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I would like to have some information about the cuban pilots who fought in Zaire against Simbas.
Perhaps someone could help me.
Did they help to destroy simbas?
How many cuban pilots fought in Zaire?
Was that war a victory for Mobutu?
I heard Laurent kabila continued the war after 1967.
Did the cubans help to defeat Schramme and allies?
Hello Cuba and Welcome !Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba
The little that I read from Embassy Kinshasa archives in late '85 indicated that Cuban pilots flying covert-scheduled B-26s and T-28s were indeed effective against the Simbas in an "air support role" together with Moise Tshombe's exiled forces and 'white' mercanaries.
I'm aware of only 12 trained Cuban pilots (some of those were ex-Cuban exiles from the '61 Bay of Pigs operation !), but the material I read was rather stone age and shall we say 'skewed by the authors'. According to CIA records, only two B-26K aircraft ever made it to (then) Congo although the airframes were listed as Air Force 'stored equipment' at Hill AFB Utah.
I'm certain Tom can and will provide you with far greater details.
As time permits you, please take a moment and introduce yourself here.
Regards, Stan
Thanks you for the answer
I have found two interesting articles:
http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v2/v2n3/congo.html
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/a26_30.html
Stan If you have time you may tell Mr Odom if he may help with my doubts.
Cuba, great links...Thanks ! May I recommend Tom's "Dragon Operations: Hostage Rescues in the Congo, 1964-1965"Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba
I will PM Tom this evening with CC to you. Be prepared for a great ride through history !
Regards, Stan
Thanks Stan:
I have 2 questions for Mr Tom:I would like to know if cuban pilots attacked the mercenary chief Schramme in Bukavu,this happened in 1967.
And my final question:I read an Odom article,and he said:Mobutu army was defeated by cubans and MPLA in 1975.
I would like to know the Tom opinion about this Mobutu attack to Angola.
[QUOTE=cuba;44030]I would like to have some information about the cuban pilots who fought in Zaire against Simbas.
[QUOTE]
Look at these 2 books; I wrote both
LP 14 Dragon Opns
Shaba II
Yes but more in terms if intimidation. The Cubna ground troops had a greater effect.Quote:
Did they help to destroy simbas?
It was a victory for Tshombe and Kasavubu--Mobutu seized power aftrerwardQuote:
Was that war a victory for Mobutu?
1963-965Quote:
How long did that war last?
More or less amd mainly less. 1964 hangouts were still around when Stan and Iworked together, including Toma Kanza, Antoine Gizenga, and KablilaQuote:
I heard Laurent kabila continued the war after 1967.
No, not as far as I know. I believe that their CIA contract was up and they had left.Quote:
Did the cuban pilots help to defeat Schramme and allies?
Soundly defeated as in a route. I met one of the CIA paramilitary guys who advised the lead battalion as it approached Luanda. He said when the 1st Cuban 122mm shell hit the ground, he was suddenly alone and remained so until he walked back into Zaire. This was one of the US's most idiotic moves on the continent and in Zaire in particular It cmented the Cubans role in Angola. Proved--again--that the FAZ and Mobutu were criminally corrupt and inept. And led to 2 more wars in 1977 and 1978.Quote:
I have a final doubt I heard Mobutu sent his army to Angola in 1975 and that army was defeated by cubans and MPLA. Is this true?
Tom
Thanks Mr Odom,your answers were very interesting.
And I have read your articles,they are very interesting:).
Mr Odom,do you know or have you read any western or zairian source which explains the zairian defeat in 1975?
May you tell me the names of these sources?
I have found an interesting article about Zairian army in Angola,the article belongs to State Deparment.
I would like to know your opinion and (other people too) about it.
Do you think this article is true or false?
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/67241.pdf
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=16&gl=pe
Hello Cuba,
Col Schramme was not your every day mercenary. He was a ‘colon’ who had a farm. He started because the ‘round table conference’ hold no standing concerning the position of al the colons. He was not in it for the money.
You can find more in his book:
Le bataillon Leopard (souvenirs d’un africain blanc) col Jean Schramme
Cuban pilots? :D
[QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba
The FAZ was the Zairian military--and yes the lead battalion was FAZ.Quote:
That batallion belongs to Zairian army or FAZ?
They were defeated because they ran. They did not expect the Cubans and so the FAZ took off when the first Cuban artillery rounds came their way. That should not surprise anyone who has been around the FAZ; it would have been truly shocking had they not run.Quote:
Mr Odom,do you know or have you read any western or zairian source which explains the zairian defeat in 1975?
Yes, me. see also Dempster, Chris, and Dave Tomkins. Fire Power. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1980 which covers this episode.Quote:
May you tell me the names of these sources?
