacements (we never recovered them while awaiting his approval). Given the detailed information that he requested about the emplacements, I expected lots of changes to be dictated. But, apparently, our judgment was flawless. He did not direct us to change a single thing - not even turning a claymore one degree to the north or shifting it 2 meters to the east - nothing. This was very encouraging and reassuring to those of us who were insecure about our tactical competence. Had we detonated them prior to receiving his approval, I'm not sure how that would have been received. Thank goodness the General did not slough off a decision of such far-reaching strategic importance onto his subordinates.

Nobody ever questioned our use of concertina or pickets. I guess they were just assuming some risk in allowing us to figure it out for ourselves.

the British Forces in the Borneo Confrontation had to go to London to get specific permission to fire SS-11 Missiles form RAF Helicopters...

Too much peace time is bad for Armies...

Beats the alternative, tho' ;)

Well, maybe. :wry:

Every 45 days rated me two beers while afloat the USS Bataan in 2001. Say what you will about addictions, but those two drinks tasted like God himself sealed the can.

Baghdad, 2006: One of our units decided to mount claymores to the front of their Humvees. I think that fell in the good initiative, bad judgement category.

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Originally Posted by dusty

Baghdad, 2006: One of our units decided to mount claymores to the front of their Humvees. I think that fell in the good initiative, bad judgement category.

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Please tell me that you are kidding. Nobody could be that stupid.

SFC W

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Originally Posted by Uboat509

Please tell me that you are kidding. Nobody could be that stupid.

SFC W

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They seriously did it. I believe there were some individuals relieved over it, but it happened before I joined the unit, so my knowledge of the whole deal is extremely limited.

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Originally Posted by Uboat509

Please tell me that you are kidding. Nobody could be that stupid.

SFC W

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...I seem to recall a do not do this-type safety bulletin that went out actually earlier than '06 that had photos of the vehicles with claymores mounted......

I don't get it. Did the gunner have wire leading up to his turret, clacker in hand, waiting for the driver to run down enemy combatants and blast shrapnel at them? Were they going to throw a lighted rag over the hood and ram something? How does one attempt (successfully or otherwise) to employ a claymore mounted on the front of a vehicle? Were they trying to turn a HMMWV into a VBIED?

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

I don't get it. Did the gunner have wire leading up to his turret, clacker in hand, waiting for the driver to run down enemy combatants and blast shrapnel at them? Were they going to throw a lighted rag over the hood and ram something? How does one attempt (successfully or otherwise) to employ a claymore mounted on the front of a vehicle? Were they trying to turn a HMMWV into a VBIED?

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I too am stupefied by this action. However my mind immediately leapt to a similar experience. I personally do not discuss such things as might indicate friendly TTPs. End of that discussion.

FYI: look up M113 in wikipedia and look at the photo next to the paragraph headed: "Modifications for Iraq"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M113

It also refers thusly to my school of thought on the issue:
"Most of the M113s which are still in service have been upgraded. However, they are still lightly protected compared to modern APCs or IFVs such as the M2 Bradley or IDF Achzarit. Those larger vehicles cannot be transported in a C-130 plane so it may be argued that their capability to be air-deployed provides an advantage over more heavily armored vehicles. A fervent pro-M113 community has developed due to the versatility of the platform".

Quite agreed.

Coming back to the subject at hand; In my circle of acquintance here in OIF this "beer issue" is really taking off. GEN Odierno, who shares a hometown with my own unit, could have just won election to the presidency.

In any event he's now the most loved General of our time, based solely on my observations here.

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Originally Posted by Schmedlap

I don't think this would have been possible on any of my deployments, simply due to the logistics, unless beer is palletized like bottled water and there were a super special LOGPAC run on Super Sunday. It seems foolish to even ponder it - a special beer shipment to the FOB/LSA at least one day before Super Sunday. I am sure this requires guards and accountability procedures almost akin to arms room SOPs. Bn support platoon makes a special trip to receive it, unless it happens to fall on the day that they normally go to the FOB/LSA, then they bring it to the Bn. Unless there is a scheduled LOGPAC for that day from Bn to Co/Plt (generally not the case), then it sits at Bn and probably requires someone to guard it. When it finally does get sent to company/platoon, I suppose the guys on "red" cycle consume their 2 beers as they rotate off of guard duty. And the guys out in sector (strongpoints/ambushes/sniper recon/etc) - I guess we call them in early (beer first, mission second) or just let them drink it on the following day and don't tell anyone (especially not the General)?

