US prosecution of arms dealers
I'm starting this as a new thread, although the issue has come up in a number of different threads where some discussion has summed to:
Quote:
(my paraphrase of the logic)
(1) arms are coming from the US and ending up in the hands of foreign nationals;
(2) the US has adopted the doctrine that it can intervene in foreign nations whose residents allegedly supply arms to our enemies; and
(3) the nations who are harmed by US armed sales should have the same right to intervene in the US, since the US does not take steps to halt those arms shipments.
So, there, we shouldn't intervene in foreign nations.
The factual fallacy in that argument (leaving aside the mixing of apples and oranges problem) is that the US has taken and does take steps to halt arms traffic from or through the US. Here is the latest case result.
Quote:
Syrian-born arms dealer gets 30 years in prison
By LARRY NEUMEISTER, Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, February 24, 2009
(02-24) 17:01 PST NEW YORK, (AP) --
A Syrian-born arms dealer was sentenced Tuesday to 30 years in prison for conspiring to sell weapons to Colombian militants while knowing they sought to kill Americans.
Monzer al-Kassar, 63, long suspected of aiding militants in some of the world's bloodiest conflicts, was convicted in November of conspiring to sell millions of dollars of weapons to militants in a sting operation. No weapons were ever exchanged.
U.S. District Judge Jed S. Rakoff said al-Kassar and co-defendant Luis Felipe Moreno Godoy, 60, had engaged in terrorism-related crimes that were chronicled with overwhelming evidence, including videotaped conversations. He sentenced Moreno to 25 years in prison.
"I think it's fair to say Mr. al-Kassar is a man of many faces," the judge said. "It is a tragedy that a person of his intelligence has spent so much of his life in activities that certainly weren't calculated to advance the human race."
A federal jury convicted the men of conspiring to provide aid and equipment to a terrorist organization, conspiring to kill U.S. soldiers, conspiring to acquire and export anti-aircraft missiles and money laundering. The charges required a mandatory minimum sentence of at least 25 years in prison. Rakoff said sentencing guidelines called for a life sentence for both defendants, but the U.S. government had agreed when the men were extradited not to seek the maximum sentence.
Both defendants proclaimed their innocence after the judgment.
That is a really good question...
One I've pondered for a long time. I put it down to becoming somewhat political instead of remaining totally apolitical.
The meaning is unambiguous; the wording is ambiguous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rex Brynen
As
the long history of the second amendment makes clear, its meaning is far from unambiguous. Moreover, constitutional rights are invariably subject to interpretations that change with changing social times (a process which, in my own admittedly liberal view, has tended to extend the rights of citizens on balance, rather than restrict them).
True on the change. I believe that the net effect is as you state, extension -- but that there have been a number of restrictions imposed on that uniquely American shibboleth, individual liberty, many of them unnecessary and in some cases detrimental to society.
The erosion of personal liberty builds excessive reliance on the state -- which can never do all the things it's political leaders promise. Never.
Quote:
Put simply, reasonable people can reasonably disagree on what the 2nd Amendment means. That doesn't make them Constitution-haters.
True but that does not excuse those on both sides of the argument who twist things and lie in an attempt to achieve their aims. My observation has been that while there are those on both sides who do that, the anti-gun crowd is much the worse of the two.
I'm missing your point ...
Quote:
from 120mm
The problem with the above statement is, that this issue IS all about the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution. Period. The "help the Mexican government control crime" legend is mere Trojan Horse-ism.
Please explain more fully what you're getting at - step by step.
I'm probably paranoid ....
but following your comment
Quote:
120mm
... they are forced to get their victories by indirect means ...
there are some post-9/11 executive orders out there, which could be used by the wrong crowd to do some very nasty things to US firearms owners. So far, that shoe has not dropped.
PS: SAF is the Second Amendment Foundation, not the Second Amendment Federation - a brain fart on my part.
But I thought the real threat was US firearm dealers???
http://www.latimes.com/news/na...mar15,0,229992.story
Drug cartels' new weaponry means war
Narcotics traffickers are acquiring firepower more appropriate to an army -- including grenade launchers and antitank rockets -- and the police are feeling outgunned.
By Ken Ellingwood and Tracy Wilkinson
March 15, 2009
Reporting from Zihuatanejo, Mexico, and Mexico City -- It was a brazen assault, not just because it targeted the city's police station, but for the choice of weapon: grenades.
The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.
Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.
The proliferation of heavier armaments points to a menacing new stage in the Mexican government's 2-year-old war against drug organizations, which are evolving into a more militarized force prepared to take on Mexican army troops, deployed by the thousands, as well as to attack each other.
These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.
"There is an arms race between the cartels," said Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government.
"One group gets rocket-propelled grenades, the other has to have them."
There are even more ominous developments: Authorities reported three thefts of several hundred pounds of blasting material from industrial explosives plants in Durango during a four-day period last month. Authorities believe the material may have been destined for car bombs or remotely detonated roadside devices, which have been used with devastating effect in Iraq, killing more than 1,822 members of U.S.-led forces since the war there began nearly six years ago.
The Mexican army has recovered most of the material, and there has been no reported use of such devices.
Grenades or military-grade weapons have been reported in at least 10 Mexican states during the last six months, used against police headquarters, city halls, a U.S. consulate, TV stations and senior Mexican officials. In a three-week period ended March 6, five grenade attacks were launched on police patrols and stations and the home of a commander in the south-central state of Michoacan. Other such attacks occurred in five other states during the same period.
At least one grenade attack north of the border, at a Texas nightclub frequented by U.S. police officers, has been tied to Mexican traffickers.
How many weapons have been smuggled into Mexico from Central America is not known, and the military-grade munitions are still a small fraction of the larger arsenal in the hands of narcotics traffickers. Mexican officials continue to push Washington to stem the well-documented flow of conventional weapons from the United States, as Congress holds hearings on the role those smuggled guns play in arming Mexican drug cartels.
There is no comprehensive data on how many people have been killed by heavier weapons.
But four days after the assault on the Zihuatanejo police station, four of the city's officers were slain in a highway ambush six miles from town on the road to Acapulco. In addition to the standard AK-47 and AR-15 assault rifles, the attackers fired at least six .50-caliber shells into the officers' pickup. The vehicle blew up when hit by what experts believe was a grenade or explosive projectile. The bodies of the officers were charred.
"These are really weapons of war," said Alberto Fernandez, spokesman for the Zihuatanejo city government. "We only know these devices from war movies."
U.S. law enforcement officials say they detected the smuggling of grenades and other military-grade equipment into Mexico about a year and a half ago, and observed a sharp uptick in the use of the weapons about six months ago.
The Mexican government said it has seized 2,239 grenades in the last two years, in contrast to 59 seized over the previous two years.
The enhanced weaponry represents a wide sampling from the international arms bazaar, with grenades and launchers produced by U.S., South Korean, Israeli, Spanish or former Soviet bloc manufacturers. Many had been sold legally to governments, including Mexico's, and then were diverted onto the black market. Some may be sold directly to the traffickers by corrupt elements of national armies, authorities and experts say.