Well it is another case of the CIA getting it wrong as there were military incursions into Shaba in 1977 and 1978 (The Shaban Wars). Those incursions were mounted by the remants of the old Katangan Gendarmerie with Angolan (MPLA) and Eastern Bloc help, notably East German in 1978.Quote:
I have found an interesting article about Zairian army in Angola,the article belongs to State Deparment.
I would like to know your opinion and (other people too) about it.
If you mean authentic, it certainly appears soQuote:
Do you think this article is true or false?
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/67241.pdf
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=16&gl=pe[/QUOTE
Secret Cuban documents on history of Africa involvement
National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 67
Quote:
Washington D.C.: The National Security Archive today posted a selection of secret Cuban government documents detailing Cuba's policy and involvement in Africa in the 1960s and 1970s. The records are a sample of dozens of internal reports, memorandum and communications obtained by Piero Gleijeses, a historian at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, for his new book, Conflicting Missions: Havana, Washington, and Africa, 1959-1976 (The University of North Carolina Press).
Tons of intriguing links at GWU.EDUQuote:
In this first account of Cuba's policy in Africa based on documentary evidence, Gleijeses describes and analyzes Castro's dramatic dispatch of 30,000 Cubans to Angola in 1975-76, and he traces the roots of this policy—from Havana's assistance to the Algerian rebels fighting France in 1961 to the secret war between Havana and Washington in Zaire in 1964-65 and Cuba's decisive contribution to Guinea-Bissau's war of independence from 1966-1974.
"Conflicting Missions is above all the story of a contest, staged in Africa, between Cuba and the United States," according to its author, which started in Zaire in 1964-65 and culminated in a major Cold War confrontation in Angola in 1975-76. Using Cuban and US documents, as well as the semi-official history of South Africa's 1975 covert operation in Angola (available only in Afrikaans), this book is the first to present the internationalized Angolan conflict from three sides—Cuba and the MPLA, the United States and the covert CIA operation codenamed IAFEATURE and South Africa, whose secret incursion prompted Castro's decision to commit Cuban troops.
Thanks you for the information.
You wrote:The Cuban ground troops had a greater effect.
But I thought the cubans in Zaire were only pilots.
What did the cuban troops do in Zaire?
How many cubans were in Zaire?
Cuba
Some 200 ground troops as the 2 books I gave you links to say.
Tom
Hi Mr Odom:
Have you read the book of John Stockwell about the angolan operation in 1976.
Did he mention the zairian army in his book?
I heard there were british mercenaries with FNLA in 1976.Their chief was Callan.The bristish mercenaries were defeated by cubans and MPLA.
Do you know how many bristish mercenaries were in Angola in 1975-76?
Yes I have read Stockwell on Angola
That's why I have it in my endnotes for the Shaba II book.Quote:
Ibid.; Colin Legum, "Zaire," in Africa Contemporary Record: Annual Survey and Documents 1976-1977, vol. 9 (New York: Africana Publishing Co., 1977), B534-35 (hereafter referred to as ACR 76-77. For a firsthand account of the CIA operation to funnel money and supplies to support this war, see John Stockwell, In Search of Enemies: A CIA Story (New York: W. W. Norton, 1978). For a firsthand account of two mercenaries involved with the operation, see Chris Dempster and Dave Tomkins, Fire Power (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1980).
Let's talk rules of engagement here, Cuba. I appreciate that you are a student and that you have an interest in the area of Africa I served in and wrote about. I am flattered that you ask questions.
But if you want help, then you have to read what is offered. Most of the questions you have asked have been in the 2 books I suggested that you read. You have continued to ask questions indicating that at best you have scanned what I gave you.
I don't know how your professors react to this approach but here is mine. Read the books. Then ask questions. Otherwise don't ask me to answer questions I answered in the two books you have yet to read.
Tom
Hi Tom,How are you?
I read you article:
http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/car...dom2/odom2.asp
After the collapse of the Simba Rebellion and subsequent mercenary revolts, Belgium nearly lost its predominance in the Congo's mining industry.
So We can say that Simba rebellion was totally defeated by ANC and Tshombe.
But you wrote this:
Notwithstanding this declaration, the rebels continued fighting in scattered areas over the next decade.
I thought Simbas were totally defeated in 1965.
No we cannot; you said that.Quote:
After the collapse of the Simba Rebellion and subsequent mercenary revolts, Belgium nearly lost its predominance in the Congo's mining industry.
Quote:
So We can say that Simba rebellion was totally defeated by ANC and Tshombe.
The rebellion as a movement was defeated. elements of it survived and in fact are still present in the current Congo.Quote:
Notwithstanding this declaration, the rebels continued fighting in scattered areas over the next decade.
I thought Simbas were totally defeated in 1965.
Tom,thanks for the answer.
I have read that after 1967,Mobutu could control all the region.
But the region between Fizi and Baraka belonged to Kabila but Kabila was not a threat to Mobutu in that remote place.