Talk to someone currently serving in a staff billet in theater and I guarantee many units have tasked some Captain or Major to honcho this effort - to coordinate the special trip to pick it up, to figure out the distribution time/place/quantity, accountability procedures - this is a good solid 20 PowerPoint slides with lots of potential for flashy images, probably including 2 or 3 slides that have animations and at least 1 with sound.

This sounds like one of those ideas that some folks on the FOB cheer for, but the guys in the patrol bases and outposts react to in the same way that they react to "TGIF!" Seems like a morale booster for people who really shouldn't need one.

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In Baghdad, the Brit soldiers don't seem to have any trouble finding beer. The troops in the remote areas will figure it out if they are allowed to. Is there a western military besides the US that has such a restrictive no-alcohol policy?

I apologize for my typing faster than my brain. I do recall that the discussion with my major quickly focused on the policy not the gaurd. Some perspective, this was the third gate on the compound. Not that that matters much. The major's ID card is good enough for him, his word should be good enough for his convoy.

I was also on a convoy of LMTV's that was stopped at the front gate to Kandahar after we spent two weeks walking through and ten hours driving back from the mountains. The wait was very long (I don't recall how long) and every soldier had to show his ID. We did not all carry ID's because they have our SSN on them which would be bad were we captured by the Internet saavy jihadi. The tower gaurd looked on as we passed ID cards back and forth so the gate gaurd could see that we all had one. Not sure what this garrison policy will accomplish in combat ops. Again, if the ID card on the commander is good enough for him, why is his rank not good enough for us all?

Long way round, rank means little, adulthood means less, and manhood no longers exists.

I am not so fast to discount that M18A1 on the bumper idea. Properly constructed and shielded, the blast could be deflected out. In some situations, I could see that the claymore might be better than the alternative. Think Jessica Lynch and the human wave. I'll take the 1.25 lbs of boom outside the uparmoured vehicle over an RPG through the winshield or the human wave pulling me out (Blackwater in Fallujah). These men may have been ahead of their time a bit.

On the other hand...perhaps a few test runs at Aberdeen would have been prudent.

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Originally Posted by sapperfitz82

I am not so fast to discount that M18A1 on the bumper idea. Properly constructed and shielded, the blast could be deflected out.

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That's not a chance worth taking.

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Originally Posted by sapperfitz82

In some situations, I could see that the claymore might be better than the alternative. Think Jessica Lynch and the human wave. I'll take the 1.25 lbs of boom outside the uparmoured vehicle over an RPG through the winshield or the human wave pulling me out (Blackwater in Fallujah).

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First of all the human wave thing is rare. Lynch was captured after a prolonged running firefight. A claymore would not have helped her. RPGs probably aren't going to fired from inside the effective range of the Claymores anyway. In any case 1.25 pounds of C4 is still a fairly sizeable boom, paricularly when added to IED going off on the outside.

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Originally Posted by sapperfitz82

These men may have been ahead of their time a bit..

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Nah. Islamic extremist have been doing this for years.

SFC W

This is what could be confusing many from a distance.

M5 Modular Crowd Control Munition (MCCM)


The MCCM, a non-lethal variant of the Claymore munition, is the Army and Marine Corps' first non-lethal area coverage munition. It provides crowd control and force protection and temporarily incapacitates a large, hostile group without causing life-threatening consequences to the targeted individuals. This gives the field commander the option to apply non-lethal force as a first line of defense against aggressive noncombatants.

The MCCM is similar in appearance to the Claymore mine but is filled with 600 32-caliber rubber balls. It has an effective range of 5 to 15 meters with 60-degree coverage. MCCM is command control initiated and disorients and incapacitates targeted individuals for approximately 10 seconds.

And I thought we were too prudish when our Division Commander cancelled "two-beer night" in Bosnia and ordered all of the beer poured out...

http://www.sidewalklyrics.com/wp-con...10/ahvaz10.jpg

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These are photos from “the demolition of alcoholic beverages and obscene CDs” in Ahvaz/Khuzestan.

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See more of the gory photos at the Pedestrian blog.

That's so wrong, man.

Let us hold a min's silence for dear old Gordon and Co.