One of our many agreements while disagreeing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Entropy
Personally, I think there needs to be more "joint" not less. One of the biggest problems I see is not enough joint training, particularly between the Army and Air Force. I also wouldn't mind seeing most weapons development and procurement managed at the joint instead of service level.
I'll echo others remarks about the USAF and Joint training -- the AF position has always seemed to me to be our way or we won't play and they are totally lacking in flexibility. I've never had real problems coordinating training among Army posts or units, with the Navy or Marines. Compromises were made and things got done. However, doing that with the USAF has always been tedious and irritating-- and frequently unsuccessful, compromise is a word that the AF doesn't seem to know. I understand airplanes are expensive. So is a Rifle Company of 150 plus bodies...
That said, I agree that there needs to be more and not less. The question is how do we get there?
I strongly disagree with joint weapons development and procurement; DoD's current single manager approach to the procurement of most things is undoubtedly efficient and has saved the taxpayers some money -- but it also buys stuff that is frequently not fit for purpose. Competition and multiple sources produce multiple weapon types that make system defeat less likely. The American penchant for one size fits all solutions is militarily a very bad approach; the Army is bad enough with their reluctance to buy special purpose equipment for special units (That's a big part of the reason there is now a SOCOM). They're slowly growing out of that but not nearly rapidly enough -- the M4 Carbine debacle is a good example. Crass stupidity.
Given joint development and procurement there would be no F-22, only the F-35...:eek:
The thing tends to go in cycles
I recall times when the AF was being very accomodating - under Gen. Larry Welch. Still, we should never forget that the USAF was once the Army Air Corps and thinks we'd like to put them back in that box. (Now, maybe that's not such a bad idea;))
One area where we should do some joint procurement, IMO, is in combat uniforms. Is there any reason why Army ACUs should be different from USMC digicams, or why the USAF and the USN need their own version of a camoflage combat uniform?
Cheers
JohnT
We did that. The old OG 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John T. Fishel
...One area where we should do some joint procurement, IMO, is in combat uniforms. Is there any reason why Army ACUs should be different from USMC digicams, or why the USAF and the USN need their own version of a camoflage combat uniform?
Utility uniform was a DoD wide prescribed unigram. Worked. Was around from the late 50s until the late 70s. Cost about $20.00 a set. Then the Jungle uniform came in and the Army got approval from someone to go to the BDU and it all went downhill from there. Current uniforms run about $70-90, contract dependent. Camouflage band for the Helmet used to cost Nine cents, the new one with two useless luminous tabs sewn on costs over a buck...
Camouflage uniforms really don't work universally. They look sexy in garrison but in the field the OG 107 -- or better, a dark sage -- single color is harder to detect in most environments; all the 'flage patterns suffer from environmental specificity. Not to mention that the multi color dying adversely affects fabric durability.
Lotta things are far better today -- including uniform pattern (not fabric, uniform; pockets and such), a really big and valid reason for service specificity without even getting to the tanker / mech nomex or the flight suits -- and make sense. It costs more but to back off much would be to effect compromises of effectiveness and compromises themselves have a cost. No easy solutions.
"Jointery" raises some funny questions
Last month I spoke at our Command and Staff College ( a joint school) about the need for National policy for the conduct of small wars and insurgency. The presentation seemed to go well and the questions were quite benign (it was the lecture before morning tea...) until...
One of the Naval O4 students posed a question that was actually a statement. He queried why when I spoke about the issue of counterinsurgency that I took an "land centric' approach.
After reassuring the audience that there were valuable tasks for all of the joint team in the fight, ultimately I had to point out that most populations live on land.... I did conclude by reassuring the white suiters that when populations started to live underwater we would be guaranteed to start talking a whole lot more about the naval roles in COIN.
Unfortunately, the same thing is true of many who tout jointness...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William F. Owen
Personally to me, Joint means saving money and reducing effectiveness.
At least the first part is; they mean well but fail to realize that increased efficiency does not equate to increased effectiveness -- and that, frequently it can actually decrease effectiveness.
There are some benefits of increasing joint efforts and most who wish to do so are well intentioned but the big drivers have been just as you say -- an effort to save money which has, even if often inadvertently, adversely affected effectiveness in many areas.
There's nothing wrong with the concept, it's fine -- it's the implementation that counts and to let the Program and Budget folks drive ANY train is an invitation to disaster.
That's not counter insurgency, that's counter piracy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
selil
*Cough* Somali Pirates *Cough*
and it's been a naval role for centuries. So not COIN but COPI.
How are they doing on that nowadays, by the way... ;)
We rarely differ but this is one of the differs...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Old Eagle
Selil and Bill Moore raise some very interesting issues, and I for one am not ready to dismiss the issue of whether or not piracy is insurgency.
Seems to me that piracy is piracy and insurgency is insurgency. The DoD dictionary agrees:
Insurgency: An organized movement aimed at the overthrow of a constituted government through use of subversion and armed conflict.
Piracy: An illegal act of violence, depredation (e.g., plundering, robbing, or pillaging), or detention in or over international waters committed for private ends by the crew or passengers of a private ship or aircraft against another ship or aircraft or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft.
That does not mean that insurgents may not use piracy to further their goals nor, I suppose, does it mean that Pirates cannot be insurgents but the two still remain distinct acts.
Quote:
Nor am I convinced that piracy is a Navy problem; God help us if it is.
Oh, I dunno, they've been landing the Marines to take care of land based pirates around the world since 1801 in Tom's Barbary effort; dozens of landings from the Caribbean to Sumatra and even to Korea. Generally successfully. There've even been a few Naval and Marine officers court martialed for 'exceeding their authority.' ;)
Quote:
The topic deserves more and deeper analysis.
Perhaps. Probably deserves action at some point... :cool:
Is the definition too strict
Quote:
Originally Posted by
selil
I've thought that the definitions for insurgency have been to strict. A couple days ago in some prescient Odom channeling moment I was discussing the Barbary Pirates and the Somali Pirates and I expressed that these would definitely fall into small wars territory and likely insurgent activities. This was how the Marine Corps got into the business in some respects.
or do people want to expand definitions to include their pet rocks? :wry:
Been my observation that straightforward definitions focus thinking and amorphous terms encourage fog and groping. Contrary to popular opinion, all cats are not gray in the dark...
You bring up some great points
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ski
My one assignment (so far) to a Joint Staff led me to believe that Joint works very well in a garrison and/or CONUS based organization, but there are many challenges when people are deployed into a Joint Command/Staff that has been operating in a combat theater.
The problem, at least in my experience, is the people who are in the joint staff during wartime were not the ones who are on it back in conus for training or whatever. This leads to the very real problem you identify:
Quote:
I had two USAF and two USN personnel work for me, and to be frank, they were untrained for the job at hand (mainly because Astan is a largely Army fight). So in addition to actually having to work and lead, I also had to spend time training them on the most simple aspects of the Army.
When I say simple, I mean the difference between infantry units and capabilites, then the differences in organization from company through BCT level, etc...
When I was in the Navy, I was one of those guys who didn't know squat about ground stuff to include the basics you cited (I eventually learned them when I got to the AF). It simply wasn't a part of my training. I also was woefully ignorant of the Air Force despite the fact I was in naval aviation, which you'd think would directly translate. The problem you identify is huge, but I think the answer is more "joint" and not less.
The main problem I've seen (again, very limited anecdotal experience) is that many people on joint staffs (at least in the beginning) are so ignorant of how the other components/services operate that collaboration is very cumbersome in the beginning. Once the team finally figures things out the campaign is over or new people rotate in and the process begins anew. Not very effective, IMO.
It's important for me to note that I came to this perspective due to my experience spending a significant amount of time in two different services (Navy and AF). It's hard to overemphasize how valuable my Navy experience turned out to be when I got into the AF. Not only could I educate my AF brothers and sisters about the way the Navy does business; Naval capabilities, culture, mindset, etc., but it paid real dividends whenever my units did anything with the Navy. Being in two services really made me understand how ignorant most people are about the other services. That ignorance is not an individual service member's fault - after all, one can't expect them to know without training and exposure - but its a problem that hinders the combined arms team IMO. As part of the Air Force team, for example, I can't provide good support if I'm completely ignorant of the Army, even if I'm a genius on the Air Force. Such ignorance makes it very difficult for me to translate those Army needs into effective Air Force solutions. And the reverse is also true - an Army guy who's ignorant of the Air Force may not ask for support because he/she is unaware that it exists or believes it's not useful. When the individual members of a joint team understand what the others bring to the table and have a basic understanding of their mindset, lingo, capabilities, etc., then that team will probably be effective from the start.
As an aside, a big reason I originally came to this forum and why I still spend a lot of time here (more than anywhere else, practically) is because I want to learn about the Army and how you Army guys (and gals) think and do business (in addition to learning about small wars, of course). I've already learned a lot here and continue to learn more everyday, which is great for me personally and will hopefully pay more dividends when/if I go downrange again.
Quote:
I would like to see more true Jointness occur at the BN and lower level for both NCO's and Officers. Create a strong base of knowledge and expertise, and then allow these individuals to move up through the Joint world as they become more experienced and wiser. Would make a lot more sense than sending an 03 to a Combined/Joint Staff for the first time and asking "what's the difference between light and mechanized infantry?"
I agree, and the solution, IMO, is to educate officers and NCO's to succeed on joint staffs from the beginning. I would recommend a joint school where people can get "Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines for dummies" so they at least go in knowing the fundamentals. Additionally, it would be nice to have exchange tours, but that might not be practical and the service personnel systems would probably punish officers and NCO's for taking them.
Ski please explain further?
Quote:
I had two USAF and two USN personnel work for me, and to be frank, they were untrained for the job at hand (mainly because Astan is a largely Army fight). So in addition to actually having to work and lead, I also had to spend time training them on the most simple aspects of the Army.
Ski, this is not a failure of joint operations by any stretch, but it may be a failure of task organizing incorrectly. I really don't think Jet jocks, submarine skippers and surface fleet officer/NCOs need to be an expert on Army Infantry operations to be a valued joint partner. I sure as heck am not an expert on subsurface warfare, fleet operations, strartegic bombing operations, etc., but I can still function effectively in a joint HQs. Your example sounds like another example of trying to make something joint that doesn't need to be under the excuse of giving these officers "joint" experience, which is increasingly important for promotion.
In a major joint combat operation, one way to keep the chaos manageable is to make one component the main effort, thus the supported component, and other other components support as appropriate, the component that is the main effort can shift by phase or sub phase of an operation. To execute this you need the overall joint force commander and some of his key staff members to have a good grasp of joint capabilities across the force (so they can envision an overall concept, and also sniff out BS if one service is trying to sell the JTF some snake oil). However, the others need to be experts in their specific field/service, that expertise is what they're bringing to the table.
Joint planning and operations can get rather heated sometimes, that is simple human nature, especially for type A personalities that really want to see things done right. The process is generally one of give and take dialouge to get to an acceptable course of action, all the services educate one another on their capabilities and how they should be employed to best support one another and accomplish the mission. No one said it was smooth process.
Getting back to your example, why are Navy and Air Force officers planning infantry operations?